Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


3,700 Royal Bank of Scotland staff face the axe as break-up revealed

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 03 November 2009
HUNDREDS of Scottish jobs are under threat, after Royal Bank of Scotland announced plans to shed 3,700 posts at branches across the UK.
Union officials have warned that the job losses over the next two years will disproportionately hit Scotland, where the majority of RBS branches are.

The news came ahead of a statement today by Chancellor Alistair Darling, in which he is expected to announce plans to pump a further £25 billion into RBS and £5bn into Lloyds.

The extra funding is on top of the £37bn put into the banks last year to stop them collapsing. It means the government's share in RBS will rise from 70 per cent to 84 per cent.

The additional funding will come as part of an overall shake-up, which will see assets from both RBS and Lloyds sold off and Northern Rock broken up in the next three to four years.

The move has been forced through following pressure from EU commissioner Neelie Kroes, who has asked for the break-up to boost competition in the UK banking market.

RBS is set to have to sell its insurance offshoots, Churchill, Direct Line and Green Flag. It is also expected to shed 312 RBS-branded branches in England and six NatWest branches in Scotland, as well as part of its investment banking business – more than it first envisaged.

Lloyds Banking Group is likely to have to sell Cheltenham & Gloucester, its Lloyds TSB network in Scotland and its Intelligent Finance online bank.

Last night, leading Scottish investment banker Ben Thomson broke cover to declare his interest in a plan to buy up TSB, to create an independent Scottish financial institution.

Virgin is interested in looking at some of the assets, while Tesco, Santander and National Australia Bank are also possible suitors.

RBS may insure up to £280bn under the government's Asset Protection Scheme, less than the initial agreed figure of £325bn. The deal could free the bank from the insurance scheme within a year and could see it dodge the upfront fee of £17.5bn. In return, it would have to agree to absorb £60bn of losses on assets insured by the scheme, rather than just under £20bn, which was part of the original proposal.

The 3,700 job losses announced by RBS will come from its branches across the UK. They will be accompanied by an increase in internet banking and the installation of modern cash-point machines that allow people to conduct personal banking without assistance.

Unions say the cuts will affect the 652 RBS branches more than the 1,625 RBS-owned NatWest ones, because of its more branch-centred customer services. And with 340 RBS branches in Scotland and 312 in England and Wales, the cuts are expected to be worst north of the Border.

Unite expects that axe to fall mostly on branch telephonists, and that will also have a greater impact on RBS. Currently, RBS takes most of its customer calls at individual branches, while NatWest mainly uses call centres.

A spokesman for Unite said: "We expect these cuts to affect branches across the UK as a whole, but we believe Scotland may get a disproportionate hit as a result."

The union privately believes there may be a "rush for the door" in some parts of RBS's empire because of its problems. But it is worried about compulsory redundancies, especially as RBS has refused to rule them out. It also fears staff in rural branches, who may be less willing to go, could be worst affected.

Unite national officer Rob MacGregor described the axing of front-line branch staff as "madness". He went on: "Essentially, RBS has decided that front-line costs should be cut, to fund the crisis caused by the City bankers."

RBS said that it had started a consultation period and that there would be no job losses until May 2010.

Brian Hartzer, chief executive of RBS's UK Retail, Wealth Management and Ulster Bank Group, said the job losses were "regrettably necessary".

He said: "We need to do better for all our customers and shareholders by modernising the way we operate as a bank.

"We have 30 per cent more staff carrying out administrative duties per customer than our competitors, and they spend less than half their time dealing with customers – we can and must do better. We have under-invested in our branches and customer infrastructure at a time when people are changing how they bank and changing what they expect their bank to do for them."

Finance secretary John Swinney welcomed a commitment by RBS to minimise compulsory redundancies, but he described the announcement as "disappointing".

He promised to engage with RBS to identify appropriate intervention. "If necessary, we will concentrate on ensuring that every individual obtains the full support of government agencies to help them find alternative employment or upskilling opportunities," he said.

"Through our Partnership Action for Continuing Employment initiative, we will focus on keeping people in work or giving them skills to develop their careers."

But he also insisted: "Scotland continues to have real strengths in financial services, with recent announcements from Tesco Banking and Ensure giving us cause for optimism."

However, Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Tavish Scott said: "It doesn't matter what the Chancellor or the First Minister say, or how big the taxpayers' investment is. Every taxpayer, not just in Scotland but across the UK will wonder what their money is being used for as thousands of banking jobs continue to be lost."

He added: "We warned that the banking shambles would have a massive impact on the ordinary men and women in the branches in Scotland."

Scottish Labour leader Iain Gray said: "We will work with the unions, and if there are any job losses that are not voluntary, RBS must fully justify them. It is crucial that the Scottish Government sits down with RBS as quickly as possible to see what contribution they can make to mitigate any job losses."

Last night, RBS's share price had dropped 3.27p, or 7.8 per cent, to 38.65p, following the jobs announcement.

