Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Darling: I want answers over energy price hikes

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 07 January 2008
ALISTAIR Darling has summoned energy regulators into a Whitehall meeting to discuss the cost of power after one of the UK's biggest energy suppliers announced double-digit price increases.
The Chancellor has written to Sir John Mogg, who chairs the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority, and Alistair Buchanan, the chief executive of the industry regulator Ofgem, to ask them to investigate the impact of recent wholesale gas and oil price rises on the wider UK energy market.

Mr Darling's intervention, seen at Westminster as a thinly- veiled warning to energy companies over pricing, came after Npower announced rises of 17.2 per cent for gas and 12.7 per cent for electricity in a move that will hit more than four million UK households. It will see an average annual bill with the company jump by £95 for gas and £64 for electricity, meaning that homes that use the company for both will see their average dual bills rise above £1,000.

Experts predict that other energy suppliers will soon follow with price rises of their own.

Npower is also introducing regional pricing for gas for the first time. London and the East Midlands will be hit hardest, with some customers suffering a 23.8 per cent rise.

Scotland and Wales are expected to face a more modest rise of 8.7 per cent.

Most power companies are following ScottishPower and Scottish & Southern in introducing regional gas prices, in part to reflect transportation costs. Electricity pricing already varies between regions.

Consumer groups have criticised Npower, Britain's fourth- largest supplier, and other energy groups, for the rises.

They say that power companies are keen to pass on increases in wholesale prices as soon as they happen, but dislike reducing them when costs fall.

The price comparison website Uswitch.com said that last week's price increases wiped out decreases made by Npower last year, which lasted just eight months in the summer.

Mr Darling is understood to be concerned that power companies often buy bulk supplies nine months in advance and wonders why a sudden short-term increase at the wholesale level should lead to families having to pay more.

Energyhelpline.com, which also offers a price-comparison service, forecast that the UK's other five main suppliers would increase prices by 15 per cent in the next two months.

Its chief executive, Paul Green, said: "Market conditions are similar to those in 2006, when we saw multiple price rises.

"This year, we can expect customers to see between two and three price rises due to volatility on the wholesale market."

Andrew Horstead, head of energy research at the consultancy group Utilyx, said Npower was using record oil prices of more than $100 a barrel and rises in the cost of gas as a "smokescreen" to restore profit margins.

In his letter to Sir John and Mr Buchanan, Mr Darling said:

"I would be particularly interested in your views on the relationship between wholesale price movements and feed-through to domestic retail prices and the likely availability of gas supplies from the Continent for the remainder of the winter in 2008."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 January 2008 11:58 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

07/01/2008 00:52:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

,

07/01/2008 00:55:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
3

,

07/01/2008 01:08:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

,

07/01/2008 01:09:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

AJ o' Fife,

07/01/2008 01:10:10
Interestingly the correct spelling of t*ts is banned but poof isn't!

6

AJ o' Fife,

07/01/2008 01:11:15
Hoo aboot baws?
7

AJ o' Fife,

07/01/2008 01:12:08
That was fine too!

OK, lets try anither wan - erse!
8

AJ o' Fife,

07/01/2008 01:12:53
Great - loop holes everywhere!!!

Oops, I wonder if holes is ok?
9

,

07/01/2008 01:13:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

John Blackley,

Austin, TX 07/01/2008 01:21:46
"The Chancellor has written to Sir John Mogg........... Alistair Buchanan"

Why? These two men are, nominally, chiefs of their energy regulatory bodies. Part - a big part - of their duties is to watch over prices. So, with energy companies introducing double-digit price rises why is it up to the Chancellor to 'raise the red flag'?

Who will step forward to save the poor, suffering British public from such ineptitude and venality?
11

Eric D,

Renfrewshire 07/01/2008 03:06:16
There's a serious risk of inflation getting out of control, as the MPC start chopping interest rates to ward off the very real possibility of a house price crash and recession. Small changes in energy prices add significantly to an already inflationary economy, hence the chancellors intervention ( and not for the first time).However ,it makes a mockery of MPC whose main remit is to control inflation within a 2% +/- 1, and which is already over 2%. The so-called independent MPC should be raising interest rates , but the political imperative is further interest rate cuts
probably another cut next week.
12

Jimmy the Pie,

07/01/2008 06:06:15
#5 Witless


Are you a closet commie or just an idiot?
13

Pilrig,

Livingston 07/01/2008 06:23:08
1- Gibraltar has HALF the petrol prices the UK has and they use the same money as us !
The real culprit is the guy in the photo and his boss next door.
14

Pilrig,

Livingston 07/01/2008 06:24:42
5 - Darling a commie ? He's as much a commie as his thatcherite next door neighbour
15

McNasty,

Edinburgh 07/01/2008 07:22:33
Darling wants answers?

