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America bursts into song as Pope celebrates birthday at White House



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Published Date: 17 April 2008
AN ENTHRALLED crowd of more than 13,500 sang Happy Birthday to Pope Benedict XVI yesterday – twice – while George Bush said that the first papal visit to the White House in 29 years was a reminder for Americans to "distinguish between simple right and wrong".
In his welcoming speech to the Pope, the US president said: "In a world where some see freedom as simply the right to do as they wish, we need your message that true liberty requires us to live our freedom not just for ourselves but in a spirit o
f mutual support."

The two men share much common ground, particularly in opposing abortion, gay marriage and embryonic stem-cell research, but they disagree over the war in Iraq, the death penalty and the United States' trade embargo against Cuba. Pope Benedict also speaks for environmental protection and social welfare in ways that often run counter to Mr Bush's policies.

The pontiff has told reporters that he planned to bring up immigration policy with Mr Bush during their private Oval Office meeting. Benedict has talked forcefully in the past about the damage caused by punitive immigration laws.

The pontiff turned 81 yesterday, the first full day of his first trip to the US as leader of Roman Catholics. His 90-minute stay at the White House – only the second by a pope – was accompanied by a pomp and pageantry rarely seen, even at a venue accustomed to welcoming royalty and the world leaders.

The vast South Lawn was filled to nearly bursting with the largest crowd of Mr Bush's presidency, requiring a large television screen so those farther back could see.

Thousands of people filled Washington's streets as well, playing music and waving banners as they waited for a glimpse of the pontiff.

An almost serenely quiet papal arrival at the White House preceded the programme, as Benedict's limousine pulled up to a greeting from Mr Bush and his wife, Laura. The two leaders strolled along a red carpet to a platform on the lawn, and sat side-by-side as the Marine Band played the national anthem of the Holy See, while a 21-gun salute sprayed smoke into the air.

The famed American soprano Kathleen Battle sang The Lord's Prayer. The US army Old Guard Fife and Drum Corps marched by, dressed in colonial garb.

The love in the audience was evident. A few yelled "Viva il Papa". Four youngsters sat on the grass with handmade signs, one reading "We love you pope of hope" and another showing a birthday cake – chocolate – with an 81 on it. Happy Birthday was sung spontaneously early in the ceremony, while a formal, more full-throated version came at the end. "God bless America," said Benedict robustly, to cheers from the excited throng.

The six-day trip to Washington and New York City coincides not just with his birthday; it is the third anniversary of his ascendancy to the Church's top position. Nurturing the US flock is a sensitive and important mission for Benedict at a time, not just of ongoing scandal in the American church, but amid his campaign to beat back secularism and reignite faith worldwide.

"I trust that my presence will be a source of renewal and hope for the Church in the United States and strengthen the resolve of Catholics to contribute even more responsibly to the life of this nation," he said.



The full article contains 579 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 16 April 2008 10:33 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Roman Catholic church
 
1

Fanling,

Hong Kong 17/04/2008 02:55:03
... pass the sick bag
2

Horrible Cankers Le Cyber Shebeen,,

17/04/2008 03:03:53
1 Fanling

Stop lookin' in the mirror..
3

Fanling,

Hong Kong 17/04/2008 03:47:55
Christalmighty ... I looked, then I just saw the Horrible You. Nightmare. Daymare. Stop right there. I will not engage in your idiot games. Your game is up, and you are well rumbled on here. @rse about with your username all day and all night ... sane people have you figured.
4

,

17/04/2008 10:22:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

,

17/04/2008 10:47:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Guga II,

Rockall 17/04/2008 11:31:18
#4 Are you dyslexic? You can't even spell your own name. It should be Mousey Dung.
7

Guga II,

Rockall 17/04/2008 11:40:13
"A few yelled "Viva il Papa".

So, nobody yelled Seig Heil for the former Nazi and member of the Hitler Youth.
8

Elderberry,

17/04/2008 12:21:17
#4 & #5 are the same troll, they are both Horrible Cankers.
9

Jewel of the Forth,

Fife 17/04/2008 12:39:04
7 Guga II

Shameful, you must not have received much attention being drug up.
10

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 14:31:02
#9 Jewel. #7 Guga is more than shameful.It is much more serious than that. The guy is sick and needs help QUICKLY!
11

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 14:32:09
#1 Stop looking into the mirror and you will not need the "sick bag".
12

,

17/04/2008 17:36:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Black Beard,

17/04/2008 20:17:37
12 I thought that was the ANC...
14

Tobermory,

Mull 17/04/2008 21:12:17
12 Media 1

Obviously you have no respect for anyone, including yourself.
15

Caora Dubh,

Croit sheasgair 17/04/2008 21:34:42
Yawn...I bore myself you know, not just YOU!
Let's go over the Catholic Church's achievements for the umpteenth time:

(1) 5000 children abused in the USA alone. Thousands more abused worldwide, esp. in Ireland. The Catholic Church has charitably provided place of refuge for paedophiles for decades (if not centuries).
(2) Millions of women reduced in status to baby-making machines; queen termites with their intelligence, creativity and energy burnt up in child-bearing. But then again, Catholicism is also the time-honoured, venerable fertility cult of Venus, a.k.a. Mary.
(3) Millions of women exposed to the health risks inherent in child-bearing, unprotected sex, and back street abortions. Catholicism has single-handedly managed to greatly increase the total number of abortions by suppressing birth control, but amazingly also opposes abortion! Ah well, what does one expect from such a wacky fertility cult?
(4) The Roman Catholic clergy have subsumed the power of their own god to grant absolution. The Pope can send people to Hell and rescue them! What hubris!
(5) Roman Catholicism has created a pantheon of saints, many of whom never actually lived, or about whom nothing whatsoever is truly known. But that hasn't stopped the creative urge of the clergy, who have invented entire biographies to justify spurious sainthoods.
(6) And Roman Catholics have learnt to worship weeping paintings; even to recognise Mary in fogged windows and tea leaves. What's next, Il Papa? Dare I mention the WC after use, and pre-flushing?

