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'No sinister SNP agenda behind £434k party and referendum launch on same day'

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Published Date: 06 November 2009
By TOM PETERKIN
THE culture minister Mike Russell yesterday said there was no "sinister agenda" behind the SNP government's plans for Scotland's biggest ever St Andrew's Day party on the day it launches its referendum white paper.
Mr Russell defended the £434,000 extravaganza against opposition claims that the celebration of Scottish identity would be an exercise in independence propaganda and was a waste of public money during the recession.

Surrounded by primary school ch
ildren with St Andrew's crosses painted on their faces, Mr Russell announced details of the three-day family festival that will include a Scottish film showcase, a massed pipes and drums parade, and a firework display over Edinburgh Castle on St Andrew's Day itself, 30 November.

Other events across Scotland include a programme of traditional music in Dumfries, a Gaelic festival in Inverness, musical events in Glasgow and a Son et Lumiere in St Andrews.

Launching the event in Edinburgh's St Andrew Square, Mr Russell said it would mark the finale of the 2009 year of Homecoming and would cost exactly the same as previous celebrations of Scotland's patron saint.

He added that people should be "very relaxed" about the fact that the festival will take place as the SNP launches the legislation that the party hopes will lead to an independent Scotland.

Mr Russell said St Andrew's Day was the "natural" time for Scotland to consider its future.

"Rather than immediately assuming that there is some sinister agenda that is being run, you can see that in every other country in Europe and most countries in the world, this would be a natural time to reflect upon who we are and where we are going," Mr Russell said.

His opponents disagreed. The Labour leader, Iain Gray, described the event as "an insult to ordinary families who are worried about their jobs".

He said: "We are in a recession and the Scottish Government should be working flat-out on economic recovery, not on what is basically a party political stunt for the SNP."

Alex Johnstone, the Tory MSP for North-East Scotland, said:

"The SNP is more obsessed with its independence propaganda exercise than it is in repairing the damage Labour has done to our public finances."

Mr Russell insisted that the festival would reflect a nation that was at ease with all its traditions.





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 November 2009 11:34 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

polls,

Scotland 05/11/2009 22:26:53
"... and was a waste of public money during the recession."

I think this is rather an unfair comment, given the vast amount of money being spent on the London Olympics.

Scotland has just experienced a pretty successfull Homecoming event and spending less than half a million seems pretty modest.
2

The Real Rufus T Firefly,

05/11/2009 23:22:01
A mere £434,000.

It is amazing how the SNP seem to have unlimited funds when it suits their political agenda.

Bear this in mind the next time you see Salmond bleating during FMQ about cuts from Westminster.
3

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 00:10:31
2 Quite right Rufus. It puts the banking bail out into perspective, so it does.
4

druidh,

edinburgh 06/11/2009 00:15:05
Surely the £434k is being spent on buying good and services, thus actually aiding economic recovery?
5

Brianwci,

06/11/2009 00:16:11
The British Nationalists in Scotland have spent so little over the decades promoting Scottishness, especially St Andrews Day, they would think £1000 was extravagant, not to mention sinister.

The SNP are in Government....GET OVER IT!!
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 00:29:39

The SNP need to learn some savvy, spending £430k to bring history alive, is poor value for money, and one that we have not been consulted on.

7

,

06/11/2009 00:31:08
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8

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

06/11/2009 00:31:21
#2 A Real Rufus - "A mere £434,000"

9p each to celebrate our national day isn't very much, especially considering that we have been press-ganged into coughing up around £200 each (and rising), for the 2012 London Brito-Fest.

9

,

06/11/2009 00:33:18
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10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 00:33:59

Hi Ford Transit, it must be getting cold at this time of year, in that van of yours, you should be eligible for heating expenses, from the Scottish Government.

11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 00:37:24
~14.

:), Not much excitement in this paper today, I am off to look at the Health Pages, see ya L8R.

12

Handsome Scotsman,

06/11/2009 00:37:52
Come on unionists , get your kilts on for at least one night a year.

Chill out , have a drink , forget your London bosses instructions and join the party.

Being Scottish is worth celebrating.
13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 00:38:22
~~16.
Now don't get cheeky! :)

14

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 00:45:12
~17

@£430k Forget it, even with the looney super tax on alcohol, I can enjoy myself for £429.980 cheaper.
15

Aberdeenshire Creepy Scot,

06/11/2009 00:48:03
£434k for a party is cheap so it is.

Observer at #3 is right to compare it with the bank bailout.

Both things are almost identical.

Sometimes I see comparisons drawn on here and I shake my head in disbelief as to how stupid some people can be.

But not in this case.

Comparing the bank bailout with a very expensive parochial dull party is certainly a comparison worth bringing to our attention.

Avanti Mike Russell and avanti the reassuringly expensive St Andrews day jamboree.

16

,

06/11/2009 00:51:24
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17

,

06/11/2009 01:04:19
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18

Eduardinho,

06/11/2009 01:05:57
Why cant we celebrate St Andrews Day??
19

Eduardinho,

06/11/2009 01:10:20
So according to Alex Johnstone, the Tory MSP ,celebrating St Andrews day is propoganda.Sorry Alex, but were in Scotland, Im Scottish and presumably you are as well, why cant we celebrate it?
The Irish celebrate St Patricks day with parties and parades. Why cant Scots not at least have some celebrations to lift us out of the misery that Labour has caused and is causing!.
20

Eduardinho,

06/11/2009 01:13:29
'Iain Gray, described the event as "an insult to ordinary families who are worried about their jobs'
Sorry Iain, you insult us, the Scots, who should be celebrating St Andrews day or are you soblinkered with the Union Jack.for God's sake its Scotlands national day. There isnt that much to celebrate these days with all the misery that Labour has caused through the economy and the wars!
21

alba nach,

Tarbert 06/11/2009 01:38:39
The Scottish Government is contributing over £2 million this year alone towards Edinburgh's festivals.

In that context, £434,000 for the entire country to celebrate its national day seems perfectly reasonable. Or is The Scotsman campaigning for the government to reduce its funding of the festivals?
22

Jimmy Fae the West,

In the Land O' Green Ginger. (HULL) 06/11/2009 01:44:41
(Chortle!)

The Calman Commission (a wasteful exercise in British Nationalist propaganda) cost the Scots £613,400 and no one got a drink! hahahahaha. Party on.

23

Stephen Wayne Foster,

Miami, Florida 06/11/2009 02:04:38
This only adds proof that one cannot attack the SNP without attacking Scotland.
24

DaveAway,

06/11/2009 02:17:25
I demand a celebration of St. Mungo Day, too! What could be more Scottish than celebrating the Patron Saint of Glasgow and Salmon(d?) :-)

St. Andrew's day ought to be celebrated as it's Scotland's national day.

Under 500K for the celebration is a steal. Will probably make money on the taxes on extra liquor consummed alone......
25

,

06/11/2009 02:25:39
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26

,

06/11/2009 03:07:05
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27

Castaway™ ,

06/11/2009 03:10:08
And this is during the recession.

The £9.3bn plus Olympic project.
Logo unveiled on 4 June 2007 and cost £400,000
How prices have risen since 2004.
Total 2012 budget up from £3.3 billion to £9.3 billion including contingency
Olympic stadium up from £280 million to £496 million (now £547m Feb 2009)
Aquatic centre up from £75million to £303million (including £60 million bridge)
Velodrome park up from £28million to £80 million (including BMX circuit)
Security costs outside the park up from £600m to £838m
Construction inflation at 5% a year expected to add 50% to venue costs by 2012 - April 9, 2008

The forecasted costs for building the Olympic park venues are predicted to rise by up to £196m, from November 2007 to 2012.

Under existing plans, shooting there are concerns among members of the Olympic board the £20 million cost and the lack of a tangible legacy for the sport.
The £60 million, 12,000-seat basketball arena will stay at the Olympic Park. 19 Nov 2008
Organisers also want boxing to move to Wembley Arena to free up space in the ExCel Arena for badminton and volleyball - so they do not have to build a £40million temporary venue at North Greenwich.

And this is during the recession.
28

Ewan Randall,

06/11/2009 05:02:37
Though launching a white paper on the referendum on St. Andrew’s day could be construed as independence propaganda can the St. Andrew’s day celebrations themselves be construed as independence propaganda?

If the St. Andrew’s day celebrations are an annual event can you class them as anymore of a waste of money than any other year?

Can the spending on this event not be considered to be reasonable against the over spend of the clans gathering of over £600,000?

If you were to consider sinister implications of using St. Andrew’s day would it not be more sinister to hold a referendum on St. Andrew’s day than to simply launch a white paper on a referendum on that day?
29

Ewan Randall,

06/11/2009 05:12:10
(#35) – (Castaway) –Could it not be said that in a recession the construction work alone adds valuable resources into the UK economy?
30

Ewan Randall,

06/11/2009 05:39:12
(#28) – (Eduardinho) –How long has there been national celebrations of St. Andrew’s day?

Has it always been considered to be an important day to celebrate by the Scottish people as a whole?

What is it exactly that we are celebrating about on St. Andrew’s day?

Is the celebration about national identity?

If the St. Andrew’s day celebrations are one of identity and they are being promoted by the SNP, then is there not some irony in this with the SNP not wanting Scotland to maintain this identity it has?
31

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 06/11/2009 05:43:50
You can find us on the street, in the office, out with a pick and shovel, or supplying you with water and electriciy. We're the sinister SNP !

When not ferreting, lurching, fowling & fishing, we can throw a good party!
32

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 06/11/2009 05:44:34
Go for it SCOTLAND St Andrews day or not. GET RID OF england...............
33

Castaway™ ,

06/11/2009 06:03:51
Q:When is the Scottish Labour Party (Northern Branch of BLP) going to celebrate "Red Rose" day ?
A:At the same time as the "Red Nose Day"

We'll keep "The Red Rose flying high", the adopted anthem of the Scottish Labour Party.

P.S. The "Red Rose" is the emblem of the Scottish Labour Party !!!
34

,

06/11/2009 06:23:27
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35

dba,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 06:43:51
To say the timing of this is a tad unfortunate would be to understate the case considerably.
I would respectfully point out to Mr. Russell that given we were told by Audit Scotland yesterday that the Scottish Govt, is facing A THREE BILLION POUND reduction in it's funding...it appears to be somewhat questionable to then spend approx HALF A MILLION POUNDS 'celebrating' Saint Andrew!
I know not what planet Mr. Russell is 'resident' of, nor for that matter, what he has been inbibing, inhaling or injecting but I do tell him that this story coupled with yesterday's of the City of Edinburgh Council SNP administration going to spend £4,000 on a 'Burns Supper' for EIGHTY attendees give grounds for SERIOUS questions about the SNP knowledge of and sensitivety to the current financial crisis afflicting many, many people in Scotland.
COME ON MR. RUSSELL YOU really NEED TO WAKE UP AND GET REAL...celebrate St. Andrew by all means but REMEMBER, please the Saint's faith, humility and poverty!
36

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 06:58:40
Dear god but you couldn't make this up. I seriously thought this was a spoof article because I didn't think the SNP were so stupid that they'd try to pull a stunt like this.

If the SNP had any sense of decency they'd stop right now, put their jackets on and leave quietly.

It's all got a bit embarrassing.......
37

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 06/11/2009 07:06:22
St Andrews day is as important to Scotland and her people as Rabbie Burns day.
On St Andrews day, many scots for a wee while anyway, look back in time to what made scotland great and its people protect her fiercely.
Some imagine the highlands, some think of auld reekie with its castle, gardens and New town. Some think of the granite city of Aberdeen(Athens of the North)fishing boats and Oil. Some think of Glasgow and the Clyde(great trading city of an empire). Some think of the country side and some think of elsewhere.
Scots abroad, when returning to these shores, may land in England but they all will say "We're nearly home" but it isnt until you cross the border into scotland that they sigh with relief, "Noo we're Hame".

I do note from the article that Peterkin goes into great detail about the number of events and festivals in the programme Scotland wide. He also quotes Ian Gray and Alex Johnstone, yet does not mention even once where the quoted "Sinister" was said or who was reported to have said it.

I think that the reporter has a "Sinister" agenda in attempting to mislead the readers.

The SNP in a couple of years have fought and changed scotland for the better. Many have been the successes and benefits of our home grown talent.
Alex Salmond has with sadness delivered appologies to the scottish electorate for not being persuasive enough to win round a block vote from the unionist parties.
The shame for the scottish parliament is in the denial of democracy.
Give the scottish voters a vote on independance, the status quo(ruled over by a foreign power) or drip drip devolution in a united states of britain which is itself is a middle player in a united states of europe.

Alba gu brath...

38

Jings MacCrivvens,

06/11/2009 07:26:53
A mere drop in the ocean in comparison with the multi-billions the Labour Government has squandered to kill hundreds of thousands of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan.
39

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 07:29:56
#46
good point,


Any idea what the final bill for the illegal Iraqi war is???
40

Jings MacCrivvens,

06/11/2009 07:32:58
#47
No idea, but with the money Labour is squandering prosecuting a war in Afghanistan which it is clearly losing, is it any wonder why things are so dire for the constituents in Glasgow North as a result of Labour's financial neglect?
41

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 07:35:46
What is it with the SNP and their need to throw money away on pointless stunts? Did you see Mr Kerr, the freaky-deaky, crazy-daisy, loopy-poopy religious nut and SNP fourth-choice candidate chucking a two pound coin at Mr Bain last night on the telly? What a buffoon.....
42

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 07:41:14
Aye and on the point of money, why has Comrade Marshall, ex New Labour Sleaze Glasgow MP, who fiddled £750,000 of taxpayers money, not been pursued through the courts and forced to return his ill gotten gains through proceeds of crime legislation???
43

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

06/11/2009 07:44:56
49

"Mr Kerr, the freaky-deaky, crazy-daisy, loopy-poopy religious nut and SNP fourth-choice candidate"

You missed out "proven liar", Mr G.
44

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 07:49:22
Have New Labour Sleaze got their armed thugs out on the streets like they did in Glenrothes, threatening to shoot reporters???

Or are they busy stuffing postal ballot papers into envelopes??

45

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 06/11/2009 07:50:31
Ross Robertson's new book is marketed as a political thriller whereas it's a slow burner. It's a hard read as most characters are very unappealing, unpleasant, obnoxious bits of work ie they're IN meadia, politics and the arms bizz. Some are well kent faces cunningly disguised.

The average scots male will want know: "What's she like in BED?" Read to page 200 and keep turning the pages!

A Yearning For Jacob's Son is printed by Caldivum Publishing.

www.roundsquare.ie

It gets Finbar Marine's ¤¤¤¤¤ rating on the super-pelagic scale.
46

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 07:50:52
The Labour leader, Iain Gray, described the event as "an insult to ordinary families who are worried about their jobs".What a stupid comment by hapless clueless Gray.

Give it a rest Gray.
I bet Gray wouldn't be whinging and whinging if the money was being spent on a Britishness day that no one wants.
Take a look at the london olympics Gray man ,notice how much cash Scotland ,s charity,s are being robbed by london to pay for their olympic games, I cant hear you complaining about that ,hypocrite.
Gray,s hatred of the SNP is effecting him so bad that he just opens his gob and comes out with any old rubbish.
47

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

06/11/2009 07:54:33
What would be “sinister” about having some organised events to celebrate our National Day?

When is “British” Day by the way, it seems to have passed me by this year?
48

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 07:59:47
51

Group Captain,

I did indeed.

Mr Kerr's behaviour from the start of last night's broadcast confirmed everybody's suspicions.

Mr Salmond has not just imposed a religious nut from a looney-tunes cult notorious for self-harming but has imposed a liar who seems to think hooligan behaviour is acceptable and whose default setting appears to be sneering.

