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Stop playing chicken over new bridge, politicians told



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Published Date: 06 January 2009
POLITICIANS in Westminster and Holyrood were last night urged to "stop playing chicken" over one of Scotland's most important projects, for the good of the country.
Fears have been raised that the game of political brinkmanship between the SNP Scottish Government and the Labour UK government over funding the new Forth road bridge could put the project at risk.

The row erupted at the end of last week when Treasury minister Yvette Cooper sent a letter to Scottish finance secretary John Swinney, telling him he could not spread the £2 billion needed for the project over 20 years.

She said it was impossible to take that sort of decision on budgets so far ahead.

Yesterday, it emerged that the request to the Treasury to do this had only been sent less than two weeks before SNP transport minister Stewart Stevenson stood up to announce the funding package in the strategic transport review on 10 December.

Gavin Brown, the Conservatives' enterprise spokesman, said: "This really is like watching a bad game of chess.

"But actually the two administrations need to stop playing chicken over what really is the most important strategic project in Scotland's medium and long term future."

He added: "You have to ask why the SNP government did not contact the Treasury before and what they have been doing for 17 months."

A spokesman for the Scottish Government said attempts were being made to arrange a meeting with the Treasury minister but insisted that even without the requested arrangement, the new bridge would be paid for.

He would not comment on where that left other capital projects when all the budget had been taken up by the new bridge.

However, the spokesman said he believed the Treasury could still be persuaded to change its mind and that a precedent had been set with bringing forward spending on "Millennium Goals" for helping the Third World.

"We were disappointed with the contents, but not surprised with the tone of the letter from Yvette Cooper," he said.

The spokesman ruled out using public private partnership (PPP) system of funding because he claimed it would be more expensive and "pointless". But he was unable to say how much a PPP deal would cost compared to direct government funding.

Labour have accused the SNP of trying to cover up their own incompetence.

They claim that the dispute has been manufactured because the funding agency created by the Scottish Government – the Scottish Futures Trust – is not up to the task of building the bridge.

"Now, Alex Salmond and John Swinney are desperately trying to shift the blame and put SNP interests ahead of Scotland's," said Labour's finance spokesman Andy Kerr.

"The onus is on them as the Scottish Government to find a credible way to pay for the crossing. The SNP must stop playing grudge and grievance politics in their own narrow interest while Scotland suffers."


How scheme was scaled back to £2bn

THE new Forth road bridge is needed because the existing structure is suffering from wear and tear and may not be able to take heavy goods vehicles in about ten years.

It is hoped the new bridge will be completed by 2016, however under the plan announced by Stewart Stevenson, the transport minister, last month, it will no longer be a replacement bridge.

Instead, the new £2 billion bridge will take road traffic, while the old bridge will continue to take buses, trains, pedestrians and cyclists, and even, according to Mr Stevenson, trams.

The proposal is a scaled down version of the original scheme, which would have cost £4 billion and would have been more flexible in case the old bridge was completely unusable.

The SNP wants to pay for this direct from the Scottish Government's capital budget.

This is because the party opposes private finance initiatives, which it claims are expensive and have lost their point because governments will no longer be able to keep the loans off their balance sheets.

The full article contains 668 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 January 2009 11:53 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges
 
1

Rufus-T-Firefly,

05/01/2009 22:24:29
"The Scottish Government today announced its way forward for infrastructure investment in Scotland to secure new schools, hospitals and transport projects at better value to the public purse."

"It will bring together the expertise to enable a Scotland-wide municipal bond to fund future infrastructure projects"

From the Scottish Executive website, May 2008.

So, why is the Scottish Futures Trust not being used to fund the building of the new Forth Bridge?
2

webwise,

Scotland 05/01/2009 22:43:50
Comment 1 asks:
"So, why is the Scottish Futures Trust not being used to fund the building of the new Forth Bridge?"

It clearly can't be used yet otherwise I imagine that it would. Now, that is as honest answer as I can give.

Perhaps you could explain why the bringing forward of capital project funding, announced by Labour for England, is being refused Scotland?

Incidently, full fiscal autonomy would allow a Scottish Government to borrow in times of need, such as this and would negate the need to efectively 'beg' for funding. I believe that the SFT, which is a more cost effective means of funding, also works best with full fiscal autonomy.
3

Jimmy Le Pie,

06/01/2009 00:07:43
Gavin Brown??????????

Who he??????????????
4

Forward not Back,

06/01/2009 00:09:28
As I said yesterday, with the downturn in economic activity hitting Edinburgh harder than most places, is a new bridge really needed?
5

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:10:36


Well we had tonight, David Whitton called for the Forth Road Bridge to be funded by the same PPP method, risking the necessity of tolls being re-introduced to Scotland's bridges......

What a shambles Labour are.

I can see that some trolls have already been introduced above......
6

COLINTON.MAINS,

Oakville Ontario 06/01/2009 00:11:03
build.it.and.send.WESTMINSTER.the.damn.bill
7

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:13:05
1. Beetlebum

Why is PPP being proposed by Labour?

How much will a PPP Forth Road Crossing Cost? £8BILLION/ £12BILLION?

Why do Labour want to waste taxpayers money by using PPP?

Why are they threatening other infrastructure projects when they've made clear calls for more public spending?

Why are Labour risking tolls returning to the Forth by advocating PPP?



8

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:17:08

1. Because such a unique project does not benefit from the aggregation benefits of grouping projects and requires a clear and controllable budget not linked to private finance....... in short, such a project must be controlled by the Government, not private companies as would occur with any public private finance vehicle.

David Whitton was awful tonight on new-night.

He basically said that he'd waste tax payers money by going down the PPP route, despite that money coming on balance sheet.

He could not confirm whether tolls would need to be re-introduced or not.

Labour are in compete metldown over this.

The story ran headline on BBC Scotland.




9

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 00:18:50
The nastyonallists are not just playing, chicken is in their blood.

I often feel sorry for the poor individuals, so I have written some words to calm their under developed minds:


What accomplishes respect does only good.

What invokes life lives.

Cheat and lament longingly.

Manage empathy.

Talk righteously and find friendship in contentment.

When all rhetoric dances end negativity.

Be yourself.

Make indivisible division, negativity inanimate, good health tangible.
10

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:21:47

2. NHS Hubs Projects have already been announced under SFT, it is in operation with more projects to follow soon.

Two pathfinder areas - initially in South East Scotland and then the North of Scotland, each supported by £1.4 million from the Scottish Government - are bringing public bodies together in joint programmes of infrastructure investment.

The projects will demonstrate what SFT is capable of - more effective investment planning, procurement and delivery to reduce project costs

You correctly state however that straightforward public funding is the most cost effective and sustainable way to fund this particular project.

Labour are wrong on this and if the amount of spin h says anything, they are aware that they will take a kicking over it.


11

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:23:17

9. Number 9 please come in, your time is up

(I think I the 'real' warden coming 'warden', she won't be happy that you've logged on to the computer with her name, that computer isn't for the eldery and infirm, it's meant for staff only)
12

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:23:48


9. Your poetry is rotten so it is
13

truthsleuth,

06/01/2009 00:24:13
This bridge is not necessary so let those who want it pay for it.

Who wants the bridge
Motorists and Road hauliers

Who should pay for it
Motorists and Road Hauliers (they wrecked the first bridge and will wreck all bridges)

I have a solution
Let the Motorists and Road hauliers (and other supporters) form a private company to build the bridge (its odd but the motoring fraternity are often the biggest critics of state spending and yet are probabaly the biggest state fund spenders).

Each shareholder would be entitled to cross the new bridge free of charge by purchase of a certain minimum number of shares in the company.

This way the road fraternity would be able to put their money where their mouths are, get their new bridge and not have to pay tolls without being a burden on the taxpayer.

The recent reduction in fuel costs should leave the motorists and hau;liers with lots of cash to buy shares so they have no real excuse not to do so.

PS
Cigarrete smokers pay tax as do drinkers they cannot claim free smaking rooms or cigarrete lighters so neoither should road users be able to continually claim to have 'free roads and bridges' at the expense of the taxpayer
14

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:25:17
"....Labour yesterday launched a dossier accusing the Tories of doing nothing to help tackle the global economic challenges......"


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


Labour / Launch / Dossier


Oh How we cried.
15

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:30:16


13. Surely by that logic we should all only pay for the services we use. directly.

"there is no such thing as society....."

We all benefit from having a thriving manufacturing & shipping industry along the east coast and in future a dedicated public transport corridor.

I'd happily take very slightly lower spending over the next 20 years to pay for this once in a generation bridge.

Labour are again actively endorsing the least cost-effective measure, whether it is PPP or slashing current budgets to pay for this.......

Not content with burning £12BILLION on xmas frocks with their VAT binge, they're now trying to scupper what will be a potent symbol of Scotland's new found confidence.

Shameful



16

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:33:35
1. PS It's the Scottish Government Website

www.scotland.gov.uk
17

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:33:59


Agreed

Devolution is not working
18

,

06/01/2009 00:37:26
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
19

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 00:40:44
16-Southside Jimmy- A couple of Neanderthals gain the ability to travel through time, and land in present day scotland at a Scottish nastyonallist rally.

The first Neanderthal says to the other “Unbelievable these locals have still not reached our high level of intelligence”

And the second says “That’s nothing, I have been looking through their recent history. A number of years ago it seems they started a process of de-evolution; and have regressed so much that a small number of these poor idiots, as you can see, have started to pack together and talk total nonsense.”



20

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:41:06

19"I'm Sorry"

I accept your apology, now off to bed with you.

Nobody want's your brand of fairytales cluttering up the comments pages,.

For god sakes Warden!

When was the last time you changed those jim jams, that;s positively putrid you old barsteward......phewy!...... goddam warden...... you been eating sugar puffs again.


21

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 00:41:47


20. Your patter's rotten
22

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 00:54:26
If London Labour continues like this the only campaigning material the SNP will need in 2010 is a leaflet with the name of their candidate.

Thatcher's insensitivity led to Devolution, Brown and Darling's arrogance will lead to Independence.

Brian Soutar can put his next donation towards buying the Scotsman group whose shares will be lower than the HBOS by next year.
23

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 01:08:30
21-Wardog™-Like I said not warden, it’s wardumb dear.

...What jim jams you tease?
24

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 01:11:25
22-Wardog™-My patter is rotten, but more than worthy for the audience it is meant for.
25

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 01:12:11

25. Naked, I knew it but I don't like it...... go an put something on, the children are pointing and laughing at you from the window across the street......


26

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 01:12:38

26. That's more like it, a bit of dunkirk spirit, that's the old warden!
27

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 01:13:20
23-Southside Jimmy-#9 was meant for another.
28

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 01:21:00
27-Wardog™-…cripes, get me my spiderman costume, it’s behind that panel in the wall.

…I would hardly call mid forties as being children…

…I can’t wait to see their chubby faces when they see crossing the roof tops.
29

allandale,

stirlingshire 06/01/2009 01:25:33

Re 13 who says motorists should pay for new Forth
Bridge. Well, motorists have been paying Road Tax
for years, and we have very few good roads to
for it compared to England.
30

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/01/2009 01:29:13

The Scottish Government has no control over the timescale of the new bridge, which has to be in place by the time the current bridge may be closed to some traffic in 2016, and because of the sheer scale of a budget of between £1.7bn and £2.3bn when Scotland's annual capital budget runs at about £3.5bn, the Treasury should be more flexible......

The Treasury seem to have simply failed to understand the sheer size and timescale of the Forth replacement crossing, No doubt that if this had been a £20bn transport project crucial to London then a way would have been found to make it happen.....

John Swinney has also mentioned that a precedent has already been setup for spreading the costs over a similar period by the Millenium Goals Initiative.

Worth checking out.

This is a huge once-in-a-generation piece of infrastructure on which the Scottish economy and Scottish public are critically dependent, Brown and Darling are making a mockery of devolution.


31

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 01:31:09

30. Nice image, you dangling in front of the window
32

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 01:31:30
Isn't it true that many of our road which originated in the eighteenth century were conceived by the English. We could at least maintain them with a local road tax similar to the LIT.
33

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 01:37:54

32. Coileach an taobh Tuath

I read that too Coileach re: Millenium Goals Initiative.

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/funding/

Haven't been able to locate any details yet, but it's obvious that budgets are being set for 2015/17......

It might be the case that the Uk and Scottish Government simply agree a shorter funding period, say 10-15 years starting now. rather than 20.

It will put more pressure on finances but may be the only workable alternative to what the SNP originally proposed.







34

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/01/2009 01:40:37

34 John Loudon McAdam
35

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 01:44:10

34 Are you alluding to General Wade, Warden.

Yes, Scot's welcomed the garrisons, violence, raping and looting that the roads brought.

