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Unesco slams city on Caltongate

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Published Date: 18 November 2008
UNESCO yesterday criticised Edinburgh council's handling of the Caltongate development and said the demolition of two listed buildings could have been avoided, The Scotsman can reveal.



Its European heritage chief, Dr Mechtild Rössler, condemned the council for allowing the London developer Mountgrange to draw up the initial blueprint for the huge Old Town site, by Waverley Station.

Dr Rössler said the move to allow a deve
loper to lead the "masterplanning", instead of the local authority, was "highly unusual" in a World Heritage site and was probably responsible for the scheme attracting so much opposition.

She said it was "puzzling" the council had decided on that approach with Mountgrange, a developer to which it had agreed to sell several parcels of land, when it had not done so over the proposed redevelopment of the nearby St James Centre.

Dr Rössler, who spent three days in the capital last week, said the council could have avoided the huge "tensions" between the developer, the business community and heritage bodies by leading the whole development process and avoiding demolitions.

"There were a number of issues that concerned us about the Caltongate development. We do consider that listed buildings should only be demolished as a last resort and generally should not happen in a World Heritage site. It's very important to us that stakeholders are listened to and their views are not overrun.

"It's very puzzling that the council did not lead the original masterplanning process. Had this happened, we believe many of the tensions over Caltongate could have been avoided and the proposed development would have looked a lot different. These buildings could've been saved."

Mountgrange has promised about 2,000 jobs. The scheme involves the creation of a hotel and conference centre, 200 homes, a public square, office blocks and a new arts quarter. But it involves demolition of two listed buildings, as well as the removal of all but the façade of a 1930s tenement block on the Canongate.

Unesco has also told The Scotsman that its report into the capital's World Heritage site will spell out serious concerns about the impact on Edinburgh's skyline of the Haymarket development, which was called in by the Scottish Government last week.

Jim Lowrie, Edinburgh city council's planning leader, admitted the local authority could be left in a "tricky position" if the council's handling of Mountgrange was strongly criticised and asked for a response.

However, Mountgrange has launched an attack on Unesco, the world heritage body, branding it an "irrelevance" and saying it is not interested in its views on the £300 million development.

The firm said it has no intention of postponing the start of work until after next summer's World Heritage summit, in Seville, discusses Edinburgh.

A spokesman Mark Cummings said a "dangerous precedent" would be set if a major developer had to wait until Unesco had delivered its judgment, and insisted that Mountgrange had no intention of changing its scheme, even if key criticisms were made by Unesco.









Page 1 of 1

 
1

Buttress,

18/11/2008 00:06:47
Well, there you go.

Can some of us have a wee time to say 'told you so'?

www.eh8.org.uk

And oh dear me - UNESCO, Mark Cummings, is far greater than you are. What a very, very foolish stance for a PR firm to have taken.

That's really a spot Philistine and ignorant, isn't it?




2

Buttress,

18/11/2008 00:17:23
Glad someone has some idea of what WHs status means - and it's not Ron Hewitt:

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Burning-Issue.4702766.jp#3448737

3

Buttress,

18/11/2008 00:33:32
http://www.eh8.org.uk/mountgrange_s_spin_doctors
4

Buttress,

18/11/2008 00:38:10
INVICTA PR:


" "Invicta Public Affairs is a world-class public affairs consultancy providing political engagement services to the commercial, industrial and development sectors. We build powerful political and public support for our clients to ensure exceptional chances of success in overcoming barriers to enterprise caused by regulatory systems as well as local and national government policy.


The team at Invicta rely on their extensive experience and knowledge of the political landscape in Scotland and the rest of the UK to deliver for clients across multiple sectors in a dynamic and innovative way.


Our aim is to win for our clients." "

Right. Read into that what you will.



5

Munter,

Musselburgh 18/11/2008 07:35:14
UNESCO are an "irrelevance" according to Mountgrange.
So Mountgrange are now bigger than the United Nations are they ?
In public relations terms Mark Cummings is a total fool. Even if you think UNESCO is an irrelevance you don't go on the record and say it, it only gives more ammunition to the objectors to paint you and your clients as arrogant bullies.
Which is what SOOT and other objectors are doing very successfully so well done to them.
6

Louis Catorze,

18/11/2008 07:47:58
"....more ammunition to the objectors to paint you and your clients as arrogant bullies.
Which is what SOOT and other objectors are doing very successfully so well done to them...."


Yeah, standing a distance a way, name calling. That helped the buildings, didn't it?
7

Munter,

Musselburgh 18/11/2008 07:59:15
Louis #6, the SOOT campaigners actually live in the area being discussed.
And, yes, they have waged a highly successful campaign against an arrogant and incompetent Edinburgh City Council and a developer, Mountgrange, that is not in the slightest bit interested in the historic nature of Edinburgh's Old Town. As evidenced in this article by the comments of their idiotic PR person, Mark Cummings.
8

Scoop in the City,

18/11/2008 08:03:34
More concerned about the height of the hotel at Haymarket which will spolit the skyline from the west. Mountgrange need to walk up the High Street and have a look at the Hotel on Blackfriars St. A great example of how a modern hotel does not need to look like a Birmingham Secondary school.
9

Jambo Dave,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 08:03:40
I wonder if they contact EDC by brown envelopes.They really leave themselfs open to all sorts.Who is in charge here?How can the developer be the one who knows best?He has only got one interest which is the bottom line for him.Our city is run by numpties,not news I think.
10

JWW,

Whitburn, West Lothian 18/11/2008 08:41:48
Is this development saga, a prime example of the role, modern day politicians play in society?
11

Buttress,

18/11/2008 08:46:18
Maybe the saga shows the role a couple of former politicians played in Edinburgh.

No doubt wee Donald Anderson's spin company will be spinning at high revs today to try to counter the damage.

http://www.eh8.org.uk/mountgrange_s_spin_doctors

Shame Coun Rose didn't quite understand:

http://cameronrose.blogspot.com/2008/11/unesco-calm-end-to-speculation.html

http://cameronrose.blogspot.com/2008/11/unesco-meeting.html


12

Ancient Biker,

Watching the Councillors 18/11/2008 08:47:04
John Menzies have just warned their customers that there is a shortage of Brown Envelopes in the Central edinburgh area - is this linked to this article?
13

Buttress,

18/11/2008 08:49:21
TV last night:

http://www.stv.tv/news/Council_claims_Edinburgh_heritage_statu_081117181255971

14

A Crofter,

Western Isles 18/11/2008 08:49:42
Yet another example of our politicians - local and national - worshipping greedy property speculators at the expense of Scotland's heritage.

15

Boy Wonder,

18/11/2008 08:55:09
The Council will let Mountgrange go ahead ... then UNESCO will pull the World Heritage status ... and all of the offending Councillors will lose their seats at the next election ... AFTER we tar and feather them!!!
16

dba,

HAYMARKET! 18/11/2008 08:57:45
There has been a serious 'odour' about the whole of the Haymarket planning application and the way it has been handled.

As the Application has been called in, I call on Audit Scotland ot instruct a full financial investigation into the various 'relationships' between companies associated with Councillors (Or former Councillors) and the various developers and Architects.

IN THE EVENT of anything untoward being found - the matter must, properly, be referred to Lothians and Borders Police to investigate and report on any possibility of criminality.