Good choice, Alex!
49

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 08:00:00
#54 Mc Max,

Aye when is our much anticipated "Britishness Day" promised by Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon???

I'm sure we are all waiting eagerly to doff our bowler hats, wrap up in our Butcher's Apron suits, wrapped in our Butcher's Aprons and sing endless choruses of Rule Britannia while stuffing postal ballot envelopes with Sleaze Party votes?

50

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/11/2009 08:01:01
The Auditor General is 100% correct - Scotland cannot afford such frippery.
51

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 08:03:21
This money amounts to less than half of what Eric Joyce labour MP claimed in expenses.
52

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 08:03:57
Grahamski,

Have there been any utterances of a religious nature from Mr Kerr or is this more make believe drivel??

Or maybe if it worries you, we could get Comrade Murphy to have a word with the Pope when he visits Ibrox next year, and get Mr Kerr excommunicated??
53

,

06/11/2009 08:07:23
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54

,

06/11/2009 08:08:36
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55

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:09:48
60

Mr le Pie,

Mr Kerr has admitted being a member of Opus Dei - a shadowy reactionary cult which has links with Spanish fascism and whose adherents practice among other things self-flagellation and swear an oath of loyalty to their sect above all things. Put simply they are nutters.

56

watcher,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 08:14:00
The SNP are hell bent on independance regardless if it throws Scotland into poverty.
They are a financial nightmare.
57

Ben Thehoose,

06/11/2009 08:16:01
SNP seems to be good at wasting our money. I resent my taxes being spent on a party. Parties should be paid for by the party throwers, not by the rest of us.
58

Guy Wersh,

06/11/2009 08:18:33
Maybe if you Comrade Marshal paid back just two thirds of what he owes us that would cover the bill. Let's recoup the ill gotten gains of the troughers and at least let the people all have a bit of fun.

I've always said that it's a sad day when everyone knows and celebrated St Pat's day and St Andy's gets left unnoticed.
59

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:18:36
64

Mr watcher,

"The SNP are hell bent on independance regardless if it throws Scotland into poverty."

Indeed.

Mr Mason of the SNP has said that he would want independence even at the cost of Scots being financially worse off. The SNP are single-issue grievance obsessed nutters and the sooner we realise this the better.
60

TWC,

exLabour 06/11/2009 08:20:16
£434K that's buttons when compared wi the Labour & Tory expenses fiddles over the years.
61

brownlie,

06/11/2009 08:21:00
63 Grahamski

"Mr Kerr has admitted being a member of Opus Dei - a shadowy reactionary cult...."

Mr Bain has admitted being a member of the Labour Party - a shady political cult characterised by deceit of Parliament and the British public and stigmatised by being responsible for the murder of innocents in Iraq.
62

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 08:21:51
#64

What an amazing revelation - "The SNP are hell bent on independence"

You really are on the ball!!!
63

,

06/11/2009 08:22:54
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64

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:29:17
69

Mr Brownlie,

How very droll...in the meantime, did you catch the car crash telly that was the by-election hustings last night on telly? Could your guy be any more creepy?

Oh dear......
65

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:31:02
71

Mr MurdoX,

I am something of an aficianado of didly dee music I'll have you know.....
66

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 08:38:19
There are 25 billion barrels of oil and gas remaining in the North Sea. Experts and Sir Ian Wood in Herald 6/11/09 believe the oil and gas remaining in the North sea is worth over £1500 billions. And even now the UKs oil and gas enhances our economy and balance of payments by £30 billion per annum.
Much more oil and gas remains in deeper waters of the west coast and in the Minches. 90% of oil and gas is in Scottish waters.
In 2008/9 the UK Treasury received around £16 billion in tax from oil and gas producers.
Yet thanks to Gordon Brown’s recession, Scotland is facing a £1 billion a year Union Dividend attack on her budget from Westminster, with no real financial powers to address the country's pressing economic challenges.

67

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 08:42:32
Grahamski

You will notice from TV debate that Willie Bain refused to defend the dirty tricks campaign run by Labour in Glasgow North East and that SNPs David Kerr said he would not indulge in such character assasination.
68

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:44:40
74

Mr tiger,

"Yet thanks to Gordon Brown’s recession..."

Gordon Brown's recession?

Is it possible to be any more parochial? We are faced with a global economic crisis and the nats can't see beyond our borders.

Petty and ill-informed and hopelessly out their depth. It's time for the SNP. Time to put their jackets on and quietly leave....
69

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

06/11/2009 08:45:26
73 Grahamski

I would have thought that playing the fiddle would be standard practice for Labourites.
70

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 08:46:30
GORDON BROWN has not Saved the World
He is largely responsible for the UK recession


He decided to FULLY tax pension funds in 1997. We now see the results with pensions taxed both as they are invested and then again when they are paid out! Only Gordon Brown could have thought of that and we now see the results!

He decided IN 2007 to DOUBLE the income tax rate for low earners from 10% to 20%. We now have a complicated and costly system of benefits introduced by the great control freak to try to compensate for his lack of foresight.

He FAILED to introduce any form of regulation over the 'wheelers and dealers' in the City of London, a select few who become very rich on multi-million pound salaries and bonuses. These were gained by taking investment risks with other people's savings and pension funds and helped bring down some previously solid businesses. What kind of financial 'prudence' is that from Gordon Brown?

He FORCED the unwelcome takeover of HBOS by making the financial rescue package (using our money) for Lloyds TSB and HBOS a condition of the deal. We have now lost the independent Bank of Scotland and with job losses to come thanks to Gordon Brown.

He PROMISED an end to 'boom and bust'. Some promise, or does he claim: 'Nothing to do with me, gov.'?

He has INCREASED many indirect stealth taxes such as on insurance premiums and airport travel. Are we not supposed to notice them, Mr Brown, unlike the small and temporary VAT reduction which you are trumpeting from the rooftops?
He has CREATED the biggest government debt ever, with more to come with multi-billion pound upgrades to Trident nuclear weapons in the pipeline.

71

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:47:25
75

Mr tiger,

I noticed from the TV debate how creepy the SNP candidate was and how when push comes to shove the nats can't resist throwing money away on pathetic grandstanding. The one new thing here is that Mr Kerr actually literally threw money away. Pity the stunt went horiibly wrong, eh?

Laugh? I most certainly did!
72

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:48:39
77

Mr Bully,

I had four years of attempting to learn the fiddle. My family, my neighbours and my teacher are still in therapy.....
73

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 08:50:54
78

Mr tiger,

Why not just give us the link to GreetinFacedNat.com?
74

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 08:54:01
Questions Willie Bain should answer (as he was Lord Martin of Springburn's election agent and knew all about the non constituency office on which expenses were claimed) (Questions from MediaWatch)

Do you agree that your predecessor’s MP’s expenses were excessive in that he claimed £75,000 "expenses" to run a second home with NO mortgage... while living FREE in a stately London palace?

Mr Martin – supposed to be in charge of cracking down on the Westminster gravy train - was actually milking the public by claiming the money, even though he and wife Mary lived free during the week in the Speaker's opulent grace-and-favour home in the Palace of Westminster. Unlike most MPs, who have mortgages or rents to pay on constituency homes, he owns his £400,000 detached villa in Glasgow outright.
His expenses claims for his second home, totalled £17,166 in 2007, and £75,324 over the last six years.

Q. Will you undertake not to deceive your officials, unlike your predecessor, Speaker, Michael Martin, whose salary was £138,000, deceived the public over taxpayer-funded taxi journeys taken by his wife Mary - for which she claimed more than £4,000 in expenses?
Journalists were told that she had used the taxis while shopping for food for official functions, but it emerged that the "functions" concerned were actually personal occasions.

Q. Will you refuse Air miles for trips paid for by the tax payers of Glasgow NE and elsewhere, unlike your predecessor Martin who earned more than a million Air Miles on trips to and from Glasgow, despite the fact that MPs are banned from using Air Miles for personal trips?
The trips were funded by the taxpayer - but seven members of Mr Martin's family used many of the air miles.


75

,

06/11/2009 08:56:00
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76

watcher,

Prestonpans 06/11/2009 08:56:27
Read it PIEMAN. You would risk Scotland heading for the third world just to say that we are independant.
No monetary system, no health system, no dole for the poor wee hoochter choochters up in Buckie, no defence in fact nothing.
The facts are that the SNP are a financial liability.
77

DialMforMurdoX,

06/11/2009 09:04:03
Gosh, my comment at 71 didn't last long. Nice to see somebody loves Gramsci.
78

Sedov,

06/11/2009 09:05:49
This is really taking the Michael by the SNP and I am fizzing mad at a time when we are having to tighten our belt.

If this was Labour the NATS would be flooding these lines in protest.

I have always said that the SNP and their rabid supporters are bigger hypocrites and chancers than Labour and this proves my point.

79

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 09:06:36
84 .
Strange logic.
Doesn't make any sort of sense at all.
More of a unionist ill informed rant.
80

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 09:09:42
86.

"If this was Labour the NATS would be flooding these lines in protest.

No we wouldnt, we would welcome the fact that there mibee a thing called Scottish Labour after all.
Why so bitter?
81

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 09:11:23
86 Sedov*

Should we cancel Christmas celebrations as well, what about bonfire night...all needless excesses no?

In fact why not ban all civic activity as it all costs the taxpayer money!
82

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:12:03
I wonder why it is that St Andrews Day is hardly even celebrated in Scotland, let alone the rest of the world.

Compare it to St Patricks Day and there is just no comparison - the former is way ahead.

This seems strange, there are thousands of Scottish expats around the world who you would think would celebrate the day, as the Irish ones do for St Pats.

It seems St Andrews Day is overshadowed by Burns Night, both in Scotland and around the world.
83

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 09:12:32
434k spent in Scotland on Scottish firms should be welcomed..SNP supporting Scottish business and a welcome boost at a difficult time.
84

mr broon,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 09:12:37
It appears that, without a doubt, the controversial comment emigre historian Niall Fergusson once made about his homeland is correct?

"The Belarus of the West"!
85

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 09:14:38
91 Yeah 1.

Shows how up to date you are. St Andrew's night IS celebrated, in fact i am going to the ball in St Petersburg and there is a huge one in Moscow.

Not up with the St Patrick's day parade in Moscow but then Ireland have an embassy to promote such events..Scotland doesn't!
86

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:17:02
#87

"Looking to close down another thread Grahamski you unctous runt."

If anyone is going to close down this thread its intolerant, hate-filled bigots like you 'Hen Broon'.

Don't you have anything constructive or intelligent to say?

All you do is spout disgusting bile and insults against your fellow Scots - 'English lackeys', 'inbred piece of slime'

You are a disgrace and an embarassment to the vast majority of independence supporters and the SNP.
87

,

06/11/2009 09:17:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
88

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 09:20:54
For the benefit of slow readers above..

There are 25 billion barrels of oil and gas remaining in the North Sea. Experts and Sir Ian Wood in Herald 6/11/09 believe the oil and gas remaining in the North sea is worth over £1500 billions. And even now the UKs oil and gas enhances our economy and balance of payments by £30 billion per annum.
Much more oil and gas remains in deeper waters of the west coast and in the Minches. 90% of oil and gas is in Scottish waters.
In 2008/9 the UK Treasury received around £16 billion in tax from oil and gas producers.
Yet thanks to Gordon Brown’s recession, Scotland is facing a £1 billion a year Union Dividend attack on her budget from Westminster, with no real financial powers to address the country's pressing economic challenges.
89

Jimbo2,

06/11/2009 09:20:58
Iain Gray is an insult to ordinary families who are worried about their jobs.
90

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 06/11/2009 09:22:35
Clear case of Gerrymandering.
91

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:23:51
#96

"And where is the story that the nominations for Scottish Politician of the year are: Kenny MacAskill (SNP, Nicola Sturgeon (SNP)and John Swinney (SNP)"

Salmond must be spitting with rage at that one.

Getting upstaged by others within his party when he normally takes all the glory.

His considerable ego must be badly bruised - maybe thats why he has started going on the campaign trail in Glasgow NE, in order to get himself some more publicity?

I think the award should go to MacAskill, along with one for 'humanitarian of the year' too....
92

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 09:28:33
Bonfire Night is a much more dangerous waste of time and money.

Why anyone in Scotland should celebrate a failed attempt to blow up the English Parliament is beyond me!

And before I get accused of being anti English my father is English and it was a tongue in cheek remark.
93

Tynietiger,

06/11/2009 09:30:12
As First Minister the statesmanlike Alex Salmond is not considered for Scottish Politician of the Year.
94

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:36:02
#45

"He also quotes Ian Gray and Alex Johnstone, yet does not mention even once where the quoted "Sinister" was said or who was reported to have said it."

Are you blind or just stupid?

It is perfectly clear that the 'sinister' quote comes from Mike Russell, the SNP culture minister.

He is quoted in the very first line:

"the culture minister Mike Russell yesterday said there was no "sinister agenda""

and then again later in the article:

"Rather than immediately assuming that there is some SINISTER AGENDA that is being run, you can see that in every other country in Europe".

Does that clear up your obvious confusion?
95

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 09:37:11
Sinister agenda ?
Yesterday Jim Murphy, Labour Secretary of State for Scotland announced "new" protection for the Scots Whisky industry.
New was the requirement to bottle single malts in Scotland.
Years of inaction by the government over the misleading term "pure malt" have long since been overtaken by a voluntary agreement outlawing the use of the description in the Scottish Whisky industry.
Suddenly, sinisterly, just before the Glasgow by election, Jim Murphy gets round announcing it as government policy.
We thought that Gordon Brown prefered self regulation to government intervention, so why interfere in this case when it has been working for several years. It will have no effect on whiskey producers outside Scotland who can still describe their product by any means that they think will increase sales.
96

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:37:49
#102

"As First Minister the statesmanlike Alex Salmond is not considered for Scottish Politician of the Year."

Is that right? Perhaps you could explain exactly how he managed to win the award in 2007 then?
97

noswod,

Honestas 06/11/2009 09:41:18
Cheap policital trick by the SNP to generate publicity for its failing independence bid. Even Mad Max himself agrees that Breaveheart was a work of fiction like the believe that an independent Scotland will mean more economic growth for Scotland. Free car parks, free University education for the middle class, free perscriptions, free parties, free facepaint etc etc etc all funded by free money received from WhiteHA which gives Scotland at least £5bn more than it should get either on a per head basis or as a % of its economny. Any spending plan designed to change the spend it now stuff the future culture of public expenditure in Scotland and the UK is closed down. The SNP stands for "Still no Policies" to reverse Scotlands economic and social decline. When the young Mr Cameron gets into WhiteHA Scotland will have to live on £20-£25bn a year time for a pay cut for the establishment who have got rich and prospered on unsustaintable levels of public revenue expenditure
98

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

06/11/2009 09:42:44
102 Tynietiger,

Kenny MacAskill gets my vote.

Both John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon are worthy contenders for different reasons, but on balance the Justice Secretary stands tall as a man who has been prepared to put his head above the parapet, accept all the flak directed at him as a result and emerge with his dignity and integrity intact.

We need more of his ilk in the body politic.
99

Sedov,

06/11/2009 09:43:16
#90 Nevsky - I know that you are an arch apologist for the SNP but try and put things into persepective.

We can all enjoy Xmas and bonfire night - as a matter of fact my family and i enjoyed last night with a few fireworks and a wee fire - without having to spend a fortune and Xmas will be the same for us -its what you make it and not how much you can spend.

What we need is for all politicians to set an example, let their actions follow their mouths and be sensitive to the present difficult period that we are going through and be careful of spending our money on what is seen as another publicity stunt for the politicians, in this case the SNP.