Jonathan Jackson, head of equities at Killik and Co in London, predicted more turbulence. He said: "Uncertainty over the path of economic recovery, combined with a lack of visibility over the potential for further credit losses, means an investment in either RBS or Lloyds remains very high-risk, and we would expect both stocks to continue to exhibit a high degree of volatility over the next few days."

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Traquìr,

Alba 03/11/2009 00:02:33
Any better ways that RBS could have saved money ?

Indeed. Perhaps Brown will for once live up to his word and stop the reported massive bonuses in the pipeline for RBS.

"Banking analysts say the bank(RBS) is on course to pay out as much as £4 billion in pay and bonuses this year. "

"Senior traders and bankers would get much more, with some expecting between £1 million and £5 million"

see - tinyurl.com/yj6ze7n

Or perhaps Brown could put some control on the obscene new salaries and guaranteed bonuses being created.

"Stephen Hester is poised to earn about £10 million"

see - tinyurl.com/yhvqnw2

"New bonus bonanza at RBS despite promises to rein in pay"

"Royal Bank of Scotland has hired dozens of City high-flyers on bumper no-strings-attached bonus deals, in defiance of its promises to rein in profligate pay."

"City workers will see their bonuses soar by 50 per cent to £6bn this year, according to a study by the Centre for Economics and Business Research."

see - tinyurl.com/yb2xn2t

It would appear that Gordon Brown is following the advice of one of his top advisers to the letter.

"A senior economic adviser to Gordon Brown said the City of London was all-important to the Government and “the rest of the country can be turned over to tourism”"

see - tinyurl.com/db5axr

Union dividend galore, well at least for London yet again.
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 00:02:42

On BBC2 Newsnight, it was said about 700 jobs will go in Scotland, on the face of it, we got off lightly.




3

Royster,

03/11/2009 00:36:51
So this is the RBS that the Nats said was going to make Edinburgh an international finance centre to rival London - along with HBOS. How times have changed. Bailed out by the British taxpayer and Scotland left with the TSB. More or less puts the Nats hubris into perspective. This and the 'arc of prosperity'. All talk and short trousers.
4

Frank Galvin,

03/11/2009 00:52:18
Then again, Royster Doyster, your point is lost when considering that RBS/HBOS were part of a UK regime.

Perhaps without the 'union dividend' both banks would not have been the major players they were. But it's unfair to then lay all the subsequent blame on Scotland's door.

RBS/HBOS was and is a UK institution.

It is not only Scottish companies that have received assistance to stay afloat.
5

Traquìr,

Alba 03/11/2009 01:37:04
Hmm, I see the Brit Nats true to form a celebrating with glee the jobs losses and troubles of a major Scottish company. Certainly shows where their loyalties are as was demonstrated by other 'Scottish' comrades.

"Labour’s glee at the fall of HBOS risks backfiring"

"SCOTTISH LABOURITES at their conference in Manchester last week were practically punching the air at the collapse of HBOS"

see tinyurl.com/5zlh79
6

WeeGirlie,

03/11/2009 01:47:58
How curious, no mention of Salmond. Isn't he in charge up here?

He had the leadership skills to head for flooded Aberdeenshire so, an intervention for RBS alla Diageo, anyone?

Or has Mr Irrelevant learned his lesson?
7

WeeGirlie,

03/11/2009 01:58:01
-6
Britain savced the Scottish banks and tens of 000s of direct and indirect jobs, as well as Edinburgh's reputation as a major financial centre.

Where was Mr Irrelevant?
8

Royster,

03/11/2009 02:03:05
#8. Mr Irrelevant had great plans to run Scotland like some highly-geared hedge fund... Just like Iceland. A country in now which even McDonalds cannot run a profitable business. Yes, Scottish savers bailed out by the British taxpayer and the Labour Party. If the SNP had had their way, there would be literally nothing, I repeat nothing, in your bank account.
9

Vaward,

03/11/2009 03:49:21
#5 "RBS/HBOS was and is a UK institution."

But all the oil is Scottish, no?

Be interesting to see how the money gets paid back post independence.
10

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/11/2009 04:05:09
#8 Wee Girlie

Excusing the fact that you know nothing about the subject and continue to talk keetch, let me set you straight.

"Britain savced the Scottish banks and tens of 000s of direct and indirect jobs, as well as Edinburgh's reputation as a major financial centre."

1. These banks have not been saved, they have only gone into slow motion bankruptcy.

2. All those 000's of Jobs are continuing to be lost as this article points out.

3. If they had been prudently regulated like the Banks in Canada or Australia they would not be in this mess in the first place.

4. They are in trouble because the Labour Government in Westminster decided on a policy of "light touch" financial regulation to make London the dominant
financial centre in Europe.

5. Edinburgh will never reach its potential as a financial centre as long as it remain part of this London centric model.

11

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 04:17:01
#5 Frank

Yes, RBS/HBOS were part of a UK regime. But in an independent Scotland they almost certainly would have been under a Scottish regime.