I call on the 'reporter' to ensure that as many local views and opinions arew canvassed and taken into consideration, especially following the cavalier and arrogant attitude of the planning committee when, in the face of strenuous objections the palns were approved.

As for Mountgrange - their comments in the article illustrates beyond any doubt, their contempt for the authorities, their contempt for the law and the total and utter contempt for the locals folk who will have to live under the shadow of the monstrosity!
17

Buttress,

18/11/2008 09:00:07
I hope Coun 'I voted for them' Rose reads that.

18

Buttress,

18/11/2008 09:04:44
From today's opinion 'Burning Issue' piece:

"SALLY RICHARDSON

spokeswoman, Save Our Old Town campaign

WORLD Heritage status is awarded on consideration by the World Heritage Committee (a committee of member nations of Unesco) on the recommendation of the International Commission on Monuments and Sites. Nominations are put forward by national governments (in this case the UK government), often at the suggestion of a national institution (in this case, the City of Edinburgh Council). The World Heritage Centre is an admin body for the UN World Heritage Convention, to which the UK is a signatory.

Unesco was formed in a spirit of encouraging international understanding and peace, through co-operation in the realm of education, science and culture. World Heritage Sites are an important part of this, encouraging nations to understand the values that they share with others across the globe: what Edinburgh and, say, Peru's Machu Picchu have in common may not be obvious immediately, but then you begin to understand how another culture produced – or came to value – a site, and realise that how they value that place is not very different from us.

To say World Heritage Status is irrelevant to Edinburgh is to say that Edinburgh has no relevance to the rest of humanity and, if removed, that its outstanding universal value has been significantly reduced. At present, the site remains of huge international significance and interest – key to this is its juxtaposition of the organic medieval Old Town and the carefully planned and designed 18th and 19th century New Town. Those calling on World Heritage Status to be dropped, or just ignored, need to open their minds, and perhaps also their hearts, to everything that makes Edinburgh special..."


The alternative view is by none other than Mountgrange's mouthpiece Ron Hewitt, Chamber of Commerce.

19

,

18/11/2008 09:42:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

Buttress,

18/11/2008 09:46:50
Let's be clear - Mountgrange is Caltongate.

Tiger is Haymarket.
21

NGH,

East Lothian 18/11/2008 09:50:20
Mark Cummings is doing his paymasters no service at all if his comments are accurately reported. The refusal of Mountgrange and the council planners to recognise the legitimate concerns that people have had about their proposals from day one has brought the whole process into disrepute. It's little wonder that so many people have become so cynical about the planning procedures in Edinburgh.
22

Seb,

18/11/2008 09:52:51
Could you post Ron Hewitt's response please? I'm unwilling to pay for poor reporting.
23

noswod,

Honestas 18/11/2008 09:55:27
This is what happens when you let spec/spiv builders try to rebuild the city. Lousey buildings. What happens when the "Man from Unesco" comes along, he says "In the rest of the world the people have major say especially when their are heritage buildings involved." The remarks by the developer illustrate the comtempt for any kind of democratic process involved in reviewing tearing up one of the key world sites of Historical interest. Lets hope the credit crunch puts the mockkers on this development. Fair wind to the opposers.
24

Buttress,

18/11/2008 09:59:27
"A London-based development company behind one of the most controversial planning decisions in Edinburgh made a £4,000 donation to the Scottish Labour Party to fund a champagne reception at a time when the backing of party councillors for the project was crucial to its success.

A Times investigation has established that the donation was made by Mountgrange, the company which is developing the £300 million Caltongate project in the heart of Edinburgh's historic OldTown. The scheme, which envisages the demolition of some listed buildings, is bitterly opposed by conservationists...

Links between Mountgrange and the Labour Party have been the subject of controversy since last October, when it was disclosed that Donald Anderson, the former Labour leader of Edinburgh council, had been appointed Scottish director of PPS, the public relations company which has been promoting the Caltongate project on behalf of Mountgrange..."


While still leader of the council, Mr Anderson had spoken out enthusiastically in favour of the Caltongate scheme in a newsletter published by PPS on behalf of Mountgrange..."

More:

http://independentrepublicofthecanongate.blogspot.com/2008/02/caltongate-developers-funded-labour.html
25

Buttress,

18/11/2008 09:59:56
Seb - you don't need to pay, simply sign in.
26

roadstohell,

18/11/2008 10:02:23
"Sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation" !
27

Seb,

18/11/2008 10:21:58
Butress, it's premium content and you have to subscribe.
28

Buttress,

18/11/2008 10:26:19
Well I haven't!

Here ye go:

Burning Issue



RON HEWITT

Chief executive, Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce

THE recent visit of the Unesco delegation was a welcome opportunity for the directors of the World Heritage Committee to assure themselves regarding the situation on the ground. That Dr (Mechtild] Rössler, in summing up, saw no reason to report Edinburgh's World Heritage status being at risk is welcomed by the business community. The existing environment is a key reason why developers want to invest in our city. And if we want them to do so we must have attitudes that make investors welcome.

We don't agree the city is in a polarised debate about the issue. Whenever we meet with heritage groups we are able to have open conversations about a joint interest – preserving and developing one of the finest cities in Europe. Has this underlying commonality ruled the roost of the planning process? No! Should it? Yes! Do we need a better planning process to make applications run more smoothly? Yes! And it has arrived. It is called the Planning Act Scotland 2006 and it stipulates that community consultation should precede the hearing of applications in the council's planning committee.

It is interesting that Dr Rössler seemed unaware of these provisions. We explained the delays in bringing in regulations to implement the act are occasioned by a lengthy period of consultation – just what has been asked for all along. Dr Rössler told us Unesco has no interest in (or resources to deliver) vetting of planning applications in Edinburgh. Historic Scotland (legally) performs the function of overseeing our historic environment. We will continue to work with that organisation and other heritage bodies.

(Odd how last week the C of C was saying there was a vast gulf I seem to recall...)

29

Rap,

18/11/2008 10:27:09
Well, well, another new turn in the UNESCO saga. Yesterday all is well in Council world, and the planners are wonderful and UNESCO think they are perfect little administrators and now the truth?
Not a surprise, a relief actually. and this is music to my ears :-
"Unesco has also told The Scotsman that its report into the capital's World Heritage site will spell out serious concerns about the impact on Edinburgh's skyline of the Haymarket development, which was called in by the Scottish Government last week."

But you can't help but wonder who is spinning who. It is a farce but I have no doubt the truth will out, eventually.
30

Rap,

18/11/2008 10:33:11
"And it has arrived. It is called the Planning Act Scotland 2006 and it stipulates that community consultation should precede the hearing of applications in the council's planning committee.

It is interesting that Dr Rössler seemed unaware of these provisions. We explained the delays in bringing in regulations to implement the act are occasioned by a lengthy period of consultation – just what has been asked for all along."

Mmm, interesting that the consultation stipulated in the new act did not apply to any of the developments UNESCO came to discuss. And with the planning dept having an attitude that at present consultation is not a right, then it's hardly surprising communities and heritage groups are across a gaping chasm from planners and developers.
31

Buttress,

18/11/2008 10:33:35
Well, no doubt Brian F asked a few leading questions, but I suspect that the gist of this is correct.

"Dr Mechtild Rossler told BBC Scotland news website: "When we looked at developments such as the St James Shopping Centre we thought the plans were positive but we had issues with a development in Haymarket and issues with some processes at Caltongate..."

