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SNP to woo Lib Dems on local income tax plans



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Published Date: 08 August 2008
SNP ministers are prepared to do a deal with the Liberal Democrats which could see every council in Scotland set its own income tax rate, it emerged yesterday.
The Scottish Government wants to introduce a nationally-set local income tax of 3p in the pound to replace the council tax, but its proposals have come in for heavy and sustained criticism since their publication earlier this year.

Business groups
, councils, some unions, student groups and opposition politicians have all railed against the proposals, championed by John Swinney, the finance secretary, claiming that they will not raise enough money and will damage the economy.

However, it is now understood that ministers are prepared to change their plans to secure the parliamentary backing they need.

As the SNP is running the Scottish Government as a minority administration, it needs the support of one of the other main parties to get its plans through. The Lib Dems support the principle of a local income tax, but are adamant that it must be set locally, by individual councils, rather than by the Scottish Government at 3p in the pound.

All three contenders for the leadership of the Scottish Lib Dems confirmed yesterday that this remained their position, and all insisted that they would not compromise on the principle of a "local" income tax.

But the Scottish Government, which is currently digesting the results of the highly critical consultation process on its tax plans, appears to be ready to move in the Lib Dems' direction.

A senior government source yesterday told The Scotsman that there was room for compromise on the issue.

He said Scottish ministers were "very keen" to sit down and debate the issue with the new Lib Dem leader and "discuss where this issue might go".

The source added that ministers might be prepared to accept a locally-set tax after the national tax has been allowed to "bed in" for a few years.

While the source refused to go further, his comments give an indication of the Scottish Government's willingness to move, at least some way, towards the Lib Dems' position.

However, ministers were warned by business leaders last night that this would be "even worse" for the country because it would lead to more bureaucracy and confusion.

Colin Borland, from the Federation of Small Businesses in Scotland, said his organisation was already opposed to the SNP's plans for a nationally-set tax, because of the impact it would have on businesses and taxpayers.

But he said that, if the SNP compromised its plans and agreed to the Lib Dems' demands for a locally-set tax, it could lead to 32 different rates, one for each council area in the country.

Mr Borland said: "The big fear is over the cost of bureaucracy. It will be bad enough with one rate for the entire country, but there could be 32 different rates.

"If you have a business in Glasgow you could have three employees, one from Glasgow, one from Renfrewshire and one from East Renfrewshire. That's three different sets of paperwork."

The Lib Dems have backed the idea of a local income tax for many years. However, there were suggestions yesterday that this position might be about to change south of the Border.

Vince Cable, the party's UK Treasury spokesman, was reported to be keen on reforming the council tax, rather than introducing a whole new tax system.

But even if Mr Cable did manage to change party policy in England, it would not alter the position of the party in Scotland.

Parties agree on principle but differ on details of tax

What are the SNP's plans for a local income tax?


The SNP wants to scrap the council tax and replace it with a local income tax, set nationally at 3p in the pound.

What are the Liberal Democrats proposing?

The Liberal Democrats also favour a local income tax, but want each council to set its own rate for the tax.

What are the advantages of this?

The Lib Dems argue that there needs to be local accountability and the best way to do this is for councils to have responsibility for setting the tax rate.

What are the disadvantages?

Critics have warned that this will lead to increased bureaucracy and confusion over who should be paying which rate. There are 32 local authorities in Scotland, and it is feasible that all councils set different rates from their neighbours.

What will it mean for someone who works in one council area and lives in another?

People will pay the tax at their home address, with the information coming from their business in another area, which will inevitably lead to increased bureaucracy.









The full article contains 791 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 August 2008 9:43 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

AM2,

Scotland,UK 07/08/2008 23:53:42
The 3% fixed-rate LIT from the SNP manifesto allegedly falls foul of both the Scotland Act and the European Charter of Local Self-Government, which says:

“Part at least of the financial resources of local authorities shall derive from local taxes and charges of which, within the limits of statute, they have the power to determine the rate.”

So this isn’t news. Despite the statement by Alex Salmond’s spokesman that “the local income tax will be 3p, not any more or less”, the SNP now has few options.

But even if they can cut a deal with the Lib Dems, what of the SNP’s earlier statement that “a nationally set tax makes more sense, removing the potential additional burden of administering a range of different tax codes for their staff”?

A variable rate creates a huge burden. How would it affect our competitiveness?

