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Amateur treasure hunter strikes £1m gold

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Published Date: 04 November 2009
HE USED to sweep the roads at Scotland's biggest safari park, clearing lion dung from its roads. Now amateur treasure hunter David Booth could be in line for a £1 million fortune, after discovering a rare haul of Iron Age gold with his metal detector.
In what has been described as an archaeological find of national significance, Mr Booth found the treasure in a field near Stirling. The 35-year-old was taken aback when the beeping on his device revealed four torcs, or neckbands, three of which are in near perfect condition.

The precise location of the find has not been disclosed so as to prevent a stampede of treasure hunters taking to the site. Mr Booth, chief game warden at Blair Drummond Safari Park, was not at home yesterday, and is believed to be in a hotel ahead of a press conference today.

A spokesman for the National Museums of Scotland declined to comment, as did staff at the safari park. Mr Booth has worked at the tourist attraction since he was 19 – when he worked clearing the roads through the lion enclosure.

Quite how well he will be rewarded remains to be seen. Under Scots law, the Crown has the right to claim any find, with any payments made at their discretion. It is anticipated, however, that he will receive somewhere in the region of a six-figure sum.

Whatever the outcome, it appears there is no doubting the value of the finds, which date from the 1st to the 3rd century BC – an era before the Romans invaded Britain.

One of the necklaces is a ribbon torc, and appears to have been made from twisted Irish or Scottish sheet gold. Another is encrusted with small circles of gold wire and beads of gold that look like pearls, with two fine gold chains acting as fasteners.

A source close to a team that excavated the site in the wake of the find said: "We've never seen anything like this before. The workmanship is breathtaking. Some of the gold wire used is the thickness of your finger. No-one here wants to put a price on it. One of the guys said that there were a lot of silly figures flying around."

Dr Fiona Watson, a research association at the UHI Millennium Institute's Centre for History, described the torcs as of "huge significance". She added: "The neckbands are of such national significance that they must be kept in Scotland. In the past something like this would have gone to London, but there is no way they should leave Scotland."

The items, she said, proved the elite members of that age were "wealthy, sophisticated, and able to trade with the Continent".

"They would have belonged to someone who was a very important local leader. He is saying: 'Bling – look at me, and how important I am.'"

The torcs are now being held at the Treasure Trove Unit at the Edinburgh headquarters of the National Museums of Scotland. The unit's Scottish Archaeological Finds Allocation Panel will decide their value.

BACKGROUND

UNDER the common law of Scotland, all treasure trove belongs to the Crown.

Discoveries are valued by the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer (QLTR), which accepts objects on the Crown's behalf, and arranges for them to be housed in public museums around the country, acting on the advice of the Scottish Archaeological Finds Advisory Panel.

In most cases, the QLTR will make an ex-gratia payment to the finder once the museum has paid the Crown Office. Finders can waive their reward, thereby saving a museum the purchase price of the find.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 November 2009 12:18 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 00:20:02
It just goes to show how wealthy the people of Scotland would now be if it wasn't for the 'British' attempt at emulating the Romans and constantly siphoning the wealth from where ever they could starting with Scotland.

Perhaps everyone would be able to cut about with fancy Gold necklaces by now.
2

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 00:26:23

Some people just have 'all the luck', a lucky find indeed, you just do not know what is lurking about underground, a fortune for David Booth, that's for sure.



3

Inspector Cluedo,

Nagano-ken - Home to Japan's finest distillery 04/11/2009 04:59:40
"Amateur treasure hunter strikes £1m gold"
I'm all for a catchy headline, but why this compulsion to distort, fabricate, or needlessly exaggerate?
While it is certainly a valuable find in every sense, what utter nonsense to be spouting forth with imaginary values before the experts have even got a remit to value!
Let's restore some integrity to journalism - in general - and this paper in particular!
4

Age of Reason,

Aberdeen 04/11/2009 05:08:34
Linskaill...what's this about 'luck'?? As Arnold Palmer retorted to a heckler "the more I practice, the luckier I get". The guy has a hobby and he takes it seriously, with diligence. Now he has been successful and we are all winners. But luckiest of all is that the guy is honest and has trusted the system to look after his 'lucky find'.