32

World class concrete,

18/11/2008 10:35:50
What a breathtakingly arrogant statement by Mountgrange: that they're not interested in Unexco's views, and they have no intention of changing anything about the development. It's consistent with their past attitude though.

The WHS is perfectly capable of being added to by high quality building designs which respect their setting (the Scottish Storytelling Centre, for example), but there's no need for listed buildings in good condition to be lost in the process. Caltongate fails on both counts. Unfortunately the area has already been compromised to some extent by the appalling Council headquarters, but that's no reason to add still more inferior and inappropriate buildings.

Who is this city being run for - the people who live in it, or developers? (I fear I know the answer to that).
33

Buttress,

18/11/2008 10:39:34
Of course you can consult - and carefully manipulate how you do it. Focus groups with hand picked reps from the 'community', workshops, caerfully worded questionnaires... Look again at the INVICTA blurb. Read the www.ew8.org.uk spin doctor stuff.Illuminating.

Read the objections by EWH. Consult then ignore.

Of course these concerns will now be claimed to have been dealt with in the government's response to UNESCO, penned by Historic Scotland and the DCMS (which is guarding its own back ...) the new planning act has been brought in, it will all be better in future... and no turning the clock back.

All too late.





34

Duncan in Edinburgh,

18/11/2008 11:14:25
Buttress you really are full of it. You want to say "I told you so"? On what, exactly?

When you said "It is certainly a threat to the WHS"? - http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/caltongatedevelopment/Caltongate----39a.3874147.jp

Or when you said "The WHS was not under threat" - http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/politics?articleid=4700018

Or even when you said that Mountgrange was going to pull out of the project altogether? http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburghplanningissues/Caltongate-clears-last-hurdle-with.4521466.jp

Which of those gems are you so very proud of?
35

bluehead,

edinburgh 18/11/2008 11:19:54
they are not the only ones
,the people of Edinburgh are thoroughly disgusted with this lot that are running the city,
I wouldn't give them ajob selling balloons at a jumble sale,what a pile!!!!!
36

Rap,

18/11/2008 11:20:16
Buttress,
Of course, in our experience, consultation was had (of sorts), a special little booth was erected, and wine was poured. Except that what was discussed during consultation was thrown out when the plans hit the Council's desk. So I assume it ticked boxes, but yet again a development on the same site has received criticisms for it's consultation with the public. Even following criticisms of public consultation for the previous application in a public inquiry. So someone is not listening, or not learning. And now it's going come across as a difficult site to develope on, which in fairness it is because of it's proximity to the WHS, but it's being made more difficult than necessary.
37

Buttress,

18/11/2008 11:24:12
I am proud of them all Duncan.

Situations change. Things happen in the wide world outside these pages.


I didn't say Mountgrange was going to pull out. I said I had heard it rumoured?

Don't flap that hanky. I have lots to do today and haven't time for you doing your Monty Python sketch.

38

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 11:24:13
Playing Devils Advocate, I have 2 questions: (1) Why should world heritage status matter so much in a modern, vibrant, forward looking city and; (2) if the Caltongate development doesn't go ahead what are the alternatives to make use of the large square area of dirt/wasteland that has existed for the last 3 years? Please don't dirct me to other webpages, I'd like somebody to answer in simple laymans terms.
39

Buttress,

18/11/2008 11:35:59
1 I think the answer is in post 18 above.

2 The site can be landscaped, or used as a car park, in the interim, while a Masterplan is developed. Who knows, things like family homes (not serviced flats) and affordable housing could be built on site, the Venture could be brought back into use...

There are ideas out there, but they involved the community, and Mountgrange doesn't want that. Max profit, you see.
40

Buttress,

18/11/2008 11:41:24
36 Rap

Part of the problem lies in the 'hope value'; they pay way over the odds for a site in the hope that they can then make vast pots of cash from a development which isn't suitable! No-one simply wants to make a fair profit any longer. Although in the case of Caltonagte the council is flooging off listed and other buildings and common good land at a knock down price as Mountgrange has said it is 'regenerating' the area.

Oh yes, you can 'consult'. You can ask loaded questions, and get the answers you want, and ignore the objections which don't suit. Old games.
41

Chrislovesbuffy1970,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 11:46:26
#39 - Well, I'm all in favour of affordable housing. Personally, in the longer term I feel the Old Town could also do with more communal space/squares for residents and visitors alike to enjoy - maybe even a little greenspace or local art project would be welcome! Also on a short term basis, the types of things that have taken place in the burnt down Cowgate area, especially during the Festival/Fringe have been inventive, relatively low maintenance and entertaining.
42

Rap,

18/11/2008 11:52:33
Yes Buttress, the filthy lucre is the key. The fact that a hotel was 12 storeys and then when a single hotel chain comes along and demands more rooms then it goes up 5 storeys. No suggestion that another hotel chain might not be so demanding. In fact, a couple of Councillors said they were worried about objecting to the tall hotel in case the hotel chain walked away. Is that really a planning issue to worry about finances?
43

Buttress,

18/11/2008 11:55:03
Yes, some green space, and things which make a genuine community. Of course some commercial development to help make some return on the investment, but this site at the moment seems to be driven simply by a vast commercial scheme. People live in the area and surely a living local community is far better than a hotel and conference centre and offices?

Bring the tenements back into use too! The Ark surely can be used again for some community benefit, instead of using it as a facade only for a five star hotel?

How about some shops, which aren't bistros and coffee chains, even re-use the market building?

Local people (with professional expertise) had ideas. There was an alternative strategy drawn up. But no-one was interested... and so no masterplan apart from the developer driven one.
44

Buttress,

18/11/2008 11:56:24
Rap - I suspect that if the hotel chain walked away, another would come along! Not all are as rapacious. Anyhow, why does it need to be a hotel?
45

Rap,

18/11/2008 12:06:26
No need for a hotel. A lovely green space would be my wish. And with a sympathetic station revamp with the new open concourse they are suggesting, it would be a much nicer place to walk around, for visitors, commuters and residents. But no money to be made in grass. But that's the responsibility of the councillors when being offered a recommendation by the planners. Not worrying about developers £££ but their wards.

In the public hearing the planners stated that the average (not narrowest note) distance between the hotel and office blocks is comparable to the width of Multrees Walk. But, remember, that's not just a lovely public area (or not even), it's also somewhere for tourist buses and lorries and taxis and cars. Not much space to walk along Multrees Walk with a large continental tourist bus on it. But it's the money that matters.
46

Rap,

18/11/2008 12:07:21
I agree Buttress, intercontinental are not the only 5* hotel in the world. I'm sure many others would like to be a station hotel.
47

Buttress,

18/11/2008 12:20:54
Maybe Sofitel could be persuaded... the Caltongate hotel planned is not lovely but it isn't a tower, possibly because it is indeed in the WHS. Tiger seems not to have understood setting, ouv and iconic skylines, unfortunately.


No doubt at the inquiry Murphy and as many of his pals as he can muster will argue it will be a welcome addition to the historic skyline, one fit for this century etc etc. Murphy loves this sort of 'anti-heritage' publicity it seems. Developers have cash to pay for people to spout, and naturally every other architect who will in future want work building high if this goeas ahead will line up to support him, even if behind his back they are out with the knives. Not much honour amongst thieves and some architects?