Try greedy taxes by GB, MP and now PM of GB. Going into a petrol station today is enough to make you weep.

The energy companies need to be properly regulated, but then perhaps they act as a convenient distraction from his activities?
16

yockel,

GSSB 07/01/2008 07:35:55
Wants answers? Well easier than promising to do something. Why wait until the announcement before demanding answers, oh ya mean he didn't know it was comming, pull the other one!
17

conservative,

07/01/2008 07:45:31
Why all the moaning? Energy is costing more worldwide, we are a wealthy country, is there some reason we should pay little for the energy we guzzle? What do the adverts say? A 1% cut in temperature can decrease your heating costs by 10% but how many do it? Noone that I know.
18

El Sabio,

South Africa 07/01/2008 08:03:18
The fat cats are getting fatter. Is it not written in the scriptures that "Unto them that have more shall be given"?

The greed of the haves will destroy us all except those who can afford to emigrate to another world.

The Spaniards have a nice saying: "A cada puerco llega su San Martin"

In other words the day of reckoning comes to everyone
19

Drum Major,

Brisbane, Australia 07/01/2008 08:05:04
What you pay in pounds for fuel we pay in Aust Dollars. 44 pence buys an Aust Dollar. We are complaining because the US pays 1/3 of that. Taxes are the the main culprit followed by greedy oil companies. Govts won't fix the oil companies because they would have to fix their own greed.
20

Tracy C,

Aberdeen 07/01/2008 08:05:31
This should have been happening years ago not after the horse has bolted so to speak!
21

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 07/01/2008 08:12:48
Free enterprise and the interests of shareholders is the name of the game.
22

yockel,

GSSB 07/01/2008 08:12:57
Are we in danger of missing the point here?

"I would be particularly interested in your views on the .... likely availability of gas supplies from the Continent for the remainder of the winter in 2008."

Nicely slipped in Darling
23

JayJay,

Right here 07/01/2008 08:17:40
The biggest laugh comes when the oil, gas and generating companies post record profits (again) then claim that petrol prices/residential electricity supply doesn't make them any money....in fact, these markets run at a loss!
Just you wait. We'll be reading that as some twerp in the paper writes about their profits per minute!
24

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 07/01/2008 08:18:16
A windfall tax on the profits of domestic energy suppliers would be good in the Budget
25

yockel,

GSSB 07/01/2008 08:18:21
#18 conservative

It was 5.2C in my bedroom all last week are you really promising to save the planet and reduce my bills by 10% if I reduce that to 5.148C ?

Forgive me guzzling.
26

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 07/01/2008 08:27:53
#26 Richard M
As many of the companies are no longer UK owned do we really have any true picture of their profits in this country ?
27

tomfrom66,

Thornton Cleveleys 07/01/2008 08:29:50
Sub-text: "I've got to be seen to be doing something even though there's **** all I can do about it!"
28

WMSART,

MUSSELBURGH 07/01/2008 08:52:18
TAX THEM
29

thinking,

Scotland 07/01/2008 08:59:19
It would be interesting to know if other countries in the EU are be charged at such a high rate. I understood that the tax on domestic fuel is a 'directive' from the EU. That means that charges should be roughly the same. I bet they are not.
If we are paying more then we should challenge on our 'human rights' another directive from the EU !!!!!
30

Boy Wonder,

07/01/2008 09:19:13
Any chance of real fires with back boilers to heat the water coming back into vogue? Out here in the sticks, just outside Edinburgh, we collect fallen wood and burn that. Also have a wee generator that does just fine producing all our electrical needs.

To hell with the energy companies ... refuse to pay and see what happens!