And with organisations as diverse as the NUS, Scottish TUC, Unison, CBI Scotland and the Institute of Directors all having been opposed to even the simpler and cheaper form of LIT, what’s the chance of this coming to be seen as an improvement on the now discredited manifesto pledge?
2

,

08/08/2008 00:00:39
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08/08/2008 00:01:04
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08/08/2008 00:05:14
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Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 00:05:56
1 AM2, Scotland,UK 07/08/2008 23:53:42

“Part at least of the financial resources of local authorities shall derive from local taxes and charges of which, within the limits of statute, they have the power to determine the rate.”

Local Government would still collect/vary business rates and second home rates

"A variable rate creates a huge burden. "

The article reports that the SNP might be prepared to accept a locally-set tax after the national tax has been allowed to "bed in" for a few years......

Good compromise, get LIT up and running then pilot localised rates.



6

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 00:07:14

Mike Watson

7

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

08/08/2008 00:20:49

From the Scotland's People Survey 2007.
Includes all adults for whom household income is known or has been imputed.
Household income in the SHS is that of the highest income householder and their partner only


20% of Households in Scotland earn less than £10k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% is £140


20% of Households in Scotland earn £10-15k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% would mean between £140- 290


27% of Households in Scotland earn £15-25k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% would mean between £290-590


9% of Households in Scotland earn £25-30k
Band A Council Tax (Glasgow) £800
LIT @ 3% would mean between £590-740


13% of Households in Scotland earn £30-40k
Band C Council Tax (Glasgow) £1070
LIT @ 3% would mean between £740-1040


10% of Households in Scotland earn over £40k
Band D Council Tax (Glasgow) £1200
LIT @ 3% would mean between £1040 +




8

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08/08/2008 00:23:52
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9

Ken_Fitlike,

08/08/2008 00:25:28

10. Coileach

That would seem to confirm the SNP's claim that 90% of people would be better or no worse off under 3% LIT.

AM2, any comments?

10

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:26:01
9
Are you an ordinary, everyday elector?

Or just a wee bit special?
11

AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:26:30
#4 Guga II

This article was published at 9:43pm. Look at the footer.
12

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08/08/2008 00:30:27
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13

AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:30:35
Oompa Loompa, Alex Armstrong, p e c, McPravda blog, Tripod, Kandy Man and probably others are all the same person. Nothing whatsoever to do with me.

And please DON'T shut down the thread tonight.
14

AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:32:22
#12 Ken_Fitlike

Your spin would appear to be somewhat out of date.

Here’s John Swinney, speaking about the non-local Local Income Tax in June 2007: “90 per cent of Scots would benefit from our proposals.”

But here’s an SNP consultation document from March 2008: “under a LIT, 67% of Scottish households would have experienced an increase in net income.”

Not much use if it’s illegal, though. Is it?
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/08/2008 00:32:35
AM2 / Scotsman employee

What would you propose for local taxation?

Would you like to see the continuation of the unfair Council Tax?
Would you want the Council Tax to be reformed in some way. If so what?
Would you want to see the introduction of a Property or Land Tax?
Anything else?

Or are you just a partisan critic happy to snipe at any SNP policy, but unable to offer any real solutions or proposals?
16

frank mcbride,

lusitania 08/08/2008 00:33:19
# AM2.

LIT, as proposed by the SNP, is legal as there will continue to be Local taxation, variable and set locally.

17

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:34:10
11
Oompa Loompa, in the words of a great philosopher, Gettifah yebassah.
18

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08/08/2008 00:35:02
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19

ptdoug,

08/08/2008 00:35:41
If the SNP Scottish government can reach a compromise with the LibDems, who to their credit have always supported the abolition of the grossly unfair Council Tax,and come up with an acceptable, workable scheme then we will have a L.I.T.

Whether or not the current proposal of the Scottish government is workable, or whether a joint SNP/LibDem scheme would be an improvement remains to be seen.

The one thing that is certain... is that the Council Tax is an cruel abomination and needs replacing.

It would be nice if Labour could put forward some positive suggestions on this issue... work with the LibDems and the Government in the interests of the Scottish people instead of simply whining and dissing the SNP's efforts to ease the burden on pensioners and the unemployed/low paid.
20

AM2,

Scotland,UK 08/08/2008 00:37:41
#18 Andrew BOD

Yes, I like the “unfair council tax”.