The proposed skyline policy I think has been watered down. Once the heights have been breached...

It gets so wearying, heard it all before.


48

Arfur,

18/11/2008 12:30:31
Do not agree with the tower in Haymarket.

Think Mountgrange are a bunch of idiots for their response

but have some of you moaning about this been to the Caltongate area?

It is dark and dingy and appart from the occational person passing thru has no one there. This will transform that area.

Why cant developers just design a nice simple looking building on the outside, use old stones and make it modern on the inside?
49

Buttress,

18/11/2008 12:35:12
Em - the main objectors actually live on the Canongate.

Try doing a bit of reading:

www.eh8.org.uk

50

Calum Crubag,

18/11/2008 12:39:17
Mountgrange are a disgrace. How can a London-based company get a free hand at destroying our heritage. Protestors should cause havoc if it goes ahead.

Remember we have Labour to thank for this mess.
51

Calum Crubag,

18/11/2008 12:40:11
#48 - so why can't the cooncil brighten the area without destroying some of it's heritage?
52

Buttress,

18/11/2008 12:46:00
Tessa Jowell Appoints New Commissioners For English Heritage
102/2003

The Secretary of State for Culture, Tessa Jowell, announced today that Maria Adebowale, Joyce Bridges, Bill Bryson, Manish Chande, Lord Douro and Elizabeth Williamson have been appointed as Commissioners of English Heritage with effect from 1 September 2003 for a period of four years.

Tessa Jowell said:


"England's built heritage is of immense importance to us all. It provides fulfilling ways to spend our leisure time, to understand the histories of our ancestors and contributes to a wider social agenda. The new Commissioners will play an integral part in meeting our objectives to make the historic environment more accessible, and increase visits by new users."

Chairman of English Heritage, Sir Neil Cossons said:


"We are delighted to welcome these six new Commissioners to English Heritage. They are all outstanding in their fields. Their knowledge and experience will help us to protect the historic environment for present and future generations and to unleash its enormous potential to enhance the quality of all our lives."

Biographical Notes


Manish Chande
Manish Chande is Chief Executive of Mountgrange Capital plc, an investment company specialising in the property sector. Previously a chartered accountant, he became involved in property investment as Finance Director of Arbuthnot Properties and the Imry Group of Companies. In 1997, he co-established the Trillium Group and was Chief Executive prior to its acquisition by Land Securities plc in 2000. He joined the Board of Land Securities before resigning in 2002 to establish Mountgrange Capital. He has assisted in a number of important historic building restorations in Central London, including the conversion of St George's Hospital, Hyde Park Corner for the Lanesborough Hotel and the Royal Mint on Tower Hill.

53

Buttress,

18/11/2008 12:48:26
Mr Manish Chande

Manish is Chief Executive Officer of Mountgrange, which he joined in 2002 as a 50% owner. He has been in the in real estate business for 28 years.

Previously a Chartered Accountant, he became involved in property investment as Finance Director of Arbuthnot Properties and the Imry Group of Companies. In 1997, he co-established the Trillium Group and was Chief Executive prior to its acquisition by Land Securities plc in 2000. He joined the Board of Land Securities before resigning in 2002 to establish Mountgrange Capital. He has assisted in a number of important historic building restorations in Central London, including the conversion of St George’s Hospital, Hyde Park Corner for the Lanesborough Hotel and the Royal Mint on Tower Hill.

Manish Chande was appointed an English Heritage Commissioner in 2003.
In 2004, he became a Director of English Heritage Trading Ltd. Manish is also a member of the London Advisory Committee and the Business and Finance Committees.

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.11466
54

Arfur,

18/11/2008 12:53:17
49 Buttress - I said the moaners on this site. You will see that they are not all from this area - if you did a bit of reading!
55

Buttress,

18/11/2008 12:56:58
It's a World Heritage Site. Belongs to everyone.

56

Neale,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 13:19:17
City of Edinburgh Council - are you listening? This kind of arrogance will lead to a fall. If you think that you are above both the law and the voters then do so at your peril. People who thought they were untouchable have recently collected their P45’s and this includes politicians as well as bankers.

So now the Haymarket development has been ‘called in’ by the Scottish Government. I hope they are more honest than they were when resuscitating Mr Trumps’ plan. Voters have long memories and I’m sure the SNP just need to hear the word Glenrothes to remind them things can change. Take the genuine outrage at the Haymarket plan for what it is real honest disapproval and disgust at a hideous development where cash seems to be King.
57

Rap,

18/11/2008 13:29:41
Neale, I'm with you there mate. But I'm not convinced the reason Haymarket was called in was purely on the basis on public opinion and Scottish Executive planner common sense. It has been suggested that timing has played a serendipitous part in this, with the UNESCO visit, Trump's shoo-in (thanks Alex), credit crunch, etc, and I have to agree, unfortunately. It would be nice to think that it was purely down to someone in the Executive seeing sense, so we could always rely on the fact they'd be the last bastion of poor planning, but it's more worrying that it probably isn't the case.

Still, an inquiry is an inquiry, but it is just a shame that it's too late for Caltongate, but it does set a new standard for St. James Centre and Haymarket Station redevelopment. I hope.
58

Old Town Resident,

edinburgh 18/11/2008 14:21:27
watch our very own planning leader Jim Lowrie in action at
www.independentrepublicofthecanongate.blogspot.com
59

Buttress,

18/11/2008 14:32:17
Wonderful!

Thanks for that - isn't youtube useful!


60

Buttress,

18/11/2008 14:40:15
And thanks for the link to the INVICTA site:

"What We Did
Invicta Public Affairs provided a full political, community and media engagement programme, including dealing with an organisedand determined militant campaign group, Save Our Old Town. The
core element of our approach was to launch a full frontal public engagement campaign with the local and wider Edinburgh Old Town community. One critical element of this was the establishment of the
Caltongate Liaison Group, which brought together representatives from over 20 local and city-wide stakeholder groups who met on a quarterly basis to review and input into the proposals. Regular media
coverage of each new aspect of the scheme was carefully controlledand coordinated by Invicta along with the ongoing engagement with local and national politicians. MORI Scotland was also engaged to
conduct a public opinion survey - which provided robust results on what the public felt about the development plans - to present to local stakeholders and politicians. Media interest in this project was high and Invicta had to provide a proactive media briefing to keep on top of the campaign group opposing the development.

What We Achieved
The Caltongate project requires the demolition of two C-listed buildings, the Canongate Venture and the Sailors Ark, as well as delivering a major development project in a UNESCO World Heritage site. In addition, it involves removal of existing tenements
on Edinburgh’s Royal Mile. Despite these debits to Edinburgh’s heritage, which created much objection in the local area as well as an organised protest group, the credits achieved by the development to what is essentially a run-down part of Edinburgh and a derelict
former bus depot were ultimately effectively conveyed to the local and wider Edinburgh community as well as local stakeholders and politicians. Thanks to Invicta’s contribution, the planning committee
of the City of Edinburgh Council voted with an overwhelming majority in favou
61

Buttress,

18/11/2008 14:41:10
cont favour of the Caltongate development concept. This decision was
then ratified by the Scottish Government and a public inquiry was avoided. The detailed delivery of the project will now commence and Invicta are fully engaged by Mountgrange to assist with that process
and maintain public, political and media support..."