31

Homo Sapiens,

07/01/2008 09:23:10
The Ultimate Hypocrit! The high energy costs are the direct result of the high taxes on energy, and the VAT that the government collects and uses to buy votes with their announcements of silly statist initiatives, pushing inflation up, while at the same time reducing productivity, industrial/real-economy output, and the export potential of this economy by keeping a relatively high Pound exchange rates(to other currencies). The energy companies are faced with steep increases for oil and gas, the result of a badly mismanaged economy in the UK and the US over the past 10-15 years. We are now paying the price of the folly of 11 years of Labour Tax and spend... This Darling Clown is trying to deflect the flak and truth. Throw the rascals out!
32

JimC,

Kilmarnock 07/01/2008 09:33:23
So Darling, when are you going to increase Jobseekers allowance to help the unemployed keep warm this winter? Opps, sorry forgot they are all scroungers who do not really want to work, none have small children and they get what they deserve anyway - forget I asked.
33

Katty,

Bannockburn 07/01/2008 09:53:53


Yes DARLING But!! what are you going to do about it you fart of gas!!!!
34

Maurice,

Fife 07/01/2008 10:43:23
Over the last 3 years or so I have lived in the UK, I have come to the conclusion that long standing capitalism creates dishonesty and greed. i have never seen so many rip-off artists and by far the worst of these is the taxman. A perfect example of this is a bottle of Whisky. A good bottle at that. Glenfiddich 50 year old will cost £464 LESS in South Africa after all the middle men, transporters and retailers have added their cut, than it will directly from Glenfiddich. Why?? tax! To say that the landed cost of fuel in the UK is less than in Africa is utter rubbish. The cost is tax! Fair enough there are many benifits available to the sick, lame and lazy but this should be covered by the taxpayer who is being screwed from every angle. Then what does the government do?? Sends boys off to invade other countries and make enemies and subject the nation to terrorism and scorn from the real world.
35

Jimmy the Pie,

07/01/2008 11:00:38
There should be an appeal to shop Wendy. Someone must know where she and her criminal cohorts are holed up?? She might have fled the country and I have heard rumours that she is holed up at a hoose in Downing Street, London. What about an early morning raid there?
36

Redfive,

Dont expect any action by Treasure Islands Governm 07/01/2008 11:14:47
Nu_labour is incapable of realing in the large energy giants and their multibillion pounds of profit every year, the large energy giants know full well they can charge what they want and the government will do absolutely nothing as they are firmly in their pockets with their highly funded lobbyists and many MPs with directorship and consulant jobs and hidden business intrests in this sector.
The UK is known as Treasure Island to large often foreign owned multinationals as they can overcharge what they like provide a poor service and rake in the billions with impunity yet another Nu-Labour disgrace and sell out of the public by this inept and corrupt government.
37

Neil,

Glasgow 07/01/2008 11:21:25
The answer, as Mr Darling knows perfectly well, is that Britain's political class, of which he is part, have spent decades preventing the building of new nuclear plants which can & in France do produce electricity at under half the price our generators do.

What he is trying to do is not to find out but to unload the responsibility for power shortages on those he specificly prevented from solving the problem years ago. Expect to see a lot more of that from the eco-fascists.
38

Rob,

Moray 07/01/2008 11:40:12
Darling must be exceptionally dim. I can only imagine that the recipient of the letter will spend at least a day laughing his head off and then another day crying his eyes out.

The taxation on every form in energy has been a disaster for this country and cannot be sustained in the wake of the energy producers hiking it as it gets shorter because of its finite nature. These producers cannot believe their luck when it comes to global warming and the looney lobby that accompanies it, it's just the greatest news they've ever known. Now they will buy up half of the global companies on the proceeds.

We've even been beaten by the French who have their nuclear power in place. We will still be debating it when the lights go out. When are we going to wake up - when we have 30 million freezing pensioners who can't afford the power even if we had it?
39

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 11:40:14
Neil

nuclear is unreliable (torness and hunterstons down time over the past 12 months has been significant) and very expensive (the most heavily subsisdised power generation in the UK through waste management, current decommisioning and previous bale outs to prevent the industry going belly up after the withdrawal of its gauranteed market and gauranteed prices), only the die hard apologists for the nuclear industry continue to pander to the great myth that nuclear will offer affordable power. It's not eco-fascism to dismiss an economically unviable option.
40

Number 6,

Germany 07/01/2008 11:45:37
If he receives no satisfactory answers will he legislate against price hikes of this nature, or like
the rest of Labour, is he nothing but hand-wringing hot air?
When he is finished with the power regulators how about demanding some answers from Maggie Brown as to why energy tax is so remarkably high. FARCICAL.
41

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

07/01/2008 11:57:50
6....Awrite AJ lad that you gittin yersell banned again....here mibbe there's profit tae be made in babies shoitty nappys?...think o' the profits there...after the nappy's full..roll it up intae a wee baw...dry it oot fir a couple o' days an the jobs a good un....might hiv tae feed the waen grass an hay tho' fir a bit...jist tae git it startit...pop it in a stove or fireplace...kick back (wae a peg ower yer hooter)and toast yer tootsies....

