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The United States of Scotland

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Published Date: 01 December 2006
BARELY five million people live here, yet estimates of those claiming a Scottish identity range from 40 to 80 million. Whether they stayed in Scotland or left for whatever reason, being Scottish is something people clung to through the centuries. Some nationalities forsook their heritage when assimilating into new lands; the Scots never did. They successfully married integration into a new society with celebration of their native land.
Hardly a land exists without Scottish footfall and, in many, the footprint has been vital in creating the country. Scots took not just themselves and their families, their skills and talents, but their values and beliefs. Landing on foreign shores, they seldom forgot the land of their birth - and the sense of identity was passed on through the generations. The Scots have made their mark around the world.

Gone are the days when emigration was a one-way ticket with little chance of return. For many years, Scottish communities lived in isolation with no direct link to their homeland. Now Scotland is accessible to its people wherever they are. Communities scattered to every continent can now, if not reunite, remain in touch through new technology.

This book is about taking pride not just in the history of Scotland but the actions and exploits of Scottish people; recognising the history of the Scots is not simply in how they journeyed here but where they journeyed to; that their tale is not just in the Scotland they moulded but stories of other countries they helped create. It is about taking pride in our identity as much as our country; discovering our common past and considering our shared future.

There is a duty on the Parliament to reach out to our kinfolk, learn about their common past and work for a shared future. We have an opportunity to reverse the loss of talent and allow the Scottish diaspora to help guide Scotland's future path and maintain and develop Scottish values, culture and identity. The cost is minimal but the potential benefits substantial. It is time to make being Scottish an identity that traverses the world, uniting people with shared values and common culture - and to make being "Scottish" a global identity.

THE St Andrew's Society of the State of New York is arguably the most prestigious of all Scottish organisations in the United States - and possibly the world. It is a veritable Who's Who of power and influence, and at one time owned the land where the New York Stock Exchange sits.

Duncan Bruce, the 95th and current president of the society, was born in the US, but considers himself a proud Scot. "My two grandparents, Archibald Bruce and Mary McTavish Bruce, were from Argyll, one from Lochgilphead and one from Ardrishaig," he says. "They were married in 1890 in Philadelphia as soon as Mary got off the boat. Archibald had come over here and built a house as he was a carpenter. Both spoke Gaelic."

Bruce's maternal grandfather, James Grant Colley, came from Cambuslang. Bruce himself grew up near Pittsburgh, a city with Scottish connections - from Andrew Carnegie's steelworks to its many Presbyterian churches. Bruce is steeped in the Scottish diaspora and has painstakingly researched and written several books - including The Mark of the Scots and The Scottish 100 - which narrate the roles played by those born in Scotland or of Scots ethnicity in shaping not only the US, but also world events. When he started writing The Mark of the Scots, Scottish history was not placed in a modern context and the Scottish diaspora were not perceived as a contemporary community. Scotland was seen as a nation with a past but no present, and Scots who had departed were considered to have forfeited any right to a Scottish identity.

The website of the society details its birth: "On 19 November 1756, a small group of native-born Scots and Scottish Americans met in lower Manhattan to form what is now the oldest established charitable organisation in the Empire State". This was the formal successor to a Scots Society that had been formed in the city in 1744. That had followed the name and model of the Boston society and its purpose was twofold - to take care of Scots in need, and to have fun.

The core values remain sacrosanct. "We helped people get jobs," says Bruce. "If someone got off the boat with nothing in their pocket, we helped. If their partner died, we would help too."

It is not simply its vintage that marks out the society. Bruce says that, arguably, "the society has had a more distinguished membership for a longer period of time than any other small organisation in the US". That's quite a claim, but when the membership list is considered it is hard to argue. The website has a roll of honour that is a litany of American history and the influence continues to this day.

Three members signed the Declaration of Independence: Reverend John Witherspoon, a founder and president of what is now Princeton University; Philip Livingston, first president of the society and a founder of King's College (now Columbia University); and Lewis Morris. Other members have included author Washington Irving, the son of a Scottish fisherman, Andrew Carnegie and Alexander Graham Bell, and more recently Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM; Malcolm Forbes, publisher of Forbes magazine; and actor Cliff Robertson. The list is remarkable.

The American Revolution was a turbulent time for the society. As Bruce says: "They couldn't meet for ten years. It was completely divided between Tories and Patriots." Some members even left as a result of independence: John Loudon McAdam, or "Tar McAdam" as he is known after the invention of the road-covering named after him, was a member who returned to Scotland following the British defeat.

Robert Livingston, the 14th president of the society, administered the oath of office to George Washington as the first president of the USA. Livingston was born in the US into a proud Scottish family whose lineage could be traced back to Lord Livingston, a guardian of Mary Queen of Scots. His daughter was one of "the Four Marys" who travelled with the young monarch when she sailed to France to marry the French Dauphin. This answers the perennial question of who the fourth Mary was in the song: "Mary Beaton, Mary Seaton, Mary Carmichael and I".

Livingston was one of five people to draft the Declaration of Independence, with Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Roger Sherman, but did not sign the declaration as he had to be at the New York Provincial Convention on 8 July 1776.

For the president of the St Andrew's Society to have administered the oath of office shows the influence that it and the Scottish community must have had, even when deeply divided by the revolution. Livingston's place in American history does not stop there. He was sent to Paris by president Jefferson to negotiate the Louisiana Purchase - and it is interesting to imagine what America might be like today if his mission had not been successful. Livingston and fellow Scottish American James Monroe agreed to purchase 828,000 square miles for $11,250,000 plus the assumption of $3,750,000 in American claims against France, a total of $15 million.

For this price - perhaps the greatest real estate deal of all time - they bought what are now the states of Louisiana, Missouri, Iowa, Arkansas, Nebraska and most of Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Minnesota and Montana. They doubled the size of their country and provided for its unlimited westward expansion for less than three cents an acre.

THE 650-strong membership of the St Andrew's Society of the State of New York now leans more heavily towards Scottish Americans than American Scots. However, the success of Scottish financial services and other businesses ensures a regular batch of new Scottish-born members.