Organised and militant eh?

But oh dear the PR spinners spinning...

http://www.invictapa.co.uk/casestudy_mountgrange.pdf
62

Buttress,

18/11/2008 14:42:22
"With Invicta’s support and excellent tactical implementation, we have effectively strengthened our
ties with the community and earned the support of key stakeholders. Invicta has a professional
and forward-thinking team who understood our issues and worked skilfully with our team to help
us sidestep landmines. We are delighted with the positive results of multiple planning applications
being approved for our signature Caltongate project in Edinburgh. Our business objectives were
achieved and our expectations exceeded."

Nick Berry, Partner, Mountgrange Capital

Smirk.
63

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 14:44:14
http://www.architecturescotland.co.uk/features/241/Power_100.html

Many congratulations to Allan Murray, number 2 on the Prospect Power list of the most infleuntial designers in Scotland. Well done too Alan Dunlop, Richard Murphy and Malcolm Fraser.
64

Neale,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 15:00:54
I agree it may be too late for some developments (developments? I actually mean building sites!) If you do want to make a point about plans for the Haymarket Supersized site being called in by the Scottish Govt, contact the Directorate for Planning and Environmental Appeals can be accessed at
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Built-Environment/planning/decisions-appeals/Appeals/ContactUs/Q/editmode/on/forceupdate/on

The Directorate for Planning and Environmental Appeals suggested anyone could write to: jayne.hollas@scotland.gsi.gov.uk

Do it now instead of moaning about it after the event.
65

Rap,

18/11/2008 15:05:33
Hope you aren't referring to me moaning after the event Neale? Believe me, I'm already on the list of people who will be having my say. And I have a lot to say. I'd like to think my little contribution helped get the call in, a long with lots of other residents, but I'm not convinced a lot of luck and timing didn't help.
66

Rap,

18/11/2008 15:07:47
I would also add that the Planning Advisor at the Executive has said they haven't yet transferred the files to the Built Environment team, and it is likely to take a couple of weeks. So, don't expect any instant responses as they probably haven't got a funationing team for the inquiry yet.
67

Buttress,

18/11/2008 15:14:39
Inquiries take a long time to put it all together.

68

Neale,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 15:16:13
No Rap, your comments were appreciated. I was reminding other readers that direct action speaks louder than post event groans. Forward the e-mail address to all your contacts once it has been passed over. If not it will likely get a rubber stamp.
69

Buttress,

18/11/2008 15:17:59
63

Yes well, it's all a spot subjective.

Wish Mr Wilson would get his rants/ stories from somewhere other than the Evening News though, then they might even be accurate.

70

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 15:21:52
I'll now look forward to seeing Caltongate complete

1. What have been your key achievements in the past year?
2. What are your ambitions for the future?
3. What are your fears for the future?
4. What will be the next big thing in your sector?
5. Who is your business role model? And why?
6. Who is your favourite architect and why?

Allan Murray
Managing Director, Allan Murray Architects


1. We have been concentrating on steering some major projects through the complex consultative planning process.

2. I spent a lot of my formative years in America, and we've always had an ambition to do some projects there. Closer to home, however, it is important that we deliver some of the urban design and public spaces that we've been working on over the past four or five years.

3. Less a fear and more a concern that the terms of the debate on the future shape of Scotland are currently too narrow, prejudicing a particular aesthetic view over everything else. Scotland faces some very significant challenges in the coming decades, not just economic. I think we as a society need to be in better intellectual shape to address these.

4. At Caltongate, in the heart of the Old Town, we are going to build the Uk's biggest ground source heating and cooling system to provide energy to several buildings. There is no doubt we will see a significant drive for more energy efficiency buildings in the coming years. An interesting question is how this is going to manifest itself in urban design and architecture and how many of the nascent technologies prove themselves in practice.

5. We don't have one we just get on with it.

6. My old professor at Harvard Rafael Moneo continues to be a strong influence. He is a quiet, thoughtful man with a great intellect. His critique of architects and architecture is always carefully considered and balanced.
71

Buttress,

18/11/2008 15:26:57
Yeah, read it, you some relation?

That's Allan 'Caltongate or Edinburgh will die' Murray. Allan 'Omni' Murray.

Yawn.

It's such a pity that the GSHP won't be powering the 'affordable housing' though. The poor folk have been shuffled off site to another bit near the railway.

Well, they might hang the washing oot in the 'public' square, and put folks off their Starbucks.

72

Rap,

18/11/2008 15:30:51
Hey, Studio Space, we've all declared our interests in these developments, what's yours eh?
73

It's me!,

18/11/2008 15:40:01
Time for a judicial review
74

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 15:40:17
Many good wishes also to Mountgrange and to Richard Murphy at Haymarket and for a succesful conclusion to his proposals.
75

Rap,

18/11/2008 15:44:58
Jackanory, Jackanory
76

Buttress,

18/11/2008 15:46:13
Oh yawn yawn yawn.

It will be interesting to see which of Murphy's pals turn up at the inquiry. Maybe some of those who supported his house too, by writing (perfectly legally) to the planning authority in support.

Some of them seemed also to be employed by him I recall reading here.

Yes, I can see them all, Dunlop, Murray and Fraser etc turning up at the inquiry in support of Tiger Tower...

Now didn't some design review body or other say it was not really that great? Or am I mistaken?














77

Seb,

18/11/2008 15:47:36
If only Allan M were as good as Rafael Moneo, if only... but he is trying to ape him on the Sth Bridge. Doesn't pull it off, but he's trying.
78

Buttress,

18/11/2008 15:57:34
http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/dailynews/ads_raises_haymarket_concerns_for_third_time.html
79

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 16:02:32
Thanks also to Dr Mechtild Rossler

World Heritage Status Red Herring
As predicted Edinburgh's WHS is not threatened (if it was lost UNESCO would lose its leverage, simple). Unesco delegates announced 15 Nov 2008 that the capital's status was safe.

Inspectors visited Edinburgh w/c 10 Nov. They investigated planned demolition of two listed buildings. But the status of the Scottish capital was declared to be out of danger after UNESCO's Dr Rossler said the demolition was an "exceptional" situation.

Dr Mechtild Rossler (Unesco World Heritage Centre chief), said she was satisfied with controversial plan to demolish two C-listed buildings at Calton Gate:-

Alan Dunlop

What is extraordinary is that such self selected groups are permitted to quality assure our built environment in the face of statutory, democratic and architectural principles.

By focusing only on the need to protect heritage and seeming to disregard all else, these organisations inhibit the proper functioning of the planning process. Moreover their drive to preserve particular buildings or city areas in aspic is insular, self seeking and regressive.

Cities are living organisms. They need to change and to adapt to different times. It is inherently dangerous to gift their development to small coteries who aim to restrict their growth to the shape of the past.

and Paul Tanner

“By definition World Heritage Sites are must-see locations that provide an experience that cannot be found anywhere else” is a great exaggeration. Goodness – sites on the “List” contain as many as 152 current and former cathedrals and there are something like 100 inscribed European towns alone - including many Michelin 1 and 2** towns which you would think twice about leaving the auto-route to see! But not :- Amsterdam, Dublin, Cambridge or many others which also provide “unique experiences”. Indeed Cambridge is quoted as declining to go for inscription because of the downsides (“The Politics of World Heritag
80

Rap,

18/11/2008 16:04:58
Ah, no surprise if you read the ADS comments as they came out. But I still had to listen to a Tiger person tell me ADS supported their plans. Not sure how he convinced himself that report was support, but he was happy. But that headline makes it quite explicit. Thank you Buttress.
81

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 18/11/2008 16:08:38
Buttress

Good morning, madame.

