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We'll change the law to strip Sir Fred of his pension, vows Harman

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Published Date: 02 March 2009
PRESSURE on Sir Fred Goodwin to surrender a substantial proportion of his £693,000 annual pension intensified yesterday when Labour's deputy leader signalled that the government was prepared to change the law to recover the cash.
Harriet Harman said the former Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive had received "money for nothing" when he quit the bank last October and vowed: "The government will take action."

The scale of Sir Fred's pension pot emerged last week when RBS announced the biggest loss in UK corporate history, having amassed debts of £24.1 billion for 2008.

Sir Fred, 50, receives about £13,000 a week after his pension pot was doubled to £16 billion as part of a severance deal.

But finance experts yesterday suggested the true value of his pension pot could be as much as £32.7 million.

He also continues to receive personal security provided by RBS – which the shadow chancellor, George Osborne, yesterday said should cease, as it was no longer appropriate for the service to be provided at taxpayers' expense.

Ms Harman picked up on earlier demands from Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, for Sir Fred to voluntarily repay part of the pension, which he has so far refused to do.

Sir Fred said the deal was signed off by Treasury minister Lord Myners last October.

The peer, a former senior City figure who insists that he believed Sir Fred was getting only what the bank was legally required to pay, faced mounting pressure himself yesterday.

Mr Osborne said the minister's future was "hanging by a thread" and challenged him to either produce a convincing explanation of his role or resign.

The shadow chancellor said he backed the use of "any legal measure" to recoup part of Sir Fred's pension, but accused ministers of acting too late and trying to divert attention from their own responsibility.

Ms Harman's threat came amid reports that Lloyds Banking Group, which is currently 43 per cent in public control, had been told to rethink proposed staff bonuses totalling about £120 million before asking the government to underwrite billions of its "toxic" assets.

Ms Harman said in relation to Sir Fred's pension:

"The Prime Minister has said it's not acceptable, therefore it will not be accepted. It might be enforceable in a court of law but it's not acceptable in the court of public opinion, therefore the government will take action." Ms Harman refused to say how the government, which holds a 68 per cent stake in RBS, would recover the cash. But she said Sir Fred's deal was "being crawled over by the lawyers".

She added: "The Prime Minister has been quite emphatic about this. He (Sir Fred] is not going to be better off by £650,000 a year as a result of bringing a bank to the brink of collapse, threatening jobs and needing public money to be brought in."

However, there was scepticism over the government's ability to pass a new law to effectively take revenge on Sir Fred, who has become the nation's principal hate figure for the global banking crisis.

John Quigley, head of employment law at solicitors William Sturges, said the severance deal was a private contractual matter between RBS and Sir Fred, and would be difficult to scrap in the absence of him being found guilty of a criminal offence.

Mr Quigley said: "I think it's almost certain there must have been a compromise agreement between RBS and Sir Fred. That is a contract between the company and him. It is a private matter, and ordinary contract law applies. It's very difficult to get out of that.

"There is all this talk of legislation, but it seems a hugely heavy-handed approach. It seems the government is trying to make an example of somebody rather than trying to recover money."

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' Treasury spokesman, also questioned whether a change in the law was practical.

Ministers 'had other options for HBOS'

THE controversial takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB was under renewed scrutiny yesterday after it emerged that alternatives were considered by the UK government.

A secret dossier apparently shows other proposals that could have safeguarded HBOS as an independent bank – albeit one requiring a temporary taxpayer-funded bail-out – were under consideration at the time of the Lloyds takeover.

Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, has always insisted the takeover was the only option to save HBOS, and last month said the government merely assisted in a deal wanted by the shareholders of both banks.

The takeover was completed in January after Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, agreed to set aside competition rules. The merged institution, known as Lloyds Banking Group, now controls more than a quarter of UK mortgages and personal accounts.

It was reported yesterday that copies of the takeover papers still existed. Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats' Treasury spokesman, called for the papers to be published to shed light on the "murky dealings" surrounding the takeover, which generated substantial concern in Scotland.

Mr Cable said: "Now the takeover has gone through and we know the extent of HBOS's losses, there would seem to be no longer any need for secrecy."

Stewart Hosie, the SNP's Treasury spokesman, said the UK government's involvement in the deal had "long aroused concern".