The extent of the Scottish lineage is not specified but the desire to become a member can result in strange links being promoted to justify qualification. Bruce says one applicant claimed to be descended from the King of the Picts. His approach was declined.

Activities include regular socials four or five times a year, when 50-60 people may attend, to substantially larger turnouts for Burns Night, St Andrew's Night and Tartan Day. Bruce confesses to having been sceptical as to whether Tartan Day would last, which is ironic as he was pivotal in its conception. It was in The Mark of the Scots that the comparison and connection between the Declaration of Arbroath and the Declaration of Independence was made. That was shown to Trent Lott, then the Senate majority leader, and Tartan Day was born.

Bruce is keen to promote the diaspora and has mooted the idea of a Scottish Hall of Fame. To some extent, it mirrors The Scottish 100, which details the global success and achievements of Scots.

Bruce argues passionately: "I have been studying this for a quarter century and come across many ethnic groups. I am quite confident that none can come up with a list like my 100. Between 1750 and 1950, the Scots were the most influential of all nationalities."

The names contained in his book would adorn any hall of fame: in architecture and design, Robert Adam and Charles Rennie Mackintosh; Thomas Glover and Jardine and Mathieson from business; Alexander Fleming from medicine, John Paul Jones and Douglas McArthur for the military; statesmen including Andrew Jackson, not to mention scientists such as Rutherford and Maxwell. All are Scots or of Scots identity, and all performed on a global stage.

Bruce's introduction makes it clear what he defines as a Scot: "There are many people, particularly in Scotland, who think that only people born in that country are Scots.

"Others think only people who have lived in Scotland are Scots. In the US, there is a general feeling that anyone with even a small amount of Scottish blood is still a Scot. For the most part I have limited the people in the list to those with significant amounts of Scottish ancestry."

There must surely be a place for according our successful sons and daughters the honour and respect they deserve? It is a logical extension to a Centre for the Scottish Diaspora. Not just embracing those who have left but celebrating those who succeeded.

Who we are as Scots is not just reflected in our own land but in the ideas and influence we have exerted and generated around the globe. It is time to recognise that and celebrate the achievements of our most successful sons and daughters who left their mark around the world.

FACTS AND FIGURES


4.8m

THE number of Americans who claimed Scottish ancestry in the 2000 census; another 4.3 million said they were Ulster Scots, whose forebears migrated first to Northern Ireland, then America.

75

THE number of St Andrew Societies in the US. An estimated 300-400 other Scottish groups with different names exist.

1657

THE year the oldest US society - the St Andrew Society of Boston - was set up. Many original members were sent to America after being captured following Cromwell's routing of Scottish forces at the Battle of Dunbar in 1650.

30,000

THE attendance at the biggest Highland Games in the US, at Grandfather Mountain, North Carolina.

11

THE number of American presidents who claimed Scottish descent - including Theodore Roosevelt and Ulysses S Grant.

21

THE signatories of the Declaration of Independence who were Scots or of Scots descent. Nine of the governors of the newly-created United States of America were of Scots descent.

8

THE number of places named Aberdeen and Edinburgh by Scots settlers in the US. There are also seven Glasgows and eight places called Scotland.

3

NUMBER of chairs broken at the annual dinner of the St Andrew Society of Philadelphia in 1762 by Benjamin Franklin. The oldest signatory of the Declaration of Independence was a guest at the event and also smashed Madeira and port glasses during a robust evening.

When told of the damage he had caused, Franklin suggested he come next time to see how much more damage he could do.

130

PLACES in North Carolina which begin with Mc or Mac.

1850

THE year Allan Pinkerton moved to Chicago to found the now world-famous detective agency. Born in Glasgow in 1819, he trained as a cooper and was active in radical politics, leaving Scotland to escape imprisonment. He moved into detection when he came across a gang of counterfeiters and helped to bring them to justice. He also pursued Jesse James.

79

THE number of the New York Highland Regiment, which served under president Abraham Lincoln as the nation's only kilted regiment and was recruited largely from the membership of the New York Caledonian Club. The 79th fought in many major battles, including the First Battle of Bull Run in July 1861. President Ulysses S Grant was an honorary member of the 79th.

1899

THE year that multimillionaire Andrew Carnegie, a member of the New York Caledonian Club, gave the opening speech on Halloween.

45

THE number of members of the St Andrew's Society of Philadelphia who, at a meeting on 1 December 1788, consumed "38 bottles of claret, eight bottles of port wine, two bowls of punch plus Welsh rabbit and bread and cheese".

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 December 2006 12:26 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

2dogs in D.C.,

in the u.s.of sorts 01/12/2006 00:46:00

It is amazing, isn't it? my folks are scots-irish,and for laughs,a verrrrry distant cousin signed our declaration of independence. however, don't even think about the u.s. of scotland. go for independence, then allow some of your expats home, after all, you've a large ammount of e.euros already, why not see if any scots decendents might not want to give it a try in an independent scotland? good luck in may.

2

Robert,

Kirriemuir 01/12/2006 01:05:26

Reading this article makes it sound as if the USA is an off-shore island of Scotland (well, of course, not quite an island). What lept into mind on perusal was those who are Jewish; surely they come in with a bigger shout than us Scots but then, that other pertinent question arises like, is being Jewish a religion or a nationality? I am still cogitating on this one.

3

The Strategist,

01/12/2006 01:17:07

Good grief.. If all the American Scots put £10 each every year into a venture fund for small Scottish businesses, start-ups etc it would transform the Scottish economy....

4

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 02:21:26

"Some nationalities forsook their heritage when assimilating into new lands; the Scots never did."

I can tell you my family never did. My great grand parents on both my mom and dad's side emigrated from Scotland and their descendants married fellow Scots who were either born here to parents who also immigrated here or who came over directly from Scotland on their own (being that the ties back in Scotland were still so strong). I felt tremendous pressure from my family to marry a Scots girl, and to their chagrin I did not (choosing instead to marry the girl I fell in love with). Just the same, though born here in the US, I consider myself a Scot, no doubt. And I have often wondered how many of us are transplanted over here. The numbers are astounding! Good grief is right, Dick…

5

Bret,

New York 01/12/2006 05:27:06

Yeah, all those "Scots" living over here are readily identifiable by their American accents! Ha! The USA is full of USA-born folk being Scottish wannabees!