Congratulations faither ye never said whit 'e weighed...by the way....

42

AlecJ,

Aberdeen 07/01/2008 12:10:50
I'm waiting for the day petrol stations mark their prices (but not holding my breath) with the basic cost of the fuel they sell with the additional mark "plus VAT and Duty". After all, most wholesale places mark their stock this way, and you have to mentally add VAT at 17-1/2 % extra to get the price you have to pay. It would be a real shocker to the public to SEE the amount extracted by HM Govt and how little goes to the fuel suppliers. It would be less dishonest than the current system of just marking the pump prices. It would also scare G. Brown and A. Darling when their greed becomes apparent.
43

Rob,

Moray 07/01/2008 12:12:37
Saoghal Beag.

OK Brainbox - tell me where the power's going to come from? If you think putting thousands upon thousands of windmills on the top of our hills is the answer you need to do some reality testing. Sure the old reactors are exactly that - old and past their sell by date. No-one disputes that. There aren't many model T Ford's on the roads either.

No need to apologise for something that the world will one day realise is essential for its survival. Before WWII, electrical engineers wondered where future power would come from - then we discovered nuclear, admittedly in the most dreadful way. It is not beyond the wit of man for another new way of mass power generation to be discovered, but until that happens we cannot survive without nuclear.
44

,

07/01/2008 12:19:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

David B. Wildgoose,

England 07/01/2008 12:20:07
From the article: "introducing regional gas prices, in part to reflect transportation costs."

Rubbish! In that case, why do remote and distant Scottish settlements get an 8.7% rise whilst the densely populated London and the East Midlands of England face 23.8%?

There's a lot more consumers per mile of gas pipeline down here, so the costs should be LOWER not HIGHER.

Why am I not surprised that English consumers are getting ripped off whilst Scottish and Welsh customers get lower price rises?
46

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 12:28:50
Rob, we are faced by some very difficult questions regarding our power needs.

I don't think putting htousands of windlmills across our countryside is the answer. The answer comes from integrated and diversified generation. That means a variety of central generation options along with renewables, particularly embedded generation within the built environment since that adresses 30% distribution losses.

If nuclear was reliable, if there was a reasonable option for waste disposal, if the generation was actually affordable then it might be a reasonable option.

With Torness being down i didn't notice any lights going out, did you? Saying we can not survive without nuclear is just a falacy.

In conjunction with new generation we must be looking at our demand and reducing it as far as is reaonably possible. That means stop building leaky houses with inadequate insulation, that means stop building offices and other buiildings that waste energy through their design, that means taking the planners aside and telling them that southern orientation takes priority over their personal sense of aesthetics. This means business and homes operating in more energy efficient ways.
47

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek AUSTRALIA 07/01/2008 12:40:50
ITA A BIG WIDE WONDERFUL WORLD WE LIVE IN DA DA DA DA
I cant remember who wrote that song, ENERGY, ENERGY, ENERGY, what a sad state of affairs, here in the state of Victoria where I live the production and supply of electricity was State owned and employed 27,000 people, it was then known as the SEC of V and although the Government had borrowed a small? fortune against it the SEC was still making over 200 million dollars per year profit.
THEN came the BIG sell off and now the generating plants are owned by a British company; the 500,000 volt transmission lines are owned by Singapore who in turn sell electricity to numerous overseas owned companies who then sell it to the consumers.as brown coal is used to run the generators we are in the super polluter catergory. Now enters Carbon emission, and the Federal Govt asked all Aussies to reduce their usage by 10/15% to help with the carbon problem, now as we all know , if you are a private company selling a product, the more you sell, the more profit the share holders make so to compensate, the price of electricity is to rise 20%, the Govt tells us that this is to go towards Australia reaching the Kyoto reduction goals, the big joke of all is that almost all of the companies involved are trying to bail out.
NOW, to petrol and diesel and auto gas, here the price of diesel is higher than 98 octane unleaded petrol, we like to be different to the rest of the World and as for the pricing system the oil companies use, I don't think Albert Einstien could make sense of it, it can change three times in a day, it can vary from suburb to suburb, it always hits the high spot before a holiday weekend and the Government who make the most money in taxes tell us that they are keeping a close watch on these profiteers, they have even appointed a WATCHDOG to keep an eye on them, he works for the government but is independant, (strange situation that)
My advice to all is to "take it on the chest" but be careful you dont fall off you bic
48