And, considering Salmond was just as clueless as the Brown government about what was coming a year ago, instead of a UK bailout we would have had Salmond off to the IMF with his begging bowl.
12

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 04:25:17
Kmpung,

Like it or lump it, the banking system was saved from collapse by the UK government. That's not me offering them praise. Any govenment in the same position would have done the same. The difference is that an independent Scottish government would never have managed to raise the billions required for this.

As for your point about jobs being lost, RBS has shed around 10% of it's workforce. How many would that have been if it was allowed to collapse?

What you predict about slow motion bankruptcy and future job losses is all just speculation. The fact is that RBS is still going (albeit on life support) and it still has 90% of it's workforce.
13

,

03/11/2009 04:25:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 05:06:58
Slow motion bankruptcy mode, good phrase, and telling.I feel sorry for all those bank employees who are being shown the door. The top peoples' bonuses does seem pretty grotesque.If the banks are still on the way to ruin, who is going to forecast the date? 2010? Now off topic, if Alex Salmond had NOT shown up in flooded Aberdeenshire yesterday, there would have been an uproar. He can't win.
15

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 03/11/2009 05:53:53
The idea that wee Scotland would have to roll up to the IMF pawnshop with Scottish Oil and Scotch Whisky, whereas the super-wealthy U.K. would not need to is rubbish. The Labour government is printing money and devaluing those very same assets in the very same way. The difference is that the U.K. government is the cause of these problems and although we all fell for it at the time, hindsight has shown where the problems lay and who was to blame.
16

Julian.,

edinburgh 03/11/2009 06:14:06
#16

Sorry, your point doesn't make sense. The UK government hasn't rolled up to the IMF. The reserves and borrowing power of an independent Scotland would never have been enough to bail out RBS/HBOS without IMF assistance.

And the idea these banks wouldn't have failed under an independent Scotland is fantasy. Salmond was praising the strength of these banks weeks before they collapsed.
17

Royster,

03/11/2009 06:20:28
#16. How is the UK government responsible for the Lehman Bros fiasco?
18

Anna nexr door,

03/11/2009 06:50:48

17, many banks in many countries suffered losses, why should Scotland have been different? Also Norway’s banks did not suffer near as anything as much, but then again the country is independent. Brown let the banks off the leash, that’s why it all went out of control.
Salmond, good though he is, he’s not a clairvoyant
Also the principle that Scotland would not be better off independent does not change. Scotland has a lot going for it, but it could do a lot better if it was left to run its own affairs.

19

fife runner,

03/11/2009 06:52:05
workers again take the can for greedy ineffective executives and traders. Just like RM workers are taking stick form some for Adam Croziers idiocy
20

Royster,

03/11/2009 07:06:32
#19. Well I would say exactly the opposite. Large countries like Germany, the UK and France have ridden out the crisis much better than small ones such as Ireland, Lithuania and Iceland. When it comes to borrowing money, the larger the economy, the better. It's a zero sum game. Norway had to lend $55bn to 4 Norwegian commercial banks.
21

Laird o' Glenrothes,

03/11/2009 07:21:42
#20.....

The RM workers are getting stick because they don't want to modernise and get themselves out of the dark ages. One of my mates is a postie.... he gets to finish delivering his round then go home, regardless of how many hours are left of his shift. He can get the nikes on, run around a few streets then be back home for breakfast! Good eh!

As for all this cr ap written in some in the posts in this site (as usual), why are some people so scared of independance? As correctly stated in previous posts, this is a UK wide banking disaster, not just Scotlands. We're not a wee country who's made a huge mistake and run back to London cap in hand. Maybe RBS is based up here, but it also has big centres down there too.

This country suffers from a massive inferiority complex, no forward thinking, nowt. We've had a labour government since 1997 who's knackered pensions for everyone (not, that's gonna be a HUGE problem in the future). It looks likely that the Tories will be in power soon. There's another disaster for Scotland. "Just call me Dave" can spout all he wants about the Union.... the Tories are bad news for Scotland.

And as for Scotlands oil, where's the profits gone? To fund a welfare state that's been crippling this country for years! And no-one's got the balls to do anything about it. Too many people are allowed to retire from school and live on benifits all their lives.

Here ends the rant!!!


22

Royster,

03/11/2009 07:24:54
#22. Not the oil. The Union has been around for hundreds of years and has kept Scotland free; oil has only been a factor since the 1970s and most of that time the price was cr#p.
23

Reaper the Whirlwind,

Dublin 03/11/2009 07:27:50
Latest Score:

RBS/Lloyds: £54bn - Tax Payers: More Unemployment & Misery.
24

Ewan Randall,

03/11/2009 07:37:56
(#7) – (WeeGirlie) –If you were in Mr Salmond’s position and faced with the flooding in Aberdeenshire and these job losses at RBS which would you have taken as top priority?
25

