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Monday, 12th May 2008 Change Date

Free A to Z of Scotland's Munros
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1

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:02:58
Totally unacceptable. The unionist parties should dig their heels in.
2

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 00:06:01
AM2

What is totally unacceptable?
3

,

27/03/2008 00:07:13
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4

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:07:19
That major constitutional change should come about through a minority vote.
5

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 00:07:46
#1

They can't dig in their heels because they're quaking in their boots.
6

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:08:33
But anyway, it's not going to happen. What a chancer Salmond is though!
7

Senga Jean,

Scotland 27/03/2008 00:09:14
This a democratic choice forced on the SNP by the Unionists. The SNP wished a straight "yes" or "no" to independence but the Unionist opposition did not like the conversation so started their own discussion. The SNP were forced to include their concerns. The people will decide by voting. It is not a minority view if preferences of the people are being considered.
8

peteedinburgh,

Edinburgh 27/03/2008 00:09:30
Yup Nice try but a bit obvious.

If 23% support independence and 77% some other option then give them 4 other options. Each one gets ~19% and, there you are, independence is the winner!

Hopefully even Scottish Politicians will spot this one

9

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:12:04
#5 Jackie Priest

Nonsense. With only 23% "first choice" support for independence, Salmond is clutching at straws - and very obviously so.
10

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 00:13:44
AM2

So is it acceptable for Independence ("major constitutional change") to come about through a majority vote?
11

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

27/03/2008 00:14:24
Seems very fair and democratic to provide an option for those not yet convinced by the arguments for full independence but not happy with the status quo. Baby steps. If unionists are against this it's because they know that the status quo option has no support.
12

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 00:18:05
#9

So why's it totally unacceptable then?

13

,

27/03/2008 00:18:34
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14

clochoderic,

27/03/2008 00:18:55
Before this thread degenerates into the usual uncouth and badly punctuated slagging match can I ask any supporters of Labour, Tory or Lib Dem to explain exactly what it is that they propose for the future of Scotland?
All three of their leaders were given several opportunities to make at least some suggestion last night on national television.
We know what Salmond is proposing - so what do they want?
15

TommyKaye,

UK 27/03/2008 00:19:37
Despite the majority of the people being against the Iraq invasion it happened

Despite the majority of the people being against the EEC Constitution and a promise to have a referendum by Prime Minister Brown it went ahead.

So I suppose we reap as we sow AM2

By the way here are a couple of nice links about Scotland hope you enjoy the rapturous support Scotland is getting in England.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2008/03/bye_bye_barnett.html

http://in-ger-land.blogspot.com/


16

Shellfishfarmer,

Inverness 27/03/2008 00:20:27
Surely the obvious thing to do in a constitutional vote is to use STV to find out what people's preferences are, then seek a straight vote on the two winning options. It is what the French do in Presidential elections.
17

,

27/03/2008 00:21:35
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18

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:21:50
#10 Andrew BOD

Yes of course, but Salmond has committed a major tactical blunder with this one. The STV proposal will be seen by most people as undemocratic. I can now confidently predict that 2010 will come and go without a referendum.
19

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 00:25:14
AM2

You forget that it was a minority vote that took Scotland INTO the union (an extreme minority).

It would be rather fitting, a sort of poetic justice, if a minority took us out.
20

,

27/03/2008 00:25:24
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21

Jimmy the Pie,

27/03/2008 00:28:03
AM2,

Will you be staying on in an independent Scotland??
22

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:31:19
#12 Jackie Priest

Are you serious? Are you really so wrapped up in what you consider to be the inalienable superiority of your constitutional preference that you would you be prepared to accept a minority vote (23%, say) to bring it about?

I wouldn't accept that for *any* such change, whether my preferred option or not.
23

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 00:32:39
AM2

When can we have that majority vote then, because the other three parties don't want it at all?

