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HBOS chiefs accused of dereliction of duty and failing to explore rival bids

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Published Date: 06 November 2008
DIRECTORS of HBOS have been accused of failing in their duties to shareholders by not looking seriously at alternatives to the Lloyds TSB takeover bid.
A cross-party group of MSPs yesterday launched a fresh attack on the deal and said they had written to the Takeover Panel, the independent regulatory body, to ask for the tie-up to be suspended until more information was garnered.

The Scotsman,
which has been spearheading a drive for answers about the takeover, revealed last weekend that two other parties were considering a bid for the ailing Edinburgh bank.

At a press conference at Holyrood yesterday, MSPs Tavish Scott, Alex Neil and Margo MacDonald claimed the potential rival bids were not being taken seriously.

Mr Neil, of the SNP, also said he was confident the identity of at least one rival bidder would be released this week.

Mr Scott, the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, said: "The non-executive directors at HBOS must explore all the options on behalf of shareholders. I find it extraordinary that those non-executive directors haven't been in touch with any other parties to explore those options."

Mr Scott said he had met Jim Spowart, the Scots financier involved with the second bid, and Vince Cable, the Lib Dem Treasury spokesman. He said Mr Cable had undertaken to write to the Chancellor asking for assurances that all bids would be treated equally.

Mr Neil said HBOS should be talking to Mr Spowart about the rival bid: "The HBOS directors have a fiduciary duty to ensure they get the best deal for the shareholders. They have not explored any other options. That is dereliction of duty in our view."

However, Shane O'Riordain of HBOS, accused the politicians of "a very unhelpful intervention", adding: "HBOS is not a political plaything. This is a real and substantive company that is actively looking after the interests of all its shareholders, including in Scotland.

"Our board must be allowed to get on and do the right thing for our company. We are recommending the Lloyds TSB deal to our shareholders because it offers real financial benefits to our owners."

However, Mr Neil said he had "very, very serious concerns, not just about the merger but the way in which the merger is being arranged and organised".

He criticised the "arrogant presumption being made by some people in Lloyds and HBOS that this is a done deal", adding: "They seem to forget the shareholders haven't yet – and I don't believe they will – approve this merger."

The independent MSP Margo MacDonald said information was "being withheld from shareholders".

She said she was concerned about the "undue pressure that's going to come on Edinburgh" and that "people here could lose everything".

Meanwhile, Gavin Gemmell, the chairman of Archangel Informal Investment, a network of private individuals who last year ploughed £14 million into new companies in central Scotland, said he shared the dismay at what had happened to RBS and HBOS, but added that it was time to move on and deal with the new reality.

Mr Gemmell said that Scots should not get misty-eyed about the loss of the Bank of Scotland, adding: "Both RBS and HBOS have not put much energy into small businesses over the last few years."

Meanwhile, the Scottish Labour leader, Iain Gray, said: "For over a month now, Alex Neil of the SNP has been going on about an alternative bid. It is time he said who they are and they came to the table.

"It is irresponsible to raise hopes if there is nothing concrete there."


BACKGROUND

The Scotsman revealed on Saturday that an overseas financial institution was looking at putting in a rival bid for HBOS. Operating through a London-based merchant banker, which has been in touch with leading businessman Jim Spowart, it has sought assurances from the Treasury that it will be treated equally to Lloyds. A third potential bid also emerged over the weekend. Alex Neil, SNP MSP, said it was a "big big global player". But a Lloyds TSB spokesman said yesterday it had not seen any concrete detail.

"We are absolutely focused on the deal on the table," he said.


Sturgeon: UK ministers' reaction to downturn too slow

Hamish Macdonell

UK MINISTERS have failed to act quickly enough or widely enough to help boost the economy, Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, claimed yesterday.

Ms Sturgeon said that while Holyrood ministers would do what they could to help the economy, Westminster was being slow and secretive about what it was doing. She said: "I would certainly hope that they would do much more in the future than they have done to date."

Last month Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, vowed the Treasury will use public spending to fend off the worst of the downturn. He said then: "This is a time when you have to support the economy. You will see us switching our spending priorities to areas which make a difference."

However, Ms Sturgeon said that the Scottish Government did not as yet have any details of what action was planned.

She said: "We don't as a government yet have any detail from the UK government of what their plans in that regard are, or what the value of those plans might be."

But she continued: "I certainly would hope that those plans are substantial. I don't think there is any doubt we need to see considerable reflationary activity by the UK government.

"I think we've heard signals from the UK government over the past couple of weeks that they agree with that, although the devil is in the detail and we await the detail.

"I certainly would very much hope that whatever spending plans flow from that, Scotland gets its fair share."

Ms Sturgeon also outlined to members of Holyrood's Local Government and Communities Committee what measures the SNP administration had taken to help the economy, including plans to accelerate up to £100 million of cash for affordable housing.

She explained she envisaged the bulk of that cash would be used to support the building of new homes, arguing this would not only help provide housing but would also assist the struggling construction sector.

The government has already announced how £9 million of the accelerated cash will be spent, with £4 million being used to bring forward work on sites, and £5 million being used to help purchase land for affordable-housing developments.

Ms Sturgeon added: "We've identified a further £8 million, which we've not announced yet due to some commercial sensitivities, because some of that will support off-the-shelf purchases of existing stock."



Page 1 of 1

 
1

madrab,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 00:05:44
Will all alternative bids receive the same backing from the English Government that the TSB bid seems to have?
2

madrab,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 00:06:42
Vote Labour, vote jobs for England
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 00:39:02


All by far, too late change anything now!

The, 'Bickering' and 'Squealing', will only lead to more griefs, which are quite frankly,.....

......'out off our hands',

Decision makers, Have Made Their Decisions!, Full Stop!

