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SNP threatens to tax supermarkets in war on booze culture



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Published Date: 12 February 2008
THE Scottish Government is preparing to take on supermarkets and off-licences in the battle against alcohol abuse, forcing them to pay a levy under new plans to make retailers meet the social cost of the country's "bevvy culture".
The Scottish Government believes retailers should share some of the burden for the social cost of Scotland's binge-drinking culture
The Scottish Government believes retailers should share some of the burden for the social cost of Scotland's binge-drinking culture
Proposals for a "polluter pays" charge have been extended from pubs and clubs to include every shop that sells alcohol in Scotland, amid a growing perception among ministers and senior officials that retailers are fuelling crime and anti-social behaviour by selling liquor.

The levy would raise millions to be spent by local licensing boards on projects to deal with the consequences of binge drinking, such as "drunk tanks" to ease pressure on accident and emergency wards, or wardens to monitor taxi ranks in city centres and extra police officers.

However, retailers last night described the plans as "fundamentally flawed".

Details of the proposed levy will be announced in the spring and will be subject to public consultation, but Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary, yesterday made it clear that off-licences and supermarkets were now in the firing line for the new measure. "The 'polluter pays' principle should apply across the board," he said. "More alcohol is now being sold in off-sales than through on sales. And the problems of binge drinking are not restricted to city centres – they're being felt throughout Scotland and in every age group.

"Somebody has to meet the cost of these consequences. It would be manifestly wrong to impose a 'polluter pays' levy only on pubs in city centres and not on supermarkets and off-licences in other towns and communities, if that's where we're also seeing problems.

"We have a serious problem in Scotland. People are telling me the problems are not simply from the licensed trade but also from off-licences."

Research suggests that 80 per cent of all alcohol sold in Scotland comes from off-licences. The problem of under-age drinking has also been linked by the police and government to irresponsible shopkeepers.

The issue was graphically highlighted by the murder of Garry Newlove, who was kicked to death by a gang of drunk teenagers who had been vandalising his wife's car.

A recent Home Office study revealed that almost three-quarters of under-age drinkers in deprived areas get their alcohol from supermarkets, corner shops or from their parents.

The survey showed that 52 per cent obtain alcohol from supermarkets or corner shops and 22 per cent from parents or family members.

Mr MacAskill revealed the new plan during a meeting with alcohol workers in Livingston, which like most towns in Scotland is blighted with the problem of under-age drinkers.

During one Friday last month, 15 teenagers aged between 13 and 15 were picked up by undercover police for under-age drinking.

Mr MacAskill said the levy would help communities to fund measures to tackle local alcohol-related problems.

"We need the resources to pay for the consequences of Scotland's drinking culture, whether it's doing something about people clogging up casualty units or educating young people about the dangers," he said.

"Somebody has to meet the medical and social consequences. Those who are making profits from alcohol are those who have to pay for it."

Retailers already face a crackdown on drinks promotions, while police recently began using teenage volunteers to trap shops willing to sell alcohol to children.

Retail organisations voiced opposition to the new proposals, which follow complaints from publicans that they were being unfairly singled out.

John Drummond, the chief executive of the Scottish Grocers Federation, said the plans were "fundamentally flawed".

"This should only be applied if it can be specifically proven that any individual shopkeeper or publican is seen to be responsible for causing anti-social behaviour or the like," he said. "We already have ways of dealing with anti-social behaviour, we have structures in place. The police ought to be doing that."

Mr Drummond described the levy as "another tax" that could threaten the livelihoods of small shopkeepers already facing a doubling in their licence fees under a separate Holyrood shake-up of the licensing system.

A spokesman for the Association of Convenience Stores said: "We would be concerned about the impact of any blanket levy. The assumption that every retailer is irresponsible is Draconian and we remain keen to discuss this issue further with the minister."

The move to extend the levy to supermarkets and other retailers has failed to quell anger from the pub trade.

Paul Waterson, from the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said: "The whole principal of this is wrong."

Bill Aitken, the Conservative justice spokesman, said: "This is a scattergun approach which fails to deal with the basic issue that some premises are well run and others are not.

"Licensing authorities are not nearly tough enough on those that sell alcohol irresponsibly. This anti-drink, anti-business approach does the SNP no credit and fails to tackle the problem the way it should be done, through increased resources for the police and the court system."

He said the cost of the levy would be passed on to consumers, and suggested the move could be open to legal challenge.

But, amid growing evidence of the scale of Scotland's binge-drinking problem, anti-alcohol campaigners welcomed the step.

Frank Soodeen, spokesman for Alcohol Concern, said: "The fact of the matter is that alcohol is no ordinary commodity. We have a situation where a flood of easily available and cheap drink is fuelling rising levels of alcohol-related harm.

"It's completely reasonable for the drinks industry to help share some of the costs associated with its misuse."

A recent report estimated that 28,000 victims of drink-related violence are treated in accident and emergency each year.

Another study, published in 2005, put the annual cost to society of excess drinking in Scotland at £1.1 billion. The report said that the number of alcohol-related deaths had risen from fewer than one in 100 in 1980 to one in 30.

