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Catholic bishop hits out at 'gay conspiracy' to destroy Christianity

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Published Date: 13 March 2008
ONE of Scotland's most senior Catholics has launched an attack on the "gay lobby" in Scotland, claiming there is a "huge and well-orchestrated conspiracy" against Christian values.
The Rt Rev Joseph Devine, Bishop of Motherwell and president of the Catholic Education Commission, said gay rights organisations aligned themselves with minority groups, such as Holocaust survivors, to project an "image of a group of people under persecution".

He warned that the gay lobby – which he labelled "the opposition" – had mounted "a giant conspiracy" to shape public policy.

He singled out the actor Sir Ian McKellen, who was given a New Year honour for services to gay rights, pointing out that Oscar Wilde was locked up only a century ago for homosexual acts. The bishop said he would "not tolerate" the "behaviour" of a child struggling to come to terms with his or her homosexuality. Last night his views were attacked by gay rights groups, which branded them "unChristian" and "deeply out of step" with the views of ordinary Scots.

In the fourth of the Gonzaga Lectures held at St Aloysius' College in Glasgow on Tuesday, Bishop Devine said: "The homosexual lobby has been extremely effective in aligning itself with minority groups.

"It is ever-present at the service each year for the Holocaust memorial, as if to create for themselves the image of a group of people under persecution. We neglect the gay movement at our peril.

"I want to ask you if you are able to see the giant conspiracy that's taking place before our eyes, even if we didn't see it at the time. I take it you're beginning to see that there is a huge and well-orchestrated conspiracy taking place, which the Catholic community missed."

He went on: "In this New Year's honours list, I saw actor Ian McKellen being honoured for his work on behalf of homosexuals, when a century ago Oscar Wilde was locked up and put in jail. "It's a very small group of people, but very active and organised – and extremely indulgent. The opposition know exactly what they're doing. We don't."

Calum Irving, the director of Stonewall Scotland, said the bishop was "deluded", pointing out that the Catholic Church had much greater wealth and political influence than the gay rights lobby. He said: "So Bishop Devine has decided it's time to have a go at lesbian and gay people again.

"I'm flattered that the bishop thinks we could mount a 'huge and well-orchestrated' conspiracy, but he is much deluded. After all, which 'lobby' really has the greater resources and political access?

"Such a continued attack on gay people is distinctly unChristian and deeply out of step with the views of most Scots today. There is no war on Christianity – just the bishop's own fevered paranoia.

"I would defend the bishop's right to practise his faith and yet he would deny me basic dignity and respect. Worse, he appears to hanker after an age when Oscar Wilde was put in jail for being gay. Worse still, he seems to infer that gay people have no right to be remembered as victims of the Holocaust."

After Bishop Devine's lecture, entitled Sectarianism and Secularism: Bugbears for the Catholic Church in Scotland, one audience member asked how Catholic parents should "come to terms with a child's mission to become homosexual".

The bishop replied: "This must be a nightmare moment for any parent. There are many days when I'm glad to not be a parent. I would try to handle it with a degree of compassion, but I would not tolerate (it]."

Bishop Devine also cited the battles over Clause 28, legalising civil partnerships and same-sex adoption.

He said prominence had been given to the "supreme moral values of liberty and equality" replacing "truth and goodness" as supreme moral values.

Bishop Devine continued: "It was bound to result in state-sponsored morality at war with Christian values. We must resist being corrupted by secularism."

Asked about how Christians could influence politics, he commented: "It was once thought that the Labour Party was a Christian democratic party. Sadly, it's not that anymore. Certainly in terms of leadership, the SNP are much more responsive to us."

He vowed to fight on against the "forces of secularism". He concluded his lecture stating: "Like Mel Gibson, who said, 'I'm going to pick a fight', so am I."

A Holocaust Memorial Day Trust spokeswoman said: "Holocaust Memorial Day is about remembering all victims: be they Jewish, gypsy, gay or lesbian.

"The day is also about learning the lessons from the past, encouraging society to tackle all forms of prejudice, such as antisemitism, racism and homophobia."

A spokeswoman for Sir Ian McKellen said the actor was out of the country and unavailable for comment.

OUTSPOKEN CHURCHMAN

THE Rt Rev Joseph Devine is no stranger to controversy.

Last year, he dealt a blow to Labour's hopes in the Holyrood elections by saying he would not be voting for the party on religious grounds, as it had a "morality devoid of any Christian principles".

He had previously branded the Labour administration as "moral vandals" and "politically correct zealots".

The year before, he became embroiled in a row with other senior figures in the Catholic Church after condemning the actions of a senior Church aide who, he claimed, had failed to express opposition to plans to let gay couples adopt.

In an unprecedented move, the Church's two most senior clerics, Cardinal Keith O'Brien and Archbishop Mario Conti, moved publicly to rebuff Bishop Devine by releasing a public statement backing the aide.

Previously, he became personally involved in a row with Jack McConnell, the former first minister, over plans for mixed-faith, joint-campus schools in Lanarkshire.

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1

Rubbersbutnotrulers,

13/03/2008 00:30:38
Religion has no place in politics.

I think the Arch B of C's comments last month proved that beyond all doubt.

Nor has Cherie Law.

Anyone seen Tony, vicar of Englanshire recently?
2

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13/03/2008 00:50:09
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Fergus J,

Edinbugh 13/03/2008 00:50:22
If he is so concerned about this issue should he not be asking his fellow Bishops why the Catholic Church in Scotland is a Trustee of Scottish Churches House which advertises facilities, including use of the ecumenical chapel, for the celebration of Civil Partnerships.
4

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13/03/2008 01:17:09
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13/03/2008 01:23:30
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13/03/2008 01:27:02
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13/03/2008 01:42:56
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13/03/2008 01:51:27
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Jim A,

13/03/2008 01:57:30
#8 Jim Baxter RIP, you said "The Bishop has the right to reflect his views which many agree with".

I'll agree with that mate but at the same time this is the same church that has paid out hundreds of millions of pounds/dollars in child abuse cases. I'm thinking the church wants to put it's own house in order before airing their views both as individuals and as a collective.

10

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13/03/2008 01:58:18
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11

!Ya basta!,

13/03/2008 01:59:02
Devines comments are abhorrent.

The gay rights movement only campaigns for equality, the right to sexual expression and freedom from persecution, nothing more.

And in a modern society I have never seen a reason not to support such goals.

Anyhting less is a step backwards and shoudl not be tolerated.

Devine should step down. And the Church should start to address its own very un-religious attitudes.

I'm with you Gina.

12

monkey man,

13/03/2008 02:04:02
With this deluded madman Devine's so called " Church's " repulsive and gory record regarding paedophilia he has no moral platform whatsoever to criticise anyone of whichever creed or sexuality. In fact, if Devine or is that Divine ( lol ) had any self respect he'd quietly get on with practicing his so called " faith" and leave his bigotry to the past.

The overwhelming majority of Scots would rather have the gay community in charge of schools in Scotland than the RC Church.
13

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13/03/2008 02:08:59
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13/03/2008 02:27:03
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13/03/2008 02:29:15
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16

Furby,

Dundee 13/03/2008 02:35:01
How dare the bishop treat, not only consenting adults, but children who are coming to terms with the way the feel who they are as deviants. It is intolerably hard for some children to come to terms with their sexuality without comments like the bishop's making it even harder.
17

Rozz Fyffe,

Scotland 13/03/2008 02:55:53
it is time to either say that homosexuality is genetic or not, if genetic then lets screen for it so that homosexuals can be told earlier to prevent all this "worry" about sexuality.



18

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13/03/2008 03:19:28
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19

Dougie Douglas,

Douglas 13/03/2008 03:27:03
Ive heard it all now!

The church has little currency in a debate about sexual morality.

I honestly can't get my head around why so many people feel threatened by gays. Of course they will develop a lobby in an attempt to be afforded the same rights as the rest of us.

I would normally salute someone in public life who says 'don't vote labour' but not when they are a churchmen. Politics and religion do not mix - whenever they are mix it always ends up gettting ugly.

Get your own house in order Rev and leave the gays to do what they want with other consenting adults.

20

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13/03/2008 04:01:59
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21

Advance Alba,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 04:37:40
The dodgy bishop plays with fire. I am a homosexual man, and I am totally normal. I despise the views of Devine. And he plays a dangerous game. He is not the only one, or his odious Church, who can throw stones. The time is coming close when someone might start pointing out the truth about his corrupt and corrupting Church and reviving passions and actions we all thought thankfully long buried. How about that, Devine? Have a care.
22

Larry Hallatt,

Chesley Canada 13/03/2008 05:41:41
For a proper counter point to this bigoted fool Devine o

google Pat Condell web site on religion

This guy is great and says it all.
23

scotsdoc,

NANAIMO 13/03/2008 06:12:07

The Catholic church in North America is struggling against bankruptcy in many diocese due to legal settlements over homosexual abuse by certain priests, of young innocent alterboys, with the knowledge of the Vatican authorities!

I find it ludicrous that the Bishop should voice such opposition to GAY ACTIVITY when the Catholic church considers such homosexual liasons with alterboys to be minor indiscretions or pecadilloes and not mortal sin!
24

S'me,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 06:12:50
Poor Joseph, I think he needs a holiday and get a reality check, methinks just a wee bit paranoid and obsessed, signs of stress. Maybe the job is too much for him.
25

!Ya basta!,

13/03/2008 06:13:41
Homosexuality is normal, which is different from the "norm", but it is normal. It is also natural.

So Encephalon, Canada, Navvy, Daleks, Rozz, Dragonhead etc - please go, with the Raving Wrong Divine, and take your vile eugenics to hell.
26

happyhibbie,

The Inch, Edinburgh 13/03/2008 06:25:56
I hope someone asks this bammy bishop if he considers that the extermination of gays was an acceptable part of the holocaust.

This poor man needs urgent treatment for his advanced state of paranoia.
27

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 07:22:35
Homosexualaity and paedophilia are not the same nor related. Commonly paedophiles are near relatives and proportionally more likely to be straight. It is only in the twisted minds of some of the above that they assume that all gays want are small boys, i can only assume that they themselves have heads full of thoughts about small girls and really deserve sympathy and treatment however abhorent they are.

Does the new sin of excess wealth extend to the church? Can we expect the vatican to off load the riches it holds in the vatican, for a start, to provide assistance to the poor and starving of the world.
28

iain adamson,

amsterdam 13/03/2008 07:22:42
as a homosexual living in a loving relationship for 35 years i take exception to so called Christians who still dont understand the first and main commandment of Christ.. love your neighbour as yourself... a little more love and understanding for their fellow human beings as shown by Christ wouldnt come amiss.
29

dave from invercargill,

Queenstown 13/03/2008 07:31:35
It strikes me that the rc church is dealing with the issue of homosexuality on two distinctly different levels.
The first being that if one of the priests gets caught mollesting wee boys its okay because the kid was with out a doubt begging to be abused, as long as the law doesnt get involved said priest can be shipped off to run a hostel for street kids in Rio...lucky street kids. The whole episode can be swept under the cavilier bremworth no harm done.
However when two consenting adults of the same sex decide on having an physical relationship and the objective being adult and consenting there is almighty furore.
Strikes me of blazing double standards intended to divert attention away from the real problem, which I'm sure the street kids of Rio would be happy to tell you about if they had any sort of forum.
30

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13/03/2008 07:34:07
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eric,

Lothian 13/03/2008 07:34:52
I think the Church itself has done a good jobof destroying Christian morals itself.I changed my whole way of thinking about the church when they were being treated with mitts for child abuse,My own mother stopped going in early 80s because it disgusted her that much.I think they have to look in the way Paedophilia walks hand in hand with the Catholic churchNo offence meant.
32

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13/03/2008 07:43:33
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33

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 07:44:04
I reckon he can take the gay conspiracy and his God and stuff them up his cassock ,and b*gger off to Canada plenty of Frenchmen over there,but there is truly nothing more nauseous than a gay rights mafiosi moaning about the Church (any) not being inclusive .So we ask ourselves what do we need more,in yer face gay rights activism or public fountains of religious rhetoric ,the answer-
NEITHER
34

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 07:45:56
24# Phil, your heaven is my hell, the thought of spending eternity with self-rightious catholics is just too much to bare. Then again isn't judging others a bit of a no no as well?

You have a twisted view of life. You complain about the homosexuals who show the THE 'IN YOUR FACE' ATTITUDE. how many more gays surround you that you know nothing of their sex lives, who don't meet your view of how a gay man behaves or looks like. Do you ask everyone you meet about their sex life?

oh and your caps lock is on love.
35

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13/03/2008 07:47:10
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13/03/2008 07:48:44
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37

Reckless,

Lev 18:22 13/03/2008 07:51:27
Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Homosexuals need treatment. It reminds me of the RAF pilot who had his genitals mutilated for some perverted reason. The papers claim that he is now a she. One question: how many Y chromosomes does he have?
Can women have a Y chromosome? Didn't think so. He's still a man, minus a few essential parts.
38

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13/03/2008 07:52:01
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39

Boswall,

13/03/2008 07:53:20
The Catholic Church preaching morals.

That's quite one of the most hilarious contradictions I've read in a long time. From the organisation that brought us the dark ages, indulged in 'witch' burning, encourages unprotected sex in AIDS riven Africa, condemns extreme wealth at the same time as being one of the planets largest land owners.....Oh and is also infested with paedophiles and has been exposed at actively covering up some of the worst child abuses.

40

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13/03/2008 07:55:58
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41

It's me!,

13/03/2008 07:57:28
To those who try to defend homosexuality by critising the Roman Catholic church for its shocking record in child abuse I have to say that two wrongs do not make a right! We have not all been brainwashed by the politically correct brigade and some worthwhile standards of decency remain. It's a pity our politicians do not have the same standards.
42

Boswall,

13/03/2008 07:57:29
#43

How would you know???

Homosexuality has been seen to exist in loads of different mammals - is the animal kingdom 'in on it' too?

It's as natural a variant as your hair colour or height and will remain so regardless of the views of bigots such as yourself.
43

oddoneout,

13/03/2008 07:59:29
Is this also the same church that is trying to "stamp out" bigotry, with a chip on the shoulder so large that it encompasses everything that isn't condoned by their own master race.........we all know that the RCC has never done anything wrong in it's entire history and the only reason that they fell out with Labour was that Labour were better at brainwashing people into thinking that crap ideas were good ones
44

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/03/2008 07:59:52
#3 Fergus

You seem to be implying that Civil Partnerships are exclusively gay ceremonies. That is not correct.
45

Boswall,

13/03/2008 08:00:21
#46

"I have to say that two wrongs do not make a right!"

Only 1 'wrong' has been listed - the institutional child abuse in the CC. Unless you were also referring to the 'wrong' of your own hypocracy?
46

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 13/03/2008 08:03:08
I look forward to Father David Cairns MP perspective on the Bishop of Motherwell's highly contentious view.
47

Pontificatus Maximus of Avignon,

13/03/2008 08:03:59
We ALL know that those who condemn gays the most are concealing their own sexuality.
48

It's me!,

13/03/2008 08:09:38
#50. Read it again. The second wrong is Homosexuality. Homosexuality is not the norm. It is conducted by a minority. I don't agree with 'querr bashing' or such but if you must play with another man's penis or anus please do it behind closed doors. It was carried on this way for decades without flaunting in front of others with the intention of shocking those not of that persuasion.