As a nipper, I used to be told in school that "if your parents weren't born in Scotland and you weren't either, then you shouldn't consider yourself Scottish!"
What aboot that?

This has been Rod Stewart's angst thoroughout his entire life, because he was born south of the border!

6

Conan,

Here 01/12/2006 05:33:36

Jings, what'll ye dae if we aw' decide to come hame at once ..... aw' 80,000,000 o' us?

Ah dinnae think ye'll hae enough hooses fur us tae live in. The place'll end up lookin' like Hong Kong - bit wae a Scots accent and fatter folks.

Bit, if we dae come hame ah wish tae be greeted at the dock like whin a gang awa tae Honalooloo .... ah want wan of thame fine lookin wee charmers, but in a wee kilt, tae pit wun of they floory necklaces - bit made oot o' heather - aroond ma homesick neck before they show me tae the free hooseing, the welfare office, the unemplyment office, the free doctor's office, the free hame help and aw' that.

Ah kin hardly wait .... ah'm fair furfechin!

7

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 07:01:39

5. Bret, New York
“Yeah, all those "Scots" living over here are readily identifiable by their American accents! Ha! The USA is full of USA-born folk being Scottish wannabees!”

I was born and raised here in the US (California) by many close family members with thick brogue accents and naturally speak the same - have for 37 years. My family that is still in Scotland don’t consider me a Scots wannabe, as you put. But you are right, there are those I guess. The same issue is with the Irish in America as well.

“As a nipper, I used to be told in school that "if your parents weren't born in Scotland and you weren't either, then you shouldn't consider yourself Scottish!"
What aboot that?”

Well here’s aboot that. For most Scottish clans (including mine, which is Cameron), there are members who were not Scots born (oh eventually, their kin was though). This is because a clan (traditionally) would take voluntary members foreign born to Scotch soil, provided they accept the clan’s ways and standards. This was the basis for accepting Irish members (and in addition to the Celts, Spaniards, Swedes, and dare I say, some English too). Scots should know and not forget their (albeit ancient) history. It is in my estimate a great luxury to be born in Scotland and be Scots. I am a wee bit jealous of several of my cousins over there. But again, they do not consider me a wannabe. Not at all. Neigh should anyone else. Besides, what’s the benefit for wanting that? But then again, I’m raised in a country where anyone foreign born can become an American, and they will be just that, so I might be less inclined to accept a birth right argument.

8

Media 1,

Cape Town 01/12/2006 07:28:25

So I guess the real question is why is there 80 million abroad and only 4.5 million back in Scotland........

Must be the weather!

9

Dave,

Western Isles 01/12/2006 08:31:36

"Scotch soil" Fiction?

Yup, you definately are not Scottish with a phrase like that! Your affiliated to the Cameron Clan then? As in David Cameron the Tory leader?

Aye, we see now, very clearly.

10

Comment is Free,

U.S. 01/12/2006 08:41:07

Scottish wannabees my foot! I'm generation 2.5, had my grandmother when she was young decided for dual citizenship as her dad emigrated out of Mallaig my mom would probably have dual citizenship and so would I. Had it not been for 200 years of Union the family would have probably stayed and I would have some close cousins in Scotland today. Besides, many of us are here anyway in connection with the '15 and '45 and the Clearances. England's interference in Scotland led to these things. I hope the SNP wins in May followed by a yes vote on re-independence and after independence that those who are part of the diaspora themselves and those close to it are allowed to gain Scottish citizenship. Ireland saw a similar regaining of support from the Irish in the U.S. Why shouldn't we give the same support to Scotland?

I know for myself that a gal I would marry would just have to take the possibility of living in Scotland at some time in her life for granted, post re-independence though.

It seems that in countries where diasporas have occurred that they look at those who are part of that diaspora as having right to claim their part in that country, at least in its history and legacy. Ireland does this and Scots I've run into seem to take the same look at it.

So when are we on this side of the Pond going to start pressuring Congress to recognize Scotland after a referendum on re-independence? If some of us decide to do this, let's not make the same mistake which saw Ireland divided and insist the U.S. only recognize all of Scotland as re-independent and not part of it still a part of the UK. Are we going to get together on helping fund the SNP if we believe in re-independence for Scotland? The SNP could certainly use the funds boost to help fight a more fairly balanced campaign against New Labour. The faster the Union dies the sooner Scotland booms. Let's help Scotland boom.

11

Dave,

Western Isles 01/12/2006 08:45:37

Hmmm.

Who needs the Union for money and subs when our Scottish brothers and sisters in the US will pay back what they are due to Scotland?!

After all, didn't Washington support the IRA movement?

12

Elke,

01/12/2006 08:53:07

i remember singing as a child - yestreen the queen had four marys the nicht she'll hae but three - there was mary beaton and mary seaton and mary carmichael and me - and it was widely known that the fourth mary was mary queen of scots - obviously after reading the above article we are all wrong - but it just doesnt cut it - yestreen the queen had five marys the nicht she'll hae but four - there was mary beaton and mary seaton and mary carmichael and mary livingston - hmmmmm

13

Bret,

New York 01/12/2006 09:07:08

All very educational:
#7 Yer Haverin' man!
#10 I have no idea what you're bletherin about.

(1) Americans holding a USA passport are exactly that...Americans with Scottish roots; however, Americans refer to themselves as Americans......not Scots!

14

MoragtheToerag,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 09:23:55

I'm always amazed at the number of American accents I've heard proclaiming, 'I'm Scottish' or 'I'm Irish'.

Then you ask, 'Really? What part of Scotland/Ireland are you from? When did you move to American then?'

And they say, 'Tennessee/Detroit/New York, etc.'

Erm. That makes you . . . AMERICAN.

Get over it!

15

Astro Turf,

01/12/2006 09:33:00

Im a proud scot and this garbage just leaves me cold. Nobody cares , and if they do the care about it in that stupid, twee way that loves Tartanry , Whisky , Our clans and all the other myths and creations we have invented over the years.

