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Rape: new ways for a woman to say no



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Published Date: 19 December 2007
THE largest proposed reform of sexual offences laws in Scotland is unveiled today, raising hope that the country's historically low rate of rape convictions can be improved.
For the first time in Scots law, the concept of consent in rape cases will be clearly defined in statute. It will also be spelled out to judges and juries that a woman cannot be held responsible for an attack on her if she was so drunk that she was i
ncapable of agreeing to sex.

The Scottish Law Commission, which published the recommendations, said it was time to "clear up the confusion" surrounding consent, a fundamental issue in rape trials which is currently left up to jury members to define. Professor Gerry Maher, QC, who led the review, said: "The law has to make absolutely clear that, just because someone is very drunk, they are not consenting to having sex."

Campaigners hope the move will result in fewer cases in which a rapist is acquitted because the jury believes the victim was somehow to blame, either because she was drunk or had agreed to go home with him.

But with no proposed relaxation of the need for corroboration, they doubt whether these reforms will significantly drive up the rape conviction rate, which, at 4 per cent, is one of the lowest in the world.

Earlier this month, a survey of more than 700 potential rape-trial jurors found 40 per cent felt women contributed to an attack if they put themselves in such "risky" situations.

Prof Maher said the new definition of consent, which will require there to be "free agreement" for sex – and a list of real-life scenarios in which consent cannot have been given – would "send a warning" to men who think it is OK to "get a woman drunk" with the aim of having sex.

Under the proposals, seven different "situations" in which a woman cannot be judged to have given her consent to sexual activity will be laid down in law. They cover scenarios where a woman is intoxicated through drink or drugs, or has been threatened.

Prof Maher said: "To the extent there are social attitudes, for example women who are drunk are asking for sex or are in some way to blame, then we are sending out a signal. We hope that, by stating clearly what consent is and highlighting in law scenarios where consent is not given, juries will not bring their own attitudes towards consenting sexual behaviour.

"If we change social attitudes, clearly, that will have an impact on the conviction rate."

He said the changes were likely to lead to more successful prosecutions. "It's more likely to do that than if you leave consent undefined," he said.

"Take the scenario where women are so drunk, so intoxicated, that they reach the stage where they cannot consent. That will be spelled out, which will send a signal to people: if you are dealing with people in such a situation, you're on a warning that that person cannot consent to any sexual activity that takes place. The very fact of that will have, we think, an affect on social attitudes." He said spelling out in law real-life scenarios where consent would not apply was a "radical" move that he believed would encourage more victims to trust the legal system and come forward.

"I think it will," he said. "I think there is confusion caused by the fact that nobody quite knows what the law is. People can wonder 'was there consent to sexual activity?' One of the problems is that the complainer doesn't realise they have been raped. They think something wrong has happened, but they feel they have no recourse to legal remedy."

New crimes of sexual assault and sexual coercion, each carrying maximum life sentences, would also be created under the proposals. The latter could used against pimps and stalkers who terrorise women by sending them explicit sexual e-mails, letters and text messages.

A 200-page report published by the commission also proposes to sweep away an anomaly in Scots law by including attacks on men in the definition of rape.

But the commission is not proposing any relaxation in the rules surrounding corroboration in sexual offence cases.

The measures are expected to form the basis of a new sexual offence bill to be launched in the Scottish Parliament next year.

The Scottish Government said it would carry out a consultation on the proposals before publishing the bill next spring, but Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, agreed the current law on rape was "unsatisfactory, unclear and too narrowly drawn".

The commission looked at sexual law in other countries and had been impressed by the reforms carried out in Victoria, Australia, where a similar "free agreement" definition of consent had been adopted.

"It appears to have worked really well," Prof Maher said.

The report was welcomed by Rape Crisis Scotland, although the group said only a massive change in social attitudes would drive up the conviction rate.

Sandy Brindley, the body's national co-ordinator, said: "With only 3.9 per cent of rapes reported to the police in Scotland leading to a conviction, it is clear urgent action is required. It is simply not credible to argue that 96 per cent of women reporting rape are lying, therefore there are grave concerns that currently men in Scotland are getting away with rape.

"In this context, the Scottish Law Commission's proposals to clarify the law on rape, and on consent, are welcome. Rape is an issue which is surrounded by many stereotypes, misconceptions and often outright prejudice – only two weeks ago, Rape Crisis Scotland released the findings of a survey which found that 40 per cent of people blamed women for rape if we put ourselves in 'risky' situations such as going home with a man.

"It is therefore crucial that our law on rape is as clear as possible, to give a very clear message to society about what behaviour constitutes rape."

But she went on: "Law reform – while important – on its own, won't be enough to improve our dismal conviction rate for rape. We also need to make serious and sustained attempts to fundamentally change society's attitudes to rape, and to women's sexuality."

Mr MacAskill thanked the Scottish Law Commission for its "detailed and considered" report, and said: "The Scottish Government shares society's revulsion at incidents of rape.

"We are clear that this is a despicable crime and that those found guilty must be punished, and society protected.

"There has been considerable public, professional and academic concern that the current law on rape is unsatisfactory, unclear and too narrowly drawn. Equally, many other aspects of Scots law on sexual offences need modernising and require reform.

