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SNP threatens to tax supermarkets in war on booze culture

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Published Date: 12 February 2008
THE Scottish Government is preparing to take on supermarkets and off-licences in the battle against alcohol abuse, forcing them to pay a levy under new plans to make retailers meet the social cost of the country's "bevvy culture".
The Scottish Government believes retailers should share some of the burden for the social cost of Scotland's binge-drinking culture
The Scottish Government believes retailers should share some of the burden for the social cost of Scotland's binge-drinking culture
Proposals for a "polluter pays" charge have been extended from pubs and clubs to include every shop that sells alcohol in Scotland, amid a growing perception among ministers and senior officials that retailers are fuelling crime and anti-social behaviour by selling liquor.

The levy would raise millions to be spent by local licensing boards on projects to deal with the consequences of binge drinking, such as "drunk tanks" to ease pressure on accident and emergency wards, or wardens to monitor taxi ranks in city centres and extra police officers.

However, retailers last night described the plans as "fundamentally flawed".

Details of the proposed levy will be announced in the spring and will be subject to public consultation, but Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary, yesterday made it clear that off-licences and supermarkets were now in the firing line for the new measure. "The 'polluter pays' principle should apply across the board," he said. "More alcohol is now being sold in off-sales than through on sales. And the problems of binge drinking are not restricted to city centres – they're being felt throughout Scotland and in every age group.

"Somebody has to meet the cost of these consequences. It would be manifestly wrong to impose a 'polluter pays' levy only on pubs in city centres and not on supermarkets and off-licences in other towns and communities, if that's where we're also seeing problems.

"We have a serious problem in Scotland. People are telling me the problems are not simply from the licensed trade but also from off-licences."

Research suggests that 80 per cent of all alcohol sold in Scotland comes from off-licences. The problem of under-age drinking has also been linked by the police and government to irresponsible shopkeepers.

The issue was graphically highlighted by the murder of Garry Newlove, who was kicked to death by a gang of drunk teenagers who had been vandalising his wife's car.

A recent Home Office study revealed that almost three-quarters of under-age drinkers in deprived areas get their alcohol from supermarkets, corner shops or from their parents.

The survey showed that 52 per cent obtain alcohol from supermarkets or corner shops and 22 per cent from parents or family members.

Mr MacAskill revealed the new plan during a meeting with alcohol workers in Livingston, which like most towns in Scotland is blighted with the problem of under-age drinkers.

During one Friday last month, 15 teenagers aged between 13 and 15 were picked up by undercover police for under-age drinking.

Mr MacAskill said the levy would help communities to fund measures to tackle local alcohol-related problems.

"We need the resources to pay for the consequences of Scotland's drinking culture, whether it's doing something about people clogging up casualty units or educating young people about the dangers," he said.

"Somebody has to meet the medical and social consequences. Those who are making profits from alcohol are those who have to pay for it."

Retailers already face a crackdown on drinks promotions, while police recently began using teenage volunteers to trap shops willing to sell alcohol to children.

Retail organisations voiced opposition to the new proposals, which follow complaints from publicans that they were being unfairly singled out.

John Drummond, the chief executive of the Scottish Grocers Federation, said the plans were "fundamentally flawed".

"This should only be applied if it can be specifically proven that any individual shopkeeper or publican is seen to be responsible for causing anti-social behaviour or the like," he said. "We already have ways of dealing with anti-social behaviour, we have structures in place. The police ought to be doing that."

Mr Drummond described the levy as "another tax" that could threaten the livelihoods of small shopkeepers already facing a doubling in their licence fees under a separate Holyrood shake-up of the licensing system.

A spokesman for the Association of Convenience Stores said: "We would be concerned about the impact of any blanket levy. The assumption that every retailer is irresponsible is Draconian and we remain keen to discuss this issue further with the minister."

The move to extend the levy to supermarkets and other retailers has failed to quell anger from the pub trade.

Paul Waterson, from the Scottish Licensed Trade Association, said: "The whole principal of this is wrong."

Bill Aitken, the Conservative justice spokesman, said: "This is a scattergun approach which fails to deal with the basic issue that some premises are well run and others are not.

"Licensing authorities are not nearly tough enough on those that sell alcohol irresponsibly. This anti-drink, anti-business approach does the SNP no credit and fails to tackle the problem the way it should be done, through increased resources for the police and the court system."

He said the cost of the levy would be passed on to consumers, and suggested the move could be open to legal challenge.

But, amid growing evidence of the scale of Scotland's binge-drinking problem, anti-alcohol campaigners welcomed the step.

Frank Soodeen, spokesman for Alcohol Concern, said: "The fact of the matter is that alcohol is no ordinary commodity. We have a situation where a flood of easily available and cheap drink is fuelling rising levels of alcohol-related harm.

"It's completely reasonable for the drinks industry to help share some of the costs associated with its misuse."

A recent report estimated that 28,000 victims of drink-related violence are treated in accident and emergency each year.

Another study, published in 2005, put the annual cost to society of excess drinking in Scotland at £1.1 billion. The report said that the number of alcohol-related deaths had risen from fewer than one in 100 in 1980 to one in 30.

Licensing boards will be free to decide how millions are spent

LOCAL licensing boards will be given free reign to spend millions of pounds raised by the proposed alcohol levy, The Scotsman understands.

Projects likely to receive funding include special centres where drunks can sleep off their intoxication overnight.

Discussions have taken place about a year-round "drunk tank" in Edinburgh, but plans have reportedly been frustrated by a lack of money.

A number of towns and cities have introduced marshals, funded by local authorities, to patrol taxi ranks to make sure people on nights out get home safely, and this is another scheme likely to benefit as a result of the "polluter pays" charge.

Details of precisely how the proposed levy is imposed on retailers and publicans have yet to be announced.

With the move fiercely opposed by the retail and alcohol industry, officials will be careful to avoid any potential legal challenge.

But one way could be a top-up charge on the existing fee that is paid to local authority licensing boards.

Councils would have to apply a national levy framework, which could see pubs, clubs and all off- licences – from small cornershops to giant supermarkets – put on a sliding scale of charge "bands" similar to the way council tax is set for householders.

It could also be based on the units of alcohol sold. But such a step would be fiercely resisted by supermarket chains and may be regarded as too radical.

Licence-holders are also facing a separate increase in the cost of selling liquor.

At the moment, landlords pay £172 for a three-year licence, with a further £86 due every time a renewal is needed.

The fees are charged on a flat-rate basis, with all pubs and other licensed premises paying the same, regardless of size.

But a new scheme announced by the Scottish Government in December will allow local licensing boards to set their own charges, on a sliding scale, depending on the size of each pub, within capped limits.

It will see the fees for the biggest pubs soar to £2,000 for an initial application, with an additional £900 annual renewal fee.

All pubs will be faced with the initial charge, as they require new one-year permits under new licensing laws.

That means that a large pub currently faced with an £86 three-year renewal charge would be hit with a £3,800 bill.

Michael Howie

Beer cheaper than water drives surge in supermarket drink sales

SUPERMARKETS and corner shops now account for almost a third of all alcohol sold in Scotland, compared with only a fifth 25 years ago, according to the beer industry. Forty-one per cent of Britain's beer is now bought in shops and supermarkets, compared to 33 per cent in 2000 and 30 per cent in 1986.

The shift away from bars has been driven by loss-leading supermarket prices – which have left beer cheaper than water – and the smoking ban, which has led to more consumers drinking at home.

Asda recently slashed the price of its own value-brand beer to just 22p for a 440ml can following similar moves from Tesco and Sainsbury's. It puts the price of beer at 50p a litre (around 28p a pint). Own-brand water costs between 56p and 92p a litre, depending on the store, while own-brand cola costs between 56p to 65p a litre.

The difference between "on-trade" pub and "off-trade" shelf prices is now so wide that it would be cheaper for many pub owners to buy their alcohol in supermarkets than from their own suppliers.

TNS World Panel, a market researcher, said Scots spent £138.8 million on alcohol from supermarkets and off-licences in the run-up to Christmas and New Year.

Supermarkets often sell beer and wine cheaply in order to attract lucrative grocery shoppers, but village shops and convenience stores rely on the income from alcohol sales for their survival. According to the Association of Convenience Stores, beer, wine and spirits account for 14 per cent of smaller shops' profits and 18 per cent of their sales.

In 2005, off-sales licences in Scotland accounted for more than a third of the 17,059 liquor licences in Scotland. Of those, smaller shops accounted for 44 per cent, supermarkets 9 per cent and garages 2 per cent. In 2004, off-licence alcohol sales were broken down as 28 per cent beer, 44 per cent wine (including fortified wine), 22 per cent spirits, 3 per cent cider, and 3 per cent alcopops.

The trend worries alcohol campaigners because more than half of under-age drinkers get their alcohol from shops and supermarkets. Half of all vodka drinkers in Britain are under 35, and Scottish off-trade sales of vodka are rising at a rate of about 6 per cent a year.

Lager dominates the take-home market, with a 74 per cent share of all beer and cider sold in 2005.

Alcohol Focus Scotland says price promotions boost sales by up to 25 per cent for the duration of the offer, and 83 per cent of people who buy alcohol on promotion return for a second purchase.

ALASTAIR JAMIESON
CONSUMER AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 12 February 2008 12:48 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Alcohol & binge drinking
 
1

,

12/02/2008 00:02:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Jimmy the Pie,

12/02/2008 00:13:59
It is time something was done to cut the amount of alcohol being consummed. The big brewers are pushing their products very hard and they don't give a damn about the social misery and distress their products cause. Profit is all they care about. Why should society pick up all of the bill??
3

Mike Giggler,

12/02/2008 00:16:22
"At the moment, landlords pay £172 for a three-year licence, with a further £86 due every time a renewal is needed."

I pay £200 to get a road fund licence for my car! The man at the Post Office stamps it for me, not the full Licencing Committee!

Goodness knows how much it would cost to get a licence if the man at the Post Office had to posts adverts inviting objections to me renewing my car tax! Then deal with the objections and make a recommendation to the brown envelopes.
4

Rosie,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:16:41
Good idea, I hope it works.
5

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:20:01
This subject is getting tiresome!

It WILL NOT,,repeat WILL NOT, stop our teens from obtaining Booze! (1Billion FULL-STOPS)
All it is going to do is..'further tax us'!

Its Laughable!
And that's what our teens will do,
'Laugh-in-your-Face' and be MORE determined and obtain Booze!
Some teens may act like 'Muppet's' behave like 'Muppet's', but when it comes to their wants, they are clever, cunning and resourceful!
Are you Too Stupid to See This,?
Tax the Supermarkets,?
I hear the laughter now!
The only 'Muppet's' are the ones that came up with this,
'Hair Brain Idea'!
And only the rest of us will suffer!
6

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:22:46
Rosie @ #5,
It will never work!
Do you not hear the Laughter,?
7

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 00:31:25
And that picture,?
A teen getting her booze?
'Aye' Right then! 'As-If'.. get real!
This is the last thing she would do to get Booze!
Is this the 'Hilarity Channel' I hit on.?
Or somid,?
8

democrate,

central Scotland 12/02/2008 00:32:21
I too hope that this initiative will succeed. We are all aware of how alcohol and violence blight our society and it's more than high time that serious steps were taken to address this. Instead of talking it down, responsible adults should be right behind this. We can hardly complain about the ned culture and prisons overflowing with human casualties when we fail to address the underlying issues. Remember Jack McConnell referring to his town centre? How many Scottish town centres are no-go areas because of alcohol abuse?
9

Mike Giggler,

12/02/2008 00:39:31
'However, RETAILERS last night described the plans as "fundamentally flawed".'

RETAILERS - That will be TESCO, Sainsbury, Morrisons, LIDL etc?

These bully boys have the power to make or break Scottish/ British brewing.

TESCO are currently promoting the Boheme brand from the Czech Republic.

P.S. The "Scottish Government" is just a very, very big Toon Cooncil.
10

DouglasT,

12/02/2008 00:39:59
I think it is a good idea worth investigating. the proposals are 'subject to consultation', so to say it will never work without knowing what it is, seems illogical. Sure, its tough that we all have to pay more because of some dickheads but maybe it will encourage people to report underage sales, etc. And hey, we're getting more police to deal with them - maybe I'll see one in my town next year :)
11

Highland Mighty,

12/02/2008 00:43:34
Totally agree that this needs to be tackled but is taxing EVERYONE the way? Don't we get taxed enough as it is?

What is it with this country (as in the UK) that governments think 'more taxes' is the answer to everything?!

I won't even start with the incredible amount of additional red tape that this will involve with all the bands being proposed. Another thing we have too much already.

In summary, unoriginal solutions thqat have already been tried and have already failed.
12

subrosa,

12/02/2008 00:43:43
# 6/7/8

Ok you've made your point. What would you do? Or is your preferred tipple the status quo?
13

walter,

12/02/2008 00:49:34
Yet again instead of punishing the law breakers they are going to tax the shops that sell alcohol who will in turn pass the cost onto their customers.
The vast majority of the population who do buy and consume alcohol and those who don't are going to pay yet again for the few that cannot behave in a proper manner when under the influence or those that are breaking the law by consuming it as they are under age.
MacAskill says 15 teenagers aged between 13 and 15 were picked up by undercover police for under-age drinking but how many them were punished for breaking the law, Non I would bet.
14

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 12/02/2008 01:01:42
Good idea.

At least the Government are thinking about taking real action on real issues instead of Scottish Labour inaction.
15

Sanny,

Portugal 12/02/2008 01:11:07
Booze in Iberia is but a fraction of the price it is in the UK. The locals drink brandy and wine on most days. Go on any building site and there will be several beer bottles around. Children are allowed to drink wine with meals. So, why is it that you rarely see any local get fall down drunk?

Yet go to the tourist areas and see the British holidaymakers! They drink themselves unconscious on a nightly basis. Their behaviour is disgusting and outrageous making me ashamed to admit my own nationality.

This has nothing to do with the cost of booze it is a cultural thing. It is the culture we have to change. My Portuguese friends would die of embarrassment if they got themselves into the state where they were unable to control themselves.

Our youngsters seem to think there is something macho or adult about getting smashed. We have to ask ourselves why this is so and change they way our young society thinks. This is where the answers lie not in ever increasing taxes.
16

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 01:24:16
subrosa,@ #13,

If posters want to come on here and be 'YES' People and speculate nonsense, that's their prerogative.
(not meaning you)
I don't and will not speculate the rubbish and wont put up with it!
I live in the.. 'real-world'.. and tell it as it is!

"preferred tipple" well it looks like it will soon be taxed, by the ..Muppet Show!
"status quo?"
Give me a break! I am NOT interested in history and the,
'Dead and Goners'
I know the teens very well, this is the last thing that will stop them getting the booze!
Its 'Utter' Nonsense!
17

Buchanan,

12/02/2008 01:44:17
I guess the SNP did not get a 500 quid
donation from Tesco's :)

But seriously a good move from the Scottish Government
alchol abuse is a huge problem in Scotland.
18

Edward,

12/02/2008 01:54:51
#19 Sanny,Portugal
Whole heartedly agree , this is also my experiences in Portugal, where Im a regular visitor to the Lisbon area
All drinks are far cheaper than here. In fact go to a 'Cooperative' and you can pick up a 5 ltre flagon of decent wine for a lot less than mineral water!
Yet I have never seen any kids hanging about getting out the faces. The only people Ive seen drunk are Brit tourists!
It is very much a cultural thing
19

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 02:02:35
Buchanan, @ #21,

"But seriously a good move from the Scottish Government"
Get real!, read #19..#22
Now thats reality!
Why are you another 'YES' Person.?
20

Edward,

12/02/2008 02:08:56
At least the Scottish Government are taking the problem seriously, something that should have been tackled long ago, but the previous administration failed to do anything apart from there joke Asbo's
Allthough the idea of taxing the likes of Tesco's appeals to me greatly, realistically the problem has to be tackled with those that abuse. This may mean some unpalitable measures . Such as raising drinking age to 21, zero tolerance by the police, with the effect of penalising parents (after all why do they allow there kids to roam at will with drink in the hands!) The parents should be made responsible for there children upto the age of 18, where by the parent is subject to penalties and if re-occurring, jail time!
Some I know will say this is a bit heavy, but if this is what it takes then it should be done.
So basically raise drinking age, this makes it easy for Policing. Make parents responsible for children upto 18, for those 18 and over, they should be responsible for themselves and if they are caught with drink, then they should be fined. Every person, regardless of age should be made more responsible for there actions, leaving it to the government is just shifting it to someone else. Schools should also play there part in education children about alcohol abuse, they have sex education, why not alcohol education, perhaps then we will develop a better society
21

Eugene john,

12/02/2008 02:12:58
#22 Edward

Exactly. I live between several Southern Europe countries where alcohol is inepensive but where there is very little alcohol related violence or other social problems associated with alcohol consumption. The difference between mainland Europe and Scotland/UK is peoples attitudes to the use of alcohol and education about it.
22

subrosa,

12/02/2008 02:13:28
# 20

Thanks for your response. You haven't said what you would like to be done to halt this social disease of the excessive consumption of alcohol.