I want Scotland to be a PROUD FORWARD LOOKING ECONOMIC SUCCESS , not forever looking over its Chippy shoulder at ancient battles and hating the english.

Just watch the Americans flock in here later with all the shortbread nonsense.

16

Media 1,

Cape Town 01/12/2006 09:33:30

Think about it: If you were an American you would want to be another nationality to.

Truth is, Americans are Europeans with funny accents ya'll

17

Rubbersnap,

01/12/2006 09:41:11

I have American, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, Argentinian, French, Spanish, German, Latvian, Arabic, Kenyan, South African, Vietnamese, Laotian, Fijian, and Okinawan relatives ... who are all very proud of the Scots roots.

Cousins?? Well kinda ... sporting woman, my mother!!!

18

Rubbersnap,

01/12/2006 09:50:02

By the way ... I was taught in school that the Scottish identity was not predicated on being born in Scotland. If that was the case, having a Scots grandparent would not qualify you to play for a Scottish national team.

The clan system adopted septs and non-clansmen from the earliest times. Our Celtic forebears used Tanistry and commonly adopted their young to inherit. Adoption also happened the other way round. Sometimes the whole clan adopted the orphan.

THIS is the basis of Scottishness. It is not and never was about being born on the land. It was about identification with the people!! And there's millions want to do that!

I say let them. We's're aw Jock Tamson's bairns when ye get doon tae it!

19

Gerry,

Galway Ireland 01/12/2006 10:00:22

A massive 34.3% of the US population claimed Irish ancestry in the last US Census (24% in the state of Massachusetts). The Irish Government has assiduously courted this group. In the 1950's it changed Irish citizenship law to make Irish passports available to persons with at least one Irish grandparent. Article 2 of the Constitution of Ireland states "..the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish descent living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage".
The benefits have been enormous - huge inward investment, millions of visitors and an invaluable "good feeling" towards the Republic of Ireland from the people of the US in general. Many US citizens use their Irish passports when travelling to places where a US passport might not be looked upon favourably. I look forward to the day when an independent Scottish Government issues its own Scottish passports.

20

Dave,

Western Isles 01/12/2006 10:04:05

Having Scottish Roots,adds to the pedigree. Jennifer.

Erm no, it adds to the mongralisation. The Scots are a mongral nation Jennifer so by adding our genes to canda/america, we further mongralise ourselves.

21

The Strategist,

01/12/2006 10:17:30

#8 ........ Reminds me of an argument I had a year or so ago with a great friend of mine in London.. He wanted to know why there were so many "damn Scots" in London...

I told him they were planning the tank routes !

22

Callum,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 10:25:39

The USA needs more Direct air-link to Scotland. BAA and other Airlines shoud open more routes to and from Scotland. Better for us and Tourists. Scotland needs more air-links.

23

YabbaDabbaDoo,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 10:29:38

#18. I agree totally!
#21 Dave ya mongrel - away with you and your negativity. It's Friday!

24

Dave,

Western Isles 01/12/2006 10:32:04

YabbaDabbaDoo

Explain how that was negative? Mongralisation is the best way of ensuring the best genetic traits of the mother and father. To be a Pedigree, you have to mate with a family member.

Come on now Yabba, that's basic biology 101.

25

bill-alba,

fife 01/12/2006 10:38:38

Hopefully on independence the scottish government can ask people of Scots descent to return...it will be a great day.

26

YabbaDabbaDoo,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 10:50:59

Dave #25, I always thought mongrel was a derogatory term. This may not be the case in in the Western Isles though ;-)

27

Tof,

Always France 01/12/2006 11:07:49

USA or Australia are new countries. So without a long History behind.
Maybe people who live there still need to have an own History.
Here, in the famous old Europe as some say, everywhere you look you can see almost 1000 and more years of History.
I live near Paris, and almost 60% of the parisians come from the rest of France. A major part of them still revendicate that their are from Normandie, Bretagne, cote d'azur etc...
Back to the roots everywhere in the world !

28

Dave,

Western Isles 01/12/2006 11:07:58

Yabba

Yer a cheeky monkey! (BTW, theres more chance of being a pedigree up here if you know what I mean?? ;-) Thankfully me and the wife AIN'T related!!)

29

Alan F,

Edinburgh, Scotland 01/12/2006 11:26:35

There are two types of people in the world:

"Those who are Scottish and those who wish they were Scottish"

30

Alan F,

Tollcross 01/12/2006 11:34:11

Astro Turf is Gay

31

Nik,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 11:38:37

33.

That has to be the most exceptional slagging I have ever seen.

32

Ross,

01/12/2006 11:44:11

I like the idea of Americans helping in some way to fund the SNP campaign for independents. As most of you know there is not an abundance of cash around. How about as someone suggested early the Scot Americans donate 10 pounds each or 10 dollars. What about all these Scots societies over there mayby they can help.
Do all the Americans who might be eligible for a British passport through a Scots Granny or something know they could vote in our elections?

33

MoragtheToerag,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 11:47:22

Ross, a person is ONLY eligible for British nationality if he/she has a parent who is British by right of birth, not descent.

Having British grandparents doesn't make you eligible.

And trust me, all you who think having tons of Americans living right alongside you and taking over your country is a good idea: it isn't.


For MANY, MANY reasons.

34

Ross,

01/12/2006 12:00:29

Moragthetorag
I'm pretty sure that many People living in the States do in fact have British parents, probably in the thousands. I know some actually.
Many of whom will be from Scotland. Thus making quite a substantial difference to votes. You can vote in the British Embassy providing you are registered.
So i say all those Americans who are eligible, vote SNP
and i will buy you all a pint when you come over.

35

Heinrich,

NS 01/12/2006 12:05:32

When I was young I vowed I would only return to Scotland if and when the place was a self-governing country. I am almost certain I would not go through the bother these many years later. The geographical smallness, the weather, the intellectual snobbery about little (and the nearness of folk speaking other languages who think that way too).
There is a lot to be learned about Scots and Scotland from beyond its borders and no-one can take away one's most basic points of view, or, depending on how old one was taking flight out, all of one's late Medieval phonemes.
Raonul Crubach.