Time! Well that's, 'long past', its all too late now,

HBOS should have been saved, long before getting to the stage we are at now,

So do yourselves a 'favour', unless you want, 'grey hair', 'stress', and your life shortened by needless arguments,....

.....Que Sera, Sera.


4

,

06/11/2008 01:26:31
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

smjambo,

06/11/2008 02:55:20
This is all very tiresome. If indeed there is really an alternative buyer(s) out there why have they not yet come forth, or there been any rumours as to who indeed may have an interest. Things are moving apace in the (necessary) Lloyds acquisition and if there is genuine interest from a third party, time is running out. Spowart as an ex employee is being meddlesome and is a complete waste of space.

Also I cannot believe the gall of Hornby and his latest consulting contract. The man clearly has no shame.
6

Guga II,

Rockall 06/11/2008 04:23:10
Between Maggie Broon (a.k.a. Toom Tabard) and the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party white-anting the Scottish financial sector, and trying to sell Scotland and the Scottish people down the river, and Hornby advocating the sale of HBOS to Llyods when he has been bought by them for £720,000, We really are being stitched up.

Maggie Broon is quite happy to see the loss of 24,000 jobs in Scotland, just to satisfy his need to do us down, and "to do anything in his power" to keep us in the Unioniost thrall.

I sincerely hope that this Quisling gets his comeuppance today in Glenrothes.
7

donald,

glasgow 06/11/2008 06:05:37
We all know it was a done deal against Scotland from the moment the mortgage scam company took over and stole a Scottish bank and Scottish jobs.
8

Corstorphinery,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 06:46:01
"At a press conference at Holyrood yesterday, MSPs Tavish Scott, Alex Neil and Margo MacDonald claimed the potential rival bids were not being taken seriously."

This phrase says it all. "Potential rival bid" - how could HBOS/Lloyds take anything seriously if the bid has not yet been made?!

Agree completely with comment #7 - if there is nothing on the table and no identity forthcoming then the two parties have no option but to carry on with the merger as it is. End of. Put up or shut up.
9

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 07:00:31
"We all know it was a done deal against Scotland from the moment the mortgage scam company took over and stole a Scottish bank and Scottish jobs."

Oh dear. It never ceases to amaze me how some people claim this is all some anti- Scottish conspiracy. please look at reality and the facts rather than just regurgitating this weary old mantra :

Nobody forced BoS into the merger with Halifax. BoS were only too willing to expand on this basis.

Also, are you saying that the boards of HBOS and lloyds TSB are doing all this just to scupper Scotland.

If the deal is a bad one and not suitable then the shareholders of HBOS are free to reject it but what is the alternative? The latest trading statement from HBOS revealed that they have had to take write-downs of £5.2 billion in just 9 months. There asset base has been crumbling and they are stuffed in terms of liquidity.
10

Ugly George,

06/11/2008 07:03:02
8 Guga 2
I suppose you would rather have seen HBOS go bust. How many jobs would have been lost then?
11

insideout,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 07:27:37
#7,
it might be tiresome to you but as an employee it is critical that we have other options. The Lloyds TSB takeover might be good for shareholders but it will be a disaster for employees, particularly in Scotland.
12

morris,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 07:36:47
11 George
There is no doubt that the Halifax takeover was a decision which Bank of Scotland made ill advisedly (and we all have the benefit of hindsight here of course).
I doubt that anyone disputes that part.
That's a separate issue but I agree it was self inflicted and the start of HBOS demise.That's not what is debated here.If thats not political interference then I am a Dutchman!


To suggest that Brown and Darling have not milked this situation for their own political ends,by doing effectively nothing to help HBOS,for months,when it has been established that a takeover by LLoyds TSB has been discussed (with the government being involved) and government monitoring for probably as long back as eighteen months ago! The situation has been monitored but only in the sense that Brown and Darling knew as much as it was possible to know,that something like this was coming,and RBS were also on shady ground.
Northern Rock merely confirmed what was expected anyway (and was swiftly dealt with).


There is a recession looming without question,and there are problems world wide,but that does not mean that Brown and Darling are clean here,and the other bids have hardly been given any publicity ,and have been dismissed as being incompetent almost.The details of these bids are unclear,but I doubt that anybody is making bids for a laugh!They are clearly serious bids and should be considered,but the government seems hell bent on securing the Lloyds TSB bid in any instance and you have to ask why?The answer would apppear to be the removal of a Scottish institution HQ (and of course many jobs).
This is not conspiracy theory .It has been reported in the Press notably down south to the exclusion of certain Scottish newspapers!

Other bids exist but only Lloyds TSB seems to be acceptable to government and the bail out is conditional upon acceptance of the LLoyds TSB bid.NO OTHER BID QUALIFIES as far as I can see?
It could hardly be clearer George .Gordon Brown and Alas
13

morris,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 07:40:31
14 cont

It could hardly be clearer George .Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling both made it clear that the TSB bid was the only bid government would entertain and that is fact according to governments own Press Releases.If this is not correct then why are government statements consistent with this and confirming this on occasion?You don't have to look at this to know it smells. Brown said it word for word.No Lloyds deal no bail out! That was months ago!
14

Selgovae,

06/11/2008 07:53:28
"HBOS is not a political plaything. This is a real and substantive company"

So "substantive" that it can stand on its own two feet I suppose. If taxpayers are bailing you out, Mr. O'Riordain, you can certainly expect their political representatives to ask some questions.
15

TWC,

Ayrshire 06/11/2008 08:16:02
Another nail in Labour's coffin
16

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 06/11/2008 08:27:17

If Brown and Darling had not brokered the deal with Lloyds and provided funds for the recapitalisation of the banking sector, HBOS would already be bankrupt by now.