Not just intrinsic value, but an attractive piece of art that will enhance our nation's status now (in the valuable touristic archaeological and specialist fields), just as the torcs enhanced the staus of the original owners.
The work starts now, so everyone can benefit. No more cheap easy comments. (esp from No.3 - what are you on about??)
5

Aman,

Inverleith 04/11/2009 05:08:53
A lottery ticket might give a better return , whilst helping good causes. Who knows what lies around our fields and gardens. a pile of stones can be as much value as gold and silver to explain the past.
6

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

04/11/2009 05:43:42
Fitba Krazy
#1
Whereas the picture above is all torc with a great deal of substance you on the other hand are all talk with very little substance. Where do you get this “It just goes to show how wealthy the people of Scotland would now” aberration from?
7

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/11/2009 05:57:21
There's a company who advertise "we buy gold for cash" on the telly. He should get in touch with them. I can't imagine they're too fussy about whether he actually owns the stuff he found.
8

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/11/2009 06:02:15
#1 - it's a well known fact the The English have been constantly siphoning the wealth of the Scottish People since the times of the Romans. We'd all be driving about in solid gold chariots drawn by teams of unicorns if it wasn't for The English. And Glasgow City Council bumping up the rent on that failed business venture of yours in Whiteinch.
9

Iain Sherwood,

San Leandro, California 04/11/2009 06:08:37
Even if Mr. Booth is reimbursed for the find, how much will the Inland Revenue gather to their corrective bosom?
10

Fifi la Bonbon,

04/11/2009 06:13:14
#9 - the appropriate rate. Shouldn't people pay tax?
11

neilmarr,

France 04/11/2009 06:19:47
***It is anticipated, however, that he will receive somewhere in the region of a six-figure sum.***

Well, you can't get more specific than that, eh? Gosh the standard of reporting in the UK press has fallen apart at the seams. Neil
12

Baggy Troosers,

04/11/2009 06:35:36
Lets hope this find stays in Scotland and does'nt find its way to London.

Tell the "Crown" to go jump in the Thames
13

george toot toot,

Europe 04/11/2009 07:09:49
Before clamouring about the English siphoning off wealth - first ask the question "Who inhabited the geographical area now known as Scotland in the 1-3 centuries BC?" http://www.stravaiging.com/scottish-history/pictish/ Wasn't it the Picts who were in power till the "Scots" took over in 843AD. The whole of Britain was colonised with people of a common origin - the tribal, then country separation was simply because many people wanted power. But then things should be kept where they are found regardless of national greed. This means that all foreign objects in Britain should be returned to their country of origin.
14

McNasty,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 07:30:32
Good luck to David Booth.

Yes they should stay in Scotland and on display in Stirling Castle.
15

Age of Reason,

Aberdeen 04/11/2009 08:07:24
No13 ... you are clearly confused or ignorant. Being Scots I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
The extraction of wealth by our southern neighbours is an auditable fact. But we Scots are comfortable with that, having in general extracted our share. In fact we invented the modern banking system and founded the ill-named "Bank of England" to facilitate the process.
The great benefit bequeathed to us modern Scots by our ancestors of 5 gene-pools (Viking, Anglian, Briton, Pictish and Scots) is an awareness of identity, because we had to fightr for it and will continue to do so. This 'find' is part of that ancestry and identity, and should remain in Scotland.
16

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 08:51:42
#12, and others. The finds will stay in Scotland. I would guess that one would be displayed in as local a suitable museum as possible, one or two (depending on how similar they are) would be displayed in Edinburgh and whatever is left will be added to the vast pile of stuff in boxes at the NMS. Legally speaking, the find has to stay in Scotland (unless special permission is given for it to leave, to participate in special exhibitions, etc..).

#13 They website you linked to is a curious mixture of mythology, and long discarded historical theory.
17

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 09:07:59
#1 The terms "England" and "Scotland" are, of course, meaningless when discussing that period of history - but, what some people don't seem to get, it is perfectly correct to use them when talking about the history of those places. Just like, for example, it's appropriate to describe information about Rheged as a part of the history of Cumbria. Installing a desire to "be like the Romans" in the local elite was, of course, the main way the Romans actually added regions to their empire, and the incompatible social structure among Caledonian tribes was the main reason that the furthest "Rome" ever extended in the British Isles was the Gask line.
18

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 09:23:22
This is unfair. the man should be able to flog these to the highest bidder and take the dosh.