We really aren't worthy of such dividends



36

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/01/2009 01:47:48

"To remedy these Inconveniences there was an Act of Parliament, passed in the year 1716 for the more effectual securing the Peace of the Highlands in Scotland, by Disarming the Highlanders, which has been so ill executed, that the Clans the most disaffected to Your Majesty's Government remain better Armed than ever."
"The Legislature in Scotland before the Union of the Kingdoms have ever considered the Highlands in a different State from the rest of the Nation, and made peculiar Laws for their Government under severest Penalties. The Chieftains of Clans were obliged to send their Children or nearest Relations to Edinburgh as Hostages for the good behaviour of their respective Clans, and in default they might by the Law be put to death."

"I cannot omit observing to Your majesty; this National tenderness your Subjects of North Britain have one for the other, is great encouragement to the Rebells and attained Persons to return home from their Banishment."

General Wade 1724



17 YEARS AFTER THE GLORIOUS ACT OF UNION 1707


37

Wisnaeme,

06/01/2009 02:05:42


Gavin Brown the Conservative whatever spokesperson said, " ach whatever".

So are the Tories proposing to be impartial referees with their suggestive digestives of removing the digit?

What would their preferred option be? Let me guess.

Ah yes, Maggie's little darlings. Do they think Scots have a short memory span. We haven't forgotten Ian Lang or the tube with the tube,Forsythe.

PFI and the Skye bridge scam, anyone.

Ah, but things are done better now, say the Tweedledee Tories and their more of a sameness Tweedledum New Labour.

Indeed they most certainly are Mr Brown and Mr Brown...

.
38

,

06/01/2009 03:01:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
39

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/01/2009 03:35:27
Gavin Brown said

"But actually the two administrations need to stop playing chicken over what really is the most important strategic project in Scotland's medium and long term future."

A bridge is the "most important strategic project"?

A bit of concrete span is the best we can hope for in "Scotland's medium and long term future."?

These Tories seem a very ambitious lot.

London Gets:

Olympics

Crossrail

Heathrow Railhub

Highspeed Rail to Manchester

And we have to beg for 1 stinking bridge to replace one that is starting to reach the end of its working life?

The Union can Foxtrot Oscar.

40

Forward not Back,

06/01/2009 04:37:02
#41 - based on the list of infrastructure projects the SNP wish to deliver, yes it is.
41

Rodster,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 06:10:39
This will run and run, and I forecast that Gordon Quisling Brown and his cohorts will rue the day they yet again stuck the boot into their own country for nothing more than party political gain.
They will sow what they reap.
42

donald,

glasgow 06/01/2009 06:59:13
Chickens? Labour should be tarred and feathered, like the Yanks did to the Brit traitors in their midst.
43

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 07:07:50
37-Wardog™-Ah the sainted General Wade himself.
Shame on you for trying to sully the achievements of such a hero.
The violence, raping and looting you are alluding to were already the bane of the traveller in scotland before the new roads, the garrisons allowed a semblance of law and order, and with it the expansion of commerce and education.
44

steve 1511,

aberdeen 06/01/2009 07:11:48
i do not hear the labour mps in westminster shouting and putting the case for funds for infastructure projects in scotland,they are nothing but yes men for broon.

WE ARE DOOMED WITH BROON,DOOOOMED
45

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 07:17:49
38-Coileach an taobh Tuath-Was it not these same chieftains of clans who instigated the clearances?
The same chieftains of clans who gave scots their reputation for being tight fisted.
And the same chieftains of clans who accepted sums of money not to fight in the last jacobite rebellion. Not that it took much to do so, as most people knew the Stuarts’ interest was with the English crown, not the Scottish one.
46

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 07:38:17
47

Aye well we commonly refer to these folk as unionists today.
47

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 07:41:41
45

So now youre a genocide denier? what next the holocaust never happened? or the union was formed democratically?
48

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 07:44:23
49
Genocide denier? How so?
49

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 07:49:04
13

Another moron complaining that his taxes are being used exactly for what his taxes should be spent on instead of being used to prolong illegal wars and dodgy foreign policy.
restructuring the country is exactly what you pay taxes for why dont you save your complaining for when the government squanders your taxation on criminal activities and party political ventures?

50

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 07:54:54
50

After Culloden General Cumberland son of George the 2nd went on a genoncidal rampage throughout the highlands which I believe Wardog was referring to in his post at 37.
51

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 07:57:37
50

From our National anthem no less.

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May, by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush
And, like a torrent, rush
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.

Yes a real hero to Scotland.
52

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 07:58:51
52
Wardog made no such reference in his post. The use of the term 'genocidal' is inaccurate when describing the actions of Cumberland. This kind of hysterical revision of our history is dangerous and should be challenged whenever it is repeated.
53

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:01:16
1.

Because the Scottish government is looking at alternatives I thought that was obvious even to a moron such as yourself. What any normal person would ask is why is the UK government obstructing the project by not allowing advance spending in Scotland while at the same time proposing the same policy in England and Wales? but normality just doesnt apply to you does it?
54

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 06/01/2009 08:04:17
It seems OK for the Treasury to borrow/print hundreds of billions to put out children and grandchildren in debt to bail out incompetent City speculators, but the Scottish Government, which, it was revealed by Yvette Cooper, is viewed as a Westminster government department, cannot be allowed to do this for key infrastructure projects.

#50
Don't forget "Dirty Dalrimple" too.
55

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:04:30
54

Oh really?

"violence, raping and looting that the roads brought."

Wouldnt be considered any reference at all to the actions of the "loyalist" army of King George after the battle of Culloden then?
and of course they didnt use Wade's Road to get to Culloden or use them to deploy their forces during their genocidal campaign?
56

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:07:12
54

GTF Its historical fact that the intent of Cumberlands troops would have been described today as ethnic cleansing if the term had existed in 1745 46.
Christ they even sang their intent in their new national anthem.
57

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 08:26:54
57/58
Oh dear, I suppose I should have known better than to make comment about a poster who uses the rather questionable name, A True Scot....
Care to explain your rather strange use of the term "loyalist"? Actually, on second thoughts, probably best not to.....
58

Rodster,

glasgow 06/01/2009 08:27:01
True
scot do not waste your time on Grahamski like quisling Brown he is a self loathing Scot.
He will deny any good by Scots or Scottishnation ,put down any idea no matter how sound by Nationalists.
he will justify and praise any action by Westminster up to and including illegal wars and genocide of Scottish nation.
so save your effort he is a lost cause , or as I prefer an Uncle Tom of Westminster a knee grovellor that has an inbuilt dependency culture on "his betters", probably still stays at home with his mammy and hands in his salary unopened and untouched , does not even know what The Labour Paty oays him for his rants on here
59

1745,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 08:27:43
Are we not good little Scots !!
Other nations complain vociferously when their governments do not comply with their wishes.Even the poor Palestinians God Help them!
But we sit around and let the ENGLISH say "No to us when we need our own cash back to complete a project.
G Brown is the Most Hated man in Britain no
wonder he needs a "Fortress" in Fife .
60

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 08:33:41
#58 A True Scot

Due to the English Imperialist revised history we've all been force-fed, I'll excuse you for apparently not knowing that English people were in the minority in Cumberland's army at Culloden. The poor old Papist supporting army of Polish Charlie were set upon with much gusto by their fellow, but Protestant Lowland, Scots. Plus ca change. What that's got to do with the FRB is quite beyond me.
61

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 06/01/2009 08:35:01
61 "G Brown is the Most Hated man in Britain no
wonder he needs a "Fortress" in Fife"

Which is why he probably doesn't want to let the bridgee go ahead as it would make his wee part of Scotland more accessible and, dare I say it, more ecomically viable and therefore would debunk his own idea that he "saved Fife and the World Beyond".
62

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 08:37:00
#61 1745

I take it there will be suitable 're-education' for those in Kirkcaldy who have had the audacity to keep re-electing Broon? Will the building of the new 're-education' camps be through PFI or the Scottish Futures Trust?
63

,

06/01/2009 08:39:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
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64

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:40:15
60

He isnt a Scot I doubt its ever been to Scotland in its life just another cyber git with nothing better to do with its time.
65

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:42:39
61

Maybe the Israellis should propose a union with the Palestinians using our "democratic" model as an example of how it should be between them?
No doubt the Palestinians would jump at the chance.
66

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:43:48
62

I never mentioned the English at all in fact I deliberatly referred to the army as "loyalist" did I not?
67

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 08:47:13
62

The Army itself was made up from quite a few mercenaries from all over Europe but you cant take away the fact that the army represented the English crown and was in fact on English crown business and wouldnt have been there in the first place if it wasnt for the fact that Scotland borders England and the English establishment were full of expansionist ideas.
68

eric,

lothian 06/01/2009 08:48:50
Scotland musnt be seen from outside as doing well under devolution with grand schemes like these,otherwise Wales etc will want as well.
69

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 08:50:43
#68 A 'True' Scot

Er, then since the rebellion by Polish Charlie was supported by only a minority of Scots, largely in the Highlands, then surely the use of the term 'loyalist' shouldn't be used pegoratively? Only the Nats could skew the will of the majority in a negative way. But then, you're still doing it.
70

Tynietiger,

06/01/2009 08:55:31
It is time for full political and financial iondependence. The UK Treasury is out of order and more interested in attacking the SNP than supporting sensible moves to beat the recession in Scotland. Glen Campbell showed his Labour loyalties on BBC Newsnight last night when he repeated false claims by Labour as fact that Norway resented being quoted as an aspirational model for Scotland.
71

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 08:58:33
#69 A 'True' Scot

It appears to me the Lowland Scots had, by 1745, heartily embraced the commercial opportunities opened up to them by what was the then English Empire. They were too busy making dosh, turning Scotland from a poverty-stricken backwater (so poor it could put a significant proportion of the national wealth in ONE strong box)into a significant player in the Enlightenment and the coming Industrial Revolution. I know it's an inconvenient truth and doesn't suit your warped belief in English oppression, but do try not to revise history. Meanwhile, how to pay for a crucial piece of natinal infrastructure.....
72

Edward,

06/01/2009 09:06:29
One rule for England and another for Scotland - Gordon Brown is having billions broght forward from future budgets in England to finance capital projects in England. But the Scottish Government are not allowed to do the same. Why is this?
Perhaps its more to do with Gordon Brown and the Labour party being so anti SNP that any cooperation which they claim to want to do is just hot air
Labour are pathetic!
73

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:06:41
75

Yes no doubt many things appear to you.
Do you also see dead people?

You post a personal supposition and opinion and then call it an inconvenient truth? time to change your account to Draco is an moron.
If its an inconvenient truth then present the evidence of your supposition or else refer to it as your inconvenient theory.
74

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:08:53
73

So can you give us exact numbers in Scotland who supported the "Rebellion" to those who opposed it then?
relative of course to the population at the time? or is it all supposition and theory again posing as fact?
75

,

06/01/2009 09:09:51
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Reason:
76

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:11:13
73

Of course if the Rebellion wasnt wide spread in Scotland then General Cumberlands actions after Culloden probably resulted in the deaths of thousands of loyalists eh?
77

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:14:12
78-A True Scot.-Charlies' fight was for the English crown,and was rediculed abroad for having a sign above his door denoting this.
78

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:15:27
81

The English crown? then why was the Stone of Destiny required to crown a King of England?
79

,

06/01/2009 09:17:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
80

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:19:17
81

Perhaps a new name such as Warden Still born would be more appropriate?
81

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:19:30
80-A True Scot.-Most of these deaths were at the hands of fellow scots.

With many of them also at the hands of clans who switched sides after the battle.

Remember there were more scots on the side of cumberland than on charlie's.
82

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 09:20:27
#80 A 'True' Scot

Please relate to me any evidence of oppressive reprisals (yes, horrific and barbaric, but that was how they were seen at the time) outside the Highland heartland of the rebellion. That's the only indication of how widespread support for the rebellion was and how numerous your 'loyalists'. You can't, because they didn't happen. You're a very silly person.
83

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:23:37
82-A True Scot.-Do you not realise the stone was used as a sign of supremacy. Nothing more, nothing less.
84

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:25:02
true scot - if you had a choice, would you be a one car man or a four car?
85

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:29:03
87

Its documented fact that "Butcher Cumberland" went on an ethnic cleansing spree after Culloden all over the highlands particularly in the areas lived in by clans designated as Jacobite but of course not many of the folk in the highlands had "rebel" tattooed across their foreheads which was damned inconvenient for Cumberlands forces so they were forced to just assume any poor cuunnt they came across was fair game including of course women and children in fact especially women and children.
Now tell me that isnt true and prove yer just a tossser.
86

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:29:37
84-A True Scot.-I will have to give you one of my parking tickets for illegally parking your brain in a disabled parking space. Sorry my mistake your brain had just cause.
87

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:30:14
88

Aye still making it up as you go along eh? the world according to still born. Alternative history in the making you read it here first folks.
88

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:31:03
89

If you had a choice would you no prefer to be anybody else?
89

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:32:58
91

You have parking tickets for your brain?
90

Miss H,

06/01/2009 09:32:58
If there is a dispute it has been manufactured by Labour. David Whitton was completely out of his depth on Newsnight last night. He stuck to the PFI/PPP mantra despite the fact that Yvette Cooper's letter acknowldedges that using PFI would not solve the budgeting issue the Treasury has identified.