Jimmy the Pie,

07/01/2008 12:42:56
#48 Witless.

Have you tried the NHS 24 helpline?? They can do wonders to help people like yourself, and without the need for shock therapy!! Give it try, we won't regret it!
49

Rabhairt,

Cannons Creek AUSTRALIA 07/01/2008 12:44:26
RE 51 My advice is to "take it on the chest" but don't fall off your bicycle in the dark when it hits you.
50

Neil,

Glasgow 07/01/2008 12:56:13
We have discussed this before & Soghal knows perfectly well that France is producing 80% of its power (plus a lot that it profitably sells abroad) from nuclear at half the cost of our generation.

The complete contempt the eco-fascists have for the truth is shown by his willingness to deny these easily vertfyable facts.
51

Gothic Rose,

07/01/2008 13:00:33
Oh Mr Darling,
You have put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!
52

Rob,

Moray 07/01/2008 13:07:48
Saoghal Beag #50. I don't disagree with most of what you've written. The Torness closure, as with any other facility closure, doesn't cause power outages because of the grid - they just get it from somewehere else (including the nuclear stuff from France)

I agree that huge efficiency measures are required but they are on an even longer delivery schedule than building nuclear, wind farms, carbon capture etc unless you want more and even more drastic shock therapy (ie taxes) Economics have to prevail and the lowest cost production, flaws and all, is nuclear - more so if you examine the likely inflation on fossil fuel generation, life span on turbines etc going forward. There simply isn't a sustainable policy that excludes nuclear - and everyone knows it. Personally, I'm not interested in living in the stone age and nor are my children - that means c40% nuclear at its peak then falling away gradually as efficiency measures bite. However, that's a long time off - look at the global population forecasts and you will realise that none of the measures we speak of today will do no more than tread water if we're lucky, - and we will need to be!
53

Paula,

07/01/2008 13:11:14
He may want answers but he'll do nothing with them. Time to start economising folks because this year is going to be a lot tougher on all of us. Except for the very rich that is, they always get richer, no matter what - especially during this Labour government which should shame them all.

My children aren't babies anymore (though are still very young) but if they were or if I were an older person I would be worried. Bills are going up in all aspects and the squeeze is getting to the point where people can't afford to heat their own homes.

So many people are reliant on the government telling them every single thing rather than relying on sourcing out information for themselves that if the government don't tell them how to save money by being efficient with their energy use then they just won't do anything. Except for moan.
54

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 13:35:28
Rob, i think that we both are looking at the same long time goal. I think we can get there wihtou resorting to building new nuclear. clean burn coal may not be that clean but i think if that is used as a stop gap in the middle term we should get there.

I think that we do have to revise the building regualtions and insist on not level 5/6 Guide for sustainable homes which forces organisation to plaster homes with ineffectual technology, but passiv hus or equivalent. Though there is much noise made about flights, approx 3% of our carbon, houses account for 30% and therefore more effort should be made in that direction.

Neil, I don't quite follow the argument that nuclear works in the french economy because we are not living in the french economy. In the UK economy nuclear remains expensive and unreliable, these are just statements of the truth as you well know. To suggest otherwise is delusional and arrogant.

Your solution is nuclear and nothing. While Rob and i may disagree on details we both recognise that diversity in generation is essential.
55

Gothic Rose,

07/01/2008 14:09:59
34#Boy Wonder.
Try rubbing the sticks together.You`l save on matches!
56

Black Five,

edinburgh 07/01/2008 14:20:13
Renatinalise the beggars.
57

,

07/01/2008 14:39:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

Neil,

Glasgow 07/01/2008 14:51:24
Soghal said
"I don't quite follow the argument that nuclear works in the french economy"

The laws of physics are the same both sides of the Channel. Therfore if if it has been done by France it can be done by Britain.