Whay should they remain in Scotland?

If that's the case 90% of the contents of the national Museum of Scotlansd should be shipped back to their country of origin.
19

dieselted,

Picton 04/11/2009 09:26:01
And think i was born in Stirling and did'nt know it was there. Good luck.
20

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 09:28:37
#18 Sorry, but "finders keepers" does not apply to archaeological finds. We've already lost far too much stuff, so we need to make sure that all finds are properly dealt with thse days.
21

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 09:37:08
Boll ox.
22

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 09:42:33
#21 "Boll ox"

Well, that's your view and you're welcome to it. Fortunately, such crass ignorance and disregard for history, heritage and culture is pretty rare these days. Also fortunately, the legal position is as I described it.
23

Mise,

Scottish Borders 04/11/2009 09:58:25
#16 I haven't looked at the whole website, however the page that #13 linked to is spot on. The photos of some of the symbol stones linked to are stunningly clear.
24

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 10:25:24
#23 It is wrong in a few aspects, but I suppose it does give a decent overview to the layman. You should check the RCAHMS database (CANMORE at www.rcahms.gov.uk) for nice pictures of Pictish symbols.
25

Iain MS,

Newcastle 04/11/2009 10:34:05
You're all missing the point completely, as usual. The most important fact is the increased wealth that can now be created through profits and wages by the Scottish anorack industry. Just think how many ermine, mohair and even gold plated ones he'll be able to buy now. But seriously folks.......Good luck to David, he's obviously put in many, many hours searching and has at last come up trumps.
26

Nelson51,

Newcastle 04/11/2009 10:38:58
Million pound treasure, finder could receive a six figure sum. I always thought 1 million was a seven figure sum !. So he could get just £100,000 pounds ?. Is this due to recession then ?. He should get a fair evaluation for his find to encourage other metal detectorists to come forward with their finds. No doubt the site is now off limits to anyone other than archeologists. What if they discover another four torcs, then do they get the money ?.
27

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 10:59:14
#26 The law covers all finds, whether made by a guy with a metal detector or by a team of archaeologists on an organised dig. I'm glad archaeologists are on the site, and that it's being kept secret, as finds in themselves can tell us surprisingly little if they come to our attention having been separated from the context they are discovered in.
28

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 11:27:00
6, DeanConinPeteFSteed,

Phew That's a mouthful and a half. Could you not have came up with something that makes sense and put a few spaces in yer moniker?

The Romans came and tried but failed to take over Scotland however much plundering was indeed done by them followed by the 'British' who tried with more than a modicum of success to do the same by plundering countries all over the place starting with Scotland only to squander it all with their absurd notions of global superiority.

If that lacks the substance you seem to think it does or rather I do for simply stating the facts then I would suggest you go and get your head looked at. What a numpty.

Yes it is a lovely looking piece of jewellery and I am sure the workmanship is excellent as one would expect considering the people who made it.

It is just as well they were buried as either the Romans or the 'British would no doubt have misappropriated them long ago.

Does that make it easier for you.
?
29

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 11:41:55
8 Fifi La Bonbon,

Oh sweetie wifie Fifi or should that be nippy sweetie wifie Fifi has to add her own tint or rather taint to the story.

Yes Fifi, you got the first part right about the Romans and the dastardly other lot, however you are way off the mark with your uneducated rant about our studios that started as a single rehearsal room and fairly quickly became an 8 track recording studio then two studios then 16 Track then 24 track then 4 studios all before the corrupt Glasgow Council got involved and made it disappear. Since this thread is not about that I won't bother telling you about the vast amount of money I made and how I ended up with so much stuff I had to give it away rather than let those dastardly corrupt fools get their hands on it.

I buried some expensive items in a secret mysterious location so that some lucky geezer will come across it and be very happy indeed.