36

fatboyslim,

glasgow 01/12/2006 12:34:16

i dont think that americans realise that recent rise in the scottish independence movement has a lot to do with britain (ei tony blair) joining you lot in your imperliast war in iraq. the rise scottish nationlism is related to the fact about how WE scottish people want to be governed and we want an end to the british empire attitude (even though the empire is gone the english still think britain it world players) and the ass kissing america that the uk goverment does it makes us look like a joke. uk is a joke its the rock equvelnt of an aging rocker forming a band with a boy band in the hope regain success but make an arss of themselves. we need to put down the british bull dog its bit to many countries in the middles east recently. Do you think that scots really want lots more arragant suedo scots (americans) coming here after independence i think not.

37

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 01/12/2006 12:37:52

It's all about the scotch.....

Scottish independence is an important first step towards U.S. statehood. (Just as Texas won its independence from Mexico as a first step.)

38

Alisha,

01/12/2006 12:41:41

My ancestors came to America from Scotland in the 1600's and have been living in North Carolina since then. I love North Carolina and the place is just beautiful. If you are a Scot living in Scotland and are planning a trip to the US in July, do come to the Games. That is my yearly ritual and I just love it. It's like being in Scotland all over again...without rain and with trees.

39

fatboyslim,

glasgow 01/12/2006 12:49:29

to comment 40* understand the modern scotish indpendence movement and not the 18th century cliches of scotland. The 21 century scottish independence movment has nothing to do with texas joining the USA or the formation of any other USA state texas joined the usa in the 19th century (by the way when texas broke away from mexico its independence was recognised by Britain and not mexico and Texas did not want to become independant at all but join the usa straight away but was stopped by the north not wanting a huge still SLAVE owning state to come into the union at that time )

40

Dave,

Western Isles 01/12/2006 12:57:57

What is it to be American then? Fro the comments I have read recently, the Americans spend a lot of time trying to be Scottish? Is it that America is actually Scotlands 2nd state?

41

sandy,

USA 01/12/2006 13:27:31

#15--AstroTurf-- shortbread

42

Ross,

01/12/2006 13:29:05

Alisha#41
Believe or not we do actually have trees in Scotland..

43

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 01/12/2006 13:29:57

Pending Scotish statehood, a few adjustments must occur in Scotland:

1. Driving on the correct side of the road is a difinitive way of telling the world, "we are no longer British".
2. Learning the American language. The works of H.L. Mencken would be a good start.
3. Glascow needs an NFL franchise before she can be taken serious.
4. A seafaring people such as the Scottish will need a navy to protect its world-wide interests. (that would be the u.s. navy in that nice old port on your east coast.)

Another option for Scotland is to become a self-governingU.S. commonwealth. (like the Virgin Islands) That option would allow for income tax free status, but Scotland would not have the option of voting against the likes of Bush.

(actually my greatest fear as a american is that we'll end up with either Scotland or England...and I don't want England.) (smile)

44

Nik,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 14:12:02

47.

That's a nice bit of stirring you are doing, Tom.

45

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 01/12/2006 14:28:19

48.
"That's a bit of stirring", indeed...and that's why we're independent, and Scotland longs to be, good luck....LOL

cheers....now I'm off to find those Britney Spears photos...

46

Rob me blind,

01/12/2006 14:30:18

Funny how its always those who left have the warmest feeling for a place

47

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 01/12/2006 15:15:56

#10 you dont live here, and you have no say in our politics so bugger off. Typical just like stupid Irish Americans longing for the 'homeland' and supporting the IRA but never actually wanting to live there.

48

Maxie,

01/12/2006 15:39:45

sonofhamish says that is you dont live here then you have no say in our politics. Does that include the people of England and expat Brits sunning themselves in Spain and who now have the vote?

This article could have applied to most English-speaking countries and beyond with the immense contribution that Scots have made to the world.

Funny how we are capable of running other countries but somehow not capable of running our own!

49

Vivian,

USA 01/12/2006 15:53:09

I was born in the US, my Mother and her siblings were all from Scotland. When Americans are asked their lineage, ethnicity, etc., we usually say Scottish, Polish, Italian, or wherever our ancestors came from. America is probably the original melting pot so folks liked to identify where there roots began. I realize the entire world is now a melting pot now, but I believe that's why Americans say there anything other than American. When I've been to Europe or the UK, I always say I'm American, not that I HAVE to identify myself, I guess you all can spot us a mile away!! :)

50

Bill Costley (jr),

Santa Clara CA USA 01/12/2006 15:59:53

My dad was born in Scotland (Glasgow, 1911); I lived in Scotland (in 1985, in Markinch, Fife) & have often returned to visit. My 'blog is hosted in Irvine by blogcity-com. Q: Am I a Scot? If so, where's my Scottish passport (not the jokey tourist one, but a real one.) I'm serious; start backing your cultural assertions with some valid paper & I'll pay whatever it costs to get it.

51

fatboyslim,

dumfries 01/12/2006 16:01:27

Tom of ocean city are you thick or what NOBODY in scotland wants to become part of the usa. keep you idotic views. you can keep your lovely country that is the biggest hypocrites going. you say that you live in a democracy well the reality is your country is the first empire of the 21st century and the only thing that you have inherited from scotland is to be part of an empire. in your case it is an empire in deninal. an empire based on lies and fear. you conqured iraq and put a puppet government in that my friend is an empire

52

sandy,

USA 01/12/2006 16:23:07

#54--Vivian--"i realize the entire world is now a melting pot, but i believe thats why Americans say there anything other than American" i can't speak for others, but my ancestors came to America from Scotland, Germany & Ireland & my birthplace is Pennsylvania USA, therefore, i am a proud American.

53

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 01/12/2006 16:24:53

#56
At the very least, I urge you to assert your independence, and start driving on the correct side of the road...(you can faze in gradually, start with the buses.)

Of course I know Scotland does not WANT to be part of America....it's that you may not have a viable choice as the century unfolds, time will tell.

As far as our 21st century American empire goes, we're tired of the baggage that goes with it. Isolationism is taking hold here, do to poor decision making by our geography-knowledge challenged leaders, which may prove to be even more of a danger for democracy. Time will tell.