I also like “illegal wars”, “taxes on ill-health”, our nuclear deterrent - sorry, I mean our “WMDs”, “London Labour”, my “war crimes”, the “anti-Scottish alliance” of unionist parties and the “historic” concordat.

Anything involving manipulative rhetoric, I like! ;-)

Enough. Goodnight!
21

Castaway,

08/08/2008 00:37:46
Local Income Tax calculator
The Scottish Government is consulting on plans to introduce a new Local Income Tax which would replace Council Tax.
Use our calculator to find out how much you would pay and give the council your thoughts.-http://tinyurl.com/5b6cpd
22

Ken_Fitlike,

08/08/2008 00:37:48
7 AM2

Which part of it’s illegal,?

Which household income / CT / LIT comparison do you disagree with in no.10's list

The consultation was published before these statistics were available.

90% of HOUSEHOLDS with 1-2 earners are earning less than £40k.

Are you refuting the Scotland's People Survey?

23

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:42:52
27
That's fighting talk where I come from Alex...
24

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08/08/2008 00:44:00
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Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 08/08/2008 00:47:11
24 AM2

You've managed to avoid the question again. The Council Tax is unfair for many people, and this has been recognised by politicians of all parties. So please don't go off in a sarcastic rant because I stated the obvious.

Just give a considered view for a change.
26

,

08/08/2008 00:51:07
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 00:57:57
34
Nothing to do with David Banks then? Hatstand.
28

,

08/08/2008 01:00:48
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:00:58
40
Bitterness?

Tell us more.
30

ptdoug,

08/08/2008 01:02:25
Knock it off Alex, please.
31

ptdoug,

08/08/2008 01:03:30
Sorry, Alex... didn't see your post#40
32

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08/08/2008 01:03:53
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:05:47
45
Yes we all know how it is done; just not why.
34

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:10:25
47
Hee Hee

I'm on a payroll, rejoice!

Er...where do I get the money...?
35

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:12:51
47
Er sorry but "do one"? I know I'm being paid and all, but...
36

ruglenn,

ruglen 08/08/2008 01:13:39
You cannot deny that this is simply another SNP piece of political brilliance!

By the way, how can I comment on Ranger's current plight and suggest a way forward for the third best team in Glasgow? I cannot believe that, not for the first time, the Scotsman is protecting the favourite team of your third rate journalist English!
37

,

08/08/2008 01:17:55
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Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:22:24
53
Or somebody who kept his eyes open?

Google me if you wish, and see such a unionist am I.
39

ptdoug,

08/08/2008 01:24:26
oh... how convenient...


Fifth of Scots households 'living on less than £10,000'
Published Date: 08 August 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL

ONE in five Scottish households is having to get by on less than £10,000 a year, according to figures published yesterday.

A survey showed 21 per cent of those questioned have a four-figure net household income – the equivalent of less than £834 a month.

A further 20 per cent of households have an income of between £10,000 and £15,000, with pensioners, single parents and single adult households the most likely to fall into the lower-income brackets.

At the other end of the scale, only 10 per cent of households have a net yearly income of more than £40,000. Separate statistics showed 41 per cent of households do not have any savings or investments.

The figures are contained in the 2007 Scottish Household Survey annual report, published yesterday by the Scottish Government. It aims to provide a snapshot of life in Scotland and an indication of various social trends. end.

We need a L.I.T. and we need it now. The above figures demonstrate quite clearly the massive number of people that need to be rescued from the unfair burden the Council Tax places upon them.

Especialy now that pensioners and the poorly paid are being blitzed by a combination of monster fuel pices, 35% hike in the cost of heating and rising food prices.

So come on Labour... if you cant lend your hand.... get out of the way.
40

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:24:48
55
Sweet zombie jebus. Grammar not blong me.
41

ptdoug,

08/08/2008 01:29:08
And yes... The times are a' changin!!!
42

Conan the Librarian™,

08/08/2008 01:38:12
54
If that is so, I can understand your hostility.

Another respected cybernat Col.Blimp has had the same problem.

But it wisnae me.
43

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 08/08/2008 02:03:50
Land Value Tax is the fair solution - I note that Vince Cable is a supporter, it is Green Party policy, and it is a truly just form of taxation, that will help stimulate the economy and create better communities.

I hope the SNP government are considering this seriously, as they negotiate with other parties.