It may be that there are other options NOW that the position of HBOS has been stabilised (including Lloyds TSB selling BoS as a separate going concern at a later date and an alternative bid), but a couple of months ago there were only two options:
- Takeover by another bank and Lloyds TSB was the only bank interested and to boot it is a partly Scottish bank,
- Nationalisation a la Northern Rock.
Nationalisation would arguably have been worse for jobs both in Edinburgh and in Yorkshire, because the government as with Northern Rock would have been compelled to sell assets and wind down the bank's activities to recover the taxpayers' money as quickly as possible. The action taken so far is in both Scotland's, England's and the UK's interests.

Second, jobs are being lost in the banking sector (RBS as much as HBOS) because of the banks' own recklessness, not because of a government brokered rescue plan. Scotland cannot avoid this in the short term but it is not being disproportionately badly affected in the UK - England will probably suffer more.
17

bluehead,

edinburgh 06/11/2008 08:34:14
the dirty tricks brigade are out in force ,in full service marching order,you will now be able to smell
politicians when you enter a bank.
18

No1Bob,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 08:47:48
Received my voting papers yesterday

Just voted YES for the Lloyds TSB takeover of the HBOS. In my view this is the best and only option to save HBOS and to save jobs. If this deal does not go through then HBOS fails completely and all jobs will be lost.
19

Ugly George,

06/11/2008 08:53:18
14 morris
You are confusing two separate aspects. The bail-out of HBOS being conditional on a take-over is a result of the fact that it would probably cost £billions more to bail out HBOS as a separate entity. Does the govt not have a duty to get the best deal it can for the taxpayer.

Alastair Darling is on record as saying that any other bid would be treated equally as that of Lloyds. He can hardly do otherwise as the shareholders have the final say and if a better bid does emerge then the shareholders have the option to go for that one. At no stage has he said that the money allocated for recapitalisation of HBOS is not available for an alternative bidder.

The situation is, therfore, not as you described it.
20

Rob,

06/11/2008 08:53:26
Dereliction of duty, rival bids from un-named institutions, information withheld from shareholders, Scottish financier with foreign client ready to swoop in etc etc etc. What utter rubbish. Add to that a bunch of clueless Scottish politicians looking for some populous free publicity criticising the “arrogant presumption being made by some people in Lloyds and HBOS that this is a done deal” What tosh. Doubtless thousands of banks around the world have their slide rules out examining every last detail of what’s in HBOS cupboard of riches just waiting to unlock the priceless assets – but, oh yes, they need to keep it secret, of course they do!! Thousands of others lining up – barbarians at the gate!! Hush hush! Don't show them your purse, Jimmy!!!

It’s all drivel and you have to be retarded to believe one word of it. I'm going with Lloyds - there isn't and won't be an alternative.
21

Snowy Bottles,

06/11/2008 09:24:29
As a point of interest what is the date of the HBOS shareholders ballot on the merger?
22

tomislav,

home 06/11/2008 09:31:11
Scotsman, Given the dire situation that HBOS is even the subject of bids, is it really news to tell us the bosses have failed in their duty, eh I think we know already
23

Buttress,

06/11/2008 09:32:31
23 - as yet unknown!

I note Darling is to speak to the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce.

Event Title
Keynote Dinner with The Chancellor
Speakers
Alistair Darling MP, Chancellor of the Exchequer
Description
At the dawn of a new financial era, with the government stepping in to save the banking giants and a recession heading our way, we have arranged an exclusive dinner with the man aiming to steer team GB through some very turbulent waters, Alistair Darling, Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Date and Time
Thursday 4 December 2008 | 7.00pm - 10.30pm
Venue
EICC, Morrison Street, Edinburgh
Fee
£115.15 (Chamber members and Member guests)
£138.65 (Non-members)

Pass the sick bag and expect Ron Hewitt to come up with some sycophantic comments in this paper.


24

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 09:34:33
23 Snowy Bottles
I think that HBOS shareholders vote on the merger on 12th December.

However LLoyds TSB shareholders vote on the 19th November. Many consider that they are more likely than those of HBOS to reject the deal.
25

Calum10,

06/11/2008 09:39:55
re: "The Scotsman, which has been spearheading a drive for answers about the takeover, revealed last weekend that two other parties were considering a bid for the ailing Edinburgh bank."

Take this statement with a big pinch of salt.

The Scotsman has NOT been campaigning to save HBOS. It has been using HBOS to sell newspapers. That's all it sees on this issue.

Also Jim Murphy delibrately leaked details to the Scotsman of other potential bids in order to undermine these bids.

The facts remain both the Scotsman and Labour ministers are shedding crocodile tears over HBOS.
26

noswod,

Honestas 06/11/2008 09:43:20
Banks gone done deal by Broon and Darling. Any additional bidder would have to have armour ten feet thick to stop deal. There is a fantasic deal here for a counter bidder but the chances of that happening are very low as all of the potential counterbidders are bust or they are Arabs. Maybe a Spainish bank as they were not allowed by their regulators to play Monopoly with their depositiors money. Its ironic that the Spainish who created a massive housing bubble by building two million more houses than Spain needs stopped their banks from being silly boys. It won't stop their banks from losing money, but made sure that they were not dependant on short term wholesale markets for long term mortgages. So its goodbye Scottish banks caused by a very similar cultural and political hubris of over and unrealistic ambition like the early 1700's Scottish economic and bank crash that led to the Union. Sometines you cannot trust teenagers with credit cards.
27

Royc,

London 06/11/2008 10:01:28
The HBOS shareholders and management cannot even consider these rumoured alternative bids unless one of the alleged bidders make a formal statement of interest and due diligence commences. Right now, HBOS has run out of road, Lloyds TSB is the only liferaft in town and the deal will go ahead unless the rival bidders get into the ring rapidly.