Scottish Labour still does not seem to understand that PFI is a dead duck.
91

Miss H,

06/01/2009 09:35:08
86 It's not a loan! Good God it is people like you who are actually responsible for Scottish nationalism do you realise that?

The Treasury does not 'loan' money to Scottish taxpayers - we loan money to them.
92

David MacVicar,

web 06/01/2009 09:36:34
56 I agree it was not technically Genocide but it clearly was sustained ethnic cleansing as it is now recognised and the pattern persisted over 100s of years from early 18C to late 19C and fits the modern description very well, especially forced eviction and depopulation. There were many atrocities and the bulk of the actions impacted not the fighting highlanders but the general population in the North and South of Scotland, the young, the old and the infirm.

What do you mean by 'our' history? I take it you mean British history and the atrocities perpetrated by landed british nobles?

Or are you meaning Scottish history since this was predominately orchestrated by Scottish born Landlords and clan chiefs, all of whom were at time times well integrated in the ennobled British establishment and considered themselves North british.

Or are you meaning English history since you are English (or is this an identity crises day again for you?) since there were also plenty of English involved especially in organising the Militias and the many 'factors' actually implementing the clearances were brought in from England (buy the North British nobles)?

IMO none of this can be put at the door of the English or Scots in general but can easily and firmly be put at the British establishment, the legacy of which continues.

In Britain this serious of embarrassments is still officially a non atrocity, it is looked upon as necessary changes to modernise the Highlands and Lowlands, all be it by over zealous landlords.
Until very recently they were events little taught at all. The history that was taught was best left obfuscated, romanticised and analysed through the faux prism of British historians, especially of Scottish North Brit ilk. Only the contemporary analysis of domestic and foreign historians have given us a more accurate account.
93

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:37:25
85

"Remember there were more scots on the side of cumberland than on charlie's."

Oh right and not doubt you have a list of all the names?
94

David MacVicar,

Web 06/01/2009 09:39:54
Sorry, my above post was meant for 54 Grahamski
95

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:42:15
85

[edit] List of clans that joined the Pretender
Eventually the following clans "came out" to join the Pretender: Clan Cameron, Clan Chisholm, Clan Drummond, Clan Farquharson, Clan Grant of Glenmoriston, Clan Hay, Clan MacLea, Clan MacBain, Clan MacColl, Clan MacDonald of Clan Ranald, Clan MacDonald of Glencoe, Clan MacDonnell of Glengarry, Clan MacDonald of Keppoch, Clan Macfie, Clan MacGillivray, Clan MacGregor, Clan MacInnes, Clan MacKintosh, Clan MacIver, Clan Mackinnon, Clan Maclachlan, Clan MacLaren, Clan MacNeil of Barra, Clan Macpherson, Clan Menzies, Clan Morrison, Clan Ogilvy, Clan Oliphant, Clan Robertson, Clan Stewart of Appin.

Furthermore, the regiment of Atholl Highlanders was mostly made up of members of Clan Murray, Clan Fergusson, and Clan Stewart of Atholl. Significant numbers of men from Clan Elphinstone, Clan Forbes, Clan Keith, Clan MacIntyre, Clan MacKenzie, Clan MacLean, Clan MacLeod of MacLeod, Clan MacLeod of Lewis, Clan MacTavish, Clan MacMillan, Clan Maxwell, Clan Ramsay, and Clan Wemyss also joined the Jacobite army.

The Clan Fraser also joined the pretender and fought at Culloden. Many men of the Clan Gordon joined the Jacobites led by the chief's brother Lord Lewis Gordon. Although the chief of Clan Gordon claimed to support the British government his brother raised two regiments in support of the Jacobites.

Some chieftains who were trying or planning to raise their clan for the Pretender were stopped or even imprisoned, notably Sir James Campbell of Auchnabreck and Alexander MacDougall of Dunollie, who were stopped from raising Clan Campbell of Auchnabreck and Clan MacDougall by Campbell of Argyll, and Sir Hector MacLean and Dugald MacTavish of Dunardry, who would have raised Clan MacLean and Clan MacTavish had they not been imprisoned by the government
96

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:45:11
85

Common misconceptions about the Jacobites and the '45
It was not a war between Highlanders and Lowlanders. Many major Highland clans supported the British government including: Clan Sutherland, Clan Sinclair, Clan Campbell, Clan MacKay, Clan Munro, Clan Ross, Clan Gunn, Clan MacLeod, Clan Grant of Freuchie and others, along with Scottish Lowlands regiments. On the Jacobite side, Scottish Episcopalians provided over half of their forces in Britain, and although Dundee's rising in 1689 came mostly from the western Highlands, in later risings Episcopalians came roughly equally from the north-east Scottish Lowlands north of the River Tay and from the Highland clans. In the '45 the Jacobite forces were joined by about 250 English Episcopalians, and at Culloden by 800 men from the Écossais Royaux (Royal Scots) and Irish Brigade Regiments of the French army.

Kind of phuqqees up your theory regarding loyalties eh?
97

Alan Reid,

Hong Kong 06/01/2009 09:46:52
More attemps from the scum in london to try and smear the SNP.
98

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:49:43
98-A True Scot.-You are really ignorant of documented history of the '45 aren't you.
How is this for you, while living in europe charlie boy was being spied on by his whole household. Britain knew charlie was on his way before he left his house.
99

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:50:04
86

So refusing to release Scottish taxes to an elected Scottish government in order to fund Scottish infrastucture projects should be seen as a union benefit then and good government from Westminster?
and our part in this union is what exactly?
and when I say "our part" I mean us Scots not you English.
100

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:52:53
104

Who cares? you certainly dont otherwise you wouldnt be on here making up a load of garbage on what you probably see as a wind up. You probably think nobody realises you post as Rufus, grahamski etc.
Self deluded idiot.
101

Warden An' All, Reborn,

06/01/2009 09:56:34
102-true scot-Not a misconception held by me may I add.
102

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 09:57:30
107

Several months of atocities in order to subdue a predominantly loyalist country?
Obviously nobody told King George how loyal Scotland was to his crown.
103

The Tin Man,

06/01/2009 10:00:49
Apparently, Swinney didn't even inform the treasury that he intended to pay for a new bridge with a 20-year loan from the UK taxpayer, until two weeks before he announced in Holyrood that the bridge was going ahead.

Prior planning prevents poor performance, Mr Swinney.

When he made the announcement, he was nowhere near securing the funding.

We are being governed by idiots.

Shocking.
104

Darien,

Panama 06/01/2009 10:02:55
Everyone can see that Westminster's Gordon Brown is now shafting his own Fife backyard as well as Scotland over this bridge. The SNP Scottish Government will make hay over this. Well done again New Labour, both barrels fired straight into the foot this time.

The British Nationalists cannot bring themselves to work with Scottish Nationalists. The New Labour British Nationalist hatred (of Scots self determinists) runs too deep for that. British Nationalism and Scottish Nationalism are polar extremes; you simply cannot have both. But they are not opposites; British Nationalism depends on supressing a Scottish State, whereas a Scottish State has no desire to suppress other parts of the UK of GB&NI.

This also means those claiming to be both 'British & Scottish' are a fraud; the conditions to sustain such a claim do not exist. There is no such thing as British Nationality and Scottish Nationality. Ultimately we are either one or the other.
105

The Tin Man,

06/01/2009 10:03:51
Meanwhile, Scotsman posters twitter about Hanoverian history on a comments thread about bridge funding....
106

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 10:04:17
97
When I wrote 'our' history I meant Scottish history, however British history will do just as well.
107

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:04:50
114

The bridge replacement project has been ongoing for years since it was first recognised that the existing bridge had serious corrosion issues.

You know smee its pointless changing your account if your just going to post in the same idiotic meaningless way you might as well leave a thumb print.
108

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:06:20
117

And you just twitter under different accounts including one twittering about Hanoverian history on a bridge funding thread.
109

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 10:06:25
115
'There is no such thing as British Nationality and Scottish Nationality.'
Nonsense, I am Scottish and British.
110

The Tin Man,

06/01/2009 10:10:49
#120 AT Scot

As a Marxist SNP supporter, you are a political irelevence.

Happy New Year, by the way.
111

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:11:34
121

And when we obtain independence what will you be then?
112

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 10:12:45
121
When? Oh you are awful.....I'll still be Scottish and British, so will you.
113

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:13:44
122

I am not marxist I am socialist by nature I bet there is even a bit of a true socialist in you as well. There is in most people its a common natural state.
Happy New year.
114

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:15:00
124

No what you will be is confused and self deluded I will remain what I always have been a true Scottish socialist.
115

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 06/01/2009 10:17:30
There are a still a number of options for funding the bridge and eventuially a face-saving arrangement will be found.

I am more concerned about the design of the bridge. We don't need yet another narrow Forth crossing. A full 6-lane motorway crossing (with hard shoulder) linking the M90 to the rest of Scotland's motorways is essential. There are already two motorway crossings over the Severn Estuary, so let's not settle for another second rate crossing, just because it is in Scotland. I appreciate the Scottish government's efforts to reduce costs, but we need a decent bridge that will cope. It is about time Scotland's motorway network was completed - we lack way behind other european countries.
116

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:19:54
124

I noticed this rag labels Tommy Sherridan as a Scottish socialist when the man doesnt even know the meaning of the word if he did he wouldnt be a politician for a start. All the same they use the expression Scottish socialist as a sign of plague which shows what this piece of sh.t rag really is.
A mouthpiece for the self serving anti social minority and so very representative of the British establishment.
117

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 06/01/2009 10:20:09
Apologies for the spelling and poor grammar (I should have checked it), but I repeat my point:

We need a motorway crossing over the Forth.
118

Miss H,

06/01/2009 10:22:25
114 Just keep it coming with the 'loan' stuff.

You are doing the SNP's job for them.
119

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 10:22:30
126
Yes, this all very sad. I'm sure we could all cut and paste things like this from throughout our history.
120

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:26:10


136. Yes yes, remember that you denied that the British State was involved with Slavery Grahamski


That was breathtaking ignorance on your part wasn't it?


121

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:28:07
136

It would be difficult to cut and paste different versions of history though wouldnt it? if that was possible it would no longer be history but just another novel.
122

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 10:29:02
whoa whats with the censorship?
123

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:31:31


Only unionists could be punching the air that the Treasury will force the Scottish Government to make drastic cuts for this bridge.

Where was their commentary when for five years the previous exectuvie flip flopped about.

David Whitton finally let the cat out the bag yesterday.

Scottish Labour would buy this bridge through PPP.

So there we have it.

Likely cost of a PPP Bridge £9-12BILLION based on a 30 year loan period, and typical PPP profit percentages.....

That's compared to £2Billion over 20 year period as proposed by the SNP

Why are Labour sooooo keen to saddle our children with our debt, don't they understand that they've sold them down the river with their spending binges and that we're going to be paying higher taxation for years to come for sub standard infrastructure and school buildings.

Why are Labour ideological wedded to a Tory funding mechanism that benifits the private sector at the expense of the taxpayer?

124

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 10:41:28
125
'Yes yes, remember that you denied that the British State was involved with Slavery Grahamski'
Er, no.
125

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:42:00
70 SMee

Here's a SICK joke:

Q: How much does an PPP bridge cost?

A: £9-12BILLION except that we can't ever admit that whilst Labour are in office.



Who'd have ever thought we'd see a Labour Government punishing Scotland like this, forcing cuts and promoting inefficient expensive private finance deals on us for what is in all likelihood one of the most important infrastructure projects in BRITAIN.


I wonder what the unionists position would be if this was a Scottish labour Government in Holyrood being treated the same.?






126

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:46:22


129. Oh and remember those rants against Gaelic, it's language and culture.

127

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:51:17
72 Smee

That's the same Jeremy Purvis that trifled over how to fund the Forth Road Bridge for FIVE long years as a junior ministreial aide is it?