Linda,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 07:48:33
Royster # 3

Scotland alone could never
have mounted a £1.3 trillion banking
bailout after the collapse of HBOS
and Royal Bank of Scotland. But in reality
an independent Scotland never would have been
required to deal with it alone. Most
of RBS's branches are in England and
called the Nat West. And over 90% of HBOS mortgages
and corporate loans,
especially the more toxic ones - are also south
of the border. Both banks may have
name plates in Edinburgh, but they
are an integral part of a global financial
centre called the City of London.
Any London government would have
had to include the Scottish banks in
the banking bailout because of the
significance of these banks for the
Rest of U K. As for quantitative easing and
interest rates, these are, of course, set
by the Bank of England or perhaps by a stronger
Central European Bank.
26

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek Australia 03/11/2009 07:51:43
Its the same not matter where you live, the FATCATS make the mess and at the worst walk away with a huge Golden Handshake, 3700 loose their jobs to pay for the clean-up.
27

Oldhabits,

Bristol 03/11/2009 07:52:24
#2

Charles, I am surprised that anyone leaning to the left like yourself would have thought that losing 700 jobs was getting off lightly!!? Is that just simple arithmetic in comparison with the total of 3,700? I'm sure the bonuses for top staff could be used to keep them in employment and I am well to the right of yourself.

Perhaps it is that you have never stood in the dole queue yourself?
28

Linda,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 08:00:19
Examples of how Gordon Brown failed to regulate the financial sector properly:

Brown’s recession as a result of his lack of regulation of the Banks will result in cuts of £2 billion a year to future Scottish government budgets.

In a speech Gordon Brown gave to the CBI Conference in 2005 he called for "limited" regulation and even suggested whether there should be regulation at all.

“The better, and in my opinion the correct, modern model of regulation – the risk based approach - is based on trust in the responsible company, the engaged employee and the educated consumer, leading government to focus its attention where it should: no inspection without justification, no form filling without justification, and no information requirements without justification, not just a light touch but a limited touch.

The new model of regulation can be applied not just to regulation of environment, health and safety and social standards but is being applied to other areas vital to the success of British business: to the regulation of financial services and indeed to the administration of tax. And more than that, we should not only apply the concept of risk to the enforcement of regulation, but also to the design and indeed to the decision as to whether to regulate at all. In the new legislation we will publish before Christmas we will make this risk based approach a statutory duty of the regulators."

The resignation of Sir James Crosby– one of the prime ministers key advisors - followed revelations that when he was chief executive of bank HBOS he sacked a whistleblower who warned that banks were heading for disaster. Sir James was knighted on the recommendation of the UK government, and later appointment as deputy chairman of the FSA.

The warnings by the HBOS whistle blower reflect similar warnings given to the FSA and the Prime Minister about Icelandic banks months before the UK Government took any action - and which is now seen as being so heavy handed it
29

Oldhabits,

Bristol 03/11/2009 08:33:28
The fact that more public money i.e. £25bn is required to be pumped into RBS, must surely be additional proof that Fred Goodwin and his fellow directors knew of further massive losses to come when they issued the prospectus to raise £2.00 a share from existing shareholders.

Why should the 3,700 lose their jobs to pay for both Fred Goodwin's and Gordon Brown's mistakes?
30

The Ayrshire Bard,

03/11/2009 08:37:39
Why is it that everything that happens in Scotland has to be turned into a slanging match between the Unionists and the Nats. The banking fiasco was largely the fault of the senior management of the individual banks, lured by the prospect of easy money and big bonuses That it all fell apart at the seams is an international problem, not just a local one, no different in some respects to what has happened to businesses outside the world of banking. Scotland was once a leading player in the field of engineering but things have moved away from that base as well. The sad fact is that the world has changed dramatically in the past 20 years and Scotland, in common with England, is no longer a leading player on the world stage.
31

Proghead,

Embra 03/11/2009 08:52:38
I hate to see anyone put out of work, it's happened to me twice. However, I think the fact they are being forced to sell parts of their operations is a good move for a variety of reasons. The taxpayer's bailout HAS to be paid back. The introduction of new players into the retail sector like Tesco or Virgin is going to bring in fresh competition and can only benefit the consumer. The same consumer, remember, who has been screwed by charges for years, then had to bail the baks out. Ther will be jobs for people in those new banks The system couldn't be allowed to crash, for sure, but the RBS is close to death on a weekly basis, so a garage sale of some of their assets will ultimately help it to survive.
32

thinking,

Scotland 03/11/2009 08:53:40
RBS said '"We have 30 per cent more staff carrying out administrative duties per customer than our competitors, and they spend less than half their time dealing with customers'
Surely if they have 30% more staff than competitors then they need to shed those 30% to survive. It will be hard on those who lose their jobs but it retains the jobs of 70%.
#31 I agree with you. The banks brought this on themselves. Those that stuck to proper banking have not needed a bail out.
33

Tynietiger,

03/11/2009 09:17:04
Banks brought it upon themselves but encouraged by Gordon Brown's lack of regulation.

Speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP, to Mansion House (20th June 2007 from HM Treasury Web Site)
Over the ten years that I have had the privilege of addressing you as Chancellor, I have been able year by year to record how the City of London has risen by your efforts, ingenuity and creativity to become a new world leader.
I congratulate you Lord Mayor and the City of London on these remarkable achievements, an era that history will record as the beginning of a new golden age for the City of London.
And I believe the lesson we learn from the success of the City has ramifications far beyond the City itself - that we are leading because we are first in putting to work exactly that set of qualities that is needed for global success:
And I believe it will be said of this age, the first decades of the 21st century, that out of the greatest restructuring of the global economy, perhaps even greater than the industrial revolution, a new world order was created.

34

,

03/11/2009 09:19:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Farmernot,

03/11/2009 09:22:02
Mr Salmond is very quiet on this......unlike his Diageo rant......this affects small branches everywhere in Scotland but I suppose its not worth his while for the odd job here and there.....pathetic showboatman
36

ecosseman,

glasgow 03/11/2009 09:28:58
THE BANKING PROBS WHERE CAUSED BY GREEDY LONDON WANTING MORE & MORE THEN BANG,BROONS GREEDY BUBBLE BURST.

YOU LABOUR SCUM JUST HANDLE OUR SNP LEADER,CAN YOU.

THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND AINT STUPID,THEY KNOW WHO TO BLAME FOR THIS DISASTER-YOU LABOUR SCUM.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
37

,

03/11/2009 09:30:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

,

03/11/2009 09:35:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

Nelson51,

Newcastle 03/11/2009 09:56:16
Victory (for a crooked, corrupt and discredited government) I saw this headline at the local news stand. Must be our Labour government, can we expect to see some MP's jailed ?. Don't bank on it.
40

Darien,

Panama 03/11/2009 10:02:51
The union began with a bust bank, and is ending the same way. But it is perfidious albion that is bust this time around, not Scotland.

Scotland still has a trade surplus which will enable our nation to recover, aided by concerted action from an independent government. The rump of UK plc has only a widening trade deficit, a rapidly collapsing high-debt economy, and few natural resources.

Best of luck to them. They'll need it.
41

The Strategist,

03/11/2009 10:04:57
Had Scotland been independent already then it is quite likely that our economy - like that of most sensible modern countries except the UK - would have been more balanced and considerably less dependent on financial services with more high tech, value adding companies as they have in Norway.

It's also likely Scotland would have emulated Norway in having a national oil/gas/energy company which as has happened in Norway would have lead to a larger number of indigenous service and manufacturing companies.

In his recent report on energy security Malcolm Wicks MP admitted the UK doesn't have a major industrial base in the energy sector. That can be counted as a major industrial failure but one which has impacted negatively on Scotland in particular.

One of the consquences of that is that Scottish Power (Spanish owned) are in the process of doing a deal with a Norwegian company to develop their tidal turbine system.

I really don't see why anyone could see this as an acceptable situation.




42

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 10:11:02
39 Big Jack Spratt
"RBS fell for the con, thinking it would make a quick buck. So did ALL the other UK banks including Barclays."

That is probably true but it is also something of an oversimplification. RBS compounded the problem by taking over ANB Amro at a high price on what now appears to be dodgy funding.

Barclays made the initial offer for ABN Amro but RBS then topped this offer. Barclays walked away and did want to pay any more. The result is now that RBS has had to be bailed out with £billions of govt bought equity while Barclays did not. RBS was a victim of its own overambition
43

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 10:16:50
42 Darien
"Scotland still has a trade surplus"

Is that a trade surplus with the world outside the UK or an overall trade surplus including trade with the rest of the UK?

What is the source of your info?
44

Proghead,

Embra 03/11/2009 10:17:42
#39, Jack Spratt

You're lucky not to have been hit by charges. In answer to your point about RBS being close to death on a weekly basis, my sources for that are inside the bank, not the media or government. Point Ugly George makes on #44 is true also, Goodwin's hubris during the ABN Amro fiasco is one of the major reasons they needed bailed. Why should the taxpayer fork out for stupid business decisions ? If we did that with everyone where would we be ? If RBS are making billions as you claim, surely there would be no need for a fire sale.
45

,

03/11/2009 11:04:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

Proghead,

Embra 03/11/2009 11:07:01
#47

Spot on Noble ! Let 'em fail, let prospectors pick up the pieces and restart.
47

,

03/11/2009 11:12:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
48

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 11:17:39
47 Noble negro
Before you start calling others "imbeciles" and "fools" you should really make sure that you are aware of the details.

I am not a fan of Gordon Brown and I am not defending him but your assertions are inaccurate. The govt has not "spent" £1trillion on the banks. They bought £37bn of equity in them in terms of shares. These can be sold again at the prevalent market rate. If this were done today there would be a loss on RBS af about £7bn and a smaller loss on Lloyds.

Other money was set aside in the form of loan guarantees but that is not spending - it is just a means of ensuring transactions contiue and the money is recouped.