"The clear evidence from the Financial Services Authority that there was an alternative throws even more doubt on government claims it was the only option," he said.

Goodwin the scapegoat is godsend for government

THE government clearly does need people to focus attention away from them, writes Mark Borkowski.

If they can, in some way, have a witch-hunt, not just on Fred Goodwin but other members of the banking community who are also sitting on pretty hefty pensions, that clearly helps.

We all want a scapegoat. Unfortunately, scapegoats turn out to be just a passing focus of attention.

In these situations, Sir Fred needs a meaningful dialogue and he needs to find some media friends. But nobody in the media is going to befriend this person because he is going to be vilified.

He is making it very difficult for the banks to recover trust. I think that is something that must have the government tearing their hair out.

No-one believes Sir Fred is the single reason for the downturn. It would be foolish to focus on him, but we do need to see certain people in that position feeling pain. After all, the average bloke in the street is probably fearing he's going to lose his job.

It's a godsend to the government, really.

If this goes on, Goodwin will continue to be the conversation. But we all know that something in the news that is focused on one man will eventually disappear. The public anger will still be focused on the government.

No matter what Gordon Brown says about global economic considerations and the subprime market in America, the economy will still be a millstone around the government's necks.

• Mark Borkowski is a public relations, media commentator and blogger at: www.markborkowski.com




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1

,

01/03/2009 23:36:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

oh pedeStriaN laP sheep (anag),

02/03/2009 00:15:29
She really is a commie. Who will agree a contract with a commie state that goes back on its legally enforceable word?

It's a scandal alright, but it's one Labour created. If they gave me a sheet of paper saying I could have 650k a year, I'd jolly well sign it.

(I see Salmond is a bit quiet on the issue, him being pally with Goodwin and all.)

(Can we write a law forcing him to change his name by deedpoll as well to Lady Freda Badloss?)
3

Puling Prince Roman,

... headinbottom 02/03/2009 00:17:02
...meanwhile, pathological liar and war criminal Tony Blair, who was actually the preson in chanrge while the British economy collapsed, earned twelve million pounds last year... all legal, of course.
4

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 02/03/2009 00:24:45
I agree with 1.


If incompetence were a valid resaon to deny a pension then half the country would be destitute.
5

WJR,

Leith 02/03/2009 00:26:09
Sir Fred, 50, receives about £13,000 a week after his pension pot was doubled to £16 billion as part of a severance deal.

Good deal Sir Fred or maybe just a typo?
6

Julian.,

edinburgh 02/03/2009 00:32:13
#3

Yes, but at least it wasn't at the taxpayer's expense.
7

donald macdonald of macdonald,

02/03/2009 00:36:15
At the point of the contract being signed you would have thought that at least one of these geniuses would have had a little alarm bell going off in his head when Sir Fred said, 'eh, by the way RBS, gonnae make it so that if youse want to get rid o' me youse huv tae let me take ma penshun when ahm fifty an that'll cost youse 650k a year'. Why certainly Sir Fred, no problem, we'll never want to get rid of you.

As soon as he said it, the alarm bells should have went off big time but instead he got himself a nice little earner, courtesy of the idiots who signed off on his contract. And these were the people, presumably, that the bank wanted to pay huge bonuses to because they were the creme de la creme.

As for Harman, she will find out at the next election exactly what is acceptable in the court of public opinion. It will not be her or the other morons in the labour party.
8

madrab,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 00:39:39
What a breath of fresh air coming from central government. Surely now a law must be passed that all ministers, members of parliament, council officials etc should have their final salary pension capped at the same value as that of the minimum wage. Why should our taxes be wasted on huge pensions?
9

Douglas,

Bathgate 02/03/2009 00:47:18
Aye madrab, very witty. :o)

10

Forward not Back,

02/03/2009 00:52:33
Harperson has a neck of brass. Much as I dislike Goodwin for his "achievements" in the banking field, I have every sympathy with him here as he is becoming a convenient patsy for this disastrous government. Election now please, to remove these idiots.
11

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

02/03/2009 01:38:36
There is something very wrong, not to mention very amateurish, about the idea of changing the law in this kind of haphazard fashion in order to try and catch the popular wind. It reeks of a mob-mentality.
12

Puling Prince Roman,

... headinbottom 02/03/2009 02:12:30
#6 Bankrupting Britain was at the expense of the taxpayer. Essentially it's already cost us a lot more than twelve million.