"Scotland needs a robust, modern framework of laws in this area, fit for the 21st century – a clear legal framework that ensures rapists and sex offenders are brought to justice and that victims have confidence in the justice system."

Court ruling that merely created more confusion

THE definition of consent in rape cases became mired in confusion following a high-profile case six years ago.

Ed Watt, a law student in Aberdeen, was acquitted of repeatedly raping a fellow undergraduate in her bedroom after the trial judge ruled that proof of the crime required evidence of physical force or threats.

The trial heard that he maintained the sex was consensual.

"She did not tell me to stop at any stage and at each stage I was asking if she minded going further," he told police.

But the complainer gave a radically different account to the jury.

She said: "I was saying, 'No, stop, I don't want this', but he just carried on anyway."

The ruling led to an outcry and the Lord Advocate referred the case to a panel of judges, who decided physical force was no longer required for rape to take place.

Rape now simply meant having sex with a woman without her consent.

But this raised a new question that has, until now, been left unanswered: How do you define consent?

Victims must be assured real protection

The long-awaited publication today of the Scottish Law Commission's Report on Rape and Other Sexual Offences provides a unique opportunity for an overhaul of some of the most serious offences recognised by the criminal law.

The question which will dominate the thoughts of vociferous critics of the current law is: "Have the Scottish Law Commission got it right?"

Do their proposals go far enough in the compromise between protecting citizens from sexual assault and protecting the rights of those accused of such assaults?

A number of their recommendations ought to be uncontroversial, for example the Commission's desire to adopt a gender-neutral principle where both men and women can be capable of offending and of being offended against.

What will almost certainly prove more controversial in the courts is the principle of sexual autonomy. This is where the deeply contentious issues around consent to sexual intercourse become the acid test of these reforms.

Consent to sex is proposed as "free agreement" and the draft legislation attached to the report sets out circumstances to illustrate where it will not be possible to argue that consent was freely given.

Despite the boldness of this proposal, it is not clear that it will be sufficient to deal with the following common situation.

A man accused of rape provides a statement to the police that "she consented". The woman denies this. There are no witnesses and little to corroborate either version. Although under the proposed regime the accused will have to explain why he reasonably believed the woman consented, it appears it may be sufficient for him to say, "I asked her, and she consented".

In situations where it is the complainer's word against that of the accused, her sense of duress or fear of retaliation inducing consent may not be evident. Of course, Crown counsel may be able to explore these issues with the complainer, and the jury will decide whom they believe. But the jury may never hear the accused's explanation in person and thus assess his credibility.

A recent research study for the Scottish Executive conducted by Professors Burman and Jamieson confirmed that it is comparatively rare for men to opt to go into the witness box. Instead, their police statement is presented to the jury, but there is then no opportunity for the Crown to cross-examine him on it, and no opportunity for the jury to observe his demeanour. In such circumstances one fears that a woman's sexual history could largely remain the focus of the rape trial. The proposals in this report are too important to let that happen.

• Fiona Raitt, Professor of Law, University of Dundee

'DRUNKEN CONSENT IS STILL CONSENT'

IT WAS a ruling that sent shock waves across the country.

Justice Roderick Evans instructed a jury to return a not guilty verdict after an alleged victim admitted under cross-examination that she was too drunk to remember whether or not she had agreed to sex. The judge declared at the end of the case that "drunken consent is still consent".

Professor Fiona Raitt, an expert in sexual offence law at Dundee University, said that, under the proposed reforms, a jury in Scotland should be allowed to consider the evidence.

"There would presumably be some evidence that the complainer was so drunk that she was incapable of giving her consent. The defence will undoubtedly dispute that, but the jury should be allowed to weigh up the evidence.

"But the problem of proving she was too drunk will remain."

THE 'RAPE SCENARIO'

1 The person has taken or been given alcohol or other substances and as a result lacks the capacity to consent, unless consent has been given earlier.

2 The person is unconscious or asleep and has not earlier given consent to sexual activity.

3 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she is subject to violence or the threat of violence.

4 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she is unlawfully detained by the accused.

5 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity".

6 The person agrees to the act because the accused impersonates someone who is known to the alleged victim.

7 The only expression of agreement to sex is made by someone other than the alleged victim.

LAW CHANGES

• Consent will be defined in law as "free agreement".

• Non-consent scenarios, such as a woman being so drunk she is incapable of agreeing to sex, will be stated in law.

• The definition of rape will become gender-neutral, so male rape will be recognised as such.

• An accused's insistence that he believed a woman consented will have to be "reasonably held".

• New offences of sexual assault, sexual coercion and rape against children and people with a mental disorder will be created.



The full article contains 2184 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Kipling,

19/12/2007 00:39:38
How will a drunken Scottish male understand that a drunken female doesn't want to sleep with him? Arrogance is part & parcel of that mentality. Surely not all these rape cases involve a sober male.
2

Maisie from Morningside,

morningside 19/12/2007 01:34:23
Who decides the woman was too drunk to give consent and how is this proved?
3

Archie, Gourock,

19/12/2007 01:36:13
Time for intercourse contracts, I fear.

At the end of the day, something had to be done.

I'm genuinely "stuck" with #5....

" The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity"."

His pecker wasn't as advertised in the pub??? She didn't trip the light fantastic all night?? No phonecall?? Fell asleep after it??