As usual, you are ever helpful in these matters and I will go over AGAIN your postings since they contain so much information and cross-references that are helpful to we who are not as knowlegeable as thee.

Were you able to go to WIKIPEDIA and the OTTAWA article?

There are some fabulous photos there and I have gone to Wikipedia on Edinburgh and Glasgow and they are ALMOST as well-researched.

I was not, at first attempt, to get to the article in The Times that you cited but I AM persistent and anything recommended by you MUST be apt.

It is snowing here with rain to come after and I think I will bake a chicken or two with dumplings to get me out of my doldrums.

PLEASE have a stress-free and glorious day, m'dear.
82

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 16:10:04
Yes indeed, thank you buttress. Could'nt have been done without you
83

Rap,

18/11/2008 16:10:11
Studio Space, forgive me for asking, but can you actually read as well as Ctrl C and Ctrl V? Like the article at the top of this page? Thought not.

Try and copy all the waffle you want. Haymarket is up for public inquiry. Spin on that 17 storey tower.
84

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:10:40
Yeah well - related to Welsh and Tanner are you?

Such a pity quite a lot of that ranting over there is wildly inaccurate. Shame that the quotes are from a newspaper and not what was actually said at the press call, isn't it?

The WHS was never on the danger list, and it was an investigative mission, that's all.

Doesn't of course mean it won't be in future, but at the moment it's safe.

Tanner's (remind me who he is again?) stuff is hugely amusing. Well, he's entitled to his opinion.

Shame that the self-selected Mr Dunlop got so much very wrong too. He did make rather a t*t of himself over that. Should do his homework.



85

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:12:06
Thank you Tim. I have been very busy but will catch up soon.

86

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:21:51
Perhaps Mr Dunlop should do some reading:


http://www.ukworldheritage.org.uk/
87

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:24:10
And you know, we as a nation, via our elected government, seem somehow to have signed this, and actually be part of UNESCO:

http://whc.unesco.org/?cid=175



88

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 16:32:37
But most of all many thanks and congratulations to the rational people of this wonderful city, councillors of course included.
89

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:35:22
I'd give up now sunshine, before we all vomit.

90

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 16:38:13
.........and Neil Baxter obviously
91

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 16:42:59
well put

Neil Baxter, the secretary of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland, said: "We are concerned over recent sabre-rattling from Unesco, particularly their threat to withdraw World Heritage status unless major planning decisions address their specific requirements. The careful conservation of the best of the past must be set alongside judicious new development within the weave of the city. Unesco is a hugely important force for good, but we allow it to become the arbiter of the future of the capital at our peril."
92

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:46:35
He did. It was very early though, and he had Malcolm Cooper of Historic Scotland with him I gather. That may have put him off his stride.

Shame he got it so wrong also. I do wish he had done his homework too. Made the RIAS look a bit silly. Should have asked Cooper what it was all about.

It was all on the telly you know.
93

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:54:20
That's the Historic Scotland, arm of Scottish Giovernment, by the way, which invited the UNESCO delegation. You know, as part of the international organisation of which the UK is a member.

I suspect Mr Cooper put Neil Baxter right on a few things later.

That's a problem with some in Scotland, you see - lacking in a global perspective.

94

Buttress,

18/11/2008 16:56:56
"We are concerned over recent sabre-rattling from Unesco, particularly their threat to withdraw World Heritage status unless major planning decisions address their specific requirements."

In fact - no such thing was ever said by UNESCO. Shame that he really didn't do his reserach before spouting. I am sure RIBA would know better.

95

Studio Space,

18/11/2008 17:02:13
But most of all thanks to Adam Wilkinson the Director of Edinburgh World Heritage and his team of experts for bringing UNESCO here to sort things out and leaving all edinburgers looking like 18th century dopes.

Happy Days
96

Buttress,

18/11/2008 17:14:44
But it wasn't Adam Wilkinson at all, wrong again. Nothing to do with EWH.

Try ICOMOS-UK and then the UNESCO summit from 2008 summer.

Gosh what a total dope you are!
97

Studio Space,

Edinburgh 18/11/2008 17:23:54
Did I mention Charles McKean by the way?
98

Buttress,

18/11/2008 17:24:14
It's sad though, how unenlightened so many in Edinburgh are isn't it, when it comes to world heritage issues? Especially many in the the developer / architect 'community'.


Still I think Seb wanted an argument with you abot Allan Murray and you ignored him. Poor Seb. He must be really miffed.

It will be interesting to read the UNESCO mission report. They did have a busy few days, and many 'stakeholders' had a chance to meet them and put across their views. That included Mountgrange.
99

Buttress,

18/11/2008 17:25:38
But why? He had nothing at all to do with bringing UNESCO here, did he?




100

Stirling Sentinel,

Stirling 18/11/2008 17:28:04
I am somewhat surprised that the Cockburn Society do not seem to have been involved in these developments. I assume they must have a view. What is it?
101

Buttress,

18/11/2008 17:29:21
Anyhow Studio Space, I really have an engagement with a glass of wine, and some friends, (know what those are?) in of all things a studio space, so maybe you can play with yourself for a while?

You could try seeking out all 400 plus people who apparently wrote to UNESCO and posting about those, too.

Or there's always Tim in Ottawa , who can tell you all about the architecture there. Sounds to me like you really need some lessons. I'm sure you two will get along just fine.
102

Buttress,

18/11/2008 17:32:56
100 The Cockburn Association made comments as they are entitled to, as is anyone, and indeed as the Civic Society for Edinburgh I believe are statutory consultees.

I think certain of their observations are on the website.

But as with all this, planning is decided in the end by the councillors.

So here we are back to Coun Jim Lowrie and his merry band.

103

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 18/11/2008 19:41:31
# 101 Buttress

You do me an injustice, madam.

One merely has to got to WIKIPEDIA and enter "OTTAWA" and all will be revealed.

I knows nothin' 'bout nothin' BUT I know WHERE ta get thinformation.

I think I am sinking into my South Carolina persona where my father lived at Mytrle
Bbeach before he died.

Wonderfully gracious and gentl folk and miles and miles of white sand beaches and OODLES of golf courses.

I refused to caddy for Father but preferred to hold court at the club house.

My father was furious with me! C'est la vie, papa.

My dear Buttress

I am going to do some more research into Caltongate and try to remember if I passed through there whilst attending university at Durham (on holidays and other special occasions, d'accord).
104

radge dug,

18/11/2008 20:42:36
This is a typical Edinburgh Cooncil mess. Mountgrange too should be shown the door for their disrespect. Unesco command more respect than some London cowboys.

CEC - stop this now!
105

Howard Moon,

18/11/2008 23:07:44
This is one of the saddest threads I have ever read in my life.

Honestly.

Champagne socialists congratulating themselves on another miserable defeat.

"We are preparing a detailed report on all the issues on the different proposals but we will not be recommending that Edinburgh loses its World Heritage status."

EEN headline - 'Unesco slams city'.