Licensing boards will be free to decide how millions are spent

LOCAL licensing boards will be given free reign to spend millions of pounds raised by the proposed alcohol levy, The Scotsman understands.

Projects likely to receive funding include special centres where drunks can sleep off their intoxication overnight.

Discussions have taken place about a year-round "drunk tank" in Edinburgh, but plans have reportedly been frustrated by a lack of money.

A number of towns and cities have introduced marshals, funded by local authorities, to patrol taxi ranks to make sure people on nights out get home safely, and this is another scheme likely to benefit as a result of the "polluter pays" charge.

Details of precisely how the proposed levy is imposed on retailers and publicans have yet to be announced.

With the move fiercely opposed by the retail and alcohol industry, officials will be careful to avoid any potential legal challenge.

But one way could be a top-up charge on the existing fee that is paid to local authority licensing boards.

Councils would have to apply a national levy framework, which could see pubs, clubs and all off- licences – from small cornershops to giant supermarkets – put on a sliding scale of charge "bands" similar to the way council tax is set for householders.

It could also be based on the units of alcohol sold. But such a step would be fiercely resisted by supermarket chains and may be regarded as too radical.

Licence-holders are also facing a separate increase in the cost of selling liquor.

At the moment, landlords pay £172 for a three-year licence, with a further £86 due every time a renewal is needed.

The fees are charged on a flat-rate basis, with all pubs and other licensed premises paying the same, regardless of size.

But a new scheme announced by the Scottish Government in December will allow local licensing boards to set their own charges, on a sliding scale, depending on the size of each pub, within capped limits.

It will see the fees for the biggest pubs soar to £2,000 for an initial application, with an additional £900 annual renewal fee.

All pubs will be faced with the initial charge, as they require new one-year permits under new licensing laws.

That means that a large pub currently faced with an £86 three-year renewal charge would be hit with a £3,800 bill.

Michael Howie

Beer cheaper than water drives surge in supermarket drink sales

SUPERMARKETS and corner shops now account for almost a third of all alcohol sold in Scotland, compared with only a fifth 25 years ago, according to the beer industry. Forty-one per cent of Britain's beer is now bought in shops and supermarkets, compared to 33 per cent in 2000 and 30 per cent in 1986.

The shift away from bars has been driven by loss-leading supermarket prices – which have left beer cheaper than water – and the smoking ban, which has led to more consumers drinking at home.

Asda recently slashed the price of its own value-brand beer to just 22p for a 440ml can following similar moves from Tesco and Sainsbury's. It puts the price of beer at 50p a litre (around 28p a pint). Own-brand water costs between 56p and 92p a litre, depending on the store, while own-brand cola costs between 56p to 65p a litre.

The difference between "on-trade" pub and "off-trade" shelf prices is now so wide that it would be cheaper for many pub owners to buy their alcohol in supermarkets than from their own suppliers.

TNS World Panel, a market researcher, said Scots spent £138.8 million on alcohol from supermarkets and off-licences in the run-up to Christmas and New Year.

Supermarkets often sell beer and wine cheaply in order to attract lucrative grocery shoppers, but village shops and convenience stores rely on the income from alcohol sales for their survival. According to the Association of Convenience Stores, beer, wine and spirits account for 14 per cent of smaller shops' profits and 18 per cent of their sales.

In 2005, off-sales licences in Scotland accounted for more than a third of the 17,059 liquor licences in Scotland. Of those, smaller shops accounted for 44 per cent, supermarkets 9 per cent and garages 2 per cent. In 2004, off-licence alcohol sales were broken down as 28 per cent beer, 44 per cent wine (including fortified wine), 22 per cent spirits, 3 per cent cider, and 3 per cent alcopops.

The trend worries alcohol campaigners because more than half of under-age drinkers get their alcohol from shops and supermarkets. Half of all vodka drinkers in Britain are under 35, and Scottish off-trade sales of vodka are rising at a rate of about 6 per cent a year.

Lager dominates the take-home market, with a 74 per cent share of all beer and cider sold in 2005.

Alcohol Focus Scotland says price promotions boost sales by up to 25 per cent for the duration of the offer, and 83 per cent of people who buy alcohol on promotion return for a second purchase.

ALASTAIR JAMIESON
CONSUMER AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT



The full article contains 1884 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 February 2008 12:48 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Alcohol & binge drinking
 
1

Ayrshire Scot™ ,

12/02/2008 00:02:46
Good in theory - But hard to put into practice. At least they are trying to do something about it.
2

Jimmy the Pie,

12/02/2008 00:13:59
It is time something was done to cut the amount of alcohol being consummed. The big brewers are pushing their products very hard and they don't give a damn about the social misery and distress their products cause. Profit is all they care about. Why should society pick up all of the bill??
3

Castaway,

12/02/2008 00:15:32
#1 - I agree plus the Scottish Government doesn't need the permission from Westminster to implement this proposed levy.

4

Mike Giggler,

12/02/2008 00:16:22
"At the moment, landlords pay £172 for a three-year licence, with a further £86 due every time a renewal is needed."