Personally I think trying to do something is far better than just talk. We need to do something for save the lives of young people and not allow them to kill themselves at a young age.
23

Buchanan,

12/02/2008 03:04:39
23 Charles Linskaill

Clearly you received you £500 donation from Tescos.

I'm behind the Scottish Government trying to do
something to tackle a major problem in Scotland.
Perhaps this is not the best way to tackle it, but
at least it is a start. I'm sure the Scottish Government will look forward to receiving your
alternate positive suggestions on how to tackle
this problem, assuming of course you can come
up some instead of the insulting drivel that
you post here.


24

Carlo,

Fort William 12/02/2008 03:19:11
Kenny!.....drop this right now!
It's a load of nonsense.....and ultimately will hobble the SNP with a ridiculous ungoverable policy!!!

Concentrate on something sensible that will add value to our drive to reduce binge drinking.......like removing the licenses from those retailers who continue to sell to the underage no matter what....!!!

Good retailers will be punished for the criminal acts of others!!
25

williamx,

canada 12/02/2008 04:39:12
If they are young try the US solution - no alcohol sold to under 21s. If found doing it loss of license and very heavy fines for liquor outlets.
For the SNP
If somebody buys the under age person booze - loss of all assets right down to the underpants.
Both laws should kill it off fast.
26

Fae Fife,

Seattle USA 12/02/2008 05:17:29
Some historical perspective here: the optimism of "Continental-style" cafe atmosphere in Scotland's pubs and open shelves of alcohol was, in the words of the reformers back in the seventies, meant to bring a transparency and defeat the gulp-and-go culture of 10pm closing. Maybe it is time to look entirely at the whole reform that took place...it seems to have failed. Not only is under-age drinking now more of a problem than it was then, but a whole generation has grown up with this read access to booze: in the corner shop, the supermarket (on open shelves, like cornflakes), even garage shops. Maybe the answer is not just to impose levies on the sellers but also greatly restrict the number of licenses, hours of sale and open availability of booze. With so much alcohol around is it any wonder that Scotland's youth want to consume it? But to do that the adults are going to have to do a bit of soul-searching - are you willing to pay more, have less availability (places and hours) in order to combat this huge social issue. After more than 20 years of this more liberal approach, it would appear that Scotland does not yet have the maturity of the countries it was trying to emulate. It is time to turn the clock back on a failed experiment. Put the booze back in restricted off-license spaces in supermarkets, limit the hours and limit the number of licenses. Taxi licenses are more limited than alcohol licenses in any Scottish town.
27

Very Rev Ian Paisley,

12/02/2008 05:48:15
When supermarkets are selling beer cheaper than water then something has to be done to make it more expensive I would have thought
28

terry osser,

morden 12/02/2008 06:22:44
snp short of money?
29

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 12/02/2008 06:39:57
#19 #22 and #25 : absolutely right. Too many people here, adults as well as young people, think there's something glamorous about drinking themselves stupid. It's the attitude that needs to change.
30

inoui,

Bordeaux 12/02/2008 06:41:18
We're all short of money!
Wine is cheaper than water here in Bordeaux along with many other things, but there is no booze/teenager problem! Though SNP/any UK government are looking for solutions I think the problem is at home and in the UK culture, not in the spermarket.
Prohibition didn't work in the US.
31

an interested party,

12/02/2008 06:48:02
raise the price of alcohol to far and a black market WILL appear, black marketeers will not have strict licensing laws to prevent them from selling alcohol to youngsters, or in fact morals and thus will also sell drugs and anything else the market will bare.

prohibition doesn't work! nor will it invest money in clearly underfunded youth services.
32

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 07:01:07
The SNP don't know what they are doing. This is the kind of stealth tax Brown prefers.

Here's a radical solution. Allow cheap drink here so that citizens can enjoy their lives and fine the parents of drunken youths/shopkeepers breaking terms of their license and fine the drunk and disorderly adults who need to use the service of a drunk tank.

I get drunk once a month, I don't go out to get high, but I don't pace myself either. Have been doing that for 18 years or more. Never been in a fight, never been in so much as an argument.

The SNP are taking off where Labour left us. Punishing the innocent to pay for the guilty. Or raising taxes to give it its formal term.
33

fife runner,

12/02/2008 07:02:03
you only have to go to A&Es to see how much time is wasted on dealing with excessive alcohol intake. Not forgetting those who are really ill trying to get an ambulance at the weekend as they attend scenes blighted by alcohol. Then there is police time.

It knows no social boundaries. Recent report says more is now consumed by higher classes. They can probably conceal their idiocy better than others.

I have known two people who died from excessive intake at early ages.
34

fife runner,

12/02/2008 07:03:08
37 why do you want to get drunk anyway? What a daft comment.
35

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 07:11:19
A drunk man does what a sober man thinks.

If you are an angry little twerp with a prepencity for violence then you will probably look for a fight and hurt someone while high on drugs like alcohol.

If you are an easy going responsible citizen then you will probably enjoy being in a brightly lit carnival for a couple hours. Laugh with your friends and regret not downing that second pint of water before bed.

If you are sleeping in your urine every week while lying in the gutter, no amount of tax will turn your life around.

The SNP want to tax the middle classes as per. They resent that people enjoy themselves once in a while.
36

John M,

Melbourne, Australia 12/02/2008 07:46:37
What's to stop the supermarkets putting up the prices on other goods in order to get the money to pay the special levy?

The off-licenses can't do that if 95% of their goods are alcohol.

The proposal would seem to be playing into the hands of the supermarket chains.

One approach might be to halve the legal limit of alcohol in beer and to price wine and spirits much higher.

Scandinavian countries had this problem and in at least one case the government took over the running of all liquor outlets and put prices up and imposed rather stringent shop hours (something like closed from 6pm Friday evening until 11am Monday morning). Very harsh penalties for bootlegging too.
37

conservative,

12/02/2008 07:54:12
Why should I be taxed because other people commit crimes? The SNP is just following another Labour practice - tax those who obey the law for the benefit of those who don't.
38

Scotty B,

Livingston 12/02/2008 07:55:19
It's about time something was done to the outlets that are the root of problem anti-social drinking - supermarkets and off licenses.

For far too long pubs have taken the brunt of the legislation against alcohol, despite them being the best regulated place for people to drink.

Pubs don't sell carry outs to 14 or 15 year old kids so they can get hammered in a park or street corner. That's down to irresponsible off licencees and supermarkets charging such ridiculously low prices. It's about time we stopped these loss leading prices and simply ban any place that sells alcohol to underage people from selling alcohol at all for 12 months at a time. That might focus them a bit more on what their responsibilities are.
39

cabrach loon,

La Massana 12/02/2008 07:58:50
This is not what SNP were voted in for - also it is no sensible solution. Where are the kids getting the money from? Penalise the parents, encourage or force evening educational activities in useful things that are trade and hobby and sport related. If need be mnake them compulsory. Emphasise the health aspects and damage done to the body for future life - it can be frightening.
Typical brainless solution - punish everyone else - I thought that went away with the Romans and Nazis! Even prohibition was a non-starter in the USA! Just lets the crims in and bootleg booze. India has trouble with impure spirit drunk at cut price by the poor - they die odf course!
40

lachlan,

12/02/2008 07:59:20
'Frank Soodeen, spokesman for Alcohol Concern, said: "The fact of the matter is that alcohol is no ordinary commodity.'
yes not in this coutry,in other countries where a more grown up attitude to alcohol prevails alcohol can be teated as an ordinary product.untill we stop seeing alcohol and getting drunk as matcho and funny we will struggle with this.making it harder to obtain will possibly only glorify the problem.it does'nt seem to work with with with drugs.
41

M.T.,

12/02/2008 08:00:21
If you don't pay road fund licence, your car can be crushed.
If a retailer sells alcohol to a minor, their licence should be revoked.
If anyone is caught purchasing alcohol for a minor, they should be heavily fined.
42

paulr,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:03:44
If you are going to introduce a 'polluter pays' levy then supermarkets and manufacturers should all be charged, for all the unnecessary and unwanted extra packaging they bundle goods in.
43

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 08:05:29
This seems like more of the right kind of noises from Kenny MacAskill. He was right about community sentencing, and he may well be right about this. Shame there aren't more like him in the SNP.
44

malkster,

Scotland 12/02/2008 08:05:42
Another populist measure from the control freak governmnet which will merely mean I pay more for my bottle of red wine. The bucky drinking neds that are ruining the country will carry on regardless.
45

conservative,

12/02/2008 08:07:49
#51 Duncan you are wrong there - there are plenty of idiots like MacAskill in the SNP ready to stick their hands into your (and my) pockets.
46

Argyll on line,

Argyll 12/02/2008 08:10:00
A very courageous first step to break the booze culture which is destroying youth.
47

K McDonald,

glasgow 12/02/2008 08:11:34
Sneaky socialist tax shakedown alert! Kenny wants his money that is in your pocket to spend as he sees fit.

The majority of people in Scotland drink responsibly, so why impose a tax on them? Why should the law abiding pay a penalty tax for the poor drinking habits of a few? The irresponsible will obtain drink regardless of the price.

I am afraid we are in for a dose of Scandinavian style nannyfication of our lives thanks to the nat socialists; identify a problem caused by a minority then punish the rest of the population...Brilliant piece of political thinking. I mean, look at all those smokers who quit because of the price.

Anyone for a fiver a pint, fiver a glass of wine or tenner a vodka & mixer?







48

OscarMacApfel,

Dumfries 12/02/2008 08:14:01
Sanny #19 and Edward #22, whereas I agree with you that on the surface Portuguese drunks do not appear as visible as their Scottish counterparts, I would hovever, suggest that, this is only part of the picture.

I have an Angolan documentary maker chum who made a heartbreaking doc about life in Casal Ventoso, Lisboa. At the time Europe's largest heroin ghetto, where the young mendicants appeared to binge drink every bit as much as the Scots binge drinkers. Obviously no one chooses to visit such areas, whilst either on holiday or on retirement, but sadly they do exist.

#10 Charles Linksail, you appear to have no other argument than you don't like taxes, are you employed by the Scottish Licensed Trade Association or a similar body?
49

Rob Simpson,

UK 12/02/2008 08:20:37
It seems, these days, politicians only have two answers to any problem; "tax it" or "ban it". Why exactly should the overwhelming majority be expected to be paid to use something they are perfectly capable of using in a responsible manner for the sake of the few who can't? That minority, when caught, face little more than a slap on the wrist. Perhaps the SNP could consider getting tough on them rather than tough on everyone. Though given some of the comments above you'd think i was proposing something radical and that higher taxes were a tried and tested solution.
50

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 08:25:14
>>>All these taxes, Stealth or otherwise, do is lead to deepending the divide between the rich and poor. Beer and wine was never meant to be in-accessable to the average person. Why make it so now?<<<

Precisely. If you take Scandinavia as an example the high price of alchohol does not lead to fewer or better behaved drinkers. What happens is that chaep illicit 90 proof moonshines are widely available This rocket fuel causes dozens of deaths every year.

If someone wants drink badly enough they will get it.

Time for the Police and courts to start doing their jobs by enforcing existing laws. Time to ditch the notion that complicated social problems can be taxed away. Punishing the many for the bad behaviour of a few is not right or just.
51

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 08:29:31
#57 Morning Dave. You have a point, but one key issue to face is that the cost of alcohol today, in real terms, is a fraction of what it used to be. Prices have been dropping very significantly. Not even a 100% tax imposed today would bring prices back up to levels comparable with 20 years ago. So it isn't as simple as taxing the poor out of their pleasures. We have been making alcohol easier and easier to access every year - so this could be considered as a mild redressing of the balance.
52

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:32:48
Rob Simpson @ #58,
Your correct, I mean to say,
Do you think a teen is gonna walk into a supermarket, with a 'wad-of-notes' hanging out their pockets, or their treasured 'piggy-bank' to Purchase Booze,?
Geezoo...'get-real'!!.. it the last thing the teens would do!
Stupid idiotic proposal!,, this is!
Unless they make it £200.00 for a bottle of wine,?
Is that it..?????
For Gods Sake!..
I have seen more intelegence in a 'pre-school' class!
53

Jopa,

Girvan 12/02/2008 08:42:31
I pay more in my Nurse Registration Fees than the Government are asking for this Booze Tax...Ironic to say the least!
54

Corstorphinery,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:50:06
# 61 Charles...

'Intelegence'......quod erat demonstrandum.
55

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12/02/2008 08:51:46
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56

jdships,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 08:52:29
Question

Why do I need seven off licences , one supermsrket snd a pub , all selling alchol , within a five hundred metre radius of my house ?
Surely before any tax is thought about let's look at the licencing laws/rules/conditions
57

2Right,

On Location 12/02/2008 08:52:37
It is cheaper to buy booze from the supermarkets than a bottle of water.
sort it out
58

G.,

Linlithgow 12/02/2008 08:54:38
Its not the supermarkets that are responsible for supplying booze to kids. Its the unscrupulous corner shops and off licenses that sell to under 18s.
59

,

12/02/2008 08:59:36
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60

hertscot,

12/02/2008 09:02:35
Its even easier than taxing the shops. If an offie or super market sells booze to under age drinkers then close the bloody place down for 6 months, it doesn't matter if it is Joe Bloggs or Tesco, and the particular store should not be considered for a new lisence for 24 months. It is up the the lisence holder to uphold the agreed terms and there fore they should be properly punished if they break them.
Then perhaps teenagers will not be able to get cheap booze so easily as retailers are forced to become accountable for their actions due to appropriate punishments for breaking the law.

Anyway, rant over and time for a dram, slante.
61

karinxx,

12/02/2008 09:06:27
Looks like all the jakeys on here are annoyed at the govenrnment getting in the way of their "little problem" with alcohol.
62

K McDonald,

glasgow 12/02/2008 09:08:10
>>>>>>>>>>Traditionally people start in the alcohol culture through family or social activities.
Perhaps the best way to counter the problem of drink is in a social manner.Generating opinon, debate and reflection.These aspects can be evidenced clearly through theatre.<<<

Correct. Hence the absence of such anti-social behaviour in med countries. In my youth there was an unwritten rule that you never drank with those who "couldnt handle their booze". By that I mean one embarrrasing night out with a friend who caused trouble when drunk was enough; you never drank with them again.

PS// I hope you are not angling for some of Kenny's tax payer mugging money to fund one of your dramatic productions ;-)

Prohibition (in varying degrees) has been tried tested and failed to stop people drinking. Once again, taxing the many for bad behaviour of the few is unjust and and will not reduce anti social drinking behaviour.
63

Nikostratos,

12/02/2008 09:11:35
This is just a stealth tax the snp need more cash and this is just a way to raise money and claim they are trying to tackle a social problem.Nu- labour would be proud of them.

Put the price up and you will end up with more 'Vans' making the booze trip to pick up cheap alcohol from across the border.
64

PlanA,

Glasgow 12/02/2008 09:14:56
Does Macaskill seriously think we will swallow this as a solution to our drinking culture? Another 'tax' would of course be required to make up the losses of the Forth Road Bridge tolls abolishion. In modern society's softly-softly treatment of such problems the politicians have completely removed the responsibility element as it's so much easier to blame third parties. When was the last time you read of an underage drinker being prosecuted or for that matter someone being arrested drunk in public - both were offences when I last checked. Creating an example of offenders has always been a deterrent yet such actions seem beyond today's leaders. We couldn't have the poor souls feeling humiliated now could we? No - it's much simpler to go for easier targets such as corner-shop owners trying to make a living.

65

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 09:20:10
>>>Looks like all the jakeys on here are annoyed at the govenrnment getting in the way of their "little problem" with alcohol.<<<


So an objection to paying an alcohol penalty tax for other peoples bad behaviour is an indicator of a personal problem with alcohol? Or are you just incapable of following a reasoned debate?

Please state exactly why and how increasing the price of booze by taxation will reduce anti-social behaviour associated with alcohol and why taxing the good behaviour of the many is a just policy?





66

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:22:18
There is certainly room for some increase here,but I think the amount that would be collected ,obviously has a ceiling,and eventually reaches a point where it drops again, because of falling sales, (which was of course its intention).
On the basis that money is finite then increasing the price should mean less consumption if for no other reason they cannot buy anymore.
The only down side is do alcoholic parents now buy even less food for the children to facilitate their habit, as a direct result of this initiative.