W O O L L Y

The "unless consent was given earlier" caveat in #1 and #2 also give cause for concern.

As stated, this needed a shakeup. Women got a raw deal. I don't know however if this is the best attempt at resolution that we could have hoped for.

As it is a crime of violence, you'd expect to see more of a slant towards same in the new legislation.

Categorised rape would have been a massive step forward. Brutal violent rape is not the same as someone who changes their mind 10 seconds before touch down. The former should carry life, the latter - well, who knows? It's surely not the same crime?

One question in my ramblings....

Can a drunken woman give consent to sex??? Surely if her consent can be construed as "Yes" then it can equally be construed as "No". This is an error from a jurisprudence perspective, effectively making all drunken sex, rape. This is a boo boo. It's the exact same legal argument as sex with the mentally retarded.

4

Guga II,

Rockall 19/12/2007 01:47:23
#1 has a good point. If the female was too drunk to remember whether she gave consent or not, and the male was too drunk to remember whether consent was given, is that rape? I wouldn't think so. Who is going to be believed? The female, because she is a female?

Also, what happens if the female, not too drunk, consents, then in the morning changes her mind? Who is going to be believed? The female, because she is a female?

Point 5 above is also a strange one:
"5 The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity"."

Eh? The nature and purpose of the activity, i.e. having sex, is, strangely anough, about having sex. How can you deceive anyone about the nature or purpose of having sex?

It seems to me that it is getting to the stage that men will have to carry around a consent form and get the female to sign it beforehand; though even then she could claim coercion.

Perhaps the men need to also carry around an audio recorder, and get consent that way. Or better still, video the whole episode. Though then he would probably be charged with making pornography. Still, if videoing things is good enough for the police, it should be good enough for men who are liable to be accused of rape because some female, for whatever reason, chenges her mind the next morning, or the next day, or even the next week.

Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with rape, and think any person that rapes another should be severely punished. However, this proposal tends to swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction, and could result in the proposed law being abused. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
5

,

19/12/2007 02:04:42
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6

Guga II,

Rockall 19/12/2007 02:54:36
#5 MacAlba. Good point. Anyone who falsely accuses, or fabricates evidence, to obtain the conviction of another, should be charged with corruption and perverting the course of justice; and should be liable to the same sentence that would have been imposed on the person they falsely accused or attempted to frame.
7

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 19/12/2007 03:50:40
Very amusing. Professor Gerry Maher, QC, who led the review, said: "The law has to make absolutely clear that, just because someone is very drunk, they are not consenting to having sex."

I wait, with 'bated breath, their Honours' attempts at defining what - precisely - "very drunk" means in Scotland.
8

somerferg,

oz 19/12/2007 04:29:46

Dear John (how appropriate) - "very drunk" in Scotland means the same as "very drunk" in Austin i.e. incapable of rational decision making because of excessive alcohol intake. I wonder if thats what was happening with you before you wrote your comment??
9

Yane,

Melbourne 19/12/2007 06:24:15
It seems to me that what this article & the law is trying to address is not the question of whether women have been attacked (& it does use that word early on) but the attitude of many, many people that if she was attacked, & she was drunk, then she was responsible — she put herself in a risky situation.
This is horrific.
10

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 19/12/2007 06:29:08
The drunks are too busy comitting murder to have any time for rape.
11

Purlie Wilson,

Melbourne Oz 19/12/2007 06:58:22
Without putting too fine a point upon it but my impression is that a drunken [if truly blotto] male has a "member" way too flexible to do anything but point Percy at the porcelain.
Rape of female or male for that matter is truly reprehensible. Alas rape has been going on since man learned to walk upright and 99% of the time simply stronger to impose his will.
I wish I knew the answer?
12

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 19/12/2007 07:01:56
Re somerferg (#8) : " "very drunk" in Scotland means the same as "very drunk" in Austin i.e. incapable of rational decision making because of excessive alcohol intake."

Sounds fair, but whose word have we for that, apart from somerferg's?

From the article: "The definition of rape will become gender-neutral, so male rape will be recognised as such."

That's very welcome. If two "very drunk" people then have sex together, will each of them have raped the other?
13

Samcafe,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 07:03:04
So, if a woman has sex with a drunken man can she be charged with rape?
14

ex katman 2,

x sudan 19/12/2007 07:10:01
Rape is repugnant but very hard to prove.Watering down or softening the law to achieve convictions is surely the wrong way to go about it.There is nothing macho about raping a woman and anyway i imagine a woman giving consent to sex does not mean she is giving consent to rape.
15

,

19/12/2007 07:15:41
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16

Lord of All Mordor,

Within Sight Of The Glorious Nokia River 19/12/2007 07:16:50
There should be specific prohibitions on questioning relating to underwear worn by young women - especially if it was not visible. One young girl has committed suicide as a result of the humiliating questions about her thong, and being forced to hold it up in court. One death like that diminshes us all.

I think this is the case but observed in the breach as they say: questions about a woman's sexual history should only be allowed if a man's past is detailed fully in court first eg past convictions etc.