The UNESCO lot could have released a statement saying 'Edinburgh is the greatest city in the world, and we think the new developments currently underway will make it even better - they are all perfect and Buttress and her couple of friends are completely ignorant and driven by petty self interest'; and this rag would still have reported it a 'damning verdict' and Buttress would have posted 'I told you so' and 'you could have read this on eh8 last week' 60 times before dinner.

As an aside, why on earth were they visiting Leith docks anyway? I thought they had come regarding the WHS?

Again, one of the saddest threads I have ever read in my life.
106

mad moo,

edinburgh 18/11/2008 23:19:36
Hi Buttress,
glad to see you've been busy today...
I have just been busy laughing at the clip of Jim Lowrie on You Tube it is pure class particularly after reading the article above....

"Jim Lowrie, Edinburgh city council's planning leader, admitted the local authority could be left in a "tricky position" if the council's handling of Mountgrange was strongly criticised and asked for a response."

I wonder if Trevor 'the finger' Davies (former planning convenor) is feeling as embarassed as Jim considering he was the one to set up the whole deal/masterplan/objections and breakdown of planning integrity in Edinburgh.

Someone should let Glasgow Uni know what kind of a fool they have given an Honorary degree to in Urban Studies of all things!
107

Rap,

18/11/2008 23:29:12
Only sad because you have joined in Howard. Yesterday the Scotsman produced an apparently contradictory article, so can hardly be accused of taking sides on this. Flip flopping I think is the political term for it. Still, have quotes, will print :-

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/edinburghplanningissues/Capital-to-retain-heritage-status.4699441.jp

And you should know that people need to look into and out of the WHS, so if the view from the castle is a 40 storey skyscraper then UNESCO have a right to consider it. Even you could have worked that out for yourself, if you'd really tried.
108

Buttress,

18/11/2008 23:36:40

Yes, mad moo, all good clean fun, eh? Truth will out as they say - eventually, the spinning stops. A spot tricky, as Jim Lowrie says!

I too wonder if Trevor the Finger ( he may be even one of those posting here, you know) feels any slight sense of unease.

It was even rumoured he was at the Lord Provost's reception bending the UNESCO ears, although as I wasn't there of course I can't say for sure, although I am sure he wasn't drinking champagne, surely?

I presume the drinks there weren't paid for by Mountgrange - remember the four grand donation they made to the labour party to host a champagne reception? Not of course connected in any way with Caltongate ;-)

Still, others did manage to meet the UNESCO mission. Seems they were given a fair hearing.
109

Buttress,

18/11/2008 23:41:16
Oh, Rap, I think Howard is just in a bad mood, he's obviously forgotten he's not posting as Septic Tank today.

Ignorant, mmmm, no, petty self interest? Not sure why that should be either, but then logic isn't his thing I think. He gets a bit confused.

I think the difference between yesterday's article and today's may have been a journalist who bothered to speak in person to Dr Rossler.
110

Howard Moon,

18/11/2008 23:46:49
Sorry Buttress. These are genuine facts:

1. Howard Moon has never posted as anyone but Howard Moon. Ever.

2. Buttress has accused HM of being more than 10 different people.

3. Buttress and her couple of allies think that by hitting these forums with 100s of posts, all saying the same thing, people with influence will assume that is the majority view and therefore will legislate accordingly.

4. That hasn't happened.

Sorry! Btw, the UNESCO folks did give everyone a fair hearing, on that you were 100% correct. Very pleasant by all accounts, too.
111

Buttress,

19/11/2008 00:01:55
Genuine facts as opposed to fake facts?

People with influence do seem to be realising that all is not well in Edinburgh, don't they? See article above.

There is legislation, it's just it isn't always applied, or at least understood.

Yes, so I gather. I wasn't there myself, but know several who were. They seemed to find it all useful.


112

mad moo,

edinburgh 19/11/2008 00:18:35
Pleased to hear Mark saying its all to go ahead as planned......that will mean that the replacement housing and Ark facility must be starting construction soon on Calton Road. I remember the Planning committee gave consent to this in Sept 2007, before the hearing on all the other applications in Febuary 2008.
Consent was granted to facilitate the early delivery of this part of the affordable housing, 'before any other part of the development'
Funny no sign of activity on Calton Road other than the demolition of another warehouse beside the graveyard.....when does the archaeology/decontamination of Calton Road sites begin?

Surely not after more demolitions on the Canongate!
113

mad moo,

edinburgh 19/11/2008 00:26:08
When did this become a £300m development?

It was advertised for pre-let tender as £180m in 2007

Who is going to fund it anyway....can't imagine any investor wanting to be associated with such a sordid story especially when developments in Edinburgh are struggling in the present economic climate?
114

Buttress,

19/11/2008 00:27:33
I do at times wonder if Mark actually has a clue what he's talking about... of course now that he's not part of PPS, no-one has his hand up his rear so it must surely be all his own spin!

I'm sure that low-cost housing and community facility will be very welcome though. Maybe the council could ask Mountgrange what's happening there?

Oh, I'm sure the council will have it all tied down, to ensure nothing on the Canongate is demolished before contracts etc are signed and all cash in place to replace. They couldn't allow, surely, valuable gap sites which could be sold on once the historic buildings have vanished?

Look at what a good job they are making of the trams, it will all be fine.





115

Buttress,

19/11/2008 00:31:24
I think the numbers are plucked fom the ether - along with the jobs claim. I think a contract is in place with Sofitel but that will have been part of allowing demolitions.

The harsh reality is that a five star hotel, conference centre, offices and serviced flats along with a bit of retail is hardly what will be a huge success in the current financial climate, and I think hardly for the forseeable future either. It's all such an outdated concept.



116

Rap,

19/11/2008 10:23:26
Howard,
People are entitled to have opinions that differ to your own. And they are also entitled to access to public forums, such as this, as do people who have differing opinions. All is fair in love in war. Nothing is being organised against you, just people who feel passionately about a subject who wish to share their views. The people who need to be persuaded are dealt with outside of this forum, such as MPs, MSPs, Councillors, UNESCO, etc. OK?

You do need to be careful about making sweeping statements about who is in the majority though. You have absolutely no evidence of any Edinburgh wide public opinion one way or the other. However, Buttress and I, and others on here, who feel strongly about these developments have spoken to community groups, residents and know what the majority feel is in our areas and they do not agree with you. You can say that the majority of Councillors agree with you since they approved the plans, but as they are neither qualified planners nor truly representative of their ward members, unfortunately, then this doesn't hold a huge amount of weight amongst the public. Particularly the Haymarket development which is now going to review the Councillor's decision and assess the national impact of the application.
117

Buttress,

19/11/2008 11:29:48
Coun Rose seems to be having problems grasping what's going on though:

http://cameronrose.blogspot.com/

118

Rap,

20/11/2008 09:10:45
He's made an interesting response to comeonebody's comment :-

"Having had the opportunity to input into the process leading up to that decision, some people, perhaps yourself included, not accepting the process for resolving differing views, have attempted to have the decision overturned by effectively appealing to UNESCO. That suggests to me a lack of perspective of the effect of the projects. It also suggests a reluctance to accept the legitimacy of the views of others. Of course you have a right to object to the planning applications. That was done and can I assure you those objections were considered with much care and attention. Of course you have a right to petition UNESCO. That doesn't seem to me to exhibit a particularly graceful approach to the views and decisions of others. You may have a right to petition them but they don't actually have a say after the decision is taken.
"
119

Buttress,

20/11/2008 09:31:57
What a remarkable failure of understanding of why UNESCO was here, and its role regarding World Heritage Sites.

