Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 5th July 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Labour MSPs force Wendy into another U-turn on referendum



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 14 May 2008
WENDY Alexander's position as leader of the Scottish Labour Party was last night described as "impossible and untenable" after she was forced into yet another U-turn by her fellow MSPs.



In the latest extraordinary twist to the referendum saga, MSPs at a meeting of members of the Scottish Parliament's Labour group yesterday ditched Ms Alexander's weekend pledge that the party would not stand in the way of a referendum bill, instead either voting for it or abstaining.

It also reversed the position outlined by Duncan McNeil, the group chairman, last week when he said the MSPs would "not vote down any referendum bill that comes before this parliament".

The latest U-turn left the party in an almost identical position to ten days ago, before Ms Alexander first said she would support a referendum.

It led the Tories to compare Labour's policy to an infamous storyline in the TV soap Dallas, in which the death of a leading character was explained away as a dream.

Outlining the MSPs' new position, Mr McNeil said it was impossible to make any commitment to a bill which would not be introduced for another two years as the SNP did not want to put forward a referendum bill until 2010.

He confirmed that, contrary to suggestions made last week, Labour would not try to force the SNP's hand to bring forward a referendum bill early.

Mr McNeil added: "We reserve the right to scrutinise any bill that comes before this parliament."

A spokesman for Ms Alexander later said: "It all depends on the wording and the timescale of the bill."

And he insisted that Labour still supported a referendum on independence "in principle".

The Scotsman understands that the latest change of position came because many Labour MSPs were worried by a position which they saw as a blank cheque for the SNP, although Ms Alexander has always insisted she was not offering one to the Nationalists.

She had also told Labour MSPs last Tuesday that she had the support of the Prime Minister, an assertion she repeated in a television interview, but one which Mr Brown made clear was untrue in the Commons last Wednesday during Prime Minister's Questions.

Labour MSPs who are opposed to any referendum have now won a position allowing the party to vote against one, which is now the most likely outcome.

The latest shift was last night welcomed at Westminster, where Labour ministers had been holding their heads in despair at the issue.

A senior Westminster source said: "This is a huge relief. We haven't leaned on the MSPs to come to this position, they seem to have come to their senses by themselves.

"This is a much more sensible position than the one held before."

Malcolm Chisholm MSP, who was yesterday named the group's constitutional affairs spokesman, last night moved to defend the party's new position.

He said: "The SNP have turned down the chance to end the uncertainty facing Scotland and now will be at the mercy of Labour's parliamentary tactics."

However, David McLetchie, the chief whip of the Scottish Conservatives, was quick to compare Labour's latest moves to the much-maligned Dallas plot.

He said: "Whereas Pam woke up to find Bobby was still alive, the same cannot now be said of Scottish Labour as a credible opposition in this parliament."

Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, added:

"Wendy Alexander has been utterly humiliated by the Labour group, who have effectively U-turned on her farcical U-turn. 'Bring it on' has been brought down, and Labour must now be very close to bringing Wendy Alexander down as their Holyrood leader.

"Her position is now impossible and completely untenable."

Nicol Stephen, leader of the Scottish Lib Dems, admitted he was bewildered by Labour's latest move.

He added: "Anyone trying to keep pace with Labour's ever-changing position would be driven to dizziness."


The full article contains 657 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 May 2008 11:40 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

13/05/2008 23:33:51

Wendy Alexander.

Resignation within 10 days.

Going,,,,, Going,,,,,
2

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 14/05/2008 00:04:35
Well we've got the panto, so I guess next up will be Scottish Labour, 'the musical'

3

Sanny,

14/05/2008 00:06:02
Hang about Angus - Wendy's the SNP's Exorcet missile to be used against the SLAB!!
Let's give the wee lassie some support - She's doing a wonderful job!
4

karinxxx,

14/05/2008 00:10:03
ah well guess who are all going to lose their seats at the next election.
5

,

14/05/2008 00:16:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

,

14/05/2008 00:18:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/05/2008 00:21:22

Number 1 gone
8

,

14/05/2008 00:22:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/05/2008 00:23:55
The photo looks like she is praying for some divine intervention from Hamish Macdonnell, the Scotsman journalist who cannot bring himself to report on this.

Wonder why. Wonder why Wendy can only bring down the lightweights?

What I would also say is that if you shout "bring it on" you also have to bring it off. Eh no, Wendy.

Let us raise a toast to Wendy.