Still we get the usual Nat lobbyists here droning on that Scotland is being stitched up by evil forces. The plain facts are: (a) Bank of Scotland, then HBOS, stitched themselves up by some very foolish investments and the chickens have come home to roost, Mr Hornby and (b) the decision about who HBOS sells out to will be made by the HBOS shareholders, as they own the company, not the Government, Lloyds TSB or Bank of England who are third parties.

The conspiracy theories are just made-up Nat stuff for those who don't want to understand the realities of the grim financial position and lack of options facing HBOS.

28

JenJen,

06/11/2008 10:10:29
#9 That's just too simplistic. Halifax's UK lending isn't the sole issue here. It was actually fine. It was HBOS's exposure to the US markets which caused the problems. Further, Bank of Scotland's corporate lending activity was very very shaky in retrospect and played a major part in this crisis.

Let's also remember that just a couple of years ago most of us were spitting tacks at the way we as customers were treated by BOS. Now, with a political slant on it, it's suddenly a beloved national treasure.

Finally, if you think Scottish job losses will be bad - and they will - you might also think for a moment of the small town of Halifax, where entire families and generations will be out of work, not to mention all the smaller businesses, restaurants, charities and so on which rely on Halifax. This is just like a shipyard closing, only with no "soft" jobs to go to.
29

Alan B,

06/11/2008 10:10:47
#Royc

If you actually read the article it is a group of cross bench msp who are complaining. It is also some very senior member of the scottish financial community who are not nats. But do not let your predejuice get in the way of your argument.

The facts are: we do not know all the facts. A deal has been stitched up behind closed doors by Brown and the mgt of the 2 banks. The government have made other alternatives unwelcome only publicly uturning under political pressure.

There are a few different political/economic alternatives. Bouncing into this merger does not seem necessarily like a good option.
30

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/11/2008 10:18:03
#10 Corst

A slight correction there. Any rival bid does not require Lloyds TSB to take it seriously. Only HBOS !
31

Alan B,

06/11/2008 10:20:37
#JenJen

Your analysis seems slanted.

Firstly can you justify

"Bank of Scotland's corporate lending activity was very very shaky in retrospect and played a major part in this crisis."

that remark.

Only the government and the 2 banks know what is really going on so it is very difficult for the lay person to really understand the real problems of the bank.

"Halifax's UK lending isn't the sole issue here. It was actually fine. It was HBOS's exposure to the US markets which caused the problems."

That is abit mixed up. The mortgage lending of HBOS far exceded deposits and hence was financed by the global credit markets. It has little to do with the US markets.

The drying up of the global credit markets meant HBOS could not refinance it loans. As such too much mortgage lending, giving it too much exposure to the credit markets is the generally perceived wisdom of the problems.

Although given the revelations reguarding Nothern Rock and the business practices there, there is probably alot of the true story being buried.

If you are not aware, Nothern Rock put £50 billion of its mortgage lending into an offshore uk childrens charity (the children obviously did not get any money), in order to avoid fsa regulations, capital requirements and tax.

The real question is with NR a public limited company with audited acounts is it feasible that Brown and his new regualatory body the FSA did not know about this practice and were completely incompetent. £50 billion is alot of money to hide.

If as seem likely they did know that opens up another can of worms about corruption etc and the real goings on.
32

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/11/2008 10:22:38
#18 said:

"If Brown and Darling had not brokered the deal with Lloyds and provided funds for the recapitalisation of the banking sector, HBOS would already be bankrupt by now."

Not sure I can agree with that statement.

First, the LTSB takeover has not yet occurred and therefore cannot yet have provided any financial rescue of HBOS (which, last time I checked was still trading in its own right).

Second, exactly what funds have been put into HBOS so far?
33

JenJen,

06/11/2008 10:30:00
#34
You've answered your own question when you say "The mortgage lending of HBOS far exceded deposits ... " - Halifax's (as in the old BS) lending was, essentially, OK, in that credit assets covered more than 70% of debits, putting it crudely. What Halifax did not do was borrow short and lend long.

It was the strategy of the group of HBOS which led to that practise by the Halifax consumer and the BOS corporate brands, following the merger - and it has everything to do with the US markets.
34

MacMhuirich,

Ljubljana 06/11/2008 10:36:06
#33

HBOS could not survive on its existing capital and with it existing liquidity problems.

The prospect of a recapitalisation through Lloyds TSB and the government has restored/improved confidence in the bank, preventing a run on the bank and a collapse in itsshare price (worse than has already happened), while the general bailout has restored/inmproved confidence in the banking sector as a whole. In the meantime, before this (or another) takeover takes place, the Bank of England is pumping money in the money markets and guaranteeing inter-bank lending.
35

Alan B,

06/11/2008 10:40:43
#36 JenJen

Sorry do not follow you.

Firstly you stated

"Bank of Scotland's corporate lending activity was very very shaky in retrospect and played a major part in this crisis."

you have failed to justify that in any way.

The problem with HBOS as much as we know is too much mortgage lending.

Halifax had transformed itself from a building society into a bank long before the merger (takeover of BOS).

The combined bank now HBOS expanded it mortgage lending greatly. Technically it was the halifax mortage side that expanded greatly but that really is irrelevent.

What do you mean by US markets? Are you talking about the US housing market or are you confusing that with the global credit markets.

Hornby the head of halifax and then with the merger HBOS persued to high growth strategy based on market share of the mortgage market. Probably the same tactic he persued when running retail chains in his previous roles.

This may have been ok if it was not for the drying up of the global credit markets. But his over dependency on the credit markets to finance mortages lead apparently to the problems.