Not so difficult Eh?
100

aljok.23,

The world 06/11/2009 09:45:27
Anyone wanting to celebrate St Andrews Day are deemed sinister by The Scotsman and all who represent them . I am insulted.
101

aljok.23,

the world 06/11/2009 09:47:26
this is the same week as goverment funds were spent in portraying Jesus as a transexual for the Glasgay community.
102

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 09:49:49
79.
I noticed willie Bain eyeing the twa quid coin. I also noticed he did not offer it back, did Bain pocket it after the show?
Nice move by Kerr.
103

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:50:22
#109

"Anyone wanting to celebrate St Andrews Day are deemed sinister by The Scotsman and all who represent them . I am insulted."

Where exactly does the article say anything about those who celebrate St Andrews Day being sinister?

You clearly either didn't bother actually reading the article before commenting or you are too stupid to understand what it was about.
104

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 09:52:18
108 Sedov*

Perhaps the Irish can cancel St Patrick's day as well. St Andrew's day is not for the 'politicians' as i think the events will be enjoyed by the public and will of course the money will be spent in Scotland...big problem...i think not!
105

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 09:53:34
111

Mr McMax,

"Nice move by Kerr."

Too right. It was good to see the SNP throwing money away as a political stunt. They just can't help themselves, can they?

106

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:53:56
#101

"And before I get accused of being anti English my father is English and it was a tongue in cheek remark."

You remind me of a 70s comedian trying to justify themselves by saying 'I've got lots of black friends' before launching into a racist joke.
107

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 09:55:31
If the SNP love St Andrews Day so much and want us all to enjoy it, why don't they turn it into a national holiday and let us all have the day off work?
108

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 09:56:05
watcher,
Prestonpans 06/11/2009 08:56:27
Read it PIEMAN. You would risk Scotland heading for the third world just to say that we are independant.
No monetary system, no health system, no dole for the poor wee hoochter choochters up in Buckie, no defence in fact nothing.
The facts are that the SNP are a financial liability.


I see the labour party intelligentsia are out today.
109

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

06/11/2009 09:56:58
85 DialMforMurdoX,

I thought that your deleted comment at #71 was both amusing and also showed a good knowledge of Dumfries and some of its features.

I would be intrigued to learn why it was deleted.
110

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 09:57:07
Now we are in the EU, shouldn't we be celebrating 'St Jadwiga' day, instead of celebrating St Andrew day along with Rissia, Romania, and Greece?
111

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:01:37
Sedov,
06/11/2009 09:05:49
This is really taking the Michael by the SNP and I am fizzing mad at a time when we are having to tighten our belt.

If this was Labour the NATS would be flooding these lines in protest.

I have always said that the SNP and their rabid supporters are bigger hypocrites and chancers than Labour and this proves my point.

FFS, get a grip ya bell@nd. 10 pence per man woman and child in Scotland to celebrate our national day - it's hardly bottles of Moet all round is it?. Bank bail outs, illegal wars or 470K celebration of our national day - which is sinister?. You unionist ar$ewipe scumbags have lost the plot.
112

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 10:03:47
#120

"Why are you a racist,anti-Scot?"

In what way am I either racist or an 'anti Scot'?

Why are you a lying, intolerant bigot?
113

Sedov,

06/11/2009 10:06:01
#113 and 121 - stop being ridiculous and read my last post properly. Can you people stoop any lower?
114

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 10:07:45
114
Looks like Bain pocketed the money then.
Cant help thevselves this labour mob it,s a form of greed never seen before.
115

Mèths,

06/11/2009 10:08:56
2006

The Scottish executive spent £300,000 on St Andrew's day celebrations. Headline that day in the Scotsman was "Give St Andrew's Day celebrations a whirl". There were 12 comments.
116

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 10:10:16
#116 Yeah1

"If the SNP love St Andrews Day so much and want us all to enjoy it, why don't they turn it into a national holiday and let us all have the day off work?"

The previous lot already made it into an optional national holiday, along with amusingly pedantic flagpole regulations. Personally, I regard it with as much relevance as almost everyone else.

Now we get fireworks displays every 3 weeks in Edinburgh. Maybe they should let them off inside Holyrood during FM's QT, instead.
117

Miss H,

06/11/2009 10:10:23
Dear me. If it is wrong to have a party on St Andrews Day because of the recession then what next?

It's a good job Iain Gray is not FM otherwise I can see him re-enacting Alan Rickman's role as the Sheriff of Nottingham and cancelling Christmas!
118

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:11:57
"noswod,
Honestas 06/11/2009 09:41:18
Cheap policital trick by the SNP to generate publicity for its failing independence bid. Even Mad Max himself agrees that Breaveheart was a work of fiction like the believe that an independent Scotland will mean more economic growth for Scotland. Free car parks, free University education for the middle class, free perscriptions, free parties, free facepaint etc etc etc all funded by free money received from WhiteHA which gives Scotland at least £5bn more than it should get either on a per head basis or as a % of its economny. Any spending plan designed to change the spend it now stuff the future culture of public expenditure in Scotland and the UK is closed down. The SNP stands for "Still no Policies" to reverse Scotlands economic and social decline. When the young Mr Cameron gets into WhiteHA Scotland will have to live on £20-£25bn a year time for a pay cut for the establishment who have got rich and prospered on unsustaintable levels of public revenue expenditure "

Yes, it must absolutely mean that we will fall into absolute poverty, there is no possibility that we will become wealthier, such a scenario is LUDICROUS. We will have a GDP similar to Albania, there can be no doubt about that, yes us scots are such a bunch of complete fu3Kwit$ that we will manage to destroy our economy and will perplexingly (as a people that has contributed so much to the modern world) be the only small northern eurpoean country to have a third world economy. there can be no doubt of this.
119

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 10:13:39
#117 Dougie,

Aye I read that drivel and laughed. It beggars belief that anyone can be so stupid tp post drivel like that.

But that's New Labour Sleaze for you!
120

Mèths,

06/11/2009 10:13:55
This paper really is the pits. On the right of this article the headings are "More Scotland" and more Scottish National Party"

In the Scotsman in 2006, the headings to the right are "More St Andrew's day."

The articles below this are:-
* Saint Andrew's Day marked in style across the Capital
* Bridge Saltire flagging after just two days
* New heroes for St Andrew's Day
* St Andrew's Day holiday ruled out by £500k costs
* Bravehearts make big splash on St Andrew's Day
* A roar of Scottish fervour
* Wear Scotland's colours with pride
* St Andrew's Day party set to reel in crowds
* 'It's hardly the time for open air festivities'
* Business chiefs urged to market St Andrew's Day
* St Andrew square meal
* Give St Andrew's Day celebrations a whirl
* St Andrew's Day offer is a dram fine idea
* Mail chiefs give Scotland's first-class saint stamp of approval
* Celebrating school work
121

Mèths,

06/11/2009 10:14:54
... whereas today's articles on the right are:-

* 'No sinister SNP agenda behind £434k party and referendum launch on same day'
* Another SNP election pledge has yet to bear fruit, complain critics
* Fresh calls to Salmond over 'double-jobbing'
* Something fishy over SNP election hopeful who was born in two places
* Glasgow: We bailed out the SNP and they axed our rail link in return
* SNP accused of dirty tricks
* E-mail hint of SNP's plans for property tax
* SNP lead, Labour win
* Nationalists 'give up' on 2010 referendum
* Eyes down, as SNP battles to be Kelly's eye, No 1
* Alex Salmond on the rack over criticisms by business
* Business chiefs go on warpath against SNP
* SNP 'trying to usurp parliament' over public services
* SNP leader branded 'an irrelevance' at general election
* Salmond a desperate attention-seeker, says Osborne on poll visit


122

Miss H,

06/11/2009 10:15:19
79 What I noticed from the debate is that Willie Bain does not appear to support a single Labour policy.

It's a bizarre tactic. A Labour candidate who does not agree with the Labour Party.

123

Mèths,

06/11/2009 10:15:36
Yep. That's the even-handed press for you.
124

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:16:10
Ok sedov - care to nominate which political party in the US the 4th of July is a political stunt for? Australia day?, St Pats Day?
125

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 10:16:34
125 Meths*

The SNP are in power now though so small mindedness of the unionists to the fore and let's face it being a unionist also means being a hypocrite...especially the faux outrage at anything Scottish.
126

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 10:20:26
#131 Mèths, 06/11/2009 10:14:54

Try reading the article - it is about the SNP using St Andrew's day as a launch-platform for party-political legislation. No doubt the headlines would be of the un-sullied 2006 variety, if the current exec wasn't been so cynical.
127

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:22:43
Jimmie - I am left breathless reading the stuff in this paper sometimes, and then the comments from the apologists are beyond belief.

Meths - you couldn't make it up, but they clearly do! - crass, undiluted propoganda with a distinctly desperate whiff
128

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 10:22:49
I see the good Comrades have now printed £200 Billion to try and hide their utter mismanagement of the economy.

PPP/PFI has still not showed up on the books.

And the Sleaze Party here are complaining about less money than Comrade Marshall, socialist hero, fiddled on his expenses.

Breathtaking hypocrisy from New Labour Sleaze yet again!!
129

Troubled voter,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 10:24:34
Good on you Michael R and co.... Shed light on the narrow dark corners of feeble minds who would apparently deny us the opportunity to Celebrate Scotland's cultural diversity. Remember Ockhams Razor...

And isn't it great that such a story should get so much comment... more strength to your elbow Scotsman
;-)

ps Who is Iain Gray again?
130

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/11/2009 10:24:46
I see all the Usual Suspects are banging the big drum for Labour and the their Orange Friends.

This decent into the gutter is typical of the Scottish Labour party that does not want to discuss the fact that this has been a Labour seat for over 70 years and has levels of poverty reminiscent of a third world country.

28% of working age adults on Incapacity Benefit.

38% of working age adults unemployed

58% of working age adults lacking any education or skills.

And a male average life expectancy of 50years.

Yet for them the most important issue is what hospital the other leading candidate was born in.

Typical Labour nonsense.
131

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 10:25:08
Sad to watch the symbols, and celebrations of Scotland being transformed into party political merchandise.
132

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 10:29:38
I see the "Defenders of the Union" were performing in Romania on Wednesday night.

It's not hard to see why the rotten, rancid, corrupt, discredited union is finished.

Comrade Murphy must have been proud of them?
133

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/11/2009 10:30:42
140 Kamp

And no nat admits to voting for any other party in the past ... .
134

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 10:31:11
141 Tin Man*

How can St Andrew's day be party political. All Scots should celebrate it (or not as the case may be).

Guess anything Scottish makes you slightly uncomfortable...all comes down to your identity crisis i guess.
135

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:32:44
Kampung @140

Life expectancy lower than India or Ghana - surely shume mhistake???!!!!. It looks like the SNP have less work than we expected in reducing Scotland into a third world country than we expected - all thanks to our comrades and countrymen in the labour party.
136

Unbiased White Female,

Who Cares? 06/11/2009 10:33:10
#63 Grahamski - perhaps you can remind me which Party the MP for Bolton West, Former Cabinet Minister and self-confessed Opus Dei member, Ruth Kelly represents?
137

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 10:34:32
141 yes it is sad to see celebrations of Scotland being turned into some sinister political machination, courtesey of the Scotsman.

In what other country would spending this amount of money on a similar celebration make the news?

Answers please on a postcard.
138

Unbiased White Female,

06/11/2009 10:34:46
Oh and forgot to say forced to stand down at the next election over claiming £31,000+ to refurbish her home.
139

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 10:35:17
#144

Why, do you think the exec are launching their minority party-political legislation campaign on St Andrew day by coincidence?

So course, some Scots are soooo Scottish that they live in St Petersburg. Give us a break, Nevski. Is it 'ex-pat syndrone', or what? Don't play the 'Scottish' card with teh people who live here.
140

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 10:36:30
#147 Observer

'Sinister' it is not, 'political machination' it certainly is.
141

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:37:04
Nevsky - it's all a poloitical ploy, it dosen't just happen in Scotland though - the democrats did it last July the 4th, the repulicans the year before them....

The SNP are promoting Scottishness as part of a narrow agenda, much in the same way that the French promote Frenshness on bastile day. It's disgraceful.
142

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 10:37:22
149 Because it's a good day to launch it?

You appear to think that the SNP should not do anything which is to their advantage on the basis that it's no' fair.
143

Dougie Dougla,

06/11/2009 10:38:51
#143

thats right walter, especially the poster on here called 'TWC - ex Labour VOter'
144

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 10:39:22
150 What politician doesn't machinate?

Why do you think the SNP should have special rules?
145

Sedov,

06/11/2009 10:40:36
#132 Miss H - LOL!

You think that anyone who is a Labour Party member but does not go along with present policy is bizarre - thats cos you haven't a clue about the history and substance of many of the rank and file members who make up the Labour Party.

I have been an activists in the Labour for many years and during that time I have not agreed with most of its policies and have argued for real socialist policies instead - - bizarre? - No! - because the LP, despite its poor performance is STILL the party of working people and there is STILL no alternative and its a waste of time supporting anyone else including the SNP -I tried and regretted it very much as they are further to the right than Labour.

Like the left sectarians whose only reason to exists is to rant against Labour but offer no real alternative- you will never understand why people not only support Labour but still vote for them.
146

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/11/2009 10:42:17
155 They most certainly are NOT further to the right than Labour.

You have wasted your time.
147

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 10:44:25
#154 Observer

The only person that used the word 'sinister' was Mike Russel - hence the headline. They could have just dropped the politics and had a party (as in 'fun', rather than as in 'agenda'). Sadly, not. Political cynicism towards cultural institutions is now being turned into a fine art. All very boak-worthy.
148

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 10:45:14
149 Tin Man*

Where i work is an irrelevance....but obviously the statement about your inferiority complex and identity crises hit the spot!

The difference is that every time i see a saltire i am comfortable with it...for unionists of your ilk it's like a cricifix to a vampire.

The union has doen a fine job on you!
149

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 10:46:36
Sedov,

Of course you are right. I can never understand why anyone votes for New Labour Sleaze.

After 12 + years of utter incompetence, outright lying, cheating and self serving on a grand scale, I can never understand why anyone is daft enough to support them.

All their principles thrown away for personal gain.

Pathetic.

Maybe they're hoping for a few crumbs from the trough???
150

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 10:46:54
157 Tin Man*

What happened to 'Britishness Day'...that was boak inducing...oh and shelved as noone could care less...apart from the Scottish unionists....but they generally are also boak inducing.
151

JeannieMac,

06/11/2009 10:47:13
Scotland has ALWAYS celebrated St. Andrews Day. The amount being spent this year is the same as last.

Attacking the celebration of St. Andrews Day is the same as attacking Scotland's very soul--so why should we not be surprised?

But it's a recession so Scots should crawl into their hovels after tugging our forelocks, one supposes. Thanks, but no thanks.
152

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 10:49:45
Tin Man*

This should calm your nerves about your Scottishness:


http://www.stgeorgesday.com/home
153

Walter Ego,

Durness 06/11/2009 10:51:29
153

Dougie, do you believe all of the ppish that appears on these forums? Very naive, boy ... .
154

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 10:53:40
#159

"outright lying, cheating and self serving on a grand scale, I can never understand why anyone is daft enough to support them."

Yes, who in their right minds would vote for outright, proven liars?
155

Alan B,

06/11/2009 10:53:49
#Sedov

re labour - "the party of working people "

A joke surely.

Grossly incompetent and corrupt to boot does not make them a party of the working people.

Labour utlra unionism means they put the union before the working people of scotland. Labour lust for power over the past decade means they have sold out scotland to gain political popularlity in scotland.