"Wendy, you're toast" Eh no, Hamish?

10

Senga Jean,

14/05/2008 00:28:27
If Wendy goes who could replace her?. If Wendy did not exist we would have to invent her. Her reason for being is to divert attention from Brown's and Darling's fiscal prudence.
11

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/05/2008 00:28:55
Like who Dillon Two Little Caterpillers the Marx Brothers and the Flat Earth Society .

Mind you all are more credible than the Labour party
12

Ciderman 542000,

Forres 14/05/2008 00:33:45
Dillon marks 4, # 5

Usually, bad people ascribe to others the failings that they themselves demonstrate.
13

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/05/2008 00:35:51
Now, what was all this excretum tauri about calling the SNP's bluff?

The SNP were not bluffing - Wendy was and very shortly Wendy will be a was.
14

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 14/05/2008 00:35:58
This eejit is not just making Labour like a laughing stock, she is now making Scotland a laughing stock.

She has not just undermined Gordon Brown, she has undermined the Scottish Parliament.

She has not only let herself down, she has let down those she represents in the good town of Paisley.

I don't care if there's no-one to take her place. Annabel and Nicol have been a more credible opposition up to now. I'm sure Scottish Labour can take some time out to think about a new leader. It won't affect Parliamentary proceedings.

But she must go NOW.
15

,

14/05/2008 00:39:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

,

14/05/2008 00:39:23
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

Al Ford,

Insch 14/05/2008 00:45:05
Having now lost count of the number of U-turns that there have been or may have been in Scottish Labour's policy, if it is a policy, on an independence referendum, I can't help thinking that that party has lost a little credibility. I say a little credibility because it seems to me that it was only a little credibility that it had left before this whole fiasco burst upon the scene.

Congratulations to Ms Alexander for completing the transformation of Scottish Labour from a serious political force into a hilarious political farce.

FMQs will be absolutely unmissable this week.
18

I'm Not a Madam, I'm A Concierge!,

Rutherglen 14/05/2008 00:45:55
"Malcolm Chisholm MSP, ..... said: "The SNP have turned down the chance to end the uncertainty facing Scotland and now will be at the mercy of Labour's parliamentary tactics."

TACTICS? TACTICS?? God Almighty!

If these are the same tactics displayed over the past few days then I don't think the SNP have anything to fear.

19

,

14/05/2008 00:49:15
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/05/2008 00:49:18
If you met Wendy in the pub how many pints before you would ask her back to your place ( Non political and nothing to do with this thread )

I reckon 15 so Labour should get on the case about binge drinking
21

Four Sea Itchy,

14/05/2008 00:50:22
Such a cunning plan.

You could pin a tail on it and call it a fox!
22

,

14/05/2008 00:50:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
23

I'm Not a Madam, I'm A Concierge!,

Rutherglen 14/05/2008 00:51:29
#16 Wardog

Just a minor detail - I thought the idea of Laurel and Hardy was that one of them WASN'T fat?

24

,

14/05/2008 00:54:16
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

I'm Not a Madam, I'm A Concierge!,

Rutherglen 14/05/2008 00:55:42
#22

But if you DIDN'T pin a tail on it - what would be left showing? Yes, the ar.se - which just about sums up this "cunning plan" from Labour
26

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/05/2008 00:59:20
slab internal. Outcome of the inquiry into all the u turns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYBx5_p8r_o
27

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 14/05/2008 00:59:38

Forgive my last comment about Alcoholic consumption and Wendy .

But since the days of John Major has there ever been such a lame duck political leader Gordon Brown excepted of course
28

Jimbo2,

14/05/2008 01:05:41
Unlike the Scotsman, the Herald are banning all comments on Wendy & CO.

The one good thing that has come out of all this is that Wendy and her Labour cohorts in Scotland have managed to get the whole country talking about independence and the referendum.

Now we really do have a national conversation courtesy of the very people who are against it.
29

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 14/05/2008 01:06:05
27-U turn. Here is the real slab story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYBx5_p8r_o
30

Four Sea Itchy,

14/05/2008 01:06:36
You are being watched!

By a blog!

Destroy this blog!

http://tinyurl.com/5bfkja
31

Jimbo2,

14/05/2008 01:15:39
Malcolm Chisholm MSP, said: "The SNP have turned down the chance to end the uncertainty facing Scotland and now will be at the mercy of Labour's parliamentary tactics."