One thing is for sure Mr. Scotsman, we're both going to need a sense of humor.

best wishes for the holidays.

(now the real question is, how can britney forget to wear panties if she has never owned any?)

54

sandy,

USA 01/12/2006 16:24:55

#56--fatboy--a chill pill is required here!!!!

55

Steve here,

here 01/12/2006 16:28:10

I just wantabe Roman, but ah wisnae born there.

56

Country Life,

01/12/2006 16:37:48

As a Scot who lived abroad then returned, I often despair of the parochial attitudes of some of my countrymen. Some of you are doing a grand job of showing just how parochial we can be.

BTW it was always a pleasure to make contact with the Scots communities in many of the countries I visited. Many of the people I met up with had a fairly distant link with Scotland, but if they feel an emotional link and take a real interest in the country that's good enough for me; we should welcome with open arms those who want to be Scots.

Mind you, I still call myself Scots-Italian

57

stellarossa,

Cincinnati, Ohio, USA 01/12/2006 16:43:39

Americans feel the need to belong to an immigrant group for some strange reason. They're not being mean or stupid, they just want to belong somewhere.

I've lost count the number of times someone has sat down with me after finding out I'm Scottish (born, bred) and quizzed me at length on some irrelevant (to me anyway) point about Scotland. It's kind of charming.

58

Bonbright,

Los Angeles 01/12/2006 16:47:17

If you use the 2000 Census data, available to the public, there are 40-60,000,000 people of Scots descent and ancestry and all races.

The biggest Highland Games in the US is held Labor Day weekend (September 1st) in Pleasanton, CA. Across the Bay from San Francisco.

The continued misuse and maluse of population figures of Scots in the diaspora hits Scots in the pocketbooks and contributes to spending their siller in the wrong places, for the wrong groups, and at the wrong times!

59

Nik,

Edinburgh 01/12/2006 16:49:11

58.

'Of course I know Scotland does not WANT to be part of America....it's that you may not have a viable choice as the century unfolds, time will tell.'

Do you truly believe this?

60

Lauri,

Colorado 01/12/2006 16:57:40

#56
Can't you tell when someone is pulling your leg?

I thought Scots were supposed to have a sense of humor. Oh that's right, that a stereotype. You are doing that to Americans. Not all of us support Bush or the war. I am conservative and my son is joining the Navy. I am not some left wing nut job. It is possible to support your country but not the war. We are proud to be Americans and we do have an opinion on everything. That one great reason to be an American. You can state your opinion on anything and anyone is free to argue with you.
Sounds to me like you are employing your right to argue and enjoying it!

BTW with most Americans it's almost a form of joke to state how many different nations your ancestors come from. My hillbilly Grandma used to say we were everything but black and Russian!

61

BrianM,

New York 01/12/2006 17:00:28

For any Scots (born or decended), anywhere in the world, these three programs were shown on BBC Scotland leading up to St Andrews Day and have been made available on the BBC website. You need RealPlayer to watch them.

Underscores alot of the work in Duncan's books

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/scotlandshistory/me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/scotlandshistory/me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/scotlandshistory/me...

Just enjoy what we are all part of and keep the Saltire flying high.

62

Richard Millar,

Manchester, England (Born Dundee 80 lived till 03) 01/12/2006 17:10:25

The reason i expressed in dates my Scottishness is due to the riddiculous and strange arguements put by certain people on this forum.

My surname is Millar, the Scottish spelling of the surname, yet my mothers name is Farley, hence she and i have Irish roots (like my mum who was born and bred in Scotland). Hence on the surface i may seem 100% Scottish but i also have a heritage i am hugely proud of.

The same can be said for the Scots Americans, they have a heritage they are proud of, and quite rightly so, do we Scots not have a country to celebrate?

The simplistic view expressed by some over the view of nationality depresses me somewhat. Nationality is a complicated issue. The person who slted Rod Stewart for being un-Scottish due to the fact he has a cockney accent is wrong. Both parents are Scottish, surely he has a strong Scottish parentage, so is then Scottish, his blood is Scottish surely?

Or, to take the simple view that only the nation of your birth grants a national belonging? What of those Scots who were born of two Scottish parents on foreign climes? Which nationality are you if you were inconveniently born in a country your parents were holidaying in over a certain summer, is your nationality French, German, American, Nigerian or Thomson?

The simple fact is we, as Scots, should celebrate the fact that we have others who are born in another country wish to be identified with ousrselves due to the fact that they are proud to be Scottish. We are proud of our identity and this is not limited by borders, but by a shared heritage.

63

BrianM,

New York 01/12/2006 17:12:47

For any Scots (born or decended), anywhere in the world, these three programs were shown on BBC Scotland leading up to St Andrews Day and have been made available on the BBC website. You need RealPlayer to watch them.

Underscores alot of the work in Duncan's books

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/scotlandshistory/me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/scotlandshistory/me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/scotlandshistory/me...

For any of you feeling homesick here is a few more videos to enjoy.

http://www.scotlandistheplace.com/movies

Just enjoy what we are all part of and keep the Saltire flying high.

Visit the St. Andrews Society of the State of New York here > http://www.standrewsny.org

64

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 17:50:27

9 Dave

You’re being petty here. A simple typing mistake Scotch for Scots when I did spell check and allowed a false replacement in error. Error and apology. If I could go back to edit it, I would. As for any Cameron slight, you can go straight to hell! Though I don’t support David’s politics, we may indeed (and I don‘t know this for certain) share the same heritage and bloodline (which incidentally, does not cease when transplanted to another nation’s borders, get it?). But like everyone else here on the planet, I can’t control the willful actions of another. Therefore, I’m not responsible for David, nor is my family. What he does is on him, and him alone.

65

Lawrence,

Virginia 01/12/2006 17:55:49

Dick#3...depending on what happens in May will dictate what investors here will do. You get the communist and socialist from England out of your pocket and dump that worthless NHS thats killing you folks there and you'll be on your way.