However as I said the government have not been open with what the real picture is and that has left other parties and financial analysts to guess about the true picture.
36

Alan B,

06/11/2008 10:46:25
#MacMhuirich

The problem was do not know the true state of HBOS and hence are really having to rely on the trust of the UK government. Which because of a variety of thing many would not trust labour and brown.

If the problem with hbos is one where its business model was to finance a large degree of mortgages through the credit markets. And these markets have now dried up. And hbos cannot now refinance its inter banks loans.

If that is the case and the government were to lend hbos the money raised by the interbank loans to cover the loans that need refinanced. And do so on a commercial basis so there is no cost to the tax payer. Then that should be enough.

The fact that lloyds which is not in itself in a position to have enough liquidity to bail out halifax and may even need money itself, means that it is difficult to see the commercial argument for this merger.
37

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 06/11/2008 10:47:06
#37 Sorry but that is speculation. Promises of takeover and promises of re-capitalisation may have restored confidence or not. You were very clear in your previous post:

"If Brown and Darling had not brokered the deal with Lloyds and provided funds for the recapitalisation of the banking sector, HBOS would already be bankrupt by now."

Now you appear to be softening the above bold statement to:

"The prospect of a recapitalisation through Lloyds TSB and the government has restored/improved confidence"

So is this an issue of confidence or capital?
38

porker!,

stirling 06/11/2008 10:56:46
All our manufacturing gone now HBOS,RBS next?
Still there will always be a Bank of England.
Funny that.
39

JenJen,

06/11/2008 10:57:32
#38 - the point I am making is that Bank of Scotland's corporate loan book is in exactly the same mess as Halifax's mortgage book, and for the same reasons. So the poster above who believes this is all down to the Halifax's lending strategy and not the sainted Bank of Scotland is incorrect. Even if in some way the SBOS could be separated from Halifax and gloriously repatriated, it would bring a whole heap of toxic debt with it.

The problem's not "too much mortgage lending" at all - it's too much lending which is not backed up by sound onshore credit holdings.

I am well aware of Mr. Hornby's activities thanks.

I'm simply using "US markets" as shorthand because as we all know, the global credit markets have become stagnant due to the failure of major companies which invested in subprime US housing.
40

Alan B,

06/11/2008 11:37:14
#JenJen

Do you have any figures to justify that the BOS corporate debt is toxic and comparative figures for the quantity of corporate debt to mortgage debt and how that compares to the amount held in deposits. What are your percentages estimates of toxic debt both corporate and mortgage.

As a I see it the problems of toxic debt held by HBOS were not significant in the liquidity problems of HBOS. The problems were one of not being able to refinance their inter banks loans. Although perceptions of toxic debt in the future could have a little to do with that.

The toxic debt issue as i see it will only be fully known depending on the depth of any recession. Corporate loans will be toxic if companies start going to the wall. Mortgage loans will and are toxic as repossessions occur where the loans are more than can be recouped by repoccessing and selling on the property.

"Halifax's lending strategy and not the sainted Bank of Scotland is incorrect"

That is a bit of a weird thing to say. BOS was fine before the takeover/merger. It was Hornby and the halifax mgt would ran the roost post merger than lead to the problems. As such it is bizzarre to blame an independent BOS and its mgt for the failure of the halifax mgt which ran the show for the last few yrs and massively grew the banks exposure to credit. Not that i think it really matters. As the issue is more about how to sort out the problem.
41

Vox Cavalier,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 12:16:16
Given that shareholder power (not national interest) is paramount in a company like HBOS, I trust that at least one HBOS shareholder is considering US-style legal action against the Board and executives who allegedly mismanaged the bank's affairs? Should any US shareholder (individual or institutional) of HBOS shares feel aggrieved, are we likely to again see the extradition (a la NatWest Three) to the US of individuals to face charges?
42

New Town Resident,

06/11/2008 12:18:16
~43. Alan B. I agree with JenJen, especially her very valid comment that people in Halifax don't have the wide range of alternative job opportunities that those in Edinburgh have, many of which are of course funded by the taxpayer.

Sorry about a big cut and paste, but please read the article below published in the Obsever in July 2008 about the BOS 109 billion corporate lending run from Edinburgh. Note also that this article doesn't mention the big loan to the Haweii golf course developer that has now dragged down Loch Lomond either. It is easy to be wise after the event isn't it - the last paragraph in the article is only 3 months old!

Nick Mathiason The Observer, Sunday June 29 2008 Article historyShareholders in HBOS, Britain's biggest mortgage lender, may have voted in favour of a £4bn emergency rights issue but the bank is far from out of the financial woods yet. HBOS is one of the most active investors in housebuilding and property companies, backing entrepreneurs like Scottish tycoon Sir Tom Hunter, the Indian-born Reuben brothers and serial entrepreneur Nick Leslau. It is a tactic that has raised eyebrows among some analysts, who are beginning to question the wisdom of such an aggressive investment policy at a time when land values are falling.

The driving force behind these deals at HBOS is Peter Cummings, its shy deputy chief executive, described variously as smart, decent, modest and straightforward.

Cummings, who is in charge of a £109bn loan book, has lent £40bn to construction and real estate companies, of which £3bn has gone to housebuilders. It has also amassed a £4bn unlisted equity portfolio, with many of the stakes in housebuilders and other property-related companies.

HBOS has bankrolled the acquisition of a slew of companies including McCarthy & Stone, Crest Nicholson, Countryside Properties and Miller Properties, Britain's biggest private housebuilder. It is also a shareholder in businesses owned by veteran property tycoon Sir St
43

New Town Resident,

06/11/2008 12:19:42
45 cont. It is also a shareholder in businesses owned by veteran property tycoon Sir Stuart Lipton.