I take it you were happy with browns monetary support for an economic policy that - unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south - yes labour really working for the working people in scotland. What a joke.
156

Alan B,

06/11/2009 10:54:28
sorry should be:

Labour lust for power over the past decade means they have sold out scotland to gain political popularlity in the south.
157

Alan B,

06/11/2009 10:55:20
#Yeah1

"Yes, who in their right minds would vote for outright, proven liars?"

Labour voters. Or are you sayng they are not in their "right minds".
158

,

06/11/2009 10:56:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
159

Satire above all,

06/11/2009 10:57:14
>>> 101 Tynietiger

Check your history

The attmept to blow up the House of Parliament was not an attack on the parliament itself, IT WAS ACTUALLY AN ATTEMPT TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE LONDON OF SCOTS. Not only were the Houses of Parliament targeted, but a variety of abodes throughout London were Scots were residing. (Facts that are little known by the generaql public)
160

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 10:58:53
Yeah 164,

Remind me, who told parliament that Saddam had WMD and could deploy them in 45 minutes???

Then proceeded to destroy a country and it's people???

Go on who was it????

Proven liars?????
161

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 10:59:58
Alan B*

What is unfortunate is the quote from the thread on Harman...someone stating they will be voting Labour 'because the roots are deep here'.

This is the biggest con in Scottish political history and deeply unfortunate that these people still believe that Labour are the party of the working people.

We all know they aren't of course (especially with regard to certain areas of Scotland)...these people have been systematically betrayed and cynically used by Labour for generations....they will pervade the lie on the older generation but the younger ones thanksfully seem to be wise to the Scottish lie!
162

,

06/11/2009 11:01:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
163

Mèths,

06/11/2009 11:01:42
Tin Man

1 I read the article
2 The headline of the article mentioned the price
3 Previous executive introduced the bash
4 SNP has said from the outset that St Andrew's day would be the launch.

What's yer point?
164

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 11:03:26
At least the SNP had the dignity and principle to refuse to applaud Comrade Blair when he left parliament.

All the New Labour Sleaze Comrades stood and applauded a mass murderer and proven liar!!!

Pathetic
165

Mèths,

06/11/2009 11:04:36
Tin Man

"Is it 'ex-pat syndrone', or what? Don't play the 'Scottish' card with teh (sic) people who live here."

How about soldiers serving abroad. Are they allowed to play the Scottish card?
166

Mèths,

06/11/2009 11:04:52
It's also syndrome!
167

,

06/11/2009 11:06:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
168

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 11:08:04
177, union

And you have???????????????

Ha!
169

,

06/11/2009 11:10:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
170

Walter Ego,

Aberdeen 06/11/2009 11:11:44
165 Alan B

Alan, I agree with you. The Scottish socialist republic is now inevitable. We must ditch the right wing English and their monarchy. Vote SNP.
171

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:11:54
The Scotsman forgot to add the imperial march from Star Wars when reading this pap.

Honestly it's so insidious, is there no depths that the SNP will go to celebrate being Scottish.

Imagine Willie Bain openly being dishonest about GARL and ripping off Glasgow, tsk tsk.
172

Blue Tooner,

06/11/2009 11:14:34
Fit's a Son et Lumiere ?
173

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 11:17:00
177 union*

The Labour vote in Scotland (and certainly the generations that believe Labour is still the party of Keir Hardy) is dying off...fact!

Labour are losing their traditional vote because that traditional vote is dying off; all that will be left eventually will be small socially deprived Alamos where Labour will perpetuate their lies!

Take a look at Dundee and Aberdeen....Labour are finished in these cities..who would have thought that 20 years ago?

174

Gerry,

Galway 06/11/2009 11:17:26
178 comments on such a trifling amount of money! In 2008 the Irish Government spent almost €1m on promoting Ireland abroad on St Patrick's Day and the St Patrick's Day parade in Dublin in 2009 cost almost €2m (almost all from government funds). The benefit for the Dublin region alone of this investment in 2009 was €58m and about the same amount again for the rest of the Republic. My point, basically, is that it was money well spent - in spite of the naysayers.
175

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 11:18:54
164.
"Yes, who in their right minds would vote for outright, proven liars"?

Brain dead Labour sheep as per.
176

Alan B,

06/11/2009 11:21:58
#Walter

It is mad Sedov that want to tie scotland to "right wing English" as you call them so that he can get his dream of a socialist uk state.

For me i just think it is a joke to portray labour as the party of the working man when they alway completely destroy the economy and cause everyone so much pain.

A party that will sell all their values for a bit of power. And a party where scots mps will happily support policies to run down scotland as they chase the southern vote.
177

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 11:22:37
#180

"The Scottish socialist republic is now inevitable. We must ditch the right wing English and their monarchy. Vote SNP."

I assume from your comment that you don't realise the SNP would keep the monarchy in an independent Scotland?

We all know how much Salmond enjoys boosting his ego by associating with the Queen and staying with her at Balmoral.
178

,

06/11/2009 11:22:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
179

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:23:50
Honestly is Ian Gray morphing into a latter day uptight calvinist, thou thy shall be no christmas, dancing or merriment to celebrate.
180

Mc Max ,

06/11/2009 11:26:09
188.
A 12 year glitch that has saddled the tax payer with debt for the next 50 odd years.
Well done Labour another total disaster as a gvmnt.
181

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 11:27:17
188 union*

Labour has been a 'glitch' in Scotland for 50 years! They have lied and cheated the people principally (not all) for personal gain.

The Labour gravy train of controlling councils, brown nosing their way through the ranks to become MPs and finally betraying their principles for cash is coming to an end!
182

Alan B,

06/11/2009 11:28:29
#187 Yeah1

Are you really that daft.

The poster is a labour supporter who posts the same line all the time and is trying to be sarcastic. But does not have the wit of the 'union is best' poster.

The snp policy is to separate out the monarchy issue from independence and let it be decided by future scottish governments. A sensible position.



183

Alan B,

06/11/2009 11:33:47
#188 union united

You are misunderstanding the position. Labour has by ignoring the economic fundamentals over the past decade has wrecked the uk economy. That it all fall now like a pack of cards is not because of recent policies but their economic mismangement over the whole period.

But it is just a rerun of the economic incompetence of the 70s where they managed to have inflation of 25%, the imf called in to give us emergency loans and take control of our economy and a labour party who are the only party in the history of the nhs ever to cut its spending in real terms. (due to its economic mismangement).

Do you by the way agree with Browns/labours economic policy support for his monetary policy saying - higher unemployment in the north is worth paying to control inflation in the south? (A continuation of the tory monetary policy during their 17yrs)

184

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 11:34:05
#192

"The snp policy is to separate out the monarchy issue from independence and let it be decided by future scottish governments. A sensible position."

Why separate it? Why not just ditch the monarchy at the same time as ditching the Union?
185

Alan B,

06/11/2009 11:39:44
#194 Yeah1

Because it makes sense.

You do not have to be a republican to support independence.

Why confuse the issues?

The point of independence is so Scotland can decide on issues. Not for all decisions to be pre judged.

That is why the snp support a referendum on say the euro.

Also an independent scoland would have to consider other constitutional issues and it makes sense to have them as a cross party discussion and a cohernt arrangement.

Personally I am a republican and would ditch the monarchy.



186

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:40:22
190 I like to use the analogy that Gordon is on a plane reading a book on how to fly.

Soon after take off he decides that he can fly the plane, he then takes over from the previous captain.

It's a long flight 12 hrs or so, it's also a lovely day with good weather ahead.

For the first 10 hours the flight is smooth the autopilot is in control, but Gordon keeps on telling everybody on the plane he is in control.

Soon bad weather is upon the aircraft, the autopilot alerts Gordon he must take manual control his first officer Darling is asking questions about how do they guide the plane down.

Gordon assures him and the plane he is in control, now the plane is moving wildy due to the storm Gordon is confused as his book described how to change the flight inputs, however the plane is not responding as Gordon has read.

The purser phones Gordon as asks what the hell he is doing, Gordon explains he is very intelligent and has read a book on how to fly a plane. The purser then asks how much experience he actuall has, Gordon replies he is totally focused and getting on with the job of flying the plane.

Soon the aircraft warns Gordon to pull up as the plane is descending to quickly.

Sifting through the wreckage the flight recorder is found over and over Gordon is heard saying I am totally focused and getting on with the job. Soon after the plane crashes.
187

Alan B,

06/11/2009 11:41:51
#196 Tormod

lol
188

watcher,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 11:43:37
What exactly did this Andrew guy do anyway apart from spreading christianity?
I would have thought a thistle day more appropriate and leave auld Andy to the Russians.
189

Handsome Scotsman,

06/11/2009 11:44:58

Did Billy Bain pick up that £2 coin off camera?
190

,

06/11/2009 11:45:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
191

TWC,

exLabour 06/11/2009 11:47:15
108 Sedov

I have trouble following your attacks on the nats, I think you are from a similar Background to me and I am sick of the SLAB's failure to demand Fiscal Control especially over oil and Gas so that we can invest in Jobs here in Scotland.
I almost went to Bournemouth in my youth to make the Union fight my Full time career and now I ask myself where are they in Scotland and on the Fiscal Question.

I don't care about Independence but I don't fear it if it is the only way we get control of the finances.
192

Mèths,

06/11/2009 11:48:33
Hi Kimba!
193

Scotland to prosper...,

06/11/2009 11:48:49
It's pathetic that we squabble over spending 434K on a national day of celebration. I would bet that America spend far more on Tartan week and thats celebrating what is to them, a foreign land!

The ease at which some opposition parties are allowed to blurt out ridiculous arguements against the SNP is ever-surprising. Do they really believe that such abuse directed towards the nationalist movement has any effect.



194

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:49:29
197 Cheers Alan
195

,

06/11/2009 11:50:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
196

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 11:51:07
#

"The point of independence is so Scotland can decide on issues. Not for all decisions to be pre judged. That is why the snp support a referendum on say the euro."

So why it is 'pre judged' that Scotland will join the EU if it becomes then?

If the SNP don't want to 'confuse issues' surely they should also separate that from the independence referendum and have a different referendum on joining the EU once Scotland becomes independent?

"Personally I am a republican and would ditch the monarchy."

As am I. If the SNP pledged to remove the monarchy as soon as independent was achieved I would be more inclined to vote in favour of independence.
197

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/11/2009 11:52:17
199

Mr Scotsman,


"Did Billy Bain pick up that £2 coin off camera?"

STV have got footage of Mr Kerr retrieving his coin after the debate.

His stunt hasn't gone down well at SNP HQ - who have been desperately defending themselves over charges of throwing money away on political stunts and what does Homer Kerr do? Only goes and demonstrates how the SNP throw money away - in front of the cameras - D'oh!
198

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 11:53:16

Lie bore - Cost of ID Cards
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/files/ips/live/assets/documents/IPS_Cost_report_2009_v5.pdf
199

,

06/11/2009 11:53:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
200

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:54:57
203 His noble lord of Glenfiddich and Totally Pished has cost £100,000 FOI.

Apparently that's a worth while cost, but having a celebration on St'Andrews's Day is evil and bad.
201

vitesse_skye,

Antwerp Belgium 06/11/2009 11:54:58
I think the biggest waste of public money by a long way was...................
1. The rescuing of the banks.
2. The sale of UK gold reserves for a quarter of their present value.
3. Paying not only expenses but wages to those reprehensibles in Westminster.
4.Trident and its future replacement.
Both as Chancellor and Prime Minister Gordon Brown has really proven the words of John Lennon prophetic. It was really Dear Prudence.
202

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 11:55:40
Good story in the Telegraph,

Corrupt politician threatens another corrupt politician!!!

"Gordon Brown warned the Afghan government today that he will not continue to risk the lives of British troops to defend a corrupt regime.

In a clear policy shift, the Prime Minister cautioned President Karzai that unless he quashes endemic corruption he will have “forfeited” his right to international support."
203

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:55:42
207 Is this the same "source" that you used in the past?
204

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 11:56:30
This thread reads like a conversation between a lunatic and his analyst. I remember when you could still have a reasonable debate with unionists. Since the SNP won the election the conversation has descended to the rantings you see above.

If the best they can come up with now is Grahamski, Rufus, Amwhoever and the receding Timbercake it shows something "sinister" is happening. Are all the literate, sane, clear thinking, Labour supporters being shipped off somewhere? Or are they, like most sensible Scots, realising the futility of the unionist argument?
The Scotsman seems to be actually aiding this movement with it's cringe inducing, terrible headlines. Although they employ utter idiots in Maddox, they also let me ask a Tavish Scott a very loaded question yesterday(he ducked it), and they keep the comments open which expose the utter stupidity of the unionists who remain, screaming and gnashing their teeth, uttering more and more desperate drivel, as they see their whole reason for existence dissolving into a muddy pool of lies and spin that used to be a very Scottish institution.
Remember John Smith people? The man who was the true instigator of the devolved government and a true believer in Scotland must be shaking his head in disgust at the idiots and liars that have replaced his once proud Labour party. The sane and sensible have been shipped off, to the go6d ship SNP. God bless her, and all who sail in her!
205

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 11:58:53
Looks like the union is coming off the rails!!

Superb posting at #209.

Swivel eyed and foaming at the mouth???
206

Handsome Scotsman,

06/11/2009 11:59:17
#207 Grahamski

Scotland has been generously chucking its wealth in the direction of the Union for 300 years.
207

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 11:59:40
212 The amazing thing about that is that Gordon Brown was pushing hard for a rerun of the election one day. The opponent drops out and very soon after Brown is back on the telly eulogising Karzai.

It's strange in the least.

Now we have the tried and trusted it is in the national security interest line being pushed by wee dougie etc.

The whole things stinks.
208

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:04:31
206 Your statement doesn't make sense, there's a lot more chance of ridding ourselves of the monarchy and the EU if we were independent. The SNP haven't ruled out either, in a future independent Scotland those options would quite easily be decided in a referendum. If you vote to stay in the union what chance do you have of a decision then?
209

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:09:07
#214

"I remember when you could still have a reasonable debate with unionists. Since the SNP won the election the conversation has descended to the rantings you see above."

Your argument would have more credence if you admitted that it is not just 'unionist' posters on here 'ranting' and 'uttering desperate drivel'.

Post #87 is a perfect example of an SNP poster doing exactly the same - ranting and attacking other posters with insults like 'unctous runt, 'English lackeys' and 'inbred piece of slime'.

Or are you one of those posters who thinks all crazy 'unionist' posters are real, but all the ranting SNP posters are 'fake' or 'plants'?
210

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 12:11:55
Watching the Glasgow by election candidates on TV last night we began to wonder why W illy Bain was standing as a Labour candidate.
He disagrees with Labour party policy in so many areas and has little time for Gordon Brown, he would not even support him over the WMD evidence used to start the war in Iraq.
211

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:14:07
#218

"there's a lot more chance of ridding ourselves of the monarchy and the EU if we were independent. The SNP haven't ruled out either, in a future independent Scotland those options would quite easily be decided in a referendum."

The SNP would not have a referendum on joining or leaving the EU - they have made it quite clear that if Scotland becomes independent they will either join the EU or remain within it (whichever is the case).

Salmond is quoted as saying: "Scotland is already a member of the EU and that would continue."

I for one would be quite happy to join or remain in the EU, and to get the Euro.
212

Mèths,

06/11/2009 12:14:20
Yeah1

Faults on both sides. Are you impressed with union united?
213

Mèths,

06/11/2009 12:14:45
Bye kimba! (ex 209)
214

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:15:39
219 I accept that the SNP supporters have a few ranters, the sad thing is that 99% of the unionist posters have no logical argument and descend into insults and drivel when asked politely to explain their logic.
215

pwd,

Hawick 06/11/2009 12:16:35
55 ... Bully Wee

"When is “British” Day by the way, it seems to have passed me by this year?"