I pay £200 to get a road fund licence for my car! The man at the Post Office stamps it for me, not the full Licencing Committee!

Goodness knows how much it would cost to get a licence if the man at the Post Office had to posts adverts inviting objections to me renewing my car tax! Then deal with the objections and make a recommendation to the brown envelopes.
5

Rosie,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:16:41
Good idea, I hope it works.
6

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:20:01
This subject is getting tiresome!

It WILL NOT,,repeat WILL NOT, stop our teens from obtaining Booze! (1Billion FULL-STOPS)
All it is going to do is..'further tax us'!

Its Laughable!
And that's what our teens will do,
'Laugh-in-your-Face' and be MORE determined and obtain Booze!
Some teens may act like 'Muppet's' behave like 'Muppet's', but when it comes to their wants, they are clever, cunning and resourceful!
Are you Too Stupid to See This,?
Tax the Supermarkets,?
I hear the laughter now!
The only 'Muppet's' are the ones that came up with this,
'Hair Brain Idea'!
And only the rest of us will suffer!
7

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:22:46
Rosie @ #5,
It will never work!
Do you not hear the Laughter,?
8

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:31:25
And that picture,?
A teen getting her booze?
'Aye' Right then! 'As-If'.. get real!
This is the last thing she would do to get Booze!
Is this the 'Hilarity Channel' I hit on.?
Or somid,?
9

democrate,

central Scotland 12/02/2008 00:32:21
I too hope that this initiative will succeed. We are all aware of how alcohol and violence blight our society and it's more than high time that serious steps were taken to address this. Instead of talking it down, responsible adults should be right behind this. We can hardly complain about the ned culture and prisons overflowing with human casualties when we fail to address the underlying issues. Remember Jack McConnell referring to his town centre? How many Scottish town centres are no-go areas because of alcohol abuse?
10

Mike Giggler,

12/02/2008 00:39:31
'However, RETAILERS last night described the plans as "fundamentally flawed".'

RETAILERS - That will be TESCO, Sainsbury, Morrisons, LIDL etc?

These bully boys have the power to make or break Scottish/ British brewing.

TESCO are currently promoting the Boheme brand from the Czech Republic.

P.S. The "Scottish Government" is just a very, very big Toon Cooncil.
11

DouglasT,

12/02/2008 00:39:59
I think it is a good idea worth investigating. the proposals are 'subject to consultation', so to say it will never work without knowing what it is, seems illogical. Sure, its tough that we all have to pay more because of some dickheads but maybe it will encourage people to report underage sales, etc. And hey, we're getting more police to deal with them - maybe I'll see one in my town next year :)
12

Highland Mighty,

12/02/2008 00:43:34
Totally agree that this needs to be tackled but is taxing EVERYONE the way? Don't we get taxed enough as it is?

What is it with this country (as in the UK) that governments think 'more taxes' is the answer to everything?!

I won't even start with the incredible amount of additional red tape that this will involve with all the bands being proposed. Another thing we have too much already.

In summary, unoriginal solutions thqat have already been tried and have already failed.
13

subrosa,

12/02/2008 00:43:43
# 6/7/8

Ok you've made your point. What would you do? Or is your preferred tipple the status quo?
14

walter,

12/02/2008 00:49:34
Yet again instead of punishing the law breakers they are going to tax the shops that sell alcohol who will in turn pass the cost onto their customers.
The vast majority of the population who do buy and consume alcohol and those who don't are going to pay yet again for the few that cannot behave in a proper manner when under the influence or those that are breaking the law by consuming it as they are under age.
MacAskill says 15 teenagers aged between 13 and 15 were picked up by undercover police for under-age drinking but how many them were punished for breaking the law, Non I would bet.
15

,

12/02/2008 00:53:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
16

,

12/02/2008 00:55:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
17

,

12/02/2008 01:01:30
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/02/2008 01:01:42
Good idea.

At least the Government are thinking about taking real action on real issues instead of Scottish Labour inaction.
19

Sanny,

Portugal 12/02/2008 01:11:07
Booze in Iberia is but a fraction of the price it is in the UK. The locals drink brandy and wine on most days. Go on any building site and there will be several beer bottles around. Children are allowed to drink wine with meals. So, why is it that you rarely see any local get fall down drunk?

Yet go to the tourist areas and see the British holidaymakers! They drink themselves unconscious on a nightly basis. Their behaviour is disgusting and outrageous making me ashamed to admit my own nationality.

This has nothing to do with the cost of booze it is a cultural thing. It is the culture we have to change. My Portuguese friends would die of embarrassment if they got themselves into the state where they were unable to control themselves.

Our youngsters seem to think there is something macho or adult about getting smashed. We have to ask ourselves why this is so and change they way our young society thinks. This is where the answers lie not in ever increasing taxes.
20

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 01:24:16
subrosa,@ #13,

If posters want to come on here and be 'YES' People and speculate nonsense, that's their prerogative.
(not meaning you)
I don't and will not speculate the rubbish and wont put up with it!
I live in the.. 'real-world'.. and tell it as it is!