Backers of McCarthy & Stone say the retirement home business is hoping to refinance its debt after HBOS led a £1.1bn buyout 21 months ago. Its ambitious expansion plans are on hold as property values plummet. Crest Nicholson is also having a tough time. It was loaded up with debt having left the stock market in a £715m privatisation 16 months ago. This month HBOS wrote down the value of its loans in the housebuilding sector by £100m. Some fear that figure could grow.

Cummings, a 52-year-old Glaswegian, made his name backing the audacious deals that have propelled Sir Philip Green. And his dealings with land companies and housebuilders have yielded huge profits during the 15-year bull market in property. Last year his division contributed £2.3bn to HBOS profits, more than the personal banking side. His pay soared to £2.6m, overtaking his chief executive, Andy Hornby.

But now the property market has come to a shuddering end and the City is taking an increasingly bearish view. Two hedge funds revealed significant 'short' positions in HBOS last week under new disclosure rules imposed by the Financial Services Authority watchdog.

Despite current difficulties, bank insiders have the utmost confidence in Cummings. They say that far from overcommitting to property, HBOS's exposure to housebuilding is in line with others and that it is alone among UK banks in giving investors precise information as its involvement.

The bank itself believes that housebuilding has 'intrinsic value' and that it is 'in the sector for the long term'. 'We make no apologies that we are an asset-backed lender. We lend to companies whose businesses model we know and understand,' said a spokesman. HBOS says that in 2001 its corporate lending contributed 19 per cent to profits. Last year it was 40 per cent. In that time profits have leapt by 150 per cent. It added that two thirds of its
44

New Town Resident,

06/11/2008 12:21:00
45 final part, sorry for such a long paste, but worth it?

The bank itself believes that housebuilding has 'intrinsic value' and that it is 'in the sector for the long term'. 'We make no apologies that we are an asset-backed lender. We lend to companies whose businesses model we know and understand,' said a spokesman. HBOS says that in 2001 its corporate lending contributed 19 per cent to profits. Last year it was 40 per cent. In that time profits have leapt by 150 per cent. It added that two thirds of its entire loan book is made of mortgages. Though some may argue that this presents a risk, HBOS believes that this form of lending is more secure than small businesses and credit cards.

A Bank of Scotland stalwart prior to its merger with the Halifax, Cummings prided himself on providing loans to housebuilders and property investors regardless of economic conditions. In the past year, while more cautious bankers switched off the lending tap, the HBOS corporate loans chief continued to invest in entrepreneurs.

In February, Cummings said: 'Some people look as though they are losing their nerve - beginning to panic even - in today's testing real estate environment. Not us.'

Some argue that Cummings and his bank are in denial but its long-term vision may yet prove the doubters wrong.
45

Ugly George,

06/11/2008 12:25:50
43 Alan B
In their trading statement issued the other day HBOS revealed that they had to make total write-downs of £5.2 billion for the first nine months of the year. Of this amount £1.7bn was from the corporate banking division so it is pretty evident that the whole group is in a pretty bad way.
46

TA1,

Perth 06/11/2008 12:33:02
"But a Lloyds TSB spokesman said yesterday it had not seen any concrete detail.

"We are absolutely focused on the deal on the table," he said."

Just why would Lloyds TSB expect to see details of any proposal? Surely it is a matter for HBoS? And who is the "we" who are focused on the deal on the table? Lloyds and the westminster government?
47

Alan B,

06/11/2008 12:35:11
#New Town Resident

I agree those based in Halifax will be badly hit and have not disputed or agrued with that statement.

I just asked Jen to justify the remark about corporate lending as i have no idea what the exposure is. Despite making the initial statement she has not done so.

Your post is very interesting and informative though.

Jen's initial comment

"Halifax's UK lending isn't the sole issue here. It was actually fine."

was wrong. Huge mortgage lending financed by the credit markets is a significant part of the problem. She has then since backtracked to say that it was fine when it was a building society. Which no-one would dispute.


Personally i do not know the best way out but think that alot depends on the true position. The government are not exactly being open about the problem but saying trust us we know best.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2463296.0.wish_you_were_here.php

Have a look at the link and tell me what you think. To me it say alot.

In essense it says that Nothern Rock off shored £50 billion worth of mortage debt to a uk childrens charity (with the children not getting anything obviously), in order to avoid tax, fsa regulations and capital requirements.

I think it is inconceivable Brown and his fsa regulatory body did not know about a public limited bank with audited accounts carrying out this type of practice. According to the article it is wide spead by banks. It also reported the government is trying to bury the story.



48

Ugly George,

06/11/2008 12:37:40
43 Alan B

PS Extract from buiness daily :
"The company posted losses of £1,8bn on treasury assets, £150m on Icelandic banks and provisions for bad loans of £1,7bn in the corporate division in the first nine months of this year. HBOS also posted a charge of £1,2bn for bad loans in its consumer division."

Lloyds TSB say that they have planned for total HBOS write-downs of £10bn for the full year.
49

Luke Skywalker,

United Kingdom 06/11/2008 12:38:47
To all those who are complaining about the loss of the Bank of Scotland I ask why you didn't buy lots of share years ago so that you had a say in any future decision?
50

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 12:45:19
Alan B
If you look at the figures I quoted from Business Daily im post 51 it is clear that the corporate division (which was a BoS speciality) is also in a bad way so I don't think it is just a matter of the Halifax mortgage side being the problem.

To get some perspective on this the total write-downs for LLoyds TSB were only £230 million. The relative strengths of HBOS and LTSB are pretty clear.
51

Alan B,

06/11/2008 12:45:48
#Ugly George

I am not disputing the bank is not in a bad way.