17

Bryce Curdy,

Lanarkshire 19/12/2007 07:17:12
Identifying the problem is simple; the solution is far harder. Rape, by its nature, is usually one person's word against another's, and our justice system requires guilt to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. This does not explain why the rate in Scotland is the lowest in Europe. Lowering the burden of proof will increse convictions but at the inevitable expense of occasional miscarriages of justice. How many extra correct convictions justify a single incorrect one?

Introducing alcohol to the issue is a minefield. Obviously if a woman (or man) has a decreased conscious level then I think we can all accept that she/he cannot give consent. At the same time, taking the drink driving limit, for example, would be farcical. These two examples illustrate one of the problems here. As your blood alcohol limit rises, your decision making faculties steadily become more impaired, but how do you define the point where you can no longer give consent? There is a whole spectrum rather than only two possible states. Is there also a distinction to be made between people who actively consent while intoxicated from those who merely do not 'not consent'. What about a situation where the intoxicated individual makes the advances? This comes back to the woman who was too drunk to remember. Under the new proposed legislation I assume the arguement will be if she was too drunk to remember then by definition she was too drunk to consent and therefore the accused must be guilty. I can follow the logic but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with it. The detail will be crucial here although I fear the whole thing is unworkable.

18

Happyhibee1956,

19/12/2007 07:20:43
Looks and sounds to me a lesbians charter to get more chances for an inoccent man to go to jail.

And before any smart @rse says it yeah I know it will increase the chance of a guilty perp going to jail, but at what price?

Any?
19

Happyhibee1956,

19/12/2007 07:28:01
#5 & 6

Agree.
Good points well made.

However, There isn't a cats chance in hell of punishing said offenders as the womans groups, charities, etc wuould blow a Dutch cap if you tried to enforce laws for that type of crime as anti women and naming and shaming is defenitely a no no as they would argue less women would come forward to report a rape.
20

,

19/12/2007 07:35:49
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21

Boy Wonder,

19/12/2007 07:56:51
No should mean no, however it is is said.

And any man who has sex with a woman who is drunk is a first-class sicko who needs his head examined! Surely it would be like having intercourse with a dead body? What kind of a turn-on is that?

Rape is a criminal offence ... with NO exceptions! And the men who force themselves on to women should be castrated! And no ... not just chemically!




22

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 19/12/2007 07:59:28
#3 A pre-intercourse contract sounds OK until it is realised that one could be obtained under duress, or faked, or claimed to be either of the foregoing. Fact is that women and men tell lies when it suits them. Juries may have to decide betwen liars. I doubt that these new rules will see justice done.

#20. Dave has stayed on Barra too long. His comments are out of order.
23

Iain's,

19/12/2007 08:00:18
Is the defence for rapists to be "I was too drunk to understand the word 'no' said in a slurred way by a drunken woman"
24

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 19/12/2007 08:05:07
Rules

Go blow it out yer erse you self declared wannabe. You are the most out of order with your hyperbole and lies.
25

Yane,

Melbourne 19/12/2007 08:06:08
I've read all the comments from you blokes over the past year about rape & I know some of you are at the kiddin — an far be it frae me tae be a humourless feminist. Yet I have to say — if this is a sample survey of people's attitudes then I am in no doubt — there is a deperate need for radical cultural change.
All power to those trying to achieve it.
26

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 19/12/2007 08:20:14
Fortunately Yane, these people/us are not representative of the population at large as the Hootsman website attracts largely freaks and displaced persons.

The vast vast majority will undoubtedly agree with the above proposals as they have been stripped of all vestiges of free thought and free speach.
27

Sinnerman,

Another Planet 19/12/2007 08:24:54
I can see the purpose of the 5th scenario: this will protect those mentally incapable of understanding that it was a sex act. The "intellectually challenged" would be protected under this scenario.

Also, scenario 7 can be used to prosecute any "clients" using a woman who has be forced into prostitution. The consent is given by the pimp, not the woman.

28

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 19/12/2007 08:29:13
#24 Tut, tut Dave. Forgot to take your Ritalin today?
29

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 08:39:15
#21 BW, I agree, it was just what I was saying about the'
"free condoms for drunks" issue on here the other day!
If a girl is "to drunk" to NOT know what she is doing,
Why the "free condom handout"??
I would class that as '"Rape"
And lets face it! if the Guy was "too drunk", he wouldn't 'get-it-on' in more ways than one!
30

BK,

Cyberspace 19/12/2007 08:45:36
AS couple both get drunk and have fully consensual sex. Next morning one of the parties (probably the woman) has regrets and shouts "rape!" Witnesses say "but I saw you going to bed willingly with the man." She replies "but I was too drunk to consent." Justice? And could the man not equally shout "rape" saying he was too drunk and the woman took advantage of him?
31

Mong basher,

19/12/2007 08:47:07
When I first read this i had all sorts of concerns about the legal implications of people following the natural course of events while drinking. However rereading the points again those concerns dissipated. These are all pretty straightforward and practical issues and I think a good idea.
32

St. Helena,

Peebles 19/12/2007 08:49:25
The law is still an ass.
33

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 19/12/2007 08:57:27
28 Rules

No, I haven't!
34

thinking,

Scotland 19/12/2007 09:03:46
Surely, less drunkenness would lead to less rapes.
So, reduce the drinking.
It wouldn't solve all but would be a significant help.
35

Proud2Be,

Federation my erse!!! 19/12/2007 09:39:24
In Scottish Law whether a person is "drunk" or not is determined by the person making the decision. There is no legal definintion of it. This has been very well defined over the years in licensing related cases.