There's so much more, but it really is getting so painfully, painfully boring...
16

,

17/04/2008 21:41:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Whisky Smuggler,

17/04/2008 22:54:44
18 Chairman Mouthy aka Horrible Cankers

Why do you freehootsman people troll the Scotsman?
18

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 22:54:49
#16 Oh dark one, You are right about one thing! You are a complete bore. Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
19

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 22:58:04
#16 More than 1 billion Catholics dont agree with you. That's a lot of Catholics! You really are a sad individual, yes! quite sad.
20

Whisky Smuggler,

17/04/2008 22:59:44
20 Flower of Scotland

#16 Caora Dubh must be a Islamic terroist since he/she did not provide a huge list of all the good things the Church does in the the world. That or he/she is just filled with hate and wants to try to upset others.
21

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 23:01:13
Oh! I forgot to say, GOD BLESS OUR POPE! WE will be true to thee till death!
22

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 17/04/2008 23:03:41
#22 Whisky..... Completely agree with you. Good post.
23

Regina,

17/04/2008 23:13:33
12 Media 1

No, that would be any group you are in favour of.
24

Let's have the truth,

QUEENSLAND 18/04/2008 02:03:21
Catholicism, Islam, what's the difference?

One could put 'ofacist' after either.
25

Edward M. Kennedy,

18/04/2008 02:32:16
26 Let's have the truth

Hater
26

Virginian,

USA 18/04/2008 05:33:22
Article Quote:

"The pontiff has told reporters that he planned to bring up immigration policy with Mr. Bush during their private Oval Office meeting."

Answer:

The Pope must not realize that President Bush will be back at his ranch in Texas in just a few months when he is no longer President.

The President will undoubtedly let the Pope's "forceful" talking go in one ear and out the other...as he should.

The US electorate is still 56% Protestant to 25% Roman Catholic with droves of Roman Catholic Mexicans converting to the Baptist Church.

Does the Pope seriously believe that this visit is going to change anyone's mind on the issue of immigration?

The President is being polite so as not to alienate Roman Catholics, but it certainly does not mean that the American people are going to agree with Pope Benedict about anything he says.

He'll be back home in a few days and everything will go on just as it did before he showed up on these shores.

The papal visit was a nonevent for most Americans.
27

mary gold,

USA 18/04/2008 14:24:21
President Bush described Benedict as a "humble servant of God, an outstanding university professor, & a compassionate & caring individual"
Benedict has opened communications with Muslims & HIS EFFORTS have led to the FIRST Christian church in Qatar & hopefully the FIRST CHURCH to be built in Saudi Arabia. He stresses FREEDOM of conscience for everyone, exactly why he Baptized a former Muslim converted to Catholicism during Easter services.
He plans to teach the world that killing in the name of God is horrific, I hardly call THAT going home and carrying on as before as #28 would suggest.
28

Virginian,

USA 18/04/2008 16:18:57
#29 mary gold,USA

Quote: "He [the Pope] stresses FREEDOM of conscience for everyone, exactly why he Baptized a former Muslim converted to Catholicism during Easter services...I hardly call THAT going home and carrying on as before as #28 [Virginian] would suggest."

Answer: mary, you seem confused about what is being discussed.

The subject is whether or not Pope Benedict will be able to effect change by "talking forcefully" to President Bush about allowing Roman Catholic illegal immigrants into the US and taking away the US Cuban imbargo.

President Bush does not have the ability to make edicts for the US as the Pope does for Roman Catholics.

The American electorate and Congress decide such matters. That is why it does no good for the Pope to "talk forcefully" to the President.

As far as the Pope baptizing a former Muslim during Easter services...an obvious mistake because it has further inflamed the Muslim community as he did recently with his infamous quote against Islam.

The papal visit has no effect on the 56% Protestants and the other non-Roman Catholic Americans that together equal 75% of the electorate because they do not consider Benedict as the head of Christendom or of any other religion or belief system.

Protestants believe that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Christian Church and that the Holy Spirit is God's Mediator on earth in the place of Christ as is stated in the Bible.

Roman Catholics in the US do have "FREEDOM of conscience" only because the Protestants who founded the US won this right for everyone and enshrined it in the US Constitution.

It would only be right that you should thank US Protestants, by the grace of God, for your enjoyment of religious freedom instead of ascribing this right to the papal hierarchy.