A mature people who know and are confident in who they are have no great need for national days and the like, and the overwhelming majority of the people of these islands (the British) fit into that category despite the travails of the last few years. Besides, there is so much to celebrate and to rejoice in by being British there would be a problem selecting which great national event to commemorate nationhood.

With one or two exceptions national days are the stuff of banana republics and the like, where there is a need to develop a sense of unity - or to divert attention from reality.

As I've said before on this site, any greatness achieved by Scotland was achieved as a member of and by its glorious contribution to the greatness of the United Kingdom.

No, we don't need any national days but if a few people want to have a party on St Andrew's day so be it, but please don't demean Scottishness by politicising it. Our saltire has been enough tarnished already since it was hijacked by the SNP.
216

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 12:16:44

Just a reminder who is one of the major Lord's troughers

http://www.snptacticalvoting.com/2009/05/lord-foulkes-receives-expenses-glare_30.html

You will not he is not the only one.


217

Beachcomber,

Edinburgh 06/11/2009 12:17:16
error- you will note he is not the only one..
218

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:18:21
#222

"Faults on both sides. Are you impressed with union united?"

No of course not. 'Mark mccann' doesn't appear to agree with your view that the SNP posters have faults too though.

He quite specifically blames only 'unionist' posters for the ranting and drivel on here, when there are clearly a number of SNP 'supporters' who fit that category too.
219

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:23:12
221 Very true but as the SNP has Scotland's interests at heart, if the EU were shown to be damaging to Scotland, it would be a lot easier to vote on leaving it if we were independent. Either way, staying in the U.K. will leave us at the mercy of our larger neighbour's wishes.If you want your opinions heard, independence is the only logical option.
220

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 12:23:18
225 pwd,

So why did Comrade Broon suggest having a Britishness Day where all schoolchildren would swear allegiance to the Butcher's Apron??

Have a read at the Telegraph or Daily Mail comments to see what Middle England think of Scotland.

Oh and I've never considered myself British nor will I ever!
221

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:23:30
The raison d'etre of separatists is independEnce from England.

Once achieved (ha!) the plan would be to cede it to Brussels.

There is no 'independence'.

Only frequent postings from a minority of the Scots public who agree with the policies of a government in power with a minority percentage of the electorate's support.

222

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:23:32
#224

"I accept that the SNP supporters have a few ranters, the sad thing is that 99% of the unionist posters have no logical argument and descend into insults and drivel when asked politely to explain their logic."

Obviously 99% of unionist posters on here do not descend into 'insults and drivel'.

There are some unionists who post sensible points and argue coherently, as there are some SNP posters who do likewise.

Equally there are posters from both sides who descend into rants, insults and bilge.

I would say the ratio of sensible posters v ranters is about equal on both sides.
223

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:25:33
228 Did you miss my post at 224?
224

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:26:14
-230

Your "Butcher's Apron" reference is an insult to the young Scots who serve our country. Just like Pete Wishart at the House of Commons.

Any SNP here wish to criticise their comments/actions?

225

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:27:44
232 If you can point out one unionist argument that holds water I'll retract everything I've said. Give me one example.
226

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 12:29:08
231 Wee Girlie*

You are for Scotland ceeding practically all decision making to Westminster but against ceeding limited decison making to Brussels if Scotland was independent...does that make sense to you?

227

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:29:24
Holding the biggest ever party on the same day as launching the referendum to separate Scotland from England.

Coincidence? Well to the intellectually challenged, yes. To the majority - no, we're not fooled.

This is no different from the SNP stealing the Saltire.
228

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:29:36
Oh bl@@dy hell, here's Wee Girlie, another poster who ignores you when you ask her to explain any of her arguments. Sigh!
229

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 12:30:24
234 Girlie*

None blames the soldiers....it's the government that issues the orders to kill!
230

Mèths,

06/11/2009 12:30:41
WeeGirlie

"The raison d'etre of separatists is independEnce from England."

Eh? Are you another poster who thinks the UK = England?
231

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 12:31:20
234 Girlie,

Why do you consider my "Butcher's Apron" reference as an insult to young Scots???

Would that be the defenders of the union who were waving them about as they battled with police in Romania on Wednesday night???

That is a really stupid statement you've just made.

Have you no hoosework to be getting on with??
232

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 12:31:41
237 Girlie*

Not England but Westminster and the union...contains other nationalities as well in case you have forgotton!
233

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:32:52
-235

What is the SNP's plans for our armed forces? What size of army, navy and air force would we have?

A party without a coherent strategy for defence deserves a boot up the pant, not a tick at the ballot box.

234

bluepict,

06/11/2009 12:33:38
St.Andrews day is a brilliant idea and all true Scots will celebrate the event,its obiviously a thorn in the side to the westminster suck ups though!And to the latter, I award the Reverse churchill followed by a resoundingly loude RASSSSSSSSBERRRRRRRY!
235

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 12:34:20
234,237 I didn't know they could stack sh0ite that high well done!

There is so much troll manure on this thread.
236

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:34:57
237 Of course it's not a coincidence. It's called good politics! When else would you launch a referendum? And as for stealing the saltire, did you forget Gray and Murphy draped in the saltire on that beach? I suppose, considering how uncomfortable they looked you probably wiped that from your mind, like most things you'd rather not deal with. Cleaned yer windaes yet? ;)
237

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 12:35:10
243 Girlie,

Are you trying to claim the mantle for asking stupid, inane questions from Ewan???
238

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:35:50
#235

"If you can point out one unionist argument that holds water I'll retract everything I've said. Give me one example."

I'm not talking about the unionist argument - I'm talking about your statement that "99% of the unionist posters descend into insults and drivel".

You may not feel that any of the unionist posters offer any rational argument, but surely you realise that 99% of them don't descend into 'insults and drivel'?

Surely you would agree that the proportion of ranters spouting drivel is about equal on both sides?

As for those posters spouting intolerant bigoted bile however - that is very much weighed on the side of SNP 'supporters'.
239

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 12:36:21
243 You mean we should use the tried and tested UK defence model of getting our heads firmly up the backside of the current American president.
240

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:37:26
243 Your obsession with defence shows either a severe paranoia or someone who knows all her other arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.
241

Alan B,

06/11/2009 12:38:28
#Yeah1

"So why it is 'pre judged' that Scotland will join the EU if it becomes then?"

I think the point is we are in the EU. As such if were to leave the EU that should also be judged after independence.

As such it is consistent with their stance to allow change with an independent scotland to be decided them post independence.

I think the idea is to seperate out what they may want as a party post independence and the question of independence itself. Partly as the snp themselves will be a broad church of people wanting independence but may want the power of independence to take the country in different ways. (bound by the idea that is for scotland to decide via the will of the people).
242

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:39:58
248 Still waiting! Can't find one? Didn't think so! And as for bigoted bile, Labour supported by the Orange Lodge?
243

Jimmy Fae the West,

In the Land O' Green Ginger. (HULL) 06/11/2009 12:40:26
Hmm! London town is going to spend £1,000,000 on this new years 10 minute fireworks and around £3,000,000 on the event, but the whole of Scotland should not be spending less than five minutes worth of London's sparklers on a national day of celebration? I think the SNP has a lot of secret supporters on this paper as no Unionist would seriously attack Scot's whilst allowing london to spend so many billions on Hogmaney, trooping the colours, Lord Mayor's shows, openings of parliaments, St George's day parades, Mardi Gras, marathon and half marathon, Nottinghill carnivals and an endless list of knees-up-mother-browns!
244

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:40:35
#245

"There is so much troll manure on this thread."

You really are obsessed with trolls Tormod. Everyday you are on here going on and on about them - its not healthy.

Get a hobby - preferably one that doesn't involve you fantasising about mythical creatures and their 'manure'.
245

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:41:10
-236

Only the politically naive (you) would make a statement like that.

246

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:42:58
-245

I'm glad someone's prepared to take the blame.
247

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:43:47
#252

"Still waiting! Can't find one? Didn't think so!"

Did you actually read my post at #248?

I'm still waiting for proof of your claim that "99% of unionist posters descend into insults and drivel" which is quite clearly ridiculous.

As I already have said, you may not think any unionists on here offer a rational argument, but surely you don't really think 99% of them 'descend into insults and drivel' do you?

If you are going to try and present yourself as a sensible, rational poster with arguments worth reading you need to try and be slightly less one-eyed and biased.
248

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:44:27
-250

Rather amusing reply, were it not for that fact the subject such a serious one. Even if you don't think so.

No answer either I see. ;)
249

Alan B,

06/11/2009 12:44:29
#Yeah1

I would say there are very few unionist who post any coherent. Most have given up and just resort to silly posts and insults. Even the ones that used to be sensible have mainly decented into stupidity.

The only ones that I have noticed that I would respect are Ugly George, The Fed (who used to post), and Fairfax (who is not even a unionist) and a guy from South Africa (Geoff i think).

Beyond that i cannot think of any serious unionists.
250

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 12:46:09
254 Hoonster if you don't know what a troll is.....
251

New Town Resident,

06/11/2009 12:48:51
Best thing about St. Andrews day for me is the free entry to all the lovely Historic Scotland properties. We had a really good family day out last year, weather cold but clear. More of the same hopefullly.
252

Nigel,

Dunfermline 06/11/2009 12:49:02
The only ones who appear to be "obsessed" by independence are the Libs, Labs and Cons.

They just can't help themselves !!!
253

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 12:49:09
#260

"Hoonster if you don't know what a troll is....."

I know exactly what a troll is. What I am worried about is your obsession with them.

You are constantly talking about trolls and their manure, its not good for you.

Please get a hobby.
254

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:49:49
-234

"Why do you consider my "Butcher's Apron" reference as an insult to young Scots???"

The reference "Butcher's Apron" is often used by SNP supporters to describe British military conflicts of the past.

Such a comment ignores the fact that the British army has a deep strand of Dark Blue running through it - a several centuries'-old contribution from Scotsmen. Today, Scotswomen serve in the British Army.

Therefore, when you use that remark, you insult Scots soldiers.


255

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:50:17
Yeah1 If you read back through the thread, apart from yourself, i can't see anyone who has a logical argument. They consistently sound slightly insane. They put forward a statement they consider fact but when it's pointed out to them that it obviously isn't they start shouting and foaming at the mouth. You actually sound like your sitting on the fence a bit, you say that if the SNP were for ridding Scotland of the monarchy then you would be more inclined to vote for independence. I can't stand the monarchy, the words of the "national" anthem "rebellious Scots to crush" shows where they stand after the religious and political demise of the Stewart dynasty. They are essentially anti Scottish and the sooner they go the better but we have a lot more chance of that if we are our own nation, not this sorry excuse for one.
256

Mèths,

06/11/2009 12:51:30
Unionist posters I enjoy reading:-

Grahamski (not just 'cos he bought me a pint), Yeah 1 (seriously), Geoff (SA), Ugly, Rufus in all his guises, Fairfax, Publius (sometimes). There are more, but that's enough to be going on with.

.... sm753 was usually interesting.
257

pwd,

Hawick 06/11/2009 12:51:47
# 230 ... Pie

Yes, you've missed out on quite a lot. I can see that from your various posts.
258

Mèths,

06/11/2009 12:53:32
Unionist posters who are a waste of time.

Union united (who apparently has had all posts removed), and all her sign-in names.

259

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 12:54:17
-249

What is the SNP alternative?
260

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 12:55:00
250 Wee Girlie, we had this discussion a couple of nights ago, you ignored my questions and I replied to yours. I discussed where the threat would come from and how we would combat it. Don't you remember? Or were you too busy peering through your grubby window to see if I really was outside?
261

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 12:57:02
263 I am not obsessed just calling a spade as shovel hoonster.
262

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 12:58:05
269 To have a properly armed and equipped force.
263

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 12:59:18
Wee Girlie,

Have a read at posts #61 & 62.

The Butcher's Apron is a symbol of an Imperial past that is best forgotten.

Anyway, must go,

Later
264

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:05:06
-250

What about Defence?

What about it?
The SNP don't think it's important?

Naw, no' really.....
265

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 13:06:59
#265

"Yeah1 If you read back through the thread, apart from yourself, i can't see anyone who has a logical argument. They consistently sound slightly insane."

Yes there don't appear to be too many sane ones on this particular thread, but I think 99% of all unionist posters on this website descending into 'insults and drivel' is a bit of a high percentage.

"You actually sound like your sitting on the fence a bit"

Thats probably because I am. I don't have an affiliation to any particular party, or to either the unionist or independence cause.

The problem I have with some SNP supporters on here is that some of them are intolerant, hate-filled bigots who spout bile against their fellow Scots - 'quislings', 'English lackeys' and 'anti Scots' being typical insults.

I also have a problem with some SNP posters who seem to have a fanatical, almost religious devotion to independence and the SNP.

These people cannot accept that their party, its leader and its supporters ever has any faults or makes any mistakes.

They also constantly attack anyone, like me, who dares to criticise any SNP policy, or anything their leader or supporters do.
266

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 13:11:01
#275

"I also have a problem with some SNP posters who seem to have a fanatical, almost religious devotion to independence and the SNP."

An example of this is Tormod - he has admitted to being fanatically, religiously devoted to the independence cause.

He also constantly attacks me as a troll, and 'hoonster' (whatever they may be) whenever I dare to criticise the SNP or its supporters.

This is not a healthy state to be in - it is unwise to be fanatically devoted to anything.

It is also unwise to believe that your party and its supporters are perfect in every way, never make mistakes and cannot be criticised in any way.
267

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:11:34
-273

Your disappearing act reminds me of Observer's. I call the SU laxative.

By 'imperial past', what period are you pointing at?

I should add, Britain's imperial past involves Scots soldiers to a great degree. You should already know that.

268

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:13:05
-276

How sad it must be for them then that their 'views' are very much the minority (16-17% at the 2007 SP elections!!) of Scots.

269

Gdgy,

06/11/2009 13:14:53
The SNP's launch of the referendum and a big party at the same time just points out that they are no better than any other bunch of politicos...it is bread and circuses again...do anything to get an advantage....

However, doubting the honour of the SNP gets you labelled traitor by the SNPites....
270

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:15:08
-270
-272

More detail please.

Normally there are plenty of stats from SNP activists -yet on Scotland's future defence requirement there are none.

Curious that...
271

Mèths,

06/11/2009 13:15:38
What's a SP election?
272

Mèths,

06/11/2009 13:17:18
WeeGirlie

Why are you asking us to do your homework? You'll find the SNP position on defence here:-

http://www.snp.org/node/6599
273

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 13:17:35
276 I'll repeat what I said yesterday, as you have a Tavish Scott habit of misquoting:-

A common mistake our religious fanatical belief is in Scotland as an independent country standing on it's own two feet.

I and my fellow nationalists have complete 100% confidence that we would have a more happier, healthier and altogether more prosperous country as an independent nation.
274

Mèths,

06/11/2009 13:18:35
Lunch calls.
275

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:20:07
-279

Good point.

Of course, everyone sees through Russell's rhetoric. They'd get more credit if they only admitted it.

But the nature of this failing Executive is that they are always on the defensive, always looking to spin their way out of trouble.

Always on the defensive, which is ironic for a party with no coherent policy on defence.
276

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:23:03
-283

But with no defence policy - or am I wrong? Pray tell.
It can't be that difficult, surely?

What would we have for a navy, army and air force.

Or is the silence admission that we would seek to hide behind England's coats?