"Very Drunk" is simply an opinion that a person is more than just merely "drunk". It has no legal weight.

Therefore will it be up to the accused to decide if the complainant is "very drunk"? Or will we have people standing outside our pubs and clubs, paid for by the taxpayer, who will be on hand to make a determination, and provide certification, of ability to make consent??

I applaud the intention of this work however I fear the scope for significant interpretation may cause significant distress to genuine complainants.
36

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 19/12/2007 09:44:12
#34 that would solve a great variety of problems.
37

Harumph,

Harumphland 19/12/2007 10:15:29
If anyone watched the programme "The End of the World Cult" the other evening, you will then understand what No 5 means about "The person agrees or submits to sex because he or she has been deceived by the accused "about the nature or purpose of the activity".
In this cult the self-proclaimed "Messiah" consumates with anyone with whom God tells him to, much to his (the Messiah's) own discomfort. Yeah right. Those he has consumated with include his own son's wife and underage girls. All of these women and girls had been led to believe it was God's will that this happen. Now, I don't know about you, but even if these women agreed, and even though they seemed a bit odd to believe the bloke in the first place, the underage girls really didn't seem to realise what had taken place even though it was blatantly obvious to the documenter and probably every single viewer. Now that's what I call rape ...
38

Sassenach Observer,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 10:48:57
The problem with a law which says that someone was "too drunk" to consent (i.e. too drunk to be responsible for their own actions) is surely that it would have to carry over to other areas.

Therefore "I am not guilty of impaired driving because I was too drunk to be responsible for my own actions".

39

Sassenach Observer,

19/12/2007 10:59:44
"A recent research study for the Scottish Executive conducted by Professors Burman and Jamieson confirmed that it is comparatively rare for men to opt to go into the witness box. Instead, their police statement is presented to the jury, but there is then no opportunity for the Crown to cross-examine him on it, and no opportunity for the jury to observe his demeanour."

The accused's right not to give evidence in court should be abolished in all criminal trials. The factors above apply equally no matter what the alleged offence happens to be and it is better to apply an across the board change to legal procedure than to attempt to tamper with the presumption of innocence for offences where we think the conviction rate isn't high enough.
40

Kobi.,

19/12/2007 12:06:04
#35

Spot on. The view of a sheriff as to what is very drunk will differ from that of a copper which will differ from that of someone out on the lash. There is no legal definition, and there probably cannot be.
41

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 12:07:52
Most right thinking men are extremely careful when they are with a woman (and doubly so if she’s been out on the hit and miss), so there can be no dubiety anyway. If she is really consenting to intercourse then the man doesn’t have to do anything other than lie still on his back and allow her to prove quite conclusively that she’s consenting – if he’s passive, there can be no question about it at all. Follow the Riddler’s advice and you can’t go wrong!

However, these new definitions will weed out all the chancers who don’t know how to treat a lady like the Riddler – there’s not much you can do about some of the randy wee sods out there, but this law reform is surely a step in the right direction.
42

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 12:19:48
Difficult to comment on this... Apart from the fact that it is yet another excercise in trying to define the undefinable.

Previously the decision as to consent rested with juries---and that is the way it should stay. Contrary to popular belief, consent is not obective. It is subjective and should be dealt with as such.

All this new junk legislation will do is to put people on edge and give the potential route to take a sex session gone wrong to a whole new level. There are STILL going to be no witnesses to the actual event and as such there is still an element of doubt---something that cannot be defined out by lawyers.

As has been mentioned earlier, an innocent man's life can be ruined by a false acusation of rape. Should there not be more being done to discourage this potential malicious route? I like to think that I am a good enough judge of character to be able to avoid women who may later turn nasty in this way and hopefully I am. However, some men are no so fortunate.
43

Dorian,

19/12/2007 12:25:41
Why not also bring in legislation that allows bar staff to not serve women drink if they think that the woman could be drunk enough to get herself into trouble, that could mean one drink and no more. What about mandatory breathe tests for women before the are allowed into a pub or club, too drunk no entry, men are kept safe from false allegations.
44

Club Player,

Aberdeen 19/12/2007 12:32:52
The low conviction rate tells us 2 things in my opinion: 1. A lot of men are getting away with it and 2. A lot of complaints are either totally spurious or totally without fact.

The proposed reforms may do something to improve scenario 1, although they will more likely see an end to one night stands, with blokes opening themselves up to potential rape claims if they sleep with a girl who's had a couple of beers.

But what about scenario 2, where's the protection for the accused from malicious complaints etc such as anonyminity until proven guilty etc. The law should not be sexist.
45

,

19/12/2007 13:09:07
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46

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 13:10:37
49 cont.

Depending on the time it took the woman student to decide she really meant 'no' when she actually said 'yes' (and the woman in the case agrees that she did indeed initially say 'yes'), the punishment against the male student could be suspension from classes for a certain short period, or a suspension for the rest of the Quarter/Semester, or a suspension for the rest of the academic year, OR if the male student in question fights the whole affair, actually being 'stupid' enough to defend himself, denying his 'culpability' in such a 'rape', he could find himself EXPELLED.