49

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 08:09:40
To those who try to defend the Roman Catholic Church by critising homosexuals I have to say that two wrongs do not make a right! We have not all been brainwashed by the catholic churches view of the world and would rather maintain our own personal worthwhile standards of decency. It's a pity the priests do not have the same standards.
50

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 13/03/2008 08:11:24
I dont believe anyone should be persecuted for their beliefs. But I also dont want to have their beliefs openly promoted. As No 43 says, do we need four poofs and a piano type entertainers on the tv etc. In the same manner I'm quite happy for people to be Catholics, Jews, Protestant etc. But please just get on with your religions and dont try enforcing them on others.
51

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 08:12:16
Roman Catholiscism is not the norm. It is conducted by a minority. I don't agree with 'tim bashing' or such but if you must undertake their own little cermonies, please do it behind closed doors. It was carried on this way for decades without flaunting in front of others with the intention of shocking those not of that persuasion.

52

paulr,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:14:25
Bigotry, antisemitism, racism and homophobia 4 of the foundations of the catholic church.
53

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13/03/2008 08:16:09
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54

paulr,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:17:04
There is not one of these so called religions which is any better than the rest, keep religion well and truly out of politics, let them worship there imaginary gods and leave the rest of us in peace..
55

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:17:24
#55 > I dont believe anyone should be persecuted for their beliefs. But I also dont want to have their beliefs openly promoted. <

Why not? It's a free country (or it should be). I'm more than happy for Bishop Devine and Stonewall Scotland to express their views openly. Then I can listen to what they say, consider it and come to my own conclusions.
56

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:18:50
#58 > And just for the record I cannot stand gays. <

Rather a sweeping statement, surely?
57

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13/03/2008 08:19:56
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58

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 08:22:20
quote>The Rt Rev Joseph Devine, Bishop .......Catholic Education Commission, said gay rights organisations aligned themselves with minority groups, such as Holocaust survivors, to project an "image of a group of people under persecution< end quote

A very good description, if applied to the catholic church, in Scotland in particular.
59

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:22:34
#62 > To me a practicing homosexual is to be pitied as having given in to his baser instincts which he knows is wrong. No different to a thief giving in to his temptation to steal or a murderer giving in to his desire to murder. <

Silly. Thieves and murderers harm people.
60

The Daleks,

Longmen 13/03/2008 08:23:44
#28 Ya basta.

look up the meaning of the word "normal" in the dictionary, halfwit.

Homosexuality is NOT the norm.
61

voltaire's janny,

13/03/2008 08:24:02
It would appear from thousands of examples that institutionalised abuse of minor paritioners is a "Christian value".

The Catholic Church in the US has produced (from where you wonder) a billion dollars to pay off its victims.

Where's the conspiracy to get rid of religion? I want to sign up right away.



62

Astarte,

Giffnock 13/03/2008 08:24:29
The Scotsman..by refusing to print my previous comment referring to the priests who carried out sexual violations which destryed the lives of thousands of young men and destroyed their lives are you still protecting the Catholic Church and denying truth.
63

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 08:25:38
#60 urban, so it's ok to adopt aspects of sharia law in the uk by elements of our community, enforce marriages?
64

Douglas,

Bathgate 13/03/2008 08:25:53
Sam the God #58: You will find it easier to stand gays if you lean them against a wall or similar. Alternatively you can contact Stonewall. I heard they were planning to make a stand.
65

Encephalon,

13/03/2008 08:27:22
#47 "Homosexuality has been seen to exist in loads of different mammals - is the animal kingdom 'in on it' too?

It's as natural a variant as your hair colour or height "


Murder, rape and incest can also be observed in nature-still doesnt mean that they are "right" or natural.
If the human race was all homosexual-it would become extinct-therefore homosexuality is in essence unnatural.

God created Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve!
66

It's me!,

13/03/2008 08:28:16
#56. Agreed. I am not a Roman Catholic but am quite happy for them to gather behind the closed doors of the chapel. I do, however, object when they impose two minutes silence on me at a football match because who they regard as God's agent on earth (also known as superstition) has died.
67

Maximus,

Roberton 13/03/2008 08:30:29
The Church's stance on homosexuality is clear. What is often confused by those who hear it, or indeed read it, is that they consider it an attack on homosexuals.

The church should support and celebrate the common denominator amongst everyone - that we are human. The church would go further by saying that we have a God given purpose. If some choose to ignore this or deny it then fine, but the church should still be there for them .. after all who would refuse a helping hand?

I would urge the church to set the example, uphold what you believe to be true by your actions.

By the way, those who are interested in knowing the church teaches on this matter, and not just what they "think" the church teaches should the Catechism of the Catholic Church. More information can be found on www.catholic.com
68

J.B.Oliver,

Glensarria 13/03/2008 08:31:07
Ths bishop is blind! There are a lot of gays in the Church!!!
69

sharon g,

wishaw 13/03/2008 08:32:53
What expose of the church is he trying to deflect now?I remember saying hello to him once in Motherwell and again in Bonkle.Both times he ignored me.Such a christian man can't pass the time of day with one of his 'flock'.His views are vindictive.He does not speak in my name.I would rather sit in a church with my family and the gay 'conspirators' anyday than nasty narrowminded bigots who have the cheek to call themselves devout.I feel my children would be safer too.
70

Ally,

London 13/03/2008 08:32:55
So, let's see. We're funding state schools to spread this nonsense....why, exactly?

I hope he keeps this up. The more intolerance we get from lunatics like this, the sooner we'll get rid of sectarian schooling.
71

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 08:34:09
#62 encephalon, unlike the straights who steroetype gays it is actually far from the truth that gays consider all breeders as homophobes. it is only those that deomonstrate prejudices based on thier personal concepts of other's sex lives and use that as a basis for discrimination and harrasement that would be consider homophobic.

You may well spend your saturday evenings getting your kicks in a rubber french maid's outfit, but hey that's your business however far from the norm it might be and not something i would judge you by.
72

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:34:50
#68 > #60 urban, so it's ok to adopt aspects of sharia law in the uk by elements of our community, enforce marriages? <

Over my dead body. But I'd also fight to the death for someone's right to promote openly the belief that sharia law should be adopted here.
73

dave from invercargill,

Queenstown 13/03/2008 08:36:50
It seems to me regardless of what the bish. has decreed. The true and real issue is whether or not what he has said incites hatred of a minority group.
74

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/03/2008 08:38:19
#52 PM of A

That seems a little bit far-fetched.
75

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/03/2008 08:39:01
Goodness me - there certainly are lots of people on the nightshift who do not like the idea of gentleman to gentleman lovin'. It's not normal, it's a minority, Hughie Green wouldn't do it, etc. OK then, You don't like to think about it. They're flaunting themselves in your faces and it's giving you unwanted thoughts, and perhaps even some unwelcome stirrings "down there."

The bishop certainly seems to find himself experiencing some odd thoughts and seems to think that gentlemen who appear to be gay should be locked up like Oscar was. For the crime of flaunting. My question is whether all you upstanding people agree. If so, for how long should the term of imprisonment take place?

Or is that too liberal a view? What about death? The Iranian government uses cranes to hang gay men. Would that do? The Nazis used death camps. Perhaps that's too much, though.

My question is whether your revulsion leads you to agree with Mr Devine that flaunting and flamboyantness should be accompanied by punishment. And if it should, what that punishment ought to be.

Or are you all just mouth and trousers?
76

hertscot,

13/03/2008 08:39:06
Some people are gay, they have opinions, they don't fit with 2000 year old religious dogma.

Bish. Devine - GET OVER IT!
77

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:39:15
#70 > Murder, rape and incest can also be observed in nature-still doesnt mean that they are "right" or natural. <

Murderers, rapists and (in many cases) those who commit incest harm other people.

I don't see what point you're making here.

78

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/03/2008 08:41:18
And why have the cyber nats - the SNP massive that patrols this website at the dead of night - not seen fit to comment on the bihop claiming the SNP as an ally in the fight against the forces of cock fun?
79

hertscot,

13/03/2008 08:41:42
# 70 There is no god therefore it couldn't create anything.
80

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:43:54
#70 > God created Adam and Eve <

No, He didn't. People - including Christians - stopped believing this literally about a century and a half ago.
81

Michael,

west lothian 13/03/2008 08:43:55
#74

Sharon

You've summed it up perfectly.
82

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 08:45:38
The old fart in the 'White gear',you know,Ratburger was he not in the Germanic Hitler Youth???????
83

eric,

Lothian 13/03/2008 08:46:41
If there was a jesus he died for his own sins NOT mine.
84

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:46:43
Nobody and nothing has done more to distort and discredit the teachings of Christ than the Catholic church by a mile I dont even know how this business conglomorate has the gall to refer to itself as Christian.
85

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13/03/2008 08:47:05
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86

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 08:47:53
Two of the worst possible subjects for rabid posters combined in one article ... homosexuality and religion.

It's like a field-day has been declared for all the anti-gay and the religious nutters.

Devine is a clown. Worse, he's a damn dangerous clown because he has a pulpit. This is the kind of idiot religion attracts. Wonder what his position is on predatory paedophile priests?

Whatever ... his words about children are not what his church is supposed to teach. Jesus never said "Suffer the little children to come unto me ... except the deviant ones!"

This Bishop is an AR*E and should be booted back to the seminary and kept under lock and key.

Gay people are nature's way of trying to stem over-population. This is one reason why they should not adopt children. They were never meant to have any. Otherwise, they're as normal as anybody ... and in this world ... there's no-one "normal", whatever that is!
87

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:48:38
#90 > I have nothing against them but I do not want them to think they are equeal with normal people <

Now, where have I read that sort of thing before? Was it about Germany in the 1930s, maybe?
88

Michael,

west lothian 13/03/2008 08:49:53
#83

In view of the bishop's evidently rather disturbed and delusional personality, it's possible that he could claim anything without there being the slightest bit of evidence to back it up. I suspected that his assertion about the SNP was just another example of evidence of his mental health problem.
89

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:51:18
You cannot be gay and a Christian,it flies in the face of bible teachings.God says that homosexuality is an abomination's to be a christian is to believe in Jesus Christ who is the son of God gays may christian things ,but it does not make them christians.
90

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:53:28
#94, eating prawns or bacon rolls also flies in the face of Bible teachings!
91

scottishcoffindodgerno1,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:54:06
gays may practice christian things,but it does not make them chistians
92

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 08:54:38
#94, to say nothing of lending money at interest. I'm afraid that if you have a building society account, you've had it and will end up in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone . . .
93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 08:55:07
I'm disgusted at some of the comments here. Homophobia stems from ignorance, nothing more, nothing less. But the cure for ignorance requires an open mind, and there are many closed minds on display here.

Bishop Devine should resign. He is expressing an entirely un-Christian view, and he is doing so for entirely un-Christian purposes. He brings shame on the Catholic Church.

How dare anyone suggest that LGBT people have no right to sit next to Jews at the Holocaust memorial events? LGBT people were killed in their hundreds of thousands as part of the Holocaust. The Catholic Church offered the Nazis their tacit support then, and it seems even 60 years on they still prefer Hitler to Niemoller.

Oh, and for those bandying around the word "normal", educate yourselves please. Normal is a subjective notion. My normality is different from yours, neither is better than the other. From my point of view sexual attraction to someone of the opposite sex is not normal; it is something of which I have no understanding. But I would never presume to tell a heterosexual person that they are not normal.

Honestly, threads like this make me ashamed to be Scottish.
94

Johnny G,

Hamilton 13/03/2008 08:55:13
One wonders if Fr Devine has ever heard of the word irony?

"He warned that the gay lobby – which he labelled "the opposition" – had mounted "a giant conspiracy" to shape public policy."

And what are the church doing by criticising policy of government, and aligning themselves to the SNP? Surely not trying to shape public policy?

"The homosexual lobby has been extremely effective in aligning itself with minority groups...It is ever-present at the service each year for the Holocaust memorial, as if to create for themselves the image of a group of people under persecution."

And the church has not been effective in aligning itself with minority groups, and with the forces of power? Think of this. Across the globe, the RC church is closely intertwined with governments in countries with a strong RC presence, and party politics has little to do with it. Why else would they align themselves with right wing governments in some countries, and left wing in others?. To talk about creating the image of a group or people under persecution, when his very own church in Scotland have been doing the very same thing for over 100 years is teh classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. To use the example of the Holocaust memorial is also rather tactless, given the RC church support for Hitler during WWII, and the lack of condemnation of the holocaust at the time.

"I want to ask you if you are able to see the giant conspiracy that's taking place before our eyes, even if we didn't see it at the time. I take it you're beginning to see that there is a huge and well-orchestrated conspiracy taking place, which the Catholic community missed."

Huge and well orchestrated conspiracy? Who's claiming persecution now? Isn't a large religion telling it's flock who to vote for a conspiracy against anyone not sharing Roman Catholic beliefs?

"Asked about how Christians could influence politics, he commented: "It was once thought that the Labour Party was a Christian democrati
95

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/03/2008 08:55:48
#90 says:

"if you are not gay you are not on tv"

This statement is clearly and overwhelmingly untrue. I just wonder what kind of thinking produces this rubbish.
96

eric,

13/03/2008 08:55:56
Catholic Church Incorp,
97

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 08:58:13
It's just as well the catholic church doesn't have the military resources of its founder Constantine or we'd be having their fascistic doctrines imposed on us at the point of a gun.
Like what happened in Spain, Portugal, Italy and every S. American country where the priests have ruled.
98

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 08:58:43
I always forget the old story(yawn),but did Jesus screw his sister ,which produced a mutant that lived for 2000 years in a hidden casket or something ,no its completely bizarre ,never mind adhering your life to it!
99

Alec A,

Manchester 13/03/2008 09:00:51
I am disgusted that the Scotsman is happy to use itself as a platform to spread hatred, as displayed in the vile remarks on this blog.
100

Iain's,

13/03/2008 09:03:15
Nice to hear that there are still some Catholics left.

Point of information. Things have got to such a state that the word "q*u*e*e*r" is banned on this website.
This is scandalous as it is a Scots dialect word as in 'A ***** lot of people went up town yesterday'.
Shame really.
101

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:05:47
#105, in what context were you using this old Scots dialect word when your post was rejected?
102

Ally,

London 13/03/2008 09:05:48
#104 "I am disgusted that the Scotsman is happy to use itself as a platform to spread hatred, as displayed in the vile remarks on this blog."

You're so nearly correct. Unfortunately most of the vile remarks on this page are in the body of the main article, and coming out of the mouth of one of the worst bigots around. There's even a photograph of him.
103

Leon MacRackpipe, catering and medical manager,

13/03/2008 09:06:42
The bible, especially the new testament, is not anti-gay, and Jesus stood up for the rights of marginalised people like Prostitues and tax collectors.

This is just people using a sacred text to justify their own prejudices.
104

eric,

13/03/2008 09:06:42
Catholics have always felt a minority in Scotland and now with all the Different Multi cultures in Glasgow etc they are feeling even more a minority.I think its a good thing.It makes the bile and spoutings from folk like him even more irrelivent.
105

,

13/03/2008 09:10:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
106

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 13/03/2008 09:13:00
#98 Duncan

I don't believe that a "phobia" can "stem from ignorance".

I do however think that prejudice of any type can be caused by ignorance.

On the subject of "normal", you could not be further from the truth. Leaving aside homosexuality, normal is an objective term, simply meaning conforming to an average. It is a simple matter of fact. If someone is said to be "not normal" this takes on negative connotations but in fact it just means that person is different to the average or the norm.

By that definition, homosexuality is not normal in the same way as a white person marrying a black person is not normal ie it is statistically uncommon. I don't believe that this is judgmental. I do have a problem when people start to use words like "wrong" or "un-christian" or "unnatural" because that is likely to offend.
107

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 09:15:40
Then comes the gay lobby getting as frightening as the 'Religious Right' itself ,here's the message I couldn't give a monkeys how dose what to whom with consent of course ,just don't turn up upon my door step like the GOD DAM JEHOVAH'S
108

Richard Lionheart,

13/03/2008 09:18:40
Christianphobia stems from ignorance, nothing more, nothing less. But the cure for ignorance requires an open mind, and there are many closed minds on display here.