"entire banking and financial system are insolvent"

That is not the case. There are still companies operating who are making a profit. why are Tesco Finance and Virgin Finance expanding their operations?
49

All the good names are gone,

03/11/2009 11:17:56
EU decision people. "The sales have been demanded by the European Commission to safeguard competition concerns after the two were bailed out by the UK government."
50

,

03/11/2009 11:18:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
51

Liz,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 11:22:41
#42
I think you will find that ALL UK taxpayers and their Grandchildren will be paying for the recent bailouts for a very long time. Scotland will not be allowed to simply walk away from this mess. After all it was not too long ago when RBS was being trumpeted as proof that Scotland could become a world player in finance, funny how the Nationalists are no longer using it as something worth bragging about. Add to that it was a Scotsman who was in charge of the Treasury and drove this unsustainable credit boom I think we will need to show a wee bit of humility - as does he, but he is too busy 'saving the world' to apologise to us all.
52

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 11:23:24
47 Noble Negro
PS
In terms of the "entire banking and financial system are insolvent" both Barclays and HSBC made profits of over £3bn for half year to June 2009.

When you make such blatantly ill-informed assertions, do you feel it is approriate to call others "imbeciles"?
53

,

03/11/2009 11:26:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
54

,

03/11/2009 11:28:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

,

03/11/2009 11:30:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 11:39:58
56 Negro
So you are another of those who resorts to abuse and insults when your assertions are proven to be incorrect. You agreed that there could be a loss of up to £37bn on the share equity of the banks. How does that equate to £1trillion.

You still keep making them. Consider your comment "They won't lend money because they're asset to deposit ratios prove they are bankrupt"

The asset/deposit ratio of HSBC is only 79%.

As far as "printing press" providing a stimulus is concerned, has this not been use to purchse govt bonds.
57

,

03/11/2009 11:42:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

,

03/11/2009 11:50:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 11:51:13
57 Noble negro
"The only industrial asset that is bailing out the insolvent financial system is North Sea Oil"

Really. Check any budget from the last 10 years and you will see that oil revenues come to at most 1 or 2% of UK govt expenditure and that total sales of oilgas amount to less than 3% of GDP.

So, to summarise you are claiming that £1trillion of of taxpayers money has been spent on the banks and that this is being bailed out by tax revenues which amount to approx 1% of this per annum. And you accuse others of talking "rubbish"
60

,

03/11/2009 11:54:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
61

,

03/11/2009 12:05:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 12:13:55
60 Noble Negro
Let's see then. You are claiming that HSBC's stated asset/ratio deposit of 79% is false as they are hiding toxix assets from the auditors. According to you they are basically insolvent.

Moreover you state that anyone with "half a brain" can see this. Well there must be at least a few people in the world with such an asset. In which case why have HSBC not been rumbled with a consequent collapse in its share price.
63

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/11/2009 12:16:08
#13 Julian

" The difference is that an independent Scottish government would never have managed to raise the billions required for this."

The Billions where required because of poor regulation. Which may not have been the case if Scotland had been Independent.

The General idea was to recapitalize the bank with Government Money to keep the bank a float.

In a proper bankruptcy the company is protected from claims by its creditors and allowed to continue to operate while a financial reorganization takes place.

In the case of RBS this could have included having a NIL value placed on existing shares and the bondholders being forced to swap their bonds for equity. This would have solved the problem without Government Intervention. All debts turned into equity, end of problem.

It is also interesting to note that if Scotland had been a separate country from the rest of the UK that the Scottish Bank would have been the problem of the Scottish Government while its subsidiary operating in the UK would have been London's problem to solve.

64

malcyh,

03/11/2009 12:21:50
No regulation by the regulators set up by Mr Brown. Labour at fault all the way.
Oh and remeber the same clowns who pushed LloydsTSB and HBOS together now agree for some break up as set out by the interfering EU.
65

,

03/11/2009 12:22:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
66

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 12:23:55
63 Noble Negro
So the GDP figures are "lies". The accounts of HSBC and other banks fraudulent and their auditors have been conned. The banks are all, according to you, "insolvent" but the markets have't spotted this.

So any info (from whatever source) that doesn't suit your argument is a lie, a con or fraudulent. Markets all over the world can't spot this but you can!

Meanwhile you assert that a liability of £1trillion is bailed out but a source of revenue that constitues 1% of this.

67

Ugly George,

03/11/2009 12:30:06
67 Noble Negro

Please check up on the umber of stock excahanges in the world on which HSBC is traded. Why has nobody else spotted (what you claim to be obvious) that HSBC are insolvent.

It appears that all sorts of traders, fund managers etc. all over the world are "thickos" and you are blessed with some unique insight.

In terms of your accusations, can you give me details of the taxpayers money HSBC received to trade on derivatives.
68

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 03/11/2009 12:34:31
#38 Ewen Randall

It is interesting to note that if Scotland had been a separate country from the rest of the UK that the Scottish Bank would have been the problem of the Scottish Government while its subsidiary operating in the UK would have been London's problem to solve.

69

WeeGirlie,

03/11/2009 12:39:37
From

-11
"they WOULD NOT BE IN THIS MESS"

to

-65
"MAY NOT HAVE BEEN the case"

if Scotland had been Independent.


Slippery, very slippery. Also, Salmond was demanding looser regulations on the Scottish banks weeks before the collapse.