Good links:

http://www.feasta.org/documents/landhousing/ppleaflet.pdf

http://www.libdemsalter.org.uk/Spring07GreenLVTnote.doc

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/node/2610

http://www.earthrights.net/docs/pa-farmers.html


44

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 03:49:37
*1 - They can still raise part of their finance using business rates which they can manipulate - making the 'capping' of the income tax quite above board - don't you think ?

I am all for curbing council spending infact they should be given half the budget and told to get on with it right now !! 85p in the pound get swallowed up in admin salaries and pensionsel aving 15p in the pound for 'frontline' services - now someone tell me if that represent value or not ?? - that represents, in my book, criminal neglect and top civil servants and councillors should be going to jail over this !!!
45

Rossmcl,

08/08/2008 04:02:55
This is Good news, BUT.....
SNP's 47MSPs + LibDems 16MSPs = a total of just 63MSPs. That's still not a majority in the parliament. Tories and Labour would still oppose any change, so unless the Greens come on board for LIT it's still stalemate. A decent journalist would have considered this worth mentioning, of course.
46

Castaway,

08/08/2008 04:33:07
#62:A lot depends if/when Jack McConnell takes up the position of British High Commissioner to Malawi and the SNP win his seat ? This would give the SNP+LibDems+Margo McDonald a majority plus maybe the Green Party.
47

Magic Hoops 2,

Kirkcaldy 08/08/2008 05:02:51
Think i just heard the familiar sound of AM2 and similar Unionist pappering their trollies over this article. Clearly LIT is on its way and another manifesto pledge secured through MATURE consensus with the other parties.

No backchat from Liebour i see. They must be a bit speechless.......with envy.

Well done Alex Salmond. Spin this all you like AM2. Bridges are being built in Holyrood to link up with the public opinion.

Can you smell that..niiiiiiiiiiif......victory
48

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08/08/2008 05:25:34
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08/08/2008 05:28:02
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08/08/2008 05:38:01
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08/08/2008 05:52:36
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52

Phil C,

08/08/2008 07:02:52
#1 AM2

Will you please try to stop living in the past. Remember past performance is not necessarily a guide to the future. You can dredge up all the figures you want, all the past comments you can but we are living with a minority administration and consensus politics mean that everyone should try to be flexible and change when change is called for. In this instance, even you must see the benefit of properly funded LIT.

Everything you say is concerned with preventing change, preventing progress. You are stuck in your unionist box and you really should try thinking outside of that box sometimes. You might even see the brighter future that so many expect for an independent Scotland. Only time will tell how things will turn out, but looking back is not a good option.
53

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 07:03:04
Now that AM2 has his extreme right wing website why does he bother commenting on these threads???


Could it be no one is paying any attention to his right wing drivel???
54

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 08/08/2008 07:18:42
Forget LIT. ALL taxes on income penalize hard work.

Let's go for Land Value Tax instead. All the virtues; none of the vices.
55

Tynietiger,

08/08/2008 07:22:18
W Smith is displaying his usual anti Muslim prejudices.
What the Councilor did is foolish in our eyes but a fairly normal and legal tourist attraction in parts of Pakistan.

Why no headlines every time a Tory Toff shoots a deer and the councilor's activities certainly less harmful than Brown Blair and Bush's illegal War in Iraq.
56

Rob me blind,

Peterhead 08/08/2008 07:26:21
Can you tell me what the difference is between the 'poll tax' and LIT. As I remember it the SNP rose in popularity because of their stance against the 'poll tax'.

Given the figures spouted here it would seem that local authorities would have far lower funding under LIT this would be even worse when the top from the UK purse stops, then just what will we receive for our money? Wake up and smell the coffee its time that the truth was told about this tax and just what it will really cost to make the SNP look good.

If you foolishly believe what Salmond says go speak to the people of Penan (local hero) and see how he delivers on his promises.
57

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 07:33:55
Rob Me Blind has no idea about Poll Tax which required everyone paid the same amount no matter whether they earned £10k a year or £100k a year.

Unlike Council Tax, Local Income Tax just like "National" Income Tax is the fairest way to pay for local services.
58

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 07:35:16
#73 Rob me blind,

Can't believe you don't know the difference.

Poll Tax paid regardless of financial circumstances.

LIT paid on 'earnings'

How can you find that difficult???