Aide to the great Tavish Scott?

Jees, do you really want to get into Tavish past form on transport projects and how NOT to do them.

Is anyone surprised that the Liberals have nosedived in Scottish Politics, they didn't register in Glasgow East or Glenrothesbut wait until we get one in the North East of Scotland, they are going to get decimated.

128

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 10:52:00
131
No, but I do remember saying I was against public money financing a dead language.....but again you demonstrate the skill you share with Jeffrey Archer, that of inaccurate precis....
129

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 06/01/2009 10:52:43
Who says that we need a new bridge anyway? I've not seen any convincing evidence that there is anything wrong with the existing bridge, which was built for the princely sum of £30million back in 1963. The San Francisco bridge was built a long time before the Forth Bridge - in a more severe environment (ore or less permanent fog and Pacific gales) and it has survived perfectly well. The design and technology is very similar though the Forth Bridge - being much younger - muct have used improved materials and designs. Demanding £2billion because someone claims to have heard 'pinging' inside the hidden bridge cables is similar alarmism to the 'global warming' hysterics claiming the Arctic is melting and the poor wee polar bears are all drowning. Take a look out your window anytime in the last ten days and you will see we are in the grip of an icy winter - as is the entire Northern Hemisphere.

Finally - the economic crisis will take care of much of the bridge traffic for the next 5 years.
130

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:54:19
103. Yes yes Charles Edward was 'living' in France, on Holiday or political exile ?

Cromwell wasn't ALL bad....... we don't talk about him much now.
131

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 10:55:36

131. A Dead Language

Well there we have it, spoken like a true ignoramus




132

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 10:58:48
This story is boring, the facts are not in doubt. PFI is a dead duck, the SFT is not up and running, front loaded accelerated spending is the only real current option to fund this bridge, Westminster are vetoing it. That's it.
133

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 11:01:47
139
Aye, the SNP's plans have been seen to be nothing but smoke and mirrors and when they got found out they used the only thing they've got - blame England. How much longer before that becomes boring?
134

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:04:57
135

Original English is a dead language or havent you noticed the "Americanisation" of it?
135

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:05:15
Stop being silly Graham. The Treasury are ensuring we are not on a level playing field with England, who do you think we should blame ? Mickey Mouse ? They are apparently content to rehsape fiscal policy for them, but not for us. Who's picking the fight then, it's obvious to a blind man.
136

Miss H,

06/01/2009 11:05:55
140 - Wrong. The Forth Road crossing will be built. If the SNP can get a deal with the Treasury the cost will be spread over 20 years. If not the cost will be spread over 3 years. But it will be built.

If Labour were in power it would not be built.

That's the difference between the SNP and Labour.
137

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:06:20
135

In fact many people refer to it as American and not English at all give it another 100 years or so and everybody will refer to it as American.
138

Miss H,

06/01/2009 11:07:06
136 - Everyone says we need a new crossing.
139

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 11:07:22
141
Oh, go away, silly boy...isn't there a moon somewhere you should be howling at?
140

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 11:08:24
142
The English? Dear god, Observer, I had really thought you'd be above this kind of thing........
141

GB's Dairy,

06/01/2009 11:10:12
135 Grahamski

What is a dead language?
142

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 11:11:06
148
A language nobody speaks in their daily lives.
143

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:13:14
147 I said England Grahamski not the English don't put inaccurate words in my mouth
144

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:14:17

147. Grahamski

Oh that's right I forgot, don't mention nationalists to Graham

An inconvenient truth best swept under the carpet.......

When will the UK be giving up it's sovereignty Graham?
145

alanh,

06/01/2009 11:14:28
#72 sm

come up with how much the bridge would cost under even the best PFI yet?
146

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:17:57
148

I think he was referring to the language used by the voices in his head.
147

David MacVicar,

Web 06/01/2009 11:18:21
121 Grahamski "Nonsense, I am Scottish and British."

Grahamski, sometimes you post as Scottish, sometimes as English and always British but you seriously have an identity issue.
Does it depend on the story or what day it is?

Anyway you can have differnt cultural backgrounds or traits but only one Natioanlity in the accepted sense. My passport tells me I am British only and that is all officially. However I certainly consider myself as Scottish nationality. British is just a political state of different nationalities and a geographic area.

You need to qualify what you mean by Scottish and British. When you say Scottish do you mean in a National sense or a regional sense eg like a Yorkshireman, in which case Scottish is just a regional distinction for you, or the region where you live or whatever? If its in a National sense then your nationality is Scottish and British represnts just a group of distinct Nationalities hence a distinct British Nationality does not really exist. To clarify, we are also European and Europe, like Britain, is a collection of Nationalities in a geographic area with some similarities.

If you are saying you are Both Nationally Scottish and Nationally British then you are deluded and given your previous history as posting under different National guises this is not really a surpise.
148

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 11:18:24
150
Sorry you're quite right.
So, let me say this:
'we are not on a level playing field with England', dear god, Observer, I'd rather hoped you would be above this kind of stuff....what about Wales?
149

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 11:19:25
154
Where do you get the idea I'm English?
150

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 11:20:39
142 Observer
You should find out about the details before you make comments such as yours.

The capital restructuring being undertaken by the Treasury to fund projects involves the restructuring of planned budgets in this and the next two financial years. The Scottish govt has done exactly the same thing by announcing that it was "bringing forward" house building projects as it too has planned budgets for this and the next two financial years. So it is carrying out th same procedures.

This is an entirely different case from comitting money from unplanned budgets over 20 years.
151

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:20:52
If this forth bridge project looks like becomming a nationialist icon then there is a good chance Labour may insist its built over the Tay in the same manner as they refused to allow the reopening of the original Scottish Parliament.
152

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:22:13
158

But the planning of the bridge replacement project was put in place during the last administration in Scotland.
153

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:23:42

153 True Scot

Yes it belies Grahamski's proto fascist tendencies.

One Nation, One Party, One Language, One Grahamski

Difference is bad, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile




Yet here he is the , the self proclaimed defender of socialist ideology decrying the SNP for wanting to spread the cost of a key infrastructure project for Scotland over 20 years with minimal interest in the Scottish public and taxpayers benefit.

Only on the Scotsman can you see such socialists zealots line up with Tory Scotland haters to sign PPP contracts that would increase Scotland already considerable PPP debt's by over 30%.....

They don't seem to understand that we are paying for this binge every year to the tune of £800MILLION in interest alone, far in excess of what these projects 's are worth.....

It's just a really sad indication of where the Labour Movement is today.

154

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:23:43
157

Ah so the Scottish government plans to borrow it from the Scottish tax payer after the Scottish tax payer has loaned it to the UK government?
155

GB's Dairy,

06/01/2009 11:23:56
Smee and the Tin Man

I like it! I like it! Scotland looking for a loan of their own money!!!! I wish I'd thought of that or, better still, Scotland looks "an advance on pocket money" lol!

I think Grahamski needs a hand as he's struggling and apparently is confusing Gaelic with Latin.

Still, he's on-line with the benefits of PFI/PPP, which, apart from saving the world, was my legacy to millions of tax-payers.

Under PPP every-one's a winner. My friends in big business make enormous profits and in return will give my loyalists lucrative director-ships. I will take the credit for building up the infa-structure, apart from North Britain, and my blinkered followers will hail my "prudence".

Well, not every-one's a winner as taxes will have to be raised to ensure my short-term popularity but as long as the sheep follow the Labour party who really cares about them.

Word to the wise - don't be tempted by Nats to breathe a word about the true cost of PFI/PPP!
156

alanh,

06/01/2009 11:25:05
#157 sm

have you come up with how much the bridge would cost even with the best PFI terms yet sm753,?
157

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:25:33
155 I don't know about Wales, are they trying to build a bridge using frontloaded capital and being knocked back ?
158

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:26:54
157 No PFI/PPP are long term loans not forwarding capital spending.

This money is taxpayers money, how can we get a loan from our on money that's a daft thing to write.

John Swinney does get under your skin I've noticed, it must be difficult for a labour apologist unionist to see a person who knows what a balance sheet looks like.
159

David MacVicar,

web 06/01/2009 11:27:51
156 Grahamski,

From your own words in older posts on this site. I already posted a link in the past, I am not doing it again. Just google under Garhamski and English. Either you are very confused or someone else is also posting under your alias.
160

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:28:06
161

Ah yes I forgot about his "socialist" credentials which includes supporting council tax, privatisation, illegal wars, the abolishing of the 10p tax rate etc while at the same time complaining about the abolition of student fees, prescription charges, Toll charges etc. In fact anything specifically designed to wind up any unwary nat poster.
161

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:28:19
157 smee


Not quite smee.

If you haven't noticed, Scotland is already funded by means of a GRANT

The SNP's plan is to bring forward money from those future grants and re profile them so that they are reduced in future over a twenty year period.

It isn't technically borrowing, the UK may need to borrow to fund it now but what's £2BILLION these days?





Can you answer me this, did Brown borrow the £12BILLION for the VAT Cut against 'future budgets'?

Yes or No will suffice.




162

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:29:16
Grahamski I would suggest to look at the history of your own country and gasp and feel ashamed at how one of our native languages has been actively destroyed by the education and political leadership in Scotland.
163

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:31:49
169 Wardog maybe it has escaped Mr Smee and the treasury that PFI/PPP and the money borrowed to fuel the stimulus is all based on future taxation.
164

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:32:13
167

Thats quite possible these so called unionist accounts are probably run on a 24/7 shift basis.
165

GB's Dairy,

06/01/2009 11:32:45
157 smee

I did warn you - don't be tempted by such as Alanh!
166

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 11:33:51
165 Observer
"I don't know about Wales, are they trying to build a bridge using frontloaded capital and being knocked back"

No - they have to pay a toll of £4.30 to cross the new Severn Bridge. So the bridge was built on the basis of future revenue streams as is the Crossrail project in London.

This could be an option for the new Forth Road Bridge but the Scottish govt have ruled out tolls.
167

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:34:06
158 Do you seriously suggest that Governments do not commit to any projects which extend beyond two years repayment ?
168

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:34:53

171 Tormod

Exactly.

One rule for the Uk another for Scotland.

There is absolutely no defence of the Treasury's position and when the cost comparison of the two mechanisms become apparent and put in the context of Brown's boring against future budgets, the public will see it for the politically inspired obstruction that it is.

Yvette Copper " we can't borrow against future budgets as yet unset".....

That really is a howler, I suspect that she'll be reprimanded over that.


169

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:35:57
174 Err yes they have ruled out tolls and yer point is caller ?
170

ricky40,

06/01/2009 11:35:58
163 GB's Diary

Yes, I like it as well! Are you Union Is Best or Brownlee?
171

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:36:36
169 Wardog I also saw Dave Whitton on newsnight last night, so as the finance spokesman he didn't have any figures on the cost of a PPP bridge and he wanted to move money into the training budget again no figures, he said that it was up to the SG to provide this info.

Could you imagine if it was the SNP doing that the absolute roasting they would get, thank god they are not in power in Scotland.
172

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:38:09
Hey Ugly

I see the UK government have proposed raiding the lottery charity funds to help fund the olympics do you think thats an option available to the Scottish Government for the bridge project?
173

David MacVicar,

web 06/01/2009 11:38:55
Ugly George,

At the end of the day this row is purely political and being used and abused by both sides. However the facts are evident that:
a) Scotland is suffering from years of underinvestment and neglect while in parallel the south has had Billions of investment and is getting plenty more.
b) Scotland has had little investment during decades of either surging oil revenues or Britain booming as a whole or both.
c) The funding issue and arguments can easily be avoided and non obfuscated through fiscal control. The logical, open and accountable solution the unionists are terrified of.

The endless financial arguments can continue ONLY because they were thought up by, used by and obfuscated by Unionists for their benifit and Calmans preliminary report even went as far as admitting it!
174

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:39:38
174 UG that bridge has been funded using PPP and the tolls are being used to payback that money, surely it would be more than common sense for the treasury to issue a bond as they have a better rating and lower interest payments that the PPP service provider.

It's nuts paying more for something than you need too nuts.
175

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:40:00
Ugly

It seems to me the UK government can use any source it likes for funding while at the same time obstructing the same options to the Scottish Government eh?
176

subrosa,

06/01/2009 11:40:14
# 108

You're right, we are being governed by idiots. Gordon Brown et al have bankrupted the British Isles and they're in charge of the hard earned cash the Scots have to send to London.