29

Flower of Scotland,

Glasgow 18/04/2008 22:24:08
#30 You talk bullshi*, absolute bullshi* The Pope is the head of Christendom. He is the successor of St. Peter who as we know was the first Pope. Read Matthew chapter 16 verses 16-19. Oh! and by the way. GOD BLESS OUR POPE THE GREAT THE GOOD!
30

Hugo Rafael Chávez,

Venezuela 19/04/2008 01:41:34
CHILD MOLESTATION AND OTHER VIOLENCE

Many studies of child molestation have been carried out, and the results are both consistent and startling. Between 55-60% of statutory rape (child molestation) involves homosexuality (P. Cameron, Psych. Reports, 1985, 57:1227-36). A survey of white gays found that 65% admitted to having sex with boys 16 or younger, when they were 21 or older (A.P. Bell, Sexual Preference, 1981, 19).
Entire studies have been written on the large number of child molestation cases, done by homosexuals. In their magazines, gays admit that one of their objectives in doing this is to increase the number of homosexuals.

Some of these studies were about homosexual school teachers. It is known that they prey on the children.
Aside from passion, there are two special reasons why gays do this: (1) By sodomizing children, they increase the number who will grow up to be homosexuals. (2) Children have less diseases to transmit. NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) has, as its goal, the removing of laws prohibiting gays from having sex with minors. In 1990, the age of consent for homosexual sex in Holland was lowered to 12!

The National Crime Survey reported that about 27% of rapes are homosexual. They have dramatically increased with the rise of the gay rights movement. This crime is twice as common in urban areas where gays congregate (C.W. Harlow, U.S. Dept. Justice, 1991, NCJ-126826).

A study of 518 mass murders in the U.S., from 1966 to 1983, revealed that 350 (68%) of the victims were killed by those who practiced homosexuality (P. Cameron, Midwestern Psych. Assn., 1983)
31

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 03:29:06
#31 Flower of Scotland, Glasgow

Your Quote: "30 [Virginian]#@*%#$...The Pope is the head of Christendom.
He is the successor of St. Peter who as we know was the first Pope.
Read Matthew Chapter 16 verses 16-19."

Answer: The Pope is neither the head of Christendom nor the successor of St. Peter who was never a Pope.

Matthew Chapter 16 verses 16-19 has been misinterpreted by the Roman Catholic Church since 590 AD when they invented the notion of a pope who was over all other bishops.

Before 590 AD the Bishop of Rome was on the same level as all other bishops or "overseers" in the church.

The Apostle Peter did not consider himself as above any of the other apostles.

Read 1 Peter 1:1: 5:1-3 which states:

"Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ...The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God, nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock" (1 Peter 1:1; 5:1-3).

The Apostle Peter never lorded it over the flock as the papal hierarchy has done since it came into being 600 years afterward.

Matthew Chapter 16 does not say that Peter was "the rock" upon which Christ would build His Church, but that He would build it upon the statement that Peter has just made that "Thou [Jesus] are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

The Greek word for Peter is "Petros" and is a masculine person. However, the Greek word for "rock" is "petra" and is a feminine word that refers not to Peter, a person, but to Peter's statement that Jesus was the Christ.

It makes no sense that Jesus would say to Mr. Rock (Peter, masculine) that He would build His Church on Miss Rock (rock/foundation, feminine).

The correct translat
32

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 03:54:05
#33 Virginian,USA (cont'd)

The correct translation would contain two separate statements. The first is that Jesus is commending Peter, whose name, "Cephus," means "rock" or "pebble," for being the first to recognize the deity of Jesus as God's Christ.

The second part of His statement is that Jesus Christ would build His church on the rock or foundation of His deity and that the Gates of Hell would never overcome it.

Jesus Christ is "the Rock" and the foundation upon which His church is built and not on Peter, an apostle equal to the other apostles.

Therefore, the Pope in Rome is Head of the Roman Catholic Church and Head of State of Vatican City, but he is not the successor of Peter because Peter was never a Pope nor was Peter "the Rock" on which Jesus Christ built His Church.

Jesus Christ is the Head of Christendom and is the Rock and Foundation on which His Church rests...a firm foundation against which the Gates of Hell will never prevail.

Jesus Christ is the Head of Protestant Christians and not the Pope, as was stated previously.

Flower of Scotland, if you have any other questions regarding Protestant beliefs just send another post.

Kind regards,

Virginian
33

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 14:13:02
#35 James,,

Quote: "Jesus spoke to Peter in Aramaic, not Greek."

Answer: The Bible is translated from manuscripts written in Greek not Aramaic.

Are you suggesting that the Greek manuscripts of the Bible are incorrect?

34

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 14:45:56
#35 James,,

Quote: "...Matthew goes further, with Jesus giving Peter the 'keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.'"

Answer: The "keys" represent the ability and authority of Peter to proclaim God's plan of salvation of Jesus Christ building His Church on "the Rock" or foundation of His deity, not on the weak and fallible man Peter.

However, this authority was given not only to Peter but to all of the disciples of Jesus as seen in the following passage:

"At that hour the disciples came to Jesus...Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven" (Vss. 1, 18, Confraternity Version-Roman Catholic).

It is obvious that Jesus was not giving the plan of salvation to Peter alone but to all of His disciples when He commanded in Matthew 28:18-20:

"18-And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

"19-Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"20-teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age (Matthew 28: 18-20, New King James Version of the Bible)."












v
35

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 15:13:50
#35. James,, (cont'd)

Quote: "That Peter's authority was handed down to his successors was not doubted by the early church."

Answer: The Bible is the final authority in all matters regarding Christian doctrine, not any human being of whatever time.

Many early churchmen did not believe that any special authority was given to Peter. Augustine was just one.

Jesus Christ castigated the Pharisees for replacing God's commands with their "traditions" in many passages of the Bible.