I agree however we have to try and reduce our national intake.Its too easy to go down the road of a wee drink ,and before you know it, you are the Rubber Man.
Taxing alcohol out of reach is normal in some Scandinavian countries,its even illegal in some others!
We can certainly raise taxes on our internal consumption.Westminster makes enough on our Whisky industry.I cannot see any reason why we should not follow suit.
Bad news for wine shops etc though.
Nothing is perfect of course.

Does Holyrood have a tax free bar?It soon will if it does not!
Ive already seen and drunk a bottle of HOUSE OF COMMONS WHISKY (many moons ago)which the Labour activist assures me he got free from his local MP. ( I never verified this of course).I cant remember if it was duty free for certain,but I know he paid NOTHING for it and claimed to have an endless supply(as if this was something to be proud of). No I will not mention any names. I gave my word as a young man that I would not disclose this in any meaningful detail ever. My word stands.Believe or not. Your choice.
67

Pension Lost!,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:23:28
At least they are willing to try new things. Will it work ..? I am not sure but it is certainly worth a try. It does seem a travesty that my Car tax cost more each year that a retailer pays for a license top sell booze!

As for Charles Linskaill comments. Charles lets hear something positive for a change. What is your solution then if you hate this one so much???
68

Thomas1,

12/02/2008 09:29:30
68 jdships
is that why your always steamin and can't spell proper
69

JimC,

Kilmarnock 12/02/2008 09:29:43
Given that you need to be 18 years of age to enter a public house, and the same to purchase drink, why not make it an offence to be in possession of or found to be under the influence of alcohol. An option of an on the spot fine or take your chances with the local sheriff. Three strikes and your referred to 6 weeks of week-end counselling sessions and community service.
70

Charles Linskaill,

.Edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:31:20
Pension @ #80,
When they pay me the same as the lunatics, that just escaped the asylum, then came up with this,
'hair-brain' idea, then I will tell you what needs done!
Teens never 'buy-booze' they get their piers to do it for a start!
71

Gothic Rose,

12/02/2008 09:31:55
Its enough to drive you to Drink!!!
72

,

12/02/2008 09:34:50
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73

,

12/02/2008 09:34:58
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74

Old Siggy,

Dunbar 12/02/2008 09:35:45
In a probably futile attempt to cut across the SNP/Labour/political drivel that invariably permeates these threads. I offer the following suggestion. I lived in Canada for a few years in the 80's. You could not buy booze from supermarkets but every town across the country had a "Liquor Commission". This is a government owned and controlled booze supermarket. Anyone who wanted to shop there had to have an ID card so it was virtually impossible for underage drinkers to buy alcohol. I am sure underage drinking still went on but it wasn't a national disgrace in the same way it is here!!
75

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 09:36:51
>>>On the basis that money is finite then increasing the price should mean less consumption if for no other reason they cannot buy anymore.<<

Who are "they" who cannot buy anymore? You mean the poor, dont you? Amongst "them", you may be surprised to learn, are a majority who are perfectly well behaved under the influence of alcohol. You may also be surprised to learn that middle class chappies also tend to cause problems under the influence - such a drunk driving, wife beating, child neglect, bar brawls etc.

Once again, give me the price increase that will surgically target and eliminate the problem drinkers (of all classes) without it having a detrimental financial affect on the well behaved majority.
76

Pension Lost!,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:38:52
I see Charles #83 so you are all about just slaging off others ideas but have none of your own. That is very easy to do but hardly productive. It always interests me to see people like you who are very quick to criticise but offer no answers.

I ask again if you know so much what is your solution mate?
77

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:40:47
77

The Erskine Bridge of course should be Toll free but not Edinburgh/Fife I suppose ?
I'm sure thats not what you infer,(at least I hope not),
but it does sound a bit like that!

I do however agree that we have failed to tackle this in the past ,and those few "solutions " which we did try failed abysmally.
WE should be prepared to try anything where we are sincere in our desire to improve the nations health.

What we should NOT do is dismiss any initiative without first giving it a run.

It will reduce consumption,simply because you can afford less, but its true that we punish everybody for the failures of the few.
It also follows that we punish proportionately to how guilty you are! If you don't drink you pay nothing!
That point certainly is true.
An informed judgement has a pre-requisite .Its called evidence.
Lets see what happens. Then if as you say it has made no appreciable difference then we need to look again.
First though WE TRY IT !

Public Opinion has its place.Informed Public Opinion is better.
78

AyrshireScot™,

12/02/2008 09:40:59
That explains everything: for years we’ve all been wondering why ordinary Scots just don’t want to listen to our independence message, but now we know why: they’re all so boozed up most of the time that they’re just not prepared to watch Newsnight Scotland and listen to all our high calibre SNP politicians who just love to extol the benefits of independence.

Stop them boozing and they’ll listen to SNP politicians on Good Morning Scotland and switch off Scot FM and Radio 1! Our SNP team are a vast improvement on the Labour non entities and people would know that independence is the only logical course for our once proud nation if only they stopped drinking for a second and listened to our message! It’s time for Scots to stop drinking and for their country to take its rightful place in the community of nations! I am the sober voice of Ayrshire, Scotland and the EU and it’s time for everyone out there to put down their glasses and listen! I am Ayrshire Scot! I know things!
79

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 09:44:06
?>>>>this is the same kenny mcaskill that was held in the cells at wembley because he was drunk and disorderly at the england v scotland game and was not jailed because he was a m.s.p at the mickey mouse parliament. dont lecture me mcaskill about handling my drink.<<<<

Didn't know that. Pah! If true then Kenny is the right man to tell us exactly how much the price of alcohol has to increase to prevent him repeating his anti-social behaviour. He should tell well behaved majority this price and apologise to us for having to pay a tax penalty to keep him on the straight and narrow.
80

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 09:52:45
88
Well behaved people dont spend money on alcohol unless they can afford it.
Thats called responsible behaviour.

Poor people will be able to buy less. Very true. Poor people should be buying less, and feed their families first, and we should NOT encourage them to drink excessively. Nobody benefits from alcohol consumption.

I agree a few drinks in moderation does no one appreciable harm. It also costs proportionately less by virtue of the fact that you bought less,and thats arithmetical fact!

I repeat this works on a pro rata basis.
If you are poor you should be buying alcohol as the last item on your shopping list and in proportion to what you can afford.

If this government had a decent pension/unemployment pay out and minimum wage in keeping with other European nations we would not have POOR people,but thats another argument of course.
The nations health is far more important than the price of a can of beer, and if you really feel that hard done by why dont you ask Gordon to reduce the 90% of the whisky bottle which is taxation!
81

AJ Fife,

12/02/2008 09:53:35
Isn't it great that we now have a government that actually care about our children's future and our society in general? Maybe it's my imagination, but it's like the SNP government have done more for Scotland in a few months, than Labour did in 8 awful years at the helm!
82

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 09:54:33
>>>WE should be prepared to try anything where we are sincere in our desire to improve the nations health.<<<

Including financially punishing those who have behaved responsibly!

>>>It will reduce consumption,simply because you can afford less, but its true that we punish everybody for the failures of the few.
It also follows that we punish proportionately to how guilty you are! If you don't drink you pay nothing!<<<<

So there is an incremental scale of anti-social behaviour that begins with the first drink and adds up from there? All drinkers are guilty then? So you advocate the whole country stops drinking to avoid being punished for the actions of the few. Brilliant idea. Freedom Gin, anyone?






83

Rampant Warrior,

12/02/2008 09:54:39
Scribes,

Solution to the problem.

Teens found drunk in the public domain - National Service.

Shopkeepers found selling alcohol to teenagers - National Service. If not UK citizens All assets sequestrated and deportation.
84

David MacVicar,

web 12/02/2008 09:54:39
The price of alchohol on the continent is far cheaper and they dont have this 'culture' issue.
The price of alchohol due to tax in the Nordics is far higher but they too have similar alcohol issues.

Taxing us higher is not good for us but it is good for government. I am therefore against this as a preventative measure. The SNP need to rethink this and a long term attitude change is required there is no quick tax fix.

Taxing Supermarkets and then passing it to local business would be a good idea though.
85

NovaScotia™,

12/02/2008 09:54:41
#91 Ayrshire Scot: what’s Newsnight Scotland and why are you so keen for everyone to suddenly start watching it? Why, for that matter, do you assume that it’s of no interest to drunks?
86

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 09:54:43
#86 Attacking MacAskill for a past indiscretion is gutter politics, and has no relevance to this debate. He is one of the few SNP politicians who talks sense.

#92 It is only half true. He wasn't charged with anything.
87

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 09:56:34
#94 You must have strong memories of what Scottish politicians were like 8 years ago then, AJ. When you were six.
88

subrosa,

12/02/2008 09:58:35
conservative, 12/02/2008 08:07:49

The Tories are on side with this proposal. What do you suggest? It is only a proposal and I'm quite sure the government would welcome a comment or two from you.

I come down on the side of heavy fines for parents of those found drinking underage. Also the age should be raised to 21. The bars should be closed at midnight at the latest. This will not affect the pub trade as such because it's clubs who open until the middle of the night not pubs. Anyone found drunk and disorderly should be immediately locked in a cell overnight - call them drunk tanks or whatever. Stop this slap on the wrist business and let's get hold of the problem.

Trying to emulate a continental lifestyle here concerning the consumption of alcohol was never going to work. We don't have that culture. All that 24x7 drinking has done is encourage more drinking, more bingeing. We were told at the time that it would do away with the 'get them down' at 11pm. Now it's get them down all night. As some posters have said the drain on our services ie police, medical is horrendous at weekends.
89

AJ Fife,

12/02/2008 09:59:08
#86,

It was a price worth paying, as he was only voicing concern about the BNP England supporters that were attacking the world famous and peace loving Tartan Army!

Why is it that the rest of world love Scots, but baulk in disgust at the mere mention of the English?
90

AJ Fife,

12/02/2008 10:00:53
Dunc#100,

I was ahead of the class at the age of 6!:)
91

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:01:16
>>>Isn't it great that we now have a government that actually care about our children's future and our society in general? Maybe it's my imagination, but it's like the SNP government have done more for Scotland in a few months, than Labour did in 8 awful years at the helm!>>>>


We all care! What we dont agree on is the solutions. Increasing the price of alcohol is a blunt instrument that penalises the well behaved more than it inhibits the behaviour of the minority abusers.

Police should enforce the law and jail underage drinkers and those who sell alcohol to them. Courts should prosecute and jail. Individuals should avoid the company of those who cannot handle their booze. Social services should enforce child protection laws.

Taxing is not a solution or else no one would smoke cigarettes.
92

Jed Zeppelin,

Sobriety 12/02/2008 10:02:26
...well - it's a start i suppose. I'm in favour of any plan that stops this nation drinking it's soul away. these cut price offies are everywhere - the more deprived an area - the more off licences will be present, ready to sell 'instant personality juice' to any of the society rejects who, not content with their owns lives being void of anything positive, want to drag the rest of us down with them. These folk have no focus, no present and certainly no future - unless they are Educated about it, and even then they won't 'cos learning is for 'snobs' apparently!

we have the biggest population of utter wasters devoid of any social responsibility with their hands constantly out, grubbing for benefits...

unless they are willing to change, then it's time to kick these people into touch... and the rest of us should look at getting rid of our alcohol crutch... it's embarrassing.
93

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 10:03:29
#63 Dave, you're right of course, but keeping alcohol prices steady, instead of making it more and more accessible, is I think a good start.

Equally, as others have said, we need to look carefully at the licensing system. Perhaps supermarkets should simply not be given alcohol licences? This might also help to shore up the position of smaller local shops, who would have the opportunity to apply for a licence (although not be guaranteed to get one). There would be howls from the alcohol industry, but we need somehow to make drink less accessible, and that might be one approach.
94

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 10:07:04
92

Kenny mcCaskill was not involved in Unsocial behaviour. He will have been singing a few songs though, that I do not doubt. Thats not a crime.
He has not had a drink since as far as I know.
He was not "disorderly" by the way, and its on record that he co-operated with the Police fully. Kenny McCaskill is a lively person always, and it has nothing to do with drink. Hes exactly the same exhuberant person now, as he was, when he did drink ,and everybody in the Holyrood chamber is only too well aware of this.Even the opposition Mps would acknowledge this in fairness.The fact that he has never touched a drink since ,(publicly anyway)suggests that he knows only too well the dangers of the evil.That qualifies him rather than disqualifies him I would have thought!
95

sweet76,

12/02/2008 10:08:16
Sounds like a good idea to me but would have to be implemented accross Britain. A rise in supermarket overheads would be passed on to the products sold, forcing up the price of alcohol and creating a prohibition situation.
The consequence would be a flood of illicit booze flooding Scotland from N.Ireland and England. A compromise may be to exempt Pubs from the intended tax, putting more police on the streets during pub opening hours and boosting the number of customs officers. The problem being that more customs officers would detect more illegal immigrants and incur the normal shouts of racism, not to mention some middle class lefty, numpty saying it's a violation of human rights in some way.
I wish I hadn't thought about it now!
96

subrosa,

12/02/2008 10:09:47
# 92
?>>>>this is the same kenny mcaskill that was held in the cells at wembley because he was drunk and disorderly at the england v scotland game and was not jailed because he was a m.s.p at the mickey mouse parliament. dont lecture me mcaskill about handling my drink.<<<<

Well why don't you ask Lord (make it a double) Foulkes? Oh I remember......he's the man who beats up old wimmin when he's drunk and belts the police for good measure.

Make a constructive comment please!
97

AyrshireScot™,

12/02/2008 10:10:03
#98 Nova Scotia: you know the Friday Night Project (which is soon due to come back for a new series and is much watched by drinkers such as you when they could instead be hearing all about the benefits of independence?) Well, try putting down your beer glass for a change and switching over to BBC2’s Newsnight Scotland segment instead and watch the “A Team” of articulate and persuasive politicians, such as Nicola Sturgeon and Stewart Stevenson. Of course, you will also have to put up with the laughable ramblings of unionist quislings such as Andy Kerr, but you’ve got to take the rough with the smooth when you’re off the booze. Keep at it and I’ll be welcoming you to the Nat fold before too long! Your re-education as a Nat starts here! I am Ayrshire Scot the Nationalist teacher and guru!
98

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 12/02/2008 10:12:23
Hello All,

This is sheer idiocy, more Socialist/Social Progressive mindlessness, and a nothing more than a ploy to rake in more tax revenue from the unwitting!

Waylaying the Supermarkets and Mom and Pop shops for teen and adult binge drinking has ZERO logic to it.

It'd be the same thing as taxing Ford, Rover, Jag, Volvo, Saab, BMW, Audio, etc., every time one of their vehicles was involved in an accident!!!

Last time I checked, the GUILTY party is SUPPOSED to be tasked with RESPONSIBILITY for their actions, but the Politically Correct Twits (Social Progressives) do NOT believe in laying blame upon the parties actually responsible, the PC Crowd want to blame from a politically motivated standpoint!

"It's not the drug addict's fault-SOCIETY is to blame!"

Hogwash and Horse manure!!

The whole PC concept of being 'non-judgemental' is what has lead to this sorry state of affairs, on BOTH sides of the Pond.

Fine the DRUNKS HEAVILY for being drunk in public.
JAIL ALL criminals and give them HARD LABOUR, and YES, that means Teenagers! Teens can learn to read, write, and do math behind bars, and I would argue, BETTER and faster, than on the outside.

Hooligans MUST be taught that actions have consequences.

First however, we need to teach that same lesson to the idiot Politically Correct Twits, who are so in favor of taxing the Supermarkets.

You sorry lot have ZERO brains.

Cheers from the Rockies

99

celticsnowdrop,

12/02/2008 10:15:18
as a child I grew up with my mam and dad having a good old drink and party a real get together of friends and neighbours , I also had a friend who had a dad and the whole family lived in fear of a saturday night because if rangers won they got sweeties and if rangers lost the mam got belted all over the house.......his excuse.....It was the drink.I don,t drink and 45years later I can still see my friend sitting in the freezing cold stairs outside listening to the radio for results. We have a sad future ahead of us if we cannot get this booze nation under control.
Any shop selling alcohol to underages must lose their licence no IFs BUTs When,s or Hows just do it. What chance do our future generations have with the constant was against alcohol and drugs.
100

celticsnowdrop,

12/02/2008 10:16:25
sorry WAR
101

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 10:19:17
#111 With your counter-attack about Foulkes you are being just as non-constructive as the poster you criticise.
102

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 10:20:11
109 I suppose it depends upon how much you are drinking and how much you are spilling.

Ps I have been there ,got the T shirt,and I also no longer drink in any quantity at all.
I also stopped smoking. Ive never regretted either.
103

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:20:13
>>>Well why don't you ask Lord (make it a double) Foulkes? Oh I remember......he's the man who beats up old wimmin when he's drunk and belts the police for good measure.

