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Golf resort is high risk to Trump, says expert

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Published Date: 12 June 2008
DONALD Trump's ambitious plan to transform an environmentally sensitive stretch of the Scottish coastline into a £1 billion golf resort would be a major risk for the tycoon's business empire, a leading financial expert told the Menie inquiry yesterday.
Iain Webster, a financial expert hired by the Trump Organisation to carry out a detailed review of the controversial project, revealed the firm would have to spend £600 million on the development over six years before receiving a single penny back i
n income.

He claimed that the massive resort scheme only stood to make a profit for the entrepreneur if the project included a development of 500 luxury homes.

Mr Webster also told the second day of the inquiry in Aberdeen that Mr Trump planned to invest a potential £12 million of his personal fortune in the project and that his organisation had already spent £1 million preparing for the inquiry.

The revelations came on the second day of the public local inquiry into the Menie estate development in Aberdeenshire.

Mr Webster, the head of corporate finance with Johnston Carmichael, one of Scotland's largest accounting firms, told the inquiry that he had analysed two separate scenarios. The first involved a development comprising the two golf courses, the construction of 36 golf villas, almost 1,000 timeshare holiday apartments and a five-star hotel with 450 bedrooms. The second included the construction of 500 privately owned homes, with price tags ranging from £250,000 to £1 million.

The inquiry was told that the potential cost of developing the main championship course at the Menie estate could be as much as £12 million.

Mr Webster revealed: "I am aware that what (Mr Trump] is planning to do is to fund the golf course development with his own money. That is the equity that is going into the business.

"Once that golf course is up and running, he will use the equity value to then borrow money to fund further stages of the development. He would gear up or borrow against the security of existing properties."

Borrowing would represent 90 per cent of the total funding of the project. Mr Webster said: "I regard it as a relatively high-risk project. This is one of the largest capital projects I have ever seen and, in any large-scale capital project, you have real risk in terms of your construction costs and potential over-run. There is a seven-year construction period; costs are likely to go up."

He explained that the cash "outflows" of the project would go on until 2014. "There are, in effect, six years of cash outflows, which aggregate to £500 million before the project generates its first year of cash inflow. That is risky. It is a big-risk project."

The cash outflow of £500 million excluded interest and tax likely to total £100 million. "The Trump Organisation will be paying out approximately £600 million at that point before they start to generate cash inflow from the operation," said Mr Webster.

He added: "I have concluded, based on the proposed outline planning applications, the project may only be attractive to investors if the element of residential development is undertaken as part of the overall development."

The inquiry continues.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 June 2008 9:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Donald Trump
 
1

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 00:10:24
"Iain Webster, a financial expert hired by the Trump Organisation to carry out a detailed review of the controversial project, revealed the firm would have to spend £600 million on the development over six years before receiving a single penny back in income."

Hardly a fast buck then.
2

Tart,

New Zealand 12/06/2008 00:22:08
I think it would be great for the Scottish economy and tourism Just remember the locals - cheap golf
3

Buttress,

12/06/2008 01:33:40
"I have concluded, based on the proposed outline planning applications, the project may only be attractive to investors if the element of residential development is undertaken as part of the overall development."

Well he would say that wouldn't he... this is a massive development with a golf course attached, as otherwise he wouldn't be able to get planning permission as it stands.

4

Mist001,

Marseille 12/06/2008 04:04:37
"Iain Webster, a financial expert hired by the Trump Organisation to carry out a detailed review of the controversial project, revealed the Scottish tax payer would have to spend £6 million on the Menie Inquiry over six months before eventually saying yes to the proposal."

Michael.
5

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 07:35:44
6 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation,

Wow, so whats wrong with building houses - surely thats within Local and Government policy?
If you want to complain about houses go down to Cove, Portlethen and Newtonhill and see how the moorland is being wrecked for dormitory style developments without even a peep from RSPB, Ramblers, retired town planners, professional objectors (Walton), tiny wee accordian players, Mickee Footee, Johnston, Ross, Ford and Storr?

Let's hear your true green credentials or is this more a case of the little green man called jealousy?
6

puskas,

East kilbride 12/06/2008 07:44:53
A golf course and 500 new houses would have been nice for Easterhouse... Pity. The Menie Estate ain't no St Tropez.
7

Mist001,

Marseille 12/06/2008 07:47:47
There's a thing. I wonder how many councillors Cala Homes/Stuart Milne have in their pocket?

Could all this be a case of jealousy because they've been trumped by Trump over the building of houses?

Michael.
8

puskas,

East kilbride 12/06/2008 07:54:18
Many bitter and intellectual challenged posters on this topic.

Reading to many comic stories. Dandy and Beano should be out and take the next step up to Roy of the Rovers before posting so much tripe on a serious subject.

Anyone who wishes to spend so much money in that area should be allowed to get on with it.

I certainly wouldn't have considered this site in my top 1,000,000 to finance a project as this one.
9

Buttress,

12/06/2008 08:00:02
500 homes - plus all the timeshare apartments and a hotel, all of no architectural merit - all to build a golf course? Still, it will give the locals jobs cleaning and bed changing. Sure they are lining up to do that.

Of course it's a scam! The eejit bought the land though without appreciating the planning problems (the SSSI for a start).
10

Beth Boyle,

NY 12/06/2008 08:29:28
Yes and if it all fails Scotland will be left holding the bag.
11

jmacamsterdammer,

Amsterdam 12/06/2008 09:17:40
The development can only really succeed if it is marketed (successfully) as a golf-destination, such as St Andrews, Gleneagles and Turnberry. I’m not that up on golf economics but the cheapest green fees for the (best) courses at these destinations is between 60 and 130 GBP. That is a lot of money and probably outstrips the ability of the local market to play regularly enough to sustain the course year-round (again, only a guess).

In terms of building 500 luxury homes/houses (there is a difference here), it would be interesting to see and hear about what scenarios have been planned for: what types of people/families could afford to buy the homes, where would they come from, what these people do for a living, can they live and work from this location, what additional transport links would have to be funded from the public purse (and how much “real money” is being contributed to the local economy)?

It’s an ambitious plan and in theory could potentially generate a lot of money but where is the real money actually being generated being banked? And what is really in it for Mr Trump?
12

Zambo,

12/06/2008 09:18:36
How do you invest 600 million, build 500 houses or 1000 holiday apartments, a 450 room 5 * hotel, and two golf courses, without using skilled labour, expert building and contract managers, logistics specialists, financial controllers, trucking firms, surveyors, drivers, machine operators, hundreds of sub-contactors and material suppliers, and the rest of the trained and experienced workforce it takes to mount a major project like this?

# 11 What are you on about?
13

brownlie,

12/06/2008 09:26:33
Can you give us a link to the architechural plans so we can judge the lack of merit?

Can you give us a link to the staffing levels that show they only need cleaners and bed-changers?

Strange to find a top-class hotel without chefs, managers, receptionists, electricians, plumbers etc etc etc.
14

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 09:44:24
Aah, the usual doomongers, naysayers & downright objectionable moaning about this yet again.