66

GP,

01/12/2006 17:56:06

20# Gerry well said son.

given that scotland will be starting this process further down the line we will need to extend it much further back and include anyone who can prove lineage.
Scottishness has nothing to do with staying here or being born here it never has.

there is something definately different for instance every true scot I know could walk behind a pipe band forever. The hairs on the back of yer neck stand up for some reason. Now other friends of mine from other parts of the Uk and europe do not have any feelings, and yet some others do.

I think it may have something to do with the pitch and brians reaction I don't know, but there is something.

Good luck to all the americans who want to link to scotland there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all after all, we'll brothers be for aw that.

Seperation by a wee bit water is nothing.

67

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 01/12/2006 18:14:02

nic. #64

The boundaries are always being redrawn. Some few years ago English tories were passing a petition around at their conference about England becoming a U.S. state. (not my choice) Western Canadian provinces have more in common with the U.S. west then Quebec or the maritime provinences, and often express this.

I do not "believe" in anything but my fondness for your national beverage, I do think this century will change things like never before. The days of a "U.K" with Scotland are probably numbered. Can Scotland protect its international interests with no Navy or Army of the quality she now enjoys with the rest of the U.K.?

68

Angus Mor,

God's Own Island 01/12/2006 18:18:21

That would be an American English spell checker though, eh Fiction? Succinctly different fae Scots English!

69

Sambo,

The deep south 01/12/2006 18:26:17

As a proud born and raised Scot now living in the US I brought some American friends over for a visit, they were so amazed at the friendlyness and good humor of all the Scots they met.

70

The Strategist,

01/12/2006 18:26:48

Lawrence #70 ... The Chancellor Gordon Brown used to talk about the importance of establishing a "US style enterprise economy" here. It never happened of course. In a recent report on VC funding it looks as if in 05 VCs only invested somewhere around £15-20m in Scottish start-ups...

There isn't the same culture here as regards risk equity capital as there is in the US... That has to change and in fact the US could help that by encouraging their VCs to compete with what few VCs there are operating in Scotland.

As to the NHS what that needs is a very serious shakeup especially in terms of it's management. It's unlikely to change to become an insurance based system like yours but it could become a whole lot more effective than it is..... Maybe we need to get US managers into that as well !!

71

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 01/12/2006 18:33:58

#74
Having recently returned from a holiday in your old penal colony downunder, it is my intention to invade Scotland very shortly and find out for myself.
(I was amused at the fact that the people of OZ still enjoy having "YOUR" queen as head of "THEIR" state, and some from Perth cringed at the thought of no more Scotland in the U.K.)
interesting.

72

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 18:37:31

73. Angus Mor, "That would be an American English spell checker though, eh Fiction? Succinctly different fae Scots English!"

It is Angus Mor, and sorry for that. I meant no disrespect is the point and like you, I was unable to choose the language spoken in my country, and thus speak my language. I did state that I was envious of my cousins in Fife. I do love the country I was born in (it's ideals anyway, even if they aren't in all ways put to proper use), but the same I love my FAMILY is Scotland. If fellow countrymen refuse to acknowledge strong famillial ties, then let them be ignorant.

71. GP "Seperation by a wee bit water is nothing."
Thank you!

73

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 19:12:37

I meant, "I love my FAMILY in Scotland." Sorry.

PS - Hey Angus Mor? "Scots English", eh. Not really Scots now, is it? Wouldn't that properly be one of the many forms of Gealic? I think it would be, mate.

74

Bien E. Bien,

01/12/2006 19:20:56

I was born in Scotland, have a British passport, and am happy to consider myself to be both Scottish and British. I have lived in Canada for the past few years, have a Canadian wife, and Canadian-born child (dual British and Canadian passports for her!), have a job, property etc. here, and yet do not think of myself as being the slightest bit Canadian. Perhaps it is because I have the misfortune to reside in Quebec, where I fail to identify with the deeply confused sense of nationhood.

75

Wee Hev,

Doon Unner 01/12/2006 20:28:53

It doesn't matter where you were born: If you were of Scottish parents, but born in Beijing, you wouldnae be f****** Chinese, would you?

Both my grandparents were born in Ulster, of Ulster-born parents, yet they were always Scottish. No, they weren't from Planter stock, they were farming people who had farms in each country. They weren't Presbytreians either.

They celebrated Burns' Night, St Andrew's Day and all Scottish traditions. We were brought up to be Scottish. We went to Scottish universities, then stayed. My parents now live in Scotland, as Ulster is about to be sold cheap to the Irish, who have no legitimate claim to it.

If anyone calls me "Irish" I am offended. I am a Scot, with a pedigree as lang's yer airm!

76

Echelon_Dr.Jekyll,

The Lab 01/12/2006 22:40:30

I'm sure I added to the Scots-American population when I was in the USA but you have to understand I was hydeing at the time.

77

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 23:05:03

81. Echelon_Dr.Jekyll
"I'm sure I added to the Scots-American population when I was in the USA but you have to understand I was hydeing at the time."

In the Garden of Eden, were you?

78

GP,

01/12/2006 23:23:15

To anyone who thinks that you can only be scottish if you are born here or live here theh I say you are the non scot.
I have relations all over the world who I have never met or conversed with but they are still close to my heart.
Canadians - who came over during the 2nd WW to help their home country. They asked if our family wished to go back after the war to a much better land. We didn't and we have lost contact but I know they will have progressed well.
USA - several family links but I have never attempted to contact as I am happy in the knowledge that my kith and kin are there.
New Zealand - Orkadian relatives went there many mnay years ago and a couple of their grandsons came back for holiday stayed married a couple of orkney girls (believe it or not) and have stayed, as far as I know.
Australia - family members went our in the 20' 50' and 60's all appear to be doing well.

I have no doubt in my mind that they and their descendants are scots through and through. I believe this because I believe strongly that part of being scots is passed on through education, behaviour and sociability.
There is nothing wrong with celebrating your roots after all as man progresses his investigations into genes we are finding some interesting things.
Genes drive the scots onwards and outwards it seems in a perpetual drive to continue probably more than any other nation.

Was Neil Armstrong from scots/ulster descent?

79

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 23:30:25

83. GP
"USA - several family links but I have never attempted to contact as I am happy in the knowledge that my kith and kin are there."