And in their 'Review/Commission", they also wish to disregard the views of at least 23% of the electorate but as much as all of those who voted for the SNP last May, which was a damn sight more than 23%. That is even more divisive and contemptible than what the First Minister is proposing.
24

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:33:22
#19 Jackie Priest

Erm, Universal suffrage came rather later. Please save your silly contrived arguments for someone who can't see through them. Thanks. :-)
25

Mr Scotland,

Scotland 27/03/2008 00:33:34
1 AM2 - Are you so sad that you sit here night after night waiting to be the first to post. It astounds me that peoples lifes are so shallow and without meaning.

Now to the story.

Why can't the people of Scotland decide on their future? If the independence question is such a forgone conclusion to defeat then why are all the parties running scared from people actually registering their preference.

As Mr Priest says it was a bunch of Lords and landowners who soold our country out for spoils so why can't a majority decide it's future.

21- Hope not. Scotland has enough psycophants and hangers on.
26

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 27/03/2008 00:34:17
21....I hope he does..then he will see first hand what Scotland Should be like.
27

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:35:06
#23 Andrew BOD

Timing is everything. The Constitutional Commission will report and each party will formulate its policy. Then ask me again.
28

Mr Scotland,

27/03/2008 00:35:17
24- please leave out your erronious and confabulated statistics for those of us who can actually count.
29

clochoderic,

Renfrewshire 27/03/2008 00:36:17
Tommy i read the Robinson blog too - a salient reminder of the inherent need for Scottish Labour to pander to metropolitan ignorance and arrogance once they are promoted to the Westminster trough.
30

Wardog,

Buckie 27/03/2008 00:36:32

Hootsman - Mayday Mayday!

ooooo....the unionists are ina right panic....
31

subrosa,

27/03/2008 00:37:57
# 18 AM2 -The STV proposal

It was a suggestion, not a proposal. You try to be so clever with words.

32

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:37:59
#28 Mr Scotland

Does denying reality come naturally to you? Which statistics?
33

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:38:29
#31 subrosa

It was a wood, not trees. Is that Salmond-speak?
34

,

27/03/2008 00:39:56
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35

Mr Scotland,

27/03/2008 00:41:25
32 - BAM2 - the ones you were spouting last night about 74% against a referendum and independence by virtue of the votes at holyrood. you Tumshie.
36

Wardog,

Buckie 27/03/2008 00:41:37

Salmond said, and I quote

"Our preference is a straight choice for independence," Mr Salmond said. "But another way to do it if you've got another choice is 1, 2, 3. People are handling the idea of STV very well, so why shouldn't it be used? The idea that Scotland is not capable of engaging in a debate, crystallising choices and then making a decision, is nonsense."

Which don't you agree with AM2?
37

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:41:46
#30 Wardog

It's the SNP which is now on the ropes. The Constitutional Commission is underway, and there's a good chance that the three unionist parties will forge consensus among themselves. In that scenario, the SNP would be marginalised.
38

walter,

27/03/2008 00:42:10
I have posted this on another thread but I will also post it here.

This multi choice question is not what I would say is the way to go.
There should be two voting slips or one slip split in two.
The main question should ask,
1. Should Scotland become an independent state.
2. Should Scotland remain with in the UK.
People can then tick the box next to whatever their choice is.
Then the secondly question should ask if Scotland is to remain in the UK framework in what form should that take, more power, less power, status quo or hand power back to Westminster.
That way those who wish to remain in the UK will have a say in what form devolution take and those who wish independence (if it goes against them) will still have a say in which form devolution takes.
39

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 00:42:11
#24

Er, I think you missed my point. Scotland was forced into the union undemocratically.

However, since the right to vote was made available to all, and in the aftermath of the catastrophic first half of the twentieth century, Scotland is recovering its poise and the poepple are now regaining what was taken away from them through the undemocratic processes of yore.

Salmond's proposals are perfectly democratic. What you don't understand is that many people who favour more powers for devolution are gradualists who would love nothing better than a nice smooth transition to independence.

You are squirming, AM2. Squirming like one of the defeated, which is what you are. Defeated. Independence is coming and the poeple of Scotland are loving it.