"preferred tipple" well it looks like it will soon be taxed, by the ..Muppet Show!
"status quo?"
Give me a break! I am NOT interested in history and the,
'Dead and Goners'
I know the teens very well, this is the last thing that will stop them getting the booze!
Its 'Utter' Nonsense!
21

Buchanan,

12/02/2008 01:44:17
I guess the SNP did not get a 500 quid
donation from Tesco's :)

But seriously a good move from the Scottish Government
alchol abuse is a huge problem in Scotland.
22

Edward,

12/02/2008 01:54:51
#19 Sanny,Portugal
Whole heartedly agree , this is also my experiences in Portugal, where Im a regular visitor to the Lisbon area
All drinks are far cheaper than here. In fact go to a 'Cooperative' and you can pick up a 5 ltre flagon of decent wine for a lot less than mineral water!
Yet I have never seen any kids hanging about getting out the faces. The only people Ive seen drunk are Brit tourists!
It is very much a cultural thing
23

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 02:02:35
Buchanan, @ #21,

"But seriously a good move from the Scottish Government"
Get real!, read #19..#22
Now thats reality!
Why are you another 'YES' Person.?
24

Edward,

12/02/2008 02:08:56
At least the Scottish Government are taking the problem seriously, something that should have been tackled long ago, but the previous administration failed to do anything apart from there joke Asbo's
Allthough the idea of taxing the likes of Tesco's appeals to me greatly, realistically the problem has to be tackled with those that abuse. This may mean some unpalitable measures . Such as raising drinking age to 21, zero tolerance by the police, with the effect of penalising parents (after all why do they allow there kids to roam at will with drink in the hands!) The parents should be made responsible for there children upto the age of 18, where by the parent is subject to penalties and if re-occurring, jail time!
Some I know will say this is a bit heavy, but if this is what it takes then it should be done.
So basically raise drinking age, this makes it easy for Policing. Make parents responsible for children upto 18, for those 18 and over, they should be responsible for themselves and if they are caught with drink, then they should be fined. Every person, regardless of age should be made more responsible for there actions, leaving it to the government is just shifting it to someone else. Schools should also play there part in education children about alcohol abuse, they have sex education, why not alcohol education, perhaps then we will develop a better society
25

Eugene john,

12/02/2008 02:12:58
#22 Edward

Exactly. I live between several Southern Europe countries where alcohol is inepensive but where there is very little alcohol related violence or other social problems associated with alcohol consumption. The difference between mainland Europe and Scotland/UK is peoples attitudes to the use of alcohol and education about it.
26

subrosa,

12/02/2008 02:13:28
# 20

Thanks for your response. You haven't said what you would like to be done to halt this social disease of the excessive consumption of alcohol.

Personally I think trying to do something is far better than just talk. We need to do something for save the lives of young people and not allow them to kill themselves at a young age.
27

Bob10,

12/02/2008 02:26:46
If the consumption of booze and the behaviour that results therefrom is becoming a problem, then surely the answer is simple, severely reduce the number of licensed outlets where booze can be obtained for consumption off the premises.

Oh. Silly me - that would reduce the revenue obtained by local authorities, who licence the offending outlets but still appear to be issuing licences at wholesale rates! Much better to impose a further tax on retailers on the pretext of solving the problem, thereby gaining even more revenue.
28

Buchanan,

12/02/2008 03:04:39
23 Charles Linskaill

Clearly you received you £500 donation from Tescos.

I'm behind the Scottish Government trying to do
something to tackle a major problem in Scotland.
Perhaps this is not the best way to tackle it, but
at least it is a start. I'm sure the Scottish Government will look forward to receiving your
alternate positive suggestions on how to tackle
this problem, assuming of course you can come
up some instead of the insulting drivel that
you post here.


29

Carlo,

Fort William 12/02/2008 03:19:11
Kenny!.....drop this right now!
It's a load of nonsense.....and ultimately will hobble the SNP with a ridiculous ungoverable policy!!!

Concentrate on something sensible that will add value to our drive to reduce binge drinking.......like removing the licenses from those retailers who continue to sell to the underage no matter what....!!!

Good retailers will be punished for the criminal acts of others!!
30

williamx,

canada 12/02/2008 04:39:12
If they are young try the US solution - no alcohol sold to under 21s. If found doing it loss of license and very heavy fines for liquor outlets.
For the SNP
If somebody buys the under age person booze - loss of all assets right down to the underpants.
Both laws should kill it off fast.
31