One of the basic differences between Roman Catholic doctrine and that of the Protestant Christians is that the former (Roman Catholic) places final authority in "traditions" of the Roman Catholic churchmen, who often disagree on translations of the Holy Scriptures, while the latter (Protestant Christians) place all authority in the Bible as the Word of God.
36

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 15:54:39
#35. James,,(cont'd)

Quote: "The idea of papal authority by a long, long way predates 590 AD. Inh fact it goes back to the origins of the Church."

Answer: The bishop of Rome, Leo I, was declared the first pope in 451 AD at the Council of Chalcedon.

It was also at the Council of Chalcedon that it was declared that all previous bishops of Rome were declared popes retroactively so that it would appear that there was an unbroken line, or succession, of Roman popes over all Christian bishops.

However, the Eastern Christian and Russian Orthodox churches have never recognized the authority of the bishops of Rome as being the head of all the other bishops.

The Protestant Reformation settled the issue in the West of who Protestants claim as Head of the Christian Church...none other than "Jesus Christ, who sits on the right hand of God Almighty."

James, as you can see, only Roman Catholics believe that the Pope is the head of Christendom, a freedom won for you and others,through the grace of God, by Protestants.



37

Virginian,

USA 19/04/2008 16:25:02
#41. James,,

Suffice it to say, you and I will never convince one another regarding basic differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestant Christianity that have been debated and fought over since the papal system came into being.

Roman Catholics simply need to accept the fact that non-Roman Catholic Christians consider you to be in error, just as you declare them to be heretics.

It is obviously not possible that Roman Catholics and Protestants can ever "agree to disagree" for very long.

Each generation must debate the same issues for themselves...hopefully without resorting to the violence of the Roman Catholic Church against the Protestant Reformation.

Nontheless, the Bible commands Christians to defend the faith as it was delivered to Christ's Church, not doctrines of man-made traditions.

Kind regards,

Virginian
38

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 19/04/2008 20:17:48
33 Virginian..... Why is it that no two Protestant curches agree on the matter of scripture?i.e. Baptist to Methodist or Anglican to Presbyterian?
39

Alba Abú,

19/04/2008 20:18:31
#48 Oops! that should have been "churches"
40

Virginian,

USA 20/04/2008 01:42:31
#48 Alba Abu, Edinburgh

Quote: "33 Virginian....Why is it that no two Protestant churches agree on the matter of scripture? i.e. Baptist to Methodist or Anglican to Presbyterian?"

Answer: All Protestant churches agree that the Bible is the final authority in questions of doctrine and that Jesus Christ is the head of His church and the Holy Spirit is Christ's Mediator on earth.

Any distinctives a denomination might have such as methods of baptism or types of church government are "indifferent" as to their core beliefs essential to salvation.

All true Protestant Christian churches believe that Holy Scripture as found in the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, while writings of men, fathers of the church or traditions have no authority whatsoever in church matters.

41

Virginian,

USA 20/04/2008 01:54:32
#44,#45,#46,#47,#50,#51 James,,

James, I couldn't disagree more with all you have said.

Read John 8:31-32:

"31-Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

"32-And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free (John 8:31-32, King James version, The Bible)."
42

mary gold,

USA 20/04/2008 19:45:30
Virginian # 30 I m not confused about what is being discussed, friend. I am commenting on the mission of Benedicts pontificate, I can see however that you are afflicted with a great deal of biblical & Universal church confusion.
Biblical prooftexting is so unfortunate, it disregards so many passages that have SO MUCH meaning.
I love Our Lord, did he not say (paraphrasing here)
"You must eat my flesh & drink my blood or you will have NO LIFE IN YOU" (Wow!! the import of that comment is stunning ) Further Jesus says,"Whoever eats my flesh & drinks my blood I will raise him up on the last day" Jesus will raise us up on the last day !!
(again stunning) The only place on EARTH with the Flesh & blood of the Lord is the Universal Church.
Thank You Catholicism & orthodoxy for being so loyal to these biblical injunctions.
43

mary gold,

USA 21/04/2008 04:05:01
James, he may have been here & read further responses
under a cloak, so to speak.
Anyway it has been a lively & informative thread maybe other "readers" have benefited.
With regards to Virginian & others who post with disparaging comments about the Universal Church or the Holy Father, I just have to post a rebuttal,its practically in my blood as it appears to be with you.
Perhaps we can be the fortunate beneficiaries of Christs biblical comment regarding
"Who defends Me I will defend before the Father"
(of course its a paraphrase again but another wonderful promise!"
44

Virginian,

USA 21/04/2008 22:56:40
#58 mary gold,USA

Quote: "With regards to Virginian & others who post with disparaging comments about the Universal Church or the Holy Father,I just have to post a rebuttal,...Perhaps we can be the fortunate beneficiaries of Christs (sic) biblical comment regarding 'Who defends Me I will defend before the Father' (of course its (sic) a paraphrase again but another wonderful promise!)"

Answer:
mary gold, the verses you were thinking of are at Luke 12: 8-10 as follows:

"8-And I [Jesus] say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

"9-But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.

"10-And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."
***************************************************
The problem you have is that you are defending the Pope or the "Holy Father" in this instance and not defending Jesus Christ.
*****************************************************
You contend that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ while the Bible says that Christ's Mediator on earth is the Holy Spirit as stated at John 14: 23-26:

"23-Jesus answered and said to him, 'If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.'