The whole country must have gone into kinks at that statement. Half of the Labour Party probably think a tactic is a small mint.
32

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 14/05/2008 01:27:33
Awe come on Guys and Galls, we cannot afford to have Wendy leave us now, what else are we going to read about?? This whole mess has livened up what is normally a boring subject, but now however the Labour Party,the ones who did not want the Scottish People to have a say in their Constitutionl future, have now set the pace towards INDEPENDENCE. In their own words; BRING IT ON!!!!!!
33

Isonomia,

Lenzie 14/05/2008 01:38:56
It just shows the mainstay contempt for the voter that they simply won't let us vote on separation.

What right have these people to deny the Scottish people a vote ... it is our country not theirs, and I say that as someone who would vote against separation!
34

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 14/05/2008 01:41:33
Are there any Labour voters left out there ?

If so do you agree with Wendy ?

On what day last week did you agree with her ? Was it before or after she had her daily U turn ?
35

Edward,

14/05/2008 01:46:22
Scottish Labour now back to what there told to do by Gordon Brown and Westminster Labour
In doing so even adopting Brown's characteristic re write of history!
'A senior Westminster source said: "This is a huge relief. We haven't leaned on the MSPs to come to this position, they seem to have come to their senses by themselves' ah right!
If Labour had any decency (which they dont have) they would ALL resign, not just Wendy Alexander
36

Jwil,

14/05/2008 01:55:45
As Wardog pointed out earlier at #15, it was reported today that a professor who knows about these matters, said that the only logical (or perhaps legitimate) question for a refendum was the one that appears in the SNP conversation document; i.e one which asks the Scottish people if they want the Scottish Government to start negotiations with Westminster on separation from the UK (or not). Why hasn't Glen Campbell or Gordon Brewer asked the Labour party spokesperson if the Labour party agree with this form of the question? It seems an obvious thing to ask them. Labour keep saying they will decide when the question comes up. But surely they would have some idea if they could agree to this (or not)?


37

Guga II,

Rockall 14/05/2008 02:07:18
So, after racing around more U bends than could be found in a badly designed toilet block, the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) are back where they started.

The Mouth of the South has been brought to heel, and she and her party will, when London shouts sh1t, jump on the shovel. What a pathetic mob they really are.
38

innesm,

Austin, Texas 14/05/2008 03:08:15
Politicians beware of "Bring it on!" bravado. Reference the tragic consequences of George W. Bush's "Bring them on" taunt of Iraqi insurgents. Wendy, know thine enemy before you swagger again on the political stage.
39

williamx,

Delta 14/05/2008 03:48:22
A senior Westminster source said: "This is a huge relief. We haven't leaned on the MSPs to come to this position, they seem to have come to their senses by themselves.

No? I wonder who bought them. I like the Westminster phrase "they seem to have come to their senses by themselves". Sort of a lunatic fringe term applied to the Scottish Labour MPs To bad they don't have the guts to stand up for their own principles. I wonder when asked to "jump" whether they ask how high or merely take off vertically like human jump jets
40

Richardinho,

14/05/2008 05:09:31
someone must have stuck the Labour party in a barrel and told them to stand in the corner!
41

Richardinho,

14/05/2008 05:12:23
Wendy Alexander will have to resign now. Her party has now fatally undermined her authority.
She's really undermined her reputation though for 'intelligence'.
42

scottish person,

Paisley 14/05/2008 05:43:59

He said: "The SNP have turned down the chance to end the uncertainty facing Scotland and now will be at the mercy of Labour's parliamentary tactics."
LOL, Tactics?
This is the woman who helped Terry Kelly,s daughter in to politics. Neither of them can count to ten without stopping. She is an alleged representative of Paisley, she and her party destroyed Paisley, and patted themselves on the back for doing it.
43

Richardinho,

14/05/2008 06:27:34
#37 Good point. The obvious question for a referendum should be one that is as neutral as possible. So do the labour party favour a question that is less than neutral?
44

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 14/05/2008 06:53:45
Any day now, Wendy will be on telly letting us know that she has decided to leave her post as the Head Numpty to focus on her family.

Its got nothing to do with her being a halfwit and liar, so dont any of you lot say that. Imagine being married to her and getting dragged into the shops.

Well dear, what exactly is your favourite Armani suit?. Oh you like that one, okay theres the money now go and pay for it. What did you say?. You never said you liked that one?. Fair enough, go and pick another one. "Now are you very sure thats the one you want?" Okay then hen away and pay for it out of the money I gave you. What do you mean I didnt give you the money five minutes ago. What do you mean I owe you the money. What do you mean you only come out to buy milk.