I don't doubt the ability of Green lobbyists here to demand a regulatory system that would make it more expensive any more than I don't doubt that, if regulations required pigs to have wings surgicaly applied bacon would cost more - however there can be no honest denial that it is perfectly possible to do what has already been done.
59

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 15:05:31
Neil the reason that the French generation portfolio does seem to work is that it is state owned and run, the subsidies are even greater than those in the UK and the market guarantees stronger, yet still EDF was criticized by French Court of Accounts, which oversees the finances of public bodies and state-owned enterprises, in January 2005 because the debt-laden company had only what it termed an "embryo" of the
money needed for decommissioning and waste management after the closure of its nuclear
facilities.

There is one nuclear plant i know which was built within a free market and that is Finland's newest plant. That was heavily subsidised with part ownership through local and national government, low intrest rate loans and market gaurantees, yet still areva will struggle to clear a profit. Then again areva has only made provision for circa 50% of current claen up liabilities.

Economic reality says that the engineering dream of free nuclear power is more pie in the sky than Dorothy and her red shoes.

That isn't eco-fascism, just commonsense.

That isn't arrognat, just statements of truth.
60

Rob,

Moray 07/01/2008 15:06:27
Soghal

I think Neil's points are on the money. The difference between French Nuclear and UK Nuclear is that the French invested in their systems, technology and maintenance and continiue to do so: they have a very modern fleet of generators. In contrast we shovelled ours off to the plc world so that the city made a killing at the expense of re-investment and maintenance. After all, who is going to invest in nuclear when we're still debating whether it's a good idea - a debate that's over 20 years old. It would have been kinder to the taxpayer to have kept them - and it's not often you can say that.

If it's that important, and it is, you can throw money at it and get the result. The Americans put a man on the moon in less than 6 years from an executive order to do so - getting an energy policy working within twenty years should be quite easy even for us!

61

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 15:11:23
A copy and paste job but.....economist Gilbert Metcalf concludes that the total cost of juice from a new nuclear plant today is 4.31 cents per kilowatt-hour. That's far more than electricity from a conventional coal-fired plant (3.53 cents) or "clean coal" plant (3.55 cents). When he takes away everyone's tax subsidies, however, Metcalf finds that nuclear power is even less competitive (5.94 cents per kwh versus 3.79 cents and 4.37 cents, respectively).


I don't question that there is any variance in physics in the UK from France. That is absolute nonsense.

The question is "is nuclear the afforadable answer". The answer is an emphatic no.
62

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 15:18:25
Aye Rob, but the French have stuck with one model and honed it. That means they have common safety procedures and if one problem is solved in one plant it is solved in all of them. That does not exist in the UK and in the free market it is not encouraged. I agree that these plants should never have been sold and as a result they have costs us all dearly. We do not have the French economy, or state owned generation, nor are we likely to get the market restructred as such. therefore we have to look at the best options within our economy.

based on purely private finance with no hidden subsidies there will be no nuclear plants built in the UK, unless neil has enough pennies? so the discussion is probably alll academic.
63

Jock ex 45Cdo RM 2,

Thornhill 07/01/2008 15:27:32
I am a minority oil dependent user. We have no gas to use or can we enjoy the offers to have a combined gas/electricity cheap rate.
Think yourself lucky to have all the back up by fuelwatch, overcharge watch, Darling watch and not forgetting the Glebe St family
The Exchequer is on the 'pigs back' with over infaltion rises in fuel duties as these are a function of big fat oil cats./
64

Jock ex 45Cdo RM 2,

Thornhill 07/01/2008 15:34:21
How to reduce your fuel bills!!
Successive economists/fuel user experts have over the last 30 years have repeatedly advised us to reduce our thermostat by 1 degree C and diligently I have followed. This winter I had my thermostat changed to a frost stat to allow me to continue with this sound advice.
65

Neil,

Glasgow 07/01/2008 16:12:59
Soagal's idea that the French nuclear isn't the price of ours because they are actually secretly subsidising their generators with spare billions is inherently unproveable.

However it would mean that they are thus secretly subsidising the electricity they export to Germany, Italy, Spain, Britain & Belgium.