What's wrong with John Swinney informing the Treasury 2 weeks before he informed Parliament? Can't see what your point is really. If he'd told Parliament the bridge was going ahead before he contacted the treasury, then I could understand your point.
177

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:40:56

179. Tormod

Yup, He clearly stated that Scottish labour would use PPP.

He couldn't however give us a price for that option but accepted that it would be more expensive and that he couldn't discount future tolls..

Aye he was useless as usual, labour only deal in mantra's these days...... there is absolutely nothing behind their criticisms, they have NO alternatives except the proven failures of their past.

Glen Campbell was out of his depth as usual.

No worries though, Brewer will be back and if Campbell can allude to some common sense then Brewer will rip Labour apart on this.

It's a no win situation for Labour.


178

brownlie,

06/01/2009 11:41:13
156 Grahamski

As most Scots know that communities in Scotland and Canada speak Gaelic as an every-day language we might suspect that you are possibly English.

178 ricky
Union is Best and I work in the Luton Labour Shed and have no connection with that poster.
179

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:42:46
184 I think John is used to a team that can do things in real time, it's seems the treasury needs 6 months notice.
180

Scheme,

06/01/2009 11:45:20
The Proclaimers song “Cap in Hand” says it all...

It’s a disgrace that the Scottish government has to go begging to Westminster for funding.
181

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 11:45:34
175 Observer
Yes they do but you are making a different point now. You were saying that the Treasury was making different budget practices for Scotland than it does for the rest of the UK. My response was to show that this is not the case.
182

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:45:37

181. Indeed

Calman has a corker here which really clearly illustrates the impossible straightjacket that is the current settlement, we cannot have a situation whereby the elected government of this nation are forced to use means which were clearly disapproved of by the majority of the Scottish people.

Personally I think a Scottish HMRC should be setup ASAP to deal with a whole variety of issues and to ensure that ALL tax revenues raised in Scotland remain here.

This would inevitably lead to a federal system whereby Scotland pays a grant to the UK for shared resources such as armed forces etc......

A third questions in the referendum?







183

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 11:45:43
185 Wardog I agree if Labour were to look at history they would see that this strategy has actually speeded up the clamour for more self determination and full independence.

Maybe Gordon should have read and written more than labour party history in his PHD.
184

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 11:46:36
176 Wardog
"One rule for the Uk another for Scotland."

Please read post 158.
185

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:46:48
188. Great Call

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mcWSpPkf78s

followed by sunshine on leith!
186

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:50:07
189

My point is the UK government doesnt work under the contraints it itself places on the Scottish government if we had a Liebour government in Scotland would the funding be available then do you think?
187

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:50:12
192 Ugly

Was the £12BILLION VAT cut taken from future budgets?

Yes or No will suffice?

188

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:51:14
189 No it doesn't.
189

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:52:22

194. A True Scot

I actually think the treasury would and have treated a Scottish labour Administration with the same contempt, the only difference is that we wouldn't have heard about it.

Why else did Labour never in 8 years of knowing that bridge needed replacing ever set-out how they'd fund a new bridge.

EIGHT YEARS of inaction and subservience.

The Scottish people spoke in May 2007

190

Ugly George,

06/01/2009 11:53:02
188 Scheme
Please look at the whole picture. We all know that the Scottish govt manages to find the funds for measures that are not available in the rest of the UK - no university fees, free care for the elderly and (most pertinently) no bridge tolls. When asked about this the SNP govt and Alex Salmond state that those are their policies.

Fair enough but surely that has to work both ways. If they chose to finance measures that the rest of the UK does not have then they can hardly complain if money is tight for other things.
191

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:54:35
189 ugly

Is the £250BILLION Trident II System being budgeted from future budgets as yet undetermined?


Yes or No will suffice?
192

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 11:56:01

198 Ugly

Your simply saying that Barnet is unfair.

Fine, go ahead and change it and reduce the Scottish Block Grant further.

Independence is coming for a that


193

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:56:11
197

Possibly on the other hand the bridge has to be replaced even Zanu Liebour agree on that. The difference being of course the money would have been clawed back using massive council tax increaces and bridge tolls.
194

Ugly George,

06/01/2009 11:57:05
195 Wardog
Yes of course it was but once again you are not comparing like with like.
195

brownlie,

06/01/2009 11:59:02
72 sm753

Surely you must agree that the Scottish Government should have explored every avenue to find out the best value for tax-payers's money rather than rush head-long into the discredited PPP?
196

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 11:59:36
202 You are completely missing the point, the UK Govt use front loaded capital spend but are forbidding the SG from doing the same. However you dress it up that is what is happening.
197

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 11:59:40
198

"Please look at the whole picture. We all know that the Scottish govt manages to find the funds for measures that are not available in the rest of the UK"

Such as the Edinburgh trams for example?

The problem is the money isnt tight it is being withheld by a beligerant and hostile UK government.
Like I said the UK government can use any source it likes to raise immediate cash but wont allow a Scottish government the same scope. dont you think this is a perfect example as to why a Scottish government should have full fiscal autonomy?
198

Ugly George,

06/01/2009 12:01:25
200 Wardog
"and reduce the Scottish Block Grant further."

Please go and look at the Scotttish govt's own website for budgets(actual and planned) from 2002/03 to 2010/11. The increase over this period is approx 70%. Where do you get the impression that the block grant has been reduced?
199

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 12:04:09
198 A true scot
I have no objections to the Scottish Govt having more financial powers. I was talking about the situation as it is now.
200

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:05:29
202

How can you compare like for like when the imbalance of power is colossal. The UK government are trying to give the SNP the responisibilty to run Scotland without releasing the necessary resources to do so.
Scotland is fed a pittance of its own income in order to just survive not florish which didnt come under question before as the same parties ran both countries.
Now we finally have a politcal body in power which is questioning the old order of things and highlighting the blatent deficiencies of Scotland within the union and its only going to get worse until we go it alone.
201

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:07:46
207

You have no objection to giving the Scottish govt more fiscal powers but you object to them asking for an advance on money due?
Would you object to Scotland keeping it own share of North Sea oil revenue to fund infrastructure projects?
202

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 12:08:04

206. Ugly

The increase over 2007 -2011 has been slashed from the previous eight years of devolution, everyone accepts that including the Treasury..

Taking the Departmental Expenditure Limit for Scotland from 2002-03, the real terms increase in 2003-04 was 11.5 per cent. It was 4.7 per cent in 2006-07. Even in 2007-08, it was 3.4 per cent. For the next three years, the real growth for essential public services will be only 0.5 per cent in 2008-09, 1.6 per cent in 2009-10 and 2.3 per cent in 2010-11 –an average of 1.4 per cent.

The SNP also inherited the full £800MILLION ANNUAL PFI Interest repayment debt from Labour........ borrowing against future budget's?



203

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:11:08
206

Stop spinning like a dervish Ugly the annual increace of the barnett formula didnt keep up with the rate of inflation or cost of living so in that respect alone it decreaced significantly at the same time as massive increaces in oil and gas prices.
Why dont you show us the true extent of the Barnett formula increace from 2006 to today relative to inflation?
204

David MacVicar,

web 06/01/2009 12:16:42
190 Wardog,

Yes, paying into the UK for shared services is the mature, cost effective, sensible and accountable way to handle devolution. Unfortunately the openness and accountable elements are why it is a non starter for the 2 main unionist parties.

3rd referendum question? Difficult to say because nobody has qualified and nobody will likely debate or inform the public what Dev MAX or fiscal control would actually encompass in detail.

Personally I also think that since Energy is so vital to the Scottish Economy that Fiscal and Energy control should go hand in hand as a minimum and the British state is not going to that unless forced by all out independence imo.

Major constitutional change is certainly coming, the unionists know it as are just trying to minimise the loss of control, its now just a question of how much control and when.
205

Rodster,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 12:18:13

God forbid anyone should call you English Grahamski. You are 100% pure subservient ,Uncle Tom Quisling self loathing Scot.
You bleieve you are too stupid ,too poor and too weak to stand on your own two feet.
You adore Westminster and see it as your better .
You as we say in Glasgow," gie me the dry boak " not a dead language very descriptive
206

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 12:21:56
210 Wardog
What you are saying now is that the rate of increase has been reduced. That is entirely different from saying that the grant has been reduced. You said that the increase in "real terms" was 11.5% in 2003/04. Do you think that this type of figure is sustainable over the years?
207

Ugly George,

06/01/2009 12:24:58
206 A True Scot.
Look at the figures produced by Wardog in post 210. He is describing "real" increases - i.e. above inflation. Are you saying that his figures are wrong?
208

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:30:03
215

Its Zanu Liebour and Tory policy to decreace the amount given to Scotland via the Barnett formula in fact they are proposing to scrap the formula altogether. Both parties have stated openly Scotland receives more from public funding than it needs.

Those figures are not showing above inflation increaces at all George now your back to blatently lying out of your teeth. I wondered how many posts it would take.
What do you think the true inflation figure has been over the last 5 years or so? and not the doctored figured excluding house price increaces?
209

Scheme,

06/01/2009 12:32:07
198 Ugly George – “Please look at the whole picture.”

The whole picture shows that Westminster determines Scottish funding, meaning that they are in effect still governing Scotland. The constitutional arrangement states that Westminster “remains sovereign”, regardless of who controls Holyrood.

Do you really think that such a set-up benefits Scotland/Holyrood?
210

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:32:11
214

Why not we more than pay for it by our national annual contribution to the UK treasury it is after all our own money.
211

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:33:39
214

So I ask you again do you think the Scottish government should be allowed to use Scotlands share of North sea oil revenue in order to pay for infrastructure projects?
212

Ugly George,

06/01/2009 12:36:31
216 A true Scot
"Those figures are not showing above inflation increaces at all George now your back to blatently lying out of your teeth"

Why do you accuse me of lying. These are the figures produced by Wardog and he described the increases as being in "real" terms i.e. above inflation. If you have a problem with them then take it up with him.
213

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:36:37
214

Did the so called annual budgeting in the Barnett formula derived funding keep pace with the increace in North sea oil revenue?
214

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 12:38:15
213
Oh my dear lord but aren't you just the nostril-flared, bulging-eyed, incoherent loon?
Having said that I suspect you're fairly typical of the average cybernat, with all their pent up fury and anti-English bigotry. Does it offend you that SNP leader Alex Salmond does his level best to disassociate himself from the kind of views and language spouted by you and other psycho nats?
215

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:38:31
220

The lie is in your own interpretation of the figures in your post not wardogs.
216

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 12:40:46
218/219 A True Scot

According to research done by the Taxpayers Alliance the total amount of oil/gas revenues has only been greater than the extra allocation given to Scotland through the Barnett formula in 5 of the last 23 years. Are they lying as well?
217

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:43:02
Ugly

http://www.moneyweek.com/news-and-charts/economics/dont-believe-the-inflation-myths.aspx
218

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:44:36
224

Show me.
219

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 12:45:58
222 You do realise that the policy that Labour are following is almost designed to cause anti-English feeling ? A co-incidence ? I doubt it.
220

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 12:46:20



214 Read my original post again, a straightforward apology will do.

And while you'll crawling back to your corner, can you confirm the likely cost of a PPP Forth Road Bridge, ball park like.
221

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 12:47:36
217 Scheme
I don't think that the present situation is satisfactory and I would agree that the Scottish parliament should have more responsibility for raising as well as spending money.

However they do have the power to decide how the block grant is spent in the present circumstances. As such, they have to decide on priorities just as anybody else does. They apparently feel that abolishing bridge tolls was a priority and now are having trouble funding the new bridge. They cannot put all the blame on somebody else if they cannot meet every desired policy outcome.
222

Rodster,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 12:48:15
Grahamski if you are so offended sue me I would love to see a cowardly unionist like you exposed in public.
I maintain I have described you perfectly ,and you and your ilk have been the curse of Scotland for centuries .
A parcel of rogues in a nation , bought and sold for English Gold
223

brownlie,

06/01/2009 12:49:45
222 Grahamski

Are you talking to yourself? I did not see any evidence of anti-English bigotry in the posting that you refer to.
224

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:51:26
229

Before you show me this research by the non UK government affiliated sourses tell me what extra powers you think should be given to the Scottish parliament?
Whats the point of the Scottish government having the power to raise income tax nationally when it ends up in Westminsters coffers and we still only get the block grant? how very Zanu Liebour of you.
225

Darien,

Panama 06/01/2009 12:51:27
#114 Grahamski: "I am Scottish and British."

You are a British National and Scottish what exactly?

British Nationalists really cannot answer this question. That's because they know that being a British Nationalist suppresses the possibility for any Scottish nationality. Being part of Britain means Scottish nationality does not exist. That also explains why no other country on this earth recognises Scotland as a country. Being part of Britain means Scotland is unrecognisable as it does not exist as a country. Being part of Britain makes Scotland an irrelevance. Only independence therefore makes Scotland recognisable and relevant.