"24-These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

"26-But the Helper (Gr. Parakletos), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you (John 14: 23-26, New King James version of the Bible)."
*******************************************************
According to Luke 12: 10 "...but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."

It appears from this reading that to say that the Pope, a human man, rather than the Holy Spirit, is the Mediator of Chr
45

Virginian,

USA 21/04/2008 23:15:45
#59 Virginian (cont'd)

According to Luke 12:10 "....but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."

It appears from this reading that to say that the Pope, a human man, rather than the Holy Spirit, is the Mediator of Christ would be to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Why would you think that you are going to be the beneficiary of the promises of Jesus Christ to those who defend Him?
46

Virginian,

USA 22/04/2008 00:19:31
#59 Virginian...Correction of John 14:24-25

Inadvertently omitted verse 24 and listed 25 in its place of John 14: 23-26 passage quoted which reads:

"24 He who does not love Me [Jesus Christ] does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

"25-These things I have spoken to you while being present with you (New King James version of the Bible)."
47

Virginian,

USA 22/04/2008 20:03:17
#62 James,,

Quote: "Any chance of those answers I asked for?"

Answer: No.
48

Virginian,

USA 22/04/2008 21:21:08
#62 James,,

Quote: "What do you think "the mediator of Christ" could possibly mean? It makes no sense at all."

Answer: James, you are absolutely correct, in this one instance, that the Mediator between God and man is none other than Christ Jesus.

What I should have written is that the Roman Catholic Church believes that the pope is the Vicar [in place] of Jesus Christ on earth.

The truth is that the Holy Spirit is the Vicar [in place] of Jesus Christ on earth because He rose from the dead and sits on the right hand of God the Father, making intercession for His elect.

According to Boettner:

"When the triple crown is placed on the head of a new pope at his "coronation" ceremony the ritual prescribes the following declaration by the officiating cardinal:

'Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns, and know that thou art the Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World, the Vicar of our Saviour Jesus Christ...' (National Catholic Almanac)."

Boettner goes on to write:

"The New York Catechism says:

'The pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...By divine right the pope has supreme and full power in faith and morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true Vicar of Christ, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.' (Loraine Boettner, "Roman Catholicism" p.127)."

A third quote by Boettner on page 127 says that "...pope Leo Xiii, in his encyclical, "The Reunion of Christendom" (1885), declared that the pope holds "upon this earth the place of God Almighty."

Now that I have corrected "Mediator" to "Vicar" it still holds true that to say the pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth rather than the Holy Spirit having that office
49

Virginian,

USA 22/04/2008 21:40:30
#64 Virginian (cont'd.)

Now that I have corrected "Mediator" to "Vicar" it still holds true that to say the pope, a human man, takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth rather than the Holy Spirit having that office, blasphemes against the Holy Spirit by saying that a mere man stands in the place of the Third Person of the Trinity who is deity.

Perhaps you can explain this concept, using Bible verses as proof, that the pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth rather than the Holy Spirit being the Vicar of Christ?

While you are at it, James, find one verse in the Bible that designates a "pope" or that says that the Apostle Peter was the "pope" of his fellow apostles.

Perhaps you might want to get your own copy of Loraine Boettner's book, "Roman Catholicism." It is well documented using writings of the Roman Catholic Church to substantiate everything said. (It would save a lot of tedious typing on my part and your endless nagging questions and quibbles.)

Everyone who wants to know about Roman Catholic thought and practice that differs from Bible-based Christianity should certainly obtain a copy.

Looking forward to hearing back from you. Get crackin' now.
50

Virginian,

USA 22/04/2008 22:30:16
#62. James,,

Quote: "What do you think "the mediator of Christ" could possibly mean? It makes no sense at all."

Answer: James, now that we've gotten straight that the Holy Spirit and not the pope is Jesus Christ's Vicar on earth, let's move on to the Roman Catholic concept that the Virgin Mary is the Mediatress between men and God.

Can it be that the masculine word "Mediator" being used rather than the feminine word "Mediatress" is what confused you?

Looking at Loraine Boettner's book, "Roman Catholicism", we learn all about this Mediatress from the book, "The Glories of Mary" by Bishop Alphonse de Liguori (1931 edition; Redemptorist Fathers, Brooklyn...) on pages 138-141.

Boettner quotes Liguori:

"Roman Catholic Church: "And she [Virgin Mary] is truly a mediatress of peace between sinners and God. Sinners receive pardon by...Mary alone' (pp. 82, 83)."

James, it appears that the Roman Catholic Church considers the pope the Vicar of Christ on earth and the Virgin Mary the Mediatress between men and God.

Unfortunately, James, at your #62 post you corrected my mistatement by quoting I Timothy 2:5 which states:

"For there is one God, and ONE Mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:5, King James version of the Bible)."

Well, now you're in a corner, aren't you? Not only does it say that Christ Jesus is the one Mediator and not Mary...it even says "Mediator" and not "Mediatress" that is used in the Douay Version of the Roman Catholic Bible.

Where are you James? Have you slunk from the field of battle just as Boettner came forward as champion? We're all waiting to hear your rebuttal.
51

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 16:05:08
#67 James,, 23/04/2008

Quote: "There is no Bible verse calling Peter, "Pope," but you must remember that "Pope" is simply a title.

Answer: Precisely, James...