Yes it isnt easy being a Nat and Mr. Wendy.

See ya Wendy, dont let the door hit you in the erky as you go.
45

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 14/05/2008 07:04:39
I fear for Scotland if she is ever by some utter miracle Scotland's FM.

Mind you I would fear for Scotland if Liebour are EVER holding the reins of power again.

We need to be taking charge of our OWN affairs, what's so wrong with that?!
46

Phil1888,

14/05/2008 07:08:43
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/wendy-alexander-goes-to-toilet-by-herself-20080507931/
47

Boy Wonder,

14/05/2008 07:14:48
New Labour appear to have got stuck in a revolving door ... and its Wind-up who's doing the pushing, while the rest are doing the shoving.

One year on ... and they still haven't sorted themselves out! Will they ever??
48

SHANGHAI SCOT,

SHANGHAI 14/05/2008 07:18:34
I have followed this comedy of errors since the anouncement by Wendy last week.

The articles and comments on the blog sites have been really entertaining.

One fustration, I have extreme difficulty in streaming video from the BBC or indeed U Tube sites on the sites referenced by contributers to the threads.

There is no censorship, just the broadband connection apears to be a bit erratic.

Anyone in this neck of the woods having the same difficulty?
49

Bob Christie,

14/05/2008 07:22:40
Wendy is totally humiliated!
Liebour MSPs are totally humiliated!
Gordon Brown's " government" is totally humiliated!
Liebour MP's are totally humiliated!
The entire Liebour Party and its members are totally humiliated!

But guess what? They'll all be back for more since nobody has the bottle to do anything about it!
50

haggis 10,

The Capital City of Scotland 14/05/2008 07:25:07
The've tried the Wendy Sin drome What next Social Engineering trick have have they up their sleeves I know send in the Black & Tans !!! and Forceably move the foolish Scots to some far off distant land . Then import some cheap labour to colonise North Britain . Problem solved Grateful immigrants vote New labour for another sixty years!!!!
51

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/05/2008 07:34:18
How can SNP ever lose with this quality of Opposition? Scotland just doesn't seem able to get classy MPs /MSPs.
52

,

14/05/2008 07:38:37
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

conservative,

14/05/2008 07:43:20
Birlin' like a peerie. You can only say that Scottish Labour have the leader they so richly deserve. Any bets on how long they will let this foolish woman stay in her position?
54

,

14/05/2008 07:53:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 14/05/2008 07:53:50
Wendy lass. I actually like you. I'm by no way a Lab supporter but I think you are a smart and intelligent person.

Please please please resign so that you can leave with a little dignity. Go take some time off, go spend some time with your kids and hubby, anythinjg at all but please leave before your reputation is beyond repair. You have a place in Government, that's for sure. It's just not as leader.
56

Phil C,

14/05/2008 07:57:01
I don't know how anyone could vote Labour ever again. Labour should in fact be disbanded now, on the grounds of gross misconduct, fraud and negligence.

Where will their votes go? A Tory revival....no chance. A LibDem boost....maybe. An SNP surge....possible, but the Titanic will be refloated first. A Slash n'Sleaze NuNu Labour.....No doubt.

In fact the others haven't a hope with the red rosetted numpty voters of this country. A bunch of people so dense and selfish that they would, even now, still consider imposing their idiotic representatives onto our system of government. It's their right but Jeeeeeeeezz!!
57

,

14/05/2008 08:01:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
58

,

14/05/2008 08:04:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
59

carrottop,

Dumfries 14/05/2008 08:16:41
No one could be that stupid all on her own so she must have the very best of the idiots in her inner cabinet.

Hope the cabinet has a key which can be thrown away after locking.
60

Endangeredscot,

14/05/2008 08:18:06
"This is a much more sensible position than the one held before."

um, which one?
61

Jay Kay,

14/05/2008 08:19:38
After what we have witnessed in this country over the last few years seriously is there anyone out there who would vote for the Nulab administration, honestly unless your utterly dense it aint gona happen, Broon is finished and he can take his Darling with him.

I want a referendum I want Scotland to be a single nation again so we can distance ourselves from the disgrace that is westmonster.

Brown in the past couple of months makes Mugabe look like a flippin Boy Scout, Mr Mugabe you need to take some lessons on how to demoralise your people from Broon.