Mind you, this does not include the fact that he could LOSE grants, scholarships, and any other public funding because of his 'crime'.

ALL those male students who are allowed to remain enrolled at the college university after such an ordeal, are REQUIRED to take re-education classes, lead by Rad Feminist professors, so that these 'criminals' will NOT 're-offend.' They are instructed that ALL men are potential rapists, because that 'desire' is inherent in the male psyche.

Am I kidding? NO, NO, and again, NO!!!!

This type of lunatic thinking migrated to the general public and folks, let me tell you that since your country has a much small population than does the USA, it will NOT take 5 years to migrate into the general population or law, particularly since it is STARTING in the general public and law.

You men had better make sure that you have your cell phones fully charged, and that they are equipped with a GOOD high end camera, that takes VIDEO and AUDIO. You'd better be prepared to get a FULL and PRECISE videoed CONSENT, prior to any intimacy.

Again, I am NOT pulling your leg.

This thing is really serious guys. Take a look at the rationale behind this new lunatic ruling: HIGHER CONVICTION RATES for RAPE CASES.

Nobody said word one about actually making sure that JUSTICE prevailed, they all want higher conviction rates.

Take a wild guess at how often women wil
47

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 13:13:55
50 cont.

Take a wild guess at how often women will be prosecuted under the new guidelines.

Does the phrase, 'hen's teeth' mean anything to you?

Unless some men's organizations comes to the fore, to ask such questions, file some suits preventing the implementation of such laws, some of you men had better get set to spend some time in prison.

Again, I am NOT joking.

Male Scots have just had their behinds handed to them and it's going to get worse.

Lastly, to give you some concrete evidence and incentive to keep yourselves out of prison, take the time to Google 'Date Rape' for various Universities in the USA, and then take the time to read the whole aspect of such cases; what happened to the student, the protocols of the unversities, etc.

Save yourselves a world of grief for what most certainly isn't worth the pain or lost years.

Cheers from the Rockies.
48

Anthony,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 13:19:42
In the article, it quotes "campaigners" as stating that the proposal will prevent acquitals because the jury thought the woman brought matters on herself for being drunk. But how can they know this? In Scotland juries do not discuss the case. Could it not be that the jury perhaps weighed up all the evidence and were not satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the accused was guilty? Perhaps the fact the woman was drunk didn't help when considering her recall of events? That would be an evidential matter, not something "campaigners" or misguided social-engineers should be interfering with. Rape is a disgusting offence. But I sincerely hope we are not going to see more vindictive sexual offences legislation, which seems to be based on little more than thinly veiled hatred of men.
49

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 13:25:15
Hello again,

I'd like to make one further notation on this issue.

It was more than a little telling that the 'Experts' which redefined the rules by which rape will be prosecuted, never bothered to really address the one sided assumption they had with which to start:

That only the male is culpable in real terms. While they provide lip service to the 'gender neutral' 'nature' of the new definitions, you'll note that 99% of the responsibility for determining the line between 'able to consent' and 'unable to consent' is held SOLELY upon the shoulders of the males.

Re-read the article if you think I'm wrong; the whole key theme of the article is to jack up conviction rates of MEN (when was the last time you can remember a woman being convicted of rape?), while the underlying theme is that women are WHOLLY the victims, even when both the man and the woman were drunk.

Remind me again just how ethical, moral, or legal, it is to hold only one party liable for their behaviour, while completely freeing the other party of ANY responsibility for the SAME BEHAVIOUR?

Again, I ask you: When was the last time you saw a woman convicted of rape, and further, how man women each year are convicted of rape?

You men had better get prepared, because YOU'RE the ones being led down the Primrose Path.......all the way to Prison.

Cheers from the Rockies
50

Andrew D,

Brisbane 19/12/2007 13:40:54
I really dislike this rubbish.

If a man and a woman are drunk and agree to have drunk sex, the woman (note it is all presented as ways for the WOMAN) can turn around later and say "actually I was too drunk so even though I said YES I meant NO" and the guy goes to jail. Is the guy going to be allowed to the next day go "oh god what did I do sleeping with her, I hate her, she's a dog, she must have raped me"?

The nonsense that is this law is trying to fix a tangential and smaller part of the problem of rape in the legal system. The bigger more serious part is that the attitude used in defence of alleged rape is always that the woman lead the man on, or did you REALLY say no? Not that they were drunk. No means no, and we can't turn around and say that yes means no too or we're making a farce of... everything.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this but I know two females close to me who have been raped. Both said NO at the time, one trying to beat the other party off her and ending up with some serious bruises at the time. Both went to the police and both were told that it would be their word against the other parties. The policeman that spoke to the one who fought was even told that it might have just been rough sex they got involved with, explaining her bruises. (She ended up in counselling for a long time after that)

Tell me just HOW that will be changed by this very negative and unsafe new law?