Being British is not being Scottish. In fact it is the opposite, as being British prevents one from being Scottish; being British insists on that outcome. Scots need to ask themselves, do they want to be recognised and relevant, or unrecogised and irrelevant? Being British means only the latter - that Scots are unrecognised and irrelevant. Westminster and New Labour are proving this by the day.
226

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 12:52:42
231 He always calls people anti English, it's very ironic he supports a Party who seems to be encouraging that sentiment.
227

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 12:53:13
227
Observer,
Behave! The problem here isn't Labour's policy - it is the SNP's lack of serious economic ideas. They are finding out the hard way that their ludicrous pie-in-the-sky promises are worthless. The real tragedy is that Scotland will pay for it and the nats will continue to do the one thing they do best: play the blame game.
Apparently meetings between civil servants and SNP ministers are described as blame-storming sessions by the civil servants...listen out for more leaks in the weeks and months to come....
228

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 12:53:18
229

Until a Scottish government is allowed to use all of its own resourses for its own policies then they have every right to complain and blame the lack of said resources on the body taking them.
229

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 12:54:40
228 Wardog
What is there to apologise for. Your original post said "reduce the Scottish block grant further"

Then you have said that the increase has not been as large as in previous years but it has still increased. So by your own admission it has been increased and not reduced. Your statements are contradictory - a smaller increase is not a reduction as everybody appreciates.
230

Ugly George,

06/01/2009 12:57:46
232 A true Scot
"Whats the point of the Scottish government having the power to raise income tax nationally when it ends up in Westminsters coffers and we still only get the block grant? how very Zanu Liebour of you."

Why are you accusing me of position I have not mentioned or supported. Please respond to what I say, not what you imagine I say.
231

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 12:59:52
235 OK I will try and behave but I was semi-serious, this decision if the Treasury stick by it will foster resentment.
232

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:00:00
Come on Ugly havent you set up the web page yet which shows the research by this non government affiliated source showing us a link between the barnett formula and North sea oil revenue?

Or maybe you can instead explain how giving the Scottish government more powers to raise income tax is going to help them raise money when income tax ends up in the UK treasury?
233

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:00:47


229. So it's Clear

Rather than simply re profile the Scottish Block Grant over the next 20 years, Labour and it's supporters want us to use PPP for 30 years, effectively paying twice for the bridge and then some AND re-introduce Tolls on one of Scotland';s key arterial routes to pay for this expenditure.

Is it any wonder the UK is in such a shoite hole at the moment with this kind of logic.
234

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:00:51
233
Stop wittering. I'm British and Scottish - your lack of understanding doesn't stop me being both. It merely highlights your extremist and hardline views. You are welcome to them.
You should have the good grace however, to acknowledge another advantage of living in a modern democracy like the UK is being allowed to believe whatever you please without being arrested or executed.
You should thank your wee tartan god that you don't live under one of these horrible despotic regimes which so scar our world....
235

Bele's bane,

Scotland 06/01/2009 13:01:06
Freedom for Scotland.

Let us end this English tyranny and take charge of our own affairs and reclaim our oilwells!
236

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:03:31
238

229
"I don't think that the present situation is satisfactory and I would agree that the Scottish parliament should have more responsibility for raising as well as spending money."

So I ask you again

"Whats the point of the Scottish government having the power to raise income tax nationally when it ends up in Westminsters coffers and we still only get the block grant? how very Zanu Liebour of you."

237

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:06:03

242. Grahamski

"....horrible despotic regimes which so scar our world....":

The ones we haven't invaded yet .......

Zimbabwe
Sudan
North Korea
Iran

Resistance is indeed futile


238

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:09:32
Hello Ugly you still there? where is this non government affiliated research into the link between the Barnett formula and North sea oil revenue? havent you finished setting up the web page to link to yet?
239

Brian Hill,

06/01/2009 13:09:43
How any Labour politician can, with any degree of honesty, justify these PFI figures below (as supplied by TRAQUIR #40...) is beyond me. It seems they will do anything to preserve Labour's power base in Scotland no matter what the cost is t the Scottish people in terms of cash and lost opportunities.

Read Traquir's figures below to remind yourself of the actual cost of London Labour's PFI:

"Scam / capital invested by companies / projected cash return

New Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh / £20m / £228m
County Hospital, Hereford / £9m / £92m
Hairmyres Hospital, East Kilbride / £8m / £145m
Council offices and car park, Perth / £2m / £31m
Eleven schools, Highland / £2m / £12m
James Watt College, Kilwinning / 0.7m / £9m
TOTAL / £42m / £517m"

see - tinyurl.com/7l77qc
tinyurl.com/4g929h
tinyurl.com/4drrc6
240

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:10:11
242 Grahamski Everyman

"I'm British and Scottish ..."

What is Scotland Graham?
241

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:11:38
245
There are plenty more than the ones you mention...
242

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:12:53
247

Because theyre raking in corporation taxation as well as the extra income taxation to come when we have to pay the bill.
243

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:13:39
250

Including the UK.
244

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:13:40
248
Oh go on, tell us....
245

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:14:04

249. Grahamski

Aye, I forgot Labour's 'UK'

Anymore you think we should highlight
246

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:15:31

253. Grahamski

As someone you purports to be Scottish AND British, I thought you might use this dual 'nationality' to help us understand what Scotland is.

Is it a Nation?


247

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:15:41
So again you prove to be full of sh.t Ugly no surprises there then. spiel your bullsh.t ignore questions regarding it then phhuqq off as usual to another acccount.
248

brownlie,

06/01/2009 13:16:19
235 Grahamski

"Look out for more leaks in the weeks and months to come ..."

I think you can expect a visit from Brown's Anti-terrorist "Leak" Police.

What was that you said at #242 "..thank your tartan god that you don't live under those horrible despotic regimes..." - well done! irony and comedy in one sentence.
249

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:16:30
My goodness but they're out early today. Check this out for 100% chuntering mental breakdown material:
'it's called the Britnatz-Liebour Utopia of Westmidden'
What shortbread tin does Mr Salmond keep these doozies in?
They'll be painting their faces and flashing their bahookeys next...
250

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:17:50

ODD ONE OUT COMPETITION

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Scotland
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom
251

A True Scot.,

06/01/2009 13:18:26
A block grant in exchange for our GDP and we should be grateful. Where else would put up with this?
252

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:19:11
255
What do you mean dual nationality? Why would my nationality help you understand where you live?
253

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:21:05
259
The UK - the only one with over 500 years of continuous freedom.
254

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:22:09


257. Aye our wee Grahamski is a phoney

A man that rails against 'natonalism' but defines himself by it.

A man that bemoans Thatcherism yet revels in PPP Fat Cat Profits

A man that denigrates other cultures whilst telling us that the UK is uniquely fair and open to multiculturalism

A man who talks of fighting poverty yet is happy to hand over BILLIONS to fat cats and make the ordinary man on the street pay

A truly slithering belly to the ground creature







255

brownlie,

06/01/2009 13:23:58
258 Grahamski

"..flashing their bahookeys next..."

You can but hope!!
256

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:24:55

262. I was hoping that since you seem to be able to balance TWO national identities that your conception of these nationalities must be pecuarily strong.

Instead you seem to be suggesting that nationality is simply a postcode lottery.

Why do we need the british state?


257

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:25:38
265
Hiya Wardooggy,
Jings, but it's not like you to resort to the personal attack and smear is it?
258

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:26:41
267
In it's component parts my lovely, do try and keep up....
259

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:27:39
268
I was hoping that you had manged to get past your infantile name-calling - looks like we're both going to be disappointed, eh?
260

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:28:43

264.

"...The UK - the only one with over 500 years of continuous freedom....."

I'm afraid your wrong Graham but you answer does highlight an number of issues

Let's not talk about Cromwell or indeed the 200 year period of slavery and subjugation of people's around the world. otherwise know as the British Empire.

Let's not talk about unelected monarchs or indeed modern democracy at all.

Let's rejoice in british Nationalist jingosim.




FFS Graham




261

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:29:27
269
Was that wee piece of nat homophobia sponsored by the bus tycoon and notorious reactionary or merely gratuitous?
262

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:29:47


270. It hurts most when it's true comrade
263

brownlie,

06/01/2009 13:30:20
265 Wardog

For the first time in living memory, I think Grahamski at #270 is correct. Please don't try breaking his monopoly.
264

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:30:21

274 LOL
265

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:31:55
273
Drat, can I have another go?
Is it the UK - the only country there to have successfully repelled the nazis?
266

brownlie,

06/01/2009 13:32:25
275 Grahamski

No - it was the Hinjuda Brothers!
267

Scheme,

06/01/2009 13:35:35
247 & 40

It’s beyond belief that Scots continue to blindly vote for labour, regardless of the stunts they pull. The “labour wull look eftir us” mentality is still alive and kicking (see Glenrothes).

Back to the bridge.... I predict that there will eventually be some sort of compromise and it will somehow be funded and built. Labour will then tell us how lucky we are and state that an independent Scotland could never have afforded it; and the “labour wull look eftir us” mob will baaah in agreement.
268

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:35:56

279 Grahamski

Again your wrong and do a great disservice to the servicemen and women and those that stood up against fascist forces of the following nations in the list.

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Scotland
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden

Try again.

269

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:39:52

283. Don't worry Scheme, Grahamski as usual is doing a wonderful recruiting job for the unionists.....

Has everybody noticed that he's the only one here......

Obviously forgot to flip his moniker today
270

Richard,

West Lothian 06/01/2009 13:39:52
Come on wee Grahamski answer Wardogs question.

Which is the odd one out???

HAHAHAHA!
271

brownlie,

06/01/2009 13:41:05
284 Wardog

Just a stab in the dark but could it be Cyprus, Ireland, Malta and Scotland where lands and properties were forcibly taken over with the help of the British army?
272

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 13:41:11
284
I salute the brave men and women from all over the globe who stood up to the nazis and would not impugn them or their sacrifice. The fact that the UK stood resolutely against such a repugnant regime should be a matter of pride.
Unfortunately, the blinkered and narrow-minded nats can't quite bring themselves to even say that....deary me.
273

Rodster,

Glasgow / Dubai 06/01/2009 13:42:07
wardog you forgot that other great monument to British Imperialism
The Concentration Camp ,that is why the Boers love the Anglo saxons so much in South Africa in fact they prefer and respect the Zulu more
274

Richard,

Broxburn 06/01/2009 13:45:55
Grahamski,
Falkirk

But everybody knows the Scots, English, Welsh and Irish fought fascism in W.W.2.
275

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:46:28


ODD ONE OUT COMPETITION

Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Scotland
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom


The winner will receive a copy of

"Citizenship: A Very Short Introduction "

276

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:47:49

287 Brownlie

Very very close but I'm afraid that isn't the answer, you do receive a gold start for the first educated guess however
277

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:50:52
288. Grahamski "I Salute"

".....The fact that the UK stood resolutely against such a repugnant regime should be a matter of pride....."

Nothing to do with the English Channel and the 51st Highland Regiment holding back the German Army at Dunkirk then......

It's such a shame that you and other unionist would sell that dream for freedom and democracy down the river so readily to be able to wave a flag that stands for empire and subjugation of other nations amongst other despicable acts. throughout history.

278

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:52:05

Grahamski

Book recommendation although you probably already have i

"The Glory of Being Britons: Civic Unionism in Nineteenth-Century Belfast"
279

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 13:55:20
289. Rodstar.... indeed, the history of British aggression, empire and subjugation shines like a very bright like for all to see.

The United States, Australia, Canada, Ireland, India and the Commonwealth all chose with their feet to 'not be glorious britons'.

Why would they choose to leave such a shining example of fairness, commonality and social progression.?

Look what they gave up.
280

Shave,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 13:56:53
#279 Grahamski

Malta repelled the Nazis (though wasn't independent until 1964).
281

lulach mac gille coemgain,

06/01/2009 13:59:49
The real question is why anybody north of the forth would want to go to Loth land and Englandburgh anyway - the highlands are self sufficient in food produce and water anyway!
282

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 14:05:36

297 No thanks , it's be the whole of Scotland or nothing
283

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 14:17:24
293
Ach, don't be such a silly, self-hating Brit. There's plenty to be proud of in being British...
284

Miss H,

06/01/2009 14:18:00
Grayhamski cries All hail the UK - the only one with over 500 years of continuous freedom.