Wendy hen your doing a great job keep up the good work im sure wee Eck will extend you a lifeline once Scotland becomes independent, oor wee wendy the sleeper mole.
62

Endangeredscot,

14/05/2008 08:19:42
I can't wait for FMQs. I can just imagine Alex standing up with a wee box of mints and saying to Wendy "Did you shake yer tictacs at me?"
63

Scotland to prosper...,

14/05/2008 08:20:35
I don't think I've ever witnessed so much indecision over one topic. How hard can it be to sit down and decide on one strategy? Then again it is Labour I suppose.

It’s a telling indication as to just how well the SNP are doing when Labour get themselves so worked up about a nationalist policy that isn’t due for another two years.

They thought they could go for the jugular but ended up not even able to get the knife out its sheath. As easy as Labour made it for the SNP, Salmond still had to manoeuvre his way through a minefield of possible gaffs, although thanks to Labour sign posting most of them, he had a pretty east time of it.

By sticking to their guns, the SNP have come out of this looking like the mature party. They have a well constructed argument for Independence, allowed a forum for debate and review which allows ALL possibilities (unlike the Calman Commission) and have consistently performed whilst in Government.

Which party would you vote for?

Labour, who tie themselves up in knots over a policy that’s not even their own?

Or the SNP, a party delivering time and time again?
64

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/05/2008 08:26:54
#37
There is no way on earth that we should use the SNP psyops question. Several of thepeople I have asked assume that if "negociations" do not go well then we would not go forward with independence. How about
Should Scotland become an Indepndent country Yes or No
65

Boggle fey the Bog,

14/05/2008 08:28:00
Aye a weeks a long time in politics!!!

So here we ur back where we started, except that Nu Labour/Owld torie, still want a referendum, Oh but wait a meenit, in the breath afore that they dinnae want a referendum, and aw that is in there new statement!

"And he (Duncan McNeil, the group chairman) insisted that Labour still supported a referendum on independence, in principle".

Noo whit wan is it Dunkie?, ur ye fur it or agin it, or ur ye a 'Don't Know'?

If ye want the wurdin o' the question go tae yer ain parliament site and look up Annex B in the National coversation bitty.

Onionists, aye nae scruples an nae brains.
66

BIG EYE,

Paisley 14/05/2008 08:29:06
The Grand Old Duke of York today confirmed reports that he "is seriously considering an offer to take over as leader of the Scottish Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament".

He continued "I beleive that my experience of leading my soldiers up and down the hill would be of great benefit to Labour at this time and I note the precision in their abilities to go round and round in circles already. I think we would be a great team"

A senior Labour backbencher said "Bring him on"
67

Linda,

Edinburgh 14/05/2008 08:32:53
# 66

Following legal and constitutional advice the referendum question SNP proposes is the best that can be asked under constraints of Scotland Act.

Only Westminster can ask the question you suggesat so why don't Labour bring it on?
68

Calum Crubag,

Dùn Eideann 14/05/2008 08:38:47
Is Wendy the worst Labour leader ever?

Has she actually done anything positive for Scots? Or is it all just dodgy donations, u-turns every day and endless bitter sniping at the SNP? So much for Labour 'listening'...
69

jdships,

14/05/2008 08:42:03
"Malcolm Chisholm MSP, ..... said: "The SNP have turned down the chance to end the uncertainty facing Scotland and now will be at the mercy of Labour's parliamentary tactics."

Tactics ? Labour are now right up there with the Lib Dems in this field.
Devoid of ideas and tactically inept

Wendy Alexander is synonomous with complete humiliation .

For Wendy/New Labour
In the words of the song
" The party's over ,
It's time to call it a day "
Shut the door on the way out - thankyou for nothing.
70

Publius,

London 14/05/2008 08:43:16
#66 All politicians ...
You're right. A question such as 'Do you want Scotland to become an independent state outside the United Kingdom?' [Yes/No] is the only meaningful sort of question.

#69 Linda
You're mistaken. There is nothing to stop the Scottish Parliament holding a CONSULTATIVE referendum on anything using whatever questions it chooses to formulate.

The problem now is as before - getting a majority for a referendum bill at Holyrood. Perhaps Labour at Holyrood should be asked what wording it would support.

71

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 14/05/2008 08:44:52
In May last year the Scottish National Party finally broke through the political glass ceiling and, whether or not it ever achieves its ultimate aim, in a short time it has proved that it is more than capable of running the devolved government of Scotland.