"Pope" is simply a title in the Roman Catholic Church that has no warrant in the Bible and is not used in any other Christian church.



52

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 16:22:26
#67 James,, 23/04/2008

Quote: "The responsibility given to Peter is obvious. It was re-affirmed after the resurrection..."

Answer: James, you need to get Loraine Boettner's book, "Roman Catholicism," because he plainly shows how Peter was not the Head of the Apostles.

A lengthy quote should put this question of Peter's pre-eminence among his fellow apostles to rest once and for all.

Boettner explains:

"That no superior standing was conferred upon Peter is clear from the later disputes among the disciples concerning who should be greatest among them. Had such rank already been given, Christ would simply have referred to His grant of power to Peter. Instead we read:

"And they came to Capernaum: and when he was in the house he asked them, What were ye reasoning on the way? But they held their peace: for they had disputed one with another on the way, who was the greatest. And he sat down, and called the twelve; and he saith unto them, If any man would be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all' (Mark 9:33-35)."

"And again:

'And there came near unto him James and John, the sons of Zebedee, saying unto him, Teacher, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall ask of thee. And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? And they said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and one on thy left hand, in thy glory....And when the ten heard it, they began to be moved with indignation concerning James and John. (To be continued)
53

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 16:39:20
#73 (Continued)

"....And when the ten heard it, they began to be moved with indignation concerning James and John. And Jesus called them unto him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they who are accounted to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great ones exercise authority over them. But it is not so among you: but whosoever would become great among you, shall be your minister; and whosoever would be first among you, shall be servant of all' (Mark 10:34-44)."

"It is interesting to notice that some of the church fathers, Augustine and Jerome among them, gave the Protestant explanation of this verse, understanding the "rock" to mean not Peter but Christ. Others, of course, gave the papal interpretation. But this shows that there was no "unanimous consent of the father," as the Roman Church claims, on this subject.(pp. 107-108, Loraine Boettner, "Roman Catholicism" The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company: Phillipsburg, 1962.ISBN: 0-87552-130-4)."

James, Boettner is able to substantiate from Holy Scripture all that he says about the subject of Peter not being a pope.

You, on the other hand, are unable to even find the word, "pope," in the Bible or any other verses that indicate that Peter was anything other than an equal with the other apostles.

How can you say that you have proven your point?
54

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 16:49:36
#74 Virginian (Correction of word quoted)

ERRATUM: Fourth paragraph from the bottom should read:

"But this shows that there was no "unanimous consent of the FATHERS [emphasis mine],as the Roman Church claims, on this subject."

"father" should read "fathers" (plural).






































55

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 19:07:47
#69. James,, 23/04/2008

Quote: "Mary, like all of the angels and saints is an intercessor, not mediator. As the Mother of God, Mary is the greatest of all saints and Queen of Heaven."

Answer:
James, I'll take the easy way out and use Boettner again to refute the above-stated quote.

Boettner states regarding Mary:

"The titles given Mary are in themselves a revelation of Roman Catholic sentiment toward her. She is called: Mother of God, Queen of the Apostles, Queen of Heaven, Queen of the Angels, The Door of Paradise, The Gate of Heaven, Our Life, Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, and many others which ascribe to her supernatural powers.

"All of those titles are false. Let us consider just two of them. When she is called "Queen of the Apostles," is that an apostolic doctrine? Where is it found? Certainly it is not in Scripture. When did the apostles elect Mary their queen? Or when was she appointed by God to be their queen?

"And the title, "Queen of Heaven," is equally false, or even worse. Heaven has no "queen." The only references in Scripture to prayers to the "queen of heaven" are found in Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-19, 25, where it is severely condemned as a heathen custom practiced by some apostate Jews. This so-called "queen of heaven" was a Canaanitish goddess of fertility, Astarte (plural, Ashtaroth)(Judges 2:13). How shameful to impose a heathen title on Mary, and then to venerate her as another deity! (pp. 141-143,Loraine Boettner, "Roman Catholicism" Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1962. ISBN: 0-87552-130-4)."

In his book, "Roman Catholicism," Boettner devotes a chapter to the many misrepresentations regarding the Virgin Mary in Roman Catholic doctrine. You would do well to read it for yourself.
56

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 20:25:58
#80 James,,23/04/2008

Quote: "When you have answered these questions, and commented on the points raised, we can then discuss why your latest posts are plain wrong."

Answer: Who put you in charge of this discussion?
57

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 20:30:46
#80 James,, 23/04/2008

James, do you dream of being the Pope of Posters?

58

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 20:32:43
#80 James,,23/04/2008

Perhaps, Pope James I ?
59

Virginian,

USA 23/04/2008 20:36:28
#80 James,,23/04/2008

Unless you get elected Poster Pope there is no reason for us to continue this discussion. Consider it closed.

Kind regards,

Virginian
60

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 01:48:04
#85 James,,23/04/2008

Quote: "I believe that you know in your heart that The Holy, Roman Catholic Church is the Church instituted by Christ and that Pope Benedict XVI is the successor of Peter, the rock on which Christ's Church is built."

Answer:
James, what I believe is found at Ephesians 1:20-23:

"20-which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

"21-far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

"22-And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to THE CHURCH,

"23-WHICH IS HIS BODY, THE FULLNESS OF HIM WHO FILLS ALL IN ALL [emphasis mine](New King James version of the Bible)."

As you can see James, if you will read the Bible, Christ's Church consists of the body of believers of whom Christ is the Head.