I think he'd be surprised at how much influence UNESCO can have.

And what breathaking arrogance to dismiss so lightly the views of people with international expertise, from a body of which this country is a member!



120

Rap,

20/11/2008 10:29:59
Well, I was sceptical about the legitimacy of the Planning Committee's views to start with, now I'm just in despair. He sounds like his nose it out of joint about someone daring to question his decisions - how dare they! Guess there won't be any learning process there then.
121

Buttress,

20/11/2008 10:50:05
Possibly, after so many blog comments, and rising, he might ask EWH, Historic Scotland, ICOMOS-UK or the DCMS?

All the information is available to the public.

122

Buttress,

20/11/2008 11:01:45
In fact the idea of inviting officials from UNESCO to both Bath and Edinburgh had been rumbling along in the background for a while before the 2008 conference, although that formalised things.

The State Party invited the mission on the 26th June?

I know from FOI requests though that an invitation to UNESCO was brewing (the DCMS trying to calm down growing discontent I think... pinch -the word n.i.p cannot be posted here lol!- in the bud ... a bit of schmoozing as it knows all is not well in the world of national legal protection of WHS... ) even before that.

However, the documentation, which has an element of covering of backs, can be read here:

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/news/news_article.htm?articleid=21081


PDF at page bottom.

Other reports re summer international conference are available on the UNESCO website.

123

Rap,

20/11/2008 11:06:32
4 comments now - excellent! Looks like he's not that used to getting comments, although planning issues always seem to generate a response. I may join the party!
124

Rap,

20/11/2008 11:42:07
Haymarket wasn't included on their original list of developments to consider though because of the timing of the application decision. How do you think that was added - would DCMS have asked them to add it on to their itinerary do you think? For what whatever reason it was added, I'm glad it was. More uproar if they hadn't of course - conspiracy theories would abound.
125

Buttress,

20/11/2008 11:48:23
Yes it was notified, see letter from DCMS April, page 4 from that link above, and annexe, although naturally it was deemed that all was well... UNESCO clearly decided to come and see as DCMS/HS reports and reality don't always coincide.

;-)
126

Rap,

20/11/2008 11:48:57
I couldn't quite work out the timing when I first read the planning briefing, because the briefing doc still states 16 storeys, but no mention of a planning decision although it does mention planners are minded to be granted, which pinpoints it to middle of June. But with a conveniently incorrect number of storeys. So, it just missed their conference but must have been on the backburner anyway, even during the planning hearing for it. Interesting. Despite this being brought up by those speaking at the hearing, it was never really discussed by Councillors as part of their decision making, but they must have known it was brewing. Blinkered?
127

Rap,

20/11/2008 11:58:38
Oh yes, I didn't pay attention to that date before! April! And as far as you know, is this the first time they had formally mentioned Caltongate to UNESCO?
128

Buttress,

20/11/2008 12:03:56
I think the council thought all was fine (not councillors as I think they really haven't a wider view) as Historic Scotland was happily saying so... it may have altered its view now though. It may be realising that giving cosy chats to the C of C on how it's OK to demolish listed buildings etc really isn't a view shared by all.

Yes that was I understand the first time Caltongate had been raised formally.



129

Buttress,

20/11/2008 12:08:09
Letters today:

http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Look-after-those-who-live.4713458.jp
130

Buttress,

20/11/2008 12:15:34
Let's also remember this little storm:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article4596547.ece

While certain details in that article aren't correct, the fact is there was an outcry from people like Murphy, the Chamber of Commerce (friend of developers...) etc.

A perfectly reasonable request from a UNESCO official that projects and decisions notified to UNESCO with a potential impact on the OUV of the WHS be held off until the UNESCO mission was met with an adolescent 'no-one is telling us what to do!' attitude, which seems to still be going on in the minds of certain councillors with no idea beyond the parish pump.
131

Rap,

20/11/2008 13:15:25
Yes I saw Murphy's response to Mr Matsuura's comment. And you are right, his response, and that of Cllr Rose does appear to be more about not being told what to do (even though that is not the case) than actually learning from what someone independent from the politics in Edinburgh is telling them.
132

Rap,

20/11/2008 13:18:49
Seen this story?

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Plug-to-be-pulled-on.4713492.jp

"It comes as figures obtained by the Evening News show that the city council has so far banked just £3m of the £25m it planned to raise from developers' contributions for the first part of the project. "

Not that there is any pressure on the Council's planning committee to approve developments along the tram route of course.
133

Buttress,

20/11/2008 13:19:41
Another who last week spouted on TV radio aetc:

Neil Baxter, the secretary of the Royal Incorporation of Architects in Scotland, said: "We are concerned over recent sabre-rattling from Unesco, particularly their threat to withdraw World Heritage status unless major planning decisions address their specific requirements. The careful conservation of the best of the past must be set alongside judicious new development within the weave of the city. Unesco is a hugely important force for good, but we allow it to become the arbiter of the future of the capital at our peril."


A distinct failure of understanding, or simply keeping in with those he thinks he should?

134

Buttress,

20/11/2008 13:24:23
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7305597.stm

I hope Ron Hewitt isn't a gambling man.
135

Rap,

20/11/2008 13:31:11
"The careful conservation of the best of the past must be set alongside judicious new development within the weave of the city".

I think everyone agrees with this don't they? The problem comes when new development results in sacrificing careful conservation of the best of the past for no good reason.

And this from Cllr Rose :-

"That suggests to me a lack of perspective of the effect of the projects."

Apart from being inaccurate and arrogant, perhaps the problem is that the architects and developers and councillors feel they all know what is best for our city and don't need to consult, explain, listen and learn from what us humble residents want? And then they get threatened when an organisation that we chose to get into bed dares to questions the wisdom of their decisions.
136

Buttress,

20/11/2008 13:37:17
It suggests to me that Coun Rose has little idea. He's the man who was happy to help prevent an area from being declared a conservation area.

He's not really much time for heritage issues, sadly.

I note a lack of comment about the criticism from UNESCO. He seems to think as the council put forward Edinburgh for WHS staus, then it can ask for it to be removed too.

He might find the UK government disagrees, and will do all it can to mitigate criticism.



137

Rap,

20/11/2008 14:37:35
Well, considering the committee he works on, he is surprising dismissive of WHS. Even if he doesn't approve, it's a little shocking to read he thinks he can just choose to disassociate himself, and Edinburgh from it. He's lucky I'm not in his ward,
138

Buttress,

20/11/2008 14:48:53
He also voted for this:

http://news.scotsman.com/edinburghplanningissues/Historic-cinema-faces-threat-of.4626769.jp
139

Rap,

20/11/2008 15:59:51
I did see that decision, and the matter of fact way he commented on his blog. I haven't seen the Development Sub-committee minutes on it to see how they attempted to justify knocking it down. I'll have to dig it out. Must be quite some justification.
140

Buttress,

20/11/2008 16:07:23
Probably because, bizarrely, the officer's report recommended it!

I do wonder at times about these people...
141

Buttress,

20/11/2008 17:42:21
News:

http://whc.unesco.org/en/news/473

 

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