Bishop Devine is expressing an entirely Christian view, and he is doing so for entirely Christian purposes. He brings no shame on the Catholic Church.
109

haggis 10,

Capital City of Scotland 13/03/2008 09:18:59
I feel sure that his boss in Rome would fully agree with Cardinal Devine. Since his Holiness own complicity in the extermination of milions of people in the Second World War as a Member of the Hitler Youth. I refer to a statment issued on the Vatican Web Page recently To the effect that " The Pope was not very good at being a member of the Hitler Youth!!!( Does this mean he apologises for not being more directly responsible for helping to send countless innocent people to their deaths. I wonder ??? Do Leopards change their spots I very much doubt it! Some Leader And of a Christian Church too!!!!!!!
110

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:19:19
94

It flies in the face of the Catholic churches interpretation and rewriting of the original testaments from the disciples of Christ. I dont believe there is any record of Christ expressing an opinion on homsexuality one way or the other. Love thy neighbour seems to be the closest and can be interpreted any way you like.
I am no fan of homosexuality myself and I certainly dont believe they should be treated as a group or political body but as individuals they are entitled to the same basic human rights as everybody else and should be treated no differently when it comes to basic human rights.
But to give them any political clout or for them to lobby as some kind of ethnic minority is outragous.
111

Martha,

13/03/2008 09:21:49
The Bishop fortunately still has the right to make statements as he pleases. I doubt, however, that his statements will sway most adults one way or the other, since most of us have made up our minds long ago how we stand on the subject of homosexuality from a moral perspective.

Persecuting homosexuals, however, is a different issue. For the bishop to accuse homosexuals of falsely riding on the coattails of the Holocaust is inexcusable; there WAS a violent, persistent persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany and they went up in the same flames as Jews and gypsies and other "undesirables." This much is history, not religious opinion.

Ranting and raving and accusing is not the method Christ used to persuade people. In fact, what Christ said pointedly was "Judge not, lest ye be likewise judged." Christ refused to judge the sinner; He always forgave. When Christ excoriated anyone, that person was invariably a cleric-- the scribes and the Pharisees, whom he likened to "whitened sepulchres." He also called them "a nest of vipers." Very apt, considering what has been disclosed about the clergy's very unholy activities in recent times. "Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone" is as valid today as it was 2000 years ago, coming from the lips of the Son of God. Apply that to homosexuals as Christ applied it to the woman caught in adultery, and that leaves all of us to contemplate our own shortcomings rather than marking out a group of people whose sexual orientation is different than ours and branding them. Surely the bishop has a great deal more to do to clean up his own house. That ought to keep him very busy, too busy to start a campaign against homosexuals and anyone else who displeases him. He should leave homosexuals to God and figure out how to keep certain individuals of his own clergy from being the sexual predators they have so clearly been and perhaps even continue to be, even while assuming all the perogatives of moral authority
112

Tris,

Dundee 13/03/2008 09:22:18


You'd really think that, with their record on matters sexual, the Catholic Church would do better to shut up about anything to do with sex. It really just becomes a laughing stock when it ventures into that territory.

It should concentrate on what it does best......dressing up in long frocks, putting on shows and making the Vatican one of the rich countries of the world, instead of prattling a pile of garbage which would be more at home in the 17th century.
113

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 09:23:09
Catholic Church G
Protestant Churches I
Hey,Baptistas v
LDS-Dhhuuuu E
Muslims
Jewish US
Hindu YOUR
Buddhist MONEY
114

Encephalon,

13/03/2008 09:23:14
#108 & 110



You didn't look very hard for biblical sources.

See the Old testament Book of Leviticus which contains laws given by God to govern the behavior of the ancient Hebrews.

Leviticus 20:13:

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

A tad extreme even for live and let live kind of people like myself!
115

Martha,

13/03/2008 09:23:23
Christ's only commandments to us were to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves; that encompasses homosexuals as well as everyone else.
116

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:23:40
#116 > But to give them any political clout or for them to lobby as some kind of ethnic minority is outragous.<

Why?
117

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

13/03/2008 09:24:31
Well it seems the Bishop likes to cite the Holocaust. Well he should also remember a few Catholic issues:

(1) Hitler was born a Catholic and said in 1943 "I will die a Catholic", he also got married before his death. All quite religious and as far as I am concerned he was far more evil than any gay person.
(2) The Nazi regime and RCC in Germany had a pact, the Nazis would leave the RCC alone in exchange for the RCC in Germany providing a power base from the people and also not being critical of the regime. They were also asked to turn a blind eye to all the genocide, which in return for their religious dominance.
(3) While not all RCC Priests helped the Nazi´s there is a large body of evidence to suggest that many did, or at least operated on the same basis as those in Germany. The result was that they turned Jews over to the Nazi´s and no doubt many others as well.
(4) One of Hitlers main criticisms of the Jews was also from a religious angle, he failed to see why they should not be avenged for the killing of Christ.

To mention the Holocaust and prison with respect to gays reminds us of how far he would really like to go...




118

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 09:26:09
#112 I understand your semantic objections but the issue of the word "normal" is not as clear cut as you think.

Normal in this context is a judgement of one person against a population. For example, in my family, in three generations there have been 10 male children born and only one female. So that female (my niece) is abnormal in our family.

In the wider population, there is an approximate 51:49 ratio of women to men. So my niece is normal in the population as a whole, even though she is abnormal in our family.

In my circle of friends, it is more common for men to be sexually attracted to men and women sexually attracted to women, than it is for people to be attracted to the opposite gender. That is my normality. You cannot redefine that, even if it doesn't match your normality.

More importantly, though, for me as an individual, it is entirely normal for me to be attracted to a man, and it would be entirely abnormal for me to be attracted to a woman. Again, no-one else can deny or redefine that. My normality is my experience.

This issue is all about people wanting to impose their normality, their experience, on others. No-one has the right to do that.
119

sam the god,

13/03/2008 09:26:13
#61 urban guerrilla
#69 douglas

the ultimate at of sex is to propagate the species this is an impossibility for homosexuals the very acts they commit are totally repugnant to me and a great number of people through out the world but if we express our views the PC brigade accuse us of being homophobic for not having the same views as them.
By this very act the PC brigade are being discriminative against us so they should jump on their own band wagon and chastise themselves.
I repeat I cannot stand homosexuals
120

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:26:32
#120, for the sake of your eternal salvation I sincerely hope you wear a full beard and don't shave!

(Leviticus 21:5:)
121

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 09:28:58
#125 > the very acts they commit are totally repugnant to me <

And I can't stand the taste of pineapple. It's totally repugnant to me.

What's your point?
122

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 09:29:17
#120 Utterly ridiculous, unless you also believe that a woman is unclean during her period, and may not be touched. Do you believe that? It is specified in exactly the same chapter of the same book.
123

AJ Fife,

13/03/2008 09:30:16
There's no point in bashing the bishop, he's probably just sore because he's not getting his share!
124

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 09:30:48
#125 I would strongly recommend you don't have gay sex then. By the sounds of things you really wouldn't enjoy it.

But why would you object to me having it, since let me tell you, I enjoy it hugely.
125

Copper,

Falkirk 13/03/2008 09:32:25
Watch it you lot this is the official church of the MAFIA and North Lanark Cooncil !!!
126

Martha,

13/03/2008 09:34:56
#108 and #110: Yes, you are correct. Jesus never addressed the subject of homosexuality. He did not consider sins of the flesh as being anywhere near as dreadful as the sins of pride and hypocrisy, which He absolutely did not tolerate in the clergy. "Vipers! Serpents! How shall ye escape damnation?" is what He said to the clerics of His time. To the rest of sinning, suffering humanity, Jesus was forgiving. He taught by example; we should follow it.
127

Nellie,

Liverpool 13/03/2008 09:36:43
#1 I think you are in error - the Bishop is not taking this into political debate but (erroneously in my view) into one of morality. Clearly, he think homosexualty is immoral and a perversion.

I applaud him his right to give voice to an opinion in spite of the aggressive and intimidation he will doubtless get. HOWEVER, I don't agree with him!

What he and all the other moralist do not see, or refuse to acknowledge, is that Nature (if you like, products of God's making) has numerous examples of same sex "love" in the animal world beyond homosapiens, even in groups/flocks/what have you where there are plentiful numbers of opposite sex animals/birds to fulfill a hetrosexual population. Moreover, nature also demonstrates "God" created bi-sexuals in these same groups!

Hence, homosexuality is not a choice. Of course, PRACTICING it IS a choice, just the same as a hetrosexual can choose to be sexually active or celebate.

(In case anyone doubts my allegience, I'm a paid up member of the hetrosexual community! I just like to see fair play, society without unreasoned or ignorant discrimination.)
128

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 09:38:10
Hey #114
You still on the Crusades there ,so Christianphobia,is ignorance ,so whats your ignorance ,its Romes way or not at all,every living thing should be at Mass I suppose ,let me say that Christianity is the most fragmented scared flawed ,hate filled physiques that human history has had to deal with. The activated and understood brain cells of the average human in the modern era ,it fails me why people still get sucked into this voodoo
129

Martha,

13/03/2008 09:40:04
#120: Christians, and that ought to include the Bishop, understand that with Christ's coming the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant now in force. So the old laws like killing people who slept with the same sex was no longer to be in force. Instead. in addition to loving God with our whole heart and mind, we are to love our neighbor as much as we love ourselves. One who does not do this but claims to speak for Christ, is not a Christian.
130

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

13/03/2008 09:40:38
Even though I disagree with his views, I do think he has the right to express them. Also it does remind us of the true stance of the RCC, which is one of controlling people's lives and general intolerance. The sooner such control freaks are seen for what they are the better.
131

Gothic Rose,

13/03/2008 09:40:55
Now,now everyone,don`t get your knickers in a twist.:)
132

Nellie,

Liverpool 13/03/2008 09:41:10
Martha, you are correct in all respects except one and in fairness to "the other side", I ought to point this out. While Jesus taught that "sinners" would be forgiven ONLY if they repented their sins. Forgiveness, acording to his teachings, was not unconditional - at least that is my interpretation of them, but what do I know - I'm a CoE christened Buddhist!!!
133

eric,

13/03/2008 09:43:03
Neds Stabbing folk drinking buckie making areas with Huge catholic populations like Blackhill etc No go areas.Is worse .Look in your own backyard matey,Clean up your Ghettos.
134

Martha,

13/03/2008 09:44:24
So little is understood scientifically about human sexuality that for anyone like this bishop to make such pronouncements on it can only be regarded as rash and ignorant. As I said before: he's got more than enough to do with overseeing his own clergy. Whether homosexual or not homosexual, priests who prey on children are wicked. That should be the bishop's primary concern.
135

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 13/03/2008 09:47:15
I rarely find myself agreeing with Duncan from Edinburgh but I do take my hat off to him for standing up for his rights @ 131

As for Sam the God :- "I repeat I cannot stand homosexuals"

In my experience those that come out with such ridiculous statements are usually harbouring homosexual feelings suppressed over a long time.





136

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 13/03/2008 09:47:58
Twa famers, Tam and Rab, are sitting in the Farmers bar drinking beer. Tam turns to Rab and says, "Ye ken fit? I'm tired o'gan through life athoot an education. I'morn, I think I'll go doon to the squeel and sign up for some nicht classes." Rab thinks it's a good idea, and the two leave. The next day Tam goes down to the school and meets the Lecturer, who signs him up for the four basic classes:Maths, English, History, and Logic.

"Logic?" Tam says. "Fit's at?"

The Lecturer says, "I'll show you. Do you own a Strimmer?"
"Aye"

" Then logically because you own a Strimmer, I think that you have a Garden. “

Tam replies, "At's true, I div hae a Gairden."

"I'm not done," the Lecturer says. "Because you have a Garden, I think logically that you would have a house."

"Aye, I dee huv a hoose."

"And because you have a house, I think that you might logically have a family."

"I hiv a femily."

"I'm not done yet. Because you have a family, then logically you must have a wife."

"Man! Yer nae wrang!! I div hae a wife!!"

"And because you have a wife, then logically you must be a heterosexual."

"I am that! a heterosexual. That's amazin'!! You were able to find a' that oot, jist 'cos huv a strimmer."



Excited to take the class now, Tam shakes the Lecturers's hand and leaves to meet Rab at the pub. He tells Rab about his classes, how he is signed up for Maths, English, History and Logic.
"Logic?" Rab says, "Fit's at?"
Tam says, "I'll show ye. Do you huv a strimmer?"

"No."

"Well then, yer a poof."
137

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 09:51:31
This Christ boy has a lot to say,has any one got a picture painting portrait , maybe seeing he had a lot to say and was a clever chap he'll have written it down somewhere ,ah,maybe some bones,yup nothing then or now just a few ruthless b*stards wielding a cleaver little fantasy tale that caught on and has been milked to death for ever by the few to extort the many.
138

Fifi la Bonbon,

13/03/2008 09:52:35
All of this misses the point. The Bishop, speaking on behalf of his church, speaks approvingly of the imprisonment of Oscar Wilde. He complains of gay men flaunting themselves in his face.

What kinds of punishment do all you christians think appropriate in a modern Scotland to make it safe? what kind of persecutions are needed to cleanse our society and make it hole again?
139

,

13/03/2008 09:56:29
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140

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

13/03/2008 09:56:43
Interesting how he calls the gay "lobby" a minority group. For example if the statistic of 1 in 10 is to be believed it is almost the same size as his minority which is about 12%, although in reality I doubt even half of that 12% really believe in Catholic Doctrine.

As I said I respect his right to say what he did, but sadly his argument is flawed from almost every angle.
141

jdships,

13/03/2008 09:57:59
59 paulr
"There is not one of these so called religions which is any better than the rest, keep religion well and truly out of politics, let them worship there imaginary gods and leave the rest of us in peace.."

Excellent post
Why should our lives be "governed" by hypocrits and warmongers ?
Virtually every war in history has been faught over religeous beliefs .
Iraq/Afghanistan at present.
I am happier with my life outwith relgeon than I was when practicing.
Homeosexuals are a "fact of life " so why not just accept them along the lines of "Love the sinner, hate the sin"

Why can't so called "Christians " just accept that ?


142

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 09:58:13
Which would you believe in first,

The Old Testament

or

Inter Galactic Warfare in Stellar Class Star ships

143

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 10:01:36
Naw naw #146 yer wrong he gouged his Sister good!
144

Martha,

13/03/2008 10:02:05
Nellie: NO. I'm sorry, you are not correct, He simply forgave them, no repentance required. Then he told them to go and sin no more (Luke 7:48, John 8:11). He did not say: "Repent!" That was John the Baptist, preparing the way. But Christ was God. His mercy was infinite.
145

Martha,

13/03/2008 10:04:50
Somne of these comments are really sad. It's not necessary to mock Christ in order to make your point.
146

,

13/03/2008 10:07:08
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147

!Ya basta!,

13/03/2008 10:08:01
Normal is a range. Gay is on the normal, natural and totally acceptable range of sexual normality. Plenty of heterosexuals have anal sex anyway if its that the bigots don't like. So what?

Gay people have become organised BECAUSE they have been persecuted by bigots within and outwith officialdom. And good for them for standing up for equal rights everywhere.

The same goes for feminists and black rights movements. Sexism, racism and anti-gay sentiment is always about abuse of power. When the anti-gay bigotry stops then so can the activism.