They might even think the Romans played electric guitars and stuff by the time they come across my stash. Hardly a failure my dear. Now away and pick up yer coupon afore ye fa oer it.
30

Beagles Rule,

Hamilton 04/11/2009 11:50:46
So the queen gets a cut (who decides %), the tax people will be paying attention as well I presume. Whoever own the field gets something as well, right?

Too bad he couldn't find something like this in the States. He could at least tell the Queen to take a hike.
I hope he gets paid properly.
31

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 12:04:40
13 George Toot Toot,

Actually Stirling is in what is now Scotland and those called the Scoti and those called the Picts were the same people closely related who shared a common goal of getting shot of the Romans from their lands. They were apparently given the names we know them as by others and what they were called doesn't actually matter at all as it doesn't alter the fact that they well and truly kept the Romans at bay for a few hundred years and saved the place for us to now have a Countries of our own.

I am very glad some of my ancestors done just that as we now have the opportunity of finally ousting the other lot's hands from our country known as Scotland and rediscover the greatness we surely once had before the interfering imposters came along and tried to integrate us into their inferior way of life as slaves and lackeys.
32

rapidly,

04/11/2009 12:32:58
troy gold is retailing today at 1090 dollars an ounce - So the necklace looks like it is about 2 lbs in weight, so a melted down (if pure, i.e. unlikely) price would be around $70k, <$40k retail. Therefore, £100k (which is the minimum of 6 figs) seems like not a bad deal!!

pity the safari park can't have a gold exhibit - it would boost numbers to the attraction.
33

bawheid,

canada 04/11/2009 13:15:02
As Craig Ferguson put it `A country of unjustifiable hubris and mindless bigotry` It shows up daily here regardless of the subject.Blame England for everything! Glad I left 50 years ago !
34

RSBuff,

US of A 04/11/2009 13:41:38
I keep saying that everyone in Europe needs to get a metal detector and sweep everywhere. There is no telling what may be buried under your garden. Too much history piled on top of too much history...
35

Scottydawg,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 13:46:06
#9 Iain and # 10 Fifi A note from the tax man:

"If the finding of the object is promptly reported the Crown will repay the full value of the treasure trove to the finder as a reward if it wishes to retain the object. Alternatively it will return the object to the finder and he or she is then free to dispose of it as they wish. The landowner does not have any rights as regards an object that is treasure trove." That's a bit rough on the poor farmer I'd say.

However, I understand that treasure trove is taxed as a capital gain i.e. difference between acquisition and disposal price minus annual allowance multiplied by 18% or £16,182 on a gain of £100,000, assuming full annual allowance is available.

In short, the tax man would get his cut.
36

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 13:59:24
bawheid,

Who is "blaming England for everything"?

There are many in Canada who have a rather different opinion to yours, incidentally.

Many of us have English ancestry too you know and are simply stating facts as we have learned them to be.

Why the big attempt at keeping Scotland tied to LONDON WESTMINSTER control.

Anyway, hopefully Lianachan is correct and the items indeed stay in Scotland where they were discovered.
37

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 04/11/2009 14:58:27
These finds are of national rather than mere local significance and the appropriate museum would be the National Museum in Edinburgh. It would be displayed there in its context. As for #30 Beagle's comment about the Queen getting her share, that is nonsense. Today the "Crown" really means "The People" and it will be up to the Scottish Government to decide where the objects should go.
38

A Clamper,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 15:00:35
Contrary to some of the assumptions above about "obviously putting in many many hours of metal detecting" etc. the guy had just bought the detector and took seven steps from his car before turning it on and getting lucky. He can now safely chuck the detector as the chances of him finding anything else valuable are extremely remote.
39

Fowlin Wolf,

04/11/2009 15:01:41
It would be a delight for the finder to see his wonderful Archaeological discovery on display in the British Museum.

Perhaps the financial reward will allow him to study Archaeology on a full time basis.

Perhaps he could also buy some monkeys for Blair Drummond Safari Park to replace the ones which "dissapeared".
40

Charles MacRorie,

Puyallup 04/11/2009 16:05:57
Such a gaggle of wits! I find it rather civilized and admirable that the Crown will actually pay him the value of his finds.

