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Labour could team up with the Tories at Holyrood



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Published Date: 18 August 2008
IAIN Gray, the frontrunner in the Scottish Labour leadership race, raised the prospect of a groundbreaking pact with the Conservatives yesterday as a way of taking on the Nationalists in the Scottish Parliament.
Speaking to a leadership hustings meeting in Aberdeen, Mr Gray said Labour and the Tories shared the similar aim of reducing council tax bills for the most vulnerable.

Mr Gray said Labour wanted to exempt pensioners from water charges while the Tories wanted to give pensioners a 50 per cent council tax reduction.

He said: "We really have to ask ourselves if we cannot find a way of getting some kind of compromise which would get relatively immediate succour to at least a section of the population and by working together actually drive that through the parliament."

Mr Gray said the Labour Party should be prepared to undertake that kind of cross-party approach if it was to use the parliament of minorities to its advantage.

Derek Brownlee, for the Tories, said his party would be willing to talk to anybody, from any party, who was committed to helping reduce the impact of the council tax.

With more MSPs and MPs supporting his bid than his leadership rivals Cathy Jamieson or Andy Kerr, and with sizeable union and constituency support, Mr Gray is leading the race to replace Wendy Alexander as leader of Labour in the Scottish Parliament. His decision to seek a deal with the Conservatives – and the Tories' willingness to pursue it from their end – makes some form of agreement a real possibility.

That prospect will alarm some in the Labour Party who still regard the Conservatives as their most bitter political enemies but it shows that Mr Gray is not afraid to seek completely different solutions to achieve some form of success in the Scottish Parliament.

All the candidates for the Labour leadership believe the council tax should go in the long term, to be replaced with some form of property-based tax, but they also feel something should be done in the short term to help those suffering most acutely from high fuel and food prices.

The move to exempt pensioners from water charges was pioneered by Ms Jamieson and is being supported by the other two candidates.

Mr Gray, the former enterprise minister, also said he wanted to get supermarkets to lower the prices of "daily essentials" such as bread and milk to a uniform low level.

He said that some supermarkets charged more for basic foods in their smaller city centre stores than they did in their big, out-of-town superstores.

Mr Gray said it was often those on lowest incomes who had to use the city-centre stores and there could be "social tariffs" for foods, to make sure supermarkets provided the same prices for all.

A spokesman for the leadership contender said afterwards that Mr Gray was not looking to force the supermarkets to change their prices but he wanted to introduce a voluntary code to make sure the most disadvantaged did not lose out.

The hustings in Aberdeen was the first of a series which will see the three leadership contenders tour the country.

Mr Kerr was adamant that the party had to stop tearing itself apart. "We must stop beating ourselves up and start beating up the SNP," was his blunt message, repeating his insistence that while some in the party thought Alex Salmond was a "big figure", he saw him as a "big target".

Ms Jamieson took a different tack, stressing her left-wing credentials and insisting Scottish Labour had to change and stand up for "Labour values" if it was to regain the trust of the people.

The former justice minister also made it clear she would be backing those taking strike action on Wednesday in the public-sector pay dispute.


The full article contains 646 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 18 August 2008 10:04 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Vivas,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 00:03:47
Vote Gray, vote Slabservative.
2

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 00:07:36
the tories in partnership with labour.

I thought they already were as there is no difference between them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1562964/Baroness-Thatcher-visits-Gordon-Brown.html
3

Oldnat,

18/08/2008 00:07:49
Why should anyone be surprised at two Tory parties getting together? Mind you, I would be surprised if the Scottish Tories would align themselves with a really right wing party such as SLab.
4

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 18/08/2008 00:08:44


So , they are not desperate or anything then ?

It is due only to the fact that labour is sooooooo far from its original values and morals that this is a valid proposition.

Desperately clinging to the last shreds of dignity , the workers party decides to throw even those shreds away in a futile attempt to keep their snouts in the trough.
5

Boy Wonder,

18/08/2008 00:09:10
If Labour EVER go into a partnership with the Tories ... they'll be burying themselves forever!

That's one thing I NEVER want to see!
6

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 00:11:40
What a wizard wheeze...From the bring it on school of political suicide.

Who's the Tartan Tories noo yah f u d?