148

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 10:12:12
Yes yes Martha I will apologise to you but not your Religion or any Religion for that matter.
149

Jardine,

13/03/2008 10:12:32
As far as I am aware, if it wasn't for gay priests and nuns etc there would be no church at all.
150

AJ Fife,

13/03/2008 10:20:55
Martha,

Mocking Christ is exactly the right way to show up religious hypocrisy!

Christianity is a mass of contradictions and it's good to expose the flaws of the extremely contrived Bible!
151

,

13/03/2008 10:21:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
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152

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 10:23:07
#154,
The level of activism at present in some areas,many would say way overreaches the bigotry,and what say you if I were to take a stand against all forms of organised religion mmhh,'I'm mentally repressed every time I see a church or nun or monk.
What might you say if I got Active legally towards reparation for my lost first marriage due to mental state of my wife being flogged and fingered by nuns in Primary 1.
But we must forgive the poor Nun's repressed as they were into physically unnatural celibacy ,in order to follow the supposed true and only 'Light'.
153

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:23:08
#158, > to many of us homosexuality is vile, repugnant, deviant and unnatural <

My wife would say that about football, and I would say it about ballet dancing.

So what?!
154

Leon MacRackpipe, catering and medical manager,

13/03/2008 10:24:34
#115 Haggis 10 you are an erse. As a teenage male there were only a few places you could be in 1940s Germany - The Hitler Youth, prison, The Wehrmacht or hospital. If you'd been a teenager in 3rd reich germany no doubt you too would have been in the Youth (I don't think excessive onanism was grounds for exemption).
Thousands of these conscripts, some no older than 10, became cannon fodder for the advancing red army as the ranks of the regular wehrmacht depleted and they were pressed into service with orders to fight to the death.

As for this sorry thread - all is shows is a lot of prejudice on all sides - anti-homosexual, anti-christian, anti-catholic etc. etc. It takes prejudice to eliminate prejudice - what's the point?!
155

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 13/03/2008 10:24:46
The conspiricy is real. What is not mentioned is the infiltration of the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches by homosexuals and pedophiles with the intention of misdirecting the flock and bringing discredit upon Christianity in general. Infiltrating Protestant Churches has not been as easy but some horses hoofs and kiddy fiddlers have managed get into these churches even though they are far more vigilant. The damage one bad apple does to the image of the church is expotential to the actual wrong doing of the rotten individual. While their mouths profess to love God, their actions speak louder than any words. They claim to love mankind, but their love of man (specifically certain men or boys) is their real vocation. The Bishop in speaking out is up against this well entrenched lobby within his own church. He and others like him must continue to speak out against this group. They don't believe in Heaven & Hell so they have no interest in salvation (yet). Death bed conversions may fool people on earth but they may find their visa cancelled and be redirected to their original destination.
156

Neil,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 10:26:07
So Sir Ian McKellan is the head of a massive conspiracy, presumably funded by Big Oil or Big Tobacco or other usual suspects, to pollute our precious bodily fluids.

Come back David Icke all is forgiven.
157

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 10:28:42
Hey religious people get used to the mockery its only going to get worse with the advance of time and knowledge.
158

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 10:29:09
#158 I think you need to work out exactly what you think is "vile, repugnant, deviant and unnatural".

Human sexuality works in such a way that sexual acts which do not arouse us tend to disgust us. I can assure you that many gay men, if we weren't such nice people, would describe various heterosexual acts in the above terms too, should we be forced to contemplate them.

Your mistake appears to be the transference of this dislike onto a set of people. It is illogical. The idea of male on female oral sex fills me with abject horror, but I wouldn't for a moment condemn those who get their jollies from it.

As for Plato - well you seem to have an overall preference to take moral guidance from people who lived at least two millennia ago. Are you sure that's an entirely coherent position?
159

thinking,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:29:33
There has been a huge response to t is article and I haven't time to read them all. I would like to pose a question re # 14 (& probably others)
'The gay rights movement only campaigns for equality, the right to sexual expression and freedom from
persecution, nothing more.'
If the above is correct then why, when there are less than 10% of the population (according to all surveys it is more like 3%) are gay/lesbian, does almost every tv programme etc have to have one or more g/l or a g/l theme and why do so many laws have to be enacted to protect them specifically when laws were set to protect everyone. Also why are those who reject g/l lifestyle denigrated for their beliefs?
160

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:30:11
The Catholic Church has its own conspiracies, but the bishop is spot on and it gives me joy that someone else sees this in reality.

No 'gay' conspiracy? Check out http://www.gayconspiracy.co.uk/ especially this article http://www.gayconspiracy.co.uk/page6.html which is a sort of blueprint for promoting homosexuality at the cost of Christianity.
161

Vigilant Watcher,

Bo'ness 13/03/2008 10:30:49
The adage that 'the best form of defence is attack' would seem to be appropriate.

Focus, villify, stigmatise and repeat regularly and the unthinking masses will start to believe it.

It's a typical and widespread ploy adopted by many 'shady' organisations to deflect attention away from themselves and in this case the abuses perpetrated by the catholic church (and the rest) both now and over the centuries; all in the name of their god.

The 'good' bishop has given every rationale individual the right to comment by his statements. The more of us that do the better and the sooner we can show religion for what it is the better we will all be; not just in Scotlant but throughout the world.

We should excercise that right and vocalise our opposition to ignorance, fear and the general abuse of humanity perpetrated in our names.
162

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:32:44
#166 > why do so many laws have to be enacted to protect them specifically when laws were set to protect everyone <

I don't know. Could it possibly be because they've been abused and persecuted for so long simply for being what they are?
163

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:33:58
It is always worth remembering that Peter Tatchell on his own website states:

"To echo the sentiments of the early gay liberationists: our ultimate goal must be a sexual revolution to enable everyone to share the joy of same-sex desire and love.

That is the truly emancipatory vision of the GLF era. May we never forget it."

This website would not allow me to post the URL as it had the word qu**r in it - it's Tatchell's site!

Sadly, most in government and other positions of power are too fearful to counter one of the most destructive practices in society - WAKE UP TO THIS WICKEDNESS OF THIS AGENDS AND DON'T ALLOW CHILDREN TO BE POISONED BY IT.
164

Guthrie,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:34:05
My response to the bishop:

HHahahahahahahaa
165

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 10:34:11
Joe Devine said: "It was once thought that the Labour Party was a Christian democratic party. Sadly, it's not that anymore. Certainly in terms of leadership, the SNP are much more responsive to us."

If the SNP have any notion of championing social justice in this country, they must make their response to this loud and clear. Joe Devine has thrown down the gauntlet here. The time is now for Salmond to stand up and condemn this hate speech from the Catholic Church, and distance his party from Joe Devine's immoral political stance.
166

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 10:34:33
#162 ,Tell me Drum Major how far you think this infiltration goes and for how long,I'm thinking due to Catholic Laws oh about 1700years what you think???
167

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:36:42
That last bit should be:

WAKEN UP TO THE WICKEDNESS OF THIS AGENDA AND DON'T ALLOW CHILDREN TO BE POISONED BY IT.
168

Laura3110,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:40:22
I am disgusted, appauled and outraged. The very fact that this bigot has been allowed to spew forth ridiculous and repulsive comments shows exactly how narrow-minded our society is. He hides behind religion and pretends his faith dictates his disgusting views. Using Christianity as an excuse and his clear hatred for something he is afraid of is distinctly un-Christian. If there is a God and he created everything, that includes homosexuals. If there is God and we are all supposedly his children, that includes homosexuals.

Why shouldn't children, who may grow up into homosexual adults, learn that they are normal and have the right to a sexual education? Why should we teach our children that it is OK to hate and discriminate?
What a person does in their personal lives is their own business as long as it doesn't hurt another, it should be tolerated.

Why is it that discrimination such as homophobia is seen as socially acceptable when it is just as bad as racism? I can't understand what is wrong with the world when a person's sexuality (something they have no control over) is deemed as a valid reason for hating them.

169

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:41:05
Look, I'm not a major fan of the RC church, but stick to the issue - is the bishop right or wrong.
170

sam the god,

13/03/2008 10:41:13
#158 encephalon
You are right these creatures are vile, repugnant, deviant and unnatural and should not be tolerated in any way shape or form
171

Leon MacRackpipe, catering and medical manager,

13/03/2008 10:41:36
Do you think if you eliminated Christianity, you would eliminate, or even reduce homophobia?

There's nothing anti-gay anywhere in the bible - what some Christians object to is the perceived hedonism and promiscuity of the stereotypical gay lifestyle, and that is rejected by all faiths as a route to fulfilment.

I know from gay friends the flip side is that gays are often rejected by family for their orientation, and will usually never have kids, so the motivation to feel responsibility to others and settle down is much lower.

Churches everywhere should engage in less moralising, accept people for what they are, and try to find ways of reaching out to those gays who do wish to add a spiritual element to their lives.
172

bill-alba,

Fife 13/03/2008 10:42:33
I love it..all you lovely straight people who can't get your minds and fantasies out of a bit of c&ck and A&s....as for the children, its not gay people who have children running amock in the streets too drunk to stand.
Perhaps you should all get your minds out of the gutter. As for the church - who cares what a bunch of people who's minds (like the majority of you) are still in the stone age where the fairy story started, all churches should be nationalised and turned into houses for the homeless and church authories of whatever colour should not be given tax breaks by us usually high tax band paying people, and all you anti gay/bigots and usually racist people we gays are paying taxes to keep you children and probably you unemployed uneducated people in schools and drink.
173

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:45:40
180 bill-alba - is this the stereotypical homosexual's idea of equality and tolerance?

See Tatchell's quote above, #170
174

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 10:45:58
Homosexual Activism and the Catholic Church,ONE and the SAME

Both repugnant in there verbal haranguing
Both alarmingly the same in there practise

Please give BUG*ER all to these two organisations
175

Ecce,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 10:46:25
The bishop doth protest too much, methinks.
176

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 10:46:58
#181 I don't get it. :-(
177

Miss H,

13/03/2008 10:50:22
177 Wrong. Also when people start rambling on about vast conspiracies it is a sign they have gone loopy. I think that seems very likely in this case. He'll probably go off for a lengthy retreat quite soon....
178

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:50:41
185 Ecce,Edinburgh - all people of conscience ought to protest loud and clear and have these evil laws annulled that makes sodomy legal and allows children to be brainwashed with the idea that it's a good thing to get into.

We will all suffer for the weight of sin this country is producing, especially the youngsters.
179

Boswall,

13/03/2008 10:52:58
#70 Encephalon

You’ll forgive my lack of biblical knowledge, but I would like you to clarify one thing:

The offspring of Adam and Eve – who exactly do you believe they had naughty cuddles with in order to create generation 3?
180

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 10:53:26
188 Miss H - read the article, it's not a conspiracy theory, it's a blueprint that has clearly been carried out over the past two decades since it was written -

suggest you read it again, if you even did in the first place http://www.gayconspiracy.co.uk/page6.html
181

Derick fae Yell,

13/03/2008 10:55:11
98 Duncan in Edinburgh,13/03/2008 08:55:07

"Honestly, threads like this make me ashamed to be Scottish."

Duncan - Dis issue is heehaw ta do wi nationality

Da owld Bish does seem a peerie bit un-christian. A supposed follower oda Prince o Peace, spootin hatred. tut tut.

182

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 10:55:13
#187 Thanks Meths. In all honesty I can't believe we're still having arguments like this in 2008. I can't believe that there are still people who selectively quote Leviticus at me, or talk about gay people as if we were a "modern fad". We should be thirty years past this nonsense.
183

Phil241106,

Airdrie 13/03/2008 10:55:51
It's a shame for those people who take Jesus' name in vain and make sick jokes about Him. Unless you are so thick as to believe that you are not going to be face to face with Him in the course of time - in which case He'll probably pardon your ignorance - you haven't much going for you. Better get a few more jokes in while you have the time.
184

Miss H,

13/03/2008 10:57:53
193 OK so you're loopy too.

185

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 10:58:10
#194 Fair enough. What I meant by that was that I love my country, I consider it a modern, inclusive society, and I value its democratic basis. When I read some of the bile from people apparently living alongside me here, it makes me ashamed that Scotland still harbours such views.
186

Miss H,

13/03/2008 10:58:43
192 Ask the snake......
187

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 10:58:53
195. Indeed. You would think that the Catholic church should have better things to worry about, given it seems to to be the only world-wide organisation with a repuation for institutionalised child abuse.

I only disagree with you on the "ashamed to be Scottish" bit Duncan - I am sure homophobes will spoff their charming hate over their keyboards in many countries.
188

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 13/03/2008 11:00:03
Most of what’s needed to have been said in response to the Bishop’s ignorant remarks has already been said. As an ex-Catholic, I don’t hate Catholics, or any members of another religion, purely because of their adherence to that religion. There is an awful lot of ignorance spouted about the beliefs of Catholics just as there is about Muslims or gay people. I believe religious people are entitled to their delusion as much as I might like to convince myself there are fairies at the bottom of my garden. However, what really rankles is the suggestion that somehow those of a religious bent have access to the moral high ground and that the Catholic Church today is the legitimate descendant and survivor of the early Christian Church. The RCC now and for many centuries would be unrecognisable to a Christian in the era of the Roman Empire, the time of Jesus. But guess what? He or she would recognise the huge, corrupt, monolithic, dogmatic, business organisation that is today‘s RCC, with its hideous history of persecution, leadership by personality-cult and general abuse of the ordinary member as so much pew-fodder, because it has so many of the political values of the Roman Empire at its height. (And I haven’t even come to the paedophilia: such hypocrisy!) The Bishop is merely a local official of that political organisation, not a man of God. God (if he exists, which I don’t believe) will judge him as such.

The point has been well made about how so-called Christians get all in a lather about homosexuality because of what the Old Testament says about same sex relationships but they’re pretty choosy about which bits of the Old T they decide to follow to the letter and which they conveniently ignore. And what about the need every anti-gay poster feels to say how much they hate homosexuals because of the acts they commit. Does that mean whenever they meet a person they establish their sexual preference first, then think about what they’re up to behind closed doors and like or
189

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:00:29
198 Duncan you know a lot of people who post on here are nutters .. not including me of course.

They are no more typical of average Scots than the Bish is. And he will be on his way to Craggy Island soon in my view....
190

Taoiseach,

Glasgay 13/03/2008 11:00:56
Ridiculous religious ranting. Gay rights is a political issue not a religious issue. Butt out!

Next he'll be talking about how the "Gay Mafia" is taking over the country. :)

Does anyone remember voting for this guy, no I don't think so, because we didn't elect him. So why does he think he has a right to talk about political issues. Someone remind him of Clerical abuse, that should keep him quiet :)
191

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:01:12
193. Gayconspiracy.com. LOL. Can we have a gay-pygmies conspiracy website next please, just to spread the conspiring around a bit?

Any talent pictured before I check the link?

192

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:01:32
#196 You're clearly a long-time student of theology - people who don't believe in your particular brand of religion are "thick"? Lovely. :-)
193

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 11:01:42
Aye a nice wee retreat alongside all the serial pedophile rapists keeping stum about their life in Service to Christ
194

Privateman,

Anywhere but here 13/03/2008 11:03:48
...reject the person depending on whether the image they have conjured up matches the nature of their own physical desires? That is truly deviant.
195

Encephalon,

13/03/2008 11:03:50
#178 Sam as I posted earlier I draw an important distinction between the act and the person.