But what this sort of thing always brings to my mind is the fact that the Greeks and Romans were trading for Irish gold long before Cesar came. They wrote about our gold crafting, and considered the Celts of the isles to be among the finest gold workers in the world.

So where were these ancient Irish gold mines? Where did it come from? Here in the U.S. now that the value of gold has risen so high, many gold mines that were closed, and widely considered "played out" a century and more ago, have now reopened to extract the remaining small bits of ore.

Also, how and where did the gold, silver, copper, bronze, and early iron smiths work in Erin, Caledonia, and Britain? I have read of copper mines in the south. This sort of find proves that our ancient artisans, the Aos Dana, were as good as any in the world. Were there centers or schools where talented smiths gathered to learn, refine, and practice their crafts? Have any ever been found and researched?
41

Hobbe,

04/11/2009 16:26:36
Of course this find should remain on display in Scotland.

42

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 16:27:41
#40 Some centres for ancient goldsmiths in Ireland are well known, as are several locations in Scotland where gold can (and, presumably, always could) be found.
43

Dr Mike,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 17:13:29
This man is so extremely lucky to have found an extremely rare hoard having just bought a metal detector!!!! or theres more to it?
44

Front Street,

Grange Court 04/11/2009 17:50:58
Once again the thread has been hijacked by the SNP
mafia.. Good grief are they so insecure?
45

MattyMat,

Cali 04/11/2009 18:25:12
He probably has a whole closet filled with national treasures he just calls "trinkets". I'd search his home as well-- he could be a billionaire!!
46

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 18:38:18
Fitba Krazy - I've now seen images of the objects, and at least a couple them don't look like they were locally made.
47

Paco,

04/11'09 04/11/2009 18:44:37
well done enjoy the money mate!
48

SECESSION NOW,

04/11/2009 18:52:38
33
bawbagheid,
canada 04/11/2009 13:15:02


If you were in Canada, then they do not deserve you. However we know from your IP Address that you are from West Lothian probably sitting in a damp council flat flicking through the porn channels and fantasising about the life you might have had if you were not such a bawbagheid.
49

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

04/11/2009 20:40:52
Fitba Krazy
#28
This is always the error made about the Romans and Scotland. The reality was after Mons Graupius the Romans were all set to overrun the Caledonians when the Emperor Domition ordered Agricola back to Rome to help resolve the more pressing military crisis on the Rhine and Danube frontiers. Had they wanted to take over the whole of Scotland after Mons Graupius there wouldn’t have been a great deal the Caledonians could have done. The Romans could have taken over Scotland but didn’t take the opportunity. This is the only reason we can say we weren’t totally conquered.
The only evidence of plunder under the Romans comes from a made up speech by Tacitus. That said some would have been done after battles. The idea the British followed on is madness, timescale should tell anyone this. Any plundering worldwide surprisingly occurred after Scottish regiments took part.
You wouldn’t know a straight fact if it tweaked you on the nose.
50

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

04/11/2009 20:52:38
#48 SECESSION NOW

They may not deserve him...but finders keepers - he's theirs now.

Or perhaps he is a naturalised American, like the seldom quoted, former Mr Bing Hitler.

Certainly a kindred spirit, wherever he may be.
51

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

04/11/2009 21:04:32
#49 DeanConinPeteFSteed

Why do you think the Romans conquered most of Europe and North Africa...because they liked building roads and "civilizing" people?

Tacitus made up the speech but the words he put in Calgicus' mouth were the words he knew Calgicus would say if he could see the big picture, presumably he had no reason to doubt that he did...in technicolor.
52

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 22:01:32
There is absolutely nothing known about Calgacus apart from the speech Tacitus makes up for him before the battle. Check for a suspiciously similar speech made before Alesia, by a Gaul at an earier date... There's no evidence that Calgacus even existed. Or, for that matter, the Mons Graupus even actually happened. I'm sure there was a battle, as Tacitus couldn't have got away with making it up entirely, but its scale and importance are almost certainly grossly exaggerated. Tacitus' objective was to big up his father-in-law, not to relate history. The Romans tried often, and hard, enough to add Caledonia to their empire, and they failed every time. They did not fail on the battlefield. There was no large single Caledonian army for them to fight against. They failed because of the structure of native society. Please read "The Flavian Conquest of Northern Scotland" (Wooliscroft) for details based on archaeology, not hagiography.
53

Lianachan,

Highlands 04/11/2009 22:38:17
On the off chance anybody actually does want to broaden their knowledge or the Romans in Scotland, the book I mentioned above is actually "The Flavian Occupation Of Northern Scotland", not "Conquest".
54

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 22:46:39
49 DeanConinPeteFSteed,

Ha Ha Ha, What a stupid thing to say. It was a trap set for the Romans, you know, to draw them in and wipe them out.