Alex Salmond and the SNP are increasing their popularity by delivering policies for the people of Scotland, not doing the bidding of bosses in London like the other parties.


www.snp.org
59

paulr,

edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:04:46
Council Tax is bad enough, but to allow the MORONS on Edinburgh city council to set local income tax...
Do you really want to cause the people of edinburgh kind of hardship which is guaranteed to follow?
60

paulr,

edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:06:35
If Edinburgh council get the right to set local income tax we will end up paying far more than we do in council tax.
61

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 08:12:04
W Smith 'Middle East'

You really do hate Muslims don't you?

Are you really in the Middle East or are you a sad racist sitting alone in a bed sit full of bile??
62

It wassnae me,

08/08/2008 08:36:25
Let's be clear about what the SNP are proposing:

1) LIT is a local tax which will rely on the Westminster run HMRC to collect it. Whether it is set by Councils or the Scottish Government is neither here nor there. It's collection will still depend on Westminster
2) Furthermore, the 3p figure being banded around is misleading. This figure is reliant on Westminster continuing to provide the Council Tax Rebate of circa £400mil p.a. If that rebate is not forthcoming, experts have seemingly worked out that the rate is 5p. Meaning far more people in Scotland will be worse off.

The SNP claims that it is an outrage that Westminster have already stated that the rebate will not be forthcoming. But if Scotland becomes independent there will be no tax rebate, no block grant, no nothing from Westminster because Scotland presumably will be fully indepdendent. What we need the SNP to propose is a local taxation system that operates outside the current Westminster arrangement - otherwise it will never be indepdendent!
63

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:41:54
20% of Households in Scotland earn less than £10k
Band A Council Tax (Edinburgh) £779
LIT @ 3% is £140


20% of Households in Scotland earn £10-15k
Band B Council Tax (Edinburgh) £909
LIT @ 3% would mean between £140- 290


27% of Households in Scotland earn £15-25k
Band C Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1039
LIT @ 3% would mean between £290-590


9% of Households in Scotland earn £25-30k
Band D Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1169
LIT @ 3% would mean between £590-740


13% of Households in Scotland earn £30-40k
Band E Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1428
LIT @ 3% would mean between £740-1040


10% of Households in Scotland earn over £40k
Band F Council Tax (Edinburgh) £1688
LIT @ 3% would mean between £1040 +
64

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 08:46:11
Wisnae Me. These are arguments for Independence.

If Westminster withholds Council Tax Benefit, how can Labour defend position whereby Scots Taxpayers will be subsidising English Council Tax Rebates.

Any anomalies / rebates would be ironed out if Scotland has full fiscal powers (£10 billion surplus in this financial year)
65

It wassnae me,

08/08/2008 08:52:19
#81 Linda

I think you're missing the point. Labour may defend the position whereby Scottish taxpayers are being subsidised by English Council Tax Rebates but if the SNP continue to propose a local tax that is still reliant on Westminster subsidising it and collecting it, that places right into the Unionists hands.

As for things being 'ironed out' the SNP need to do better than that. It is their lack of properly thought out policies and policies that currently result in the majority of Scots being sceptical about indepdendence (as shown in the polls) and could lead to increased devolution and not full independence if they are not careful.
66

The McKellarator,

08/08/2008 08:54:44
#1 Err AssumedMoniker2 Simple question for you.

Would you be better off under council tax or Local Income Tax?
67

tommy M,

08/08/2008 09:00:15
poll tax crippled scotland. council tax is unfair. SNP is delivering sound, solid government. Get over it unionists.

It's time.
68

bluehead,

edinburgh 08/08/2008 09:01:06
councils do enough damage to the cities of Scotland without making it any more confusing for their tiny wee brains,just look at the mess poor auld Edinburgh is in through the maniacal tram system,then imagine what they would do with the LIT,they have already demonstrated how to throw money away with the crazy tram system,so just think what they would with the LIT
69

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 08/08/2008 09:08:14
Can somebody explain how the proposed extra 3p on income tax relates to the 20% and 40% tax rates? It is added to both? If so the proportionate increase s greater for the individual paying at 20% than it ias for one paying at 40%.
70

BIG EYE,

Paisley 08/08/2008 09:14:18
Hold on a minute is this the LIT proposal that the headlines in the Unionist press told us last week the SNP were dropping?

Both stories can't be true!
71

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 08/08/2008 09:17:16
I support this but I'm now a bit worried. What if North ayrshire decide to take £1.20 in the pound which i'm sure they will try the greedy B"£S%r*s...
72

Alasdair,

08/08/2008 09:21:58
AM2 - do you work for this paper?

