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Teachers call for all class sizes to be cut



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Published Date: 22 May 2008
TEACHERS' leaders yesterday urged ministers to cut class sizes across the board, as they warned there could be "problems" when pupils move from smaller classes into larger ones.
The SNP has pledged to cut to 18 the class sizes for primaries one to three.

But leaders of the teachers' union the Educational Institute of Scotland (EIS) argued smaller classes sizes needed to be continued throughout schools, otherwise youngste
rs could suffer.

The union is calling for class sizes to be brought down over time to a maximum of 20 in both primary and secondary schools.

David Drever, the EIS vice-president, said: "Where there is evidence of setback in attainment, it is where youngsters have moved from a small class size situation into a much a larger one.

"Obviously a time will come when these primary three youngsters who are sitting in a class of less than 18 will move potentially to a class of 30."

Helen Connor, the EIS vice-president elect, warned that when pupils moved from a small primary class into a much bigger one "you actually lose any benefit you have gained fairly quickly".

The union has submitted a petition, which was signed by almost 80,000 people, calling for "significant reductions" in class sizes over the four years of this parliament.

A paper submitted to MSPs from experts at SCRE Centre – an educational research centre at Glasgow University – stated that smaller classes "do seem to impact on pupils' attainment".

It added that such a policy was "costly" to implement and warned other factors, such as the quality of teaching, could also have an impact.

Ms Hyslop has said the pace of implementing the pledge to cut primary class sizes will vary across the country. However, she has insisted all 32 councils are expected to show "significant progress" towards the target.

Ronnie Smith, the EIS general secretary, stated: "I don't think there is any disagreement that reduced class sizes are desirable."



The full article contains 333 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 May 2008 10:06 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Teaching
 
1

Vincent-W,

22/05/2008 06:46:30
Are Drever and Connor on drugs? or are thy unfit to teach?

I'll explain for their benefit - if a class in P1 has 20 children then that class will have 20 in P2 and so on up the school. There will be a slight readjustment for people moving in and out the school. Equally if there were 40 kids in P1 they would have 40 in that class the next year.

Go back to school you two!!!!

There are better things to spend money on in education than reducing class sizes. In any case if we reduce class sizes then we'll need more classrooms (where's the money coming from?) and more teachers (they can barely place all the probationers they've got just now!)
2

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 22/05/2008 06:58:24
Meanwhile we are paying for teachers to be trained in large numbers; many, however, seem only to be getting their NQT year then not finding jobs. The Hootsmon reported about 900 unemployed in August / September last year. How many still have not found jobs ?

Then there'll be this year's crop of keen young teachers doing an NQT year. How many of them will not get jobs ?

Why should we pay to train teachers who don't get jobs and end up working in Scottish Widows ? This country is wasting millions.
3

Vincent-W,

22/05/2008 09:09:12
Prester - My understanding is the teachers (EIS) want smaller class sizes (= more teachers), but don't like having too many new teachers (old hands feel outnumbered). These two views appear to be contradictory. I think I must have picked up something wrong. Please someone correct me.


Q - What's the collective noun for a group of teachers?

A - A Moan.

this has been validated personally in depth studies observing many groups of teachers over many years.
4

Boy Wonder,

22/05/2008 09:13:44
Home schooling is the real answer.
5

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 22/05/2008 09:36:34
I don't know any old teachers who're resistant to having new blood in the profession. My understanding is that many of them would leave, making room for youong teachers - quite gladly if they could leave without any financial penalty. The union position, I don't know what that is.

Why not clear out those with a couple of years to go, especially any who're on conserved salaries or who are surplus to requirements ? That frees positions and allows a restructuring of the curriculum. Most of the older teachers with 30+ years have done their shift. I don't want to pay to train teachers who end up working in banks and insurance companies.

On the theme of collective nouns :

an avoidance of tax accountants
an irrelevance of politicians
6

Prester John,

Pots_n_Pans 22/05/2008 10:37:36
#1. The teachers are referring to the fact that classes can be amalgamated at various stages. There may be 3 classes on 20 in P1, P2 but they could be put into 2 classes of 30 from P3 onwards etc.

Collective nouns;

I think I prefer an incompetence of politicians
7

Vincent-W,

22/05/2008 11:08:54
#4 - for a very small minority maybe, but not as a main stream option.
8

Calum Crubag,

22/05/2008 12:37:17
#1 - not a teacher then Vincent? Guess you wouldn't know about it then.
9

Calum Crubag,

22/05/2008 12:40:14
Valuable teacher-pupil dialogue is obviously easier in smaller classes. Dialogic teaching has been proven to not only enlare the brain physically if started in early childhood but to lead to better attainment and cognition skills.

20 is an ideal number for classes. Vincent and the usual whingers usually have no experience of teaching. Would like to see him try.
10

Poetess50,

22/05/2008 13:18:11
#4 - certainly a viable option. My siblings home-schooled their children, and they're doing brilliantly, with the 2 older ones winning full scholarships to uni.
11

Vincent-W,

22/05/2008 13:39:58
Calum - I'm not a professional teacher, but I have many of my family and friends who are and I listen to what I hear. I regard them as experts in their field.