If they hadn't done a runner after Mons Graupius they would have disappeared completely as the Picts were waiting for them.

Why, if they had routed the Picts at Mons Graupius did they GTF?

More pressing engagement my bahooky, they got chased oot o the whole o Europe. Now gies piece wi yer pro Roman mince.
55

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 23:42:50
Cntd.

Why, if it would have been so easy did they have to build Hadrians wall and retreat back behind it after the failed Antonine project that lasted only 20 years or so?

They had several HUNDRED years to move North and take over from the 'Picts' and the 'Caledonians' and the Scoti but got stuck behind a wall and even that didn't stop the Picts & co cutting through and routing them all the way to London and taking back some of the stuff they had plundered.

See:- http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/histdates.html
56

Fitba Krazy,

04/11/2009 23:59:42
BTW,

I would treat the bit about warring tribes with a pinch of salt. Minor skirmishes perhaps.

If they were warring tribes how come they managed to unify and rout the Romans in London? How did they make it all the way to London?

Also if the Scots and the Picts and the Saxons joined together to chase the Romans and rout London then the Scoti must already have been over here at some point around or before 360AD where they met up and how who knows but they most likely were the same people or closely related to start with, imo.
57

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 00:21:26


http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/Celtic_Solidarity/earlyindex.htm

58

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 01:11:22
Fitba Krazy
#54 & #55 & #56
No No No bad mistake mixing up your history so badly. Yes Mons Graupius was likely a trap of sorts. The Caledonians out numbered the Romans about two to one. Unfortunately the Romans had a tight formation and were disciplined. This is why the Caledonians were so comprehensively beaten. The idea that a group, the picts, not known at the time until merger maybe centuries later were waiting is ludicrous, the Romans spent time taking hostages from the surrounding area. This doesn’t sound like people on the run. Again you mix your history up, the Romans were chased out of Europe in the fifth century. The reason for Hadrian’s wall was consolidation and wasn’t the only barrier the Romans used around their empire. In areas they were being stretched and attacked by tribes, so Hadrian marked out areas to be barriers. The wall was built about fifty years after the battle and it took centuries to overwhelm. By which time the Romans were a spent force. I always think it is strange that tribe which fought with the Romans and were also apart of the make up of those tribes chasing the Romans departure to the south coast of England. This tribe were a part of the make up of the Vikings too. I’ll give you a clue without naming them, they were Sarmatians knights and were the first to wear shining armour in Europe.
BTW read for more on the Romans by tacitus http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/fartherlands/harbour.html
59

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 04:31:24
58, DeanConinPeteFSteed,

For a more comprehensive view you can read this.

http://www.albawest.com/mons_graupius.html

http://www.albawest.com/IX-legion.html
60

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 04:48:37
Cntd.

http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.org/Celtic_Solidarity/cs_intro.htm

61

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 04:59:38
58, DeanConinPeteFSteed,.

You were saying?
62

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 07:35:48
Fitba Krazy
#59 & #60 & #61
The word pict wasn’t used in reference to Scotland until the third century. This straight away makes the sites you set down as suspect. I openly laughed when the site used a reference to battle methods centuries later as their basis for how the “picts” fought (should of read Caledonians) at mons graupius. As these dubious sites often do they use Tacitus when it suits them and ridicules his work when it doesn’t. They then with one foot in the world of fiction rework how they would like history to be seen. This method of history was ridiculed for what it is when the nazi Germans tried to use it.
63

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/11/2009 09:34:03
#62 Argumentus ad Nazium does you no credit. Also, you said earlier on that Mons Graupus was probably a trap of some kind... err, no. All of the decent work on that battle leads to suggest that it was an agreed meeting place where contingents from several different tribes were gathering in advance of military action - probably an attack on a couple of forts. It wasn't a chosen battlefield by any stretch of the imagination. The Romans brought battle upon them, before the gathering was complete.
64

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 11:30:30
62, DeanConinPeteFSteed,

I didn't say the Romans were chased out of Europe simultaneously. You are merely assuming I meant that in an attempt to distort what I actually said.