The reason I ask is that you frequently appear to post before midnight, e.g. "AM2,Scotland,UK 07/08/2008 23:53:42".
Now, I've tried logging in to the Scotsman's pages, and they're rarely even up by midnight. What gives?
73

David MacVicar,

web 08/08/2008 09:24:19
#1 post by AM2 is misleading. At his most honest AM2 will only post a half truth or very selective statistics.

Key words are "allegedly" and "within the limits of statute"

Allegedly = as dredged up as a gambit by those who want to keep the council tax and were desperate to find a way to stop fairer taxation. Desperate to stop it because most Scots will get a lower bill and vote accordingly. Nobody of note is banging on a drum stating that the LIT would be illegal.

This brings me nicely onto "within the limits of statute".

This means all the Scottish parliament has to do is vote to Pass the LIT and Hey Presto it is Legal. Set in law, become part of the statute.

Yes AM2, as you already know and disingenuously avoided stating, there is no illegality as soon as the SP makes it LAW.

The Scottish Parliament has control here. How could that have happened! A disaster. That must really hurt certain unionists and we can see the pain in AM2's desperate, 'clutching at straws' post.
74

Doh,

08/08/2008 09:25:48
#86

The intention is that the 3p would apply to the 20p and 40p bands. In fact this is an matter of dispute, with some claiming that the SP does not have the right to alter the 40p rate. But it does have the right to legislate for local taxtation. So it is pretty sterile argument.

It is a pity that Labour are being so immature and also threatening to withold the Council Tax rebate money. This nitpicking only highlights how out of tocuh they are. Transferring the Council Tax rebate money wouldnt cost the UK Treasury a single extra penny. So Labours oppossition is pure spite.

Trying to use these technicalities to stop a popular tax reform will backfire on Labour.
75

Publius,

08/08/2008 09:30:55
#10 Coileach an taobh Tuath

Your table is misleading. Households with low incomes are eligible for council tax relief. Those with very low incomes are eligible for 100 per cent council tax relief. I suggest you revist your table and do the necessary adjustments.
76

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:35:17
#80 Linda
How many households with an income of less than £10k pay council tax in full?
77

brownlie,

08/08/2008 09:37:57
62 Ross

So, as you claim, it would appear that Labour and the Conservatives would oppose LIT.

That would mean that the status quo would be maintained.

Following the precedent set in Wales there would, inevitably, have to be a revaluation of council tax bands which would, again inevitably, result in increases that would make the annual rises under LIB/LAB seems like small change.

Is this really going to be beneficial for Scotland.

78

David MacVicar,

web 08/08/2008 09:38:32
91 Doh. I agree and would like to add:

If Labour does stop the rebate to Scottish residents. Scottish tax paying residents will still be paying their percentage towards the council tax rebate in England, which is collected UK wide.

It would be interesting to see how Labour plan to sell that to the Scottish tax payers! I can hear Cathy Jamieson now: 'It's very, very, very simple.....I'm....socialist.....hard working families....SNP....picking fights....'.
79

JimC,

Kilmarnock 08/08/2008 09:40:56
I can't agree with every council in Scotland setting its own income tax rate. If we have not learned by now that councils can not be trusted to represent the people then you never will. Look at the abuse of RIPA by local authorities as an example. And since when did business groups, councils, the unions,act in the interests of working class people? As each council sets its budget any shortfall from that which the government allocates and which the final budget calculation requires falls onto the lap of the council tax payer. On top of that the social rent levels are set separately, again any increase due that allows councils to meet the Housing Quality standards deadline is passed onto tenants in the form of rent increases which are normally set at the rate of inflation plus 2% each and every year. For the last decade, wage increases have been nulled by the way local finances are calculated, in effect we are getting poorer year on year. This is not about local councils, its about Westminster and the Scottish Government depriving councils of the money they need to run local services. And freezing the council tax levels last year saw huge increases by all councils for many of its services across the board.
80

Peatstack,

Rural 08/08/2008 09:40:58
"20% of Households in Scotland earn less than £10k
Band A Council Tax (Edinburgh) £779
LIT @ 3% is £140"

But people earning under £10k will get 100% Council Tax rebate, therefore LIT leaves them £140 out of pocket. Hardly an improvement on the current system!