#175 a very interesting point-the RC and Anglican Churches have both been more than tolerant of these practices-enough to suggest that there are strong deviant forces at work within both organisations pursuing a sinister agenda. Working overseas some years ago on a project I had business dealings with RC missionaries I was shocked at how "bent" some of the Holy Brothers were-nice people all the same- but I found it hard to square overtly gays with the RC Church's supposed stance on the subject. Is this what the Bishop is really attacking-that the RC Church is really a gay/paeodo Boys Club? It does seem to be the career of choice for those so inclined.

As for the Anglicans-a lost cause!
196

Jambo Number 1,

13/03/2008 11:04:21
The Catholic Church and its followers are, without doubt, the biggest bunch of hypocrits going.

Firstly, I couldn't care what their beliefs are. They, like homosexuals are a minority group in Scotland and in many peoples views both are a perverse as each other.

My point is what has it got to do with you?

If people want to be homosexual, catholic, muslim, wear the hiijab, wear a top hat and a monicle, WHAT BUSINESS is it of yours?

These people need to learn to GET OVER IT. The Catholics are no more going to get rid of Homosexuals than Gretna are going to be in business this time tomorrow.

For an organisation (and its followers) who spend most of their time harping on about bigotry and equality then they seem to be in a total morally bankrupt position.
197

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:04:39
206. Duncan

I think Leviticus also contains instructions to stone your wife to death is she wears clothes of more than one fabric. Only a total mentalist would seek to quote the old testament in relation to any 21st century issue (or perhaps some of the homophobes above also have ragingly strong views on the sin of mixed fabric clothing)
198

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 11:06:40
And he'll get no support from Gordon or the Liebour Party,but then,come to think about it, neither did Scotland these past and wasted 50 years.
199

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:06:58
213 Is that also the bit that has the bit about burning witches? That's always been the bit that's scared me the most. I've always been a bit of a witch.... or so I am told.

200

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:08:34
211. Well how jolly kind of you to draw a distinction "between the act and the person" - the "Deviant, bent" people you describe later. Sadly people are not divided in such a way.

I however draw no distinction between your hate speech and vile bogotry, and the hate speech and bigotry which leads to gay people being killed. Perhaps you rememeber the teenager who was chained to a fence in the USA, and stoned to death, not long after a prominent American "Christian" blamed 9/11 on "The gays, lesbians and abortionsist" who had drawn God's wrath on America?
201

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 11:08:52
197 Miss H - your attempts at one-sentence rebuttals are futile. You're clearly not the type of person to have a serious conversation with.

Unless you want to comment on that blueprint for homosexual superiority or Tatchell's ideal of having everyone engaged in homosexual acts, your posts are meaningless.

Still, there's no conspiracy. Go back to sleep then.
202

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 11:09:27
When was the last time a pope fulfilled his office of "Pontiff" and buried a vestal virgin alive or read the entrails of a dead chicken?
What has a title from a pagan religion, that in the end belonged to Roman Emperors, got to do with Christianity?
It only shows that the catholic church identifies more with physicalpower on Earth than any rewards in an airy-fairy paradise in the clouds.
203

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:10:24
217. Not sure, but I think it also contains the bit about death by stoning for working on the Sabbath, amongst other enlightment penal (no pun intended, hehe) policies.
204

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:12:09
#213 Indeed. It's a cracking good read, Leviticus. I particularly like the bits which set out precisely what sort of people you can keep as slaves. Much as I dislike the NIV, here is its version of Leviticus 25:44-46::

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

Of course it's barely 100 years since these passages were being routinely bellowed from pulpits to demonstrate the Bible's clear teaching that slavery is a good thing. Funny you don't hear so much of that today.
205

AJ Fife,

13/03/2008 11:12:15
Phil#196,

Do you believe in Santa Claus as well? How about the tooth fairy?

When you pop your clogs, do you expect a wee harp, a set of wings and yer ain wee cloud to hoor aboot the sky in?
206

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:12:27
223. ALthough the Catholic church has decreed that Beaver can be eaten (again, no pun intended) on a Friday as is it scaley and lives in the water. Stewart C had better watch out, he seems a tad scaley and slimey.
207

Derick fae Yell,

The flu-hoose 13/03/2008 11:14:42
well given the weather I reckon a bit of witch burning would be the very job. Suggest start with Pauline McScreetch.

Sorry.

In an indepndent scotland there will be no flu
208

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 11:15:29
Moses had a man and his wife stoned to death for collecting firewood on the sabbath.

Bri-nylon is ipso-facto a stoning offence, I think we can all agree on that.

209

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:15:30
211. Hey, tertiary Encaphalitis, are you in favour of death for working on the Sabbath and death for women who wear clothes of more than one fabric?
210

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:15:32
220 Well spotted.

I am however serious about serious subjects.

This is not a serious subject.
211

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 11:16:07
#211 Encephalon,
Spot on Sir,this is stunning ,Gay Activists is really just gibberish in code ,you know like the Old Testament ,and it actually means-THE PRIESTHOOD
212

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:17:22
230. Hmmm, good for Moses. We cannot tolerate women collecting firewood on Sundays. It will surely give rise to a conspiracy on female-wood-collectors.com

I think Spandex-cotton blends and anything with gingham shoud be punished anhead of nylon. Perphas just lashings for bri-nylon?
213

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 11:17:43
205 Ayrshire Scot™ - the website is http://www.gayconspiracy.co.uk/, not .com

214

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:18:28
230 Yes OK. I'm generally against the death penalty but bri-nylon does deserve a stoning.
215

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:19:43
234 No no no. I have a penchant for gingham. I wesr it while wood collecting on the sabbath. With leather trousers.
216

Stewart C.,

Scotland 13/03/2008 11:20:49
I’m out of here. As usual the Scotsman’s comments collapse in a heap of nonsense and now we have ignoramuses trying to interpret the Bible when they probably haven’t read it for years.

Aversion to perversion is not even just a Christian thing, it’s universal and in all ages. All sins help bring down civilisations. Try finding that truth in the Bible and study history to find it’s correct and it will happen the in West.

Understand how much we have been conditioned to accept the unacceptable - how else could such a change in society have happened in a generation - a generation that has seen so much of the fabric of society destroyed?

Bye
217

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:21:14
235. Sure it is (sound of white coats flapping). But check out womem-who-collect-wood-on-Sundays-and-cook-shellfish-with-it.com first.... truly evil, and the basis for the international shell-fish retailing in supermarket conspiracy
218

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:21:51
239. "Aversion to perversion"? Oh my, a rapping homophobe.
219

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:22:44
#236 You just made me laugh out loud and now everyone else in the office is eyeing me suspiciously. :-)
220

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:22:44
238. Ooh, its the red hot forks of retribution prodding your jacksie for all eternity in hell then, sinner!
221

Queen D,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 11:23:11
Has'nt christianity gone a long way from the teachings of Christ??
Personally , I am not interested in someones sexuality , I am interested in the person and how he or she behaves towards me and the wider population.
I was'nt happy about clause 28 because I don't believe it is the teachers job to teach sex education, with the possible exception of the Biology department.
I believe parents should be teaching their offspring about sex , they can then control the input (!) . They should not be allowed to shed that responsibility and dump it on schools.
The most uncomfortable lessons I ever taught were on sex education , so my view is somewhat coloured!
222

Reeky,

Under the desk 13/03/2008 11:23:56
No wonder religion is falling in popularity, it's one cult that's thankfully dying a slow death.
223

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:24:08
#239 Go sister! There's no more powerful statement of disdain than to turn on your heels and swish out of the room.

Missing you already!
224

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:25:03
246. LOL. Homophobes can be very camp. There is a message in there....
225

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:27:37
122

Why? because they aint entitled to be treated any different from heterosexuals. There are no legal statues for "heterosexuals" for anything so why should they be set up for homosexuals.
We are all entitled to basic human rights under law and that is the level playing field.
I have never heard of anybody anywhere pushing a legal issue on the grounds of heterosexuality have you??
For example there is no law that states a heterosexual couple can get married nor is there a law that states heterosexual couples can adopt children.
226

Tris,

Dundee 13/03/2008 11:27:38

120#
"You didn't look very hard for biblical sources"

108 and 110 talked about the New Testament.

You talked about the Old Testament.

There's a huge difference.

But, since you bring up Leviticus, you should maybe read the rest of it, and find out what else is forbidden.




227

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:29:49
#211, > #178 Sam as I posted earlier I draw an important distinction between the act and the person. <

Apart from the fact that the act doesn't appeal to you personally, what's wrong with it?
228

Encephalon,

13/03/2008 11:30:06
#225 "penal code"-relax its not what you think! You are also wrong about the reason for not eating shellfish!

#231 the reason good old Leviticus was brought up was in response to the erroneous assertion from the pro-homo lobby that there was no biblical mention of homosexuality.

Talking of which- whatever happened to the original Sodomites?
229

glassbenmhor,

13/03/2008 11:31:01
Yup I'd rather have had you 'Queen D' teach me Sex education than some perverted old syphilis ridden Priest roaming around the classroom with a belt in one hand and a raging hard-on in the other
230

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 11:32:11
#251
Here today gone Gommorah.
231

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:32:46
#248 I'm afraid you are dead wrong. And you know you are. You're just arguing for the sake of it.

There are still today laws on the statute books which explicitly discriminate against gay people. All legal changes of the past 30 years have simply been to remove inequalities, not grant any new rights.
232

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:33:16
248. Short memory Foulkes Off.

Gay sex was a criminla activity only a few decades ago. Visiting rights for gay partners in hopsital? The right of a gay partner regarding medical treatment of their partner? Pension benefits for gay partners? Inheritance rights for gay partners not superceded by common law? All taken for granted by heterosexual couples....
233

AJ Fife,

13/03/2008 11:35:49
#252,

You paint a gruesome picture, but one that isn't far off the mark in some instances.
234

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:35:53
#251 No. I cannot believe I am still having conversations like these. I have been having them for twenty years or more.

There is a very simple reason why there is no mention in the Bible, a 2 thousand year old text, of homosexuality. The concept of sexual orientation, as opposed to sexual acts, was not coined until the late 1800, two millennia after the Bible was written.

There are indeed mentions of sexual acts in the bible. But there are no mentions of sexual orientation, and absolutely no mentions of people who identify themselves as gay (or "homosexual").
235

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:36:15
251. The Soddomites - hellfire and sulphur I think. Except for Lot, whom God saved. Strange, because in the previous chapter Lot offers up his daughter to be raped by robbers, so save himself from being robbed. Odd choice of someone to save. Perhaps Lot was a life-long abstainer from prawn cocktails and Sunday wood gathering and this cleansed him in the yes of God for the sin of giving his daughter to rapists to save himself a few sheckles?
236

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:38:19
#251 Ah yes, the sin of Sodom. Which was inhospitability to strangers, according to most theologians, including the Catholic Church.
237

Queen D,

Glasgow 13/03/2008 11:39:04
Glasbenmhor, thank you!
So a blushing faced ,sweaty palmed, stuttering eejit appeals more than a sadistic priest?
I actually made the greatest mistake of my teaching life in front of 2F boys , by inviting them to ask any question they liked! Which is why I describe myself as a blushing faced eejit!
238

Porky,

West Midlands 13/03/2008 11:39:18
Seems to me that the proportion of homosexual support letters here prove the man's case of a gay lobby. I've never seen so many toys thrown out of prams in anger
239

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:39:54
259. I think there were lycra hot pants and jacuzzi parties which displeased God as well?
240

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:41:21
248 Not quite clear what your point is there. Are you saying that there should be no differences between the way the law treats gay people and straight people? I agree with that but it is not the status quo.

You say that there is no law that says that heterosexual people can get married but actually there is. And the law says that ONLY heterosexual people can get married. Gay people can have civil partnerships now but the right to marry is restricted to heterosexual people.

So they don't have the same rights as you and I because they are gay so that is why there are equal rights campaigns still going on. There's a solution to it - a written constitution and bill of rights which gives everyone the same human rights.
241

Encephalon,

13/03/2008 11:41:36
#253 Top of the class!

"destroyed by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven" . Something for a few on here to ponder.

Almost 7-time for me to hit the (girlie) bars!
242

KarenQ,

Scotland 13/03/2008 11:41:42
I'm surprised that bisphops can still get away with saying this kind of rubbish - but i can almost excuse him as he has been brainwashed all his life, what really surprises me is the number of posts here that actually agree with his point of view - whatever happened to good will to all, not to mention tolerance! like the Bisphop the 'gay bashing' minority in scotland belong in another century, they should be left in a corner and ignored. And #5 quoting usually means one thing; your clearly brainwashed and have no thoughts of your own, you might want to actually think about issues once in a while rather than spouting passages.
243

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:42:15
254

But there are no laws which discriminate FOR heterosexuals yet homosexuals are trying very hard to set up laws to discriminate FOR them as homosexuals ergo no more level playing field.
244

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:43:02
259. Duncan

bit harsh of God to burn the whole city for being inhospitable. All you Edinburgh - you'll have had yer tea - types had better get some good brollies :-)
245

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 11:45:07
Wow.Its taken me a wee while to read all these posts.
Some people posting their homophobic religious bigotry previously had me fooled into believing they were sane and sensible.

How would you punish somebody for wearing stonewashed jeans?
246

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:45:21
267. No. There are laws which de facto discriminate for heterosexuals against homosexuals- hospital / medical treatment consultation, inheritance, pension benfit transferability, unequal ages of consent.

And of course you look at this on a UK basis. Only a few years ago in Egypt we saw mass arrests of gay men who were displayed publicly in cages....
247

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:45:24
#261 What a lazy and idiotic piece of logic. Someone very publicly slags of a large group of people, and additionally claims that they constitute a "lobby" and that this is a bad thing; members of that group respond, that is taken as proof of the bad thing.

An utterly false premise is not proved by an inevitable side-effect of the accusation. You'll need to do better than that.
248

Miss H,

13/03/2008 11:45:59
267 No they are not - where did you get that from? What rights do they want gay people to have that they don't want straight people to have?

All they want is the same laws to apply to people irrespective of their sexual orientation. Surely we can all agree on that, apart from the religious fanatics obviously.
249

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:46:19
269. Stone them again? Talk about a Pyrrhic punishment hehe
250

Encephalon,

13/03/2008 11:48:13
#261-there are certainly a few drama Queens getting all excited.

Either a large proportion of Scotsman readers are homos (a possibility in Edinburgh) or maybe they all mail each other for mutual support!
251

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:48:46
#267 Where do you get this stuff? It simply isn't true.

Marriage laws discriminate in favour of heterosexuals because they extend the right to marry exclusively to heterosexuals.

There is no lobby for "special rights". Every source for this claim can be traced back to the religious right and their long-fought campaign to oppose equality and fairness for all people regardless of sexual orientation.
252

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 11:51:56
#275 People have made very strong points to counter yours, and you have ignored them. You have now moved on to calling people names. Why not address the issues that have been raised?

There is an overwhelming, rational argument against your stated position. Face up to it.
253

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 11:52:02
275. Are you saying Edinburgh is full of gay men?
254

westview,

Back to the wall. 13/03/2008 11:52:58
With all the rampant sex with children that passes the time for so many priests and is horrifically covered up by Bishops and the catholic organisations , I have a suggestion. Do not let ANY priests into ANY school in Scotland, joint campuses or not.
255

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:53:22
#267, until 1980 male homosexuals could be imprisoned just for having sex, whereas heterosexuals couldn't.

That wasn't a very level playing field, was it?
256

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/03/2008 11:53:55
NOW we know the true viciousness of numpties such as Draghead from China, the Daleks, and other aberrations of reasoned thought.

#138 Gothic Rose

Good morning, madam (it is 7:40 a.m. here)

This Devine creature is truly a disgrace to his church. He has been called on the carpet by his superiors more than once and yet he persists in this campaign of self-aggrandisement and personal vindictiveness.