Also I have taught children in a wide variety of environments all my life, in 'Class' sizes from 2 to 200. So I've plenty of experience of teaching.

Complaining or protesting, especially in an annoying or persistent manner is your forte. My posts are largely constructive - go and troll elsewhere, preferably in gaelic.
12

Spicey,

Glasgow 22/05/2008 14:03:32
I went to private school, where the largest class i was ever in was 20 pupils, with most classes around 12, and the difference in the amount of work done was huge. I can only imagine how hard it is in a class of 30 pupils, many of whom dont want to be there.

I also think that the school day should be until 5, the extra time being used for sports and other extra curricular activities. Unfortunately i dont see this as feasible with the current funding.
13

Prester John,

Pots_n_pans 22/05/2008 14:08:23
#1
"and more teachers (they can barely place all the probationers they've got just now!)"

According to my friend who works in a local school, all NQTs are guaranteed places and there are few problems in placing them; the problem is that too many NQTs leave after their paid year and then don't find jobs.
14

Vincent-W,

22/05/2008 15:09:15
John, My understanding is that although places are gauranteed, Education departments are finding it quite difficult to get schools to take them. HT's want to have a balanced staff room or a staff room which meets the needs of their particular school and children. But it probably varies from school to school and from region to region.

Yes they'll all get placed but it's not easy.

On the issue of NQT's leaving, one of the issues is that colleges are loathe to fail unsuitable students. I know, I've heard of and seen some real shockers where HT's are encouraged to tone down negative reports.
15

albanman,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 17:16:13
Vincent: from what you say, I don't think you are in the teaching profession. NQTs are people who have passed the appropriate courses and assessments and are newly qualified TEACHERS (hence the NQT); they are not failed according to any reports from Heads or anyone else, so your statement is quite incorrect.

Like all teachers, NQTs are subject to official observations from someone who is normally the Principal Teacher of the department.

Perhaps you are thinking about student teachers who have 3 placements, and for whom reports and recommendations are made. Even then, these recommendations (pass, fail or conditional) are invariably made by PTs not the Head of school. The ulitimate decision is made by the authorities at Moray House in Edinburgh or Jordanhill in the West. True, some schools don't care to have NQTs simply because they often (but not always) require a significant amount of support, as would anyone new to a profession. Inevitably, there are some disciplines (e.g. English) where there appears to be more people training that positions available. Scottish NQTs always have the option of applying for positions in England or Wales, both of which recognise Scottish PGCE and appear to be in greater need.
16

Vincent-W,

22/05/2008 18:18:31
albanman -

1. read my post #11 I clearly state that I am not a professional teacher. I have never claimed to be and never will claim to be.

2. My statement is entirely correct - you have failed to read it properly, if you do you will realise I know fine well the difference between students and NQTs - the point I'm making is that there are far too many student teachers who pass their degree when they ought not to, only to leave shortly after or worse still teach generations of children badly - read it again s l o w l y.
17

Calum Crubag,

22/05/2008 19:57:31
Exactly, Vincent,you're NOT a teacher. Even though, it's not rocket science that smaller classes means more constructive teacher-pupil dialogue which means better learning. Go to any school or class with no more than 20 kids and you'll see it. See it done in Gaelic and it's even better, due to the cognitive benefits of bilingualism.

You're the one that came here whinging. Nisd, thall is tarraing.
18

Vincent-W,

23/05/2008 06:58:03
Calum - what my numerous teacher friends are telling me is that money could be better spent on other things than reducing class sizes. Believe it or not but there is a limited amount of money available.

Funnily enough not one person I've spoken to thinks spending on gaelic is anything other than throwing it away! so you can 'Nisd, thall is tarraing' all you like - very few are listening and even fewer understand what you are on about.

btw I don't deny it is probably a lovely language. Please please please please post all your efforts in gaelic!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19

Calum Crubag,

23/05/2008 12:45:09
We already know Vincent that you know little or FA about teaching or Gaelic.

I'd love you to go and find out though. Try a Gaelic-medium primary. The benefits are there to be seen and heard both in the class and in the far superior attainment of GME pupils.

Nisd, thall is ith do chac.
20

Vincent-W,

23/05/2008 13:06:02
Calum - Are these advantages you write of unique to Gaelic? Or would it be better to kill two birds with one stone and have them taught in two more widely spoken languages? Swahili or Maori for example.

Do you also think that my numerous teacher friends also know little about teaching, or are you the only person who knows anything?
21

Here Today HBOS Tomorrow,

26/05/2008 12:20:05
Hmm, interesting. Recent studies have shown that only when the class size drops to around 25 does it make any difference, there is then little if any different once it drops below 20. What is needed is more teachers, but more focused and needs based approaches, rather than the political mantra of 18 students per class. What should happen is that additional teaching and classes should be reflective of needs, for example additional very small classes for those with difficulties - without removing them entirely from the larger classes. Combined with extra emphasis on compulsory (or perhaps optional) classes for those with a real interest in particular subjects, so that perhaps they can get the grades they need for the required job or university. For example a number of people benefited a lot at my school when one teacher gave up her free time during the day to give us extra coaching.

The one size fits all method of teaching does not work, even if it does sound nice when used in a headline.

 

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