The Scots Unionist parties have been picked off one by one and, it would indeed be ironic, if Labour went the same way as the indigenous Tories?

Yesterday, after the Labour Party meeting at Holyrood, embarrassed party officials could not even face the the media to explain Wendy Alexander's shambolic policy on her proposed on/off Referendum?

In Opposition, the Labour Party in Scotland has been exposed as a poorly run political party which has simply taken the Scottish voter for granted, and is urgently in need of radical change before it is too late!
72

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 14/05/2008 08:46:10
So now everyone knows that Labour were never interested in letting the people express their views.Their offer to support a referendum bill was only a cynical tactic to beat back a very popular SNP government.I have been there before so Labours tactics are familiar to me.In the 1970's ,in order to beat back a surge in SNP support,they offered a Scottish Assembly.However,many Labour MP's were oppossed and Labour rigged the vote,did not campaign very much during the referendum and in spite of a narrow yes majority would not implement the bill.Then as now Labour were more concered about themselves,than the poeople.We should not be surprised to see them use tried and trusted tactics in 2008.However,unlike 1978,the tactic failed.What Labour achieved this time was to:

1) Demonstrate that (like 1978) they are divided.This is a problem for them because divided parties always lose.

2) Demonstrate that they cannot be trusted

3)Put themselves into an awkward position.They either deliver their (alleged)committment to let the people express their view in 2010,or pay the price at the next Scottish election.I think that Alec Salmond cannot believe his luck.He has been placed in a win win situation.
73

Publius,

London 14/05/2008 08:47:04
#65 Scotland to Prosper ...

Agree that Scottish Labour look like idiots. Reason obvious: they are behaving like idiots.

But disagree that SNP looks like a mature party. There is nothing mature about calling for a conversation about something when you have already made up your mind. The White paper and the conversation are simply party propaganda at public expense.
74

megz,

glasgow 14/05/2008 08:47:55
Anyone notice that slab are being downgraded? It used to be Scottish Labour now its members of the Scottish Parliament's 'Labour group'. They should call them what they really are, ventriloquist dummy of gordon brown. They can't speak for themselves so there is no chance they can speak for scotland or stand up for scotland.
75

Caratacus,

West Britain 14/05/2008 08:48:08
Labour are unravelling quicker than a ball of wool in a field of kittens.
76

Publius,

London 14/05/2008 08:50:17
#73 Lachie Todd

"In May last year the Scottish National Party finally broke through the political glass ceiling and, whether or not it ever achieves its ultimate aim, in a short time it has proved that it is more than capable of running the devolved government of Scotland."

You're right...BUT any party could do a capable job of run the devolved government if made a reasonable effort. Labour never did. That doesn't prove the need for independence. It just gives the SNP a good claim to be reelected to run the devolved government for another few years.
77

Alastair the First,

14/05/2008 08:50:34
Malcolm Chisholm on Newsnight last night used the phrase "blank cheque" about 60 times in one interview. Obviously Labour like that phrase so much that they have told everyone to keep repeating it. Meanwhile we will achieve independence using a direct online banking transfer, so no need for a cheque, Mr Chisholm.
78

Alasdair,

14/05/2008 08:53:09
I'm so confused.. I give it maybe 3 days before Wendy says she still wants a referendum now.

Anyway, there's something we should remember that doesn't seen to be getting much discussion - it's all very well to get shot of a misfiring leader, but that doesn't address the wider problems within a party, it merely papers over the cracks. It's not just Wendy that has been forced into an embarrassing climbdown, it's every Labout MSP that came out with their hastily knocked together speaches supporting her last week. All those earnestly related points about why she was correct have now been turned on their head, and the credibility of those espousing them is seriously in question.
79

Gruithainn,

Arbroath 14/05/2008 08:53:27
Is there a repository for inept people (Mc Neil,the Twa Alexanders, McConnell & McLeish before them)who wish to represent or even lead Labour in Scotland. A kind of shop perhaps - Eejits-R-Us?
80

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 14/05/2008 08:54:27
#72 "You're right. A question such as 'Do you want Scotland to become an independent state outside the United Kingdom?' [Yes/No] is the only meaningful sort of question."

Except you can't ask that (rather skewed) question because in the event of Scottish independence there would be no United Kingdom for us to be outside of. By definition, if the Union is dissolved then there's no United anything.