40

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:42:32
#35 Mr Scotland

I didn't say that. Please check.
41

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

27/03/2008 00:42:40
#18 How can anyone see it as undemocratic? A democracy gives everyone the right to be involved in the decision-making. A simple Yes and No vote could be seen as alienating people who are not convinced one way or the other - either forcing them to make a choice or to not take part. I see this as more democratic.

As for 23%. Let's say Independence got 23%, more powers got 60% and status got 17% - not too far fetched IMO - it's fair to say that a fair proportion - let's say a conservative 50% - could be quite keen on independence but just decided not to go for it. I think if Scotland did get independence with a minority of 23%, another 15% of voters could be quite happy with that, even if they didn't vote for it. Canada, for example, is being run by a government that took just 36.3% of the vote. I myself have not quite made my mind up, but would not be devastated if it happened.
42

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 00:44:19
God, that fat ****** is becoming a bore now.

Independence is dead. No-one cares.

Mind you, as it is precisely this arrogant grandstanding that is bringing about plummeting support for the SNP and for independence itself......you carry right on, Toady!
43

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 27/03/2008 00:45:14
Let's just go for the yes no option and see the 83% who voted for the Scottish Parliament return the same vote for INDEPENDENCE, and finally get rid of the unionist wingers once and for all.
44

Wardog,

Buckie 27/03/2008 00:45:21
#37 AM2

Oh AM2 you rascal.... the opposition aprties are floundering, come November and the "best Wee Commission's' interim report, wait and see the bright red flares go up form the Labour Camp....or will it be bright yellow Flares from the Liberals when they realise the limited scope that is being looked at.....the Tories are down in the engine room and won't escaper in time in any event.....

AM2, will you be up high on lookout for the independence iceberg?

What's that, yes I can hear the foghorn too.....




45

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 00:45:27
27 AM2

I was really interested in your opinion now, not once the review is complete. I think by then I will have worked out what the outcome will be.

Also, you didn't respond to my second point, where I implied that the review excludes a large body of opinion in Scotland, and is therefore undemocratic. This will also give it less of a mandate to implement any outcomes/actions.



46

AM2,

Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:46:24
#34 Mr Scotland

Ah, the insults start. The inevitable nationalist abuse of anyone who disagrees.

Not interested. Goodnight.
47

Robert,

Kirriemuir 27/03/2008 00:48:06
We cannot keep complaining like a bunch of Cinderellas/fellows about our lot without taking the 'bit between our teeth'. Whether others like it or not we are destined to get independence and that is inevitable so let us go along that road and hopefully become an equal partner in the EU rather than being treated like the full stop at the end of the sentence as we are in the Union.
48

Mr Scotland,

27/03/2008 00:52:09
AM2 - m post was refering to your staement "Erm, Universal suffrage came rather later. Please save your silly contrived arguments for someone who can't see through them. Thanks. :-) "

I was asking if you could leave out your statistical confabulations whuich are numerous and proved wrong.

I witnessed you being asked by a professional statistician some time ago asking you not to mis represent figures. To which you climbed down most ungraciously.
49

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 00:52:23
"The Scottish Government wants to hold a referendum in 2010, aware that if the opposition parties vote the plan out, the SNP will be able to go into the 2011 election accusing its opponents of denying the public its right to decide Scotland's future."

Yeah, that'll be an election-winner! Not the worsening public services as the SNP tries to plug the black hole caused by LIT (if it even gets introduced), not the frustration of having had to listen to four years of senseless banal complaints about the UK, not having to tolerate being the butt of jokes as 'those whinging Scots' by the rest of the world......no, it'll be not being allowed to have a referendum.
50

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 00:52:34
42 High and Mighty

I think "SNP support plummeting" and "Independence dead" prove that you are way out of touch. Your abusive remarks about AS demean your own character and mean nobody will ever take you seriously.