Before Trump came on the scene, NOBODY had heard of The Menie Est!!

What is so wrong about our part of the world looking at diversifying our economy post-oil? Surely tourism is an important part of the future?

Trump's course will underpin & contribute to that future - nobody is saying it will do that ON ITS OWN!!

Wildlife continue to exist on & around golf courses - FACT! Trees & plants continue to exist on & around golf courses - FACT!

If the people of the NE want this built, & the majority DO, because coming from the local area we can see the BIGGER picture, then why shouldn't everyone accept that?

Bizarre.
15

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 09:45:38
It's just as I said in the last story thread about this farce of a scheme: it's a pig in a poke that will be built on borrowed money. I quote ""Once that golf course is up and running, he will use the equity value to then borrow money to fund further stages of the development. He would gear up or borrow against the security of existing properties."

Borrowing in the current uncertain economic climate (along with collapsing house prices) is extremely expensive and makes the whole scheme highly speculative. More and more this is shown to be what it is: a simple scam to get a few quid out of the banks and then leave the bankrupted mess in Aberdeenshire if and when it all goes pear shaped.

Suddenly Trumpty's "I'm a big billionairre putting £1b into Scotland" turns out to be "actually I can just about scrape together one hundredth of that much money but I might be able to borrow the rest once we begin - just trust me, I'm The Donald". Donald Duck more like.
16

geekpie,

forfar 12/06/2008 09:49:27
Tart from New Zealand should remember the lesson from that country: rich Americans are buying up the land, fencing it off, and building hunting lodges or exclusive resorts. Scotland doesn't have as much land as New Zealand, so it would be even more folly over here as it is there.
17

Zambo,

12/06/2008 10:00:00
Yeah I can just see those big Wall Street bankers sitting in their office “Oh look here comes Donald again with another hair brained scheme let’s not check his credentials, his business plan, or his project details, I mean if that Scottish thing goes down we’ll all lose our bonuses if not our jobs but let’s just give him that $2 Billion anyway”

I’m glad you # 18 seem to know better than Donald’s investors how to do the lending business, maybe you should just pop over the pond and give them the benefit of your experience in project development, that'll soon stop Donald in his tracks.
18

Buttress,

12/06/2008 10:14:31
Once it's built - then contractors won't be needed. No saying they will be locals either. They could be brought in from anyhwere. This is not a lasting gain. And where are all these supposed staff going to live? In the luxury housing? Who is going to be rushing to buy that? The timeshares? Are all these claimed jobs required in the area? What is unemployment currently standing at?

Tourism? Golf? Really? How many more golf courses does a country need?

Please can those who claim that the SSSI isn't important (this isn't just any old wildlife area as 17 seems to suggest) - and that locals want this development, give me facts and figures to prove these claims?

'Can you give us a link to the architechural plans so we can judge the lack of merit?'


If you want to see the plans - seek out the local authority and ask, or contact A+DS, which was far from impressed. It's a tacky third rate development, maybe the locals slavering over having the development cluttering up the place haven't actually realised it's not exactly world class.

Trump admitted too that he hadn't any idea of the SSSI when he proposed the plans, nor had his golf course designer, and the 'right to roam' over the course wasn't thought about either. So really, not great so far - considering how much this is going to cost.
19

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 10:21:30
#20 Your sycophantic slavishness to Trumpty seems to know no bounds. But do check up on his business history and biography; he has left a trail of bankruptcies and ruined and bitter partners in his wake. A nice man to do business with.

You Trump supporters all thought “here comes Mr. Cash The Big Billionairre to lavish us with easy money” but unfortunately it's actually turning out like the fable about the Emperor's clothes.

While the Trump supporters (ie. The Emperor’s supporters) stand in the street and say “look how fine he is dressed, what beautiful expensive clothes he wears” the rest of us are not so easily duped by the cut of his jib or the rubbish talked about "his massive investment". We stand here and proudly state: far from looking finely dressed, Donald The Emperor is not actually wearing any clothes; it's all just hot air. (Sorry for those of you who haven't had a good enough education to have come across that famous fable - look it up on the net and learn something about the dangers of being easily duped). A fool and his money are easily parted. In this case the fool, Aberdeenshire is all set to be parted from its beautiful unique environment and a pile of cash as well.
20

Zambo,

12/06/2008 10:28:13
There was no local oil industry in Scotland before North Sea oil, now Aberdeen is an international hub for specialist oil and engineering companies who have centered their operations there and helped develop the area. Some of the people trained in Scotland are now leading experts in the field and in demand all over the world.

Local companies will have an excellent opportunity to compete for the development work and will have many competitive advantages over incoming firms.

“Trump admitted too that he hadn't any idea of the SSSI when he proposed the plans, nor had his golf course designer, and the 'right to roam' over the course wasn't thought about either. So really, not great so far - considering how much this is going to cost.” Sounds like an opportunity right there for a local consultant?
21

Yeah1,

12/06/2008 10:35:18
#10 Puskas:

"Anyone who wishes to spend so much money in that area should be allowed to get on with it."

What a ridiculous thing to say, are you suggesting if someone has enough money to spend they should be allowed to do whatever they want without regard to planning laws, the environment, the local population?

Your attitude is a sad indictment of today's world, just because someone has money they should not be allowed to do what they want.

How about if the US wanted to build a new Guatanamo Bay there? Presumably you would support that too since it would bring in money from the prison guards using local services, and jobs from building it etc?
22

Zambo,

12/06/2008 10:38:54
# 22

Since 90% of this project is to be financed on borrowed money, Donald’s business plan and financial projections will need to be pretty tight if he is to succeed in raising the finance. If his background and reputation are not fully known to his bankers maybe you could just pop down a few words on an email to them, save you wasting time and energy on this thread.
23

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 10:58:50
#25 The only time waster I see is you. Are you truly so naive that you don't know how any businessman with a penchant for it can make easy quick cash out of getting money from banks for a development and then chucking it all in and bankrupting their various limited companies that received the loans? It happens everyday all around the world. As one of our American friends said, "wake up and smell the roses".
24

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 11:02:06
27 Mikko,Drumnadrochit

Listen Drama Queen - you've got the Loch Ness Monster and we are getting two world class golf courses, a world class hotel, 500 houses and timeshares and that's that!
25

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 11:03:10
#28 Want a bet?
26

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 11:07:22
We're bought and sold for American gold. Such a parcel of rogues in a nation.
27

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 11:15:29
#31 Don't be so defeatist: by digging our heels in and getting the green environmentalists around the world to seek judicial reviews and put up red tape and legal challenges at every single turn, we can make Trumpty tear his hair out in despair and clear off out of our lives.
28

,

12/06/2008 11:24:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Buttress,

12/06/2008 11:33:05
Well you see Neil, you can demand all you want, but as you are such a bore and keep calling folks things like 'eco-fascists' and 'Luddites' no-one is taking you seriously so WON'T answer, not can't. I understand about the SSSI, it must be interesting or it wouldn't have been declared one you know, I've even watched things on the telly about it, so it MUST be important, and anyone else interested I am sure can look it up on t'internet.