Fact.
70

,

03/11/2009 12:50:00
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
71

,

03/11/2009 12:50:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

Nellie,

Liverpool 03/11/2009 13:06:19
10 Vaward

Slightly off topic but actually all the oil off the Scottish coast isn't Scottish. The Scottish border runs NE into the North Sea and runs through roughly half of the so-called Scottish oil fields. The rest are in English waters.
73

Salem,

03/11/2009 13:13:44
I know what I’ll do when I exit politics.

“When I leave office I want to be involved in charitable work,” he told GQ magazine.

“I’m actually shy by nature… someone who feels that your actions should speak for themselves…”

His actions really do speak for themselves. As prime minister he presided over the systemic bankruptcy of the UK by allowing the unregulated banking sector to run wild.

So now this reckless leper seeks redemption for ruining the lives of thousands by doing a Mother Theresa.

Brown will surely go down as the worst prime minister in history.

The collapse of the economy and the banking sector is one thing but his most despicable “actions that speak for themselves” are his covert machinations and scheming to undermine the cause of independence.

Brown is a traitor to his heritage who is beyond redemption.

Whether an independent Scotland would have avoided the TSB and RBS debacles is speculative and somewhat academic.

One thing is certain the current situation could not be worse under an independent Scottish government.

The question is where to from here?

With the establishment and the media against them, and in particular this rag with the misnomer name, it will be an uphill battle for the SNP to persuade voters to see there is a better way forward that does not include remaining in a union that has damaged Scotland almost beyond repair.
74

WeeGirlie,

03/11/2009 13:29:23
Oh dear.

Mrs Brown has joined us.
75

Nellie,

Liverpool 03/11/2009 13:36:25
22 Laird o' Glenrothes,

Slightly off topic but you said, "One of my mates is a postie.... he gets to finish delivering his round then go home, regardless of how many hours are left of his shift. He can get the nikes on, run around a few streets then be back home for breakfast! Good eh!"

Sorry but I fail to see what is wrong with that. It's long been thought that giving a workforce productivity targets is the way to improve ... productivity. The postie has a target to deliver the mail. If he does it in 8 hours or in 5, he's met the target. So, what is wrong with completing the job ahead of time? That's his BONUS for high productivity. If they have the same amount of work to do but have to stay in the full 8 hours to do it, they won't be more productive employees - they'll just work "normally" and stretch the same amount of work across 8 hours instead of 6. I mean, why both doing anything else? What bonuses will they get for working harder in the 8 hours they must attend? Nothing, cos they ain't senior management, just the poor grunts on the floor working so the guys at the top will get a bonuses!
76

,

03/11/2009 13:41:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
77

,

03/11/2009 13:45:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
78

Nellie,

Liverpool 03/11/2009 13:50:43
33 thinking

You said, "Surely if they have 30% more staff than competitors then they need to shed those 30% to survive. It will be hard on those who lose their jobs but it retains the jobs of 70%."

With respect, your thinking here is too simplistic. What is not taken into consideration is the value that extra 30% might be putting into the business in terms of customer satisfaction and loyalty ... and thence, new customer recruitment. It is my experience in a bank that when customer "facing" staff (and I include telephone call centre) are reduced to "save money", quality of service to customers is reduced and customer loyalty is adversely affected, maybe not immediately but over time. The place where I worked had v high customer satisfaction levels. After five years of "efficiency savings" we still had high customer satisfaction levels but they were around 10% or so down, and customer complaints were something like 10 times more, and our customer base was little different. Yes, our product offerings were better and we were recruiting more customers, but we had sprung a leak of customers who had experienced our service over time and seen felt it drop off.

The problem with blame it all on the number of employees is the same one that got the banks into trouble - they want short-term gains and beggar the long-term. Indeed, through that 5 years of slow degradation of customer satisfaction a high turnover of senior management had reaped bonuses for the short-term cost savings they'd made .... It was a false economy in the long run but these people can't see, don't want to see, past their annual bonuses.
79

WeeGirlie,

03/11/2009 13:51:02
-79

You were doing well when you stuck to topic. Not that I read any of it of course.

80

,

03/11/2009 13:52:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

,

03/11/2009 14:13:19
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
82

Salem,

03/11/2009 14:24:10
# 82

You are absolutely correct.

This is an unprecedented opportunity for the SNP or any other group who cares to take up the cause of independence.

The UK is in ruins.

Labour will soon be history for the foreseeable future.

Salmond should be raising the alarm, the UK is on fire and going down in flames.

Labour, the Lib Dems and the Tories don’t have the answers. The Tories shall be the next government with a huge majority but they have no support in Scotland so will continue to regard Scotland as a province of north Britain.

If I may, you have to understand these forums are populated by a large number of the intellectually challenged, morons with a computer and an Internet connection who chip in with one-liners devoid of substance.

Better not to waste your time responding to these creeps who live under rocks.
83

RussellMorgan,

Edinburgh 03/11/2009 14:46:59
Noble Negro de Escocia - what an irritating poster you are.