Cannae be Labour...They're no Tartan enough!
7

Conan the Librarian™,

18/08/2008 00:12:40
Hush! Is that the hum of Keir Hardie spinning?
8

Jwil,

18/08/2008 00:14:40
No comments from the Tories then? Just half a story as usual!
9

Senga Jean,

SCOTLAND 18/08/2008 00:14:47
MAKES SENSE AT SO MANY LEVELS. Aye right,allright.Blairrite,Brownright, Bye Bye Baby. welcome the new dawn of Scotland free,self confident and rid of all the self loathing leaches. All of Scotland's peoples will be better off and not just in the material sense.
10

druidh,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 00:16:20
Tartan Tories?
11

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 00:16:34
"That prospect will alarm some in the Labour Party who still regard the Conservatives as their most bitter political enemies "

Never in a million years is that true, i must have read thousands of comments on this website over the past 2 years and i could probably count on the one hand the amount of times 2 unionists have tormented each other.

In parliament even before the SNP won power Labour hardly ever attacked the Conservatives and all their vile and over the top propergander was flung at the SNP.

Labour in Scotland despise the SNP because over the years the SNP has eroded that ficticious title labour had of being Scotland's natural party of choice.
12

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:17:06
#1 Vivas

It's called consensual politics. You nats approve when the SNP is involved.

#3 Oldnat

Strange comment. Am I to presume that you parted philosophical company with Old Labour when it began to drag its unelectable hulk into the late twentieth century?

#4 Figures

"Values and morals"? Do you actually think that old-style socialism is morally superior to modern social democracy?
13

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 18/08/2008 00:20:30
I dont think Nu Labour have any values or morals is what I think .
Labour selling out to the tories , i havent laughed so hard in ages. All to keep their grubby snouts in the trough any way they possibly can.

Moral compass ? How about Morally bankrupt ?
14

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:20:31
#11 Spook

I would venture to suggest that much of the particular antagonism between Labour and the SNP is due to the fact that they're competing for the same centre-left voters.
15

The Spook in Leith,

Glenrothes votes SNP 18/08/2008 00:23:04
#12 AM2

I thought the word was consensus ? something that is hardly on the lips of any in the Labour party.

Mind you i have to give it to the Conservatives, they are by far the most (AM2,s word consensual)out of the 3 main opposition parties.
16

Conan the Librarian™,

18/08/2008 00:23:54
12
Good Morning AM2

Your comment at 3

"unelectable hulk"

What goes around, comes around.
17

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 00:24:44
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I hope this man wins the election to become the Westminster Liaison Rep for the Labour MSP's.
18

Senga Jean,

18/08/2008 00:25:37
#15 i always associate that word with sex. Who is being shafted?
19

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:28:22
#13 Figures

So, you don't think that people anywhere between centre-left (Labour) and centre-right (Tory) have any values or morals. That's an awful lot of people!

Can I presume that your sympathies lie somewhere significantly left of Labour?
20

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 00:29:46
#14 AM2

#11 Spook

I would venture to suggest that much of the particular antagonism between Labour and the SNP is due to the fact that they're competing for the same centre-left voters."

or it could just be the fact that a weak labour party in Scotland means no power in Westminster and lets face it for the past 50 years in Scotland the Conservative party has shrunk to little more than a toffs Tupperware party in a Newton mearns
bungalow..
21

The Spook in Leith,

Spooks up late 18/08/2008 00:34:01
#18 Senga Jean,18/08/2008 00:25:37
#15 i always associate that word with sex. Who is being shafted?

lol, i did hear that Ian Gray was very "consensual" to big Jackie the hut but was the consensus genuine or was he just being frightened into a passive mode of non confidence by the big hippo ?
22

Oldnat,

18/08/2008 00:34:24
AM
"Can I presume that your sympathies lie somewhere significantly left of Labour?"

So, which parties are right of Labour?
23

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 00:40:07
#22 oldnat

Thats a stormer of a question for AM2, the slavering er reply will be intriguing.
24

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 18/08/2008 00:41:27

AM2 Yes this would be consensual however most Labour voters I know are socialists not unionists any pact with the Tories will kill them .

This is Gordon Brown speaking via his Scottish puppet if they do this at last we might see an independent Scottish Labour party

Because most Labourite people I know cant stand the Tories after the Thatcher years bring it on it will end the union so much quicker .

And guess who will be the new Tartan Tories
25

Senga Jean,

18/08/2008 00:43:50
I think AM2 is a Unionist franchise....and this one is not nearly as challenging as the last one
26

What happens when the oil runs out?,

18/08/2008 00:44:42
The fires of hell could burn out too!