How about the tacky architecture though, eh Neil? What do you have to say about that? How about all that cement which will be used, the CO2? All the materials used up building it? Not terribly eco-friendly eh Neil? Timeshares? Fuel used to drive there?

Come on - you call yourself an environmentalist?





30

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 11:33:46
32 Mikko,Drumnadrochit

It's nothing to do with you though - have you ever been to Menie Links?

I think that most normal people are aware of the new eco-fascist approach and I must say the tiny wee group of protesters have successfully hijacked this proposal to their own ends - they were quite well mobilised and indeed with the assistance of the Ellon Focus website as an e-mail hub have successfully kept each other informed as required - no argument there.

But I don't think that people in the UK or particularly in the North East here want to be dictated to by this fascist minority.

31

Buttress,

12/06/2008 11:35:11
As far as the golf course goes though Neil - think Trump may find he's building his empire on shifting sands...
32

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 11:36:59
#33 Yesterday I answered your question in clear terms and then asked if you needed me to re-write it in simple words so that you could better understand it.

Today you add another question, " how many scientific expeditions to study it have been made in the last 5 years?" On this most recent question I don't know off the top of my head. But I bet if I asked you how many ball bearings are in the gearbox of your car you couldn't answer me off the top of your head either. Does that mean you are unqualified to drive?

Your questions are facile and when we do reply you don't bother reading our replies. Why don't you answer Buttress' question about the architectural merits of Trumpty's plans?
33

Buttress,

12/06/2008 11:39:19
Now now - the word fascist is getting to be ignorantly bandied about here and I am starting to feel it's offensive.

As far as nothing to do with those who don't live there - shall we include Trump in that? He's - gulp - FORIN.

The argument that it's only locals which should have a say is a spot wrongheeded you know. Presumably then only locals will be able to walk there and live there, by this sort of reasoning?

What are you hoping to get out of it personally?
34

Zambo,

12/06/2008 11:52:39
# 27

Phew a real financial guru on this thread, you'd better get on to Wall Street with this information their due diligence process needs amending quick.

35

Myosotis,

Kincards. 12/06/2008 11:57:12
For Richard (17) and Nomada (29):

Yes, geomorphology is a very important reason for the SSSI designation.

But almost as important, and having a greater extent, are the rare habitats, most of them on the EC Habitats Directive Priority List.

So TIGLS are proposing to translocate 35 ha of these key habitats. That`s 35 football pitches, and 175,000 journeys with 2m x 1m blocks. An enormous cost and waste of resources, which could be avoided if Donald Trump would compromise.

It would probably be the biggest translocation ever carried out for a coastal site, and may well fail.

There have been botched attempts to move some turves already at Menie, making hideous messes, and I think Donald thought that these were what people had dumped on the site when he made his tour early this week.

And no one dare tell him it was HIS OWN STAFF DOING TRIALS.
36

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 12:00:12
38 Buttress,12/06/2008

Do you have any opinion on the developments south of Aberdeen at Cove, Portlethen and Newtonhill?

With regard to benefits - this development will without question benefit the area through increased business opportunities for builders and the service industry, will provide indirect and direct employment opportunities in the local and beyond.
Rates will also be generated that will obviously help the area and still pay the salaries of the pathetic gang of four Lib Dem clowns who are sitting in at the Inquiry now and being paid for it by the region.

Mr Trump's investment is welcome here and the majority want the proposal to proceed post haste.
37

Jabali,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 12:07:54
If the course(s) only costs £12million to build why does he need to invest a further £488million to make the development viable plus the associated £100million interest charges etc?

Aberdeenshire sounds like it could do with some external investment, the north-east is clearly lacking any major tourist destination beyond Deeside, and a world-class golf course plus facilities looks like a great project.

It's just the Trump's plans (you can see the drawings on his Menie website) are of the Las Vegas school of architecture and design - and would significantly detract from maintaining Scotland as a unique country - just another bit of US Scots pastiche.

The right developer, with the right plans is the solution. I hope that Trump is breaking the ground bureaucratically - but that someone more sophisticated can move it forward, if he is not prepared to listen to local voices and adapt.
38

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 12:09:45
#41 If "this development will without question benefit the area" then there wouldn't be so much contrary argument in here would there? Or are you God, giving us your full and final ruling on the matter?

Calling people clowns, drama queens and - even worse - fascists just because they don't share your views is really quite offensive. Could we please have agreement between all sides here that no more slurs of fascism will be used otherwise I think it is time for us to ask the moderator to start removing all postings that make such outrageous slurs.

The highly offensive and derogatory language is unnecessary and I hope that upon mature reflection the Trump supporters will realise that it does their cause no good whatsoever.
39

RJ,

12/06/2008 12:16:15
#33: Neil:

What's the SSSI for?

Read. The. Inquiry. Documents. http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/menieinquiry/

... particularly those from the Trump organisation's experts. They admit that the SSSI has very high nature conservation interest - but the Trump case is that a new golf course is more important; and that it has to go on the SSSI to be good enough to justify destroying the interest of the SSSI (which is sand dune geomorphology and sand dune habitat - or in plain English, how sand dunes move around and develop in shape and size over time, and what grows on them).

Your "how many 'expeditions' have been there challenge" is a straw man (look it up - it's a logical fallacy). Anyone with an interest has a right to go and look, study and enjoy without asking permission or registering their interest with anyone (see Part 1 of the Land Reform (Scotland) Actif in doubt). And the existence of "interest" in an SSSI can in no way be equated with popularity - "scientific interest" in the sense of an SSSI is a measure of the quality or unusualness of the site, not how many people go there.

There's no point attacking the SSSI, or those who wish to protect it. The Trump organisation have known about it all along and have refused to compromise or to adapt their plans to avoid a level of damage that would erase the "scientific interest" from the SSSI. Now - who's the bad guy?
40

,

12/06/2008 12:28:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
41

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 12:28:08
A big problem with moving turves from dune slacks is that suitable receiving areas have to be created, so the water regime is the same as at the original site.

TIGLS have proposed excavating ground down to near the water table, and then waiting to see if flooding occurs and for how long.

If flooded for most of the year, most plants in translocated blocks would die.

If flooded rarely if ever, most plants in translocated blocks would also die, since they grow in dune slacks because these places are regularly wet, and are flooded for usually 4-5 months over winter.

Getting the situation just right is tricky, as TIGLS admit. And while these operations are in progress the site will be like an opencast coal mine.
42

Buttress,

12/06/2008 12:29:42
Overton - I think the 'pathetic clown' may well be you.

43

Buttress,

12/06/2008 12:36:06
Come on then Neil - as we are all so wrong and so ignorant, do enlighten us - about the SSSI, about the architectural merit...
44

Myosotis,

Kincards. 12/06/2008 12:38:11
41:

The developments south of Aberdeen do not affect an SSSI.

Most conservationists and ecologists accept that we need more houses and workplaces, and simply want them put in sensible places.