Fae Fife,

Seattle USA 12/02/2008 05:17:29
Some historical perspective here: the optimism of "Continental-style" cafe atmosphere in Scotland's pubs and open shelves of alcohol was, in the words of the reformers back in the seventies, meant to bring a transparency and defeat the gulp-and-go culture of 10pm closing. Maybe it is time to look entirely at the whole reform that took place...it seems to have failed. Not only is under-age drinking now more of a problem than it was then, but a whole generation has grown up with this read access to booze: in the corner shop, the supermarket (on open shelves, like cornflakes), even garage shops. Maybe the answer is not just to impose levies on the sellers but also greatly restrict the number of licenses, hours of sale and open availability of booze. With so much alcohol around is it any wonder that Scotland's youth want to consume it? But to do that the adults are going to have to do a bit of soul-searching - are you willing to pay more, have less availability (places and hours) in order to combat this huge social issue. After more than 20 years of this more liberal approach, it would appear that Scotland does not yet have the maturity of the countries it was trying to emulate. It is time to turn the clock back on a failed experiment. Put the booze back in restricted off-license spaces in supermarkets, limit the hours and limit the number of licenses. Taxi licenses are more limited than alcohol licenses in any Scottish town.
32

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

12/02/2008 05:48:15
When supermarkets are selling beer cheaper than water then something has to be done to make it more expensive I would have thought
33

terry osser,

morden 12/02/2008 06:22:44
snp short of money?
34

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 12/02/2008 06:39:57
#19 #22 and #25 : absolutely right. Too many people here, adults as well as young people, think there's something glamorous about drinking themselves stupid. It's the attitude that needs to change.
35

inoui,

Bordeaux 12/02/2008 06:41:18
We're all short of money!
Wine is cheaper than water here in Bordeaux along with many other things, but there is no booze/teenager problem! Though SNP/any UK government are looking for solutions I think the problem is at home and in the UK culture, not in the spermarket.
Prohibition didn't work in the US.
36

an interested party,

12/02/2008 06:48:02
raise the price of alcohol to far and a black market WILL appear, black marketeers will not have strict licensing laws to prevent them from selling alcohol to youngsters, or in fact morals and thus will also sell drugs and anything else the market will bare.

prohibition doesn't work! nor will it invest money in clearly underfunded youth services.
37

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 07:01:07
The SNP don't know what they are doing. This is the kind of stealth tax Brown prefers.

Here's a radical solution. Allow cheap drink here so that citizens can enjoy their lives and fine the parents of drunken youths/shopkeepers breaking terms of their license and fine the drunk and disorderly adults who need to use the service of a drunk tank.

I get drunk once a month, I don't go out to get high, but I don't pace myself either. Have been doing that for 18 years or more. Never been in a fight, never been in so much as an argument.

The SNP are taking off where Labour left us. Punishing the innocent to pay for the guilty. Or raising taxes to give it its formal term.
38

fife runner,

12/02/2008 07:02:03
you only have to go to A&Es to see how much time is wasted on dealing with excessive alcohol intake. Not forgetting those who are really ill trying to get an ambulance at the weekend as they attend scenes blighted by alcohol. Then there is police time.

It knows no social boundaries. Recent report says more is now consumed by higher classes. They can probably conceal their idiocy better than others.

I have known two people who died from excessive intake at early ages.
39

fife runner,

12/02/2008 07:03:08
37 why do you want to get drunk anyway? What a daft comment.
40

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/02/2008 07:04:49
The SNP is here dealing with symptoms and ignoring causes.

Is this the low standard of legislative nous that we (well 15% of us) have voted for and mustvget used to?

All drinkers should first sit and pass a drinkers' test, like a driving test, to show understanding and ability. Those that drink without this should be punished, as with driving.
41

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 07:11:19
A drunk man does what a sober man thinks.

If you are an angry little twerp with a prepencity for violence then you will probably look for a fight and hurt someone while high on drugs like alcohol.

If you are an easy going responsible citizen then you will probably enjoy being in a brightly lit carnival for a couple hours. Laugh with your friends and regret not downing that second pint of water before bed.

If you are sleeping in your urine every week while lying in the gutter, no amount of tax will turn your life around.

The SNP want to tax the middle classes as per. They resent that people enjoy themselves once in a while.
42

John M,

Melbourne, Australia 12/02/2008 07:46:37
What's to stop the supermarkets putting up the prices on other goods in order to get the money to pay the special levy?

The off-licenses can't do that if 95% of their goods are alcohol.

The proposal would seem to be playing into the hands of the supermarket chains.

One approach might be to halve the legal limit of alcohol in beer and to price wine and spirits much higher.

Scandinavian countries had this problem and in at least one case the government took over the running of all liquor outlets and put prices up and imposed rather stringent shop hours (something like closed from 6pm Friday evening until 11am Monday morning). Very harsh penalties for bootlegging too.
43

Joe,

Barnton 12/02/2008 07:51:23
Cheaper than water eh! Perrier?
44

conservative,

12/02/2008 07:54:12
Why should I be taxed because other people commit crimes? The SNP is just following another Labour practice - tax those who obey the law for the benefit of those who don't.
45

Scotty B,

Livingston 12/02/2008 07:55:19
It's about time something was done to the outlets that are the root of problem anti-social drinking - supermarkets and off licenses.

For far too long pubs have taken the brunt of the legislation against alcohol, despite them being the best regulated place for people to drink.