Bad news.
51

dunnoony,

19/12/2007 13:41:54
the ideas of society about rape need to change. those 40 per cent who think somebody actually "contributes" to rape obviously should think again. are they indeed trying to tell me that ANYBODY wants to be raped? or would do or continue doing something which may lead to them being raped? anybody would stop doing whatever they do as soon as they become aware that their counterpart has the intention to rape them -if that could stop the rapist-to-be.
it doesn't matter what anybody wears (if a woman wants to streak then that still is no invitation whatsoever to rape her) or how they behave, there is no excuse any rape and never an invite for one.
what state is a society in if you have to restrict yourself from wearing say shorts in the summer because that may trigger an attack? or smile at a stranger because they may mistake this for an invite to sex? a very sad state indeed.
a no is a no. if somebody changes their mind and does not want intercourse anymore then this is a no and nothing else.
nobody deserves or wants to be raped and therefore rapists should be punished using the full force of the law.
52

Ayrshire Scot™ ,

19/12/2007 13:51:11
I am drunk all the time.

I better watch how I go.
53

Seaforth,

19/12/2007 13:55:40
56 Fake Ayrshire Scot™ ,

You are drunk? That explains your tedious and rather dull contributions, as well as your child-like decision to fake another contributor to this forum.
54

Boab,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 14:01:57
#49-51 And just how many men are in US prisons due to false accusations of rape, Neanderthal? Show me a statistic, please. Is it even in double figures for the whole USA? How many college students were expelled? Five, perhaps?

Men commit rape, not women, so they need to take the responsibility that the sex is consensual. I welcome these proposals.
55

Seaforth,

19/12/2007 14:05:44
Anthony, Glasgow,

I'm not sure I agree that this is hate of men. Put simply, we have some of the lowest conviction rates for rape - and they have fallen through time. Now, either men are on the whole raping fewer women, or, Lawyers have worked out how to place enough seeds of doubt and get around the law i.e. the present law is inadequate. I am willing to accept that crime rates rise and fall, but there are always going to be men who will rape. I just don't think the figures reflect the situation.
56

Alexander Mac,

basildon 19/12/2007 14:07:48
The "To Drunk Issue" is scary. I agree with no 35...I do not believe that there is any other area where being "To Drunk" is an excuse. I.e. "I was drunk so I stabed him," "I was drunk so had a fight, I didn't know what I was doing." I believe that consent or implied consent has to be given however weather you are drunk or not should have no bearing on the validity of that consent....as some one said "the bloke may also be drunk"...In this case if the bloke is drunk is it OK if he rapes some one becasue he was to drunk to make a rational decision.....I think not....we MUST all be equal under the law or we are going to be going down a very slippery slope.
57

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 19/12/2007 14:17:20
Boab,

How about you do your own work, just as I've done?

I note that you can't address any of the pertinent points I've made, referencing the obvious double standard in culpability: men are held responsible for their actions while, drunk, whereas women are not.

How do you reconcile that inequity?

"Men commit rape, not women."?

Just why then did the Definers of the New Definition, STRESS that the new laws will be 'gender neutral'? They at least gave lip service to the idea, even though in practice, there shan't be any equity in how the law will be applied.

Go ahead and address the equity issues, the culpability issues, the moral, ethical, and lastly, the legal issues, of holding men to a different and higher standard than are women.

Your position smacks of anti-male hatred and most certainly self-loathing if you are a man. It also smacks of lack of spine, should you refuse to address the equity issues.

Either we're ALL held to the same legal standards, or we can do away with all laws and just let the Law of the Jungle prevail.

Cheers from the Rockies
58

The jurist,

19/12/2007 14:58:15
Free agreement to what? Penetration? Once, twice, to orgasm? To mutual orgasm? Must this be discussed with lawyers beforehand? Is sex on a par with some sort of surgical procedure, passively carried out on a patient? Surely the law and juries must be recognise that sexual behaviour generally occurs in an emotional cloud, not a calm lawyer's office. This is particularly so in the context of the 'date rape' cases. The offence should be based on a jury's objective view of the sexual freedom of all concerned and how they communicate their sexuality. Wreckless disregard for how one's behaviour might reasonably be interpreted, not a blanket right of denial for a woman, ought to be an objective issue for a jury. If the sexes are free and equal then each has duties.
59

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:17:50
46
Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

You’re quite right about how women can suddenly turn nasty for no apparent reason: I can’t think why none of my exes have a good word to say about me (that’s women for you!)
60

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 19/12/2007 15:18:39
Problem 1. What sort of sex is meant here? Actual penetration only? (And nothing else). Or others forms of sex under pressure as well?

Problem 2. As has already been noted. Are we all now never responsible for actions, sexual or otherwise, whilst drunk? Or is it just women who can make this defence?

Can of worms or helpful clarification?
61

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:23:25
#47 Dorian: the legislation is already in place to prevent bar tenders from serving alcohol to punters who have already had too much: I’ve never been refused myself (because I’m a seasoned drinker and so can hide it) but I know that others have been refused because they’ve had too much (I’m severely p*ssed just now, incidentally).
62

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:30:36
#48 Club Player: I know that I’ve been with a few girls who’ve gone out with me (for one time only!) and then find out that they can’t stick me. They could have started shouting rape if they’d taken a total downer on me, but fortunately they didn’t (does the law take a view on this, stick in your pipe, you highly paid (grossly overpaid lawyer numpties!)
63

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:42:13
49
Neanderthal75,

I just know that Franz Kafka would appreciate your post (ever heard of “The Trial” for the ill educated among you? I know that one ex took against me for no apparent reason and could have got me the jail, if she’d been that sick!)
64

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:49:52
50
Neanderthal75,

Quite right, women are out for what they can get: just the same as men: why should the fact that they are allegedly the weaker sex allow them to take it out on men!
65

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 15:59:27
#53 Neanderthal 75: you’re quite right: women get off with it, just because they don’t have the strength to commit the crime of rape. Why is this? Both sexes have exactly the same desires, as should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.
66

Name in Use,

Edinburgh 19/12/2007 16:11:50
"Better 100 guilty men walk free than a single inocent man convicted"
This is the principle our justice system is based on, and for good reason.