If you work in Aberdeen it`s as easy to live in Portlethen as Balmedie (depending of course on if work is north or south of the centre). But when you want to travel for the amenities of Edinburgh and Glasgow it`s much better to be in Portlethen than Balmedie.

And doesn`t need as much costly infrastructure like the AWPR.
45

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 12:40:17
43 Mikko,Drumnadrochit

Sorry chum didn't think I was being offensive I just thought I was stating fact.
Everyone here is upset that a small minority of well organised individuals have almost scuppered what is generally considered to be a very good economic opportunity for the region.
Why should a minority dictate what the economic future of Aberdeenshire should be?
The clique involved are also strong objectors against the AWPR which is much need to remove gridlock from Aberdeen and support industry north of the city.

Your motives are being questioned by people and your aguments are weak no wonder people here are angry and exasperated.

We have four elected Lib Dem representatives siting in this Inquiry as objectors who are treating the electorate, their party and Aberdeenshire Council with the utmost contempt and you really think that normal people will sit and listen to your flowery remote objections without comment?

46

kimba,

12/06/2008 12:40:29
Then turn around Trump old chap,we don't need your golf course,if we need a new golf course the people of GB are more than capable of building our own!
47

Sedov,

Scotland 12/06/2008 12:40:49
Put up or shut up, Mr Trump.
48

,

12/06/2008 12:41:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

RJ,

12/06/2008 12:41:58
#45:

Ad hominem - logical fallacy
Reductio ad Nazium - logical fallacy
Poisoning the well - logical fallacy

What does my long post prove I am ignorant of and how? And would you care to address the points I made in it?
50

RJ,

12/06/2008 12:45:15
#53:

Ad hominem - logical fallacy
Reductio ad Nazium - logical fallacy
51

Loon fae Kemnay,

Kemnay 12/06/2008 12:56:36
Oerton - 7
"Wow, so whats wrong with building houses - surely thats within Local and Government policy?"

No it is not within Local Government policy. What is proposed is to build a new town and it states quite clearly in the Aberdeenshire Plan that there will be no new towns in Aberdeenshire!

Also there is no mention in the plans for the supporting infrastructure - schools, roads, health centres, police, water and waste etc etc. Who do you think is going to pay for that?? Would it not be the local council tax payer perhaps??
52

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 12:57:39
#29

Sorry - GEO-what???? ;-)

#40

Thank you, but it doesn't change my mind one iota.
53

,

12/06/2008 12:58:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
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54

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 12/06/2008 12:59:36
This won't be a golf-for-the-lads operation. The only Scots accent you will hear on the place will be the wee fella washing the clubs.
And how luxurious is a luxury home in the middle of a Scottish winter where I'm told it rains a bit.
Once this thing kicks in old Lord Comb-over will come looking for taxpayers' dosh. You've heard it here first.
55

Buttress,

12/06/2008 13:25:25
Neil post 58 - when Hitler is invoked in this manner it is normally regarded on messageboards that the poster has totally lost the plot.

Calling those you don't agree with fascists likewise.

Salem - using terms such as 'morons' isn't too useful either. Especially in the context of a post which shows a certain lack of flair and enlightenment.

Trolling or ignorant - I don't know, but you are hardly making your points with eloquence and BTW Neil as I stated yesterday, I'm not a 'he'.



56

RJ,

12/06/2008 13:27:57
#58: Neil old chap - I think you've lost the plot. The SSSI in question (Foveran Links) has been protected by the law of the land since it was designated in 1984. The Trump organisation accepts its special scientific interest - so I'm not entirely sure why you're bothering to attack it. If you had read the Trump organisation's inquiry documents you would understand this.

"eco-fascits"; "more deaths than Hitler" - are precisely the fallacies I meant. You say you've proved your point - but I see no proof, only bluster.

As for "robbing Scotland of £1,000M" - firstly, Trump is not the only show in town (or Scotland, at any rate). Scottish Ministers will need to consider whenther bending the rules as much as Trump wants them bent for him really sends out the right signals about Scotland being open for business as a small 21st century European democracy - or whether it looks more like hypnotic selling out to the first big name developer to come calling with a vanity scheme.

Quote from Mr Trump in Stornoway on Monday: "They all want Trump because I do the highest level of work, and I'm known for that. People know that our level of work is the best and when a project is finished, it's going to be the best, and that's why governments call me. They've a piece of land in a certain country, they call me."

Is that what we want of our Government?
57

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 13:30:09
50: As in almost every post, Overton gets the facts wrong.

Those opposing the Aberdeen Western Peripheral Route are almost entirely different to those opposing the Trump golf course.

The reason is obvious.

The proposers of this road have taken notice of the environmental features on potential routes, and have carefully designed the scheme to affect few houses and do least damage to the environment.

If the road had gone through the SWT Netherley Moss, then opposition from that group would have come. But the AWPR weaves around such places.

In contrast Donald Trump was attracted by fine habitat, didn`t bother to check if it was listed, and continues to show he doesn`t care. But DT puts his own ambition above a system that tens of thousands of people have diligently operated to give people throughout Scotland attractive wildlife and as little impediment as possible on sensible economic development.

This Inquiry hinges on whether gain for one part of Scotland merits the collapse of a successful system for managing development across the whole of Scotland.
58

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 13:34:47
Attractive wildlife at Menie...yeah so attractive that - oh, about 27 people visited to view the yellow-chested dipper in the last 12mths.

Ho hum.

FOREEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
59

Myosotis,

Kincards. 12/06/2008 13:36:00
Straightforward untruths from La La (62) on the rare plants.

What species are they that cannot now be found as you claim?

And what report on Menie was written 20 years ago?

No answer will mean you know you have been talking rubbish.

60

RJ,

12/06/2008 13:38:12
#62: SSSIs are nationally important by definition. The interest of the SSSI is acknowledged by the Trump organisation - whose experts feel it should in fact be larger than it is and cover more of the land proposed by Trump for golf: http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2326554.0.trumphired_expert_objected_to_golf_course.php - views that appear also in the Trump organisation's Environmental Statement and inquiry documents.

In a nutshell their position is: it's an important sand dune site, but our golf course will be even more important. Some people buy that, some people (me included) do not and think that Trump should compromise.

In the end of course, Ministers will decide.
61

Buttress,

12/06/2008 13:40:08
I posted this yesterday but for those unaware:

A+DS Criticise Design
Architecture and Design Scotland criticise Trump Organsation's concept designs:

Head of Design Review at ADS, Angela Williams, said: "Should a world-class golf facility be located in such a sensitive landscape, it needs to be realised through an exemplary design process to secure a built development and reformed landscape of exceptionally-high quality. We do not see such an aspiration in the designs as currently submitted.

"They would not only have a negative impact on an area of high landscape value but would also devalue the Scottish architectural tradition that they attempt to emulate. We consider that an outline planning application should not be approved on the basis of the information submitted.