Make a constructive comment please!>>>>


Ok, is George Foulkes (or Lord Watson) postulating a political policy that people should be taxed to stop them drinking in an anti-social way? Or is Kenny Mc Askill?

You nats really are super-sensitive to inquiry, criticism and debate. As you are in government you are required to answer questions on how your policy will work in practice. So far you have failed to do so. Your policy is unworkable, unjust and unfair.
104

,

12/02/2008 10:24:19
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105

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:24:39
>>>Ps I have been there ,got the T shirt,and I also no longer drink in any quantity at all.>>

Good for you. I applaud that you excercised your free choice to do so. However you seem to have fallen into the mentality of a lot of former abuser: it was no good for you therefore no one else can have it either.


>>>I also stopped smoking. Ive never regretted either.>>>

I quit 4 years ago, but not because they were too expensive to buy. What about you?
106

ianH,

Balerno 12/02/2008 10:30:02
*41
Where does that put Kenny, in the same boat as lord watson
107

karinxx,

12/02/2008 10:32:33
78 well if the cap fits?

Why are you protesting so much otherwise? Will you not be able to get by without your daily drink. Did you also protest about the labour government and taxing smokers.

I think making the big shops pay is a great idea. I dont see how it has anything to do with tax? The article said that off licences would be charged a levy for selling alchol. quite right.

I think anyyone who is saying the price of my drink will go up is obviously an alcoholic. Why else would they protest?
108

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 12/02/2008 10:32:39
The price of booze is only relevant in that people will drink poorer quality alcohal to get drunk. This will have a negative effect on their health.

I can't believe this nonsense from the SNP. The price of booze is the least of the crimes committed by supermarkets.

In Spain booze are cheap and you don't have binge drinking. There is a booze culture in Scotland and this is exascerabated by social problems. People are under so much pressure to be efficient, to pay debt, to buy consumer goods, to not get sacked, to pay mortgages, to survive that letting off steam in an extreme way is normal. You get hammered to deal with stress...

Investing money in activities which destress people or in educating bosses and so on on how to avoid stressing workers out for nothing would be far more sensible that this tripe.
109

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:39:04
>>>>Kenny mcCaskill was not involved in Unsocial behaviour. He will have been singing a few songs though, that I do not doubt. Thats not a crime.
He has not had a drink since as far as I know.
He was not "disorderly" by the way, and its on record that he co-operated with the Police fully. Kenny McCaskill is a lively person always, and it has nothing to do with drink. Hes exactly the same exhuberant person now, as he was, when he did drink ,and everybody in the Holyrood chamber is only too well aware of this.Even the opposition Mps would acknowledge this in fairness.The fact that he has never touched a drink since ,(publicly anyway)suggests that he knows only too well the dangers of the evil.That qualifies him rather than disqualifies him I would have thought!<<<<

Why did he stop drinking if it was nothing to do with booze? Is it possible that he stopped because he was wise enought to realise that HE could not handle booze without making a fool of himself - for which I applaud his maturity and self realisation.

What I disagree with is his belief that booze was no good for him therefore no-one else should have it, including those who dont make a fool of themselves when drunk.


110

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 10:39:54
122
Yes
It was because of the price.
I happen to know from medical tests, that whilst smoking is never to be encouraged, it was not a problem in my case. I simply deicided that since I had often stopped smoking,(ie failed after a few weeks)it was only to find that in the pub I invariably drank and smoked, whilst I would dearly have loved to stop, (I tried God knows how many times).
The smoking ban allowed me to accomplish this partly ,plus I was drinking nothing anyway,and the price which was as prominent in my mind as any health issue won the day.

Price/tax increase did help,but in conjunction with other factors (the important one being I wanted to stop burning money).IT DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYBODY of course. I doubt that anything does,but we will not solve this problem unless wemake informed judgements and thats what this is an attepmpt to do.
If it makes no appreciable difference or the effect is not what we wanted then we look again.

FIRST WE FIND OUT !
Its all very well us all giving our opinions,(and I respect the fact that you care enough to spare the time) but we need to work together on this,and we should certainly STOP trying to score cheap political points off each other.

I repeat the nations health cannot be measured in money.It certainly is worth more consideration than the price of a can of beer.

Lets work together here . A good start would be lets find out what happens.
111

karinxx,

12/02/2008 10:44:38
to everyone saying this is a bad idea especially 78 can i just say read this link.

http://www.admitservices.co.uk/
112

Neil,

Glasgow 12/02/2008 10:50:33
I foresee lots of people doing their weekly shopping in Berwick & Carlisle.

Intrinsicly I don't disapprove of higher taxes on alcohol & other destructive habits if (1) there is an equal reduction elsewhere so that it is not just as excuse for bigger government & (2) it doesn't just export jobs.
113

Gothic Rose,

12/02/2008 10:52:43
95. A bit early.:)
114

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:53:18
>>>Its all very well us all giving our opinions,(and I respect the fact that you care enough to spare the time) but we need to work together on this,and we should certainly STOP trying to score cheap political points off each other.>>.

Morris, I have done my best to avoid point scoring - i am not a nat or nu-lab or tory or libdem. I have kept my argument within the terms of the debate. Namely that increasing the price of alcohol to reduce anti-social behaviour is flawed. It penalises the well behaved and does not prevert those who dont behave from getting their hands on alcohol.

My solution is to enforce the existing laws, as I wrote earlier. People need to take responsibility for their own behaviour, like Kenny Mc seems to have done. But what you cannot do is force people to stop problem drinkers drinking by increasing the price across the board.

Like most people I stopped smoking when I realised I was an addict. The addiction was harming my health. The cost was secondary. If I wanted smokes I would have got them, regardless of the price.
115

Miss H,

12/02/2008 10:54:26
Couple of points. People who are saying that we need to do more to tackle the law breakers and deal with the underlying problem - yes of course we do. That costs money. Who is going to pay for it? The general tax payer or the industry which makes huge profits from selling alcohol in the first place? Yes some of that cost will be passed on to their customers. So what? This is about getting real about the level of damage being wrought in our society by too much drinking. It is time we faced up to that and this is one way of doing it.

The other point is that - yes of course it is a cultural thing and that is why we need to change the culture from one which tacitly or otherwise approves of heavy drinking to one which disapproves of it. Again, this is part of that process.



116

kimba,

12/02/2008 10:55:55
Don't think it will work,but they have to pay for all the freebies so let the money laiden supermarkets pay.
117

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:56:25
>>>to everyone saying this is a bad idea especially 78 can i just say read this link.

http://www.admitservices.co.uk/>>>

Karin not everyone who drinks alcohol is an alcoholic who needs this type of help. You want to stop everyone drinking because a few people have a predisposition to alcohol addiction. That is authoritarian and plain wrong.
118

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 10:57:30
>>>Nice to see the SNP are trying to tackle this problem with practical measures.>>>

It is not practical because it wont work. It will only penalise the majority who behave themselves.
119

kimba,

12/02/2008 10:58:32
136. Funny that, they didn't ignore the problem in England,anyone who buys alcohol in England has to show some ID.
120

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 11:00:59
>>>Couple of points. People who are saying that we need to do more to tackle the law breakers and deal with the underlying problem - yes of course we do. That costs money. Who is going to pay for it? The general tax payer or the industry which makes huge profits from selling alcohol in the first place? >>>

We have a thousand (?) new police officers after last weeks budget. Get them to work busting unscrupulous off licenses.

The alcohol industry is already taxed at source. This porposal adds an additional tax penalty to the majority well behaved consumers.


121

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 11:01:52
#136 Labour did not ignore stuff like this. Such sweeping statements are not only grossly unfair but frankly unsupportable.

I understand that you think the SNP are aces, but you need to understand that many politicians have the good of the nation at the heart of their policies too.

At the moment MacAskill has talked about this, but action has not yet happened. So before you congratulate the SNP for something they haven't done, and criticise Labour despite what they have done, you should probably stop and think how much damage party-political point-scoring is doing to the task of getting things done for our country.
122

Calum Crubag,

Alba gu brath! 12/02/2008 11:02:33
What about supporting the whisky trade though? It provides some £2billion or more to the British (should be Scottish though) economy and is still cheaper abroad than in it's home country.

Prisean nas saoire air uisge-beatha! Slàinte mhath.
123

Calum Crubag,

Alba gu brath! 12/02/2008 11:02:40
What about supporting the whisky trade though? It provides some £2billion or more to the British (should be Scottish though) economy and is still cheaper abroad than in it's home country.

Prisean nas saoire air uisge-beatha! Slàinte mhath.
124

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 11:03:20
>>>K Macdonald - everybody makes a fool of themselves after abuot 8 pints. Everybody>>>

Agree, but most responsible people stop well beofre 8 pints. Those who get to 8 pints will get there regardless of the price.
125

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:04:21
127

Ken (I presume)

I agree that some people do have a capacity for behaving whilst intoxicated, which is far higher than others.Thank God for that !
An old friend of mine (a musician) used to say to the odd member of the audience that you should nae drink on an empty heid. How true that was!


I agree that any taxation hits everybody, and I give it a very cautious welcome only.I agree to try it rather than endorse it.

You are already paying 90% of your dram to Alasdair Darling.
I understand your anger that you pay a fine in your eyes for the crimes of others.

I was a singer/musician and was never sure if I performed better when half gassed, or was just better protected against the noise I was making.It was probably the latter after a certain point.

When someone says that they are well behaved when drunk,thats possibly true, and its equally true that their judgement is impaired.
It reminds me of the man who was always drunk ,and he promised his wife that starting tomorrow he would only drink Shandy.
The following night he returned home staggering as usual.
His wife shouted at him WHAT HAPPENED TO THE SHANDY THEN ?
I am drinking shandy dear he quipped. Ive got twenty pints of beer inside me stomach and Ive got three bottles of lemonade here in this bag.I'm drinking them tomorrow morning.


Where alcohol is involved the rules change dramatically,and I'm afraid that in our attempts to solve our drink culture problem,that we need to try everything to see what happens .I'm not saying it will be the answer to everything.I simply don't know,and I think theres only one way that I will ever know, and thats TRY IT. It may indeed be a "success" like the Shandy !We shall see.
126

Sgurr,

12/02/2008 11:04:41
oh dear.....insane driblings of the mooth from the sooth are back. Interesting how sales of buckfast are huge in parts of Scotland, and sales of special brew are huge in the NE of England...they evidently need to curb that.
127

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:05:06
138 do smokers have a predisposition to be nicotine addicts then? how often do you have to smoke before your addicted. ARe people who smoke once a week smokers or not.

does taking heroin once or twice make you a junkie or not?

How often do you have to drink to have a drink problem? Just morning just weekends or just when your shouting about not being able to pay for it.

What is the the point where you become an alky? and i dont mean your opinion i mean proven fact or link?



128

Miss H,

12/02/2008 11:06:22
127 he hasn't stopped drinking. He has however given up the weekends away with the tartan army. He's getting on a bit you know. In any case I really don't think that the government's entire policy is based on the fact that Kenny was lifted one night while p****d, with a thousand other Scotland supporters! The relevance of that experience I would argue is that it shows this is a real person, not someobody who has lived in an ivory tower for all his life.

It's important I think to realise that this is not about trying to make everryone teetotal or say you should never ever get drunk. Of course people will get drunk from timt to time - but it should be from time to time, not every weekend.
129

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:06:55
K mcdonald face it your an alky............
130

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:10:28
140

I suspect that was aimed at stopping consumption(well purchase anyway) under the age of 18 Kimba,rather than stopping excessive drinking which can involve all age groups,but I do accept that it has a part to play. I suspect the solution to this is a combination of various initiatives,and thats if it exists at all .
A useful contribution though,as indeed are all suggestions where there is a genuine concern and desire to solve this.
131

kimba,

12/02/2008 11:12:03
148. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder a mile wide,but don't worry I have the cure;go and take a long walk off a short pier!
132

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:14:13
anyone who complains about this is an alky.
133

Miss H,

12/02/2008 11:14:38
141 Get a grip. We need those extra police to deal with the crime and the violence on our streets - in most cases fuelled by alcohol!

I would like to be able to phone 999 when I see a disturbance and actually have some chance of the police getting there the same day! Not the day after.
That's what those 1000 extra police officers should be dedicated to.

I agree we could do with extra officers dedicated to busting unscrupulous off sales. If we want the funding for that it has to come from somewhere. It is not going to come out of the budget which is already allocated.
134

kimba,

12/02/2008 11:15:11
morris. No,if you look or are suspected to be under 21 some form of ID must be produced.
135

Number 6,

Germany 12/02/2008 11:15:23
Alcohol abuse is Scotland's biggest social blight. Personally, I see no reason why supermarkets and corner shops are allowed to sell alcohol. Restrict the sale to liscenced premises and off -licences. Crack down harder on those premises that allow under age drinking and remove their licence for repeat offenders.

We must take aggressive action and not just sit on our hands like Labour would have us. Otherwise the problem will get worse.
136

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:17:00
This is absolutely outrageous and stupid.

SCOTLAND DOES NOT HAVE A DRINK PROBLEM. End of story.

Why should I have to pay extra for my drink, which is taxed at far too high a rate in any case, because of a minority of morons who can't handle theirs properly?

Laws already exist to deal with idiots who cannot handle their drink. Enforce them and leave the rest of us alone. I thought that this stupid "anti" disease would dissappear once we got the stupid labour party out of power, but it appears that I was wrong.
137

Number 6,

Germany 12/02/2008 11:18:18
Duncan142 Can you share with the group what exactly Labour have done to fight alcohol abuse in Scotland?
138

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:20:40
156 thankyou for that mario A. very interesting.

that gives k mcdonald a score of at least 1. I wonder if they do any of the others?
139

Lock,

12/02/2008 11:21:46
The only solution is the implementation of strict Islamic law.

Adding tax to a product with an inelastic demand curve does not reduce demand and consumption. All it does is increase the tax intake, the price and the divide between rich and poor.

140

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 11:21:48
Miss H

You ask who is going to pay for the problem? And then summise it should be the alcohol industry and then conclude they will pass this cost onto the consumer.

Some brilliant "Nationalist" logic there.

Here is who should pay for the harm done by "crime", drum roll please.... the Criminal! I mean to say, let's think outside the box on this one. We could have a police force who catches them, a criminal court who tries them and then fines them if guilty and it pays for itself.

The SNP are doing exactly what Labour did, trying to externalise crime from the criminal system, blame the compliant and responsible, after all it's easier to pin it to them than do some work.

141

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:22:02
159 perhaps you should answer the questions at 156 cos your obviously annoyed at the government for critising your drinking.
142

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:23:12
165 by that logic then if the shops are pushing alcohol then drug pushers shouldnt be charged?
143

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:23:35
165 another alky
144

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:23:49
wow i could get a job at this.
145

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:25:03
mario i think your on to something here. apparently half the country are alkies!!!!!

judging by the number of complainers.
146

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 11:25:07
Here's how middle class white collar crime works.

Get caught speeding, plead guilty - pay a hefty fine or defend in court (no legal aid no guilty pleas allowed until last minute), pays for more cops to fine you more, do it 3 or 4 times and you lose your right to drive.

Here is a radical solution for unsociable crime. Get caught fighting, no legal aid not guilty please to last minute, pay a hefty fine. Get caught doing it 3 times jail.

Radical or what.

SNP solution. Don't catch anyone, fine everyone, guilty or not.
147

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:26:36
150

I think he has stopped drinking publicly as far as I can tell.
I say this based upon, I amongst many otheres,used to drink in his company every Friday and have not seen him accept/ take a drink since, but then I rarely see him out at all now.
He may still have a wee dram at home of course I have no idea on that score. The point is that Kenny is exactly the same lively person as he ever was,and it has nothing to do with drink.
One thing I know is that Kenny McCaskill is never guilty of unsociable behaviour.
If he is guilty of anything hes somehwere between normal and too sociable if you get my drift.
A very very pleasant company indeed ,I can assure you, and I suspect you also may know him.

You make him sound like Methusela !Hes not that old (Im pmsl here by the way).Ive always said that everybody is the same age,its just that we cannot agree when it should happen.
148

Nikostratos,

12/02/2008 11:28:43
#79 morris,

Morris is in morrisworld again..Duh
"increasing the price should mean less consumption if for no other reason they cannot buy anymore" he says

No morris and other snp drones..what people do is they get a van drive to England buy all the drink they can and then return and sell it cheaper than at the higher level of snp taxed drink to eager Scots consumers.

you see it is the same principle of lowering corporation tax the snp keep repeating so they can attract more business...a bit like Ireland but unfortunately that little trick has run its course.

so Morris the English state will be grateful for all the extra trade the snp send it's way..meanwhile the scottish licensed trade go bust..thaks very much snp Dogma.

then# 147 this drivel
"I agree that any taxation hits everybody, and I give it a very cautious welcome only.I agree to try it rather than endorse it."

no it only hits those who continue to pay the higher level of snp tax as opposed to those who buy the cheaper imported English drink.

and whats the point of trying it when it will drive out Scots businesses which may never return.


reminds of the good old days of the duty free runs to the channel ports..nice little earner there i must say.

what a crock of sh@@ this daft idea really is and if they got any sense they will ditch it....the only people to gain any benefit will be English and European suppliers and any Scot with the wit to hire a van for a few days
149

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 11:29:21
Karinxx

You are an idiot. You ask what is the difference between a corner shop selling alcohol and a drug dealer.