The fact that this means rape convicions are inherently going to be low is just something we have to suck up becasue the cost of anyhting else is just unnaceptable.
67

The Riddler 2,

19/12/2007 16:12:24
#56 Ayrshire Scot: at last! We have something in common, although I still don’t want Sctttish Independence (as drunk as I am just now!)
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:15:11
#55 Dunnoony

Agree with you. However, woman should try not to put themselves at risk unnecessarily.

Also, what you say applies equally to men. There have been cases where a guy has slept with a woman simply because he was drunk and she was insistent and sober. A woman that he would never normally have considered sleeping with. Should that guy report this as rape the next morning?
69

Sandi,

San Diego 19/12/2007 16:17:05
Is it any wonder that most women who are raped don't even report it? Even her in the US where the laws are rightly much stronger. All you "men" who have posted here, each and every one of you has/had a mother, some of you may have sisters, some may have wives. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

#64, women can be, and are, raped with objects other than a penis. Men can be raped, usually by other men, in similar fashion.
70

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:19:23
This is indeed very worrying, if you are a man. Yes, rape, when committed should be treated severly in the courts, but so should false claims. To my moind the women can reck a mans life with just popping into a police station and claiming rape. Now, if there has been sexual intercourse, how can a man defend himself! I recon he can't with this new legistlation.
How many peoole wake up in the morning and regret their actions the night before. All it takes is a bitter or regretful female to make a claim.
There will never be a full proof way of determining rape, unless it is obvious through injuries or witnessed, but as we all know usually there is no coroboration.
What not to do it just assume that the man is guilty. It seems that equal rights do not exist, if we didn't already know this.
Anyhow, real rape is disgusting and should be treated harshly, false claims should also.
71

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:21:00
Someone being intoxicated doesn't mean it is ok to have your way with them. And if people are so concerned this law will ruin their sex life, then you need to think twice about your sex life. Don't have sex with someone who isn't able to give consent, don't have sex with someone you think may call it rape, and don't rape anyone. Rape is the most underreported crime and most rapists go free.
Scotland is far behind... Not having these laws already...
72

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:22:17
#73 Sandi, a bit harsh to categorise all posters as shameful.
73

Anthony,

Glasgow 19/12/2007 16:22:49
(59) Seaforth - there are other possibilities. Perhaps the not proven verdict playing a role? Maybe more malicious complaints? Perhaps a crime being defined in a complaint as 'rape' but the complainer agreeing that what happened, even if still an offence, wasn't rape? I do genuinely share your concern though, if men are raping women and getting away with it, then it is hugely disturbing and unacceptable. What I am concerned about, is the increasing role of strict liability for convicting (mostly men) under the heading of sexual offences. Strict liability increases the conviction rate by use of a simple method - severely restrict the defences open to the accused. This can result in some really dreadfully wrong and unfair outcomes. Strict liability was supposed to only apply to lesser crimes, and was always taken into account when sentencing. Now its creeping into more serious offences, and this looks like it gaining a foothold in the crime of rape as well. Given that this extention of strict liability is restricted mostly to offences which men are charged with, I do believe we are in danger of having gender based legal apartheid in Scotland.
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:23:11
#75 busybee

What laws are you referring to?
75

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/12/2007 16:24:01
for your info we have always had laws against rape!
76

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:27:14
#73,
Yes, I have a mother and wife and two young girls. If I thought that any of them had been raped I would sincerely wish to kill the offender.
I do not think any males with comments here should be ashamned! any more than the female's comments.
For your information, unless the law has changed recently, the rape statute actually mentions the p@nis being inserted into the v@gina, hense males cannot leaglly be raped, sodomised, yes.
A woman who is 'raped' with an instrument other than the p@nis is not techniclally raped, sexually assaulted, yes.
77

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:27:27
All the real rapes should not be dismissed so that the very little minority of those falsely accused don't have to prove their innocence.
More than half of sexual assaults in the US go unreported, and in the US we already have these laws that Scotland is just now recommending.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html?PHPSESSID=487d406e495157235257233e16101b44
78

busybee,

California 19/12/2007 16:29:25
78 & 79, I'm actually speaking in reference to the article, about the concept of consent in rape cases.
79

Ken,

19/12/2007 16:33:40
#81
'the little minority..', have you nay figures to back that one up please! As 10% of cases ae proved rape, that means that 90% are not. Now even if the system is not right, surely there are one hell of alot of false claims, most of which can ruin a mans life, reck their marriage, lose them their job etc.
No one here has suggested that we dismiss the real rapes, by the way!
If more than 50% of rapes go unreported, how do you know?
80

Allan(handofgod137),

19/12/2007 16:40:17