Surely not????
277

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:24:10
-281

S-c-o-t-t-i-s-h P-a-r-l-i-a-m-e-n-t-a-r-y
278

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:26:55
-276

Good points. It isn't healthy. Unfortunately this is the way they are. Most of them.
279

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 13:28:18
275 I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here, although there is intolerence on both sides, I think you mistake a genuine love for Scotland and a desire to see the best for it, as a fanatical, religious devotion. The history of our country is littered with stories of our being sold down the river at the expense of our lords and masters, whether they are our own or our English neighbours. As a people we have been lied to and deceived for centuries, this continues today with the fallacy that we are subsidised by the U.K.. This lie is propagated by Scots as well as the English, the anger you see on these threads is directed at those who continue the lie.
I love Scotland and everything it stands for; diversity, igenuity, industry, honesty and compassion. I feel utter contempt for those who ignore the obvious when it is presented to them and continue to hide behind arguments that are obviously wrong. I feel total contempt for those of us who think we are incapable of running our own affairs successfully. I am always willing to persuade and cajole the doubters but when they are presented with the true statistics and the real facts that show the truth, and they still hide behind their fear, then I get a little upset.
The SNP aren't perfect, they, like most parties have their faults and bad apples but at least they have no hidden agenda, they only want to see Scotland do well and determine it's own future. The declaration of Arbroath asked for recognition as a soveriegn country, the SNP are the only party that continue this tradition. As a Scot who loves his country I don't see how you can argue against that.
280

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 13:31:21
286 Okay then prey tell what is the force compostion of the UK going to be in 1 - 5 - 10 years time.

Because call me a cynic but this usually changes from year to year. i.e. Type 45, reduced in number and unarmed.

Current estimates on expenditure are close to Norway, so go and have a gander at there webpage for numbers.
281

Adamant,

06/11/2009 13:31:45
266 Meths

Having just recently discovered this site and usually being a silent observer I was interested in your list but do not recall seeing any from the Rufus and SM753 you mentioned.

Can some-one compile a list of those who support your Nationalist cause who are interesting so I'll know who to look out for and who to skip over.
282

TomPullings,

Clydebank 06/11/2009 13:35:41
Yeah wee gurl, we definitely need a strong defense as thare are so many enemies lining up to take us on, you moron. If, (sorry), when the union is split up, Scotland will have it's share of the armed forces and a powerful force they will be as the best of the UK's forces are from north of the border, (IMHO). All those unionistas accusing the SNP of hypocrisy and lack of thought in investing money in Scotland's national day should look to their own parties first and see what shoite they have been up to with OUR TAX money, quite a considerable pile of pooh, I can assure you.

Good luck to the SNP in the up coming by-election. It looks like they will have their work cut out for them in the face of every dirty trick NewLiebore and their chums in the mass media can throw at them.
283

Baggy Troosers,

06/11/2009 13:35:42
#248

Having just read your post can i just pick upon the part where you say.
"As for those posters spouting intolerant bigoted bile however-that is very much weighted on the side of the SNP support".

Having read a lot of pus filled rants from both sides ,i would disagree with you entirely.

After all it is not the SNP support who are coming up with such beauts as,

Adolph Salmond
Nasty Extremests
Slimy Salmond
Tartan Tories
Seperatists
Gnats
A protest group
Right Wing Independents
Nazis
SNPites
Nationalist THREAT
CREEPING Nationalists
Silo of Alex Salmonds Making, and many more to numerous to remember.

Some Ntionalists are no Angels but have a Looonnnggg way to go to catch up with you Labour Deciples.
284

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 13:37:26
286 http://www.mil.no/languages/english/start/facts/article.jhtml?articleID=138699
285

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 13:38:29
#289

"The SNP aren't perfect, they, like most parties have their faults and bad apples"

Excellent that you can accept this - perhaps you could spread this message to fanatics like Tormod and 'Scottish and Proud'.

Those type of posters are unable to accept that the SNP are anything but perfect. They are also unable to accept that the SNP have any faults, or that there are 'bad apples' amongst the SNP support.

Tormod admits, in #283 that he has a 'religious fanatical belief in Scotland as an independent country'.

As I have said, being fanatical about anything is unwise.

Posters like Tormod are very similar to Muslim extremists - fanatically devoted, unable to accept their party (religion) has any faults, unable to accept any criticism of either their party (religion) or its leader (Salmond or Mohammed) and prepared to attack anyone who dares to offer such criticism (either with words or actions as the case may be).
286

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:39:19
-282

Thanks for that.

What does it mean when it says

".....the priority of the Scottish Defence Services (SDS), in partnership with Scotland’s neighbours and allies, will be to safeguard our land, sea and air space.....

What actual numbers, bases, etc are the SNP talking about but like yourself, they aren't willing to quantify?

I mean, we will have tanks, and planes, and guns, and ships?

287

Eduardinho,

06/11/2009 13:39:44
#286 WeeGirlie
Ive news for you, Scotland would have a Navy, Army (despite Labours attempts to get rid of) and Air Force
There was , a couple of years ago a Scotish High Command excercise in a what if situation. It was worked out that an Indpendent Scotland would have a reasonably sized armed forces.
In addition to that, countries with similar population sizes , such as Norway have sizable armed forces.
So no rhyme or reason why Scotland is any different
The debate is not about whether Scotland would have an army,navy air force, but of one to do with what would its main aims and objectives be. The majority of conclutions is that it would be orientated towards UN and NATO peace keeping activities
288

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:41:00
-290

See 296 above.
289

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:43:19
-292

More abuse, thanks, your parents WILL be proud.

If only the stats on Defence were as forthcoming!!
290

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:44:55
-293

Since when Separatist such an insult?
Surely if anything, it's a fact?
Please explain.
291

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 13:45:29
#293

"After all it is not the SNP support who are coming up with such beauts as.."

And it isn't unionists who spout such bile as:

Anti Scots
Quislings
Traitors
English lackeys
Fifth columnists

And more, about their fellow Scots.

"Some Ntionalists are no Angels but have a Looonnnggg way to go to catch up with you Labour Deciples."

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Just because I dare to criticise the SNP or its supporters you immediately think I'm a 'Labour disciple'.
292

billalba,

fife 06/11/2009 13:46:54
weegirlie.. I am an ex serviceman and I can assure you that I am not in the least perturbed or insulted by calling a flag the butchers apron. my flag is the st andrews cross and the blue bit in the butchers apron you are so fond of is the wrong colour.
You say that the SNP will concede independence to the eu conveniently forgetting that at the moment under the british we have no say whatsoever in the EU and at least under a Scottish Government we will have a say and if we feel the need we can leave.
We will have the armed forces appropriate to Scotland's requirements ... have you got it yet? (I suspect not).
293

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 13:47:36
295 Magic I am fanatical extremist Scotland lover, ooh goose bumps.

My Quote again:-

"A common mistake our religious fanatical belief is in Scotland as an independent country standing on it's own two feet.

I and my fellow nationalists have complete 100% confidence that we would have a more happier, healthier and altogether more prosperous country as an independent nation."

So Hoonster an absolute belief in Scotland and Scots including yourself is being a fanatical, religious, zealot?

Praise be in the ministry of having faith in Scotland and Scots.

You do like to make yourself look foolish.
294

The Real Rufus T Firefly,

06/11/2009 13:48:15
Happy 40th Birthday Baggy Troosers.
295

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 13:50:00
295 As I've already said I agree that extremists are dangerous and usually full of hate but that's no reason to lump us all into one basket. The SNP are a left of centre political party, they welcome everyone who supports their policy of independence. To use a few extremists as representative of the whole party is wrong and short sighted. Most of us and that is shown I believe, by the measured, patient arguments shown by the majority of our supporters, are liberal, fair minded and egalitarion. The argument that wanting the best for Scotland is extremist, is the dangerous one.
296

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:54:16
-297

Well, I'm glad someone at least had a stab at explaining.

So, it's to be the same size as Iceland, Ireland or Norway.

Would that include conscription, including that for women, and membership of Nato?

Or are the SNP's quick references only when it suits?
297

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 13:55:09
-301

Game
set
match
298

Dùn Èideann Bully Wee,

06/11/2009 13:58:10
288 WeeGirlie,

Just as a matter of interest, how many different monikers do you have to use before anyone believes that you have any degree of credibility?

Lard George is not much of a teacher is he?
299

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 14:00:45
306 Again what is the UK defence strategy? How is the armed forces being equipped and for what missions?
300

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 14:01:15
Wee Girlie. Still harping on about defence, still ignoring the obvious. Just ask anyone serving in the Scottish battalion who they will vote for in the next election. After the decimation of our proud regiments in a desperate move to smother any nationalistic feelings, while our soldiers are dying in illegal and morally indefensible wars to support US imperialism, there are very few Labour supporters left in the army.
I'm looking forward to you buying me that pint.
301

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:03:05
#305

"As I've already said I agree that extremists are dangerous and usually full of hate but that's no reason to lump us all into one basket. The SNP are a left of centre political party, they welcome everyone who supports their policy of independence. To use a few extremists as representative of the whole party is wrong and short sighted."

Sorry you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick.

I am not suggesting all SNP supporters are extremists.

I have consistently said that the SNP are a progressive, liberal, 'welcome all' party.

I have also said that the vast majority of SNP supporters are, as you say, liberal and fair-minded.

Unfortunately the party does have an underbelly of fanatics and intolerant bigots, but the views of these people in no way represent the policies of the party, or the vast majority of its supporters.
302

The Tin Man,

06/11/2009 14:04:41
#175 Mèths, 06/11/2009 11:04:36

"How about soldiers serving abroad. Are they allowed to play the Scottish card?"

Sure.

And people who live in Spain can play the Spanish card.

Viva El Swimming Pool!

Comments are allowed on El Pais. Have fun.
303

TWC,

exLabour 06/11/2009 14:06:21
285 WeeGirlie
You really are a wee Lassie, are you Harriet Harpoon?

I'm no a Nat but this guy is bustin ma buns.

Do yopu really think Soldiers care aboot a flag???

they care about other soldiers.

I don't want independence but I'm glad the Nats are there if only because SLAB aren't

I hope one day Labour will return with positive policiesespecially fiscal.

We have that guy Wood telling us all we can savce the UK debt from the oil reserves left over the next 20 years -- So where is Scotland's share???

C'mon Unions get a percentage madde acvailableto recreate Scotland's Manufacturing.
304

Incandescent,

06/11/2009 14:06:22
Conscription wouldn't be such a bad idea. It was a formative experience for many youths after WWII and, given the current state of affairs, would be the first real order and discipline many youths experience.
305

Mèths,

06/11/2009 14:06:59
312

Yawn for the umpeenth time......

1 I have property in Scotland
2 I have a vote in Scotland
3 I pay UK taxes
4 Take a hike.
306

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:07:13
#303

"our religious fanatical belief is in Scotland as an independent country"

Your quote above admits that you have a 'religious fanatical belief in Scotland as an indepedent country'.

As I have already said, having a fanatical belief in anything, whatever the cause, is unwise and unhealthy.

You admit that you have an 'absolute belief' in Scotland and presumably in the SNP?

Again this is not healthy - Scotland as a country is not perfect and would still not be perfect even if it became independent. Likewise, the SNP are by no means perfect and neither are its supporters.
307

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 14:07:31
-302

Aside from the fact you pledged an oath of allegiance to that flag... you see it being OK for people to belittle your efforts and that of your buddies as little more than a murderer?

Are you serious? Are you saying you ARE a murderer?

On the EU, how would a population of 5m have a say in deciding it's own mattters in the EU when the Dutch, far greater in size can't?

Sorry, but that's too simplistic.
308

mark mccann,

06/11/2009 14:08:08
311 Then join us and continue to dilute the extremists! "Better to be inside the tent peeing out" as someone said..
Good talking to you Yeah1. Got to go, tiling my bathroom.
309

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 14:09:24
Wee Girlie,

You still on here???

You should join the SNP - www.snp.org

You could aim for the job of Defence Secretary when we separate.

Seems to be a hobby of yours???
310

Baggy Troosers,

06/11/2009 14:12:24
#301

"You immediately think im a Labour Deciple."

Ok i'll re-phrase A Unionist Deciple ,Is that better.
311

brownlie,

06/11/2009 14:12:25
311 Yeah1

"Underbelly to me suggests "soft and vulnerable" so what do you mean by "underbelly" in the political sense and do you consider that "fanatics and intolerant bigots" in Scotland only attach themselves to the SNP?
312

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 14:12:42
-310

I'm not asking you who they'd vote for, as you have no idea.

No, what I'm asking you is whether they'll have a job come separation. A much easier question to answer, surely.

Perhaps not.

Re the pint - the comparison given for defence is Norway. How much is a pint of beer there? Are they part of the EU?

You couln't afford it - beyond the initial answer, there is a political chasm, as you indicate.
313

John S,

06/11/2009 14:15:16
These are from the MSP who wants to be the First Minister.

Space restriction limits to "one recession per month".

09 Feb 2009 - Gordon Brown can 'control' the banks and lead Scotland out of recession.
7 March 2009 - there is a difference between this recession
23 April 2009 - getting Scotland through the recession.
May - wanted
19 June 2009 - as a response to the recession.
July - wanted
Aug - wanted
28 Sept 2009 - But not now, in the midst of a recession.
21 October 2009 - taxpayers struggling during the recession.
and
05 Nov 2009 - We are in a recession.
314

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 14:15:45
-317
-318

The jokey "c'mon join us" tact serves your presence here FAR better than the rude and obnoxious comments normally spewed out.

But can you keep it up?
315

Gruntfuttock,

06/11/2009 14:16:07
Mr Russell said St Andrew's Day was the "natural" time for Scotland to consider its future.

Pity then the SNP are so obsessed with celebrating Scotland's past. The same old tired, clichéd rubbish done to the power of x.

What about a celebration that offers us some vision?


By the way. Anyone who proudly calls themselves a nationalist weather Scottish, British, English etc. must justify why they subscribe to a bankrupt political concept (not worth the epithet, 'philosophy') that, next to religion, has has inflicted untold misery upon the world. It's interesting that most nationalist movements are lead by savage-like demagogues who whip up populist hysteria with no rational basis.

As that truly great Scotsman David Hume once noted 'Where men are the most sure and arrogant, they are commonly the most mistaken.'
316

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 14:16:17
-319

DISCIPLE, would be better.
317

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:16:37
#319

"Ok i'll re-phrase A Unionist Deciple ,Is that better."

No. As I said in #274: "I don't have an affiliation to any particular party, or to either the unionist or independence cause".

You need to realise that not everyone who criticises the SNP is automatically a 'unionist'.

To use a football analogy - not everyone who criticises Rangers is automatically a Celtic fan are they?
318

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 14:17:44
-317

Try getting a joab. O

Oops, with unemployment hurtling towards 200,000 under Swinney, perhaps not.
319

Jimmie the Pie,

06/11/2009 14:17:48
#321,

So the price of a pint is relative to a defence budget???

You should really leave this kind of topic to the adults.
320

Incandescent,

06/11/2009 14:18:19
Wow! Quite impressive topic drift on this one.
321

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 14:19:44
316 If you want me to hold your hand and explain it to you in some other form of communication I will, my 2's compliment binary arithmetic is very rusty I could try that.

Yes I will say it again I have a fanatical view of an independent democratic Scotland, this means that I have 100% complete belief that Scotland would be a better country as an independent nation.

Does this mean I would hate anybody else in the British isles NO

Does this mean I think I am better and superior than anybody else NO

No again it is YOU who is making the assumption that equates my total belief in Scotland = total belief in SNP.

I have pride in myself and Scotland, yes I am 100% a fantical Scot and human being.
322

Baggy Troosers,

06/11/2009 14:21:04
Look wee girlie baby ,May i call you baby ,you act like one.