Any relation to Witherspoon, Taylor, Lekington, Elliott, or Tatman?

80

GP,

01/12/2006 23:47:00

84# Let's not start a family connections blog or we#ll have 40 - 60 million all trying.
But as a guide here are some of them.
USA - OHIO area, Calander by name
Canada - various areas, Swan by name
NZ - Auckland area, Jamieson by name
OZ - Sydney plus other areas, Stevenson, Cunningham and McIntosh by name(s).

Plus many more due to the sea faring nature of one side of the family.

81

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 01/12/2006 23:51:07

85. GP
"Let's not start a family connections blog or we#ll have 40 - 60 million all trying."

I'm with you on that; I was only curious to see if maybe you and I might be related, since you are expressing sentiments similar to my family's, both here and in Scotland. I'll leave you alone now.

82

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 02/12/2006 00:00:39

83. GP
In re: "Was Neil Armstrong from scots/ulster descent?"

I found this on Wikipedia:

The first child of Stephen Koenig Armstrong and Viola Louise Engel.

The first man to walk on the Moon was also approached by political parties from both ends of the spectrum. He has turned down all these offers (unlike former astronauts and senators John Glenn and Harrison Schmitt). Personally, he identifies most with Jeffersonian republicanism, being for states' rights and against the United States acting as the world's policeman.

In 1972, Neil Armstrong was welcomed into the town of Langholm, Scotland, the traditional seat of Clan Armstrong. The astronaut was made the first freeman of the burgh, and happily declared the town his home. The chief magistrate read from an unrepealed 400-year-old law that required him to hang any Armstrong found in the town.

I don't know if this works towards an answer for you.

83

GP,

02/12/2006 00:26:41

86#
No worries.
I have travelled to many parts of USA and look forward to visiting more.
I have been to California, Texas, Colorado, Florida, Massachusets, Georgia, Iowa.
I hope to visit the Carolinas and Virginia but this will have to wait as I am going to go to Canada next.

I really loved Georgia especially the trail of tears and north Georgia. I was staying just north of Atlanta and some locals advise not to go north as the closer you get to the hills the crazier the people get. well you can guess that the very next day we jumped into the car and drove north, dropped off the highway into a small town and we had a ball.
local musicians were playing alfresco and the music was similar to scots music ( to me anyway).
Whilst in a local shop in this small town an army seargant walked in to thank the shopkeeper for her support during his tour of Iraq. he had drove form Tennesee to thank her. I spoke to him and he was amazed to find a scot there. This was good as he had been working alongside a scottish regiment in Iraq and he had nothing but praise for them. he also said that he had scottish ancestry.

It's a smaller world and less lonely if we can keep these ties going.

meet you the first time I get to Ventura.
If not be good to any scot who passes you by,
This should be the main thing for all scots to focus on.

Cheerio

84

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 02/12/2006 00:40:00

88. GP
"It's a smaller world and less lonely if we can keep these ties going...be good to any scot who passes you by..."

Truer words, never spoken!

Take care in your travels.

PS - My American cousin was part of a ground support unit for an operation utilising a Scottish tank regiment in Iraq. Two of the tanks were flying Rampant Lions. He saw this and was brought to tears. They fought hard.

85

GP,

02/12/2006 00:53:10

89# thank you.

I was brought up in a belief in the human good.
Look for the best in people and you will be rewarded. Laugh as much as you can because if you can't laugh then you can't live.
Treat people as you would like to be treated.
Help anyone in need, never walk on by.

I was in Amsterdam recently and a guy asked me if I had any money to spare. His story was he had just arrived from Liverpool and was looking for a bunk. I gave him the last euros I had about 20 nothing really but if it meant he could get a bed then fair enough. If he used it for other substances then that was up to him it was not for me to question but do what I could.

You never know what's round the corner facing you and but for the grace of god and all that. I hope I never need such help myself but you never know.

good luck to all scots across the globe.

86

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 02/12/2006 01:02:45

The Pride Is With Us!

PS - If interested, here's where some pictures my cousin took are posted.

Scottish Dragoon Guards:
http://www.smh.com.au/ftimages/2003/03/28/1048653838199.html

87

GP,

02/12/2006 01:46:06

thanks.
had a quick look they are good.

I didnt agree with the war because of the lies told but once the troops are involved we got to support them 100%

i am going to bed now

88

Fiction,

Ventura - USA 02/12/2006 01:48:17

92. GP

Didn't agree with it myself (still don't). But family and all...

Goodnite from America.

89

EnglishJon,

Oxford UK 02/12/2006 05:15:08

It sounds to me like Scotland should become the 52nd state and join with Puerto Rico. Need two to keep the American Flag balanced.

90

fatboyslim,

dumfries 02/12/2006 12:06:03

to comment 94 how can we be the 52nd state as that is what england will end up if rupert murdoch has his way

91

Budgie,

Scotland 02/12/2006 13:55:14

*20 Gerry, Galway.
Allow the Irish! Could their eyes have been more on the money to be generated by granting passports to American nationals of Irish extraction, rather than the reverse? Good decision anyway.
Our Treasury would benefit considerably if they were to copy the Irish example.

92

James C,

Another Salty Seaman 02/12/2006 19:01:52

#96 Jennifer
It it's OZ, NZ, USA and Canada, it'll probably Blue Star. Though if just the antipodies it'll be NZSCo, Federal or Port....

93

AmScot,

Illinois USA 02/12/2006 23:49:09

I don't understand the bruhaha. My ancestors seem to have come to this country about 3 generations ago. All of my grands-, greatgrands-, etc were either Scots or Irish and all married either Scots or Irish. Anyway you slice it, I'm of Scots-Irish descent -- And fiercely proud of it! And I feel that we should all be proud of our heritage, whether it be Scots, Irish, or some combination of twelve nationalities. But above it all, I consider myself an American; I salute the flag, I believe in the Pledge Of Allegiance. So what could possibly be wrong with being an American of Scots-Irish descent? Or any other descent? Let us all be proud of who we are.

94

johnnyo,

Cobourg Ontario 06/12/2006 19:08:15

We're all from somewhere. Its how you live your life thats really important.


 

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