After all, it's all about 'morality and ethics' now, not the letter of the law, is it not? If Blair and his wife were anything other than a pair of greedy scum they would be investing all this money he's earning in some kind of fund to help the poor in the UK, or maybe the victims of the conflict in Iraq, no?
13

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 02/03/2009 03:09:02
A government of National Unity is called for during this crisis. Lab. Tory. Lib Dems. the best of the bunch should be formed to get the country out of this mess......my humble opinion me' lud .....The Goodwin affair suits the labour crowd as it keeps awfull headlines about them off the front page....... and keeps the mob happy.
14

redcliffe62,

02/03/2009 03:13:31
music starts...welcome to the first edition of parliamentary challenge, with jeremy poxman.

jeremy:

and the teams, representing the cream of pigswill are
up labour, tory toffs and the new third force in politics, the bnp, sorry the snp...... where is cable these days, he was alright you know?
remind me, as a starter for 10, why was harman nearly removed,
(nobody answers for fear of losing their place at the trough)
jeremy
too hard that one eh. try again.
what did that tory twit's son do to earn money when he was at college 300 milesaway in newcastle.
jeremy poxman
ah, cameron, tory toffs,
" he made the tea?"
jeremy poxman
wrong answer, that was ming campbell's missus.
anyone else?
balls, up labour,
he did nothing, same as we do?
correct!!!!!!

and for the bonuses, (sic.) why was mendelson removed, what is darling doing with his properties to claim large wads of cash, when did 3 days a week in westminster term time add up to 183 days, (actually closer to 100, so 265 elsewhere), making it a place of primary residence, and what did mrs balls claim which was iffy?
silence from the players.
jeremy poxman
can we ask that clever trimble girl as you guys know nothing? quite!

next week, we have the bankers from RBS, Lloyds and HBOS answering questions on anything they know about, so we expect a shortened version of the show unless we talk about rugby and wine drinking.
15

2Right,

On Location 02/03/2009 03:17:32
Just shows Labour are still in control when they can change laws eh ?

They cannot stand anyone to have more money than them yet their wives are allowed to claim "Taxi" expenses despite not being employed by our Government like their Speakers wife.

She is also allowed free "Holidays" at our expense.

The name "McLetchie" comes to mind here for some reason but then again he had the decency to resign
16

redcliffe62,

02/03/2009 03:23:55
retrospective law, so perhaps with this new care and compassion for themselves, sorry others they can change their pensions retrospectively as well.
17

Castaway™ ,

02/03/2009 03:27:34
Harriet Harman:- He (Sir Fred] is not going to be better off by £650,000 a year as a result of bringing a bank to the brink of collapse etc.
The £693,000 annual pension Fred receives has nothing to do with his bringing a bank to the brink of collapse etc but to do with his contract with the RBS and the rules governing the final salarly pension scheme as allowed by the UK Government. They (UK Government) set up the rules and are now crying it wasn't meant to turn out this way ?

Is HH seriously suggesting that pensions should linked to performance but surely that cannot include our Scottish MP's ?

HH picked up on earlier demands...for Sir Fred to voluntarily repay part of the pension, which he has so far refused to do. How much will Fred have to repay ?
TUC sixth annual PensionWatch study showed some directors have average pension funds of £5.2m-with an annual pension forecast of £333,400.Sep 2008
I am sure these directors will be following the Fred Goodwin pension story with interest and wondering will they also have their pensions threatened ?

Fred if you obtained your £693,000 annual pension legally then keep it all.
18

redcliffe62,

02/03/2009 03:43:10
fred screwed up lately but a deal is a deal. so he gets it, just change it from now on.
19

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/03/2009 04:16:37
Sounds like Sir Fred should consider transferring his pension offshore before the Government has time to pass legislation.

I wonder how Harriet and her mob would view the Tories, after the next election, passing legislation stripping all the current cabinet members of their pensions.

After all they bear as much, if not more, responsibility for the current financial mess.