"We do not believe that the designs submitted are of sufficiently high quality for this unique location, for a project with such an international profile, or for Scotland as a whole."
030907



62

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 13:40:36
65 Myosotis,

Again you come on spout absolute rubbish:

Martin Ford is attending the Inquiry as an objector and is registered objector to the AWPR.
W.Walton is attending the Inquiry as an objector and is registered objector to the AWPR.
They are sitting side by side and whispering into each others ears.

With regard to Menie neither you nor any of the tiny minority of objectors gave a hoot about Menie before and it is only a pretence that you care now.

63

Buttress,

12/06/2008 13:44:20
70 Overton Balmedie:

They are entitled to attend, they are entitled to object, it's quite legal, and again - intemperate allegations regarding people's motives for objecting.


'Aboslute rubbish' - not your opinion so it's rubbish? We live in a democracy - and maybe we all actually care about defending it?

64

,

12/06/2008 13:54:51
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65

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 13:59:09
70 and 65:

Overton cites two individuals. I talk about major organisations such as SNH, RSPB, SWT.

These bodies have thousands/tens of thousands of people pushing vigorously for action when cases like the AWPR and Menie come along. But these thousands are satisfied a sensible route has been chosen for the AWPR, they are so angry about the damage to the environment, to Scotland`s reputation, and the consequent loss of skilled jobs, that a Menie approval will cause.

66

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 14:03:44
73:

A question, Jock.

Are developers elected?

If not, why should their views hold sway over other unelected organisations.

You claim the system of SSSIs cuases some people "to tear their hair out". So why hasn`t the Government abandoned it?

Again the answer is obvious. The great majority of people want development to be controlled and to avoid the best places for wildlife.
67

,

12/06/2008 14:12:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
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68

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:14:37
Overton - 74 - I have asked the moderators to remove your post, as again you make disparaging comments and liken posters here to fascists. Are you in fact the same person as Neil?

You really are not worth responding to, if this is the standard of argument of those claiming to live locally and support Trump and this development, I suspect the objectors have little to fear.
69

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:18:37
77 - Neil - - are your posts now random and computer generated, using the same tired phrases in no particular order without actually saying anything? Or are you simply a troll?

70

,

12/06/2008 14:23:02
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71

Malc.F,

France 12/06/2008 14:23:36
I AM WRITING THIS IN CAPITALS SO THAT YOU CAN SEE THE TRUTH. I HAVE A NEIGHBOUR HERE WHO IS A CORPORATE LAWYER IN THE USA AND HE ASSURES ME THAT IT IS NO SECRET THAT DONALD TRUMP NEVER EVER SPENDS ANY OF HIS OWN MONEY ON HIS NUMEROUS PROJECTS AND THAT IT WILL BE THE SCOTTISH TAXPAYER WHO WILL EVENTUALLY PAY FOR THIS FOLLY.
I HAVE A SUGGESTION FOR THE THOUSANDS OF LOCALS WHO ARE CONVINCED THAT THIS IS A GOOD IDEA. CLUB TOGETHER AND PUT A WEE BITTIE OF YOUR OWN MONEY INTO THIS AND YOU WILL THEN REAP THE REWARD OR THE WHIRLWIND BY OWNING IT YOURSELVES,BUT PLEASE DON'T PAINT TRUMP AS AN HONOUABLE MAN.
72

hassan i sabbah,

edinburgh 12/06/2008 14:26:02
I just don't like the look o'the felly!
73

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:30:27
80 - Overton - why thank you! I do my best!
74

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 14:32:15
62:

Still waiting for a list of rare plants that can`t be found at Menie known 20 years ago.

And now Neil (77) starts quoting your vapourings as facts.

These groundless messages weaken the developer`s case, and help swell the tide of people changing their mind on the proposal, and now wanting it rejected.
75

RJ,

12/06/2008 14:32:21
#77: From Trump organisation precognition and rebuttal statements to the inquiry:

"In general, such massive inland bare sand features
are almost unknown elsewhere in Scotland, but are uniquely found at Balmedie, Menie, Foveran and Sands of Forvie."

"Potential disagreements notwithstanding, there is general agreement on the importance of Foveran Links SSSI and dune habitats south of the SSSI boundary which are regarded as SSSI quality. Likewise, there is further agreement on the severe adverse impacts of development for golf within the dune sector at Menie."

Just accept that the SSSI is important - Trump's advisors do.
76

Buttress,

12/06/2008 14:35:26
And that the building development isn't considered of a great deal of architectural merit - Scotland meets Disneyland.

77

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 14:38:50
Thanks, Jock (82).

You and I are not too far apart.

I agree on a single badger set, and maybe you know some could be affected by the AWPR (N.B. - conservation bodies are not opposing the present broad route).

As for Menie, I have been pushing for a compromise, but if accepted with no changes I still predict disastrous results for Scotland.
78

RJ,

12/06/2008 14:43:20
#82: The SSSI system does allow damaging projects to go ahead if they are beneficial enough (in terms of the *public* interest) - in official speak:

only if: the objectives of designation and the overall integrity of the area will not be compromised; or
any significant adverse effects on the qualities for which the area has been designated are clearly outweighed by social or economic benefits of national importance.
79

overton,

aberdeen 12/06/2008 15:08:38
88 Myosotis,
' I still predict disastrous results for Scotland'

Is that the old Drama Queen in you sneaking out again?

Disastrous? Michty Me.
80

puskas,

East kilbride 12/06/2008 15:13:54
No 24 Yeah1.


Well that was an interesting reply. Please think for yourself and don't try to enter anothers brain when you have so much difficulty with your own.
In your reply these obviously are your own words that don't come anything close to anything I said..

Do you come from outer space?

Read what I said even if it takes you into next year and beyond you silly boy. LOL
81

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 15:21:33
91 Nomada,

Your sure you're not appearing at the Inquiry as an old, gibbering, senile, white haired, retired town planner?
82

Buttress,

12/06/2008 15:26:39
Trolls - everywhere, you can't get away from them.

Neil and Overton - one and the same person. Both simply need ignoring.
83

Buttress,

12/06/2008 15:28:38
95 - don't feed 'em and they will go away...
84

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 15:33:05
95 Nomada,

Please resort to originality if you can.
85

,

12/06/2008 15:49:33
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86

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 15:56:17
62, La La:

You`ve had getting on for three hours now to produce the list of rare plants seen 20 years ago at Menie you said no one can now find.

Maybe you`ve lost this list.

Or maybe you are ashamed of letting the pro-Trump side down with your foolish statement.
87

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 16:06:08
A funny thing no one has enlightened us on whether Donald Trump saw real heaps of rubbish put down by fly-tippers who had crept past his guarded entrances to the dunes, or whether he merely saw the messes his own staff had created (40).

But why should fly-tippers go all that distance when there are many easy places for them to spoil?

I also wonder about these carcases - all that I have seen have been dead seabirds at the top of the beach, and whether a golf course comes or not, these deaths will continue just as now.
88

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 16:08:25
#60 You ask for one good reason to deny this application. We have given you many so no point re-hashing that one again. Just go back and read.