The remainder would have to decide what to call itself, but the current title ("United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Northern Ireland") would be void, since "Great Britain" is the name of the physical island on which we live, irrespective of how we choose to divide up the contents.

#75 So once you've chosen your own particular viewpoint on a subject, you've never had a conversation with anyone about it? Your very presence on these boards would seem to dispute that assertion.
81

megz,

glasgow 14/05/2008 08:56:34
#79 yes also listen for harrying, exposing hollowness, tactics (hahahahhahahaha as someone said before members of the Scottish Parliament's 'Labour group' think tactics are little mints)
82

Tory_Boy,

The deep south 14/05/2008 08:56:39
Greetings Dear Friends!

Well all you Jocks and Jockesses up there in the frozen north are really getting the old loin-cloths in a twist over this referendum business eh? But not to fear we Conservatives are coming to the rescue. My good friend Dave assures me that once he assumes the levers of power, he will hold a referendum for you! We will ask all the good people of England if they wish Scotland to remain within the UK and when the resounding NO vote is cast, there you have it you will have your independence! Now there's only one small problem with this and that is that some of my good friends in Edinburgh say that they do not want to be part of an independent Scotland. Again not to fear! We will give the people of Edinburgh their own referendum, and if they wish to join with us we can make a kind of 'Berlin Corridor' up the A1.

Come on now you know it makes sense!
83

DouglasT,

14/05/2008 08:58:17
It says everything about the quality of Labour MSPs that Alexander is still leading the group.
84

Melly,

Sussex 14/05/2008 08:59:19
Aw c`mon folks lay off Wendy she`s only been exploring the options, playing devil`s advocat, a sort of brain storming session really which has yet to reach it`s conclusion !! I vote we keep Wendy, unless slab can find someone else with the same superior intellect- there. Is that possible ?
85

Scotland to prosper...,

14/05/2008 09:01:13
#65 Publius

I fail to see the argument against allowing the public to air their views on an issue.

Yes you may argue a referendum is enough of a platform for the public to express their wish but allowing a fully open debate PRIOR to a referendum allows and much more informed decision at the ballot box.

And indeed the National Conversation and white paper options are far superior to that of the Calman Commission, at least it allows debate on ALL options.

The nationalists HAVE approached this topic in a mature way, they have not gone steaming ahead with a referendum (much to Labours disappointment), they have allowed a period of time to firstly prove themselves in Government and secondly to give the people of Scotland a chance to become informed about Independence.

It is typical of Labour to want the public to decide their fate before allowing any time for debate. The less informed they are, the less likely to vote for change.
86

Truely English,

14/05/2008 09:04:34
Now we know that the Scots do not consider ethnic nationalism to be important and instead talk and discuss Civic Nationalism. Is that because they are English speakers and naturally they are ethnically English.

87

Truely English,

14/05/2008 09:05:58
Will their Ethnicity have any bearing on the Referendum which they hope to have in 2010.

88

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/05/2008 09:09:36
#82

You are wrong, the precedent was set with Montenegro when both the EU and UN agreed that the rump state left after secession retains the name and all memberships of international organisations whilst the newly independent sate will apply for all memberships and not have the right to use rump state name.
89

Boggle fey the Bog,

14/05/2008 09:21:18
75 Publius,London 14/05/2008 08:47:04

"But disagree that SNP looks like a mature party. There is nothing mature about calling for a conversation about something when you have already made up your mind. The White paper and the conversation are simply party propaganda at public expense"

But there is an abundance of maturity being demonstrated by the Onionistas forcing through the Scottish Parliament 'A Commission on Devolution, to exclude any talk of Independence',which has been 'hi-jacked' and downgraded to a 'Review' by Westminster, been totally side-swept by Nu Labour/Owld Torie, north and south of the border...er um... and paid for by the Scottish Tax Payer.

When there already is an 'all encompassing conversation' enabled by the legally elected Scottish Government.

Well if that's maturity, then the present Scottish Government must have the stability and wisdom of Solomon, which IMHO they have.
90

roughrider,

Glasgow 14/05/2008 09:23:13
I wish the inglish had the balls to fight for their own parliment. Sadly they havent.
91

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 14/05/2008 09:23:21
I believe that Wendy got it wrong when she claimed that an early referendum would end uncertainty.There is no polling evidence to support the claim that a committment to a referendum in 2010 is troubling many people.On the contary the business community and most of the voters appear to be very relaxed.The only uncertainty is being caused by Labour.The SNP have a manifesto committment to deliver a referendum,but Labour have now u turned on their promise not to obstruct the referendum bill.