Pubs don't sell carry outs to 14 or 15 year old kids so they can get hammered in a park or street corner. That's down to irresponsible off licencees and supermarkets charging such ridiculously low prices. It's about time we stopped these loss leading prices and simply ban any place that sells alcohol to underage people from selling alcohol at all for 12 months at a time. That might focus them a bit more on what their responsibilities are.
46

cabrach loon,

La Massana 12/02/2008 07:58:50
This is not what SNP were voted in for - also it is no sensible solution. Where are the kids getting the money from? Penalise the parents, encourage or force evening educational activities in useful things that are trade and hobby and sport related. If need be mnake them compulsory. Emphasise the health aspects and damage done to the body for future life - it can be frightening.
Typical brainless solution - punish everyone else - I thought that went away with the Romans and Nazis! Even prohibition was a non-starter in the USA! Just lets the crims in and bootleg booze. India has trouble with impure spirit drunk at cut price by the poor - they die odf course!
47

lachlan,

12/02/2008 07:59:20
'Frank Soodeen, spokesman for Alcohol Concern, said: "The fact of the matter is that alcohol is no ordinary commodity.'
yes not in this coutry,in other countries where a more grown up attitude to alcohol prevails alcohol can be teated as an ordinary product.untill we stop seeing alcohol and getting drunk as matcho and funny we will struggle with this.making it harder to obtain will possibly only glorify the problem.it does'nt seem to work with with with drugs.
48

M.T.,

12/02/2008 08:00:21
If you don't pay road fund licence, your car can be crushed.
If a retailer sells alcohol to a minor, their licence should be revoked.
If anyone is caught purchasing alcohol for a minor, they should be heavily fined.
49

paulr,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:03:44
If you are going to introduce a 'polluter pays' levy then supermarkets and manufacturers should all be charged, for all the unnecessary and unwanted extra packaging they bundle goods in.
50

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 08:05:29
This seems like more of the right kind of noises from Kenny MacAskill. He was right about community sentencing, and he may well be right about this. Shame there aren't more like him in the SNP.
51

malkster,

Scotland 12/02/2008 08:05:42
Another populist measure from the control freak governmnet which will merely mean I pay more for my bottle of red wine. The bucky drinking neds that are ruining the country will carry on regardless.
52

conservative,

12/02/2008 08:07:49
#51 Duncan you are wrong there - there are plenty of idiots like MacAskill in the SNP ready to stick their hands into your (and my) pockets.
53

Argyll on line,

Argyll 12/02/2008 08:10:00
A very courageous first step to break the booze culture which is destroying youth.
54

K McDonald,

glasgow 12/02/2008 08:11:34
Sneaky socialist tax shakedown alert! Kenny wants his money that is in your pocket to spend as he sees fit.

The majority of people in Scotland drink responsibly, so why impose a tax on them? Why should the law abiding pay a penalty tax for the poor drinking habits of a few? The irresponsible will obtain drink regardless of the price.

I am afraid we are in for a dose of Scandinavian style nannyfication of our lives thanks to the nat socialists; identify a problem caused by a minority then punish the rest of the population...Brilliant piece of political thinking. I mean, look at all those smokers who quit because of the price.

Anyone for a fiver a pint, fiver a glass of wine or tenner a vodka & mixer?







55

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 12/02/2008 08:14:01
Sanny #19 and Edward #22, whereas I agree with you that on the surface Portuguese drunks do not appear as visible as their Scottish counterparts, I would hovever, suggest that, this is only part of the picture.

I have an Angolan documentary maker chum who made a heartbreaking doc about life in Casal Ventoso, Lisboa. At the time Europe's largest heroin ghetto, where the young mendicants appeared to binge drink every bit as much as the Scots binge drinkers. Obviously no one chooses to visit such areas, whilst either on holiday or on retirement, but sadly they do exist.

#10 Charles Linksail, you appear to have no other argument than you don't like taxes, are you employed by the Scottish Licensed Trade Association or a similar body?
56

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 12/02/2008 08:15:34
All these taxes, Stealth or otherwise, do is lead to deepending the divide between the rich and poor. Beer and wine was never meant to be in-accessable to the average person. Why make it so now?

It's a rather Conservative thing to do, what?
57

Rob Simpson,

UK 12/02/2008 08:20:37
It seems, these days, politicians only have two answers to any problem; "tax it" or "ban it". Why exactly should the overwhelming majority be expected to be paid to use something they are perfectly capable of using in a responsible manner for the sake of the few who can't? That minority, when caught, face little more than a slap on the wrist. Perhaps the SNP could consider getting tough on them rather than tough on everyone. Though given some of the comments above you'd think i was proposing something radical and that higher taxes were a tried and tested solution.
58

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 08:25:14
>>>All these taxes, Stealth or otherwise, do is lead to deepending the divide between the rich and poor. Beer and wine was never meant to be in-accessable to the average person. Why make it so now?<<<

Precisely. If you take Scandinavia as an example the high price of alchohol does not lead to fewer or better behaved drinkers. What happens is that chaep illicit 90 proof moonshines are widely available This rocket fuel causes dozens of deaths every year.

If someone wants drink badly enough they will get it.

