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Scotland's Poles split over plan to set up their own schools

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Published Date: 03 January 2009
POLISH parents are planning to set up their own schools in Scotland because they fear their children are losing their native language, disadvantaging them when they go home.
Piotr Leszczynski, the Polish vice-consul in Scotland, told The Scotsman discussions are under way with the Ministry of Education in Poland to fund the schools.

The schools, based in premises which are currently empty, would be run by Polish tea
chers, living in Scotland but mostly working in other jobs.

However, the move has divided the Polish community, many of whom have been in Scotland since the Second World War, who say they favour integration with Scots pupils.

Earlier this year, the Scottish Government revealed there are 3,347 school pupils whose first language is Polish.

At present a small number of children attend Polska Szkola (Polish Saturday school) but some parents say these are understaffed and fail to meet the needs of children of different age groups.

Mr Leszczynski said parents began making inquires about Polish schools two years ago.

"I was really astonished the first time I was asked by a parent where they could find a Polish school for their child.

"They were intending staying five or six years and didn't want to create a situation where they returned to Poland with their child not being able to speak the language."

One parent involved in the plan and who is currently working a teacher, said: "The language is the most basic issue. Being able to communicate in Polish is one thing but the children need to be able to write it, understand the grammar and read it to be a good native speaker."

Wioleta Browarczyk, from Edinburgh, who has two children, Natalia, and Krzysio, opposes the idea of Polish schools. "I don't think it is a good idea to keep children separated. We don't want a closed community. Scottish people welcomed us here. I want my children to be able to communicate and play with Scottish children, " Mrs Browarczyk said.

"You can work with your child at home, speak Polish at home and have Polish books you can teach them yourself and keep Polish traditions alive."

Marek Straczynski, president of the Polish ex-Combatants' Association, Edinburgh, whose premises are used for a Polish Saturday school, said: "Some people who have come from Poland in recent years are opportunists, they come to make some money, start a business. They don't intend staying long."

Ronnie Smith, general secretary of the EIS, Scotland's largest teaching union, said: "There are very big issues for public authorities if they become drawn into specialist Polish funding because we are then on to questions of equity. I don't think there could be an open-ended commitment. There are other immigrant communities."

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government said: "Scotland's schools have an increasing number of Polish pupils and the Scottish Government encourages all schools to do as much as they can to be inclusive of pupils from different cultures and of different nationalities."

FACT BOX

• SCOTS traded with Poland from the mid-15th century.

• During the 17th century there were more than 40,000 Scots in Poland, attracted by commercial opportunities and religious freedom.

• Alexander Chalmers of Aberdeen served four terms as mayor of Warsaw before he died in 1703.

• Robert Gordon (1665-1731) made his fortune as merchant in Gdansk before establishing an institution which later became Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen.

• Bonnie Prince Charlie was half-Polish, being the son of James Edward Stewart and Clemantina Sobieska, granddaughter of Jan Sobieska, king of Poland.

• The Second World War brought around 50,000 Polish servicemen to Scotland after they were evacuated from France in 1940.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 02 January 2009 10:40 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

subrosa,

03/01/2009 00:16:56
This is a ridiculous idea. Many children live in other countries and are bi-lingual or tri-lingual. Once this kind of school is permitted then it opens the flood gates and we accommodate immigrants far better than any other country as it is.

Let the children enjoy the Scottish culture or go home to Poland.
2

Gina Gibson,

Wales 03/01/2009 00:17:06
Here's a revolutionary idea....why don't they learn to speak English?

They could then attend the schools that we already have.
3

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/01/2009 00:30:53


Frankly their is a lot more to this story!

I have told you all on numerous occasion's, the "Poles", shame us on family value matters!

The "Poles" are 'Fighters' they WILL Fight for Their Children!




The "Poles" are here, 'Like-it-or Not'!

They WILL do things in Scotland, to make it a better place to live in, and shame us in the 'Process'!

They WILL, get their own Schools!

They WILL, get their PBOS,....Polish Bank of Scotland!