Out of touch and abusive: can't get much worse than that.
51

Mr Scotland,

27/03/2008 00:53:07
#46 - Your condicension is the only insult.
52

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 00:54:56
Where are these polls saying the majority of scots want a referendum?
53

Mr Scotland,

27/03/2008 00:55:07
46 -BAM2 - Of he goes crying like a girl into his Wendy Alexander comemorative pillow and duvet set.
54

,

27/03/2008 00:55:46
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55

Navvy,

27/03/2008 00:55:58
Democracy - any decision on independence can be by a majority on a single simple question
56

Sanny,

Portugal 27/03/2008 00:57:57
May I remind AM2 and other’s who seem to have forgotten the 1979 Referendum on Independence, when the yes vote (for Independence) was 51.6%. It was government chicanery that set the vote aside.

In a straight Yes-No vote, the Unionists know that Independence will once again win the day and they would never get away with a repeat of the 40% rule or the chicanery that went with it. Fake electoral rolls would quickly be exposed and the European Council would be watching.

AS has the Unionists between a rock and a hard place. He has manoeuvred them into a position where to not agree to a referendum would hand the SNP a huge advantage in going into the Holyrood election. They may play around with the questions to their heart content, but they are hoist by their own petard with the AS offer of STV on a multiple question ballot paper. STV was considered good enough for Labour to introduce for local elections and is a primary policy of the LD’s. It really is consensus politics in action.

I think it is time to sort out the P45’s for the Westminster Politicians.
57

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 00:58:26
#46

Ah, the insults start indeed AM2.

Check our your ally at #42

Please do not do play the weepy puppy and point accusing fingers at the independistas and labelling them as abusive rabidoos.

There are some, I know, and I indulge in the odd piece of "flyting" myself now and again.

But Highland Blighty, a ture blue unionist, is the worst offender of all.
58

,

27/03/2008 00:58:44
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59

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 01:00:35
#52

Where are the polls saying they don't?
60

,

27/03/2008 01:01:07
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61

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:03:00
50. "SNP support plummeting"
SNP lead over Labour has dropped 4% in 4 months, quite possibly the shortest political honeymoon on record.

"Independence dead"
1. 99.5% of the population has not bothered to read the SNP's much-publicised White Paper.
2. 99.999% of the population has not bothered to post anything on the National Conversation.
3. The Scottish Convention's much-publicised and much emailed worldwide petition is CLAIMED to have 3400 signatures (even though the linked petition clearly has only 400 signatures). Even if every signatory was Scottish, that's still only 0.0006% of the population.
4. Support for independence has dropped to 23% and support for the UK has risen to 76% despite Salmond's constant efforts to get us to resent the UK.

See what I mean?

(I just love posting all that!)
62

CRAGman,

27/03/2008 01:03:27
The real question is which parts of Scotland might become independent. I guess that some parts would opt to remain within the UK. Like the referendum which established the Scottish Parliament we would surely see large differences in views across various regions of Scotland. Would Edinburgh and the south-east opt to stay in the UK while Glasgow would want to be independent, for instance? Inverness might also be an interesting situation.

The parallel with Kosovo and Macedonia is of some relevance here.

Finally, SNP claims on Berwick add further complexity to the whole question - I guess the referendum would have to be held there as well as within Scotland proper.
63

,

27/03/2008 01:03:44
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64

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:04:40
59. That's actually a an intelligent post for you.

Now, where are these polls?
65

clochoderic,

27/03/2008 01:04:55
Am2 why do the opposition parties have to ask a doctor what they should do?
There isny a wee problem with their self-esteem or vision i hope. Maybe it is an inability to face up to past failures or even decide what they want now.
Anyway it is gratifying to see them take a sick line from nice Doctor Calman.
Shame they have to wait until November for his diagnosis.
66

Sanny,

Portugal 27/03/2008 01:05:31
52 Highland Mighty
The only time in recent years that a real poll has been held on Independence was the referendum in 1979 that was 51.6 in favour – 50% plus one vote is a majority. Since that time we thinking Scots have been made aware of the lying, cheating and conniving antics of both Labour and Tory governments. The McCrone Report and the fake figures of the GERS for starters!

Start doing some basic research into the pros and cons of the UNION!

67

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 01:07:20
AM2

What is it with you?

We were having a sane discussion and you rudely skulked off to bed without answering my question which was posed twice.