Someone needs to go back to school!
285

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 14:18:28

299 Grahamski

List them then, be proud of who you are comrade
286

brownlie,

06/01/2009 14:19:44
293 Wardog

Sorry to go off topic but an old boy from the Hebrides was telling me about an islander who was captured with the 51st Division. He managed to escape and stole a boat in France and made his way back home. Ironically, after the war he was prosecuted for being in possession of whiskey from the SS Politician!
287

Grahamski,

Falkirk 06/01/2009 14:20:56
300
We've already done that, keep up.
301
You're the list nerd, I've nothing to be ashamed of being British.
288

Brian Hill,

06/01/2009 14:25:43
#283 Scheme raised Glenrothes in his post, so in an attempt to veer this 'debate' away from the banal (Grahamski) to something more intriguing.

The Glenrothes Westminster seat was very similar to the seat won by Tricia Marwick in 2007 yet despite the SNP having a blistering run in Government which included removing the tolls into and out of Fife.

Can anyone even begin to explain why Labour not only won that seat but won it by a jaw dropping 7000+ votes, which had everyone gasping, politicians and pundits alike.



289

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/01/2009 14:34:39
#297, lulath.

You are falling for the oldest Imperialist trick in the book, and the Brits are the masters.

Leave a country divided against itself.

Hi Grahamski,

I see that no light has penetrated your Falkirk bunker yet. Fortunately, there's still time. However, your schitzophrenia seems to be getting worse.
290

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/01/2009 14:41:00
#304, Brian Hill.

Perhaps the best place to pose that question is Downing St.
291

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 14:44:28
302. Browlie

Superb.

292

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 14:48:47

304. Apparently there were an additional 5000 postal votes requested during the recent election, I suspect that Labour mobilised the dead, half living and redundant to come out and support 'the working man's party'.

The SNP still made very good gains despite Labour's fear campaigning atrocious personal attack, Peter wasn't the right candidate however and his service in the council was used against him despite Lindsay Roy's patent incompetence.

Maybe Lindsay can explain to those that voted for him how the privatisation of the Post Office is progressing and why Labour are trying to scupper a new Forth Road Bridge.
293

Hugh Roscombe,

06/01/2009 14:52:19
Odd one out

Is it something to do with cheese?
294

,

06/01/2009 14:52:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
295

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 14:54:06

302. Browline

The 51st Division remembered, a great wee article

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/non-fiction/article4086337.ece
296

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 14:57:30
309. Hugh

Hmmmm, kindof but no.

The prize remains unclaimed
297

Hugh Roscombe,

06/01/2009 14:59:47
312

... as in Scotland's just a wee cheese that can't make its own decisions about funding?
298

Hugh Roscombe,

06/01/2009 15:00:16
OK. Who got banned? The numbers are off again.
299

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 15:13:08

313 Hugh

Cheese n a that'

Comrade Brown has let it be known that his favourite dish is an unsubtle peasant recipe containing reheated cabbage and potatoes.

He proclaimed....

"...No one believes more firmly than me, Comrade Broon that all animals are equal.

I would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves.

But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?....."


The Grahamski Variety Grazers looked up a 'bleeted' in the unison.

Comrade Broon went on....

"....We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organization of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink the milk and eat the cheese........"

The docile grazers gasped and gawped.... they looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which........

Finally Broon squealed...

".....Comrades, do you know who is responsible for this? Do you know the enemy who has come in the night and scuppered OUR bridge? SALMOND!.....'



300

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:05:35
316 frothing at the mouth a wee bit laddie??

It's not a loan it's our money, how can you loan yourself money?

Your pathological hatred of John and Alex is clouding your sight sm753.

Ah Jeremy Purvis that well know and decisive politician.
301

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:13:17
317 Yes we know it was the 51st HD so you have never mistyped something on a thread then?

I believe Wardog was pointing out that the 51st were part of the rear guard action attached to the French Army to allow the BEF to evacuate at Dunkirk.
302

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:15:20
317 Quote "Totally wrong idea, as the surrender you are thinking of was tragic but irrelevant and of no wider significance."

Tell that to the men who were engaged in that action.
303

brownlie,

06/01/2009 16:17:35
317 sm753

Rubbish! of no real significance, indeed - their actions were substantially of much more significance than any of your postings will ever be.
304

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 16:18:19
317 Smee

Thankyou for for pointing out my mistake

I see the point is entirely lost on you however.
305

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 16:19:42

316 Smee

How do you know if there was any interest or not?

I suspect the repayments will be with itnerest but at a much lower rate than what PPP would cost.

Are you really this stupid or are you just putting on a show?


306

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:21:53
SM753 Purchasing finance through a corporate bond PPP is more expensive than a treasury issued bond so why do it?
307

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/01/2009 16:22:23
#316, sm753.

Did you, as a wee laddie, never ask yer daddy for an advance on yer pocket money?
Did he require it paid back with interest?

And, do you remember when you started to earn your own money, and could spend it as you saw fit?

It was a great feeling, wasn't it? Being able to work on your own priorities.

Why would any self-respecting person/Nation expect to continue to be forever a child?
308

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 16:23:50
324.

Hold on a minute - Are you saying that 51st Highland Division wasn't at Dunkirk?

309

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:27:27
324 Come on so the action that the 51st were engaged in was not to slow down the German advance to allow the BEF to fall back to Dunkirk? You Sure?
310

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 16:27:49

Tormod, your knowledge is wasted on the wee eedjit.

Smee has been ridden like a bike by most of the posters on this site over the last few days, he';s now resorted to spelling mistakes, mistypes and fine points of history whilst totally denigrating brave means actions in the process.

Can unionism stoop any lower?

311

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 16:31:25

Smee

My my smee, expert in all thing military are we?

Do you like dressing up as rommel?

312

brownlie,

06/01/2009 16:37:26
328 sm753

Swinney is not asking for preferential treatment - he is asking for equity of treatment.

The sum involved is only a fraction of the money spent, against the wishes of the majority of the country, by Blair/Brown in facilitating the murder of innocent Iraqis and dragging the country into the dark ages.
313

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:37:33
328 Does Yorkshire have a parliament? No

What about Essex? No

Scotland is not a "Small" part laddie, we are not a department but a country.

John Swinney is asking for more capital cash to be forward Of which I and other Scots have contributed. Yes he is committing a future Scots Parliament to these terms.

So I see so as a taxpayer I am to supply money to pay for the PFI/PPP repayments in other parts of the isles for the rest of my working life and Scotland and thats OK but not for this?
314

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:45:16
331 / 332 Are you sure that the 51st HD were not in action before and during the Dunkirk evacuation, I mean I would hate you to commit the same mistake as our debate on the 45's as in fitted for not with. I seem to remember you swore blind Phalanx was fitted to the new 45?
315

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:49:58
337 Who is this spanners you keep on writing about?

Aye Scottish GDP nice link, however I am trying to see why you would post a link about GDP when we are discussing capital finance.

So tell me has Alistair Darling not taken out a loan against future tax revenues to enable him to issue a large government bond, does he know what the balance sheet will look like in 10-15 years.

Is that not setting a commitment ahead of the future fiscal budget?
316

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 16:53:09
339 You think he should ''have set cash aside''.

You really are a clown. What infrastructure of that magnitude has ever been paid for by ''cash set aside''.

In the absence of prudential borrowing - which is how you fund capital projects - it is PFI or bust. Swinney came up with an alternative, one which the Treasury don't object to in principle in England, but are objecting to in Scotland.

Your position is ridiculous, you've had three days to get it right and are still talking nonsense.

317

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 16:54:31
339 Now now stop frothing at the mouth over John, you seem to like Mrs Balls think about her.

Quote "So? I know you feel strongly about that, but it is simply not germane to this issue. It is past; done; irrelevant."

Oh dear!
318

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/01/2009 16:58:46
sm753.

You are patently aff yer heid.

1. 51st(Highland)Division was deployed to defend the Dunkirk evacuation, between 29 May & 4 June. They fact that it was not, physically, on the beaches does not deny the reason for their deployment. In that period they lost almost a Brigade, and by the time of the Fall of Paris, 22 June, had lost more than 2 Brigades.

2. You level of reasoning is seriously lacking if you consider that the slowing the German advance on the remnants of the BEF evacuating at Dunkirk was inconsequential.

3. If you consider that the loss of a Brigade is inconsequential, I hope you never have to come face to face with a veteran member of the 51st (Highland) Division, TA.
319

Observer,,

06/01/2009 16:58:53
339 Let's get it right, if it has to be funded over two to three years that is going to have a significant effect on other public spending commitments, at a time when the Treasury is yelling full steam ahead to public spending to offset the recession. What they are saying to the Scottish government is in direct contradiction to heir own economic policy down South.

That's why Swinney is right.
320

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:00:13
341 PFI/PPP ring any bells is this not committing a future parliament to pay these bills? Yes / no?

John is asking for more of Scotland's capital money now and less in the future.

Yes we are a nation, I asked you in the past if you were a Scot and you said yes, I am not so sure as your language when describing Scotland is strangely distant.
321

Brian Hill,

06/01/2009 17:00:33
# 308 Wardog. I agree Peter was the wrong candidate, I suspect he was almost unknown outside Glenrothes. Not a major problem for a dynamic, high viz personality which Peter unfortunately wasn't.

But also the SNP did a poor job of combating Labour's attacks, half truths and disinformation, especially over the issue of increased costs for care.

Also a casual drive through the constituency showed almost no evidence of an election at all, unlike Glasgow East where every lamp post had a poster which defined the boundaries of the constituency. Glenrothes had very little of this.

Labour also won the window poster war, not difficult as even the SNP strongholds had little or no posters.

I think SNP complacency played a part resulting in a below par campaign, as well as those thousands of extra Labour votes which came from who knows where.

Re the unionist trolls on these threads. Surely if they were ignored they would be unable to highjack serious topics with their continuous flow of drivel?
322

frank mcbride,

lusitania 06/01/2009 17:02:23
#341, sm753.

You clearly are mad.

What, in the name of God, is the current UK Govt. doing???????????????
323

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:02:44
Smee

Dear oh Dear Smee..... your floundering around like a half naked peraly queen ina dark attic looking for their union jack teddy bear.

"....What is going on elsewhere is the front-loading of spending within the current agreed 3-year spending settlement....."


Was the £12BILLION VAT cut set out in the current 3 year spending settlement?

324

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:07:38
350. Brian Hill

Hi Brian, I wasn't in Glenrothes for the campaign but from what I saw, the SNP wrote off the staunch miner areas and focused on t Glenrothes itself.

I'm not the first to admit, that for Labour to increase their vote by 7000 votes is almost unprecedented, especially during such circumstances and against a similar increase in SNP support.

I can only suggest that the votes were not young voters but elderly ones that haven't voted in recent years and wanting to send a message to the Fife Council following weeks of negative campaigning by London Labour.

Given the current pension crisis, forth road bridge games and the privatisation of the post office.

HAS Lindsay Roy delivered anything?
325

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:08:40
SM753 John is not asking for other parts of the UK's money he is asking for more of the capital spend that would come to Scotland anyway to be brought forward, to enable to build the bridge.

And the subsequent capital budget will be reduced until parity. I thought that would make you happy.
326

Observer,,

Glasgow 06/01/2009 17:09:28
341 ''No Parliament can bind it's successors'' oh deary deary me. That's right, when we vote Labour out we can rip up the PFI bill too can't we. Ha ha ha.
327

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:10:07
341. Smee

"...He can't. No Parliament can bind its successors....."


£200BILLION PFI Debts for the next 30 Years
£250BILLION Trident II System
£500BILLION Banking Bailout



328

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:12:07


355. Smee really has flowne the cuckoo's nest on this won.

He get's knocked from pillar to post on these comments pages day in day out but still doggedly holds on to the nurses frock and the mantra 'british is best, we still have the empire'.....

The man is glutton for punishment and ridicule.

You luv it smee

329

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:12:29
I think Brian Taylor hit the nail on the head the problem is that we have a group of Scots who see Scotland as a nation, a country in it's own right and want a parliament to deliver the priorities and needs of the country, on the other we have a group that see Scotland as an annoying spending department that makes to many waves that annoys several folk in la la land.
330

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:22:25
SM753 a quote from the 51st HD webpage:-

quote "After a period of indecision, when the next task for the Division was unclear, a 300 mile road and rail move brought the Division to a position overlooking the river Bresle near Abbeville. As the B.E.F. retired on Dunkirk the Division was to fight with the French Army as part of the French IX Corps and initially to hold a line north west of Abbeville to the coast. The Division was thinly stretched over 23 miles, holding a line of the Somme from Erondelle to the sea, and without a mobile reserve. On the 4th June the attack on the Abbeville bridgehead began. Despite heroic attempts to stem the flood of German troops the Division was forced to slowly fall back to the Bresle. Meanwhile the German success elsewhere cut the Division's supply line to Rouen and orders were given to fall back to a line on the Béthune."