You may be right, you may be wrong - but you're very unpleasant in how you present your case.

Off topic, but I come back to this paper every now and then, because I feel I ought to read the Scotsman.

Every time I return, I leave; disappointed by the drivel posted anonymously on the comments pages.

Russell
84

Salem,

03/11/2009 15:05:43
#85

I was going to say the same thing!
85

thinking,

Scotland 03/11/2009 15:36:56
#80
I do agree with you Nellie. The problem is that the bank has overstretched itself trying to be more than an ordinary bank and does not now have the cash flow to keep as many staff. Some of the higher level staff should go first so that the frontline people are retained. It won't happen, of course.
86

,

03/11/2009 16:17:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
87

,

03/11/2009 16:20:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

Frank Spencer and Betty,

03/11/2009 16:30:41
The act is the UK is bankrupt, as is the US. The banks have been dishing out money that didn't exist for years to people who cannot really afford it as it was all borrowed on over-inflated house prices and by reckless gambling on the financial markets. The government is attempting to keep the banks afloat by printing even more money it does not have and the country does not have the manufacturing base to help get the country out of this shambles.

This bubble has burst and no amount of printing money by the government is going to inflate it again. It is a false economy that is being kept afloat artificially until the next election and then whatever government gets in is going to have to turn off the printing presses and that is when the real pain for most people in this country is going to begin.

This government has saved nothing because they do not have any money to save the economy with and they have no manufacturing base to pay its debt back with.
Anyone wanting to see an excellent documentary on the banks go to www.zeitgeistmovie.com and watch "Addendum". The other dvd is excellent too.
89

,

03/11/2009 16:42:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
90

Frank Spencer and Betty,

03/11/2009 16:53:46
#91 Noble Negro

Already have your link in my favourites. You should watch the zeitgeist addendum movie I pointed to in #90 above. It explains it all very nicely re the banks and how the pyramid has begun to topple.

www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
91

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

03/11/2009 17:25:36
91 & 92

Ok, you've proved that you're both delusionally paranoid idiots.

Now go play somewhere else - preferably in traffic.
92

tommy M,

Scotland 03/11/2009 18:01:03
Thanks for the links. From the Herald - "in Friday's Guardian the Lloyds chairman, Sir Victor Blank, boasted about how he had entered negotiations with the HBOS boss Andy Hornby two years ago. Blank says he later lobbied Gordon Brown on a plane returning from Palestine and secured the prime minister's agreement for a suspension of the competition regulations which would have made a merger between those two giants unlawful.

What did Blank tell Brown about HBOS that made the prime minister so willing to waive the competition laws in this way? The presumption must be that Brown was persuaded that HBOS was heading for insolvency some time before its shares crashed. In which case, why weren't shares in HBOS suspended under stock exchange rules on merger talks? Why did the Financial Services Authority announce on the very morning of HBOS's demise that it was "well-capitalised and solvent"? And why was the ban on short selling, and the extra Bank of England's extended liquidity scheme, delayed until after the deal had been struck?"

93

,

03/11/2009 18:03:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
94

Salem,

03/11/2009 18:54:35
# 88 # 89 # 91 # 95

That's much better!
95

,

03/11/2009 19:33:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
96

,

03/11/2009 19:55:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
97

Oldhabits,

Bristol 03/11/2009 20:25:55
Lord Myners is reported to have said that RBS was the worst managed bank in British history. Why is it that many Scots are still reluctant to criticise Fred Goodwin? Despite what he has done, he still seems to have retained cult status in and around Edinburgh.

I think it ought to be recognised that the profits he was supposed to have earned in the years leading up to the im/explosion were not profits at all, and should never have been declared as such.

Auditors where were/are you?
98

Salem,

03/11/2009 20:47:06
# 97

I’m watching it - now at $1085 an ounce.

Between 1999 and 2002 Gordon the leper sold 60% of the UK’s gold reserves for $275 an ounce.

This is not over; people in the UK have no idea what is coming at them.

# 99

I wish people would stop bringing up the half Scott Friedrich Goodwin’s name it makes my blood boil.

This arrogant little man should be in prison.
99

Oldhabits,

Bristol 03/11/2009 22:52:07
#100

Boil away........... The more we bring it up the better chance we have of getting your wish granted.

If you had lost as much money as I have as a result of this man's arrogance and incompetence, you would not want him to simply slip into obscurity.
100

WeeGirlie,

03/11/2009 23:00:44
Another bail out for the RBS - a not insignificant £25bn - Union Dividend, anyone?
101

Nellie,

Liverpool 03/11/2009 23:30:42
79 Noble Negro de Escocia

1. You are mixing your plurals up with your singulars.
2. Actually, I'm a nationalist but I hate it when idiots spoil the arguments by spouting rubbish and the Scottish oil fallacy is one example.
3. Plus, idiots who fail to address the arguments and resort to snide sniping, as yourself, don't help the cause either. So, either argue your case - in this instance refute what I have said about the Scotland's off shore boundary with facts - or shut up.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.