They WILL, get the Polish Flag, flying from Edinburgh Castle!

WHY YOU ASK??

BECAUSE WE WERE FOOLISH, AND MISSED THE BUS!!

TO THE SHAME OF US!!!

'Well-Done' to all our Polish immigrants!!


You have 'Standards', that we Disregarded and Lost!!


4

Selgovae,

03/01/2009 00:49:04
#1 "Many children live in other countries and are bi-lingual or tri-lingual"

True, but how many British ex-pats in Africa for example send their kids to the local school?
5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/01/2009 00:49:24

Another thing!

You want the SNP to Win All?

You want independence?

Will You can have all this, Yesterday!

How Charles, yo ask?

Elect a "Polish" Leader, then You WILL See Action!





6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/01/2009 00:52:11
re: correct #5,

Another thing!

You want the SNP to Win All?

You want independence?

Well!, You can have all this, Yesterday!

How Charles, you ask?

Elect a "Polish" Leader, then You WILL See Action!


7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 03/01/2009 00:54:49



The "Poles" are a 'Blessing' to Scotland!,

They work hard, they WILL show us how its Done!

My head is in shame!


8

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

03/01/2009 01:58:01
I wouldn't blame anyone for setting up their own schools. Our schools are a national disgrace. In fact it's time we natives starting setting up our own community run schools.
9

GugaII,

Rockall 03/01/2009 02:06:26
Just testing
10

,

03/01/2009 02:08:20
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11

,

03/01/2009 02:12:03
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,

03/01/2009 02:21:26
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13

Gorach,

Back hame 03/01/2009 02:27:04
The Poles or any other newcomers can open their own schools but they must pay for it themselves. No way should the Scottish government be paying one penny.
Segregation is a backwards step.I would prefer one public school system for all students but the Catholic schools are an established historical fact in Scotland so fair enough. The only other schools we as a nation should support are the Gaelic medium schools.
14

,

03/01/2009 02:27:18
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15

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

03/01/2009 02:59:25
I don't think the govt should help to pay for these schools because if the govt pays, then they get involved in running them, and they haven't got a clue how to run a school.
16

,

03/01/2009 03:28:35
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17

Helene,

Ontario, Canada 03/01/2009 04:07:11
#18 Colinton Mains in Oakville - I am a language teacher just down the highway from you in Steel City. For Poles in Scotland to want to consider setting up Polish language schools, forget it. Hire Polish speaking tutors.
You have no idea what it's like teaching in urban areas in countries like Canada as far as languages are concerned - in some classes there are as many as a dozen languages spoken in addition to English. Polish speaking children who have committed parents nurturing them in their native language should be able to do well in both English and Polish. They can of course establish private schools that meet local standards.
#8 NIG - I currently have young family members in Scottish schools who are doing extremely well there. Scotland's schools are not a national disgrace.
18

Ju@nkerr.,

03/01/2009 04:28:20
I must admit it would be slightly sad too see it as they add so much to the Scottish community.
19

Argyll on line,

Strachur 03/01/2009 06:09:59
Not mentioned in this piece is the fact of a very similar history between the two countries. Apart from the obvious one of being pushed around by larger neighbours,Poland had an established Presbyterian Church which was wiped put during the counter- reformation which swept across much of Europe after the Council of Trent.The destabilisation of the Throne of Her Grace Queen Mary 1st by the Suthron establishment halted the counter reformation in Scotland.
20

drunken proffet,

Tassy 03/01/2009 07:43:32
You would find if you asked any world wanderers with children that the kids learn to speak to their friends in any language you could name. When they come back home unfortunately they usually forget that gift.
21

drunken proffet,

Tassy 03/01/2009 07:45:36
I should add that when it comes to education, they should be taught in their own language.
22

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 03/01/2009 08:36:52
There are obviously two groups: One that came here to live and work and stay, and another group of Poles who came here only for work with the full intention of returning to Poland.

So be it. If they want to isolate themselves until they return to Poland, let them pay for these schools entirely by themselves.