One is breaking the law, the other is not.

Radical solution for the dumb # 112 Only fine people who break the law.
150

Karin M,

12/02/2008 11:33:50
#170 karinxx: begone, fakie! How dare u insult us Scot’s by calling us alkie’s! We only drink when we’re happy and we’ve been happy ever since we got rid of labour! Now, settle down and be a nice young lady, we dont want any of your usual misbehaviour on hear (which often make’s me wonder if you have a drink yourself before u go online!)
151

Gothic Rose,

12/02/2008 11:35:11
169#Yes you could.May I suggest, in image promotion that,you change your name from,Karinxx to KarinKGB.
152

elizajane,

work 12/02/2008 11:35:14
if snp tax alcohol does that mean they will then have the money to fund repairs on the now non toll paying bridges? or maybe train more primary teachers, build more schools and reduce class sizes?
153

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:35:25
157

Okay Thank You!
I stand corrected .
age 21 not 18.
It is age related was my point,but I agree it's as much a part of the solution as anything can be presumably.

I was intrigued by the possibilty of people driving over the border, to buy their plonk in Carlisle or Berwick to avoid the higher duty.
There used to be a pub which was actually ON both sides of the border ,and the regulars used to drink in the other half of the bar one hour longer.
I dont suppose anybody knows if this pub still exists ?
I always thought that was quite quaint.
Im not sure if it was the Bluebell Inn at Crookham,it may have been.
154

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:35:25
175 ah but not everyone who breaks the law should go to court. Look at wendy alexander broke the law never got done.
155

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:37:42
ahhh look my fakey. i must be annoying another unionist alky.
156

Allan(handofgod137),

12/02/2008 11:38:12
Tackle the root cause instead, the bevvy culture is directly related to the giro culture.
157

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:41:17
184 now where would the money for this come from. i know mario lets make the bleedin shops pay???

god the alkies brains are so pickled in they cant see the wood from the woodpeckers cider.
158

Memyself&I,

12/02/2008 11:41:29
Ridiculous.
Again, this is just another stealth tax designed (in part) to pay for the police officers that the SNP promised but cannot deliver on.
Its also ridiculous that Boozers pay so little for their license. But the same charges should apply across the board.
A drunks only hotel for Edinburgh. What a joke. This is neither required nor wanted. WTF am I paying my taxes for?!!
Tax the supermarkets for their loss making sales of booze. That is justified, the rest are not. Why punish them all? POlice know where the crime is - make these "super boozers" pay for policing outside of their establishments. Why should anyone who runs their bar properly (mega pub or wee local) be penalised for a problem they've not created?

If I drive safely my insurance costs are reduced. If I don't I'm penalised if I want to stay on the road - at least until I learn to drive properly and safely.

Rant over.

PS Wht were MSP's wasting their/our time yesterday by taking a bus trip across the Forth bridge and back.

Whyy???????????! I despair.



159

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:44:13
174
Firstly I did say we should try it and not show the arrogance of I KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.I suspect you are correct,but I do not know this .

You are offensive,and needlessly so,

I have admitted that I dont have a solution, and its on record for all to see.
I am aware that it could indeed result in a black market cross border trade That I agree is a useful contribution and worth pointing out.I Thank You for that.
The rest is your usual attack minded attitude which you can engage in behind a monitor,but in real life would soon earn a quite different response.

Totally unjustified.Please refrain from doing so.
Constructive comment I welcome.
160

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:44:17
ah i see loads of alkies have gone must have went for their carry oot.
161

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:45:37
#167:

Perhaps you should keep you daft holier than thou attitude to yourself.

I can handle my drink. I do not need nanny state laws or taxes.
162

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:46:49
191 alky..........


163

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 11:48:01
#161 They established the Nicholson Commission and put many of its independent recommendations into law, including aspects which were opposed by the opposition parties at the time. They published the Plan for Action on Alcohol Problems in 2002, which set out requirements for action by NHS boards, local authorities, police, the drinks industry, licensed trade and the voluntary sector. They also increased investment in treatment and prevention programmes by millions.

Saying they did nothing is not just a lie, it is an unnecessarily polarising argument. This needs to be a Scottish issue, not a political one. Politicians have been trying to tackle this for decades, and it is utterly unreasonable to write off their efforts.
164

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:48:09
i note none of them are answering the questions from the cage thing mario. most interesting all in denial about their alcohol problem obviously.
165

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:49:23
188
The SNP has no choice but deliver .Its an annual budget and if you think Annabelle Goldie has agreed to support this budget without receiving assurances then you are going to be disappointed.The SNP knows that concensus politics are the only way they can operate.Failure to do so will auto trigger withdrawal of support from the Conservatives and the Government would alomost certainly fall. Both parties will be only too well aware of this.
166

Gothic Rose,

12/02/2008 11:50:07
190#Went, naewhere,Hen.Gone for a cuppa.xxx
167

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:50:40
195 no it isnt unreasonable because what they did didnt work or we wouldnt have so many people dying and being diagnosed with alcohol related problems.

If this doesnt work duncan then you get to criticise. Until then stop being such a big jakey.
168

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:51:39
198 cuppa what? vodka?
169

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 11:52:26
195 Thank you Duncan

I could not agree more. We should try ,(and maybe even revisit) every possibility.We dont have an answer, and its surely a cross party issue which we MUST work together on or we have NO CHANCE
170

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 11:55:31
Another worrying trend amongst society's ills that I have noticed is that all criminal have a head.

Perhaps we could make sure the "polluter pays" - a new SNP tax for having a head. It is the lowest common denominater for crime. We could use the new head tax to pay for help for those who have trouble using theirs.
171

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 11:56:20
People are also using their arms and legs to commit crime. A new SNP arm and leg tax? "Polluter pays"
172

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 11:57:15
Ok, I have a head, arms and legs. But at least the SNP are thinking outside the box on this one.

Sure as hell beats detecting, catching and penalising crime.
173

karinxx,

12/02/2008 11:59:17
204 maybe they are having trouble because like you they are pished and their judgement is impaired.
174

Gothic Rose,

12/02/2008 12:00:56
204#:)))
175

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 12:01:04
193

Almost certainly it would have to be a cross border initiative ,I agree. These are the things we need to evaluate,and it may be that we know the answers in advance,and equally it may be ,that we think we do.The point (as many pointed out) is we have had numerous attempts at solving this,none of which have worked.Maybe the answer is try to work together,and that means ALL PARTIES and both countries.This is another attempt. Nobody claims its the one size fits all solution to everything. Its not.Thats the only thing we do know in certainty.
176

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:01:38
207 karinxx

Wrong! The beuty of the new SNP "head tax" is that people without heads don't buy booze or commit crime. "Polluter pays" genius.
177

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 12:02:26
Sadly Karen (are you on yet another login name?) we have to accept that there will always be people suffering and dying as a result of alcohol. If the yardstick by which you measure success is an end to all such cases then no-one will ever succeed.

I have some experience of the sticky end of this. I know of harm prevention projects where they celebrate a success if they manage simply to get a service user to engage with the project at all, never mind change their behaviour. I remember a young service user in Paisley who at 13 had developed not only alcoholism but a heroin dependency. He was living rough. Daily attempts even to talk to him had been unsuccessful for six months. When he finally walked through the door there were practically tears of relief, despite him still having all of his problems to overcome.

This is not an area where you will see overnight breakthroughs or simple answers. It's a hard slog. And I respect the work that has gone on thus far, because it has made some difference.
178

Karin M,

12/02/2008 12:02:36
#182 fakie karin: you Nat’s are a load of tartan tory snob’s! Just becoz alchie’s tend not to own there own home’s and to vote labour (when they’re not sleaping it off), you’ve got it in for us! Well, all us alchie’s are going to make sure we stay sobar for long enough to go down to the polling station’s and vote out the tartan tory’s at the next scottish election! U have been worned, Tartan Tory’s! Us alchie’s are going 2 make mincemeat of u (and wash it down with a few lager’s!)
179

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:05:13
210 I like your moniker what is it exactly that you have just uncorked Red or White?
180

Transparent?,

12/02/2008 12:05:52
Here are two other issues they should tackle:

1) British Telecom charge me £120/year for the privilege of being a customer - whether I make any calls or not. Daylight robbery!

2) The price of home energy has gone through the roof, no doubt to help pay for that stupid war in Iraq. And the man who pushed us into it, has walked away. Do I need to give you his name?
181

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:06:05
212 hi kimba :)
182

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:10:52
214 two possible solutions

1. buy a tesco internet phone. or switch supplier.

2. support the snp idea of micro renewables and put a wind turbine or solar panel on your house.

now would you like stand up and say im an alky or not?
183

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:13:08
mario this is fun annoy alkies day..........
184

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:15:04
makes a bleedin change from them annoying me. They always choose me to sit beside on the bus.
185

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 12:15:05
#217 Micro-renewables is an SNP idea? Really?
186

K McDonald,

glasgow 12/02/2008 12:16:17
>>>Here is a radical solution for unsociable crime. Get caught fighting, no legal aid not guilty please to last minute, pay a hefty fine. Get caught doing it 3 times jail.

Radical or what. >>


Not only radical but lays the blame squarely at the feet of the perpetrator. Not something that is comprehended by many of the authoritarian social engineers here on this board.

In Germany, for example, if you get drunk and cause trouble you not only face the jail but you have to pay ALL costs associated with your behaviour.
For example if you drink 8 pints then attack someone to the extent they are hospitalised the following happens: you pay for the police call out, the ambulance, treatment in hospital and the full costs incurred by the victim, such as wages while off work. You also face some time in jail to consider your actions.

Sadly all our goverment has to offer is a policy of collective punishment in the form of taxation.

187

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:16:52
220 duncan off topic ask me another day. this is the meeting of the scotsman alky declaration day.
188

Mcsnagpile,

12/02/2008 12:18:30
Why is the solution to put up the price of booze?? We already have the most expensive booze in Europe. Where are all the drunken teenagers in Europe not a twitter in the newspapers? A bottle of plonk or grappa at 50 Pence you would think could turn the head of all-susceptible plonkys. The problem is the cultural attitude that to get bluttered out of your mind and make an ass of yourself is somehow a good thing to do. Teenagers are only copying delinquent adults. They want to grow up and be able to vomit down the toilet properly, and be prepared for adult hood.

What would be more appropriate in the newspapers is reports on new venues to skill up our work force; new venues to get youth interested in more constructive pursuits. Changes for a new Scottish culture more appropriate for the 21st Century. Does nobody have any imagination??
189

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:20:08
221 so if someone does that and is married with six kids then the kids parent goes to jail therefore putting them in dire financial straights the state would presumably have to pay for the six kids.


radical yes?
190

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 12:22:06
#222 It's alright Karen, I know the answer is no. It may be part of the SNP's plans, which means that there may be another thing I can support, but it most certainly wasn't their idea.
191

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:22:22
223 I reckon you lot of alkies should stop moaning. putting up the price of fags has stopped loads of people smoking and its now bad culturally to smoke. Dont see what the difference is in changing the culture of drinkign and the culture of smoking it also used to be cool to smoke.
192

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:24:01
225 aye allright duncan but you know what i meant.

anyway save it for another day. Now back to alkies.
193

Miss H,

12/02/2008 12:26:36
221 A particularly daft idea reminiscent of Tony Blair's suggestion that drunken youths should be marched off to the nearest cashpoint and made to pay, what was it, £500 or something?

194

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:27:52
228 he is just counting the cost of the actual drink which is obviously all he thinks about. He isnt counting the cost we all pay towards hospital police etc bailing out kids of alkies putting them in care etc
195

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:29:08
right anymore alkies out there?
196

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:30:47
see before any more of you alkies comment could you at least be informed try here

http://www.alcohol-focus-scotland.org.uk/aboutalcohol/default.asp
197

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:31:17
229 MissH

Yeah, why charge the criminal when you can march 1,000 innicent and responsible an extra £0.50 each.

Soceity wins in two ways.

a) Don't need to pay a policeman to challenge crime. Reinforces criminal behaviour doesn't get penalised.

b) Taxes. Sweet, sweet taxes.
198

Steve,

Bo'ness 12/02/2008 12:31:39
Someone is trying to do something constructive, let them get on with it.
199

occasional,

12/02/2008 12:32:38
I'll have whatever karinxx is drinking.
200

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:33:29
234 ach steve yer wasting yer time they are all alkies and just want to drink themselves stupid.
201

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:34:00
229 Miss H

Why aren't you in power.

We could scrap the speeding fines and fine everyone a small amount extra for having a car. "Polluter pays".

We could scrap fines for litter and tax everything with packaging. "Polluter pays."

The beauty of your system is we can simplify the system whereby every citizen pays 90% tax and only the common criminal is better off.

Sweet, sweet taxes. Detecting and penalising crime is too hard, let's make everyone pay.

Sweet, sweet communism.
202

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:34:47
235 dont think you would like raspberry tea. no alcohol in it.
203

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:36:34
Did you know a lot of crime is football related.

Let's tax football tickets. "Polluter pays."

Did you know that gambling addicts commit crimes. Let's tax everyone extra with money. "Polluter pays"

Let's legalise and tax drugs "Polluter pays"

Let's give up chasing criminals "Criminal does not pay"
204

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:36:50
237 hmm are you avoiding taking about alkies and only talking about taxes cos you dont want to think about how much you drink.
205

occasional,

12/02/2008 12:37:33
#238 - Raspberry tea?

do you have muesli & yogurt to go alone with that?
206

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:38:06
239 "Criminal does not pay" what like wendy alexander who gets drunk and then makes a puddle in the middle f the high street that kind of polluter pays you mean?
207

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:38:48
241 no banana muffin. hmmm
208

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:39:17
242 karinxx

Exactly right. Political donations are not tax deductable therefore we've taxed all donations ergo no need to deal with the crime as it's been taxed.

Same difference, same idiotic policy.
209

Miss H,

12/02/2008 12:40:19
165 Excuses, excuses. It's all the police not doing their job right is it? Garbage. It's a society wide problem where we have totally lost a grip on our consumption of alcohol.

You are going to lose this argument because - and I really really hate to use this phrase - the silent majority have been waiting for this for some time.

Everybody who is sick of the drunkenness, sick of empty takewaay cartons and piles of vomit in the street the next morning, sick of twisted car mirrors if you're lucky, a smashed wibdow if you're not, sick of people pishing up their close, sick of the screaming and shouting and swearing at 3 o'clock in the morning. Yes let's have drunk tanks and wardens and everything else, let's get them off our streets because we are bloody sick of it. And let the drinkers pay for it.
210

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:42:45
245 totally agree. mainly cos smoking was my only bad habit and now i have to stand in the pissin rain so i figure its payback time. Alkies your gettin it. taxed that is.
211

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:44:53
244 so how much do you think wendy was fined for "puddling" under polluter pays? Was she fined?
212

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:45:46
244 or was that something else she got away with scot free?
213

occasional,

12/02/2008 12:46:35
#236 - thank God you don't drink - I can only imagine you after a couple of babychams.....
214

Mcsnagpile,

12/02/2008 12:47:53
The Scandinavians have the most expensive Booze in Europe They use credit cards to buy a round in the bar. You can only buy expensive beer in the super market at restricted times. You have to go to a special liquor store and queue like a criminal to buy whisky. Do not watch them on a Saturday but a Sunday morning plent of eyes hanging out of heads.Perhaps it is genetic all that Viking blood.
215

EK,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 12:48:13
Our society is crumbling away and we are still skirting round the main problem - we have an ill-mannered, uneducated, alcohol and drug dependent, violent section of our society, a situation that seems to be getting worse because no one dares to trample over so called human rights. The amount of money "urinated" away on alcohol in this country is disgusting! A charitable society???? Give me a break. The solution seems to lie with: Reducing or (heaven forbid!) banning the sale of alcohol for a while, having more police on the streets, more court time to fine and imprison people who make life hell for the rest of society, have massive campaigns to demonstrate "alcohol users are losers" (I like that motto). I'm sure money can be shifted around from useless social work departments who try to find excuses, or of course many other areas of government and council where money is wasted - after all governments don't bat an eyelid when sending people to war or closing down entire industries - so GOVERNMENTS, COUNCILS AND SOCIETY - GET ON WITH IT. There's not a lot of time left.
216

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:48:33
249 do tell?
217

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:48:41
245 Miss H

You are being silly again.