331

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:28:34


360. Bethune, isn't that like 40 miles or so from Dunkirk

"...It was nowhere near Dunkirk...."

Smee, why did you dig this hole for yourself?

332

alanh,

ek 06/01/2009 17:31:59
#316 sm
welcome back

have you managed to find out how much the bridge would cost using PFI yet?
333

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:32:47
361 Yes I do mean it, so the money the UK government is spending for things like the bank bailouts and the 12 billion vat reduction are coming from where exactly? London / south east taxpayers or bonds?

The UK government is borrowing money to spend on infrastructure projects are they not? They are borrowing money against future tax receipts from us.

John is asking that some of this capital is used to build the bridge and offset by future reductions in capital spend. Exactly what the UK government are planning to do in our parts of the UK.

What are the shiny free new things would equal 2 billion pounds?
334

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:47:37
SM753 it was your statements that said that the 51st were not involved in the Dunkirk retreat, not Wardogs
335

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:53:03

366 Dancing on a Pinhead more like

I believe Grahamski's original observations was that the British were the only country to repell the nazi's......

I made the point that the English Channel and the 51st Highland Division played a crucial roles in that....

Your argument is that the 51st weren't at Dunkirk ? or are you saying that they played no part in repelling the nazi's?

Really Smee, haven't you got more to do than demonstrate your inability to engage in serious discussion?




336

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 17:54:20
sm753 / Tormod / Wardog

If you three can't play quietly, mummy's going to come up there and slap some legs. In the meantime, to shut you up, see if you can work out how many angels can dance on the end of a pin. First with the answer gets an ice lolly.
337

brownlie,

06/01/2009 17:55:18
339 sm753

Not germane to this issue?? Of course, it is germane to this issue as is where every single penny of income tax that we pay goes.

Ask anyone in Scotland, or indeed Britain, if money should be spent for the benefit of the country or spent on the murder of innocents and then come back with your statistics.
338

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 06/01/2009 17:56:27
#370 Wardog

Although that was spooky.
339

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:57:01
368. Smee isAlways Right

What's your estimate of the cost for a PPP Forth Road Bridge?

Closest BILLION?

Will it cost more than using UK Government Borrowing/Repayment?

What is the benefit of using PPP since it will no also be on the books as public expenditure?
340

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 17:58:00

373 Draco

Great Minds n all that'

341

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 17:58:31
368 Really that's a big boast, you weren't right about the 45's or the legal maritime delimiter. You said that quote :-

"Wrong place.

Totally wrong idea, as the surrender you are thinking of was tragic but irrelevant and of no wider significance."

Wardog did not say anything about the battle after Dunkirk, he said during Dunkirk. So you are saying that the the 51st before and during the evacuation were not involved in fighting with the Germans to enable the BEF to evacuate? That's your opinion?
342

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 06/01/2009 18:10:33
I am curious SM753 how do you know what Wardog was thinking about, I hate to judge but you seem to have jumped to a conclusion about what Wardog had written.
343

alanh,

ek 06/01/2009 18:35:29
#378 sm

have you found out how much the bridge would cost using even the best nmethod of PFI yet?
344

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 18:36:40


378 I don't sme is taking any further questions.

His logic has been shown to be completely flawed
345

alanh,

ek 06/01/2009 18:43:14
nope wardog he has run away from the question all day.

If he really is in favour of buiding the bridge using this method of payment, as are teh liebour party, I would have thought he/they would at least have a ball park figure.
It seems tho thats not the way he/they work tho
346

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 18:51:06

382 Less than SFT

You'll need to back that up Smee.....

Your becoming a bit of a laughing stock with your outlandish claims, and ill informed commentary. there areso many questions that you've failed miserably to answer over these last few years, I think most posters can only assume that your A) hiding something or b) genuinely don't know but are carrying on regardless.

Can you try to rectify your low standing by trying honestly to answer these questions, if you don't know just say so - we're all grownups here.




Why is Labour ideologically wed to PPP?

How much will a PPP Forth Road Bridge Cost? (the nearest Billion will do)

What benefit does PPP offer over Government Borrowing now that it's all 'on book'?

Why are Labour suggesting cuts to public spending as a way of raising cash for this key British Project, yet claiming to be progressing public spending to combat the recession?

Is the current PFI Debt 'taken from future budget's or not?

Is the £12BILLION VAT Party Frock Cut 'taken from future budget's or not?

Is the £500 Banks Bailout 'taken from future budget's or not?

Is the £250BILLION Trident Missle System 'taken from future budget's or not?
347

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 18:54:26

381. yes ye yes, can you answer the questions and decease from your terribly moronic history lesson on daily newspaper comment pages.

348

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 18:55:07


Unanswered Questions for Smee



Why is Labour ideologically wed to PPP?

How much will a PPP Forth Road Bridge Cost? (the nearest Billion will do)

What benefit does PPP offer over Government Borrowing now that it's all 'on book'?

Why are Labour suggesting cuts to public spending as a way of raising cash for this key British Project, yet claiming to be progressing public spending to combat the recession?

Is the current PFI Debt 'taken from future budget's or not?

Is the £12BILLION VAT Party Frock Cut 'taken from future budget's or not?

Is the £500 Banks Bailout 'taken from future budget's or not?

Is the £250BILLION Trident Missle System 'taken from future budget's or not?
349

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 19:04:30


Smee, smee, smee..........

http://tinyurl.com/5nbbrp



350

Masterpiece,

06/01/2009 19:40:25
Once more the people in the North of Scotland are being asked to subsidise the small number of car users living in the East-Central part of Scotland with huge sums of money for another Forth Bridge.

Yet time and time again we hear about how the good people of the Central Belt (and they are good) subsidise especially the North-East and The Highlands and Islands without end.
But wait a minute; these are the areas where nearly all the Oil and Gas and Whisky is to be found in Scotland. So who is subsidising who, be it in Scotland or the UK.
351

Darien,

Panama 06/01/2009 19:41:19
Another unanswered question for sm753:

British (national) and Scottish (what exactly?)

Please define the "what exactly".

Other British Nationalists are welcome to try this.
352

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/01/2009 19:59:32

Sm753

"...When does the money need to be spent?..."

2014/15 actually.

Why didn't Labour budget for this in 2006?

"Scottish Labour knows that a crossing across the Forth is vital to the entire economy of the East coast of Scotland. It is a critical transport and economic concern. Scottish Labour will build a replacement forth crossing and will use EMERGENCY legislation if necessary.

Scottish Labour will also remove all tolls on the Tay Bridge and for multiple-occupancy cars on the Forth Road Bridge"

Labour Manifesto May 2007

353

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

06/01/2009 20:02:11

"...Making the right decision on a replacement for the Forth Bridge is the most important transport task facing Scotland today. As a bottom line, we must be in a
position to give early go-ahead for a replacement crossing. We must do all we can to remove any risk of a period of closure, with the devastating effect that would have on the economy of Scotland and in particular the economy of the east coast and north of our country.

A new bridge remains an option, however we have concerns about both the construction cost and the time it will take from decision to delivery. In government we will do all we can to fast-track the planning and parliamentary process. And we will give full consideration to all options for the new crossing including a Forth Tunnel....."

SNP MANIFESTO MAY 2007


354

Faux Cul,

06/01/2009 21:02:53
No 10 Petition to get Broon to resign

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Fianance

Go for it!
355

Faux Cul,

06/01/2009 21:05:06
Brown is mad.

Get him sectioned
356

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 21:11:02
401. Smee

"...Did I miss anything?...."

Everything it would appear.

Labour's Budget runs from 2003-2007,, i.e. into the third term of the Scottish parliament..... You can't shout the SNP down for completing School's that Labour started but excuse them from not even putting together a rudimentary funding plan.

They had atleast four years Smee...... what were they doing?

How much 'free stuff' did Gordon brown 'give away' when he cut 2p of income tax Smee..... or don't you talk about that anymore.....

We know that he's given away £12.5BILLION of 'free stuff' in his VAT cut.

Anymore 'free stuff' that we should know about?






357

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 21:17:19


Smee, you really need to start facing the facts.

Your continual grievances can't be tolerated any loner, continually whining about SNP this, SNP that....... whilst defending the worst excesses of a UK Government completely out of control and binge spending OUR money on political vanity projects like VAT Cuts......... extolling us all to spend and blasting out rhateroic that thare will be yet postponing aircraft carriers, spending only £1BILLION of the 318BILLIOn stated, refusing to use Government Borrowing to front fund the Scottish Block Grant.......

It doesn't look very clever and I believes putting your beloved union in jeopardy.

How much longer do you think the people of Scotland will accept your obstruction and lying?

358

Faux Cul,

06/01/2009 21:28:49
Gordon Brown's epitaph must surely be

"The man with the unerring ability to snatch defeat from Victory."

Everything he touches he corrupts.
359

Wardog™,

06/01/2009 21:29:25

I'll give ye this shmee, I salute your indefatigability.

Your obstinance , obstruction and outright obfuscation is a wonder to behold.

Despite the hours of firm public roasting that you receive on these comments pages, your always pert and ready to drop anything to defend the unionist cause.

It doesn't seem to matter how hard you've been slapped about the night before, there you are, chipper and ready to lie yourself through the next session. in a sleazy effort to hide your lowly snivelling, belly dragging carcass around these topics.

Now let slip the Dogs of War
360

Hugh Roscombe,

06/01/2009 21:41:05
I'd LOVE to join in this but it'll be repeated here tomorrow - as it has for yonks.
361

Cynicus in Exile,

06/01/2009 21:42:30
Why did the chicken cross the bridge?
362

Cynicus in Exile,

06/01/2009 21:42:32
Why did the chicken cross the bridge?
363

Alan B,

06/01/2009 23:23:15
Seems labour have created another fight over nothing.

They also just demonstrate how pathetically weak the scottish parliament is.

The whole thing is becoming a bad joke.
364

Darien,

Panama 06/01/2009 23:44:02
#400 sm753:

'British (national) and Scottish (what exactly?)' ??

Take your time now. No hurry.
365

molu kikes,

nairobi ,. kenya 07/01/2009 10:12:01
the event of well get on abbey was amotion to be discussed in the english whitehall over the very spleen project to that of the best spanner bridge in the world ( the brooklyn bridge ),.,. its apocket issue for ahighlander at large when the session of upholstry is full of bragg from the house in general ,the olden SNP policy is just like an old rubberstump policy could not benefit the macbeth society at large and even the quango system of transparency wasnt adequate ,. but involment of these issue to the poodle of dickson fat boys will luminate the scotland at large ,.
366

molu kikes,

mandera kenya 07/01/2009 10:20:58
what the land of scone hunt on for haggis ,. there current haggist was developmental enviroment ,., ,..well have they for the battle of agincourt ,...............how come they do allow their issue to be discussed in holyrood state ,......do they have have talent and strength to face to the so called their foe on earth ,. the english lad in the wendy house ,,..., so far the firts boon to rule over the english house was bean pole from highlandr and jet contemporaraly remarks suggest that he is so far the worst prime minster ever the english had after incumbent and awhelk stall george three,.,.,.,
367

molu kikes,

basel 07/01/2009 10:23:54
are they rookies to the fund way to society ,.,, why are exchequeer ,.,.,.,... always rubble with ,.,,.,, are scottish levithian ,.,.,.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.,..,..,....,..,.
368

Alan Reid,

NZ 12/01/2009 03:53:19
1 Rufus,
Why should Scotland help pay for the London underground?
I always was lead to believe that London is an economic power house.
I mean 40 billion to fund a bloody underground!!! And thats only for seven years!!!

And Boris wants another 1.4 billion???!!!

“Lord Adonis said Transport for London, the mayor's transport authority, must fund the tube from a £40bn government grant that is supposed to cover its funding needs from 2010 to 2017. TfL argues that the funds are insufficient because they must cover the cost of running a heavily subsidised bus network and London's £7.7bn contribution to the Crossrail project, while paying for a tube upgrade programme in which the budget is escalating.
"TfL got a large injection of funds from the government. How it prioritises funding from that is a matter for TfL, not for us," said Lord Adonis. He added: "We don't accept that TfL does not have the money." The minister added that the funding settlement included a provision for higher-than-expected tube costs”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/04/boris-london

And the SNP wanted to have some of SCOTLAND’s money in advance to help spread the cost of the Forth Bridge, and Westminster said …………eh no!

Nice to be part of a fair and just Union.

I await your comment Rufus.

 

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