Annabel would eat Iain Gray for breakfast but she'd rather stab her eyes out first.

Nice to see the same old suspects turning up so early on the same thread.

Auntie Mary had a canary . . .

Too!
27

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:45:20
#22 Oldnat

The Lib Dems in certain respects and the Tories in most.

Now would you like to answer my question to you in #12?
28

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:46:23
#25 Senga Jean

I'm pretty much disengaged from newspaper forums.
29

,

18/08/2008 00:47:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
30

Conan the Librarian™,

18/08/2008 00:47:38
25
Indeed Senga, he seems to start and then stop in less than an hour.

But he is funnier.
31

,

18/08/2008 00:49:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
32

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 00:52:16
#24 Marky Bhoy

I think that, like Hamish Macdonell, you may be reading a bit much into what Iain Gray actually said. From the quotes above, he seems interested only in cooperation on certain issues where there may be sufficient common ground, not in a full-scale "pact".

Interesting that your Labour-voting friends consider themselves to be socialists. Presumably you have no mutual contacts with Oldnat or Figures, who seem to imagine Labour to be somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan!
33

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 18/08/2008 00:56:29
32
Most Labour people I know vote that way because they think they are the party of 60 years ago IE the working man .

Thank goodness the message is slowly getting through
34

SlyFifer,

Somewhere West of Scotland 18/08/2008 01:01:32
WOW. This is such a great idea, why has no-one ever thought of this before. Corrupt Liebour, bereft of any sensible policy, sinking under the weight of absurd levels of taxation and of course our dearly beloved Conservatives and Unionists. What a great partnership. I can see it now, electoral bliss. With one fell swoop the SNP will eliminate this unionist cancer which has lied, cheated, deceived and mis-lead the Scottish people for generations. What a great thing this Internet age is. At last people can find the truth slowly leaching out behind the black out curtains erected in front of the Scottish people by these hideous cretins. Soon more will be revealed to the Scottish people who will finally find out just what scumbags Liebour and the Conservatives have been for decades.
35

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 01:02:52
#32 AM2

"From the quotes above, he seems interested only in cooperation on certain issues where there may be sufficient common ground, not in a full-scale pact"

This is true but it will be fun and games on the political map what with a patchy Cons/Labour collaboration in Scotland a Plaid Cymru/ Labour pact in Wales, blimey who is left for Labour to cosy up to coz they have gone to bed with the libdums before, ah in Westminster they could team up with the mighty Rev i am jolly..hardy har har..
36

AM2,

Scotland,UK 18/08/2008 01:04:53
#29 Marky Bhoy

Ah, reductio ad Hitlerum. Godwin's Law invoked. You lose. Goodnight.
37

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 01:07:38
#22 Oldnat - Look for yourself...there are none.
|far/left............SSP...............left...SNP....................................................FIB/DEM...centre..................................................................right..Tory..........Attila/the/H*n......Labour..........far/right|

38

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 18/08/2008 01:08:58

36

Wrong again I win you are the one who posts links to the Scottish Unionist ( Fascist) party on here
39

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 01:14:17
#37 Blimp

Hoi blimp stop doing them stupid posts coz its shunting every bit of info on my screen to the left, most annoying Blimp..tick tock..
40

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 01:20:55
#39

Are you that guy that had the little Scotland blog and posts as James Banks ?

2 points..1st point..Your blog was only a tool for slanting SNP supporters and AM2, the latter im not that bothered about (lol) but have you seen AM2,s blog/website, man it makes your blog little more than a redundant ladybird book..and i have posted some of my slavering on it, its for the more upmarket forum users soz i think you would get moderated if you went near it..

2nd point.. Your James Banks posts say more about your state of mind than the point you are trying to put across..
41

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 18/08/2008 01:22:49
Looks like they are getting ready to jettison the LibDems from the Canute Commission.

the Labour-Tory alliance is the best news I have heard in a long time. It should play well in Glenrothes.

Grey Gray and Auntie .. now there is a thought that will take time to remove from my head.

Of course, how will Grey Gray sweep the Tories off their feat when even together, they are still a minority in the parliament? Do they expect the Greens to support them?

42

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 01:24:53
#40 The Spook in Leith

Sorry old chum...Cathy's leftward looking thousand yard stare must have spooked me.

Normal service will be resumed ASAP.
43

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 01:24:53
#42


"Spook, on the other hand , is a ferking tw4t!"