Are you still there?
68

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:09:51
66. So there are NO polls that show the majority want a referendum?
69

ruglenn,

A proud, and soon-to-be independent, nation! 27/03/2008 01:10:22
On page 1 of to-day's Scotsman website, the story "Minority vote could take Scotland out of the Union" is headlined FOUR times - presumably on the basis that the more it is repeated, the more your readers will be seduced by your amateurish tactics. Journalistic, attempted brainwashing at its crudest and most pathetic! You truly are exhibiting all the classic signs of panic!

This is for me the final straw. I hope many other of your readers follow my example and NEVER again read your biased, pompous, political scaremongering.

Bring on Independence and "Let Scotland Flourish"!



70

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:11:54
66. The 1979 referendum was on independence, was it?
71

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 01:12:16
#64

You wouldn't know how to define intelligence.

#61

For someone so assured of the infallibility of their pretend figures (I recall the poll as asking "do you want more powers for devolution" not "do you support the UK?", to which 45% of your imaginary 76% support for the UK said Oh yes), why are you so scared of a referendum?

You are like a chicken running around looking for a place to lay an egg without realise that your actually a big cock.



72

Toots - Sheila,

27/03/2008 01:13:46
Does anyone else remember those "heady days" when the voting system was changed by the then Labour Party (Mr Callaghen) to it NOT being "first past the post" for a ONE-OFF vote on Scottish devolution?
Remember how if you didn't vote that was a NO vote which ultimately meant that on some voting registers even the dead voted for "unionism"!!!
Ultimately if Westminster keeps mucking around with the democratic system (as it did in the last round of elections) that will leave the Scots one option - fight them in the streets!! Well it worked in Kosovo and they had to "borrow" a flag and a constitution!!
Free Scotland NOW!
73

Jackie Priest,

27/03/2008 01:14:14
Do you think this is some kind of omen?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/south_of_scotland/7315260.stm
74

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 27/03/2008 01:14:34
60 Mr SCOTLAND..Ithought AM2 WAS the editor of the Hootsmon.
75

Sanny,

Portugal 27/03/2008 01:14:44
62 CRAGman

Quote/ “Finally, SNP claims on Berwick add further complexity to the whole question - I guess the referendum would have to be held there as well as within Scotland proper.” \Unquote

Get your facts right! The SNP made no claims on Berwick – it was Berwick that held a mini poll and voted to try to join Scotland. The purpose of the huge publicity given to this story was to drag a red herring across the Independence argument.
76

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 01:15:06
H&M 61

Your arguments and stats are immature, misleading and unsubstatiated. I mean "support for the UK has risen to 76%?" Was that a real question? I don't think so. And what has support for full independence fallen from? And what was the share of the vote at the Holyrood election for Labour and SNP compared to what it is now?

I go back to what I said earlier. Out of touch. (I'm waiting for the abuse.)
77

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:15:08
So there is no evidence that the majority of the population even want a referendum?
78

Feenon,

Edinburgh 27/03/2008 01:15:10


From the article -

Scottish ministers believe they would be acting within the law – but this is merely the basis of their legal advice and this position has not been tested in the courts.

Yet again we see Hootsman journous using terms like 'believe' and 'merely' in relation to the SNP whilst all the other parties appear to be without a single blemish!!

The law-breaking SCOTLab Leader ought to be prodded in every quote; the Lib bypass diverter also has problems to be pointed out; and Annabel (bless her) is on a lost cause anyway....

Read 'The Poisonwood Bible' to find out what democracy really means, my friends - if we all have to decide on one course of action for all we will be caught out by no momentum at all. We cannot ever have a traditional more than 50% decision - Westminster made sure of this in the basis for our 'permission' to govern ourselves.

In the meantime, North Sea Oil is draining away...

Will Britain be quite so great when it has gone???

Where will the money from Westminster go then???

We have a few more years to use our natural resources for good, or for London.

I know where I would prefer that money to go to.

79

Mr Scotland,

27/03/2008 01:15:35
69- That is why the paper is an insult and complete oxymoron.