Then you say "if indeed you are Scottish you are a disgrace to the heritage of Scotland that has given the world so much and especially America." This is once again a very personal insult evidently meant to intimidate or bully me into meekly accepting that anything people like you say must be accepted by me and my like. And people like Neil here call environmentalists like me "eco fascists" - our only crime is to put quiet, sensible arguments for retaining Scotland's beautiful heritage that Americans tell us they want to come and visit. Americans keep telling us that they do not come here to see more Trumpty Towers. They have enough of that kind of mess in America already.
89

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 16:15:29
90:

Disastrous because every special place, SSSI, SAC, listed building in Scotland will become available for developers to choose which will give them most profit.

And places like Marischal College, which Aberdeen City is not in a good position to convert to offices, will be freely available for any conversion that emasculates their features, in the same way that the Menie SSSI will suffer from TIGLS.
90

RJ,

12/06/2008 16:22:48
#62: and another couple of things. Foveran Links SSSI (the one in question) is designated in its own right for (once again) its sand dune geomorphology and sand dune habitat - or in plain English, how sand dunes move around and develop in shape and size over time, and what grows on them.

It abuts the Sands of Forvie SSSI (it's not 20 miles away - the northern edge of the Trump development site is less than 2 miles from the Ythan).

Porky - or honest mistake?
91

Buttress,

12/06/2008 16:31:52
Neil - I've yet to read anything you say which isn't simply a load of low level nonsense, with the term 'eco-facist' embedded somewhere in it.
You, Overton - one and the same or not - trolls.

Now go one Neil - tell us what your eco credentials are, and how you feel building a vast development of poor quality buildings will enhance the environment.



92

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 16:36:06
#104 You're wasting your time Buttress. I have come to believe that Neil is a well trained parrot speaking into one of those cheesy bits of PC software that tries to transcribe what you say into the word processor. In Neil's case it is basically just "you are all parisitic eco-fascists". It's all we'll ever get out of him and overton.

He certainly will never answer your question about the architectural merits of Trumpty's plans because he can't.
93

,

12/06/2008 16:42:06
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94

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 16:52:23
#106 If you haven't got a dictionary Neil, may I suggest the free one at www.dictionary.com where you will find that my word "quiet" is very different to your word "silent". I guess you would prefer us to be silent but that ain’t going to happen. Far from it. Live with it.

Now answer Buttress' question please.
95

Buttress,

12/06/2008 17:02:52
I see what you mean 107 Mikko - Neil is getting less and less comprehensible... I wouldn't have thought it possible yesterday, but the software is obviously in difficulties... garbage in, garbage out eh Neil?

Now - answer the questions put to you without a whole load of nonsense about 'parasites' 'eco-fascists' and Luddites'... or indeed likening us to a certain second world war dictator...

96

,

12/06/2008 17:42:16
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97

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 17:51:25
Buttress

Good evening.

My, you've been busy today. No posts on Trump for 6 months and then all over it like a rash, day and night. Have you finally found your calling?

Anything new to say today or are we covering the same ground again and again?
98

brownlie,

12/06/2008 17:51:54
Surely you guys/gals must realise that the decision for this project to go ahead will not be made on this site.

Personally, I feel that posters on here seem to be under the delusion that they can influence events one way or the other and I strongly suspect that that is not the case.
99

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 17:54:55
65 Myotosis

Try William Walton. Star of P&J Letters, the Trump debate, Road (Non)Sense, the PLI and the next PLI.
100

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 12/06/2008 18:06:53
Surely you have all realised that some of us will dig our heels in so hard and throw up so many problems that Trumpty will go away. I don't for a minute think this forum decides the outcome. That happens elsewhere where Donald Duck realises it's a waste of his time and money and we are very good at wasting chancer's time and money.
101

dido-bendigo,

Scotland 12/06/2008 18:15:07
If I may act as honest broker in today's effort? An old saying - "The person who starts shouting the first has lost the argument!" Well, after screening the first few, I think #17 has it! #17 has it!

There really is some very strong feeling emanating from the Aberdeen area, are you all hard up and unemployed? Blind allegiance to a lost cause can lead to years of misery. Anyone across there read Scottish history at uni?
102

,

12/06/2008 18:15:54
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103

Buttress,

12/06/2008 18:20:35
But Neil - I'm not part of any 'eco-fascist' movement dear... I just think this is a bad, bad development, in local terms and in national ones too. There are ideals and policies at stake here which I don't wish to see destroyed. I dislike lousy architecture too. I agree with A and D S.

And of course this site will have no influence at all over what happens! It's amazing that anyone could think it might! Calm down dears, its only a website.
104

Buttress,

12/06/2008 18:21:33
115 Neil - that's really funny! Go on - rant a bit more...
105

Zambo,

12/06/2008 18:41:33
A $2 million FDI for Scotland and the people of Scotland is worth fighting tooth and nail to secure, every single project of this magnitude changes from the drawing board to the execution, what is seen in the plans can easily be negotiated to improve, and you guys see it as some kind of moral victory to chase it away? Very very sad.
106

Neil,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 18:46:25
116 "But Neil - I'm not part of any 'eco-fascist' movement"

That'll be right - we have your word that you are only opposed to it on architectural grounds. On the other hand we have your word about an awful lot of stuff that turned out to be lies.

We know for a fact that most eco-fascists will tell any lie & adopt any camouflage to push Ludditry. What most people here reading your claim to be merely an architectural critic won't know is that you started off yesterday criticising it purely on the bais of the SSI - which, as has now been proven - none of you fascists actually knew anything about in the first place.

So where is the evidence from you or Mikko or Martin Ford or anybody supporting the Greens that, despite all the evidence, your word now is infinitely more trustworthy thanit was earlier.
107

Buttress,

12/06/2008 18:54:23
Neil - does anyone care about what you accuse me, or anyone else of? I oppose the entire development on the grounds that it is against national policy - and the architecture is rubbish. I don't like Trump's hair either, so that's it then as far as I am concerned. Bald men should be bold and honest about it.

The final decision rests not with me, or you, but following the public inquiry.

Get a grip though, the sort of incoherent repetitive ranting carried out here does your case (if indeed you have one) no credit.

Personally I think you have all the hallmarks of a troll.



108

Buttress,

12/06/2008 18:56:31
Peat fired croft? Wow. Such luxury as I can only dream about...

Morons - no not offended, simply love it when you have nothing else to say and resort to such crude banalities. Makes me appreciate the intelligent posters all the more.
109

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 18:59:46
Hey #114 do I win a prize?

I'll take a year's subscription at the magnificant Trump golf complex at Menie, please. ;-)
110

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 19:16:17
123 Buttress

Listen buttface time you were away hame for your tea - you've lost the plot like your eco-freakazoid pals.
111

Buttress,

12/06/2008 19:20:12
Finished your homework then Overton? Been allowed access to the computer again?

Another troll - nothing at all to do with Balmedie are you.
112

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 19:32:59
126 Buttress,

Troll? Whats that? Is it like the little wee hairy men/ornaments you can buy in Norway?
Are they environmentalists or accordian players?