Is that it ?

44

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 01:28:51
#45 Blimp

Glad to hear normal service will be resumed hee hee..

Oooer with regards to Fjord Transit i do believe you post as David Banks and not James Banks, my recherche team are a bit on the slow side tonight..
45

The Spook in Leith,

apple and lolly = epos 18/08/2008 01:34:44
#47 Fjord Transit

Hmm your not that clever a person soz it may not have been yourself and as for me being careful out there, i do know how to cross the road..!!
46

The Spook in Leith,

18/08/2008 01:36:18
#50

Its a big bit of snot.. okay the floors all yours, im off to bed to count white vans..
47

Oldnat,

18/08/2008 01:38:23
AM
To answer your #12 I temporarily worked for Labour while they were the best mechanism to get a Scottish Parliament. If I hadn't been going to leave anyway, I certainly would have when there was a movement to return the allocation of council houses to the Labour Councillors. You are probably unaware of what women were required to do to get a house under that system.

Re your #27 Please provide evidence for your assertion. Strange to say, no one here will believe your stating anything.
48

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 01:49:32
48 The Spook in Leith

Are you the alternate Spook?...slight moniker variation.
49

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 01:52:13
#53 Fjord Transit

I have and am shocked and amazed!
50

dtaj wmt gaga,

18/08/2008 01:53:59
#54,

You and my Auntie Mary too have figured out that all is not right around here.

Spooky claims to be from a minority group but uses white vans as a term of abuse.

Shurely shome mistake?

51

dtaj wmt gaga,

18/08/2008 01:55:34
#55,

Me as well.

What can it mean?

How many times can you betray a friend and colleague?
52

dtaj wmt gaga,

18/08/2008 01:58:27
Where did the 40 posts go?

How come they disappeared from RSS too?

This moniker is on borrowed time but all posts saved to HTML.
53

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 02:00:31
#56 dtaj wmt gaga

Indeed, the Toyota Hiace is revered in some cultures.
54

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 02:11:07
#58 dtaj wmt gaga

Stranger than the missing forty posts disappearing was that all posts that mentioned any of them were among the casualties.

But all posts by the monikers affected were not removed Just the ones on the forbidden topic(whatever that was)and any who responded to a post or moniker that they had decided to censor.

And that instead of simply deleting in the customary manner they removed them leaving no trace.

Very strange.
55

Col. Blimp­IV*,

18/08/2008 02:12:19
#58 dtaj wmt gaga

Stranger than the missing forty posts disappearing was that all posts that mentioned any of them were among the casualties.

But all posts by the monikers affected were not removed Just the ones on the forbidden topic(whatever that was)and any who responded to a post or moniker that they had decided to censor.

And that instead of simply deleting in the customary manner they removed them leaving no trace.

Very strange.
56

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 02:16:23
12 AM2, Scotland,

It is not often that AM2 is right – BUT he’s wrong again!!

It is plain that your understanding of the English language is faulty, in that you do not know the difference between ‘to connive’ and ‘to consent’.

Consensual Politics requires Mediation between the parties to find areas common agreement and to seek Compromise in other areas. What is proposed here is the joining of forces by two normally opposing ideologies to defeat what they perceive as the common enemy.

I know war is said to make strange bedfellows, but in this case their ‘common enemy’ is the party chosen by the electorate, so ipso facto they are opposing the will of the Scottish people.

I find it impossible to believe that any member of either the Tory or Labour Party would even consider such a proposal. The effect on their core vote could be devastating. The “ma Da and his Da afore him voted Labour” brigade will be horrified; as will the Blue rinse brigade. They will have no option but to vote LD or SNP, alternatively not vote at all. Such and agreement would obliterate both parties I just cannot see the grassroots Tory accepting this.


57

Sanny,

Glasgow or Algarve 18/08/2008 02:16:37
12 AM2, Scotland,

It is not often that AM2 is right – BUT he’s wrong again!!

It is plain that your understanding of the English language is faulty, in that you do not know the difference between ‘to connive’ and ‘to consent’.

Consensual Politics requires Mediation between the parties to find areas common agreement and to seek Compromise in other areas. What is proposed here is the joining of forces by two normally opposing ideologies to defeat what they perceive as the common enemy.

I know war is said to make strange bedfellows, but in this case their ‘common enemy’ is the party chosen by the electorate, so ipso facto they are opposing the will of the Scottish people.