Anybody who believes that.....
66

Rob,

Moray 07/01/2008 16:47:54
Neil/ Saogal

I'm very pleased we don't have a French economy!! Anyone who believes they are not subsidising nuclear are the ones that need their heads examining - since when have the French let the EU get in the way of something they want? Try buying a power station over there for starters and you'll see the good old EU rules flying out the window.

I'm not going to argue on the pricing as the number's used are never current - as evidenced by last weeks pricing round - and frankly I don't know and I'm not particularly interested. If we don't care about the environment then keep on burning - the cost of the clean stuff maybe greater (I actually don't think it is, but hey, who knows or cares?) - but then if it gives us what we apparently want - ie planet saved, lots of green loonies, victory for Al Gore and more taxes - then you need nuclear.


67

E.A. Swimmer,

07/01/2008 17:36:01
Darling dear has asked for answers, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he will get them. However, they will bear little resemblance to the truth. Spin is not confined to Government.

I cannot help being very wary of nuclear power, and just as wary of experts claiming to have all manner of failsafe systems in place, until something breaks adrift, and they haven't a clue how to address the problem in the very limited time available.

The answer, and how wish I knew how right now, to producing electricity in the future surely rests with wave and tide gadgets, in conjunction with other clean sources, such as wind turbines.

In the meantime, in order to reduce my carbon footprint and to power this little machine, I have the other half tied to a treadmill. I shall allow her a short rest in half an hour, or so.
68

nabodican,

Portree 07/01/2008 18:44:40
As most of our electricity comes from coal and nuclear generation with hydro in Scotland providing enough for all of the highlands needs, I don't see any reason for an increase in electricity prices.
It is bad enough that prices are going up because of subsidies to the wind industry due to the rocs system which is also responsible for the shut down of a significant quantity of hydro generating capacity in order to qualify for rocs.
It is high time that electricity generation and distribution was nationalised to bring back a bit of reality and stamp out profit motivated outfits such as wind power companies.
69

Toots - Sheila,

Canada 07/01/2008 19:23:24
I seem to recall from my physics lessons along time ago that energy is never "lost" (or used up) it just gets transferred into another form of energy.
The question for society is what are we transferring natural resources (energy) into and how can we use this resource better, The real issue here is probably the level of consumption and is it good for society and the planet! In other words is the best use of resources / energy to turn these into consumer goods.
More energy (or cheaper energy) of itself is not the answer. Why are we using x times more energy and is this necessary / desirable?
70

Saoghal Beag,

07/01/2008 19:26:08
Neil, anyone who believes that the French do not subsidise their endemic indutries can not possibly be from this planet, let alone continent.

You choose not to believe anything that goes against your personal agenda, and as you say the subsidies may be unproveable, but do not deny it as you know yourself the true cost of nuclear makes it one of the ost expensive options.
71

Flossie,

Moray 07/01/2008 20:07:42
#Col Blimp49* Don't look at me. I live in a small settlement with all my pigs and sheep inside the thatched roof igloo so the heating problem doesn't arise. Furthermore we do not intend re-surfacing until April. Why doesn't Mr. Wildgoose do as thousands of his compatriots are doing and come up beside us. Not only will he benefit from the "8.7%" he can also claim the extra benefits of living in a civilised part of the worldwhere the O.A.Ps are treated as human beings.
72

Flossie,

Lossie 07/01/2008 20:11:53
#Col Blimp49* Don't look at me. I live in a small settlement with all my pigs and sheep inside the thatched roof igloo so the heating problem doesn't arise. Furthermore we do not intend re-surfacing until April. Why doesn't Mr. Wildgoose do as thousands of his compatriots are doing and come up beside us. Not only will he benefit from the "8.7%" he can also claim the extra benefits of living in a civilised part of the worldwhere the O.A.Ps are treated as human beings.
73

Colin, Glasgow,

07/01/2008 20:18:07
For those who are decrying Neil's example of cheap French nuclear electricity, perhaps Sweden makes the point more transparently.

Sweden gets about half of its electricity from nuclear and half from hydro. The nuclear operators are required to pay 2.2 euro cents per kWh into a fund to cover the full cost of waste and decommissioning. Furthermore the govt imposes a windfall tax which is increasing to 0.67 eur cents per kWh in 2008. This pulls in 435 million euros per year for the govt - a free gift from the nuclear industry. Still the nuclear operators make a profit. And the retail price for electricity in Sweden is amongst the lowest in Europe. There isn't much doubt that nuclear power is cheap and can be profitable.