It is a fact that our real history has been patronised, downplayed and obscured quite deliberately as part of the attempt to subjugate us to the imposters' will.

You are falling into this trap by the looks of it.

The fact that Tacitus was a ROMAN historian and, as pointed out, the Romans didn't report the truth fully when they suffered losses. The scrutiny of Tacitus's reports have apparently thrown up some anomalies that have shown them to be biased towards the Romans as one would expect. However he was not the only Roman historian.

You haven't explained why they spent so much effort building not one but two walls in an ultimately vain attempt at controlling the 'Picts' and also it is not wrong to refer to them as Picts in retrospect just as it is not wrong to refer to Scotland in retrospect as that is what we know them as now and it is the people of the same place we are talking about regardless of what the place or people were called then. Of course Scotland and England did not exist as titles when Hadrian's wall was built, but it was built in what is now Northern England and was the border of the Roman Empire on this island. Regardless of the different names applied to the island it is still the same island we are talking about just as it was the same people whether you call them Picts, Scots, Caledonians, Albions, The Pretani etc.

Why the big wall(s) if it would have been easy? Why the failure of their several attempts to take over 'Scotland'?

After all, they had long enough to do so and would have done if only they could. However, they were prevented from doing so by the combined forces of the people of what are now Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and many from England including the Saxons and in fact all resisted them until they were finally repelled altogether rom the wh
65

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 11:34:39

from the whole island.
66

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/11/2009 11:43:07
Tacitus is directly contradicted on several Scottish matters by pysical (archaeological) evidence. Several of the forts that it's claimed Agricola had built were actually built by one of his predecessors, for example. He cannot be trusted as a sole source of information on any subject. He's best used when cross referenced with, for example, Cassius Dio.

Excellent page about Agricola in Scotland - based on an analysis of actual evidence, and compared with Tacitus -> http://www.theromangaskproject.org.uk/Pages/Introduction/Agricola-hecame.html
67

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 12:14:49
Lianachan
#63 I said “Mons Graupius was likely a trap of sorts”, it being an agreed meeting place doesn’t mean the Caledonians didn’t have the heads up on the surrounding area and wouldn’t use the knowledge to their advantage, hence trap of sorts and not probably. Unless the battle was accidental the likelihood the battlefield wasn’t chosen by anyone is almost impossible and this could be me over stating the possibility.
68

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/11/2009 12:45:28
#67 The Caledonians were jumped by the Romans, while they were still gathering forces. Their commanders would not have been stupid enough to have formed for battle in such a suicidal location. You should maybe look out Fraser's book on the subject, although for the love of god please ignore all of the pointless extrapolation of the character of Calgacus!
69

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 12:58:03
Fitba Krazy
#64
What you had said was distorted before I got to it, it didn’t need me to add to it. You did in fact make out the Romans were chased out of Europe simultaneously, as this quote from your own comments clearly show, “More pressing engagement my bahooky, they got chased oot o the whole o Europe”
You make me laugh with your “It is a fact that our real history has been patronised, downplayed and obscured quite deliberately as part of the attempt to subjugate us to the imposters' will”, you’re making out you know, enough said.
I’m under no illusions as to what Tacitus says, I am also under no illusions to there being no evidence put forward from contemporary historians from what we now know as Scotland. Saint Paul did the same in his interpretations of the books we find in the Bible, note nothing was done wrong by the Romans. Saying there was more than one Roman historian is one thing it is another thing however coming up with their work on Mons Graupius.
You can get away with calling what we know as Scotland Scotland, though this can’t be said about the picts. The picts were tribes coming together in a union to make one tribe. There also is no evidence of anyone calling the people painted at the time ( painted almost certainly meant tattooed)
Easy is a reference to just after the battle barriers being placed at different places around the Roman Empire came half a century after. There were no serious attempt to take over Scotland after the battle and especially after the consolidation of the Roman Empire. The Romans lost interest of Scotland and many other places they saw outside of the Roman Empire. Try to find places they tried to take over after they consolidated the Empire.
70