I find it impossible to believe that any member of either the Tory or Labour Party would even consider such a proposal. The effect on their core vote could be devastating. The “ma Da and his Da afore him voted Labour” brigade will be horrified; as will the Blue rinse brigade. They will have no option but to vote LD or SNP, alternatively not vote at all. Such and agreement would obliterate both parties I just cannot see the grassroots Tory accepting this.


58

Christina, Aberdeen,

18/08/2008 02:58:46
Labour Unionists like Gray would still, as in Labour's submission to Kilbrandon Commission in the 1970s, rather see a Tory government in London than a Labour government in Edinburgh.
59

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 03:18:41
right anyone interested the realm of scotland and scotland UN story read here. page 150


https://wcd.coe.int/
com.instranet.Instra
Servlet?command=com.
instranet.CmdBlobGet
&InstranetImage=2425
84&SecMode=1&DocId=5
60272&Usage=2
60

Castaway,

18/08/2008 03:37:10
#64:karinxxx,I think this could also be the same story:-
The Scotland-UN Committee: http://tinyurl.com/5n4xnf
61

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 04:07:19
66 its not a story its the proof of what the scotland UN commitee did the link i gave is for the council of europe which i hadnt come accross before probably with the secrecy thing.

Some people had doubted that the scotland UN commitee actually existed. Or that labour had nothing to do with the scottish parlaiment coming into being that these documents and the time line prove that devolution was forced on them they didnt want to do it.
62

Maisie from Morningside,

18/08/2008 04:24:51
He wasn't called TORY Blair for nothing.
63

Castaway,

18/08/2008 04:28:18
#67 I had a problem with copy/paste of your #65 url eventually I mangaged and this is that url:- http://tinyurl.com/6zc279
64

,

18/08/2008 04:39:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

donald,

glasgow 18/08/2008 04:45:47
The Union Jack Tories already have a pact with the Tories against Scottish democracy.
66

democracy,

Scottish Borders 18/08/2008 05:04:25
Iain Gray is a HUGE joke,he needs some alliances to go forward, as he simply couldn't himself.

Did you see him on one of the Newsnight Scotland progs. where he was reduced to a gibbering wreck by Gordon Brewer, so can you imagine what Mr A.Salmond will do to him, you would almost have to feel sorry for him.........almost!!!
67

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

Aroond and aboot 18/08/2008 05:26:38
Is there no decency left in the Scottish Labour Party. Treachary is all it is. How can this so called party of the people even think about getting into bed with the torries who were responsible for decimating the whole mining industry never mind the Poll Tax.

Go on ya bunch of numpties, do it and watch whats left of your support base disappear as if by magic!

Scotland on towards freedom and prosperity.
68

Phil C,

18/08/2008 06:31:24
"Mr Gray said Labour wanted to exempt pensioners from water charges while the Tories wanted to give pensioners a 50 per cent council tax reduction."

What? Only 50%, help the vulnerable...

....The SNP propose a 100% reduction in unfair council tax for EVERYBODY. Instead, the poorest and most vulnerable will pay nothing. People will pay according to their means. Easy! It's called Local Income Tax. In this consensual age Labour would be better joining in with the SNP's common sense approach, rather than trying to cobble together some half-baked measures to improve their diminishing popularity.

This proposed 'alliance' of jokers is old Labour/Tory adversarial politics at it's worse. Voters should consign both these petty and damaging parties to history.
69

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 18/08/2008 07:11:42
This proposal reeks of desperation. Labours way of confronting the fact that they are now as unelecteable as the Tories.
70

Richardinho,

18/08/2008 07:17:00
"Mr Gray, the former enterprise minister, also said he wanted to get supermarkets to lower the prices of "daily essentials" such as bread and milk to a uniform low level."

Wow-that's pretty radical!

"A spokesman for the leadership contender said afterwards that Mr Gray was not looking to force the supermarkets to change their prices but he wanted to introduce a voluntary code to make sure the most disadvantaged did not lose out."

Ah no, just the usual nu-labour pii-sh and spin.
71

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:19:30
Aren't New Labour and Conservatives pretty much the same party now anyway, they only tinker at the edges of policy and their funding sources are different.

Labour carried over Tory policies when came into power at Westminster, Tories say will do similar with some of Labours if get in.
72

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:30:12

druidh,
edinburgh 18/08/2008 00:16:20

Indeed.....