I was disputing #Jen's comments

"Halifax's UK lending isn't the sole issue here. It was actually fine. It was HBOS's exposure to the US markets which caused the problems. Further, Bank of Scotland's corporate lending activity was very very shaky in retrospect and played a major part in this crisis. "

The statement clearly says that halifaxs lending is "fine" ie the problem is not the mortgage lending. She has changed that tack after challenged.

Her statement about "HBOS's exposure to the US markets" was also unclear and she later said it was short hand for US sub prime mortage lending.

While I know the US sub prime mortage lending caused the problems I am not aware of any major direct exposure of HBOS to that sub prime mortgages.

While it maybe true she has not stated what that exposure is.

I am more aware that HBOS problems are more directly related to the failures of the global credit markets.

"In their trading statement issued the other day HBOS revealed that they had to make total write-downs of £5.2 billion for the first nine months of the year. Of this amount £1.7bn was from the corporate banking division so it is pretty evident that the whole group is in a pretty bad way."

£1.7bn is not alot for a bank of its size. There is a difference as you know with accounting practises of righting down assets becuase of changing business conditions and actually going bust.

The question is what is actually making the bank go bust. From my limited knowledge i understand it to be too much exposure to the failed credit market and the inability to refinance these loans.
52

Alan B,

06/11/2008 12:49:49
#53 Ugly George

There is not dispute that Lloyds is in far better health that HBOS.

The only think I am not clear about is given that Lloyds standing alone is meant to need some capital injection but could like Barclays avoid government money, how does Lloyds then have the money to bail out HBOS. There is something missing. Unless it is not all about inter bank lending.
53

Alan B,

06/11/2008 12:52:58
#Ugly George

What do you make of the Sunday Heralds exposure regarding the Nothern Rock crisis.

http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2463296.0.wish_you_were_here.php

"In a real sense, this use of tax havens is what turned the sub-prime mess into the great banking crash of 2008, Here's how it works. Take Northern Rock. When the government nationalised the delinquent mortgage bank last year it discovered, to its horror, that the Rock didn't actually own most of its mortgages - it had sold £50 billion of them to a structured investment vehicle (SIV) called Granite, based in Jersey. Granite was registered as benefiting a charity for children with Down's Syndrome in the northeast of England. What generosity! Except that the children never saw a penny - it was all an exercise in financial engineering.

The Rock had "sold" its mortgages to itself in the form of this new company-come-charitable trust. Through legal chicanery it was able to use this SIV to conduct all sorts of financial activities without these appearing on the formal balance sheet of Northern Rock.

Basing these special-purpose vehicles off shore not only means they are able to avoid UK tax, they can also ignore UK banking regulations and capital requirements. This allows them to trade in all manner of derivatives financed by cheap credit on the wholesale money markets - activities which would be illegal under UK jurisdiction.

Only when Northern Rock went bust did any of this emerge, and the government quickly buried the information again for fear of what might happen if voters knew that public money was (and still is) being used to finance systematic tax avoidance and irresponsible lending.

All the big banks have been playing the same game to varying degrees: setting up offshore casinos in which to bet on complex derivatives free of any banking regulations. The $2 trillion hedge fund industry - now collapsing - was built on this offshore strategy, which allowed investo
54

Alan B,

06/11/2008 12:53:40
.. investors to take staggering risks on derivatives trades working in tandem with banks and pension funds in a world of unregulated finance called the shadow banking system."
55

cabrach loon,

inverness 06/11/2008 12:58:50
The playing field has changed massively since the LLoyds takeover was first proposed in indecent haste. Since then the nugov soviet has been party to bank bailouts and HBOS should now receive this same help freely and independently rather than be forced to become a lesser pasrt of Lloyds.

Why was Northern Rock given special treatment. Could it be that they it was based in a strong nulab area of England rather than Scotland?

As it presently stands there is a bad smell about it especially when there is a lack of openness or fair play.

I wonder who will give directorships to Brown and Darling when they are booted out after the next elections?
56

Alan B,

06/11/2008 13:04:07
#51 Ugly George

Do you think the core problem for HBOS is

- inability to refinance its inter bank lending to cover its mortage and corporate lending

or

- that the too much of the mortgage and corporate lending is toxic.

I realise it will be abit of both but banks have made loses before, normally during recessions. This is differnt this is banks failing before we go into a recession. As such what is the core thing that is bankrupting the banks without a bail out.

Do you have figures for total:
-corporate lending
-mortgage and other consumer lending
-total deposits
57

Alan B,

06/11/2008 13:07:24
#cabrach loon

I think that Brown allowed £50 billion of Nothern Rock mortage lending to be transferred to an off shore charity for children with Down's Syndrome in the northeast of England (children getting nothing) to avoid tax, capital requirements and fsa regulations may have something to do with it.
58

Calvinist,

06/11/2008 13:36:41
Mr Gemmell said that Scots should not get misty-eyed about the loss of the Bank of Scotland "

No they should be furious at the crooks who ran this organization. Or is it OK if the crooks are Scottish crooks?

59

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/11/2008 13:42:09
Can anyone actually outline in detail any alternative bid?

I've looked but can't find anything more than the hot air and bluster eminating from Mssrs Neil and Scott.

Does anyone know if the so-called alternatives have anything substantive about them?

Until there is something more concrete then the LTSB bid is the only bid and HBOS shareholders will have to choose to accept or reject it.
60

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

06/11/2008 13:45:15
#51 Those figures indicate that HBOS's problems are not just to do with mortgages but much are much broader and deeper than many first thought.

If I were an LTSB shareholder I'd be having second thoughts about taking over this basket-case of a financial institution.
61

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/11/2008 14:01:41
Private Eye Quote of the Year

"The Scottish banks are amongst the most stable financial institutions in the world"

Alex Salmond February 2008

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7224987.stm

Ooops.