The unanswered question is: where does local government get the cash to make up the shortfall between the Council tax yield and the LIT yield?
81

Alan B,

08/08/2008 09:40:59
#Doh

"Transferring the Council Tax rebate money wouldnt cost the UK Treasury a single extra penny. So Labours oppossition is pure spite."

Could not agree more.
82

K McDonald,

glasgow 08/08/2008 09:42:53
78 Jimmy Le Pie,08/08/2008 08:12:04
W Smith 'Middle East'

Are you really in the Middle East or are you a sad racist sitting alone in a bed sit full of bile??

Jimmy, criticism of Islam and those who believe in Mohammed's revelation is not racism. Islam is not a race, it is a belief system invented in Mecca by Mohammed in the 7th century. OK?

Many people share W Smith's legitimate concern that Islamic fundamentalists have hijacked the SNP - particularly in Glasgow. Some of us are concerned that the SNP shares the same geopolitical outlook as Hamas and Iran. Some of us are concerned that the Muslim Brotherhood's frontman in Scotland has been handed the brief of disarming the UK of it's nuclear weapons. Some of us are concerned that an SNP councillor (now MSP) from Glasgow used school children to pull off a grotesque stunt in an attempt further their Islamist agenda. Some of us are concerned that (the proposed) LIT money will be used to fund madrases and the Muslim Brotherhood front group SIF. Some of us are disgusted that an SNP councillor (who has vetted Salmond's speeches to filter out "offensive" phrases) takes his children to "camps" near the Pakistani/Afghan border to shoot AK47s. Some of us are concerned that Salmond thinks that some people are more Scottish than others.

All of these are legitimate concerns and I and others will not move along because you say there is nothing to see here.

83

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:44:14
#91 Doh

The application of 3p LIT to the 40 per cent band is fundamental. If the 3p doesn't (or can't be) applied to the 40 per cent band, then the shortfall in revenue will be very much larger than even the SNP has estimated.

Moving directly to a locally determined LIT (as proposed by the LibDems) is a way of getting round the restriction on the 40 per cent band. But I can't see HMRC agreeing to run a system of local variation. They don't have the resources.

Sooner rather than later the SNP will abandon LIT.
84

Miss H,

08/08/2008 09:44:32
1 AM2 I wouldn't worry about it. Ross Finnie on Newsnight last night knew nothing about this. So it's just another Scotsman spin piece.

92 Publius. Entitlement to council tax benefit is the same as for other benefits i.e.income support, pension credit etc. So basically you need to be on those gateway benefits before you stop having to pay council tax. That means that people on a low wage or in receipt of a modest occupational pension pay full council tax because they are not entitled to income support or the guaranteed element of pension credit.

85

The McKellarator,

08/08/2008 09:47:17
#100 Publius, morning old chap. How would LIT affect your dear old mum in Girvan, would she better or worse off?
86

brownlie,

08/08/2008 09:48:55
90 David MacVicar

Interesting and significant comment that "Desperate to stop it because most Scots will get a lower bill and vote accordingly"

The converse is also true - if, as stated above, Labour and Conservatives vote against LIT most Scots will be left with the hated Council Tax, will pay bigger, perhaps much bigger, bills and will vote accordingly.

As far as those who favour LIT are concerned it's a case of heads we win, tails you lose.
87

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:50:10
#101
You've not answered my question. How many households with an income of less than £10k pay council tax in full?
88

walter,

08/08/2008 09:52:35
The CT is unfair and I do not suppose there are many who would disagree.
To replace it with a national tax (which is exactly what the SNPs proposal is) paid only by those who have a taxable income is also unfair.
A household income tax would be the fairest way for councils to collect a LIT.
The income going into a household should be calculated and a tax levied on every pound received over a set baseline.
If a baseline somewhere between six and eight thousand was set then all income into the household above that would be taxed at 3p in the £ if that was the rate set.
I would also suggest that those earning a living had there household income calculated after and not before they have paid income tax and national insurance.
89

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 09:54:59
#102

Good question. I don't know the answer, but I guess it will be pretty marginal. At present my ma lives in a Band D house, she lives alone (so she gets a 25 per cent discount on council tax) and she has a reasonable occupation pension as well as the state pension.