Time for the Police and courts to start doing their jobs by enforcing existing laws. Time to ditch the notion that complicated social problems can be taxed away. Punishing the many for the bad behaviour of a few is not right or just.
59

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 08:29:31
#57 Morning Dave. You have a point, but one key issue to face is that the cost of alcohol today, in real terms, is a fraction of what it used to be. Prices have been dropping very significantly. Not even a 100% tax imposed today would bring prices back up to levels comparable with 20 years ago. So it isn't as simple as taxing the poor out of their pleasures. We have been making alcohol easier and easier to access every year - so this could be considered as a mild redressing of the balance.
60

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:32:48
Rob Simpson @ #58,
Your correct, I mean to say,
Do you think a teen is gonna walk into a supermarket, with a 'wad-of-notes' hanging out their pockets, or their treasured 'piggy-bank' to Purchase Booze,?
Geezoo...'get-real'!!.. it the last thing the teens would do!
Stupid idiotic proposal!,, this is!
Unless they make it £200.00 for a bottle of wine,?
Is that it..?????
For Gods Sake!..
I have seen more intelegence in a 'pre-school' class!
61

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 12/02/2008 08:35:55
Human beings will always strive for efficiency Duncan (mornin') so it's only a matter of time before production costs come down (after all, we have been brewing for how long now?).

Alchohol, like it or not, has and will continue to play an important role in our lives. Alchohol has always been easy to get. At one point, everybody drank beer in towns and cities all over the UK because the water was not safe to drink. However, there must be a reason for people to want NOT to drink. Imposing a tax/ban is not the way forward in my opinion. It would be, politically, an unpopular move so I reckon we would have to appeal to something toher than our wallets. No?
62

danielrober,

12/02/2008 08:36:32
Sounds a good idea. If it can be made to work, i'm sure it will be rolled out across the UK. Well SNP and advisors.
63

Jopa,

Girvan 12/02/2008 08:42:31
I pay more in my Nurse Registration Fees than the Government are asking for this Booze Tax...Ironic to say the least!
64

Corstorphinery,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:50:06
# 61 Charles...

'Intelegence'......quod erat demonstrandum.
65

Peter Roberts www.teatromimo.com,

Spain 12/02/2008 08:51:46
Traditionally people start in the alcohol culture through family or social activities.
Perhaps the best way to counter the problem of drink is in a social manner.Generating opinon, debate and reflection.These aspects can be evidenced clearly through theatre.
66

jdships,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:52:29
Question

Why do I need seven off licences , one supermsrket snd a pub , all selling alchol , within a five hundred metre radius of my house ?
Surely before any tax is thought about let's look at the licencing laws/rules/conditions
67

2Right,

On Location 12/02/2008 08:52:37
It is cheaper to buy booze from the supermarkets than a bottle of water.
sort it out
68

G.,

Linlithgow 12/02/2008 08:54:38
Its not the supermarkets that are responsible for supplying booze to kids. Its the unscrupulous corner shops and off licenses that sell to under 18s.
69

Vincent-W,

12/02/2008 08:59:36
Getting drunk out of your head is so embedded in Scottish culture that it's going to take more than a tax hike to sort it.

Just look at th history books to see what a high status booze had in Scotland and how revered 'getting p*shed' has been for centuries.

The Victorians railed against the eveils of drink, the Kirk tried over the years with their laudable 'pledge' concept many others have tried and failed.

Getting drunk is seen as an 'artform' in all sections of society, just think of all the jokes and euphemisms around alcohol.
70

hertscot,

12/02/2008 09:02:35
Its even easier than taxing the shops. If an offie or super market sells booze to under age drinkers then close the bloody place down for 6 months, it doesn't matter if it is Joe Bloggs or Tesco, and the particular store should not be considered for a new lisence for 24 months. It is up the the lisence holder to uphold the agreed terms and there fore they should be properly punished if they break them.
Then perhaps teenagers will not be able to get cheap booze so easily as retailers are forced to become accountable for their actions due to appropriate punishments for breaking the law.

Anyway, rant over and time for a dram, slante.
71

karinxx,

12/02/2008 09:06:27
Looks like all the jakeys on here are annoyed at the govenrnment getting in the way of their "little problem" with alcohol.
72

K McDonald,

glasgow 12/02/2008 09:08:10
>>>>>>>>>>Traditionally people start in the alcohol culture through family or social activities.
Perhaps the best way to counter the problem of drink is in a social manner.Generating opinon, debate and reflection.These aspects can be evidenced clearly through theatre.<<<

Correct. Hence the absence of such anti-social behaviour in med countries. In my youth there was an unwritten rule that you never drank with those who "couldnt handle their booze". By that I mean one embarrrasing night out with a friend who caused trouble when drunk was enough; you never drank with them again.

PS// I hope you are not angling for some of Kenny's tax payer mugging money to fund one of your dramatic productions ;-)

Prohibition (in varying degrees) has been tried tested and failed to stop people drinking. Once again, taxing the many for bad behaviour of the few is unjust and and will not reduce anti social drinking behaviour.
73

Nikostratos,

12/02/2008 09:11:35
This is just a stealth tax the snp need more cash and this is just a way to raise money and claim they are trying to tackle a social problem.Nu- labour would be proud of them.