New Labour (Same Old Tory),
should be their battlecry.

This unholy alliance has been alive and well for some time now,and it was inevitable that all Unionist parties would come together,when the truth about what they have been doing finally became common knowledge.
Recent events have accelerated this inevitability,as the three Unionist parties realise that LIEBOUR can no longer command the gullability of the village idiot.

Its still relatively unknown in most Scottish households that Scotland has been conned for the last fifty years at least,over the strength of the Scottish economy.The complete picture ceased to be published around 1958.Since then what we have is biased through exclusion or misrepresentation and the complete picture has been suppressed.
McCrone proved this in a number of ways.
1) If the Westminster government had been publishing the real complete figures for Scotland they would not need the McCrone Report.They would already know what effect the oil would have on the Scottish economy, because Scotland was actually sound without the oil and still is.The oil merely enhanced our strength.
2) The Report was basically what the SNP had claimed for many many years plus the oil revenues.Scotland was very sound indeed,embarrassingly so.The case for independence was overwhelming.
3) The Report was suppressed (and a hazy mist of lies and deception was transmitted over the airwaves and published by the PRESS GANG) and its only because of the Freedom of Information Act and the sterling efforts of an SNP researcher who discovered it ,that it surfaced at all!

This should be common knowledge of course,but at least the incompetence of the Brown government coupled to the warmongering and dishonesty of the BLIAR government are enough to convince most people that neither Labour nor the United Condom are the answer.

Who cares how we set ourselves free,as long as we do so.
ITS TIME.
73

ppink,

18/08/2008 07:34:36
#25 Senga Jean

"AM2 a unionist franchise"

Yes I agree, the new AM2 is less volatile than the original whose cage could be rattled. I think the Johnson Press have now formally taken over the "franchise" and it is part of the Scotsman hack-of-the-night" to write the article and then post a few replies to get some interest going on-line and then bog off to the pub or bed (Rebus comes to mind).

The real AM2, the unionist car salesman from Kilmarnock or whatever became a unprofessional pest and was stripped of his quasi Scotsman duties and paid to 'blog off' by the online Ed.

'AM3' then returns in various incarnations, responsibility of the Ed. Any scribbler who fancies a knock at the SNP basically and knowing how lazy journos are it is probably the Ed who has to do the later afternoon stint as SM753 or similar.

This is why AM3's posts are now lanquidly professional, mocking, meaningless and lacking in personal content

and as #8 JWIL said. It's only half a story.











74

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:52:25

Richardinho,
18/08/2008 07:17:00

It occurred to me some time ago that luxury and non essentials could carry a level of VAT or similar tax which was ring fenced and used to subsidise essentials, where NO VAT is payable.
We already do this based upon whether its cooked or not!Surely we could do this based upon whether its justified or not!
This would be self financing and taking 10p off a loaf of bread and pint of milk is only the tip of the iceberg.The whole idea of indirect taxation is one I do not particularly like,since the ability to pay is surely what we should look at first.The problem with taxation of poorer people is you create more problems than you solve, apart from being morally bankrupt anyway.

If we must tax them ,we could at least show some sensitivity and leave the daily bread that they eat alone!
Ok,if you want to increase VAT on luxurious items to compensate, then do so if you must.
I still cannot see the argument of employing PAYE which is fair,only to then impose indirect taxation which is reclaiming the fairness of PAYE back again.Hypocrisy is the word I would use.We already have to suffer the indignity of the budget where the government announces changes to the free pay allowances (as if we should be grateful),when anybody with basic level arithmetic should be able to work out that failure to do so, means any pay increase incurs more tax,(Free Pay allowance has not risen in line with inflation) and is in real terms a pay cut therefore, in net terms,(plus it buys less because of inflation anyway).
We cannot win presumably,but we can at least not volunteer our poorest citizens as a price worth paying!
75

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 07:54:49
It has often been said that if there is no Council Tax then there can be no CT benefit from central government.
With this in mind, if there is a reduction in CT to those who are already in receipt of CTB, how much does Iain Gray expect to lose of the £400 million we get from central government at present ?
76

MacGillicuddy,

18/08/2008 08:11:36
Given that a fag paper could not be put between them, the Liebour Party would be as well to merge with the Tories. The main thing that both parties have in common is that they are finished in Scotland.
77

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 08:12:06
82 Have you even read the scotland UN committee documents?