One of the Lib Dem objectors looks quite troll like - a wee bit halloweenesque actually - someone today asked if she was wearing a mask which I must say I thought was a bit cruel.
Her questioning today, however, was extraordinarily painful and the general consensus is that the poor woman has drifted completely over the edge.
Sad really - non-photogenic and a raging, incoherent lunatic as well.
113

Buttress,

12/06/2008 19:39:21
Ah - bit like you then?
114

Buttress,

12/06/2008 19:44:57
Acatually, St Pancras is as it has been since it opened a railway station. The hotel is called the Midland Grand Hotel.
115

Buttress,

12/06/2008 19:46:56
The campigners believe that the SSSI ststus should in this case override the commercial development - it's not what is normally deemed of overriding public interest. That's normally reserved for genuine public schemes such as transport infrastructure.

116

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 19:51:10
Buttface 129/130/131

Three in a row? The wee finger must have been going like mad.
117

Buttress,

12/06/2008 19:53:06
Overton, Do go to bed now, there's a dear. You must need your beauty sleep.
118

Buttress,

12/06/2008 19:58:40
Well, see Hotel Endsleigh, Devon - owned by Forte's daughter.

Conservation is about the management of change - as with the alterations to Barlow's great trainshed at St Pancras, in order to preserrve what is great and significant, and accommodate the Eurostar terminal.

The hotel was by George Gilbert Scott. Midland Railway.

Read St Pancras, Simon Bradley (edits the Pevsner guides).



119

Buttress,

12/06/2008 20:01:01
As with other developments - such as the London Smithfield inquiry, where the developer claimed that the public interest of demolishing the building was greater than adapting. Nothing to so with the fact that they could than make far more money out of it...

That's why there are inquiries - to sort the Trump fiction from fact.




120

Buttress,

12/06/2008 20:14:52
But all change isn't always good. I'm quite in favour of conserving important habitats and buildings. However, as long as what is significant remains intact, then things can be adapted and altered.

I remain unconvinced that what Trump wishes to do is for the benefit of anything but his own pocket however.




121

Buttress,

12/06/2008 20:30:01
I doubt it. In my view it will end up a low quality development, and a spoilt SSSI. This isn't yet a third world country, desperate for any foreign cash and developer who sees Scotland at the moment as somewhere ripe for plucking. Too many naively supporting that.

122

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 20:34:04
139 Buttress,

Eh, what? What's wrong with making money then? Where do you come from - some socialist Utopia where everyone is provided for and a barter system exists? Or are you on the dole and the money is provided by the people who go out there and work.

The whole objector exercise is nothing to do with a sand dune its to do with your abject jealousy and some incredibly bad mannered assumptions about a man that looks to invest in a wilderness.

Go away and stop spouting garbage.
123

Buttress,

12/06/2008 20:35:45
Overton - you are an ill manered and inept fool, with no idea how to put across any ideas which may flit from time to time across what passes for a brain.

And that's being kind.


124

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 20:40:37
Buttheed -

Michty me.
125

overton,

balmedie 12/06/2008 21:03:42
145 Jock Wilson

Agreed Jock.
126

Buttress,

12/06/2008 21:27:23
I think that Scotland is being milked, by those who see that they need to get in rapidly and make a fast buck, before public opinion is more outraged.

Mountgrange, at Caltongate, Trump...

127

Buttress,

12/06/2008 21:30:34
Not much of an addition to the discussion really, and I prefer a malt.

128

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 22:13:47
Jock, 128, 133:

I agree a hotel would be a good use for Marischal College provided the frontage and courtyard appearance stayed intact.
129

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 22:36:38
Jock, 128:

What reason have you for thinking that loss of this SSSI would not open the floodgates for other losses.

The usually-important benefit of new investment in boosting employment is less strong in Aberdeenshire (with 1% unemployment) than anywhere else in Scotland. Elsewhere, the value in extra employment from putting factories, power stations, houses, relief roads, sporting facilities on SSSIs would be much greater.

Also this SSSI does hold more special features than most SSSIs, with its priority EC habitats, endangered plants, species having UK Biodiversity Action Plans, and above-all its rare mobile massive sand dunes.

On top of which, the great publicity will mean everybody will heed the decision, especially developers and councillors.

With TIGLS having a poor case, and the loss in credibility of Donald Trump under Tuesday`s questioning (admitted he hadn`t read even the summaries of key documents; admitted he bought the ground without knowing it was listed, said lots of golf courses had been built on SSSIs in Britain when only there is only one example, tried to tell us just a "handful of people" had signed against the development when there`s almost 9,000 on the PM petitions), this SSSI should be far safer than most.
130

,

12/06/2008 22:39:04
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131

Myosotis,

12/06/2008 22:43:45
La La (148):

What cheek you have coming on here again, and failing to tell which are the rare plants seen 20 years ago at Menie that nobody can now find, your fatuous untrue claim made in 62.

Whenever I see you write, I will ask you to justify this rubbish.
132

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 23:04:12
151 Myotosis

Trump lost no credibility on the first day of the PLI, and actually enhanced his own case in the way that he dealt with Ford's weak questioning. As you will remember, even the BBC said he had a weak front 9 and a strong back 9, and finished the day well. Don't underestimate Trump as a powerful and influential brand. His positive comments will be far-reaching across the globe, and they have already put (forgotten) Menie on the world map.

Your PM Petition is of little influence as it does not speak solely for the people of the NE, and it was local opinion that Trump was talking about.

Both Aberdeen City and Shire councils have stated publicly that they wish to increase the overall population of the NE and what better way to do that than bring new jobs here.

And your comment about Menie being a 'Special" SSSI (or an SSSSI)?? That's a new one. Not even official objectors have used that one yet. Forvie is a truly special SSSI, not Menie. In any case Scotland has more than it's fair share of SSSIs - 12.5% of the total land and rising - compared with the rest of the UK. Ironically, Scotland's economic growth is behind that of the rest of the UK, and we shouldn't be disadvantaged by having less land available for economic development.
133

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:14:36
Neil 152 - you are one of the most seriously disturbed individuals I have come across on a website in a very long time.

I think that the police now need to investigate your allegations, which are becoming deranged.

I am sure that the website owners will be able to supply contact details.

I suggest you look up the laws regarding posting on the internet, and libel.



134

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:23:04
I do think some folk are trying to bolster up a flagging case.

Interesting Guardian column today:

'The Trump case has its comic elements and in the wider scheme of things it's no big deal. But it can be viewed as a test of whether the Scottish government – and we as a wider society – can stand up to big business or whether we're enthralled to its allure. Golf may be one of the great selling points of the country but this is a resort built on a more precarious base than Donald's hair-piece.

Rubbishing environmentalists is old hat.'


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/12/donaldtrump.golf






135

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:32:18
Further interesting comment from the Guardian website:


' macanna
Jun 12 08, 06:30pm (about 5 hours ago)

I live only a few miles from where this might happen. I have lived here for 30 years, so I suppose I am still an "incomer"!