Pride goes before a fall and a haughty nature before destruction. This man is a sheep in priest's clothing.

Save us from these prattling priests and meddlesome prelates. They are toxic reminders of the sins of arrogance and self-opinionatedness.

Was he having a slow day and feeling ignored and just wanting to stir the pot?

Gothic Rose - Devine's knickers are most likely women's lurid red silk smalls. Who knows what unsavoury things are lurking beneath his priestly garments? It is yucky just to think about his private fantasies.

The blo*dy-mindedness and backwardness and lack of logical thought by many of the posters is appalling and, as one poster said, this thread makes Scotland and many Scots appear as antediluvian fanatics who would welcome bringing back the Inquisition (from which order Betsy the Sixteenth of Rome came) and throwing "faggots" on the fire - and I am not talking about a bundle of sticks bound together for fuel.

What a depressing and appalling thread to read so early in the day.

Devine will one day appear before his maker and may he be hurled into one of the lower circles of Dante's Hell.

He is an affront to Jesus Christ and His teachings and so backward and intransigent that he should be in NO position of power. He is evil and dangerous and his superiors just want him to SHUT UP and not bring ridicule and derision of the RC church.
257

JMCG,

Planet Earth 13/03/2008 11:55:43
I see no stone has been left unturned as Scotland takes another opportunity to vent its spleen at a Roman Catholic cleric. Is the whole Bishop's speech available? Or just a selection to feed the frenzy?


258

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:56:17
263

No there is no existing law that states or comes close to stating a marriage must be between 2 heterosexuals or even between a man and women if we are to split hairs.

The legal conditions FOR marriage are:

Marriage

No one can be forced to marry against their wishes.
Both members of the couple must be aged 16 or over.
You can't already be married (see bigamy).
Can't be too closely related
Under 18s must gain their parent's or guardian's written consent, otherwise it is a criminal offence, although the marriage would still be valid.
Marriages involving under-16s are not recognised by law.
You need at least two witnesses to sign register on the day.

There is no statement or condition in any law which says the couple HAS TO BE HETEROSEXUAL.

I readily admit that the church has serious issues in performing gay marriage ceremonies and that difficulties exist due to predudice but they are not legal.
In fact the UK has more problems recognising some foreign heterosexual marriage ceremonies as legal.
If new laws are introduced stating marriage is legal for homosexuals then they will have something heterosexuals dont.
259

David North,

Bridgend 13/03/2008 11:57:15
"God created Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve!"

To which Adam or Eve would have had to perform incest with their first son or daughter in order to further produce more people.

260

Free-Scot,

Scotland 13/03/2008 11:58:46
Bishop Devine: "Certainly in terms of leadership, the SNP are much more responsive to us."

You have been warned my fellow Scots, S.N.P. - Soon No Protestantism.

PS. I wish Roman Catholic clerics from the Pope down would stop using the term "Christian(s)" when what they really mean is "Catholic(s)".

Re: The Holocaust - perhaps the bishops next lecture could be on Pope Pius XII's (better known as Hitler's Pope) role in this abomination or maybe the support given to fascist General Franco by the RC Church here in Scotland. Now there's a 'funny' thing - is it just coincidental that Franco, Hitler and Mussolini were all Roman Catholics?

And how did their regimes treat homosexual people? Oh and to paraphrase a German Protestant cleric of the Nazi era - IF IT IS HOMOSEXUALS TODAY, WHO WILL IT BE TOMORROW. Remember, the bishop is a cleric in a church still trying to claim back the territory lost to the Reformation.
261

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 11:59:10
281

In public!!!!! same for heterosexuals and its still illegal at least in this country.
262

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 12:00:27
#283 Oh yes, THAT's what's happening. No doubt when these extracts are read in context, it will turn out that he was actually embracing social justice for all.

Or perhaps at the end of his lecture he said "That's off the record by the way", and the terrible Scotsman has unfairly quoted him directly?

Anyway, poor Joe Devine. Another hard done to cleric whose only crime was to spread fear and hatred, contribute to a climate of intolerance and help to justify even more homophobia in Scottish society. Poor, poor Joe.
263

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:00:27
287. Erm, no, it was still a criminal offence for two 20 year old men to have sex in private.... you have a short memory....
264

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:01:30
Some of the Strange Laws in the Bible

The inspiration for this section originates with Christians and Christian groups using the Bible to justify horrible actions, most notable in recent years has been gay bashing. Rev. Fred Phelps protests any people who support gays, as well as homosexual funerals with colorful signs reading "God Hates Fags" or "Burn in Hell FAG!!!". Dr. Laura, a disgustingly boring radio personality, as well as failed TV personality... not to mention a bad source of advice, also uses the Bible to justify her dislike of homosexuals. The Ku Klux Klan uses the Bible to justify their actions, as well as abortion clinic bombers, mail bombers, and dictators/tyrants throughout history. But what does the Bible really say about things like this? How does the Bible expect us to act? Let us find out.

Homosexuals MUST DIE!!!

The killing of homosexuals is condoned and encouraged in the wonderful laws of Leviticus. Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Well there you have it, Homosexuality is wrong, and they must pay the ultimate price... IN THE NAME OF GOD!!!

Who else shouldn't people do?

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with
265

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:01:43
#287, no, AT ALL. Until 1980 you could be imprisoned for having sex with your middle-aged partner of 20 years' standing in your bedroom in a private house, with no-one else present or even in the house at all.

Lovely old times, to which I'm sure you'd like us to go back.
266

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:03:04
Continued ...
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants.

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter lies with different men, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

One must wonder why there are so many people wanting to site Leviticus for gay bashing, but they never mention these rules. How strange. It is common that a Christian will blow off these old rules with "Jesus came to change the laws, so these are outmoded, and we don't need them", but throughout Leviticus God states that these laws are to be followed forever. Hmmm.

267

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:04:23
#289, until 1980 any sexual act of any kind between adult males in Scotland was a criminal act - even in private. It wasn't a matter of age. It was illegal for two male OAPs to have sex with each other.
268

Miss H,

13/03/2008 12:04:50
275. I'm not a homo - though I confess to being a witch.

Although I suspect it is male homos most homophobes actually object to not lady homos.

Men usually don't mind lady homos do they? In fact they are quite keen on them!
269

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:05:01
The Ten Commandments are very famous examples of Biblical rules, but it can be amazing how few people know what's included in them. Let's recap.
1. You are to have no other gods before God
2. You are not to make any graven images.
3. Don't use the Lord's name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath holy
5. Honor your mother and father
6. Do not kill
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Don't steal
9. Don't bear false witness.
10. Don't covet the neighbour's house.

Here are some things you may not know were included within the commandments.
People seem to think the second commandment says you aren't supposed to make a graven image of God, and that's it. But you are not to make any graven images of anything in heaven, in the earth, or in the water. This would include no graven images of fish, moles, worms, birds, shrimp, ants, and all sorts of things. One must wonder why God was so worried about these things that he felt the need to put these ahead of murder and stealing.
In the third commandment, people think that means we shouldn't work, but just go to church on the Sabbath. But NOBODY is to do any work, including your employees, your cattle, nor anyone who is visiting you.
While you are not coveting your neighbour's house, also refrain from coveting other things he owns, like his wife, ass, and ox.
270

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:05:06
The Ten Commandments are very famous examples of Biblical rules, but it can be amazing how few people know what's included in them. Let's recap.
1. You are to have no other gods before God
2. You are not to make any graven images.
3. Don't use the Lord's name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath holy
5. Honor your mother and father
6. Do not kill
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Don't steal
9. Don't bear false witness.
10. Don't covet the neighbour's house.

Here are some things you may not know were included within the commandments.
People seem to think the second commandment says you aren't supposed to make a graven image of God, and that's it. But you are not to make any graven images of anything in heaven, in the earth, or in the water. This would include no graven images of fish, moles, worms, birds, shrimp, ants, and all sorts of things. One must wonder why God was so worried about these things that he felt the need to put these ahead of murder and stealing.
In the third commandment, people think that means we shouldn't work, but just go to church on the Sabbath. But NOBODY is to do any work, including your employees, your cattle, nor anyone who is visiting you.
While you are not coveting your neighbour's house, also refrain from coveting other things he owns, like his wife, ass, and ox.
271

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:05:16
The Ten Commandments are very famous examples of Biblical rules, but it can be amazing how few people know what's included in them. Let's recap.
1. You are to have no other gods before God
2. You are not to make any graven images.
3. Don't use the Lord's name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath holy
5. Honor your mother and father
6. Do not kill
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Don't steal
9. Don't bear false witness.
10. Don't covet the neighbour's house.

Here are some things you may not know were included within the commandments.
People seem to think the second commandment says you aren't supposed to make a graven image of God, and that's it. But you are not to make any graven images of anything in heaven, in the earth, or in the water. This would include no graven images of fish, moles, worms, birds, shrimp, ants, and all sorts of things. One must wonder why God was so worried about these things that he felt the need to put these ahead of murder and stealing.
In the third commandment, people think that means we shouldn't work, but just go to church on the Sabbath. But NOBODY is to do any work, including your employees, your cattle, nor anyone who is visiting you.
While you are not coveting your neighbour's house, also refrain from coveting other things he owns, like his wife, ass, and ox.
272

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:05:53
289

If it was in private how were they caught?
273

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 12:05:56
#284 Two people cannot marry in Scotland if they are both of the same sex.

Stop beating this dead horse. You are trying to argue semantics, badly, and there is no point.
274

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:06:22
Sorry about the triple post. Dunno what happened ...
Anyway ...
The Often Overlooked Rules in Deuteronomy

The book Deuteronomy also lays some laws down, but nobody ever mentions them, but why not take a look at those laws also?

Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)

If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

This shows you that it really is scary that people want to make the Bible part of the law. Not to mention it sheds light on why Christians are so overly oppressive to those who don't share their belief. Sick, sick, sick. It can also be said that any person who uses the Bible to justify beating a homosexual, is a hypocrite if he doesn't adhere to all of these laws.


275

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:07:39
298. Not your best debating. Many gay men were prosecuted for private consensual sex.
276

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:08:13
293

So how was it enforced?? how do you enforce a law which is broken in private??
277

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:09:11
302

How if it was private??? did they give themselves up to the law and confess through guilt???
278

Miss H,

13/03/2008 12:09:15
284 Sorry you are just plain wrong about that Foulkes.

Marriage is restricted to men and women.

There is no such thing as 'gay marriage' in this country.

Civil partnerships are not the same as marriage.

Gay people are not allowed to get married to each other - that is a fact.
279

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 12:10:03
283
Is this portion of his vile rant not enough?

I'm not gay, but I'd like to be in the
""huge and well-orchestrated conspiracy" against Christian values."
Where can I sign up?
280

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:11:09
304. Raids on private homes and hotel rooms. Some men were prosecuted on the basis of letters to partners etc.
281

Miss H,

13/03/2008 12:11:09
301 You're on a roll there. (Unleavened of course).
282

Clive Hamblin,

Sussex 13/03/2008 12:11:47
Surely:

1. Whatever happens behind the bedrom door is the concern of those involved and no one else?

2. Making silly, rude and unhelpful comments about others' Faiths merely proves that those making them caon only offer abuse and don't know how to debate.

Just a couple of thoughts!

283

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:12:45
#301. Methalions ... My brother says he is stealing your song for the gay club he goes to. I told him he must credit you since you ripped it off first! :D
284

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 12:12:48
308
A cracker.
285

Boy Wonder,

13/03/2008 12:14:58
#309. Clive ... you wrote:
1. Whatever happens behind the bedrom door is the concern of those involved and no one else?

But I was in a hotel last Saturday and the couple who were in a room on an upper level made SO much noise everybody felt they were part it!
286

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:15:17
#298, they were informed against or entrapped, or they refused to pay a blackmailer who then shopped them. Sometimes the police confiscated the sheets and searched them for stains.

Did you *really* not know that all sexual acts between consenting male adults of whatever age were illegal until 1980.
287

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:15:45
305

Says who? neither Scottish nor English law actually states this. There is no legal condition of marriage that states the couple should be man and women nor does it state they CANT be the same sex.
That is a fact. If a law is introduced stating that same sex marriage is legal then a similar law will have to be introduced to state that opposite sex marriage is legal to keep the balance.
Just because something is generally and widely accepted or not accepted doesnt make it law.
288

Free-Scot,

Scotland 13/03/2008 12:17:57
Bishop Devine: "There are many days when I'm glad to not be a parent."

There are many of his fellow RC bishops/clerics (including here in Scotland) who could not say the same.
289

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:18:23
318. LOL. Nice songs by the way hehehe
290

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 12:18:34
"thou shallt not worship graven images"
Do you know what happened to the "golden calf" the Hebrews made while Moses was conferring with the bush? (similarities to Charles Windsor must be ignored)

It was melted down ..........and recast as a golden serpent.
It's all there in the Bible.
291

Free-Scot,

Scotland 13/03/2008 12:19:38
Bishop Devine: "There are many days when I'm glad to not be a parent."

There are many of his fellow RC bishops/clerics (including here in Scotland) who could not say the same - perhaps with the exception of the homosexual ones.
292

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 12:20:10
#317 You are wrong. Scots common law defines marriage as being between one man and one woman. Stop just repeating this nonsense and listen to people who know better than you do, for once.
293

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 12:21:07
319
Choked out my coffee at that one!
294

clivesh,

13/03/2008 12:21:52
After years in which the Catholic Church tried to destroy homosexuals, the time has perhaps come to turn the tables.

In "Double Cross -The Code of the Catholic Church", David Ranan wrote "According to the Church God does not particularly like homosexuals and really hates it when homosexuals actually have sex." Bishop Devine should not complain.
295

Miss H,

13/03/2008 12:22:02
317 It is the law. Gay people cannot legally get married. Whether a religious or civil ceremony makes no difference. And they therefore do not have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.

Read the guidance from the GRO if you do not believe me!

http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/registration/rm1text.pdf
296

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:22:53
315

No I didnt. Its not something that has concerned me I am more interested in this story from the point of view of the church and its hypocricy.
I got side tracked because I dont like political lobbying by anybody or group it smacks of favouritism and corruption. I dont like the general idea of lobbying groups putting pressure on politicians for anything that isnt what we elect them for.
297

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:25:27
#332, it hasn't directly concerned me either, but I see it as an important matter of justice. I don't mind political lobbying - for instance, if I write to my MSP about something, isn't that political lobbying? - but I do believe that all are entitled to a voice.
298

sam the god,

13/03/2008 12:28:51
in my view it is a totally repugnant lifestyle and a vast numbers of posters agree time to make it a crime again
299

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:30:53
336. If 3 is a "vast" number, indeed. What should be the punishment for this cime, in your view. And how would you define the crime?
300

Burnside,

13/03/2008 12:34:46
"Male and Female He created them....Be fruitful, multiply, fill the Earth and subdue it". Now while this is not fact, it is the truth (there is a difference between fact and truth).
Nevertheless, I do feel, even as a Catholic, that Bishop Devine's comments were harsh. Even the Cardinal and Archbishop Mario Conti find this man extreme. I think Devine may have forgotten his Catechism... "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (2358 - Catechism of the Catholic Church). As for those who commit paedophilia, as many commenters have mentioned, without wishing to judge them, they will receive their punishment when they die if they are not truly sorry that they have sinned and that they have hurt God and those whom they molested. Peace of Christ...
301

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:37:31
339. Not the mingers, tho?
302

Miss H,

13/03/2008 12:38:49
339 Or lock all the homo women up together ... make a video of it ... and rake in millions from all the hetero men who will buy it!