Furthermore, quarter of a century ago Sweden decided in a referendum that it would phase out its nuclear power stations which produced half its electricity at the time. Ever since they have been striving to find renewable alternatives. Sweden still gets half of its electricity from nuclear, having failed to develop large scale renewable alternatives. Note this is a govt that is seriously intent on producing renewable alternatives, and with fairly impeccable green credentials

And since it uses nuclear and hydro for its electricity, Sweden has amongst the lowest carbon emissions per capita in Europe. 40% lower than the UK despite using 60% more energy per capita.

Yes, diversity of energy supply is the way forward, but any sensible mix is going to include nuclear power in significant quantities.
74

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 07/01/2008 21:23:36

*8
There is no continuity about what is allowed to be printed on this website! I had the ignominity of a message having the same word as you, for backside, not being allowed. More double standards by the Scotsman, or perhaps it was because i asked the polititians to get off their fat ones, maybe too close to the truth for comfort?!
75

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 07/01/2008 21:48:41
*49
Since the gas is brought ashore in Scotland, why should Scots pay extra to supply england ( deliberate small "e") Its the Welsh folk I am sorry for, after all they ,like us Scots, are treated like dirt, by the english, & westminster alike
76

E.A. Swimmer,

07/01/2008 21:57:07
#83 - Type Bacton into Google, and please don't be such a parochial idiot.
77

Colin, Glasgow,

07/01/2008 21:59:59
Saoghal #67. Ok, it is true that nuclear has trouble competing against coal power on price in some situations. (Of course, so do other forms of generation.) However this is partly due to the fact that coal is effectively "subsidised" because it doesn't have to cover the full external cost of the damage caused by its pollution. The ExternE report by the European commission showed that the external cost of using coal for electricity (i.e. deaths from air pollution, health damage, environmental impact) effectively doubles the cost of dirty conventional coal. This extra cost is picked up by the state, paying for the NHS etc. Nuclear internalises almost all of its costs - it pays to manage all of its waste and causes negligible pollution. This is partly why coal makes sense to free marketeers, while nuclear makes sense to govts.

So called "clean coal" plants are somewhat better in terms of air pollution, but it does not deal with the issue of CO2 emissions to any great extent. A clean coal plant only reduces the emissions from about 900g down to about 700g per kWh. For real CO2 reductions it is necessary to sequester the CO2 using carbon capture, and this is likely to increase costs by 50%. And even with carbon capture coal will still produce 100g Co2 per kWh (compared with 5-20g per kWh from the nuclear lifecycle). Nuclear just about competes even without a price on carbon; but if there was a price on carbon emissions then nuclear is pretty unbeatable.
78

BK,

Cyberspace 07/01/2008 22:08:00
There is an answer , Alastair. YOUR government privatised electricity and failed to reverse the Tory's privatisation of gas - YOU sold the family silver to the thieves. -and in any privatisation it sis the mugs who vote for idiots like you who have to pay. You are a crook and a hypocrite - YOU are are the guilty one here. Don't blame others for your own crimes.
79

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 07/01/2008 22:29:35
*84
I wonder if you would have made the same statement to an englishman? you have not made any comment on the whinging of a typical englishman! And, I was also, in case you did not notice, in sympathy with that other much belittled NATION, Wales, who also got short changed by their neighbours! That explodes your parochial comment. I wonder if you can pronounce that word correctly, or do you say parockial, like most lazy english speakers do?
80

E.A. Swimmer,

07/01/2008 23:02:24
#87 - Here we go again. The same observation would have been made to anyone, totally regardless of nationality, or any other attribute. I rather fancy the Welsh can fight their own corner, should they feel the need. If we are still talking energy, you may find that there is a gas terminal at Milford Haven, albeit handling imported product.
81

Drum Major,

08/01/2008 02:45:57
With all the hot air this subject has generated you can beat any other form of generation.
82

Neil,

Glasgow 09/01/2008 13:02:00
Sogul I accept your claim that the French are, for no discernable reason apart from inherent friendliness, secretly subsidising German electricity prices represents the very highest stzandard of honesty & indeed sanity of which you are capable.

Nobody but a wholly corrupt & dishonest eco-fascist who knows nothing about France could ever believe this highest standard is in any way truthful.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.