I hope I am a friend of the environment, but there is an essential business reason that this development must be stopped.

Here in the Aberdeen area unemployment has averaged about 2% for all of that time. The almost certainly permanant change in the price of oil will ensure we are not short of work for decades to come. The problems with the economy in Aberdeen are associated with an economy at full heat. We do not need, in fact must reject Trump's tourist jobs. No part of the country needs them less. We do not have any spare people for these dishwashing jobs.

We do need a long term plan to continue to support and create new jobs in the high-tech engineering sector. At the moment these developments are going well. We have some world class facilities. A world class golf course is just a diversion.

To allow this development to go ahead makes great sense if the motivation is property development, it makes no economic sense for this area at all.

Anyway - has anyone told the Prince of Vulgar about the haar (sea mist) ? Where his golf course is supposed to go will be unplayable for half of all summer afternoons and evenings. But then by that time he will have his money.'


A local not desperate for the development, and arguing coherently about why not? Is this a first?




136

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:39:48
Is that Linklater?
137

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:45:56
Linklater who used to edit this paper I recall?

The same one who was all for conservation when it involved Caltongate?

This comment under his article:

'Locals beware; this will be an exclusive housing / hotel development. A similar project that Mr Trump has been involved in on the Island of Canoun has left the local people living on a small strip of the island with no access to the developed areas, unless of course it is to service the owners needs

Dave Cusick, London,'

Of course, in Scotland, as Trump only recently doscovered, anyone has the right to roam on his course.





138

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 23:46:15
157 & 158 Buttress

Do you work for The Guardian?

Copying and pasting selective comment is very admirable, but hardly convincing.
I mean "dishwashing jobs and the Prince of Vulgar"? I can see how this letter appeals to you, but comments like these give the game away.

Either is Mike Small's freelance article. Again, it's one-sided, where the only mention of the economy comes from an 'eminent' environmentalist. Again, hardly convincing.
139

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:47:15
Don't be silly Andrew.
140

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 23:52:53
161 Buttress

"Of course, in Scotland, as Trump only recently doscovered, anyone has the right to roam on his course".

If you cared to find out about day two of the PLI, you'd see that Martin Hawtree who designed the course said that the vast majority of the public footpaths on Menie Links will remain and that the course was designed with these in mind.

141

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/06/2008 23:54:28
Sorry Buttress, "don't be silly" is not good enough.
142

Buttress,

12/06/2008 23:57:50
Well, jolly good then. Public footpaths are to remain -apart from those that aren't?

Only it's not much of walk, with golf balls flying around.

Me, I'm off to bed, as this is just going over the same ground, and until the results of the inquiry are known, in reality a bit of a waste of time, apart from my libel case against Neil. I do enjoy a bit of litigation. ;-)



143

Buttress,

13/06/2008 00:00:48
166 Salem - oh go on, what a wag you are, bet everyone in the pub falls around at your merry quipping. Jings, shame that music hall has declined really, such talent as yours should be rewarded.



144

Buttress,

13/06/2008 00:06:19
And here you go folks - new article today 13th:

'Trump's £1bn plan 'will fuel global interest in North-east''


145

overton,

balmedie 13/06/2008 06:45:41
Buttface - here's a realistic headline from the Evening Express last night - Storr exposed as the clown she is.

I again ask the question: On whos behalf are Johnstone, Ross, Ford and Storr attending this meeting?
It's certainly not on behalf of:
1. The electorate
2. The Lib Dem Party
3. Aberdeenshire Council


EVENING EXPRESS - 12.06.08

Trump opponent stopped in her tracks at inquiry
Councillor and leader go-head to-head
By David Ewen

Published: 12/06/2008


TYCOON: Donald Trump plans a £1bn development.
More Pictures
IT WAS a chance for Debra Storr to show her boss who knew best – but the campaigning councillor was stopped in her tracks.

The Aberdeenshire member was appearing at the public inquiry into Donald Trump’s golf plan for Balmedie.

And on the end of her attack was council leader Anne Robertson.

Ms Storr began by asking Mrs Robertson to recap on the debate that led to a council committee’s rejection of the plan.

But after several minutes Trump’s QC was forced to step in.

“I’m at a loss to know exactly where we might be going with this,” said Lord Colin Boyd.

Chairman James McCulloch agreed and said his “finger had been hovering” over the pause button.

“It’s a matter of record what happened at those meetings,” said Mr McCulloch.

Ms Storr tried to argue the council wasn’t behind the plan – despite 63 out 65 councillors showing support after it was called in by the Government for a ruling.

Only Ms Storr and her colleague Martin Ford, also an official objector at the inquiry, registered dissent at the December meeting.

Mrs Robertson said: “Individuals came to individual decisions.”

She accepted that this was not in the role of a planning authority, and that there had been acceptance that the plan for two courses, 500 houses and hotel did not comply with all of the council’s policies.

But in doing so she spiked Ms Storr’s guns. “We’re not getting anything from this line of questioning,” said one of Mr M
146

Myosotis,

13/06/2008 09:09:45
170:

Many reporters from many newspapers are covering the story and inquiry.

Only the Evening Express and P & J are enthralled to Donald Trump. They slant the stories to turn disasters into triumphs, they omit key facts that they don`t want readers to know, they refuse to publish letters from opponents.

And even worse, if a hostile letter or statement is considered, it has to be referred to TIGLS before being published, for TIGLS to agree/accept the wording.

The EE and P & J are not neutral, but in some way that may one day emerge, are being controlled by TIGLS.
147

Buttress,

13/06/2008 09:33:00
I'm not unused to either public inquiries, or the ways of the press.

Pity some folk think all they read in the papers must be true.

The outcome of this inquiry will be interesting.
148

Buttress,

15/06/2008 08:57:34
Yawn.
149

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 15/06/2008 11:51:04
Myosotis

Your conspiracy theories about TIGLS are amateur. If you've really read the P&J this past week, you'll have noticed more letters of objection than letters for, in the letters page.

It seems that you're content with rubbishing the facts for your own ends. Pathetic.
150

Buttress,

15/06/2008 12:45:21
Oh but it could all be part of the masterplan you know - just so that it looks as though there is no conspiracy... and at times conspiracies are amateur, it's surprising!

Anyhow, interesting to hear that there are now letters of objection, if you read here it sould seem that everyone is in favour apart from a few supposed 'eco-fascists' whatever they might be...

;-)
151

Myosotis,

15/06/2008 19:03:45
176:

Just how do you know that the balance of letters published equates with the balance of letters received?

Have you had the personal experience of having a letter that you have sent to the press being vetted by the opposition, and the wording changed, before it could be published.

In 50 years of writing to newspapers, I have never experienced this before the Trump set-to.
152

Buttress,

15/06/2008 21:11:19
While I frequently have letters edited for publication - so it's not unusual - what evidence have you of the vetting?

153

Myosotis,

16/06/2008 22:08:39
Told this by telephone.

Then in due course vetted letter e-mailed to me to see if I was satisfied that my sense wasn`t changed too much.

 

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