The people of Scotland should march on their offices to demand they grow up and stop trying by infantile means to scare and gerry mander. The job of the press is to report facts not whip up hysteria.

The Herald must laugh their socks of at this infantile journalism.
80

Traquir,

Alba 27/03/2008 01:17:40
Alex seems to have upset the Unionista cartel :) What
exactly do they fear by not even mentioning,
debating or horror of horrors voting on
the dreaded I word ? They all seem to be protesting
too much here - they must personally have something to
lose here - peerages perhaps; their masters losing
Scottish revenue (e.g. from Oil & whisky); the ability
to pretend to be in power against the wishes of the
Scottish people ?
Perhaps they need to start putting Scotland's interests
first and foremost above all else including their
selfish desires and the needs of their beloved Union.
81

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:19:34
76. Greater devolution without independence - 45%
The status quo - 22%
Scrapping Holyrood completely - 9%
So 'staying with the UK' = 76%

Independence = 23%

Support for independence pre-election was 29%

Next!
82

Castaway,

27/03/2008 01:20:31
Let us not forget the Labour Party received 43.2% (1997),40.7%(2001) and 35.2% (2005) of the popular vote in the UK elections no wonder the LP forgot about there 1997 manifesto promise:-
From the Labour Party 1997 Manifesto - We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.The Labour Party 2001 manifesto did not make such a commitment.

83

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:20:39
WHERE ARE THE POLLS THAT SHOW THE MAJORITY WANT A REFERENDUM?

DO THEY EVEN EXIST?
84

ordinaryperson,

Greenock 27/03/2008 01:20:45
You say AM2 that a minority vote for independence is unacceptable. Yet you support a political system where the current goverment at Westminster gets a 67 seat majority on a total vote of less than 40%. Is that Democratic? No it is most definetely not and so before you lecture Nationalists on Democracy you should look at your beloved unionist way of democracy first before lecturing others. At least the SNP is willing to put their policy to the people but your Labour party is not. Don't say that there is majority of Scots against Independence by purely the amount of votes cast for the unionist parties at the last Scottish elections. Not every vote cast for them is necessarily a vote to preserve the union, just as every vote cast for the SNP in the same election is necessarily a vote for Independence
85

CRAGman,

27/03/2008 01:21:49
# Sanny - funny then that Christine Grahame played the Berwick card for all it was worth.
86

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:22:39
82. The 2003 SNP manifesto pledge re-regulation of the bus services.

This was renewed in the 2006 SNP Conference.

£600,000 later, there was no sign of it in the 2007 manifesto.
87

Edward,

27/03/2008 01:23:23
The Single Transferable Vote system was foisted on the last Scottish council elections by Labour (which was one of the reasons over the confusion as Labour instigated two different voting systems for the Holyrood and council elections which they had on the same day!)
Now apparently Labour and the other London managed parties see this as undemocratic!
The fact of the matter is that the STV system would actually favour the increased powers option over everything else. This paper and others in the media are a bit misleading when they state that it would let in Independence by 'the back door' either they think were stupid, or there very thick as to not be able to work out the permutations!
For example those that favour Independence, would have Independece as 1 and Increased powers as 2 ; those who favour increased powers but not independence, would place Increased powers at 1 and status quo 2 ; some may have increased poers at 1 and independence at 1; those who favour status quo will place status quo at 1 and increased powers at 2. As it is it is likely that the vote for status quo would drop out and the second (or transferable vote would go to increased powers.
The only way the country would vote for independence, would be if well over 50% placed independence as 1.
But the unionists keep telling us that only 23% (or there abouts) want independence. So why are unionists so afraid of a referendum, especially one under the STV system. To use an Americanism, 'the bases are loaded' in favour of increased powers!
88

Traquir,

Alba 27/03/2008 01:23:40
As for these Unionistas harping on about
democracy they are nothing more than hypocrites

As Sanny pointed out in the 1979 devolution referendum
Scots voted 51.6% in favor for a parliament. Labour
manipulated Democracy so that instead 62.7% of
those who voted would have to vote yes. Consequently
Scotland was left unprotected to be systematically
raped by the Thatcher era.