Put the price up and you will end up with more 'Vans' making the booze trip to pick up cheap alcohol from across the border.
74

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/02/2008 09:12:15
A dangerous move for SNP?

If there were no Scots 'oot o' their heids' who would vote SNP?
75

PlanA,

Glasgow 12/02/2008 09:14:56
Does Macaskill seriously think we will swallow this as a solution to our drinking culture? Another 'tax' would of course be required to make up the losses of the Forth Road Bridge tolls abolishion. In modern society's softly-softly treatment of such problems the politicians have completely removed the responsibility element as it's so much easier to blame third parties. When was the last time you read of an underage drinker being prosecuted or for that matter someone being arrested drunk in public - both were offences when I last checked. Creating an example of offenders has always been a deterrent yet such actions seem beyond today's leaders. We couldn't have the poor souls feeling humiliated now could we? No - it's much simpler to go for easier targets such as corner-shop owners trying to make a living.

76

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 09:20:10
>>>Looks like all the jakeys on here are annoyed at the govenrnment getting in the way of their "little problem" with alcohol.<<<


So an objection to paying an alcohol penalty tax for other peoples bad behaviour is an indicator of a personal problem with alcohol? Or are you just incapable of following a reasoned debate?

Please state exactly why and how increasing the price of booze by taxation will reduce anti-social behaviour associated with alcohol and why taxing the good behaviour of the many is a just policy?





77

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:22:18
There is certainly room for some increase here,but I think the amount that would be collected ,obviously has a ceiling,and eventually reaches a point where it drops again, because of falling sales, (which was of course its intention).
On the basis that money is finite then increasing the price should mean less consumption if for no other reason they cannot buy anymore.
The only down side is do alcoholic parents now buy even less food for the children to facilitate their habit, as a direct result of this initiative.

I agree however we have to try and reduce our national intake.Its too easy to go down the road of a wee drink ,and before you know it, you are the Rubber Man.
Taxing alcohol out of reach is normal in some Scandinavian countries,its even illegal in some others!
We can certainly raise taxes on our internal consumption.Westminster makes enough on our Whisky industry.I cannot see any reason why we should not follow suit.
Bad news for wine shops etc though.
Nothing is perfect of course.

Does Holyrood have a tax free bar?It soon will if it does not!
Ive already seen and drunk a bottle of HOUSE OF COMMONS WHISKY (many moons ago)which the Labour activist assures me he got free from his local MP. ( I never verified this of course).I cant remember if it was duty free for certain,but I know he paid NOTHING for it and claimed to have an endless supply(as if this was something to be proud of). No I will not mention any names. I gave my word as a young man that I would not disclose this in any meaningful detail ever. My word stands.Believe or not. Your choice.
78

Pension Lost!,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:23:28
At least they are willing to try new things. Will it work ..? I am not sure but it is certainly worth a try. It does seem a travesty that my Car tax cost more each year that a retailer pays for a license top sell booze!

As for Charles Linskaill comments. Charles lets hear something positive for a change. What is your solution then if you hate this one so much???
79

Thomas1,

12/02/2008 09:29:30
68 jdships
is that why your always steamin and can't spell proper
80

JimC,

Kilmarnock 12/02/2008 09:29:43
Given that you need to be 18 years of age to enter a public house, and the same to purchase drink, why not make it an offence to be in possession of or found to be under the influence of alcohol. An option of an on the spot fine or take your chances with the local sheriff. Three strikes and your referred to 6 weeks of week-end counselling sessions and community service.
81

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:31:20
Pension @ #80,
When they pay me the same as the lunatics, that just escaped the asylum, then came up with this,
'hair-brain' idea, then I will tell you what needs done!
Teens never 'buy-booze' they get their piers to do it for a start!
82

Gothic Rose,

12/02/2008 09:31:55
Its enough to drive you to Drink!!!
83

Peter Roberts www.teatromimo.com,

Spain 12/02/2008 09:34:50
Creative thinking allows us to see the old with new light. If the glass were to be seen as the hook and the drink as the worm. Perhaps less angling would take place.
84

british and proud,

12/02/2008 09:34:58
this is the same kenny mcaskill that was held in the cells at wembley because he was drunk and disorderly at the england v scotland game and was not jailed because he was a m.s.p at the mickey mouse parliament. dont lecture me mcaskill about handling my drink.
85

Old Siggy,

Dunbar 12/02/2008 09:35:45
In a probably futile attempt to cut across the SNP/Labour/political drivel that invariably permeates these threads. I offer the following suggestion. I lived in Canada for a few years in the 80's. You could not buy booze from supermarkets but every town across the country had a "Liquor Commission". This is a government owned and controlled booze supermarket. Anyone who wanted to shop there had to have an ID card so it was virtually impossible for underage drinkers to buy alcohol. I am sure underage drinking still went on but it wasn't a national disgrace in the same way it is here!!