Was every other country in the world who wanted Independence,were they deemed seperatists!.

Or should i say (before you pounce),is
every person who ever craved independence a seperatist, or merely someone who wants to speak for themselves.

Were the Americans who fought for Independence Seperatists.
323

Conan the Librarian™,

06/11/2009 14:22:31
320
Good Afternoon brownlie, surely the intolerant bigots of Scotland have publicly attached themselves to the Labour Party?
324

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:24:08
#320

""Underbelly to me suggests "soft and vulnerable" so what do you mean by "underbelly" in the political sense"

'Underbelly' can also mean a 'corrupt or sordid part' of something i.e. 'probing the underbelly of the city' - this is what I meant by it.

I could also have described the SNP as a stone under which these bigots crawl.

and do you consider that "fanatics and intolerant bigots" in Scotland only attach themselves to the SNP?

"do you consider that "fanatics and intolerant bigots" in Scotland only attach themselves to the SNP"

No as I have consistently said, intolerant bigots and fanatics in Scotland attach themselves to all parties - BNP supporters for example.

The reason I talk about those within the SNP is that particular SNP supporters on here (Tormod amongst others) appear to believe that both their party and its supporters are perfect in every way, which is quite clearly not the case.

One poster, 'European Scot' even had the temerity to suggest that every 'intolerant bigoted' SNP supporter on here is actually a 'plant' by the 'Brit Nat State'!
325

Baggy Troosers,

06/11/2009 14:25:39
#325
any more of your lip and you'll go over my knee.
326

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 14:27:09
334 So what exactly are you calling me hoonster?
327

Baggy Troosers,

06/11/2009 14:28:03
#303

40! How dare you.
328

Azrael,

06/11/2009 14:28:20
#292 Baggy: I'm going to come straight out with it: underneath the façade, the SNP are all those things and more. That's why some of us hate the movement so much!

#330 Hen Broon: back from the dead yet again, I see, Duncan! Like giant hogweed, you are extremely poisonous and virtually impossible to irradicate. Sorry that you have nothing more to fill your life than a culty adherence to Nationalism.
329

union for ever,

England 06/11/2009 14:29:11
Meths. nice try!
330

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:29:18
#331

"Yes I will say it again I have a fanatical view of an independent democratic Scotland"

And I will say it again - having a fanatical belief in anything is unhealthy.

A fanatic is defined as having 'excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion' to something.

I think most sane people would realise that being intensely, uncritically devoted to anything is not wise.

"No again it is YOU who is making the assumption that equates my total belief in Scotland = total belief in SNP."

So you admit then that both the SNP and its supporters have faults and make mistakes? You admit that some SNP supporters are intolerant bigots?
331

brownlie,

06/11/2009 14:32:32
334 Yeah1

The post by Tormod at 331 is at odds with your view of him. I would, also, be surprised if European Scot said that everyone was a "plant".
332

The Real Rufus T Firefly,

06/11/2009 14:32:56
337 Baggy Troosers,06/11/2009 14:28:03
#303

40! How dare you.
---------------------------------------------

Google have even put your picture on there homepage for the day to celebrate it.
333

brownlie,

06/11/2009 14:34:26
333 Conan

Greetings, Conan, fortunately they are few in number and getting fewer by the day.
334

union for ever,

06/11/2009 14:35:00
Only the sad and lonely are attracted to the SNP,it's a shame really,they bleat on about how the Labour party let Scotland down and yet,Tony Blair,and Gordon Brown are both Scottish. If you think they let Scotland down youy should see what they did to England and Wales!
335

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:39:13
#341

"The post by Tormod at 331 is at odds with your view of him."

My view is that he is fanatically devoted to the independence cause, that he does not accept any criticism of the SNP or its supporters, and that he attacks anyone who dares to criticise either.

My view of him is also that he is obsessed with trolls and their 'manure'.

His post at #331 does not contradict any of these views.
336

Conan the Librarian™,

06/11/2009 14:44:12
343
Aye, like beavers, they need lodges to breed.
Not been round my bit?
337

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 06/11/2009 14:46:07
334 Yeah 1*

Very very rare for any unionist to be critical of any unionist party or of the union or of Westminster...so most unionists are uber-fanatical fundamentalists who are beyond reason.

'I am no fan of Gordon Brown but'...is as far as it goes....everything is defensible in the name of the union no matter what political alliegience the individual may have.....

Unionism is a blind adherence to the kind of whispy nationalism that died off in the SNP in the mid 80s!
338

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 14:46:48
340 Unhealthy? So you are now saying I am not sane or rational I see, interesting narrative especially from yourself.

I am sort of person that believes you either believe in something 100% or you don't.

I will say it again having a belief in Scotland being a better country as an independent nation is rational and cognitive.

Being able to critise an idea is very different, you either believe in Scotland as a nation or you do not.

I am trying to work out how old you are especially after your last sentance.

Admit what? All HUMANS HAVE FAULTS YOU TOTAL AR$E ALL HUMANS MAKE MISTAKES.

Bigots support all political parties this is seemingly a total shock to you.

Yesterday Brownlie had to hold your hand and patiently explain things to you, today it's my turn.

So hoonster do you believe 100% in an independent Scotland?

YES or NO?

339

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 14:48:52
#347

"Very very rare for any unionist to be critical of any unionist party or of the union or of Westminster"

And it is equally rare for any SNP to be critical of the SNP, its supporters, or its leader - as rare as seeing a Dodo infact.

You for example - when were you last critical of the SNP or Salmond?

Perhaps you could point me to a post in which you criticise either?
340

John S,

06/11/2009 14:49:32
Iain Gray you must also agree that the re-enactment of the Battle of Prestonpans should not have been held this year because we are in a recession and an insult to ordinary families who are worried about their jobs ?

Next you will be saying that the annual re-enactment of the Battle of Prestonpans is basically a party political stunt for the SNP in East Lothian who have 9 out of the 23 councellors which is 2 more than Labour and was the leading party in the East Lothain EU 2009 elections.
341

Alan B,

06/11/2009 14:53:43
#Yeah1

Couple of things. You tend to presume that posters on this site are member of parties rather than just wishing to post a political point of view. As such posters are not representative of a party.

Secondly i would think more independence supporters support independence and see the snp as a vehicle to that end. And may or may not support the snp post independence. This is unlike some of the labour supporters on this site who support labour no matter what.

Finally re about accusation of certain posters being anti scottish.

I think there is a serious question. Whether someone wants the best for scotland in or out the union and whether someone just wants the union no matter the effect on scotland.

The only 2 unionist posters that answered my question Master and Smee both said they would rather have a poorer scotland within the union than a richer one outside.

If you do not want the best for your country then some of the adjectives you describe are probably accurate.
342

union for ever,

06/11/2009 14:55:34
347. If you believe that,then good luck to you pal you'll need it.
343

Alan B,

06/11/2009 14:55:52
#Yeah1

"And it is equally rare for any SNP to be critical of the SNP, its supporters, or its leader"

While your post was not addressed to me I am obvious a supporter of independence.

I have said regarding snp policy that I disagreed with a few areas. eg LIT. (alhtough supported the right of the scottish government to make that change if it had parliamentary support and disagreed with brown trying to play silly games like withholding council tax rebate monies).

344

Conan the Librarian™,

06/11/2009 14:56:59
349
I think the SNP's policy on alcohol is punishing the OAP for the crimes of the teenager, withdrawing from NATO a mistake, oh and John Swinney looks a bit like Himmler.
But I'm still going to vote for them.
345

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 14:59:54
345 I see I will have to exlain this AGAIN, perhaps Morse code is better than binary.

If any of the words I use are too hard for you to understand look up a dictionary.

I have already exlained my use of the troll and manure metaphor for folk like yourself, if you want me to explain what a metaphor is I can do so.

My crtitique are for those who say that Scotland would a basket case, defenceless, unworkable, a desert if we were independent.

By all means argue the unionist point of view but do so with intelligence.

So again do you believe in an independent Scotland YES or NO?
346

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:02:45
-351

You presume Scotland would be richer without the Union is a, ahem presumption.

Moreover, "Secondly I would think more independence supporters support independence...

You reckon?
How so?
Classic.
347

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:02:54
#348

"Unhealthy? So you are now saying I am not sane or rational I see, interesting narrative especially from yourself."

That is exactly what I am saying.

As I have said, having a fanatical, absolute belief in anything is not healthy - ask any psychologist.
348

Alan B,

06/11/2009 15:03:33
#Yeah1

Can you tell me one poster who has put a coherent argument for the union in its current form? (One that wants the best for scotland and not ones who scotland is of secordary importance to the union).
349

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:04:56
-351

Former US Secretary of State Margaret Allbright posed the same question to Slovakians when she questioned them on a united Czech and Slovak international football side.

Your point is?

350

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:07:41
#351

"The only 2 unionist posters that answered my question Master and Smee both said they would rather have a poorer scotland within the union than a richer one outside."

As did SNP MP John Mason apparently, although the other way round obviously (i.e. he would rather have a poorer independent Scotland than a richer one in the union).
351

CoI Blimp Vl,

06/11/2009 15:08:26
#354 Conan the Librarian™

Monte Cristo was banned last night...His only "crimes" were : talking to Ford Transit (Chuck seemed to have got away with that at #13) and posting the URL of your Blog.

Any clues???
352

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:10:06
-358


Your arrogance is astounding. To turn that on its head,

Can you tell me one poster who has put a coherent argument for separation?

That is, those who want the best for Scotland, not those for whom Scotland is of secordary importance to a blind determination to break from Britain)?

Note the CBI, small business, Scots students, etc all say 'NO'.
353

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:11:31
357 When I stop laughing at you, you'll have to give me a few moments.......

After you making yourself a complete ejit on voting %'s and trying to link the BNP to the SNP that's quite a narrative

Well I've not needed to see a health professional in a very long time.

So having a total belief in Scotland being an independent country is not healthy I see.

So again answer the question either you believe in :-

100% Independent Scotland or 100% United Kingdom

WHICH IS IT?

I am not alone in spotting your total lack of honesty in what politics you support.
354

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:11:34
-351

Moreover.

If your 'argument' is so strong, why do so FEW in Scotland actually agree with it?

Or are you seriously using this forum as a guage of support for separation?
355

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:12:11
-358, not -351

Moreover.

If your 'argument' is so strong, why do so FEW in Scotland actually agree with it?

Or are you seriously using this forum as a guage of support for separation?
356

Alan B,

06/11/2009 15:12:12
#WeeGirlie

The point is you would normally expect people from a country to want the best for their country eg the economy etc eg as it gives us better living standards.

I can understand people supporting the union if they think it is in scotland best interests.

But what is a bit of an eye opener is that the only unionist that will answer that question freely admit that Scotland and its interests like the economy is of secondary importance to the union. ie it is a union at all costs.

As such when poster Yeah says

"And it isn't unionists who spout such bile as:

Anti Scots
Quislings
Traitors
English lackeys
Fifth columnists"

These accusation are surprisingly true for some posters from a scottish national perspective.

Although they would argue that it is britain that matters to them and scotland is of little importance.
357

CoI Blimp Vl,

06/11/2009 15:12:19
Conan

Nice picture of Lord Foulksie by the way.
358

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:12:29
#355

"I have already exlained my use of the troll and manure metaphor for folk like yourself, if you want me to explain what a metaphor is I can do so."

In what way am I a 'troll'?

"By all means argue the unionist point of view but do so with intelligence."

As I have already said many, many times, I am not a unionist.

You need to realise, as I have said before, NOT everyone who criticises the SNP is automatically a unionist.

"So again do you believe in an independent Scotland YES or NO?"

Well obviously not otherwise I would vote SNP wouldn't I? Scotland being independent or not isn't a priority for me - there are far more important, worldwide things to care about than such a parochial issue.
359

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:13:48
-360

Ha! Funny.

Not the sharperst tool in the box, by any means.
360

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:17:38
-366

No, we see Scotland's interests best served from staying in the Union.

We've also seen what Salmond's promises mean.

Why should anyone believe his and his Utopian thoughts on separation?

Perhaps this is why only around 17% actually believe in our 'cause'. I mean, if the case HAS been made, why does the SNP pull in so few votes?


361

Alan B,

06/11/2009 15:20:43
#360 Yeah1

That is part of the problem with your responses.

You accuse snp supporters of not questioning and critising the snp but find someone like myself who had done so and yet do not acknowledge that your post while valid for some is not true in the sweeping way you made it.

Again here you do not deal with the reason for my post and why i made it to you. You post that it is bile for some to post that others are anti scots but when I post some evidence, that some do not put scotlands interest first before the uks you do not accept it and try to change it to something an snp guy may have said.

I am sure there are unionists that support the union because they see britain as more important and nats that support independence as soveriegn scotland is more important. And then alot of us in the middle who view either the union or independence because it is what they regard as best for scotland.

The unionist at all cost is by definition to put scotlands interests secondary as britain is the entity they are interest in.




362

CoI Blimp Vl,

06/11/2009 15:21:27
Refurbishing the home and garden of the former MP for Glasgow N E cost the taxpayer £1.7 million.

The bill includes more than £700,000 on furnishing and improving his official residence, figures released to The Daily Telegraph reveal.

Information released under freedom of information laws shows that since 2001, £148,900 has been spent on furniture for Speakers House; £191,000 on a new air-conditioning system; £13,000 on art and £291,000 on "building restoration and refurbishment".

In total, taxpayers have spent £724,600 on the residence since Mr Martin, 62, became Speaker in October 2000. A further £992,000 has been spent on the Speaker's garden.

The total expenditure on Mr Martin's residence is therefore more than £1.7 million.

Let's have a Party to celebrate his demise!
363

Alan B,

06/11/2009 15:23:48
#WeeGirlie

"No, we see Scotland's interests best served from staying in the Union."

You have obviously not understood my post.

While some unionists support the union as they think it is in the best interests of scotland some posters on here have freely admitted they support the union at all costs no matter the effect to scotland.

So maybe you will answer that question. If the economic evidence was that scotland would be richer off independent would you still support a poorer scotland within the union?
364

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:24:50
-366

"Although they would argue that it is britain that matters to them and scotland is of little importance."

You must know, unless you've been cooped up in a bunker full of cyberNats, that no Scot (irrespective of political viewpoint) cares more for Britain than Scotland. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

What you're seeking to suggest is because they DO NOT agree with the SNP, they are more loyal to Britain than Scotland.

For future reference - support for the SNP does not a Scotsman make.

You reflect accurately a key SNP faultline than gains it no credit and certainly results in an inability to recruit more to its point of view.

365

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:28:14
#363

After you making yourself a complete ejit on voting %'s and trying to link the BNP to the SNP that's quite a narrative"

I have never either made an 'ejit' of myself on voting percentages or tried to link the BNP to the SNP.

"So having a total belief in Scotland being an independent country is not healthy I see."

When did I say that? I said having a (as you admit) fanatical, absolute belief in anything in unhealty.

"I am not alone in spotting your total lack of honesty in what politics you support."

You seem to be under the illusion that everyone has a particular party they support.

You don't seem to understand that not everyone is like you - we don't all fanatically support one party whatever they do.

We don't all vote like sheep for a particular party, regardless of their policies.

Unlike you I have an open mind - I am able to rationally think about things, I do not fanatically believe in anything, I am able to accept criticism and I realise that no one and nothing is perfect.

If I did support a particular party, or had a preference in terms of independence v unionism I would gladly reveal it.
366

Alan B,

06/11/2009 15:30:37
#374 WeeGirlie

I do not know whether you are being deliberatley obtuse or just cannot read.