There's nowt as odd (because the moderator will not let me use the word that starts with q and ends in ueer) as folk.....
303

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:39:14
341. True Dave. Perhaps Sam will have segregated gay prisons?
304

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:40:27
324. If only there was some institution where lots of closeted gay men and women could go, live and work?
305

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:42:15
330

Well from that evidence it certainly seems so but I am pretty damn certain the actual statute doesnt state this it may be the person copying this summery has interpreted the statute in their own way but I cant prove otherwise so I will give it the benefit of the doubt. Also as I said before I didnt know that homosexuality was illegal until 1980 in the UK.
306

Leithen Laddie,

Borders 13/03/2008 12:43:13
The Bishop is spot on. The very small minority of homosexual activists is very vocal and gets much more press than it deserves. It would be really great if the national church spoke out against such evils in our society and got back to Bible values in Scotland.
307

sam the god,

13/03/2008 12:44:27
343 ayrshire scot
no more drastic than that send them to become priests/bishops
308

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 12:45:05
#343 Ayrshire, nah he won't and hey what happens behind closed doors won't get mentioned.
309

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:45:06
342 - Gaytanamo, the movie?
310

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 12:45:58
344
Is there not a song about it?
Which Meths ripped off.
311

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:49:19
348, What, again?
312

sam the god,

13/03/2008 12:49:34
ayrshire scot re #337 their are more than 3 people that object to these things but I will let you off with 3 assuming that is as high as you can count.

Also the Catholic church can be called hypocrites concerning holocaust day as the Vatican helped out in the deportation of Jews from Italy.
313

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 12:50:43
346
Bible values?

Compact TruTone Thinline Bible--bonded leather, olive with Celtic cross design-only £22.99
314

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 12:51:22
The religious should stay out of politics. If the comment had been made by a politician, or even a 'celebrity', it would at least have cleared the god squad from the forum. As it happens, the Bishop's comments refer to the 'Gay Lobby'. It is the gay lobby that turned the comments around to an attack on individual gays.

'Bishop Devine said: "The homosexual lobby has been extremely effective in aligning itself with minority groups.- He is absolutely correct. The gay lobby piggy-backed the women's movement with their own agenda. Now, you never hear of the feminist movement and lesbian feminists are ridiculed. Anyone heard of PETER MANDELSON? He had everything to do with the 'gay' legislation that has beset Britain since 1997. In capturing social consciousness, it is important to capture the language - the feminists did it, the gays are still doing it.

14 !Ya basta!,said 'The gay rights movement only campaigns for equality, the right to sexual expression and freedom from persecution, nothing more.' If their aim is 'equality', who do they want equality with? God? Heterosexual males? They now have more 'equality' than women and straight white men in the legal system.

19 Furby,Dundee said 'How dare the bishop treat, not only consenting adults, but children who are coming to terms with the way the feel who they are as deviants. It is intolerably hard for some children to come to terms with their sexuality...' The 'Gay Lobby' is now in a position to capture youngsters who are still experimenting with their sexuality. If my son had come home from school saying he 'liked' his male teacher, he would have been told 'It's a phase, you'll get over it.' Now, as soon as a CHILD expresses confusion about his/her sexuality, they are immediately labelled and caught up in the 'Gay Lobby' net. And, before you know it, being 'gay' is their identity and lifestyle.

20 Rozz Fyffe,Scotland 13/03/2008 02:55:53 said
'it is time to either say that homosexual
315

Himself,

Aberdeenshire 13/03/2008 12:51:40
Number 30 GOD CREATED ADAM & EVE _ NOT ADAM & STEVE
316

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:51:59
353. Oooh, biting wit, Sam. But nice of you to let me off with a threesome.

I just assumed hateful bigoted drooling homophobes go around in threes - one to read, one to write and one to watch the two dangerous intellectual types?
317

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:52:04
335

No you are entitled to direct your contituency MP or MSP to issues concerning you in fact if you try to raise constituency issues with any other MP or MSP he or she will only direct you to your own MP or MSP the political lobbying I am concerned about is by groups who lobby MPs and MSPs not of their own constituencies but on specific issues these groups may even contribute funding to particular MPs or MSPs or parties and we all know about that.
The gay rights issue is national therefore any issues they lobby for will have national repurcussions involving non gays and you wont have a say in any decisions taken because of this lobbying hardly democratic.
There is no reason why individual gay folk cannae bring their concerns to their own constituent MPs or MSPs like the rest of us.
318

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 12:52:20
Continued:

20 Rozz Fyffe,Scotland 13/03/2008 02:55:53 said
'it is time to either say that homosexuality is genetic or not, if genetic then lets screen for it so that homosexuals can be told earlier to prevent all this "worry" about sexuality.' - It is genetic for the male of a species to stick his penis into any hole - be it a hole in the ground or a baby's bottom. Modern society made rules to protect women, children and other males from this vile intrusion. The 'Gay Lobby' have overturned these rules.

170 Stewart C.,Scotland said '"To echo the sentiments of the early gay liberationists: our ultimate goal must be a sexual revolution to enable everyone to share the joy of same-sex desire and love.' - Tatchell also promotes removal of the age of consent at which a CHILD can have homosexual relations with an adult.

124 Duncan in Edinburgh, 'Normal' is not a judgement. it refers to social 'norms'. In ancient Egypt, homosexuality was 'normal' and homosexuals were distinguished between 'active givers' and 'passive receivers'. The 'receivers' were 'normally' young boys and treated as a lower class of being than the 'givers'. Duncan, your example of family 'norms' is ridiculous.

And finally, 32 iain adamson,amsterdam - I have no objection to consenting adults doing their own thing in private. What I object to is having sexual deviance promoted as the 'norm' in society by the 'Gay Lobby' Read the article again, it was about this very aim of Tatchell and his deviant followers, it was not about love and affection between same-sex adults.

Always remember - Tatchell's ultimate aim is to promote legal sex with children as the 'norm'.
319

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/03/2008 12:52:36
356. Stil God must have created homosexuality as well?
320

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/03/2008 12:53:44
Boy Wonder

You have brought some sanity and clarity to this depressing and infuriating thread by your quoting and ridiculing some of the strictures in the bible that confound human reason and sanity.

Thank you.
321

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 12:54:04
#345 It's simply not good enough to say that you didn't know that homosexuality was illegal in Scotland until 1980. You have repeatedly posted on this thread that you knew that there were no laws against homosexuality. You have used the same dogmatic tone as you always use. And yet you now readily admit that you had no basis at all for this. You didn't know, and you didn't even bother to look it up.

What prompts a person to behave in this way? Why did you expend all that effort angrily promoting a point of view for which you had absolutely no basis?
322

john z,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:55:08
So what would this 'man of god' do if he had child who was gay? He says he 'would not tolerate it'. What does he mean, would he stone the child to death like in Iran?

He talks glibly of the Holocaust, yet his views on homosexuality are EXACTLY the same as those of Adolf Hitler. Fact.

I'm gay. what would he have suggested my father do? Drown me? murder me? He must now speak up and say what exactly he means by "..not tolerate it".

Mr Devine, should I be locked up, or maltreated, just because you think you hear voices from an imaginary man in the sky. Hmmm...I don't think so.

Joseph Devine, just why are you so filled with venomous hatred? Not sure that's how a christian should be.

But on a final point, maybe he and his kin, when they talk of the Holocaust should look at the history books, as to the role the pontiff and Vatican played with the Nazi Party. Much blood on the hands of the Roman Catholic church all through the third Reich.

Apparently, 'jesus loves you' - unless you happen to be born gay.
323

john z,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:55:21
So what would this 'man of god' do if he had child who was gay? He says he 'would not tolerate it'. What does he mean, would he stone the child to death like in Iran?

He talks glibly of the Holocaust, yet his views on homosexuality are EXACTLY the same as those of Adolf Hitler. Fact.

I'm gay. what would he have suggested my father do? Drown me? murder me? He must now speak up and say what exactly he means by "..not tolerate it".

Mr Devine, should I be locked up, or maltreated, just because you think you hear voices from an imaginary man in the sky. Hmmm...I don't think so.

Joseph Devine, just why are you so filled with venomous hatred? Not sure that's how a christian should be.

But on a final point, maybe he and his kin, when they talk of the Holocaust should look at the history books, as to the role the pontiff and Vatican played with the Nazi Party. Much blood on the hands of the Roman Catholic church all through the third Reich.

Apparently, 'jesus loves you' - unless you happen to be born gay.
324

john z,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 12:56:23
So what would this 'man of god' do if he had child who was gay? He says he 'would not tolerate it'. What does he mean, would he stone the child to death like in Iran?

He talks glibly of the Holocaust, yet his views on homosexuality are EXACTLY the same as those of Adolf Hitler. Fact.

I'm gay. what would he have suggested my father do? Drown me? murder me? He must now speak up and say what exactly he means by "..not tolerate it".

Mr Devine, should I be locked up, or maltreated, just because you think you hear voices from an imaginary man in the sky. Hmmm...I don't think so.

Joseph Devine, just why are you so filled with venomous hatred? Not sure that's how a christian should be.

But on a final point, maybe he and his kin, when they talk of the Holocaust should look at the history books, as to the role the pontiff and Vatican played with the Nazi Party. Much blood on the hands of the Roman Catholic church all through the third Reich.

Apparently, 'jesus loves you' - unless you happen to be born gay.
325

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 12:58:36
357
Methinks sam is a flog 'em and hang 'em type...
326

Cor-Jesu-adveniat-regnum-tuum-adveniat-per-Mariam,

USA 13/03/2008 12:59:03
The Catholic Church is more relevant today than ever. The Catholic Church feeds more people, houses more people, takes care of more sick people, educates more people, clothes more people, and visits more imprisoned people than any organization on earth could ever hope to. Homosexuality has been around from the beginning. So have rape, murder, and incest. Homosexuality is opposed to the common good. It introduces disorder into society. God bless the good bishop for speaking out!
327

,

13/03/2008 13:00:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
328

Edinburgh Supporter,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:03:01
#365
Jesus loves you unless you happen to be born gay.

Exactly not a choice that you have made. But would you choose to join the catholic church which supports explotation of the poor, allowing them to die because they do no approve condoms.

I know as a gay man that I have certain choices which I can make and One which I cannot. I made the choice not to continue with the Catholic Church a long time ago. My concious is at peace and I can do that by helping the people that the Catholic Church put at risk
329

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:03:17
#359 Your final sentence is an out and out lie, promoted by religious right institutions like Care and the Christian Institute. Why not go and read Tatchell's own words to find out what he has actually said, in the context of the larger sexual rights movement? Why just pick up the distortions promoted by his opponents?
330

IainA,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:03:30
Good grief, now I remember why I despise organised religion. Not god, just religion.

Why on earth should I accept as valid anything that a man says who represents a church which:

- espouses anti-gay sentiments
- denies condoms prevent AIDS
- preaches to 3rd world countries that contraception is a sin
- was guilty of keeping silence during the holocaust he talks about
- only regards women of use if they are Nun's or mothers and denies them a ministry if they are called to it
- has been involved in very dodgy financial dealings
- flouts the rule of law by covering up for or moving priests who are caught commiting sexual offences
- claims the spiritual authority to make moral decisions for all of us based on a one line sentence in the bible about Peter being the Rock of the church (not, you will note, Peter's "successors", just Peter

I could go on and on, bust basically, these people believe there's a man in the sky with a white beard who hates gays. I bet that if there is a divinity (and that's something none of us can know for sure, whatever your faith tells you) then the systematic distortion of the teachings of love and truth by Christian churches (catholic and protestant alike) must be a constant horror for it.
331

,

13/03/2008 13:05:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
332

Busymale,

13/03/2008 13:06:42
Years ago homosexuality was frowned upon, now with unrelenting canvassing its become acceptable. Hard core was frowned upon, now with internet access even our young innocents can see it. As those who are perverted gain acceptance it is we, the vast majority "who do not like it up em" who are being castigated for finding it repulsive.

As the boundaries are continuously pushed, I see a time 100 years from now when society will say, "can you believe it, but a century ago child porn was viewed as unacceptable!" We cannot open our mouths without being told how to think.

The Bishop speaks for non-Catholics too you know!
333

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:09:39
#367 "Homosexuality is opposed to the common good."

What does this mean? How can a form of human sexuality, which implies no actions, and defines no persons, possibly have any effect on the common good?

Homosexuality is a form of human sexuality in which a person is sexually attracted to people of the same gender. It is an academic concept, a description of a set of feelings. How can it have any impact on the common good?

If you are actually claiming that gay people are opposed to the common good, then I challenge you to present any evidence of that, because I can reel off a large set of names of gay people who have done more for the common good than the average Catholic.

"It introduces disorder into society."

Again, a description of a form of human sexuality can have no effect on society. If you are claiming that gay people introduce disorder into society, then explain to me how this "disorder" is manifest. Because from where I am sitting, gay people themselves largely want to be left alone to get on with their lives without being oppressed by laws or churches. If anyone is introducing "disorder" today it is Joe Devine and his incitements to hatred.
334

Conan the Librarian™,

13/03/2008 13:11:28
367
Just how much wealth is in the artworks in the Vatican City?How many homeless get to kip in the Basilca of St Paul?
Eye of the needle and all that.
335

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:11:45
#373 Years ago slavery was acceptable, now it is frowned upon. Would you equate that to child porn too?

It is offensive to lump advances in sexual equality together with problems of child pornography. If you cannot see the difference between the two then it is YOU who needs to educate yourself.
336

Johnny G,

13/03/2008 13:13:08
367

Do you have any evidence of any of that?
337

G,

dundy 13/03/2008 13:13:35
And the catholic chruch has never portrayed itself as being persecuted?????
As usual they are preaching to themselves....
338

Ally,

London 13/03/2008 13:14:53
Is anyone else getting hilariously context-sensitive Google ads at the bottom of the page? I'm getting:

www.freeUKdating.org/Christian (Christian dating)
www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com (the truth about the Catholic church) and
www.worldslastchance.com (Revelation 17 reveals the identity of the next Pope)

First funny thing I've noticed on this entire thread!
339

john z,

edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:15:50
The reality is, that gay people are just like anybody else, it is not just about sex. They are probably amongst the most harmless bunch of people in Scotland.

Gay people do no harm, they just want to get on with their lives, with equal rights (not special rights).

Sadly the type of comments from this bigot devine, only serve to give succour to the homophobic thugs who bash, kill and torture in the name of a god all around the world on a daily basis. Shame on him.. Shame on the catholic church. Shame on Scotland.

340

IainA,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:17:11
#373 Busymale

"The Bishop speaks for non-Catholics too you know!"

Well, he doesn't speak for this one!

Your post is a reductio ad absurdam, it's a retelling of the old joke about the man emigrating before homosexuality becomes compulsory.

I am not homosexual, and I'm not attracted to young girls. Why, therefore should you assume that a homosexual should be attracted to young boys?

We are perfectly capable of being moral, whatever our sexuality and we don't need someone with his mind stuck in the 14th century to do it for us by invoking the almighty to back his arguments when anyone questions them.
341

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 13:17:26
370 Duncan in Edinburgh: I have a news cutting and a parliamentary response regarding Tatchell actively advocating the reduction in the age of consent to 12 - and the desire for the age of consent to be even lower.

What do you know about Tatchell and the 'Gay Lobby'?
342

Doreen,

13/03/2008 13:18:28
373.....Aye you've bin busy cruisin the internet for gay porn by the sounds o' it pal....and along the line I am sure you will have 'paused' for more than a second to get a gawp at the heterosexual porn on the net?.....come oan...tell me ye didnae eh?.....
343

Miss H,

13/03/2008 13:19:11
Is there a www.wee-freeUKdating.org/Christian?

Maybe we should try and set the Bish up with someone.