The Americans do this with their American Schools throughout the world, where the children are educated entirely to American Standards, with the entire contents and materials of the schools imported from America (even the school desks in some cases).

The problem with this group isolating themselves like this, is that they face the same problems here that they are trying to avoid when they return to Poland. They will be disadvantaged.

If this plan goes ahead, in the years to come we will hear these very people complaining about discrimination.

You can be a Scot or a Pole, but not a Pole pretending to be a Scot. (We already have enough Scots, like Maggie Broon, who pretend to be Scots).
23

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/01/2009 08:40:05
#14 Gaga

Aw, is diddums being blocked by the nasty Hootsman? Have you considered that's is because yir a ba'bag?
24

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/01/2009 08:44:21
#14 Goo Goo GaGa

"Breaching Your Human Rights" because you cant post on a newspaper forum?

Ha Ha Ha Ha.

25

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/01/2009 08:54:27
The world is facing economic meltdown, hundreds of people are dying in the middle east, global warming is melting the polar ice caps and GooGoo GaGa is taking the Scotsman To the European Courts for Breaching his human rights.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.
26

,

03/01/2009 08:55:31
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27

Masterpiece,

03/01/2009 09:14:19
Yes. Of course. Polish people should have Polish schools in Scotland, why not?Do they not also pay taxes? English people have English schools in Scotland and they get them free of charge.
Scottish parents who go overseas and pay taxes also get English schools in New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Canada and the USA.
28

Unimpressed one,

03/01/2009 09:17:29
If you choose to live here then you must accept our system of law and education. If you don't like it go back to where you came from. It's really that simple.
29

Scimitar1,

Strathclyde 03/01/2009 09:38:37
More evidence of the abject folly of multi-culturalism and unfettered immigration.

As the nation is being torn apart and organised down religious , ethnic and nationality grounds (sharia courts, madrassahs) , why shouldn't the indigenious peoples seek to organise themselves for and exclusively for themselves - if it's ok for the Poles,Pakistani's, Hindu's ,muslims etc then why not for the native peoples ?


30

roadstohell,

03/01/2009 09:42:12
My Father was Polish, part of the large number of troops who had no free homeland to return to after WW2.

I can communicate in Polish, but only that, any Pole who speaks with me will realise that I do not have a good grasp of the language. It is recognised as being one of the most difficult languages in the world to master. Polish kids spend huge amounts of their time at school studying the language, good old fashioned stuff,like grammar & spelling & orthography. To be honest most Polish kids can pick up English swiftly,as it is a relatively easy tongue to master, and the amount of time spent studying the English language, I don't mean literature here, is minimal.
To Poles, the Polish language is more than just a means of communication, it is an inherent part of their identity. For the most part of the lst 3-400 years Poland has been subjugated by either German or Russian speaking invaders, and the thing they clung onto fervently was the life blood, the essence of Polishness, was the language.Poland was not dead as long as it's children spoke the mother tongue.
Something I am sure that Scots & Gaelic speakers will understand. Now, from what I can see, some Poles want to have "Polish schools" in order to teach fluency in their mother tongue,as far as I know there is NO issue with other aspects of Scottish schools on their part.as regards numeracy,logic etc etc. The funding for any additional "Polish specific" teaching, it has been suggested by the Poles themsleves,is clearly to be borne by the Polish government and NOT by Scotland or the UK. However, I worry about "ghettoising" Polish education, and wish to see as much integration as possible among Polish & Scottish kids.
I know that there are many well qualified Polish teachers working here in the UK, BUT NOT as teachers, as the Scottish education establishment won't recognise thir qualifications,as a way of protecting the posts of Scottish teachers. Well, fair enough, BUT why not recognise their qualification
31

roadstohell,

03/01/2009 09:48:56
Well, fair enough, BUT why not recognise their qualifications in as much as they would teach the Polish language to Polish kids here in Scottish schools. Time could be freed up in the teaching day, to allow Polish to be taught to Polish kids by Polish teachers, I am sure that this cannot be beyond the wit of man, can it ?
Comments like, if you dont like it go home are not helpful. The British abroad did and do nothing to accomodate local conditions, they always have created a "little Britain" when they are abroad, so Brits abroad are NOT good examples of how it should be done