Do you understand that these prove that devolution was forced on the labour government by the council of europe and that it wanst their idea.

That they were forced into this by the scotland UN committee.
78

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 08:18:04
81
Presumably all of it.

The situation as I understand it,is that Westminster cannot allow Scotland to introduce fair taxation,because England will want it also and it screwes up Broon/Darling's intended tax bribes which are what they mean by a relaunch in the Autumn.
The money was always part of the Scottish Block Grant,which was itemised in previous years,as I understand it.You could clearly see it was included!

That was changed to a total only,thus facilitating the claim (which is another pack of LABOUR LIES )that this was a seperate item and only payable under Council Tax.
The claim that this is a seperate ring fenced payment is garbage,and was payable under council tax and rates before that,and there is no reason why it cannot be paid under a Local Income Tax ,other than it does not give Brown/Darling the opportunity to bribe you before going to the polls to save as many of their own fat rears and scrawny necks as possible.
If there were, why do the Lib Dems also favour this taxation?

Clearly like most of Labours claims its total nonsense and aimed at their own supporters most, most of whom they obviously consider to be too stupid to know any better.
I think a lot of people are seeing through Labour for the self serving quisling highland dancers that they surely are.They do NOT represent poor people,they get rich at their expense, whilst claiming to act on their behalf.They are the lowest form of life on the planet!
79

Venachar,

18/08/2008 08:28:59
The Monroe doctrine was that one navy could beat any two other navies at one time.

The Gray doctrine is for any two political parties to beat one party sometime maybe.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.
80

Bob M,

Paisley 18/08/2008 08:37:30
Hard to believe "Scotland United" was only a decade or so ago...

81

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/08/2008 08:39:35
From today's Guardian

A former Labour cabinet minister has declared that he is paid £36,000 a year for providing an estimated three hours a week advice after coming under investigation for allegedly breaching the peers' code of conduct.

Jack Cunningham is the 'working class' hero in question.
82

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 08:44:43
85 sm753

you are the one thats deluded so you have also read the 1993 veinna declaration that started the whole monitoring process of pluralist democracy?

You will also have read the documents from the council of europe for 1992 onwards before the other countries joined when they only had observor status.

Because obviously your going to go right now and read them?

and then of course you will come right back and tell us what they say?

Unless you can come up with a fOI document that disproves the scotland UN commitee documents then you are the one thats the fool.
83

karinxxx,

18/08/2008 08:48:36
85 sm753 these documents prove that it was the scotland UN committee and not the labour party that were responsible for devolution in scotland. There are others which will be released in time. these are still classified.
84

ReverinBlueJeans,

Ayrshire 18/08/2008 08:59:30
Scotsman seems to have decided who they're backing for the leadership contest judging by column inches given to the three candidates. Almost all to Gray, almost none to the rest.
85

Jimmy Le Pie,

18/08/2008 08:59:40
From the Telegraph

Labour chiefs are resigned to losing the upcoming Glenrothes by-election and are instead concentrating on limiting the damage caused to Gordon Brown's leadership by the expected defeat.

Yes, the Party and Gordon are far more important than any of the electorate.

Vote SNP, the ONLY party for ALL the people of Scotland
86

Doh,

18/08/2008 09:07:31

It used to be vote Labour and get Tory policies
but now it is going to be vote Tory and get Labour policies.

And of course the Nats are quite happy to deal with the Tories.

I tell you that David Cameron is a political giant.
His smile has enchanted the world.
Just like Blair.
87

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:11:15
What an admission!

Iain Gray must be a very naive politician if he actually believes that the Scottish Electorate would agree to this cockamamie proposal?

In making public this ludicrous proposal he has only shown how weak and desperate leading members of the Labour Party and their advisors in Scotland have become!

Informal pacts, cross-party agreements, and shared aims with the Scots Tories must depress many Labour supporters who are looking for real leadership from the likes of Mr. Gray, not surrender to the Nationalists!

Does the Labour Party in Scotland have a death-wish?
The geriatric Scots Tory Party self-imploded because it refused to face up to the urgent need for constitutional change, and as a result its politicial power base was destroyed overnight.

Does the Labour Party in Scotland wish to suffer from the same fate?

88

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:14:21
97 Mr. Lachie Todd,Edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:11:15
89

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/08/2008 09:16:14
Labour + Conservative = 62 seats. They would need the support of others!
90

Ian C,

Fife 18/08/2008 09:16:55
Instead of Labour and the Tories ganging together to get the SNP shouldn't they try and help them make Scotland better ? Or is that a too adult thing to do ?