2 regular unionist posters Smee and Master both said that they would rather have a poorer scotland within the union. It was honest and that is to be praised but it does show where there loyalities lie.

People can argue about whether we would be better of independent or in the union. But i was surprised that posters on here would admit they would rather have a poorer scotland in the union as such the economic argument is irrelevent for them.

And they were the only 2 unionists to every reply to that question when posed all others have refused to answer.
367

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:32:00
368 You obviously need a lesson in politics. Strange that because I am sure you told me you had a politics degree?

It's interesting how you describe the current dialogue about the fundemental basis of Scotland's democratic future as either an independent country or part of the UK as parochial.

You do know what the Green party's position on an independent Scotland?

You do know that there are other political parties that support Independence?

If you do not believe in an independent Scotland but are not a unionist what are you?

What is you prefered model of Governance?
368

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:35:54
-373

The case for separation has to be the full deal. Economy, defence, the lot.

Once upon a time the SNP argued it was a point of principle for Scotland to go it alone. Now, the argument is to get it through the backdoor and point out "we'll all be rich".

For goodness sake, you've got £33bn to spend and can't be trusted to keep to your promises!!

369

KampungHighlander,

06/11/2009 15:38:01
#233 Wee Girlie

"Your "Butcher's Apron" reference is an insult to the young Scots who serve our country."

Why they don't like the hated rag either. They prefer the Saltire.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scotreg/iraq.htm
370

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:38:32
#371

"You accuse snp supporters of not questioning and critising the snp but find someone like myself who had done so and yet do not acknowledge that your post while valid for some is not true in the sweeping way you made it."

Yes you are right - there are some SNP supporters who are able to criticise the party, and accept criticism of the party - you and Conan have proved that today. I just wish others like 'Tormod' could follow your lead.

Regarding 'anti Scots' - yes of course someone who doesn't care about Scotland and would prefer to see it ruined could be called an 'anti Scot'.

My problem is that certain posters automatically accuse anyone who even slightly criticises the SNP of being 'anti Scots' or 'quislings' - as if the SNP is somehow the same as 'Scotland' and its people.

Such people would probably also label you an 'anti Scot' for saying you don't agree with LIT for example.

Obviously such behaviour is not healthy - it should be a democratic right to criticise a particular political party and not be immediately accused of being a traitor to your own country - the Nazis used such tactics in the 1930s.
371

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:40:53
-353

Where I work, the SNP gained itself no friends with the callous dumping of its LIT.

Nor did they believe Swinney when he said he dropped it because it lacked parliamentary support.

If it was 'the real deal' he should have brought it forward regardless.

The reason he didn't was because it would then have been open to scrutimy, and it's presumed failings picked apart and ridiculed within and without the SP.

This way, he thinks he has retained the all boxes ticked mystique about it. Not that anyone seriously believes such tosh.

372

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:41:37
-379

Provide the evidence, please.
373

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:43:49
375 Oh yes you did when you tied yourself in knots over %'s in the Euro's, who managed to get threads shut down, was it myself or you? It was you.

Quote:-

My quote "So having a total belief in Scotland being an independent country is not healthy I see."

Your Quote "When did I say that? I said having a (as you admit) fanatical, absolute belief in anything in unhealty."

I will leave that there just to highlight the wee contradiciton in your very short sentance. Jings that takes talent. If you want to me explain how you contradicted yourself I shall be happy to oblige.

I take it you had trouble reading my posts at 331 and 348.
374

CoI Blimp Vl,

06/11/2009 15:44:20
#WeeGirlie

Hugh Gaitskill said of the prospect of Britain joining a monolithic European Superstate..."It would mark the end of Britain as an independent State and the end of one thousand years of History".

Clearlly Gaitskill believed in the importance of self-government but made no distinction between England and Britain, few Englishmen of his generation did.

In fact the only people who do now, are Scottish Unionists, who think if they close their eyes and wish really hard...300 years of a Master and bond-servant relationship, will miraculously morph into a partnership of equals.
375

Eduardinho,

06/11/2009 15:44:33
#356
Norway is a lot wealthier than Scotland, yet they are not part of the union with England
How do you explan that?
Some facts ; Same population size, same resources
376

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:46:54
#377

"You obviously need a lesson in politics. Strange that because I am sure you told me you had a politics degree?"

In what way do I need a 'lesson' in politics? Exactly what is it that you seem to think I don't understand about politics?

"It's interesting how you describe the current dialogue about the fundemental basis of Scotland's democratic future as either an independent country or part of the UK as parochial."

Do you know what parochial means?

Of course Scotland's independence is a parochial issue - its hardly important in the worldwide scheme of things is it? Similarily Quebec's independence is a parochial issue.

There are far more important worldwide things to worry about than whether a country (which has only been in existence for about 1% of the time humans have walked the earth) is independent or not.
377

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:46:55
380 My that didn't take you long to play your joker.
378

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:47:40
-376

Your 'evidence' has me gasping for breath at its absurdity.

You quote 2 individual posters on this forum.

Excuse me??? I know it's Friday and you're probably looking forward to the weekend, but ARE YOU SERIOUS??????

Ask YouGov or ICM to conduct the poll.
379

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:49:26
-386

I'll bet they all intend to vote SNP too, lol.
380

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:50:11
#387

"who managed to get threads shut down, was it myself or you?"

I would imagine it was people posting insults and intolerant, hate-filled bile. It certainly wasn't me since I did neither.
381

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 15:52:32
-388

Hugh Gaitskell?

Wasn't he our Prime Minister in the early 50s?

To find support for your argument you have to go back nearly six decades?

Remove the monacle, Col. and smell the coffee. It's nearly 2010!!

I mean, seriously.....
382

brownlie,

06/11/2009 15:52:43
377 Tormod

Tormod, a charaid, it seems if you disagree with Yeah1 you need psychological help. Following his advice yesterday I took psychological advice. It seems if I stop referring to my own name in the third person I am okay so I've stopped doing that and am feeling great.

However, the psychologist said that if I ever felt the need to post on this site as two persons to lend weight to my posts, admit it and then later on deny it that I should seek help immediately.
383

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:52:54
#381 'I have the answers'

"You did, you argued with Spook over voting % in the European elections and were thumped into the ground big time."

1. I'm not AM2, and never have been

2. In what way was I 'thumped into the ground'? what exactly did I apparently argue about voting percentages?

3. Who exactly are you? I don't recall ever seeing your moniker on here before - who have you been previously and why have you changed your moniker?
2.
384

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:53:33
391 Well I think you do need a lesson in politics.

Yes I know what parochial means, so again discussing how the basic nature of the democracy we live in is parochial?

Quote "There are far more important worldwide things to worry about than whether a country (which has only been in existence for about 1% of the time humans have walked the earth) is independent or not."

Such as? So how do achieve those aims by democracy or dictatorship? And if that is the case if the independence v unionist argument is so parochial why are you on here?

385

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 15:54:35
#392

"My that didn't take you long to play your joker."

What 'joker' have I apparently played?
386

TWC,

exLabour 06/11/2009 15:58:22
152 Dougie Dougla
Explain your post, just cause I didn't like what SLAB stands for? and I cannot stick Big dreary vindictive Brown who has ruined the UK and the Labour party.

You are a poodle and all you do is attack the Nats but like current Labour -- NAE POLICIES.

I have no identity Crisis, I support Labour a la John Smith and I detest Brown/Blair and their means tested southern Socialists.
I'm pro SCOTTISH unions and pro Full Fiscal Autonomy as preached by Kier Hardie, Cunninghamme Graham and John Smith.
I've read your posts you are as successful against posters like Alan B, Meths and Jimmie as Gray is against Salmond .
Only Yeah 1 Sedov and on his saner days Grahamski ever debate policy.
387

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:58:42
401 Aye nice one Brownlie LOL Maybe Yeah could supply me with the address of his psychologist.
388

The west awake,

Argyll 06/11/2009 15:59:19
From todays Herald.
"A radical pilot scheme that uses ex-offenders to rehabilitate prisoners has almost trebled the rate of those going into work or training on release."

- I don't know whether this will work long-term or not, but I do know this is a good example of the kind of thing we need to be looking at to solve Scotlands chronic prison population and re-offending problem.

In comparison with this SNP initiative, I listened to Willie Rennie of "Scottish" Labour berate David Kerr of the SNP last night for being "soft on crime".

Cynical sound-bites from a desperate Party, who would rather carry on banging people up in jail as long as it gets them a few votes.

Vote Labour for hopelessness and helplessness.
389

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 15:59:52
406 That's why you are the hoonster.
390

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/11/2009 16:04:28
#391 Yeah1

"Of course Scotland's independence is a parochial issue - its hardly important in the worldwide scheme of things is it? Similarily Quebec's independence is a parochial issue. There are far more important worldwide things to worry about than whether a country (which has only been in existence for about 1% of the time humans have walked the earth) is independent or not."

You seem to vote an inordinate amount of your time to a subject that you think is parochial. Maybe you need a hobby.
391

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:04:51
413 Uncle Buck would be proud.
392

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:05:52
An observation.

Why do separatists (usually them) say they are tired of argument cos they are right and others are wrong, then post to let everyone know they are off?

And on that note, I'm away for my tea....

393

CoI Blimp Vl,

06/11/2009 16:09:32
#Wee Girlie - "To find support for your argument you have to go back nearly six decades".

To find a trustworthy Unionist politician?

Yes!
394

European Scot,

06/11/2009 16:10:40
334 Yeah1

"One poster, 'European Scot' even had the temerity to suggest that every 'intolerant bigoted' SNP supporter on here is actually a 'plant' by the 'Brit Nat State'!"

If you are going to quote me please try and be reasonably accurate.
The suggestion that "every' intolerant bigoted' SNP supporter ..." , was actually:-

"So the question is how authentic are posters such as the two you have quoted."

"We are dealing with a Brit Nat State prepared to do whatever is necessary to keep the Union intact, so placing one or two plants on a site like this is not such a far fetched idea. "

So apart from whether this point is worthy of consideration in your trusting evenly balanced mind or not, it was about one or two plants, not as you have suggested' every'.

So it's my 'temerity' against your exaggeration !
395

Alan B,

06/11/2009 16:11:45
#WeeGirlie

I notice you have avoided asking the question I posed.

Are we to draw our own conclusions from your answer.
396

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:11:59
417 Oh aye a very funny film and a very funny man.
397

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 06/11/2009 16:12:59
Belief; the final doubt to dispel.

Belief in the Union has been dispelled by its acts and omissions.

The banal belief that an institution which holds an 85% majority interest will act in an equitable fashion, especially during times of crises, towards an 8.5% minority.

It is the triumph of subservience and insecurity imposed on a nation state by a minute minority of power brokers in order to maintain their power base.

Belief in Scotland's independence, whatever the pro's or con's, is the manifestation of a mind that rejects the propaganda of the above limitations. It see's them for what they are, the disingenuous manipulations to disguise their birthright as an irrelevance and deny their freedom by arcane statutes.

Ultimately it's the concept of a fair union within these Islands that falls into the realms of romanticism.
398

Alan B,

06/11/2009 16:19:10
#394 WeeGirlie

I think you should waken up. My post was in response to another post. As such it was talking about other posters on this forum. As such you post completely misses the point of what was being discussed.

399

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 16:19:25
#407

"Oh hang on a sec. In one sentence you say you are not AM2 but in the next you are happy to answer a question related to him. You see your getting into a bit of a mess."

In post #381 you addressed AM2 and then included my quote:

"I have never either made an 'ejit' of myself on voting percentages"

And stated in response to my quote: "YOU did, YOU argued with Spook over voting % in the European elections and were thumped into the ground big time."

If you were addressing AM2 in that post why on earth did you use a quote from me, Yeah1, and talk to me, Yeah1?

I would suggest it is you who is 'getting into a bit of a mess' if you address one poster and then use quotes from another and attribute them to the first poster...
400

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:20:59
-389

They are a part of Nato, but have no wish to join the SNP in the EU.

How do you explain that?
Just an idea - why don't the SNP suggest copying Norway?
401

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:22:32
-418

Praise, indeed.
402

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:23:48
420 You will find Yeah1 like Tavish is very selective in their use of quotes.
403

Alan B,

06/11/2009 16:23:53
#431 WeeGirlie

I notice in response to #389 you avoid answering his question.

That is the problem you will find with unionists on these forums they cannot really defend the union and hence just try to avoid the issues as you have done here.
404

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:25:02
-419

SIXTY YEARS ago and SIXTY YEARS near deid!!

Also carried on an affair behind his ife's back for decades. Nowadays, our parliamentarians cheat on their wives in hotels and the like.

Homework time.
405

Yeah1,

06/11/2009 16:27:54
#420

"So apart from whether this point is worthy of consideration in your trusting evenly balanced mind or not, it was about one or two plants, not as you have suggested' every'."

So you admit therefore that not every intolerant, bigoted SNP supporter on here is a 'plant' and that some are infact just intolerant bigots who support the SNP?
406

brownlie,

06/11/2009 16:31:59
397 Yeah1

"I would imagine it was people posting insults and hate-filled bile. It certainly was not me since I did neither."

What about these:

"You appear to have a very inflated ego and sense of your own worth (a bit like the Leader of the SNP"

"You are too stupid to understand what I tell you"

"Since you are an insignificant, unimportant poster"

"Ask any sensible, intelligent SNP supporter (there are one or two, surprisingly)"

"You are removed from reality and suffering from a kind of identity disorder"

Insults or compliments?
407

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:34:23
440 Brownlie what would Yeah1's psychologist say about those remarks?
408

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:36:57
-427

Deep breath. Ready?
Clarification.

"#394 WeeGirlie

I think you should waken up. My post was in response to another post. As such it was talking about other posters on this forum. As such you post completely misses the point of what was being discussed."

Note the -394 - my response to your (-376). Which was a response to -374 who was, yep, MEEEEE!!!

I know it's Friday, but.....

409

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:37:45
I see Spook has spotted Willie Bain's piece in the Steamie is not what it appears to be.

His election strategy is to stand for Labour party but not to stand and agree with Labour party policy, I take it the great Scottish press will ask him to explain that to the El Gordo live in camera.
410

European Scot,

06/11/2009 16:39:06
433 Tormod

Selective, and prone to exaggeration.
It must be very difficult sitting on a fence, and looking in both directions at the same time.
411

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:40:12
443 I thought the old tory had chucked it in?
412

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:40:20
-437

I didn't go - I was being sarcastic. Ho hum..

It is mince n taties though - because I'm a true Scot.
413

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:42:23
446 Could Yeah1 be a closet Libdum?
414

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 16:43:46
450 Is that yourself Spook?
415

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:43:53
Heads up.

Norway is the SNP's 'go to guy'. Again.
Not Iceland, not Ireland. Norway.

Got it. The Norwegians are toasting their good fortune on the streets of Oslo as we speak.
416

WeeGirlie,

06/11/2009 16:44:53
Bain to win on November 12.
Wonder if the SNP beats the BNP.
417

Baggy Troosers,

06/11/2009 16:48:04
#342.

Naw Rupert, I think thats you and Captain Pugwash, aka Mandrake at the Seaside
418

European Scot,

06/11/2009 16:53:38
438 Yeah1

"So you admit therefore that not every intolerant, bigoted SNP supporter on here is a 'plant' and that some are infact just intolerant bigots who support the SNP?"

So you still won't admit exaggerating by claiming that I used the word 'every'.

I have never commented that "every intolerant , bigoted SNP supporter is a plant'." that would be ridiculous, but ignoring the possibility that one or two might be, would be equally foolish.
419

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/11/2009 17:00:44
459 How's your bike after the dug incident? Think yourself lucky I've had a few half bricks chucked at me on that cycle path laddie.