32

The Tin Man,

03/01/2009 09:58:29
#29 Guga

You can have a rant about the Isreali's here:

http://news.scotsman.com/leaders/Israel39s-strategy-in-Gaza-is.4840704.jp

Don't get the thread closed-down, now...
33

Masterpiece,

03/01/2009 09:59:56
It seems that English speaking Scots rarely if ever integrate if they go to another country, so why should the Polish people be any different.
A Scottish friend lives in Italy and speaks English at home to her children and sends them to an English school in Florence.

The parents often remark that they wouldn't dream of sending their children to a local Italian school as they would be so common. So much for integration.
34

Old Town Resident,

edinburgh 03/01/2009 10:00:43
Surely the solution is Saturday Schools run by the Polish community, perhaps in one of the local schools. Then everyone would be happy. It would be sad for the children to not be part of the Scottish Education system and feel part of the country they are living in, however long or short their stay.
35

The Tin Man,

03/01/2009 10:11:12
#36 Masterpiece

Very true. People from the UK moving abroad and sending their childern to a foreign-language school ('integrating'), would be most unusual.

Jimmy goes to Warsaw and sends Jemima to a Polish school? Shining brightly in the night.
36

The Tin Man,

03/01/2009 10:14:51
#38 MacGillicuddy

Are you implying that Scot's are somehow uninvolved ""British" hypocrisy"?
37

Faux Cul,

03/01/2009 10:23:37
# 39 Tin Man


"Very true. People from the UK moving abroad and sending their children to a foreign-language school ('integrating'), would be most unusual."


Keich!

Happens all the time in France and Spain.

Any other way round is just a small minority of rich, snobbish refugees

You should get out more.
38

The Tin Man,

03/01/2009 10:25:40
#41

I stand corrected Monseur Faux.
39

radge dug,

Alba 03/01/2009 10:39:50
Aidh, how man English folk learn the local language abroad? The English/ Brits are shameful when it comes to mixing in with other cultures. Most of the lobster coloured Brits on the costas can't even say 'hola' properly.

We can't provide schools for evryone though, especially when lots of these Poles go home after a couple of years. They should send their kids to the Gaelic schools and keep up the Polish at home. Kids with 3 languages have much higher attainnment and mental skils and are what future employers are looking for.
40

radge dug,

03/01/2009 10:44:09
At the Tollcross Gaelic unit there are more than 10 languages spoken amongst the kids. I've met some kids who can switch instantly between German or Spanish and Gaelic and English.

I wish some of the Little Brits here would have the courage to go and find out about these things instead of just regurgitating predjudices.
41

Faux Cul,

03/01/2009 10:46:59
In fact Tin Man there are about 5 or 6 fulltime resident families in my town (about 10,000 inhabitants) and they tend to be dispersed so there is no ghetto mentality.

There are about another 5 to 10 individuals, couples or families who live here part time, various degrees of live.

Their kids or the fulltime residents all go to the local schools of which there are two secondary ones.

One is state the other private.

Both follow the same curriculum and the "private" one accepts all who pay. The fees are very small in comparison withe the UK and receive a fee per child from the state. The private can expel miscreants to the State system but this rarely happens.

In large cities transient expats can and do send their kids to "english" language schools, subsidised by the state, to maintain a continuity in anticpation of repatriation.

In Paris the very rich and snobbish do whatever they want.

Ask Hugh R about Spain and I am 100% it is the same.

I have just read that in Normandy they have specially trained teacher to integrate these kids into the French system and this sometimes includes "teaching" the parents too.