Clearly Unionistas put the Union way above the
interests of Scotland and that will be their
ultimate downfall.
89

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

27/03/2008 01:23:49
#81 And yet 47% voted for a party with the stated aim of independence for Scotland in last year's elections, with most people thinking they're doing a pretty decent job:

"Over the last 10 months the SNP has focused on trying to prove itself a party of government and has secured record approval ratings. Recent poll findings have shown a rise in SNP popularity as many of the concerns people had about a nationalist administration have subsided and been replaced by a renewed spirit of entrepreneurialism."
Guardian March 23rd, 2008
90

Jwil,

27/03/2008 01:24:24
Nicol, I would say that it more of a clever Salmond than a red herring.
91

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:24:45
Well, well, well!

These polls don't actually exist, do they!

LOL!
92

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

27/03/2008 01:25:56
#83 See #89. 47% voted for the party proposing a referendum and polls suggest they are more popular now.
93

Sanny,

Portugal 27/03/2008 01:25:59
68 Highland Mighty,

I think this comment is akin to the question “Have you stopped beating your wife”? Polls are never a particularly good way to judge the real depth of feeling, much depends on the way the question is put and any response is not a considered opinion. In addition it only gives the instantaneous opinion of a very small group of people. With a Referendum the Pros and Cons are argued through in the pub, the home, on TV and the newspapers. The electorate has the arguments and the time to come to a considered view. The result is the considered opinion of the entire Electorate.

If you can’t tell the difference then I can only think that you must be a sad Unionist hiding from the truth.
94

Edward,

27/03/2008 01:28:28
#81 Highland Mighty
Put your money where your mouth is and support a referendum based on the STV system. If your correct, the country will go for increased powers and independence will not get a look in. Then the arguement will be over for another 10 to 20 years!
So, what will it be? Are you brave enough to go for it, or are you just a sham?
My money is on you being a wimp! What have you to loose, support a referendum and lets move forward
95

subrosa,

27/03/2008 01:28:29
# 33 AM2

You don't confuse me, I'm too long in the tooth. You know full well what 'proposal' means in political terms. That is what you insinuated. Alex Salmond made a suggestion - ok.
96

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:29:08
47%???
97

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:30:38
94. There is clearly no support for a referendum, so why should anyone who is anti-independence support one?
98

GeorgeCowieOrWalterKidd?,

27/03/2008 01:32:07
#96 Sorry 31%, 47 seats. I'd put money on them getting a majority in an election tomorrow though, given that they've proved they can govern and Labour stock has fallen even further.
99

Highland Mighty,

27/03/2008 01:32:58
It's late and some of us have jobs.

Night all!

All this nat talk about the "majority wanting a referendum"! LOL!
100

,

27/03/2008 01:34:41
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101

urban poacher,

Edinburgh 27/03/2008 01:34:57
since very few read the Scotsman the article is going to have no effect. Independence is going to happen ad no one can stop it. like the EU it is a gradual process changing slowly.
102

,

27/03/2008 01:35:30
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103

Edward,

27/03/2008 01:36:31
#97 Highland Chicken
C H I C K E N !!!!!
104

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 27/03/2008 01:41:38
81. "Staying with the UK" wasn't a question then.

Share of vote for Labour and SNP at election: 32.3 v 32.9, compared to share of vote now?

It's not as clear as you make out - see below

Referendum - voting intention (with wording)

Yougov: (1) If the SNP leads the next Scottish government after May it intends to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. The wording of the referendum question will be very similar to this. “The Scottish parliament should negotiate a new settlement with the British government so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state”. The responses would be “Yes I agree” or “No I disagree”. On balance how would you be likely to respond? Yes I agree/ No I disagree/ Don’t know
TNS System Three: (1) The SNP have recently outlined their plans for a possible refrendum on Scottish independence in future. If such a referendum were to be held tomorrow, how would you vote? I AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state/ I DO NOT AGREE that the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the Government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state/ Don’t know
ICM: (1) Do you agree or disagree with the following statement? “The Scottish Parliament should negotiate a new settlement with the British government so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state”
Survey End Date Yes No Wouldn’t vote D/K Net
TNS System Three/Herald (1) 01/12/07 40 44 n/a 16 -4
TNS System Three/Herald (1) 23/08/07 35 50 n/a 15 -15
ICM/Scotsman (1) 30/04/07 35 55 n/a 10 -20
YouGov/Sunday Times (1) 20/04/07 33 50 n/a 17 -17