I also disagree with that the national conversation is about party propaganda.Having sampled some of it,it is evident that it is balanced and inclusive of all views.It opens up the possibility of other options,such as greater powers.I must say that I find it very refeshing to find politicians who are interested in all views and who are prepared to give me an opportunity to discuss.In the past I have had a series of MP's who were not remotely interested in my view,if it differed from theirs.I think that it is quite correct that the public,especially the indecided are provided with an opportunity to provide the politicians with their views,to ask questions,and to recieve answers.That is democracy,a concept not well understood by some of our previous rulers.
92

AJ Fife,

14/05/2008 09:32:28
Wendy must stay!!!

However, if she gets the size 12 boot right up her, not inconsiderable, bahookie, could we please have the hapless Gray or the 'dull as ditch water' Chisholm as a replacement. Either could fill the position perfectly and they may even add some new forms of incompetence to the Labour leadership!

The dream would be Foulkes! Even the Labour Party aren't that daft, are they???
93

Mrs Miggins,

14/05/2008 09:37:13
SNP landslide at the next election.

Hurrah for the white cockade!!!
94

Boggle fey the Bog,

14/05/2008 09:37:29
90 All Politicians are the same,Scotland 14/05/2008 09:09:36

I think you are wrong on that one The State Union of Serbia and Montenegro existed between 2003 and 2006, and ceased to exist after Montenegro declared Independence in 3rd June 2006, it's (Montenegro's) currency before UDI was the Euro, as it still is.

The 'Rump state' Serbia, declared their Independence also in 5th June 2006.

So no 'Rump State' left only two new republics, and a UN administered area (Kosovo, which UDI'd this year, 2008).

95

Iain's,

14/05/2008 09:40:30
The danger of an independent Scotland is that the New Labour party turn the country into Europe's Myanmar /Burma. A self seeking corrupt snake pit.
96

Boggle fey the Bog,

14/05/2008 09:45:10
97 Iain's,14/05/2008 09:40:30

That's taking Onionist 'Scaremongering' to the Nth.

"Hey guys don't vote for Independence, as you'll end up with a Nu Labour/Owld Torie dic tatorship."

That's why we want Independence, we already have that, and we're pucked off with it!!!
97

Arfur,

14/05/2008 09:51:57
"Malcolm Chisholm MSP, ..... said: "The SNP have turned down the chance to end the uncertainty facing Scotland and now will be at the mercy of Labour's parliamentary tactics." - I nearly fell of my chair laughing when I seen this.

Wendy the halfwit must stay.
98

Miss H,

14/05/2008 09:55:59
75 That is a mad comment. It really is. Do you seriously believe that the Scottish people have made up their minds about independence, enhanced devolution and all the other options? My God we don't even know what enhanced devolution MEANS at this stage so how can people make a judgement?

Or are you simply talking about the position taken by political parties? Because if so your remarks are meaningless. Positions change, as we have seen over the past few weeks!

In any case the whole entire point of the national conversation is to ensure that the decision is in the hands of the electors, not decided in stitched up deals by politicians behind closed doors.
99

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 14/05/2008 09:56:14
#96

"Serbia will inherit the union's seat at the United Nations and in other international institutions.

Montenegro will have to apply for membership in international organisations once it has been granted recognition by other states"

From the BBC 22/05/2006.

100

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

14/05/2008 10:18:54
The only way she can survive in any form as a politician is not only to resign as leader of the Labour group of MSPs but also from the Labour Party.

If she sat as an independent she'd probably be a damn sight more effective that the 45 other turkeys who just voted for Christmas. I say 45 - we don't know if any MSPs actually backed her - if there is a serious split amongst Labour MSPs this could run and run.
101

Farmernot,

14/05/2008 10:19:06
OUpon her resignation will she have to hand back the " Leadership Election Expenses" she so wrongfully claimed ????????.............I'm not holding my breath.
She is as unaelectable as a hungry caterpillar now......bye bye soor pus
102

Conan the Librarian™,

14/05/2008 10:20:42
He He.The "tactics" of the Light Brigade at Balaclava...and the Thin Red Line is suffering from Anorexia nervosa;-)
103

pehman,

sussex 14/05/2008 10:23:45
When the blab spokesman says "we didn't make them" read we just said we'd hold back any payments to slab, just as we're doing to Holyrood