My builder and plumber are both English, have lived here for years and their kids go to the local schools

Happy New Year Tinnie
42

Eustace,

/ 03/01/2009 11:54:59

47
Were you a Scottish expat? If so which part of Scotland do you/your family come from? Have you attended State School in Scotland if so which part of Scotland did you live in?

There are sometimes attempts to force some incomers or their children/grandchildren into other types of communities. There is no respect for Family Life or Liberty.


43

Eustace,

/ 03/01/2009 12:00:23

Seeking to fit in, attending all playgroups, Mother and Toddlers, Church, Sunday School, Nursery, assisting Voluntarily with Community Groups none of these protect you from adverse activity.
44

Eustace,

/ 03/01/2009 12:07:48

It is considered acceptable to threaten and harass incomers both in isolation in their homes, as they attempt to go about their work, attend for Hospital or other treatment, at School, wherever they may go and to encourage others to do so.
45

Eustace,

/ 03/01/2009 12:11:18


There are Inclusion Officers to threaten with

Children's Hearings.
46

Eustace,

/ 03/01/2009 12:15:16



They operate like gangs.
47

roadstohell,

03/01/2009 12:16:59
it seems that some folk don't read pervious posts when they comment;
these are not envisaged as seperate schools, with seperate buildings/playgrounds etc etc.
The only "extra" subject intended to be taught is that of the "Polish Language", it's complex grammatical structure is taught over many years from primary through to early secondary,and it is not intended to teach maths,geography etc etc etc ,just Polish language.
It is envisaged that the Polish governemt funds all the costs involved
Whether this is a small allocation of the school day set aside specifically for Polish Kids, or as saturday schools is debatable.
There are a large number of very well qualified Polish teaching staff here NOT working as teachers. I persoanlly think that these are the people that could be doing the specialised "Polish language" teaching, IF the Scottish Teaching bodies would allow it,but as I said earlier, they have so far refused to aknowledge Polish teaching qualifications, and in fact in most cases even Polish University degrees.
Listen, Poland is a sophisticated & well educated society, with electric light & even running water !!!!!Some people here seem to think of Poland as some sort of "Boratania", the reality is not so.
48

sam the god,

03/01/2009 12:27:59
what is wrong with thier parents teaching them to speak polish as they are polish themselfs?
49

Eustace,

/ 03/01/2009 12:32:28


If your extended family live a distance away you may find it difficult to see them at all owing to the degree of disruption, non-co-operation and control which is exercised.
50

roadstohell,

03/01/2009 13:08:51
#54 The teaching of the Polish language is an highly specialised skill, even in Polish schools you will have a teacher for the Polish language, and another for all other subjects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language
this link will give you an insight as to how difficult it is to master the Polish language.
The Defense Language Institute breaks the languages they teach into tiers for the purposes of how much difficulty native speakers of English have learning the language. If I remember correctly, most western European languages such as Spanish and French are on Tier I, German is on Tier II, Russian and Farsi are on Tier III, and Arabic and Chinese are on tier IV.
51

,

03/01/2009 13:17:19
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52

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 03/01/2009 13:39:55
#9 Guga II

Are you being pursued or harrassed by some troll or idiotic poster?

Charles Linskaill

We get your point. Please calm down as your exuberance may be to the detriment of your valid arguments.

I am ambivalent about the setting up of Polish schools in Scotland because, as one poster stated, it could start a trend and a myriad of problems would arise if many nationalities think it is their right to have "nationalistic" schools as part of the Scottish learning landscape.
53

The Hiker,

Fife 03/01/2009 14:59:06
As a someone who has lived overseas for a number of years in 90s, I can absolutely assure all the people on this forum, that British expats will generally set up their own schools, and most, (not all), British expats will send their kids to the local British (or International) school, given the choice.
We Brits are probably the worst "integrators", when it comes to living in a foreign country. Along with of course, in general, being the worst linguists.