105

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 27/03/2008 01:57:14
Well unfotunatlly we all know AM2 speaks sense (at times)

Its a case of and only of,,

Bah, Bah a black sheep,
have you any wool?
Yes Alex, I have,
Three bags full.
One for my master,
One for my dame,
One for my little boy
That lives in the lane.



106

,

27/03/2008 02:01:18
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107

Castaway,

27/03/2008 02:01:49
While Conservatives and LibDems are against referendums, unless they are on Europe then why not a Scottish consultive referendum on the Lisbon Treaty ? Surely they will support the SG for a Scottish consultive referendum and then canvass for a NO vote ?

108

clochoderic,

27/03/2008 02:05:40
This is desperate stuff from the Opoosition - what do they want and why are they afraid to say it?
109

Feenon,

Edinburgh 27/03/2008 02:07:38
#104

You are right - obscure to put it mildly!!
110

,

27/03/2008 02:26:36
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111

,

27/03/2008 02:53:08
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112

Former Unionist,

27/03/2008 03:15:33
Do we not vote in political parties UK wide with less than 50% of the vote. Lets face it, if you can vote in the Labour party with less than 50% of the vote but give them the majority of seats, you can vote for independence and get it.
113

Former Unionist,

27/03/2008 03:16:34
Anyone heard anything about the court case brought by Michael Martin to stop Gordon Brown's expenses being published or finding out why Tony Blairs expnses documents were destroyed?
114

CROSSED GEORGE,

England 27/03/2008 03:19:28
What a laugh, you couldn't even hold a "normal" election in your kangaroo parliament.

How much is this going to cost us to stage, we the taxpayers of England?

You become independent, you can have Brown back as he will not be able to be prime minister of UK as a non-national - the jokes on you then!

The only benefit for us in the UK (those of us who don't have a huge chip on each shoulder) is our tax money will be spent on us, and not a load of whinging, self-satisfying, self obsessed, bigoted, boring, dour, tight and tartan skirted xenaphobics.

Do us a favour, AND GET INDEPENDENCE!



115

An Beal Bacht,

27/03/2008 03:43:04
The article reports:

"The First Minister said that, although his preference was for a clear two-option question on independence ..."

But somehow this becomes:

"REFERENDUMS are usually simply Yes or No affairs; voters are invited to approve or reject a proposal. But Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has long wanted something more complicated:"

Panic disorder?
116

An Beal Bacht,

27/03/2008 03:52:53
37 - AM2, Glasgow,UK 27/03/2008 00:41:46 writes:

"It's the SNP which is now on the ropes. The Constitutional Commission is underway, and there's a good chance that the three unionist parties will forge consensus among themselves. In that scenario, the SNP would be marginalised."

Coupla things:

First sentence indicates AM2 believes the unionists are, or were, on the ropes.

Second sentence indicates AM2 believes the unionist parties will form an anti-independence coalition.

Third sentence indicates a break with reality. The socially broad pro-independence movement would be faced with a monolithic anti-independence movement. This would not lead to the marginalization of the SNP - but the polarization of politics in Scotland.
117

An Beal Bacht,

27/03/2008 03:57:50
81 - Highland Mighty, 27/03/2008 01:19:34 writes:

"Greater devolution without independence - 45%
The status quo - 22%
Scrapping Holyrood completely - 9%
So 'staying with the UK' = 76%

Independence = 23%

Support for independence pre-election was 29%

Next!"

I think your reading that wrong.

What the numbers indicate is that 68% are in favour of, or leaning towards, independence, while 31% oppose independence.

Next!