But the question is pretty academic. LIT will be axed.
90

Guga II,

Rockall 08/08/2008 09:57:49
Marvellous, isn't it? Make a comment in the Hootsmon about AM Squared getting his comments in before the article is actually on-line, and the Hootsmon deletes it. I suppose it helps if you work for the Hootsmon.
91

"Hoots" Fandango,

08/08/2008 10:02:57
197 Guga

Another poster used to post an hour before everyone else. He said it was simple if you knew what to do. I haven't a scooby.
92

"Hoots" Fandango,

08/08/2008 10:03:21
107 not 197

(Maybe I'm posting in advance)
93

"Hoots" Fandango,

08/08/2008 10:04:24
Regarding 107, there's a very interesting piece in Tomorrow's Scotsman. I'll post now and say I totally disagree.
94

Rossmcl,

08/08/2008 10:06:08
#94 No. I am in favour of LIT. When I said the parliamentary arithmetic wasn't there for it, I was stating as fact, not celebrating it.

As #63 says, a Motherwell by election may change that, but the 2 Greens are certainly against LIT, and so - as I understand it - is big Margo. If all 3 of them voted against LIT then an extra Nat in Motherwell still won't be enough (the vote then would be 65 against; 64 for).
95

subrosa,

08/08/2008 10:09:54
# 92 and # 93

I pay full council tax and I have earnings under £10,000. The reason? I have a small amount of savings which were intended for use during my retirement and not to pay utility and other rising bills.
96

Miss H,

08/08/2008 10:13:03
97 You are wrong on two counts. Someone earning £9000 per year living in a Band A house in Edinburgh (as in the example given) would not be entitled to council tax benefit. They would get tax credits and possibly some housing benefit depending on their housing costs but they would not get council tax benefit. As I said earlier if you are not in receipt of other income based benefits you won't get council tax benefit. So the working poor don't get it.

You are also wrong to say that people who currently get council tax benefit would lose out under LIT. Council tax benefit is not paid to individuals it is paid directly to councils. LIT will make no difference to people who are currently entitled to council tax benefit.

104 It is impossible to answer that question because it is dependent on a lot of things e.g. whether someone works full time/part time, whether they are a carer or disabled etc. But if you take the case of someone who works full time and earns £9000 they would not get council tax benefit.

There is a basic calculator here to give an indication of what benefits people might be entitled to:

http://www.entitledto.co.uk/


97

Jimmy Le Pie,

08/08/2008 10:19:55
#99K McDonald,glasgow

OK you're right I should have said religious bigot instead of racist.

As a member of the SNP I know that it isn't possible for any group to hijack the party, which is more than can be said of New Labour Sleaze.

I think Scotland has suffered far too much because of religion over the years.

Would you have been one of the visionaries who used to quote "Home Rule means Rome Rule" when asked about the SNP??
98

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 10:21:40
#113
Yu write 'if you take the case of someone who works full time and earns £9000 they would not get council tax benefit'.

I doubt there are many such people who live alone. But you are making a case for more generous benefits for people on low incomes, not for changing the tax system.
99

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/08/2008 10:22:21
#73 Rob

The individuals in Pennan who appeared on Reporting Scotland, bemoaning the state of the village hall one year after the floods need a reality check.

Everyone I have spoken to agrees that they need to get off their collective butts and tidy the hall up by themselves. From the video it appeared to have fairly minor damage.
100

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/08/2008 10:24:08
#79

An almost perfect misunderstanding of the facts.
101

The McKellarator,

08/08/2008 10:26:20
#106 Publius

Glasgow City council have this LIT calculator on their website

http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/YourHome/LocalTaxCalc/

Rather astoundingly some 82% of Glasgow resident would be better off if using LIT...

It might be a useful means of working out your mums.

Incidentally how much do you pay in that London?
102

Publius,

London 08/08/2008 10:26:42
Back to the original story. It doesn't say that the SNP will adopt the LibDem position. There is little chance that the SNP and LibDems will agree on LIT. And even if they do agree and get a bill through Holyrood, there is no chance that Westminster will help with collecting the tax.
LIT is dying.
103

It's life but not as we know it,

The Oort Clouds 08/08/2008 10:28:33
"SNP to woo Lib Dems on local income tax plans". Not exactly hard to woo a Lib Dem on anything as they believe in both sides of any argument at the same time.

A typical LibDem:

http://tinyurl.com/5el2cg
104

pwd,

Borders 08/08/2008 10:29:25
* 10

And what about the tens of t