He was obviously a top economist.
62

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/11/2008 14:08:43
Even Salmond's own economic advisor thinks his core policy is flawed.

"Alex Salmond was dealt a double blow last night after a new study suggested an independent Scotland would be almost £1 billion in debt and one of his own economic advisers warned of the “dire” consequences of separation."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4969318.ece
63

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/11/2008 14:12:35
Professor John Kay, a member of the first minister’s council of economic advisers, said that the economic consequences of Scotland going it alone could be disastrous.

Pointing to the impact of the credit crunch on Ireland, Norway and Iceland, described by Salmond in the past as an “arc of prosperity” of which an independent Scotland could be part, he said: “It’s much easier for small countries to mess up in times of economic instability. Take Iceland . . . it is the best poster-child for small countries that can’t go it alone.”

Kay, a visiting professor at the London School of Economics, said an independent Scotland could not have bailed out the Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS, as Gordon Brown had.

“Scotland as an independent monetary entity probably wouldn’t have been big enough to bail out either HBOS, RBS or both,” he said. “If Scotland declared itself an independent country tomorrow its finances would look pretty dire.”

64

Rufus T. Firefly,

06/11/2008 14:19:56
Five months ago when the price of oil soared to $120 (£70) a barrel, Grant Thornton, the leading city accountancy firm, calculated that Scotland would have a budget surplus of £4.4 billion, making it one of the wealthiest small countries in the world.

Using the Grant Thornton model, a new analysis by The Sunday Times, based on the price of oil falling to about $75 a barrel last week, found Scotland would be in the red.

The findings underline how the economic prospects of an independent Scotland depend on volatile oil prices, which hit a 14-month low last week as the economic downturn cut global demand.

The updated findings are a serious blow to the SNP, which cited Grant Thornton’s previous calculation last week as evidence that Scots would be better off under independence.
65

thistle do,

here n' there 06/11/2008 14:30:22
Why would you want HBOS bosses to look for other deals? Was it not them that run the bank nearly into the ground. Every one of the directors should be fired, they did not carry out their governance duty. Go now.
66

Alan B,

06/11/2008 14:41:38
#The Federalist

"If I were an LTSB shareholder I'd be having second thoughts about taking over this basket-case of a financial institution"

I agree I think LTSB would be mad to get into bed with HBOS unless there is more behind the scenes. Why would Lloyds well known conservative mgt be willing to enter a high rish arrangement.

67

SimonHurrll,

South 06/11/2008 16:08:37
A lot of very intereswting comments thrown around in these responses.
In summary we glean:
Are there any other culpable bids? Seems not!
If there aren't what happened to the Grand Merger postulated between HBOS and RBS?
Oh there wasn't one because RBS were busily fudging their own figures ro write down all their assets as quickly as possible so that they would appear to be available for a Government bail out: sounds familiar!
No doubt the CEO and Bank Chiefs at HBOS here will be given their £3million plus golden handshake (laighing themselves silly) at the good byes after December!
Now watch the demise of the Clydesdale Bank over the next weeks! I noticed that people were rapidlt pulling their money out of this rather quckly yesterday. Do the people know something here that we all already knew?
68

Class On Grass,

On the ledge behind you, shoving 06/11/2008 16:27:20

This is all due to dodgy mortgage loans in USA not being repaid? (I assume the majority are still paying off, so why the panic) If so, then the bank has now got a very large property portfolio in USA - Isnt that what happens when folk default on mortgages?
Or am I just too stooopid (yes, ok)...
I got a note from my bank offering financial advice. They're in so much brown stuff, that I had to laugh.
Oh the irony.
69

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 06/11/2008 17:15:17
Are Scottish politicians really that thick? I suppose they must be, most of them are in London screwing it all up for the rst of us. Then again I have to admit we aren't short of a few eejut politicians in Wales. Perhaps my friend Mike is right, you have to be off your head to consider a career in politics in the first place, or as bent as a nine bob note, did the "Bank of Scotland" print those too?
70

tattiebogle,

Edinburgh 06/11/2008 18:47:50
The HBOS Directors are negligent in their duties. They have not explored or recommended the other options so how can they claim Lloyds (with Scottish TSB)is the best solution. It is the worst solution, that is without doubt. Another Scottish Bank goes under the control of England with a poorer Scotland as a result. Question: is G B pushing this agenda to give SNP a bl--dy nose and weaken their growing popularity. Scotsman fighting Scotsman again. History of UK is littered with this history, and the English divide and conquer.
Now to make myself clear, SNP are doing a better job than their predecessors, but that does not mean that I and Scots want seperation. 2/3rds want a united Country. And a historical HBOS is a pawn in the game with faceless, useless Directors. Sack them, start a Scottish protest; thats when Scots are strongest historically. And hang G.B. from the yardarm in total shame.
71

Martyk,

06/11/2008 20:11:11
Who are the mysterey bidders?
72

Robbierunciman,

Romney Marsh 06/11/2008 22:11:20
the 'rival' bidders should put up or shut up, they have had enough time. MSPs should perhaps spend their time more productively on matters they understand and have some influence over, like wondering why the Scottish 'government' is allowing an Ameican millionaire to build a pointless golf course on sand dunes in Aberdeenshire.
73

Missbehave (Princess Fiona),

15/11/2008 07:08:29
I Think you scotts need to remember your banks are broke, when you ask why labour want to protect jobs in England, what have Scotland done to protect the jobs?

Halifax came up here with a health balance sheet, it left after following HBOS AND BREAKING EVERY BUILDING SOCIETY IN THE UK

As bankers Scotland are a disaster.

 

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