For once, people in Scotland believe they now have a Government which is truly interested in them.

Labour cannot accept that the days of the "People's Democratic (aye, rigth) of Lanarkshire et al" have got. In 50 years they done nothing for Scotland but kept Labour alive/in power in England.
91

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 18/08/2008 09:18:57
In any case, I can't see Annabel going along with it. She was mightily p1ssed off by the way she was treated in the setting up of the Calman Commission.

Labour have proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
92

,

18/08/2008 09:19:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
93

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:26:09
97 Mr. Lachie Todd,Edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:11:15

Again!
They dont want it to happen, but...................
they are privately resigned to the inevitability of it happening anyway,which is tantamount to the same thing in a way.

They are desperate and this (like devolution) buys them some time which is all that Labour have left,and precious little of it.

They are a party of opposition and they know it!The problem is its in the interests of all three London parties to deny Scotland as much as possible.They are united by their anti Scottishness.Labour are still seen as the least guilty of being anti Scottish.
They will suffer the same fate as their Tory friends and presumably see the combined strength of this unholy alliance as the only way to stop the SNP, and they will have to take independence via the FTTP system or a referendum therefore,with absolutely a total betrayal of the people and democracy a price they would willingly pay!

Such is the democracy of our Westminster rulers.

Sod the people .
Its the classic case of Mind over Matter.
Gordon disnae mind.The people dinnae matter!
THE PEOPLE WILL DECIDE and when they do,it shall be.
End of Debate.
94

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 18/08/2008 09:38:08
That Labour could join forces with the Tories should come as no surprise. The unionists are prepared to abandon any values and principles in an increasingly desperate attempt to save the United Kingdom.

The LibDems showed the way by their contemptible willingness to fail to support the chosen government of the Scottish people, after having spent eight years in coalition with a party that supported the Iraq war and the basing of Trident missiles in Scotland. The union was more important to them than the obscenity of Iraq and weapons of mass destruction in our beautiful Scottish waters.

As the 2010 referendum approaches, expect the worst from these carpetbaggers, and be prepared to counter it. The spectre of Vidkun Quisling has been raised in our country. Don't let it stalk the land.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/users/moridura

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OARvE4ZzMCY
95

,

18/08/2008 09:40:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
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96

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 18/08/2008 09:41:07
Labour merging with the Conservatives makes sense - they are the same party now anyway. Perhaps the English flavours could do the same thing and Gordo could beg Dave Cameron to be kept on as a deputy PM.
97

morris,

edinburgh 18/08/2008 09:42:42
102 Angus Mannie,Montrose 18/08/2008 09:19:21


Very true Angus! Brill innit!
One thing that they must surely now realise is that the SNP will not consider doing anything detrimental to Scotland and her people,since we do not content ourselves with power at Holyrood (as in devolved mkI or MkII etc).We seek absolute control and independence,and if we fail to act in Scotland's best interests its because we are limited by the block grant funding, or overuled by the three london quisling parties.
The SNP will never press the self destruct button.
Even our village idiots should be able to work that one out!
Scottish we are and Scottish we remain and proud of it.
We may be a minority government at Holyrood but we are a government elect also!
Labour Tory and Lib Dem are merely enacting delaying tactics, which were probably discussed unofficially as in an unholy, but neccessary alliance,many years ago.
All three knew that whilst they would oppose each other at Westminster as always,here in Scotland they could jump into bed with each other as and when demanded by their Westminster masters.
They deserve each other!
The timetable has accelerated certainly but this was always going to happen at some stage.

Your move Scotland!
Its Time .
98

Alan B,

18/08/2008 09:50:38
There is not really much between the parties in the scottish parliament given its limited powers ie they basically have a fixed budget set by someone else which they then have to spend.

Also labour have ditched most of there values and any view of being a socialist party. As such it makes sense for them to try to cosy up with other parties. I think on many issues we can see the lib dems and snp are closer while the tories and labour share a similar view on certain issues. In many ways it actually shows that labour are growing up. It is also shows a maturing of the scottish parliament.

The biggest problem i had with what Grey said was that labour were interested in lowering council tax. in power many agree it has gone up too far too fast. As such that just seems like a clear lie. The thing about labour is they alway seems to have a problem with basic honesty.

I think labours move here is due the the