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 13:03:17
Lianachan
#68
At this time I should point out Culloden a suicidal venue for the highland charge and the formation the jacobite were used to. By these standards Mons Graupius was easy going.
71

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 13:09:34
Lianachan
#66
Tacitus like the other Roman historians of note wrote their histories usually second hand and wrote what others told them. Cassius Dio was writing two centuries after Tacitus.
72

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/11/2009 13:21:21
Tacitus wasn't interested in telling the history of the Romans in Scotland, he was writing a hagiography of Agricola. He is contradicted by archaeological evidence on many matters.

In #69 you said there were no more attempts to conquer Scotland after Mons Graupus. That's simply not true. There was Serverus, in AD210ish for a start, and several forts in central Scotland were rebuilt sometimes as many as six times over the years.
73

Fitba Krazy,

05/11/2009 13:22:43
66 Lianachan,

Thanks for the link.
74

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

05/11/2009 17:53:40
Lianachan
#72
Tacitus usually wrote his work based on second hand information and had a habit of being non specific of location within the parameters of the land written about. On that score archaeological evidence is going to be hard to locate at the best of times.
Technically you still don’t have the cigar on Severus’ invasion, good try though. He did conquer the Caledonii because they sued for peace with the Romans, after the Romans had the run of the land. Where you lose is because Severus didn’t intend to conquer the land but seek revenge on the Caledonii. The forts aren’t too difficult to explain either, the Romans built forts on hostile lands away from their main forces. This can allow signalling of possible trouble before it happens too close to their main areas.
75

Fitba Krazy,

06/11/2009 01:33:13
74, DeanConinPeteFSteed,

Actually it was Severus who sought the truce.

You were already given the link but it appears you have ignored it. No surprise there of course.

"Severus called for a truce in order to agree a treaty and on the way to the meeting, as the Pict army watched his approach his own son tried to kill him in full view of the Caledonians. Deo Cassius notes of this event that, 'the enemy's force were likewise spectators'. The Romans made a treaty with the Picts who agreed to allow some forts and occupation troops to stay in central Caledonia. This treaty is often said to show only that the Caledonians ceded territory to Rome, but by implication it means that the Emperor himself, in return for this limited concession of the smaller part of the country - agreed to give up Rome's ambitions for all the rest of Caledonia. It seems it was a Pict war strategy to make a temporary treaty with a butcher like Severus - at least until they got the next harvest in.

According to the Romans the truce was broken a year or two later, so Severus prepared once again to personally lead the invasion of Caledonia. Deo Cassius recorded Severus' raging orders, 'Let no one escape sheer destruction . . not even the babe in the womb of the mother, if it be male; let it nevertheless not escape sheer destruction'. His bloody plans never reached fruition; the butcher died at Eboracum ( York ) in modern England on 4 February 211 AD. The Roman historian Spartianus, writes of Severus' son Antoninus who succeeded him that, 'With the enemy ( Picts ) he came to terms, withdrew from their territory, and abandoned the forts.'

What terms ? The Romans withdrew - end of story. Unless the terms were, 'Don't attack Hadrian's Wall' ! 'Oh no, said the Picts, we would never do that'. Scottish Midges-12 The Romans retreated from Caledonia - never to return ! The Picts had won the 130 year war of Caledonia - it was then that the war against Roman occupation of the southern British prov
76

Fitba Krazy,

06/11/2009 01:34:45
it was then that the war against Roman occupation of the southern British provinces began."

http://www.albawest.com/IX-legion.html
77

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

09/11/2009 00:36:27
Fitba Krazy
#75
Again you are wrong, when entering the lands the Caledonii sued for peace but it was turned down. No truce was sought from that time onwards. Again Cassius was a couple of centuries later than Tacitus and this is the reason he calls the Caledonii the picts. Again I say the Romans were not there for anything other than retribution and so can’t be classed as an intention to conquer the land.

 

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