Littering and vandalism are already crimes. So it is obviously the police not doing their jobs.

Detect a crime, penalise a crime. Left foot, right foot.

Doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
218

occasional,

12/02/2008 12:49:57
#251 - great idea, let's ban alcohol.

Worked a treat in the USA fronm 1920 to 1933.
219

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 12:50:57
Miss H

The SNP are externailsing certain crimes from the criminal system.

We already have drunk tanks. They are called police cells. We have long-term drunk tanks too, called jails.

The SNP are using a stealth tax to externalise already criminal behaviour.

Being drunk and disorderly is a crime. Too much effort for the lazy police to go out and enforce this though, so the SNP's solution, decriminalise it and tax everyone. Pathetic.
220

occasional,

12/02/2008 12:51:12
#252 - why don't i take you out for a drink* and tell you all about it?



* raspberry tea, of course.
221

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:52:10
253 i see you have no response to the wendy alexander getting drunk and urinating in the street point.

ach i just think all alkies stick together to pass the bottle.
222

karinxx,

12/02/2008 12:53:55
256 thats very nice of you. i shall think about it. thank you.
223

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/02/2008 12:54:17
Charles Linskaill

Good morning! ANd for God's sake CALM DOWN or you will give yourself a coronary.

84 Gothic Rose

Good morning to you, madam. I agree that it is enough to send one to drink.

Think I will add an extra "wee drop or 20" of sherry to my tea or a healthy splash of cognac in my late-morning coffee.

It is -23 celsius here with windchill of -31 celsius and I need to warm up after walking my Labrador Chester for his morning romp.
224

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 12:55:37
#259 Drinking alcohol to warm up is a somewhat self-defeating activity, old chap.
225

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:01:46
261

You are rude, offensive and not contributing to the discussion. People in glass houses.

The problem with rude, offensive people is that when drunk the turn it up. Maybe if your appauling behaviour was challenged Scotlanmd wouldn't be filled with plebs such as yourself.

226

SS,

12/02/2008 13:02:43
Only 1pm and already 261 comments - quite a debate.

You booze, you loose. Taxes are not the answer, but I don't know what is.
227

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:04:05
262 neither are you you keep ignoring my wendy alexander comment.
228

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 13:04:17
All you lot who are supporting these rediculous proposals are a load of wusses who can't handle their drink.

Grow up and start behaving like real men for once in your life.
229

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:05:03
260 well said duncan.
230

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:05:15
215.Not me,think you'll find it's the guy with a chip on his shoulder,AKA SGURR!
231

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:05:46
267 alky.
232

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:05:57
264

a) Your location is irrelevant. So, you are the argumentative tube.
b) I have
c) The head tax was very witty. The reason is it's the same logic. All criminals do have heads, so let's tax those with heads. Only 8/10 are drink related so why tax drink?

Here is the safest logic. 10/10 crimes are committed by criminals, let's tax them. The SNP are clueless and I'd appreciate it if you disagree with me to tell me why rather than just be offensive.
233

bumpkin,

outer space 12/02/2008 13:06:22
Scotlands native people were cleared from their land 2 centuries ago and herded into city slums. They then turned to drink as most dispossessed peoples have donethroughout history, eg Irish, American Indians, Aboriginals etc.
The Lairds are the real culprits here.
234

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:07:27
If criminals couldn't eat they wouldn't be alive to commit crimes. Let's have a food tax everyone!

235

Sedov,

Scotland 12/02/2008 13:08:12
This is the policy of a government that has no idea of how to tackle alchohol abuse so embarks on its usual populist ideology. The nanny state is alive and well under the NATS. Until we tackle the underlying causes of drunkeness, gestures like this are futile - but the SNP do not have the policies to make society better because they are tied into the status quo.
236

Reiver,

Galashiels 12/02/2008 13:09:25
The British Government already taxes alcohol ... the problem with having more and more politicians is that they need more and more money - raised through taxing the public, to pay for themselves and their petty little promises (if they actually keep them !!!) ...
237

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:11:10
273 i think westminster are on that one take it up with them.
238

Reiver,

Galashiels 12/02/2008 13:11:12
#272 bumpkin ... your name should have told me that you're crazy comments were not worth the reading :) ...
239

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:12:46
jeezo we have more alkys than i thought.
240

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:17:32
278

I disagree with you. You're names are more aptly applied your type.

God only knows what you'd be like with a drink in you. Name calling when sober, shouting when drunk, you're personality type should be banned from drinking.

Social justice is about letting the poor enjoy the luxuries of a rich society. SNP solution only the rich can drink, the rich kids will still commit crime, the 19 year old with a job will still commit crime. The 40 year old cleaner will be deprived of a weekly treat that she cleaned up crap for all week.

SNP is against social justice, is against logic and stands for luxuries only for the rich. Fact.
241

Miss H,

12/02/2008 13:18:02
255 No we do not have drunk tanks. Police cells should be for people who have been arrested for committing an offence - they should not be used for storing drunk people who are too legless to get home.

In the same way prisons should be for people who have committed serious offences - they should not be used to store people with alcohol or drug problems.

That is just shelving the problem - not dealing with it.

What you are arguing is that the problem of drunkenness can be ascribed entirely to the actions of individuals. Your answer is simply to criminalise those individuals. Now, a part of me (perhaps the tartan tory part?) finds that idea quite appealing but it is actually rubbish.

We have a problem as a society with alcohol and that is the only way that we are going to solve it, as a society.

242

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:18:54
281 yes they do deserve it because they dont even know what an alky is mario. They dont even know if they are an alky cos they dont want to. They are not interested in solving alcohol problems mario. I bet not one of them has even bothered to find out how you become an alky. Fear probably because they might find out they actually are one and part of the problem.
243

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:19:09
SNP policy meeting.

We have crime.

Okay, let's tax drink - that way Janitors and cleaners won't be able to enjoy a weekly tipple.

Excellent, another problem solved.
244

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 12/02/2008 13:19:23
Good for the Scottish Govt for trying to do something about it.

I like Kenny MacAskill, he seems to be someone who WANTS to tackle the drinking culture instead of paying lip service to it which, let's face it, many off licences & supermarkets do.
245

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:20:41
283 Miss H

Wrong! Being drunk and disorderly is a crime. Urinating in public is a crime. Littering is a crime. Breach of the peace is a crime.

These criminals should be arrested. Janitors and cleaners should be allowed to enjoy a drink in peace.

The SNP wants only alcohol for the lawyer or bank manager. Some values.
246

Karin M,

12/02/2008 13:20:53
#215 Fakey Karin: just 2 set the record straight, my post’s do not emenate from 70 Norton Road in Stockton on Tees but from a internet café somewhere in Billericay, now lets raise a glass 2 Kenny the drunken hypocrite m.s.p.! The S.N.P.'s writ doesnt run here (unless they invade!) so who realy care's anyway) Im nearly out of credit, so i may just have to love u and leave u, fakie karin sweetie! xxx
247

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:21:29
alkies the lot of you that are arguing agaisnt it. Not one of you can come out and say this is what an alky is. cos none of you know. so how can you solve a problem you know nothing about.
248

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:21:58
280. MOVES IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION-you really are besotted with this primitive thinking executive, they haven't got a clue so let the supermarkets sort it out and they can pay us money while they try!
249

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:22:03
288 bye kimba.
250

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:22:58
290 ah yer getting better at that loggin in and out kimba.
251

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:23:14
SNP supporter logic.

Can we just target criminals for crime.

No.

Why not?

Because only taxing everyone works.

Why?

Your an a**hole, you're a tube.

The SNP are taking care of their own. Mostly made up of drunken thugs and common criminals, so they make everyone else pay.
252

TheSmith,

Kirkcaldy 12/02/2008 13:23:26
I'd better get stockpiling before the prices go up
253

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:24:44
288. you are one SICK individual!
254

Sanny,

Portugal 12/02/2008 13:27:38
24 Edward: & 25 Eugene john:
Given that we who live or spend time in areas where alcohol costs are low but recognize there are few alcohol problems would seem to suggest that altering the price of alcohol is not a solution. I would even go so far as to say it is not even a part of the solution. The problem is entirely one of culture.
Where I would disagree with Edward is on the shifting the responsibility of this problem on to the parents. We must remember that all authority was taken away from parents by a socialist do good government’s. if we want parents to be responsible that we must restore their authority.
27 Bob10:
This solution was tried in the past and brought about the license requirement but not an answer.
31 Fae Fife:
This was an over simplistic solution introduced with our usual knee jerk reaction. Those in power as simply not understood the basic problem. As you have said this is a social and cultural problem We need to understand the problem before we start inventing solutions. When we can answer the question, “why do our youth behave in this particular manner and abuse alcohol so badly”? Then and only then will we have the basis for a solution.
37 Uncorked,
This answer epitomizes the problem. Some people revel in being drunk. I would even say that any idiot can get drunk, but it would probably be more correct to say it is idiots who get drunk. I would suggest this person visits a hospital and sees the damage done by frequent abuse of alcohol and the miserable painful death that can ensue. I would also suggest that he and like minded others spend some time in countries such as France, Spain or Portugal love the consumption of alcohol is part of daily life and that it is not abused what is enjoyed.

The rest of the posts are on similar lines and I have no wish to repeat myself. We need to accept this is a cultural problem and whilst it is particularly prevalent in Scotland, we are not alone. Alcohol abuse seems to be common throughout the no
255

Karin M,

12/02/2008 13:28:40
#296 Kimba: I've not been drinking that much and im not a lezza find me at cafe at 147 High Street billericay would love 2 meet u karin sweetie!
256

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:29:14
293 they are not taxing everyone they are taxin the people that drink same as they taxed the people that smoked. Did you get shout about that as well.
257

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:29:37
297

Another insightful comment into your failings as a human being.

If you only have £20-40 a week for luxuries and the SNP take £5 extra in tax then it follows the poor will be deprived of crisps or chocolate or a cinema ticket... and so on.

SNP social justice in action. Tax the poor for the sake of it.
258

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:31:36
298 Sanny

Another daft response.

Alcohol is already highly taxed, as is tobacco. Any medical treatment from prolonged use is in theory paid for by the patient.

This SNP is to target the supermarkets loss-leaders. A favourite of the poor. SNP policy equates to snobbery and will not solve the crime problem. Only targetting criminals will do that.
259

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:31:46
so now the alkys would like the smokin ban reversed go for it i say im tired of getting shoved out in the rain.
260

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 13:31:58
>>>Scotlands native people were cleared from their land 2 centuries ago and herded into city slums. They then turned to drink as most dispossessed peoples have donethroughout history, eg Irish, American Indians, Aboriginals etc.
The Lairds are the real culprits here.>>>

You are unique in identifying the root cause as "the Lairds" of two centuries ago. Shouldnt we then be hunting down the Lairds decendents and demanding they pay reperations for force feeding us drink?

>>>This is the policy of a government that has no idea of how to tackle alchohol abuse so embarks on its usual populist ideology. The nanny state is alive and well under the NATS. Until we tackle the underlying causes of drunkeness.>>>


It is pathetic 2 dimensional thinking: identify a problem, hold everyone responsible then shake them down for more taxes.

I detect a strong whiff or puritanical authoritarian religious fundementalism from some of those who are in favour of this unworkable snp policy.



261

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:33:30
295. IF i had the answer i'd be very rich but i don't,but a starting point would surely be to try and give these kids something else to do,many i suspect drink out of bordom,we need affordable places for these kids to go without alcohol where they can have a good time without getting pished out of their skulls!
262

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:33:30
295. IF i had the answer i'd be very rich but i don't,but a starting point would surely be to try and give these kids something else to do,many i suspect drink out of bordom,we need affordable places for these kids to go without alcohol where they can have a good time without getting pished out of their skulls!
263

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:33:31
295. IF i had the answer i'd be very rich but i don't,but a starting point would surely be to try and give these kids something else to do,many i suspect drink out of bordom,we need affordable places for these kids to go without alcohol where they can have a good time without getting pished out of their skulls!
264

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:33:33
ban alcohol i say dont allow it to be drunk in public only in your own home.
265

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:34:17
305

Another SNP campaigner failing to think logically.

SNP policy is to tax loss leaders. Supermarkets will still run them because it gets the weekly shop in.

SNP policy meeting....

How do we cut alcohol consumption.

Force Tescos to put the price of beans up to preserve their alcohol loss leaders.

Excellent, another problem solved by us.
266

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:34:25
kimba that is probably the best comment i have ever heard from you.
267

Sanny,

Upwey 12/02/2008 13:34:31
298 continued

37 Uncorked,
This answer epitomizes the problem. Some people revel in being drunk. I would even say that any idiot can get drunk, but it would probably be more correct to say it is idiots who get drunk. I would suggest this person visits a hospital and sees the damage done by frequent abuse of alcohol and the miserable painful death that can ensue. I would also suggest that he and like minded others spend some time in countries such as France, Spain or Portugal the consumption of alcohol is part of daily life and that it is not abused what is enjoyed.

The rest of the posts are on similar lines and I have no wish to repeat myself. We need to accept this is a cultural problem and whilst it is particularly prevalent in Scotland, we are not alone. Alcohol abuse seems to be common throughout the northern European countries Norway, Finland, Holland and German etc.

Given the number of posts on this subject it would seem that the seriousness of the problem is recognized. We need our government to also take the problem seriously and seek a valid solutions not knee jerk reactions.

268

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:34:35
sorry, think the scotsman must like what i said.
269

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:35:50
so could someone tell me what the root causes of smoking are i missed that?
270

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:36:32
309. WOW,coming from you that is praise indeed!
271

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:36:36
i happen to smoke cos i like it. why should i be taxed and drinkers not pay they cost people more money in taxes than me.
272

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:37:53
i also pay an extortionate amount of money to smoke an have to stand in the pissing rain. i demand a smoking club. where i can get my nicotine hit. why should i be treated differently from drinkers.
273

Karin M,

12/02/2008 13:38:11
#311 fakie karin why do u keep blowing kiss's to me? give me 3 next time
274

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:38:14
312 Sanny

Most of the posts are people givign valid reason why this is stupid.

The other half are the SNP voters being rude, offensive, chatting about Wendy taking a leak in the streets.

You are being a silly sausage.

If crime is a problem, criminals are the root of the problem. Can I help you to understand that?

If someone does not commit crime after enjoying a cheap drink they are not the problem. So why target them?

World gone mad.
275

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:38:27
316 well it was true.
276

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:39:03
319 xxx
277

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:39:38
314. you asked for my opinion,i gave it,however, you seem a little unresponsive.
278

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:40:31
320 im not being rude she did it. she commited a crime while drunk you were talking about things criminals do while drunk saying punish them. im saying where is wendys punishment.
279

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:40:37
Our research sais we need more tax revenue to pay for our outlandish and stupid policies.

Damn, can we invent a silly reason for a new tax.

No, we'd look like Gordon Brown and labour.

Okay, how about taxing people enjoying a drink while watching saturday night tv? That would make us a bundle.

Sounds good, can we invent a reason for it?

Not a good one.

Well try, we need to convince the people a head tax is good news.
280

Sanny,

Portugal 12/02/2008 13:40:48
302 Uncorked
Try to sober up and read what I actually said. I think I made it clear tax was not a solution. My comments on the health problems was not related to cost in terms of cash but rather in the quality of life. It is not only the drunk who has to suffer the pain of a dying from a damaged liver, but also the family.
281

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:42:56
so after 327 comments we have come to the idea that no one has a clue and everyone apart from a select few are alkys. why not just let the governmetn get on with the job see if it makes a difference and then if it doesnt. then moan.
282

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:44:09
329 Sanny

You are being silly again.

Watching a family member die from cancer is hard too. There are carcinigens in crisps, the air on forecourts and everywhere.

A few drinks is no big deal. So why tax them? The only reason is the SNP are stupid beaurocrats who need to create new taxes to pay for a daft independence campaign no-one will respond to.
283

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:45:32
328 the only reason i can see for you arguing agaisnt this is either

a. your totally agaisnt the snp and even if it was the best thing since sliced bread you would argue agaisnt it.

b your an alky.

which is it.

seeing as you have completely refused to answer any of my points and in fact havent been able to.
284

Uncorked,

12/02/2008 13:46:05
New forecourt air tax.

OUr research sais people on forecourts are breathing and dieing of cancer.

What do you mean nanny state? Forget it - there will be no death in the UK from 2010 onwards.
285

Karin M,

12/02/2008 13:46:26
#327 fakie: wendys no lady if she did that sweetie
286

karinxx,

12/02/2008 13:47:17
anyway uncorked you snp hating alky im off. myabe one day you will be able to answer my questions after rehab perhaps come indpendence.
287

Duncan in Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 13:47:58
#330 read #195.