Our son went to the local school 4 1/2 days a week, and he went to a small private British School, 1/2 a day a week. (when the local schools were closed)

That half day ensured he could read and write in English, which helped him enormously to integrate, when we we came home after 8 years overseas.(when he was 10 years old)
54

Calum Crubag,

03/01/2009 15:12:55
Gaelic and English are the languages of Scotland and are what should principally be taught to kids. Though, the famous flexibility of the Scots Education system should allow for other langauges to be given time. Primary kids could do some lessons - PE or art - in whatever language.

Thats how Gaelic medium operates and with great success. French is now being taught as a medium, and not a second language, in some schools.

Young children can easily handle fluency in multiple languages. Give them the chance if possible. If Poles or whoever want their own seperate schools, then let them pay for them.
55

Calum Crubag,

03/01/2009 15:17:03
#57 - I agree, but first all the fat Brits in the costas and in Dubai who rake in the cash, don't speak the local lingo and send their money home should be repatriated first. We need to set a good example, don't we.

Money grabbing English-only speaking Union Jack flying sun-worshipping fat Brits in France, Spain, various Arab states etc need to toe the line or be forced out.
56

roadstohell,

03/01/2009 15:18:47
#60 You do of course wish to extend the list to include "Scots" don't you ?
57

roadstohell,

03/01/2009 15:19:51
http://www1.fa.knaw.nl/mercator/regionale_dossiers/PDFs/scots_in_scotland.PDF
58

Thane of Howden,

Livingston 03/01/2009 15:20:50
Polish language and culture can be taught alongside on another. Their need be no competition between the two. Integration relies on incomers learning the ways of their chosen country, but does not rely on them forgetting or neglecting their own.
And always remember - Scots can learn a bit of Polish, you should try - it might be fun.

59

bluewave,

West coast 03/01/2009 16:54:39
Dobry den.

I lived in Prague for two years and whilst the Czechs are different from the Poles the common denominators IMO are that they are all very hard working, very well educated and something many people miss: VERY VERY proud people. They are not a pushover at all and can be very tough, hard even cold people. But win their loyalty and I think they are extremely humourous and very good friends to have.

Generalisations aside I am against the segregation of school children on any grounds. I think Scotland should be seeking to make our education system as secular as France's for instance including the eventual closure of all religious denominational schools. So whilst I am a fan of Poles in general I don't support such a move. Religion, language and culture should be a matter for the home not school.
60

Observer,,

Glasgow 03/01/2009 19:58:44
Wrong - no Polish schools and there shouldn't be any Catholic schools or muslim schools either. If you live here you are a Scot, by all means have a dual identity that is perfectly cool but this rubbish of sorting weans out by their parents choice is nonsense.
61

,

03/01/2009 20:21:36
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62

,

03/01/2009 20:23:24
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63

Rufus-T-Firefly,

03/01/2009 20:29:29
Ribbonman is nearly as gaga as Goo Goo.
64

Masterpiece,

03/01/2009 22:20:18
33
It is important to remember that language plays no part in Scotlands identity and is unimportant to Scottish people as English is spoken by the whole of the UK.

The situation is very different in Wales and Brittany as their identity is wound up in the Welsh and Breton languages.
65

Gorach,

Oban 04/01/2009 00:05:37
69
So very wrong.
Come to the Gaelic west and isles and we will introduce you to Gaelic language,music and literature.
You will soon understand the heart of Scotland.
This heart is still beating after 1500 years and is getting stronger.
66

Edinburgh Aussie,

Krakow, Poland 04/01/2009 08:39:19
I am also the daughter of a WW2 Polish soldier unable to return after the end of that war. To my eternal sadness I do not speak fluent Polish -at all! My father wanted to fit into Scottish society so I was not brought up speaking his language. I too have problems communicating with my Polish relatives - but do my best.

Now I am living in Krakow and can testify that the Polish language is very difficult to learn. However, I do my best in my second home, and the locals smile and help me with my mistakes.

I understand the concerns that these Polish parents have and would suggest that they do what many Poles in other countries do - have Saturday school. In Australia, my other home, there are Polish Saturday schools. Thus the children are Aussies but also learn their Polish language and culture. It isn't difficult.

 

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