No mention is made of the earthly Roman Catholic Church whose head is a man,the Pope.
61

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 02:14:46
#85. James,,

Quote: "I shall pray that one day the Church will welcome you home."

Answer: St. Paul in Colossians 2 gave this admonition:

"8-Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

"9-For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

"10-and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

"18-Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

"19-and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

"20-Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--

"21-Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"

"22-which all concern things which perish with the using--according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

"23-These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh (Ephesians 2:8-10,18-23;New King James version of the Bible)."

James, I shall pray that you will have your eyes opened to see that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church of Christ and that the Body of Christ is composed of all those chosen by God (the elect) "from before the foundations of the earth."



62

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 03:46:37
James,

While we are on this subject about the Roman Catholic Church, it is worth mentioning that ALL of my family came to colonial America due to persecution of the Roman Catholic Church.

French Huguenot ancestors were nobility who saw their lands and estates confiscated and their lives forfeited if they were caught for the sole reason that they read the Bible in French. All records in churches were ripped out and destroyed so that they could not lay claim to titles or estates. They had fled France before the St. Bartholomew's Massacre of the Roman Catholic Church and settled in the American colonies in the 1600's. As you know, they were prominent in the American Revolution, far outweighing their numbers.

Dutch ancestors were among those hunted down because they were helping to translate the Bible into English and other vernacular languages. The Duke of Alva murdered over 18,000 Protestants in the Netherlands in a matter of months. Men who were even suspected of being Protestant were beheaded with a sword while women were buried alive.

Scottish Covenanter ancestors stood with John Knox in turning Scotland to Presbyterianism. Those who escaped to the American colonies were in the forefront of the American Revolution, termed the Presbyterian Revolution because of their greatest influence in the founding of the US.

Scotch-Irish ancestors had been through the Irish St. Bartholomew's Massacre by the Irish and the Siege of Derry. They also played a huge part in the founding of the US.

English ancestors were the great Puritans who settled Massachusetts and founded Harvard and Yale in order to train their ministers.

Knowing the true history of the Roman Church does not leave the well-informed a prey to its blandishments.

James, the chances of my "coming home to Rome" are zero. Don't waste your breath.
63

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 15:52:32
#89 James,,24/04/2008

Quote: "Virginian, I thought this discussion was closed?"

Answer: So why have you continued to post discussion, James?

Could it be that you are determined to have the last post...last word?

Do you think that by having the last post that you will have proved some kind of point?

What is amazing is that the Scotsman has not closed out the comments on this thread.
64

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 16:27:28
#89 James,,24/04/2008

This entire thread deals with "America Bursts into Song as the Pope Visits the White House."

The initial article deals with how the pope came to the US in an effort to gloss over the pedophile abusing priests scandels that have cost the Roman Catholic Church billions of dollars.

Any Protestant Christian would quote Scripture where Jesus Christ warned his followers that they could "know a tree by its fruit."

The obvious connection is that if the Roman Church hierarchy covered up the pedophile scandels...its fruit...then it must be a bad tree...the Roman Church.

Roman Catholic apologists would take the same Scripture and come up with an off the wall discussion about apples vs. organges.

Your Jesuitical sophistries in theological debate is directed at obscuring the real point of any discussion because you are defending an ultimately lost cause, the Roman Church against Jesus Christ.





65

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 16:51:55
#89, James,,24/04/2008

Quote: "STILL no response to #77, #78, #79?"

Answer: James, you have never responded to #28, #30, #31, #34, #36, #38, #39, #42, #42, #43, #52, #53, #59, #60, #61, #63, #64, #65, #66, #72, #73, #76, #81, #82, #83, #85, #86, #87, and #88.

If you will not respond to my posts then I shall not respond to your posts.




66

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 17:28:04
James, why have you not commented on my post at #88?

You do not want to recognize that the US was founded by Protestants, as I have amply substantiated from my family history alone.

Further, you refuse to face the idea that the pope showing up in the US and "talking forcefully" to our elected governmental representative, President Bush, is insulting to Americans.

The pope has NO jurisdiction in the US even if the American Roman Catholics do voluntarily place themselves under the man. The pope is "elected" by a mere handful of cardinals...he doesn't even represent the Roman Catholic "faithful."

To top it off, the pope made reference to how the American Indians and the black citizens have not always enjoyed equality with other Americans.

Since it was a pope during the Age of Exploration who divided up the globe so that Spain,Portugal and other Roman Catholic nations could invade, murder and enslave the indigenous natives of all of South and Central America and other lands colonized by Roman Catholic countries, his statement rings hollow.

It was also the Roman Catholic Church who supported the slave trade in which Spain and Portugal excelled. It was only after the Spanish Armada failed in invading England and sank into oblivion that England took over the slave trade and forced it on the American colonies because the crown made money off of the trade.

Virginia abolished the slave trade at the first opportunity after the Declaration of Independence...well before the greatly touted abolition of the slave trade in England.

The War Between the States was completely unnecessary as was seen in Great Britain where not only was the slave trade abolished but slave owners were paid reimbursements thanks to Gladstone whose father owned quite a few old slaves who could no longer work.