As for poverty, you are beyond disingenuous. In 1997 Labour committed to eradicating child poverty in this country, and has already reduced it to less than half of the level when they came to power.

That you blame Labour for Scots problems with drink suggests that you have no interest in solving the problem at all, you just want to score political points. Stop it. You're not helping.
288

Miss H,

12/02/2008 13:52:12
Hmm. Methinks Uncorked is a Labour Party researcher testing out lines.

Under the SNP janitors and cleaners will be penalised for liking a couple of cans of beer on a Friday night while rich lawyers and doctors can continue to quaff champagne from jewel-encusted golden buckets to their heart's content.

SNP - right wing fascists. Labour - friend of the poor, the vulnerable, the weak, the dispossessed, janitors and cleaners ....
289

The new improved SNP head tax © Now 10% better!,

12/02/2008 13:52:55
Happen to agree with uncorked. This is worse than Brown and Labour. Taxing people for enjoying a drink on their own sofas on a Saturday evening when the kids have gone to bed. Scandal.

Duncan from Edinburgh. Labour are bad at this too. Two wrongs do not make a right. Get the anti-social SNP and Labour numbnuts out.
290

Sanny,

Portugal. 12/02/2008 13:53:26
320 Uncorked

“Most of the posts are people givign valid reason why this is stupid.” And this refers to?

Do your think you could take the time to construct a coherent and sensible contribution, or is your brain already so damaged by alcohol abuse that it no longer functions properly.

Take a tip Uncorked, go on a long holiday in one of the southern European countries, keeping well away from the tourist areas. Then you’ll see how people can enjoy alcohol without abusing it.
291

Duncan in Edinburgh,

12/02/2008 13:55:38
#339 Who is good at it then? You? Do you have the magic wand to make our alcohol problems go away?
292

K McDonald,

12/02/2008 13:56:05
>>>>The only thing that will allow Scotland to progress and prosper is independence. This is so obvious that it is quite incredible an intelligent person like yourself can't see it.>>>


I cant see how independence will solve this particular problem. The nats have executive power to do something about this right now and all the nats have to offer is collective fiscal punishment to the innocent and excuses for the guilty. Not a good sign of things to come.






293

kimba,

12/02/2008 13:57:35
330. But jackie in all honesty,you are going to have to wait a long time for that,Independence is NOT on westminsters agenda!
294

ayeaye,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 13:59:50
i reckon what they need to do is limit the alcohol buying opportunity.

have dedicated off licenses: staff can rigourously check ID of people buying booze and refuse drunk customers (the way bars can)

and separate sections in supermarkets which sell booze: separate tills where the staff have time to ID and refuse sale if appropriate


take away all the additional licenses: there is no need for "corner shops" to sell alcohol: i totally maintain this is the place kids are buying booze, largely from people whose religion forbids its consumption, but are all too happy to sell it to white kids for profit

295

The new improved SNP head tax © Now 10% better!,

12/02/2008 14:03:41
Duncan from Edinburgh

It is already illegal in the United Kingdom to be drunk on licensed premises.

It is already illegal in the United Kingdom to be drunk and disorderly in a public place.

What magic wand? The solution is obvious. Tell premises licensed to serve alcohol a blind eye will not turned to people serving drunks.

Tell the police to stop turning a blind eye to those drunk and disorderly on our streets. They only do it to keep the numbers down.

The SNP are a joke. Taxing supermarkets for allowing people for enjoying a drink in their own homes once a week. What a crock!
296

The new improved SNP head tax © Now 10% better!,

12/02/2008 14:06:15
346 Me*

*They only turn a blind eye to keep official numbers of recorded crime down.

(Just in case there is any confusion of what I meant.)
297

occasional,

12/02/2008 14:10:34
why don't we just make booze cheap - 10p a bottle of vodka, say. Close the A&E from Thursday night till Sunday night as well.

Darwinism would soon take it's course.
298

kimba,

12/02/2008 14:13:39
344. PLEASE, kids will always find a way and some adults are not above breaking the law;we need to occupy these kids so they have no need to turn to alcohol for their kicks.
299

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 14:20:53
219

Clearly their diminished reponsibilty does not affect their good taste .
300

The Master,

12/02/2008 14:22:06
I just knew it! I always wondered how long it would be before the Nats tried to ban fun! As someone who is only too fond of a drink myself, this comes as no surprise! In all honesty, the only SNP policy that I have ever agreed with is their anti tram stance in Edinburgh (but that is way off topic, and the ruddy things were forced through anyway!)

I myself once found myself in the A & E ward of the old Edinburgh Infirmary building after a night out, and know that I’d have had a thing or three to say about the Nutty Nats if I’d wound up in a “drunk tank”! Kenny says:"We have a serious problem in Scotland”. Well, I think the “serious problem” only materialised at the last Scottish Election and, as I know that Kenny is known to enjoy a drink himself, can only put the proposed measures down to the usual SNP hypocrisy. So, he wants to tackle drinking culture, does he? Well, why doesn’t he first tackle his own culture? Why should we listen to what a soccer yob has to say about anything?

As I’ve been making a determined effort to “go upmarket” by improving the quality of my posts recently (honest gov!), may I put forward my own constructive solution to the drinking crisis? In one word, it’s education. The Nats should be seeking to change the public’s attitude to alcohol, rather than this ill thought out scatter gun approach which can only have all sorts of unintended consequences for drinks retailers.
301

Sam,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 14:24:41
It's twelve and a tanner a bottle
That's what it's costin' today
Twelve and a tanner a bottle
Man it tak's a' your pleasure away
Afore ye can hae a wee drappie
You have to spend a' that you've got
How can a fella be happy
When happiness costs such a lot

It's really high time something is done
To alter the way the country is run
They're no daein' things the way that they should
Just take for instance the price of the food

There's taxes on this, taxes on that
While the people grow lean, the officials grow fat
You have to admit it's a bit underhand
Puttin' a tax on the breath of the land

I used to meet old pals o' mine
When whisky was cheap, went doon like wine
Noo I don't see them I'm sorry to tell
I slip roon' the corner and drink by masel'

302

ayeaye,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 14:25:58
349 kimba

i totally agree... but i still do not see why it is that alcohol is quite so freely available when its such a potent drug.

and dont get me wrong, i love a drink and do enjoy the convenience of it being for sale in my local shop, but i'd happily trade that to reduce incidences of alcohol fuelled violence, crime and underage drinking.


303

Sgurr,

12/02/2008 14:26:03
The real problem isn't kids drinking, its how it rots their brains...leaving them to grow up to become mentalist racists with severe personality problems..a major issue in some northern towns.
304

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 14:37:18
301

How the SNP tax on alcohol would reduce your chocolates, cinema ticket and crisps Im still trying to work out.Do you mean you will carry on drinking and your family will get housekeeping money to accomodate you? I hope not.
305

morris,

edinburgh 12/02/2008 14:39:12
352 Sir Harry Lauder first snag that if Im not mistaken. Long time since I heard that.
306

Queen D,

Glasgow 12/02/2008 14:48:16
356 and counting, is this indicative of the interst, or is this indicative of the lack of comments allowed on more interesting issues, or is this indicative of these boards being flooded by staff to make it look good, or is this indicative of the numbers of drinkers in Scotland?
Personally, I would NOT allow greedy supermarkets to sell booze, the buy one get one free is a bad idea.
Let the 'Offie' sell booze, they know that they'll lose their livelihood if they sell to the underage.
307

Kattrix,

Chicago 12/02/2008 14:51:45
No 19, Sanny, Portugal is correct. It's a (sad) cultural thing. As a teenager in Scotland I remember getting smashed being the normal thing to do at weekends. Never occurred to me there was anything "wrong" with it. While there are plenty of other things wrong with the US culture, underage drinking is not one of them. Liquor stores and bars are so terrified of losing their licences some of them check everyone's age--eg, my pal and I weren't allowed past the bar door on Super Tuesday until we produced our ID, and we're both the wrong side of 50! While I believe threat of license loss would be a far greater deterrent to selling alcohol to Scottish minors that a levy, the root problem is not the vendor of the booze; the root problem is a culture that encourages drinking as a macho or cool form of recreation. Changing the drink culture is the challenge the pols need to face up to.
308

,

12/02/2008 14:58:03
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309

kimba,

12/02/2008 14:59:04
354. unless you can join in this debate without having side swipes at me or my country,I SUGGEST YOU GO AND PLAY ON THE M8 motorway.
310

Speckled Hen,

12/02/2008 15:02:37
#351 The Master: I just have to ask this (although no doubt I’ll live to regret it): how did you end up in the A & E ward then? Was it because you made the mistake of opening your mouth on your night out? Did you say the wrong thing to a passing Dalek or something?
311

kimba,

12/02/2008 15:03:11
353. It's a simple case of what's convenient for us adults,we forget that kids are doing what we do,but have not got the maturity or will power to know when to stop.
312

kimba,

12/02/2008 15:04:22
359. Don't worry that is a long time off.
313

Sgurr,

12/02/2008 15:04:50
*For example, see 360.

Case Closed.
314

Pelon,

Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA 12/02/2008 15:09:57
#358 - Exactly. WE must choose to change. Solutions aren't obtained any other way. When in a public setting, KNOW how to spot people who have consumed so much alcohol that they can become a menace to the public, and themselves. Present choices for expression of this culture that include LOSS of business revenue earned by preying on the culture. We shut down the drive-ups... we remind people all the time that AGE doesn't give license for irresponsible behavior... we've trained our alcohol servers to spot problems... we've kept attention on the problem. We're not yet successful and never will be at erradicating alcohol abuse, but we've lessened it.
There still is abuse in bars. I sat for a few hours one evening drinking with an old friend. We get together every couple years. My server, at a tremendously busy establishment, had the uncanny ability to deliver a shot of single malt whisky exactly when I was ready to drink it. I drank about eight shots that evening and I felt warm, probably warmer trhan I knew. She should not have done that, as it was for the significant tip I left her she was after, and not MY sincere requests for more whisky, that I didn't make, but she did, and I didn't up and leave. She was pretty, and the Whisky was wonderful! I made it home the twenty miles, sweating a police stop the whole way. How many others did as well that night? I shudder thinking how close I came to ruining my life.
315

Sgurr,

12/02/2008 15:10:37
shes so stupid, she sends faxes with stamps on..
316

The Master,

12/02/2008 15:18:07
# Speckled Hen: are you related to Hen Broon (a frequent winner of the Dark Side’s much coveted Nutty Nat of the Month Award)? If you must know, I had an unfortunate encounter with a double decker bus but escaped with four or five stitches to my mouth. Btw, I’m struggling to remember which other political organisation once sought to ban fun. Can anyone enlighten me? Maybe all the drink over the years has addled my faculties!

PS this thread is some kind of a record? If I’m right (on a quick inspection), no post has been removed to date! This is particularly unusual in that all the usual stirrers (such as my good self, Karin M, my friend Kimba and the Ayrshires) have been around! Here’s hoping some moderator doesn’t decide to do for this post just for the hell of it!

#367 Spook: I do largely agree with you for once. I live in Murrayfield when I'm in Edinburgh, btw! How dare you imply that I'm only a Morningsider, you down at heal Nat voting Leither!
317

,

12/02/2008 15:42:24
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318

megz,

glasgow 12/02/2008 15:55:03
http://tinyurl.com/24ms3x they should turn this into a tv series. Dunno who created this but it is quite amusing
319

NovaScotia™,

12/02/2008 15:55:14
#370 Ayrshire Scot: I’ve got a good idea, why don’t we have a raffle to pay for our referendum? First prize, a night on the town with kenny!
320

,

12/02/2008 15:58:07
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321

,

12/02/2008 16:01:54
Comment Removed By Administrator
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322

The Master,

12/02/2008 16:07:04
I wouldn’t say ive got a drink problem, but I have to get into the mood before I come on here and drinks the best way! Im not really that crazy, it’s just the drink speaking!
323

,

12/02/2008 16:13:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
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324

The Answer,

Glasgow 12/02/2008 16:13:28
How many billions of tax is raised from the sale of booze?

How will the fat one balance his budget without the ever increasing sale of booze?
325

Disputer,

12/02/2008 16:23:03
First they banned smoking in pubs. Pubs opened beer gardens and installed patio heaters. Now they want to ban patio heaters because of "climate change."

Now it's the turn for drinkers to be ostracised.

If all smokers stopped, income tax would have to be raised by 5p in the pound. If we all stopped drinking (aye right), tax would have to go up another 5p.

It wouldn't matter though because although we would all have less disposable income, there's not much left to spend it on.
326

Canning,

12/02/2008 16:23:32
pushing up the price of alcohol is not the answer. A better solution would be to extend the drinking and sales hours and to put an outright ban on the advertisement of alcohol products.

It is a system that is effective in France and Italy.
327

Disputer,

12/02/2008 16:24:03
...apart from sweeties. Thank goodness that blue smarties are now off the "banned" list.
328

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/02/2008 16:25:03
Not a very well thought out scheme. Punishing everyone for the behaviour of an irresponsible few is never good policy. Perhaps a better approach would be to raise the drinking age as well as make it a criminal offence to provide alcohol to minors. Rather than "Polluter Pay" how about the "Polluted Pay" charge drunks who need to taken to a hospital or drunk tank a fee that will be added to their council tax bill. There is no evidence that making alchol more expensive will deter those who want to drink irresponsibly. Scotch Whiskey is far to expensive already. When traveling overseas I never buy Scotch at the Duty Free in Glasgow Airport. I can get it for half the price when I arrive back in Jakarta, a country that is 90% muslim.
329

Disputer,

12/02/2008 16:25:05
I'm not as dunk as preep thinkle I am.
330

Disputer,

12/02/2008 16:27:16
It's like banning cars because SOME motorists cause accidents.

...or banning air travel because some planes crash.

..or banning all politicians because some accept dodgy donations.

331

Disputer,

12/02/2008 16:28:29
...or banning anyone from keeping a pet because some owners are irresponsible.

..or banning food because some people are gluttons.
332

,

12/02/2008 16:32:42
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333

Canning,

12/02/2008 16:33:29
The Drunk Tank!

Sound like military reforms from Charles Kennedy
334

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 16:39:26
The servant: "Why do I have to clean your shoes master? They will be just as dirty tomorrow."

The Master: "Why should I feed you? You will be just as hungry tomorrow."

The SNP drone: "Why do we have to bother catching criminals? The country will be just as crime ridden tomorrow"

Alex Salmond: "I agree. Let's just tax the innocent responsible people, boz to the crims. Wheeeeee, I'm king, I'm king."
335

Disputer,

12/02/2008 16:42:14
387

Why should we read your posts today? They'll just be repeated tomorrow.
336

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 16:42:30
Scotland has been crippled by Labour tax and waste policy.

Glad the SNP are putting a stop to it. They are going to tax the overtaxed to cut down on taxation.


"The SNP. Making you pay the bill for others crimes, every time."
337

,

12/02/2008 16:43:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
338

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 16:45:22
I'm just going to urinate on the steet whenever I feel like it after they introduce the tax. I'll be paying for the right after that.

But alas, as things stand today it's illegal.
339

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 16:46:12
"The SNP. Making sure every Scottish street is a toilet since 2008."
340

kimba,

12/02/2008 16:47:05
370.Sorry Macca's skint and simon cowell is out of town!
341

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 16:47:31
The drunk tank. Is that the missing link between a B&B and a prinson Cell?

"The SNP. Giving wino's bed and breakfast on you and me since 2008."
342

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 16:50:44
396 The Dark Side

Nonsense, I wouldn't wipe me erse with it.

"The SNP. Decriminalising being drunk and disorderly, another winning policy delivered."
343

Eve,

Scotland 12/02/2008 16:54:44
#393 ASBO: What are you on??

Teperlady might help with yer wee problem!!!

344

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 16:58:03
#284:

karinxx,

"...they do deserve it because they dont even know what an alky is..."

What? You mean in the same way that you don't know what an "alky" is?

And the correct phrase is "alcoholic" not "alky".

So far in this thread, you have called someone an "alky" or referred to a collective group as "alkys" a total of ELEVEN TIMES.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that you have ever met the people who you elect to insult with such gay abandon. That being the case, how would you know whether any of these people have drink problems or not? You wouldn't.

My advice to you is to refrain from insulting people, because you loose the argument by default when you do so.

My arguement against increasing tax on alcohol is two-fold:
1. The law-abiding majority should not have to suffer because of the idiotic minority.
2. Laws already exist to deal with those who get drunk and cause problems. these laws should be enforced rather than creating new ones that will only affect the law-abiding majority.

Either counter those arguments intelligently or go away.
345

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 16:59:29
As a responsible adult who likes a wee drink, I take exception to some MSP or other politician taxing me any further.

I do however strongly agree that something must be done to halt the decline in social standards due to drink. What needs to be worked out is a means of restricting the flow of booze to those who cannot handle it or behave properly.