Ecumenicalism in our time!
344

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:20:37
362

Its called admitting when youre wrong I knew you wouldnt recognise it, its a whole new concept for you.
Mind you if you had to practice it you would have to stop posting altogether.
345

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 13:22:07
380 john z,edinburgh - 'Gay people do no harm, they just want to get on with their lives, with equal rights (not special rights).'

I agree with your comment. But, the 'Gay Lobby' has its own agenda. They do want special rights and the PC brigade are handing it to them on a plate. The 'Gay Pound' has a lot of influence on the decision makers.
346

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:24:56
#382 As a fully paid up member of the gay mafia, I happen to know Peter very well. I know, also, that he holds different views from me on the age of consent. He quite rightly points out that for some people, 18 is too young an age for them to give informed consent, and for others, 14 is too old for them not to be allowed to. He considers 16 for everyone to be a poor compromise, as it neither protects the truly vulnerable nor liberates the rest.

Rather than basing your views of a person on a news cutting (from what publication and by whom?) and a Parliamentary response (by whom, to what?) I would strongly recommend you read the words of the man himself, which are available on his website and on the Outrage website.
347

Cor-Jesu-adveniat-regnum-tuum-adveniat-per-Mariam,

USA 13/03/2008 13:25:28
The Rev. John Nesbella, who works at the Prince of Peace parish in Northern Cambria in the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese, at one time distributed the pamphlet "Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do."
Nesbella says the seven-page document supports thechurch's stance against homosexuality by detailing claims about the negative medical consequences of gay sex acts. The pamphlet is authored by Paul Cameron, a sociologist who chairs the Family Research Institute in Colorado Springs. It graphically describes various gay sex acts and refers to Cameron's own research, newspaper articles, medical journals and government statistics.
Cameron concludes, "Homosexuals are sexually troubled people engaging in dangerous activities."
348

Tris,

13/03/2008 13:27:10
John z, I agree.

Not that the average ned is gonna be reading what Devine says, but somehow it will trickle down, and justify the gaybashing.

If Mr Devine would turn his attention to the real sexual crimes inside his own church he would earn a little respect.

Then once he's done that he could apply himself to the problems of poverty and hunger and illness that beset so many in his flock. That should keep him occupied.... but will he do it? Nah.... that's hard work
349

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:28:14
#385 But you haven't admitted you were wrong!

The end of a conversation in which you have been shown to be comfortable peddling falsehoods is hardly a time for you to come over all holier-than-thou.

And if you have followed my career on these boards that closely, you would know that more than once I have been made to eat humble pie by Miss H. Not often, mind, but I have done so.
350

Cor-Jesu-adveniat-regnum-tuum-adveniat-per-Mariam,

USA 13/03/2008 13:28:33
There is such a thing as natural law. Its force is inescapable and the consequences of violating it are as unpredictable as they are inevitable. Men and women joining and raising children are an example of natural law at work in a unique relationship that has deserved its special treatment by government; men and men or women and women, joining together in sterile relationships, have no basis in natural law and they are undeserving of equivalent treatment.
Everybody knows that fooling around with Mother Nature is dangerous. Modern man is fooling around. Watch out!
351

Murdoch,

Fort William 13/03/2008 13:29:15
I was born into a small (> 1 in 10) minority. Others like me were regularly beaten in school to "cure" them of their abnormal behaviour - it never worked, it's just the way we are born. We are "sinister" and "gauche" not adroit like normal people. Life is geared to the normal majority - so some have developed shops and goods for people like me - yes folks - I'm (gulp) left-handed.

This "Christian" man is a disgrace.
352

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 13/03/2008 13:29:38
#368 & #383

Doreen.

Good morning, madam.

Nice to read a bit of sanity in this wacky thread.

Did you read my post at #282 where I would appear to have ridiculed that demon Devine?

You are SO correct about men surfing or cruising the net for porn - be it straight, gay or otherwise.

We all do it - it is part of our genetic makeup - and anybody who says they don't is a liar or a eunuch.

Perhaps the most pornographic website is the Vatican one. Go to it and read a litany of lies, deceit, pompousness, and triumphalism. DISGUSTING!
353

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:30:17
#388 There are literally thousands such bogus pieces of "research", all produced by the religious right, all promoted as being by "sociologists" or "doctors" but all failing to pass peer review in any respected scientific journal.

Why would anyone choose to believe something so obviously prejudiced?
354

Tris,

13/03/2008 13:31:17
"The 'Gay Pound' has a lot of influence on the decision makers."--386

Of course it does, like any other group of people with money to spend, business will listen to them. There are, however, poor gay people too.
355

Unimpressed one,

13/03/2008 13:31:43
"We must resist being corrupted by secularism."

I think you've got that sentence ar*se about face bishop.
356

,

13/03/2008 13:32:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
357

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:33:10
#391 Modern man is fooling around? Are you another of these deluded souls who thinks that same-sex relationships are something new? Ever heard of the Greeks or the Romans? Did you know that until Victorian times in England there was very little opposition to same sex couplings in the UK? Did you know that the Catholic Church themselves have changed their views on such relationships numerous times in their history?

You talk in dogma, and it is simply not applicable to the real world.
358

wayne bijlyeerheid,

13/03/2008 13:33:47
The catholic church has never contributed an iota to aid social progress, prosperity or freedom. On the contrary it has been the most reactionary exploitative organisation in the history of the western world.
It said and did nothing about slavery, racial equality or the rights of the common people.
As for religion it doesn't consider Protestants as human beings and insists on seperating "Catholic" children from contact with "Protestant" children.
It said nothing about the Jews, Gypsies etc. under Hitler, and believed gays got what was coming to them.
True the last pope was opposed to communism, in Poland, but the pre-war clerico-fascist regime that the CP replaced was a Nazi ally who took part in the invasion of Czeckoslovakia, something else the vatican had nothing to say about.
And if a certain Glasgow east end, priest founded, sporting instituition really was begun for charitable reasons "to serve the whole community" its set some sort of a record by never giving out a penny in 120 years.
359

Miss H,

13/03/2008 13:35:54
358 I honestly don't get what your issue is here.

Gay people don't want to have special treatment or to be treated differently from anyone else or have a privileged position. The opposite is true. What they want is equality - that's it.

All of these issues can be resolved in my view by enshrining peoples rights. The SNP policy is to have a writen constitution which guarantees fundamental liberties without discrimination on the grounds of race, disability, age, gender, faith or religion, social background or sexual orientation.

If we could get that sorted out then frankly that's the end of all these sorts of depressing debates about whether it's OK to treat people as second class citizens because you don't like them. And there will also be no need for people to lobby for equal rights - they will have them.

360

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 13:37:06
395 Tris, - Yes, Tris, but it's not the poor gay people who run the 'Gay Lobby'
361

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:38:04
#397 What a ridiculous lurch in your argument. A gay man who takes an interest in the gay age of consent is somehow suspect? Who do you think should take an interest in such decisions? Bishops?

As an adult gay man I campaigned for an equal age of consent because when I grew up, I was criminalised by virtue of the people I fell in love with. I didn't want any more young people to suffer. How dare you or anyone insinuate that that makes me someone with "an active interest in the supply of suitable fresh meat"? How bloody dare you, you arrogant, ignorant person?

It's clear that you don't like the idea of gay sex. So don't do it. But don't you dare tell me that I shouldn't be allowed to.
362

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 13:39:06
391# i assume that your definition of sterile couples extends to those hetero couples wh can not conceve, whether through choice or not and even worse those potentially fertile couples who choose not to ahve children. How bad must they bed getting married and only indulging in sex for fun. we're all dooomed!
363

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 13:40:54
399 Duncan in Edinburgh,- You use the Victorian era to support you view on the acceptability of homosexual practices. You failed to mention that chldren as young as 9 years old could be married off to old men.
364

Saoghal Beag,

13/03/2008 13:41:03
Duncan don't rise to their bait. you've kept a cool head and argued against these un-christian fools who use organised religion as an exc use for bigotry and persecution. they are scum.
365

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:43:38
390

I thought I just did??

Duncan Miss H picks you up on the same topics as the rest of us so by admitting Miss H has forced you to eat humble pie then you are admitting being wrong about the topic so where have you admitted being wrong to the rest of us on the same topics??
I have never seen you admit yer wrong to anybody not even Miss H.
366

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:44:24
#402 Much as I support what you say Miss H, the truth is that period of legal change is largely over as far as gay rights is concerned, and what we face now is the far more challenging problem of social change.

For me, a prime requirement for social change is political leadership. Now, this isn't a dig at the SNP, because I have consistently criticised all previous administrations for this too. But what we need is for the First Minister and other political leaders to stand up and visibly and vocally lead people on this issue.

That means, when bishops make outrageous statements, politicians should stand up and challenge them, publicly.

The danger we face is that the law will enshrine equality, but society will continue to discriminate, because thought leadership is coming from churches and bigots instead of secular, rational leaders.
367

Cor-Jesu-adveniat-regnum-tuum-adveniat-per-Mariam,

USA 13/03/2008 13:46:22
Can You Get Away With Sin?
Galatians 5:19-25 Here’s a silly question: if you planted several apple seeds in your front yard, what would grow? Apples, of course! It is foolish to plant apple seeds but then expect to reap a crop of oranges, isn’t it? Now, let’s take that little question a step further. If you planted seeds of sin in your life, what would grow? Sadly, the result is just as clear as the apple question: you’d reap a harvest of sinful consequences. Why is the answer so obvious when we’re talking about apples, yet so elusive when we are dealing with sin in our own lives? Many people who freely engage in sinful activities are shocked and amazed to discover the disastrous results that always—always—follow. Why are they surprised? It is because they never actually think of themselves as planting seeds of sin; they see themselves as “only having a good time.” This is a trademark maneuver of Satan. With temptation, he always offers us one thing, but then delivers something completely different. The good we think we are getting always turns sour before we can fully enjoy it. That is because Satan can offer no lasting joy; he serves up only lies and destruction.
368

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 13/03/2008 13:46:40
Love the sinner (I am a sinner) hate the sin.

Any scan of the "gay" sections of the Personals will show, "older for younger" way more than "Well settled sensible middle aged homosexual seeks same for long term loving relatiuonship"

Is it known yet if there is a "gay gene"?
369

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:47:48
#406 Good comeback. There's nothing quite like picking out one small phrase, using it to link the speaker to an entirely unrelated topic, and then throwing that back at them.

Does that mean you've accepted that this isn't a "modern" thing, and that in fact there is evidence of same sex couplings going back to before the time of Christ?
370

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 13:48:34
404# Duncan dear, I don't give a damn what you do with your bits. But, I do care a lot about the 'Gay Lobby's' interest in the age at which an adult can have sex with a CHILD, and their declared aim to institutionalise the 'normality' of gay sex.

By their own admission, gay men are extremely promiscuous. Align that with the 'pleasure' of a tight hole (there's no inoffensive word for that) and the Gay Lobby enters my area of concern.

And you can 'how dare me' all you want. You've dominated this thread enough as it is.
371

inclusive,

13/03/2008 13:49:44
I'm gay AND catholic. Gay not from choice, it's the way I am (the way God made me?). Catholic from choice, since I was 34 (I'm now 50). For all gay readers please know that whatever the archbishop says, you are welcome in the Catholic church (God invites you). For all hetero catholic readers (especially those who have gay relatives/friends) please remember there are gay people in the church who love God and their fellow women/men just as much as you. The Catholic church is very much alive in today's world, and there are gay men and women who are proud to be a part of it.
372

Gothic Rose,

13/03/2008 13:50:26
308#Miss H.

Brill.:)))
373

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 13/03/2008 13:51:09
415 I agree ........ always the "older for younger" scenario.
374

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 13:51:47
#409 Perhaps you should study the way Miss H argues - which is calmly and rationally and with a logic that follows the argument rather than throwing insults and accusations around and trying to fold irrelevances in.

You are a dreadful debater, a wind-up merchant. As a result you have never come close to persuading me to change my mind about anything.
375

,

13/03/2008 13:54:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
376

The Fly Fifer,

Fife 13/03/2008 13:58:29
416, the Catholic Church has rules written in the Catechisms .......have you read these ones?

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
377

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 13:59:19
401 Methalions: The 'Gay Lobby' do not like to articulate the acts they perform - is this because it is 'objectionable'?

412 The Fly Fifer,Fife - Yes, fly man, there is a gay gene - it's in the male chromosome. However, if this gay gene was left to its devices, we would all be at risk from deviant male sexuality. That's why societies construct 'norms' of behaviour. The problem with modern society is there are too many of us on the planet and so we tolerate gay relationships. This, however, has nothing to do with the aims of the 'Gay Lobby'.

413 Duncan in Edinburgh,13/03/2008 13:47:48
You have not been reading my mail, Duncan. Try again and read my post at 359
378

Martha,

13/03/2008 13:59:31
I'm a Christian. On this forum I have stated:
1. Christ said to love your neighbor as yourself.
2. Christ never addressed the issue of homosexuality.
3. Relatively nothing is known about human sexuality in science.
4. The bishop would do better to make sure his own house is clean before commenting on anybody else's.

The bishop has every right to comment on the moral state of affairs in Scotland, but as a follower of Christ he is to do it in humility, not in pride or from a position of authority that he simply does not possess. He is supposed to be the servant of the servants of God, not a field marshall, and in any case, his own religious community should receive virtually all of his attention, because it obviously is in need of it. Is sex between two consenting adults as grave a sin as an adult cleric corrupting a child? Jesus didn't think so. He said that it was better than a millstone be hung around the neck of anyone who corrupted a child, and that he be thrown into the sea. Tough words from the Prince of Peace.
379

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 13:59:46
402

Aye in the wonderful world of disney maybe.
Equality to do what? have sex? fall in love? hold hands in public? have babies? raise kids?
Or is it about having power to change legislation and law because you can?
Because once you have that kind of power its very difficult to give it up or stop using it.
Ask the womens lobby.
380

Duncan in Edinburgh,

13/03/2008 14:05:14
#415 The age of consent has absolutely nothing to do with adults having sex with children.

You deliberately misrepresent the issue in order to justify your opposition.

Gay people are no more promiscuous than straight people. In fact I can categorically state that when I was in my twenties, my straight friends had far more different sexual partners than did my gay friends and myself.

Your argument is so pathetic, so baseless, that I can only assume you are propping up prejudice with it rather than justifying considered opinion.

You don't like the idea of gay sex? Fine, don't do it. I'm far better at it than you anyway.
381

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 13/03/2008 14:07:11
420

I wont argue about that except for the wind up bit I never post to wind up because I genuinely believe in what I say otherwise I wont get involved. You on the other hand are a real wind up merchant because you come across as being far too intelligent to believe half the nonsense you post. This subject is probably the only real subject you are capable of posting any genuine heart felt opinions on. Yer politics are a sham and yer anti SNP anything stance is too transparent to be honest.
Even yer indignation now is fake.
You should stick tae yer gay rights threads its the only time you can post anything truthful.
382

Furchrissake,

13/03/2008 14:10:56
426# Are you thick or what? The age of consent has EVERYTHING to do with adults have sex with children.
If adults could be trusted to NOT have sex with children, there would be no need for legislation and associated punishment.

I can see you're rattled because I have already stated that I have no problem with consenting adults indulging in gay sex.

The article was about the 'Gay Lobby' and my comments have been about the 'Gay Lobby'. And, as I said earlier, it is the 'Gay Lobby' (like yourself) that is individualising the issue.
383

,

13/03/2008 14:12:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
384

Miss H,

13/03/2008 14:14:29
425 You have completely lost me. I just don't get your agenda. I don't think you do either to be honest.


 
 


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