James, why don't you get yourself some good books on the Protestant Reformation? I'll be glad to recommend a few. You might want to start with "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" sin
67

Virginian,

USA 24/04/2008 17:36:13
#94 (Continued)

"James, why don't you get yourself some good books on the Protestant Reformation? I'll be glad to recommend a few. You might want to start with "Foxes's Book of Martyrs" since it documents in great detail exactly how each Protestant named was tortured and murdered by the Roman Catholic Inquisition and under which of their flimsiest excuses.

Oh, I forgot. You cannot have or read the King James version of the Bible or books about the Protestant Reformation because the pope won't let you.

You do have a problem.
68

Virginian,

USA 25/04/2008 02:41:13
James, Jesus Christ used the Holy Scripture as the final authority in settling disputes of the truth.

At Matthew 5:17-18:

"17-Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (King James version of the Bible)."

An additional example of Jesus using the Old Testament Scripture is in Matthew 4:4 when Satan was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil"

When the tempter told Jesus to prove that he was the Son of God by turning stones into bread, Jesus did as follows:

"4-But He answered and said, "It is written [Deut. 8:3-Old Testament], 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

James, why do you discount the idea that the Holy Scripture of the Bible is the Final Authority for a Christian?
69

Virginian,

USA 25/04/2008 02:55:12
James, Paul's advice to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:13-17 is also proof that the Bible is all the Christian needs for salvation...not man-made traditions.

2 Timothy 3:13-17:

"13-But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

"14-But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them.

"15-and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

"16-All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

"17-that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (King James version of the Bible)."

James, why would you think that the Bible is not enough to tell you what you must do to go to heaven if you will only be diligent in reading it for yourself.

You do not need a churchman to interpret it for you because it is only the Holy Spirit who can open your mind and heart to the truth of the Word of God.

Man-made traditions are useless and worse because they replace the Word of God with the wisdom of men.
70

Virginian,

USA 25/04/2008 03:25:26
The book of Revelation has much that shows the final authority of the Bible.

Chapter 22:8-9 shows how Christians are forbidden to worship or pray to angels:

"8-Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

"9-Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

If Peter was the pope and head of his fellow apostles and the pope is Peter's successor, why would God have given John this opportunity to write the final book of the Bible? And if it is right to worship angels, why did the angel tell John to only worship God?

Quote: Nowhere in the Bible is it claimed that only the Bible is to be believed."

Answer: James, at Revelation 22:18-19 it does say this:

"18-For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;

"19-and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (King James version of the Bible)."

James, I don't know about you, but it is quite clear to me as a Christian that the Bible is the final authority for Christianity.

To add to or to take away from the "words of the book" shall have all the plagues added to him and to have the Book of Life, the holy city and other things written in the book taken away from him.

I rest my case.





71

Virginian,

USA 25/04/2008 03:34:49
#98-Virginian-Correction of word

Line 10 should read:"...when JESUS [not Satan] was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil..."

Sorry about that!

72

Virginian,

USA 26/04/2008 16:46:54
#107 James,,25/04/2008

Quote: "...was the idea of a US President speaking as a political equal with the Pope...I don't think you can handle the fact that the Pope is regarded as the spiritual leader of the Church by over 1 billion [Roman Catholic] Christians worldwide."

Answer: Well, yes, it is quite absurd for the pope to speak to any US President as a political equal.

For starters lets start with a few comparisons and contrastions:


1.President Bush owns his Texas ranch, "Prarie Chapel Ranch," comprised of 1,583 acres (6.4 sq. km)
vs.
Pope Benedict does not own the Vatican compound which is comprised of a mere 110 acres or 0.2 of a sq. mile.


2.President Bush is the duly elected (twice) representative of the entire population of the United States of America that is at approximately 303,000,000 people in 2008.
vs.
Pope Benedict is a non-hereditary, elected monarch that rules over the Vatican with a population of about 800 people.

1.President Bush is the elected President of the most powerful nation on earth.
vs.
Pope Benedict is the head of the smallest [city-] state in land mass and population.


3.President Bush is the Commander-in-Chief of all the US armed forces.
vs.
Pope Benedict is the head of a the Vatican's 1,506 Swiss bodyguards.

4. President Bush is the secular head of the oldest democracy within a representative republican form of government in existence.
vs.
Pope Benedict is the clerical head of a theocratic city's civil government which consists of a lay governor and a council who are all appointed by and answer to the Pope himself.

5. President Bush leaves legislation and law interpretation to Congress and the Supreme Court.
vs.
Pope Benedict presides over the seat of the central government of a church...the Roman Catholic Church...where the law is the Canon Law of the church and the court is composed of Roman Catholic clergymen.


73

Virginian,

USA 26/04/2008 17:29:24
#108 (continued)

Oops! Pushed the "Post Comment" button instead of the "Preview Comment" button...which explains why the numbers are off.

James, there are already 6 reasons listed "just for starters" for why any pope is not the equal of any US President.

The oft-repeated nonsense about the pope being the head of "1 billion Roman Catholics worldwide" is irrelevent to the issue of the pope acting as if he has any jurisdiction over immigration or any other issues in the US.

Only the number of US citizens who can legally vote is relevant. Roman Catholics comprise only about 25% of the US electorate as opposed to about 56% of Protestants. That means that 75% of the US electorate is non-Roman Catholic.

With the vast numbers of US Roman Catholics leaving the church due to the sexual abuse scandel...also worldwide...it is difficult to figure that these numbers have stayed anywhere close to 1 billion worldwide, if it ever was that many.

The reason the pope showed up in the US was to patch things up with American Roman Catholics such as SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) because he cannot find enough American