I think drunk tanks with all night courts penalising these losers heavily by e.g. fines or public service clearing up the mess we are surrounded with.

Hit them where it hurts? That wouldn't be politically correct.
346

Sgurr,

12/02/2008 16:59:41
I think that should be "rhetoric"...but, anyway, I'm not sure if you know what it means. It's certainly not in context.
347

Sgurr,

12/02/2008 17:00:09
Don't they have a dictionary at 70 Norton Road?
348

Nikostratos,

12/02/2008 17:01:51
Disputer


I am looking for some people to help transport cheap English (non snp taxed booze) across the border to Scotland Once the snp booze tax is imposed.

As you can see the potential profit will be substantial for those willing to take a chance all you need is a van.
selling the booze is the easy part it will be like 'Whisky Galore' everybody will be happy apart from all the scots licensing trade etc and their redundant ex employees.........Still market forces and all that.......you can make a mint believe me i done it before.......it'll be duty free days all over again
349

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 17:07:25
#400:

I tend to agree with you.

Something does need to be done about the decline of social standards. The thing is, the laws are already in place to deal with this problem.

It is against the law to serve someone alcohol who is clearly already drunk.
It is against the law to start fights or threaten people (breach of the peace).
It is against the law to damage property (criminal damage).
It is against the law to be excessively loud (breach of the peace).
It is against the law to expose yourself in public.
It is against the law to urinate in public.
It is against the law to be sick all over the pavement.
It is against the law to throw litter and half-eaten chippies around.

If there is anything I have missed then please point it out. In the meantime, it is apparent that any problems being experienced are not down to drink, they are down to the EXISTING laws not being enforced.

We do not need any more laws.
350

Miss H,

12/02/2008 17:11:41
400 Drunk tanks, community service orders - these are exactly the kinds of solutions the SNP is proposing.

But guess what - someone has to pay for that.

You can pay for it either through a) an increase in income tax, b) cutting other services or c) a levy on alcohol producers.

I know what option I favour.

After all I can choose how much I drink. I don't get to choose how much tax I pay.
351

Miss H,

12/02/2008 17:12:19
Sorry that should be alcohol retailers - alcohol producers are of course already prettily heavily taxed.
352

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:12:37
404 Fuel Head

You missed the following... and these are who the SNP are trying to TAX:

1) Those sitting peacefully enjoying a beer watching the telly after a hard day's work.
2) Those having a barbeque with friends
3) Those sharing a bottle of wine with a home-cooked meal for two.

These three groups of people make Alex Salmond and the SNP angry - how dare they!!

"The SNP. Taxing those enjoying peacefully since 2008, policy delivered."
353

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:15:10
405 Miss H

Is that you being silly again? I think it is.

How do we pay for speeding cameras and speeding cops? Answer, by fining those who speed. Turns out the government can turn a profit from it.

Guess what's coming next? You guessed it my love. Why not fine the lager louts to pay for community wardens to catch the louts. When we turn a profit from that too, plough it into rehab for the terminally stupid.

"The SNP. Making the middle class pay for the crimes of others. Another winning policy delivered."
354

kimba,

12/02/2008 17:19:01
401/2.I sincerly hope that your consumption of your favourite tipple is not rotting your brain,but there again think it's to late!
355

Miss H,

12/02/2008 17:22:28
408 So we are back to the old Tony Blair argument - march them off to the nearest cashline and fine them £500 or whatever it was. An idea which attracted universal ridicule for its utter stupidity.
356

Douglas Eckhart,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 17:22:32
This is the right approach. It is about time that society started taking some responsibility for the drink culture. The money we all pay will be channeled to tackle the aftermath of drink fueled destruction.. . good idea.

And for those who object 'paying for a few drunken louts', they are not just 'a few', but a lot - our town centres are becoming no-go areas at night - this has got to stop,
and you are ALREADY paying for it. Do you know how many millions are wasted through the NHS in treating these morons? not counting clean-up charges, repairs to property etc, all generated by idiots who can not handle their drink - that adds up to MILLIONS of pounds of YOUR money.

We ALREADY Pay... I should also add that many people have already paid with their lives.
357

kimba,

12/02/2008 17:24:27
407. you are what the "snp" would call a "pain in the butt" carry on.
358

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 17:25:12
405 Miss H

It will be self funding and I would expect a profit to be made to be used to further deal with the problem. There would also be the added benefit to society of a number of public services being carried out free of a labour charge. Just think of the amount of rubbish, dog crap, broken glass, graffiti chewing gum etc that could be cleared by these drunks paying their debt to society. Its worth a try.

Personally I would birch persistent offenders but the wooly liberals in political/media power would not allow that.
359

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:27:32
410 Miss H

Is that you making things up again? I think it is.

By all means argue my ideas are stupid. But to put words in my mouth, well that's not on.

£500 fine!? Where on earth did you pull that out from... hmmm best not answer for fear of offending the moderator.

How about administering it like a parking ticket, or a speedin fine? Establish the persons ID, record it, hand it back to a back office admin type, have them send a letter out in the post. 2 options - plead guilty by letter, no fuss, pay the fine. Option 2 defend yourself in court, no more mr nice if you fail.

I think we should treat scumbags the same way we treat the middle classes. That sounds fair to me. No more free lawyers costing us £40k a year.

If they don't have the cash for the fine. Then we still treat them like the middle class student. Loan them the money and take it back with interest.

Fair is fair Miss H.

Your tax me for another's crime is getting a little tiring.
360

Publius,

London 12/02/2008 17:27:55
Started work at 7.00 am this morning. Just got back to my flat and read this bad news. I'm due to be posted back to head office in Edinburgh soon. Good job I've got a bottle of Lagavullin in. I need it to calm down.
Couple of points. (a) In pubs and clubs why not adopt the continental method of service? Service to table only. Payment when you leave. (b) In supermarkkets why not confine all the drink to one area with its own checkout?

361

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 17:30:26
408 Anti SNP Eejit

While I disagree with the policy at least the SNP are floating ideas as they recognise the problem.

50 years of Labour mismanagement of Scotland and never a cheep. Maybe they wanted us all pi**ed and unable to see what was going on in our country.

This problem is not party political. It is real, damaging and destructive to our way of life with no sign of improvement on the horizon. It must be dealt with
362

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:30:36
Niko. I don't like this policy one little bit. Apparently Broon down south is ALSO looking at changing the alcohol laws.
363

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:30:53
413

Great Idea. Could we call this force me new tax is creating "The police force"? That has a catchy ring to it.

Get with the programme mr. This is not about tackling crime, we are taxed and pay for that already. This is about decriminalising something which is already a crime to reduce the numbers.

Gogs Broon, he taught the SNP so much. Tax AND fiddling the number in one brush stroke of the pen. Classic.
364

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:31:56
404 (ex petrol head?)

Agreed. Use existing laws. Don't bring in crappy new ones.
365

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:32:56
416

Don't be rude. We are both against the policy. Why assume I am an eejit for agreeing with you. Call yourself an apologist for this nonsense if you want, but I am no eejit.

"The SNP. Bullying those who disagree, another winning policy delivered."
366

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 17:33:36
415 Publius

We all know who is selling the bulk of cheap booze, e.g. Buckfast, cheap cider etc to our youth and its not Asda, Tesco etc. The little local shops who will sell booze and fags to anyone with cash must be controlled with those who sell it hammered.
367

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:34:00
Braesbear

"Personally I would birch persistent offenders but the wooly liberals in political/media power would not allow that."

How about Sharia law?
368

Miss H,

12/02/2008 17:34:08
414 OK you want to fine every lager lout - how much?

And you are going to do this by creating a bureacracy which operates on the same basis as the issuing of parking fines.

And how much do you estimate that is going to cost?

For a start you need to define a lager lout. If you mean someone drunk on lager acting in a loutish way then your wee scheme would cost hundreds of millions of pounds, given the number of drunk and loutish people on the streets on the average Friday night!

So your idea is actually stupider than Tony Blair's and would cost way more than what the SNP is proposing.

How do you propose to fund it?
369

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:36:00
The price of whisky in Saudi is now 40 lashes per bottle.
370

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 17:37:38
420 Whatever you want to call youself

Your patent disregard for the SNP has no place in debate on such an important subject. This is a big issue way above party lines so put your petulant and election defeated red flag away and deal with the problem in hand.

In fact you may even be one of those wooly lib dems.
371

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:37:40
423 Miss H

Sadly your defeatism is all to reminiscent of many an SNP voter.

Just because a problem is big, does not mean should run away from it.

Here is my idea...

Detect, report and charge criminals. When you do make them pay for the costs involved.

What do you think? Sounds like a winner to me.

Here is your idea.

Ignore, ignore and charge the citizen. Sounds like something that may cause me concern when I come to cast my vote.
372

mcbogtrotter,

calif 12/02/2008 17:39:01
Well this amounts to more comments that Ive seen on a subject on this site. And as usual most of your comments are wrong appearently Scotland has some real sociatal issues, you might start there to see why this sort of behavior is so acceptable to many of the citizens. But as usual the fix is to screw everybody because you cant solve the problem of a few that seems to be the way of it nowadays the Corporate letter

To whom it may concern:

All you people screwing up please stop.

Best Regards
The Management

get real it does not work
373

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:39:27
Increasing the price isn't the answer. It could encourage more thefts from liquor stores. If goods are too expensive and there's a ready market, then it makes it worthwhile for crooks to steal the goods.

There isn't a great demand for broccoli, so you won't find street hustlers flogging it cut-price at the Barras.

Cigarettes are taxed heavily, so buy them at the Barras for half the price. It's mad.
374

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:42:14
Brew your own.
375

Nikostratos,

12/02/2008 17:43:43
#424 disputer

i always need a lash after a drink..........

with money making scams......like the booze trips being made......Independence could be a good move for those prepared to bend the law...........
376

Miss H,

12/02/2008 17:44:36
426 Seriously.

How many people would be required to administer such a scheme? How many additional police officers would be required - because community wardens do not have the powers to act as you suggest.

How much additional court space would be required to process the people who did not pay the fines? What would happen to those who did not pay the fines and were then found guilty? How many of them would be sentenced to community service and how much would that cost?

What level would you have to set the fine at to make this scheme self-funding?
377

The SNP patented & populist tax on having a head ®,

12/02/2008 17:49:06
432 Miss H

Your defeatism is astounding.

The speedin ticket, parking ticket system works. Most plead guilty straight away. Those who don't get screwed Inland Revenue style, with interest and non-payment penalties.

All you do is argue we should protect the lout. By not even trying. Defeatism in the extreme, and that is in very bad taste, very poor indeed.

We have all seen the documentaries or passed the police ignoring drunkeness.

Make the serial offender your top priority and work down the list. Easy peasy.
378

Publius,

London 12/02/2008 17:50:07
#421 Braesbear
Could be you're right about smaller shops and off-licences. Answer then is quite easy. Automatic loss of drinks licence for selling to under-age people.

But I'd still like to see my changes (in #415) to pubs, clubs and supermarkets. People talk glibly of continential cafe culture. So, make service and payment continental-style too.
379

Miss H,

12/02/2008 17:53:00
432 - You have not answered any of my questions. You haven't actually thought about it, have you?
380

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:53:36
Maybe the "stoolies" who like to shop the smokers in bars could help out with the drunks. Aye right.

Society is to blame. Our Scottish culture where you can only have a good night out if it involves throwing up and peeing in some old dear's rose bush.

Education is the answer, but it may be too late.
381

Splashie,

12/02/2008 17:56:39
430 Niko says "Independence could be a good move for those prepared to bend the law..........."

makes you wonder why Labour are so against it then. Never mind bend it, they have admitted to recently breaking it 120 times and have left the law bleeding on the ropes.
382

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 17:56:50
429 Disputer

Thats what they do in Norway where the government control the breweries and the cost of a pint is astronomical. I have never seen so many drunks in my life apart from Glasgow Royal Infirmary A&E at 4.00pm on a Tuesday afternoon.

Flog em!
383

Disputer,

12/02/2008 17:57:39
A football match in Scotland is won. The chant goes up "We're gonnae Cel-e-brate We're gonnae Cel-e-brate We're gonnae Cel- we're gonnae cel-e brate."

...which means we're going to get wrecked.
384

Disputer,

12/02/2008 18:01:29
The courts may be awash with drunken louts, but if the EXISTING laws were enforced, some folk might think twice before vandalising my car - AGAIN!

If the penalty for urinating in the street (for example) was a fine of a couple of hundred quid, people may be less inclined to relieve oneself behind the shopping precinct. I know it would make ME think twice.

Some people of course are let off with a warning.
385

Eve,

Scotland 12/02/2008 18:02:20
It's well knowen fact about home consumption of Alcohol is that the home messurement are more genusios to where outside in a pub you might get 1-2 units the home mesurement contains between 3&6 units of alchol, unless you use a mesure BUT most people don't at home.

Also a lot of people who hang around the streets drunk are people who have been drinking on the street (though in some areas it's ilegal, it doesn't stop everyone doing it, though). Causeing a large percentage of the anti-social.

Where as places like pubs can turn away people who are to drunk, or refuse to sell them more alcholic drinks a home bar doesn't have anyone there to to that.

Though personaly I think that supermarkets should be banned from selling alchol or alchol above a certain volume may be 12 or 10. With only off-licences being able to sell the stronger drinks.
386

Disputer,

12/02/2008 18:03:08
I'm more annoyed with a daily average of 60 spam emails. I'd castrate the so-and sos. Likewise the hackers.
387

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 18:06:29
433 Publius

No offence my friend but can you see that catching on in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, etc.

With the Commonwealth Games and Olympics coming up our chances would improve with the number of runners the country would produce.

Birch their ar*es.
388

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 18:07:41
440 Eve

Lay off the big measures.
389

beckypumps1,

Fife 12/02/2008 18:08:00
The current drinking culture can not be solved by tax or short term punishment it goes far deeper and is a general lack of respect between people it seems to be the me me me generation.
I’m all for human rights but the liberal pendulum seems to have swung to far. When I was at secondary school in the eighties the belt/tash was banned and it seems to me that things have gone pear shaped since, mix in single parent families with no male role model and the everyone’s a victim mentality and you have a chaotic recipe for social decline within our society.
I do accept that some people in prison are victims but not all. Also I might add that I am from a single parent family so I am well aware of the hurdles my single parents face.
I am also all for some of the SNPs ideals but some radical out of the box thinking is required here and it is by no means a quick fix.
Maybe national service or boot camp may help or encourage the family unit to stick together or even more radical would be to neuter families with generation after generation of criminals (sorry if that one offends) something radical should be done all new ideas must be discussed no matter how unpalatable, decent law abiding people should be protected. This is really a big can of worms, which has built up over a number of years. And requires a long-term solution not a short-term plaster.
390

The Master,

12/02/2008 18:12:37
To elaborate on the prophecy made by Anthony Burgess in "A Clockwork Orange", horrible teenagers will not stop being horrible until they are old, when they will vote for the Tartan Tories and have children who will repeat their horrible works, but the Tartan Tories will be unable to do anything about it. Get the Nats out prompto before their ridiculous policies make matters worse! Everyone knows that the best way to encourage something is try to suppress it, so introducing stealth taxes just won’t help! I always say that no unworkable policies can ever come from a party that’s foolhardy enough to believe in Scottish Independence. As a drinker myself and someone who’s concerned about the future wellbeing of Scotland, I say it’s time to bin the b*stards, end of!
391

Euan,

Edinburgh 12/02/2008 18:12:44
Quite frankly, I think this whole thing is a total cop-out by the Government.

If there was proper enforcement in place to consistently punish off licenses and pubs when they are caught selling alcohol to underage people, a lot of Scotland's alcohol problems would go away.

If they just stuck true to their word in the first place we would not be in this situation..
392

Disputer,

12/02/2008 18:13:34
It is very difficult to enforce laws.

How many owners of dog-shitters are fined?

How many people are done for dropping litter?

The government's got it in for car owners, smokers & drinkers. Maybe we need 2000 more police.
393

Braesbear,

12/02/2008 18:15:29
444 beckypumps 1

Well said. I agree 100% with everything you have laid out here. Well done. Its a pity that there is not a political party around who would have the balls to offer even some of your suggestions to the electorate. If they did then they would on a winner.

The problem is that our spineless politicians would rather pander to the lazy, feral, anti social miscreants who populate or towns and cities than support the hard working, law abiding majority who fund the whole rotten system.

394

Disputer,

12/02/2008 18:17:18
445

He he he. And there was no crime in Scotland when Labour/libdems were in power. It's the very fact that the neds in Scotland (Labour) were in power for so long that we've got to the state we're in.

The SNP are looking for a quick fix to a problem that should have been addressed eons ago.

ps....this proposal would not be a quick fix. If it goes through, watch the SNP vote plummet.

Down with the nanny state.