Maybe we could also look at stripping pension benefits from Blair's cabinet and devote it to helping all the veterans who are receiving shoddy treatment for their disabilities.

20

Julian.,

edinburgh 02/03/2009 04:52:11
#12

I think there would be a few ahead of Tony Blair when it comes to allocating responsibility for bankrupting Britain.
21

Kingston,

Singapore 02/03/2009 04:56:23
Goodwin is a side issue. Sir Fred wrecked RBS, but Brown wrecked the UK.
22

The Kids Are Alright,

02/03/2009 05:02:15
doubled to £16 billion?

Will be interesting to see how the law can be changed legally
23

Ubi,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 05:19:13
The principle of no reward for failure is sound.

Presumably the government will promptly exempt ministers from it.

24

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 05:20:08
23 the kids are alright

According to the Telegraph there are reports that the govt is considering a "special act of parliament". I would asssume that this means that it would be a one-off act just to deal with fred Goodwin.

This though might raise the prospect of Goodwin taking the govt to the European court. The whole thing could drag on for years.
25

redcliffe62,

02/03/2009 05:27:03
include parliamentary pensions and second home allowances and we might not believe it is a whitewash.
600mps will make alot more than fred and have messed up far more than he did, they managed to screw the whole country.
26

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 05:27:23
23
PS
A law suit has been launched against RBS in the USA alleging 4 breaches of their 1933 Securities Act relating to the issue of ADR shares for the purchease of ABN Amro when Goodwin was at the helm. It would be interesting to see if Goodwin could be held reponsible personally if this suit is successful. In this case the action might impose a hefty compensation penalty on him - perhaps it might be even more than his pension pot we know what American courts can be like in this respect and the lawyers filing this suit have won a previous case with $900 million compensation.
27

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 02/03/2009 05:54:12
Mob rule. Labour whips up public opinion against Goodwin in order to divert attention away from themselves and their stuffing off their own pockets with allowances and expenses.

"5-houses" Darling claiming additional housing allowances, even although he has the state provided No11 Downing St.

Maggie Brown sub-letting out state provided office space.

Harman trying to tell us her prime residence is the back-room of her sister's house.
28

Charlie Ferrier,

Hamilton 02/03/2009 06:02:37
I assume after they have legislated for Sir Fred to hand back his pension and his knighthood they will follow thi on with legislation ensuring that all left handed people can only work on Sundays. And then it would be good to also legislate that all people wearing square glasses with tints must pay extra tax to pay for Gordon Brown and Stupid Harmans pensions.

The laws of natural justice be dammed I say - they should also legislate that the labout party can stay in government forever - why not?
29

terry osser,

morden 02/03/2009 06:23:21
hattie dromey is very stupid
30

Angoos,

Baku, Azerbaijan 02/03/2009 06:27:02
He (Sir Fred] is not going to be better off by £650,000 a year as a result of bringing a bank to the brink of collapse etc.

Excuse me but wasn't it shady dealers (spivs I think was the word used at the time to describe them) that brought the banks to their knees by shortselling shares that they didn't even own ?

It's funny how the Government want to change the law to enable Fred Goodwin's pension to be revoked yet they do nothing to the traders (who pocketed a fair amount of cash also) who started this whole mess in the first place !

No doubt my comments will be removed as they were previously on this topic as the Hootsman seems unable to deal with FACTS !!
31

Castaway™ ,

02/03/2009 06:50:03
From 6 Sept 2006 Independent:::http://tinyurl.com/cusf3a
Sir Francis MacKay Former chairman, Compass Group stood down as Compass's chairman earlier this summer, having amassed a pension pot worth £16.1m, enough to buy him an annual income of £830,000.
Sir John Sunderland Chairman, Cadbury Schweppes pension fund was worth £15.3m by the end of last year according to Cadbury's latest annual report.
Sir Julian Horn-Smith Former deputy chief executive, Vodafone.He resigned as deputy chief executive in February. His pension fund is worth £13.2m.
Sir Tom McKillop Former chief executive, AstraZeneca stood down as chief executive of Astrazeneca on 1 January after seven years in the top job at the pharmaceuticals company. By the time he left, his pension fund had grown to £12.65m. He was also entitled to retire two years early with no reduction in benefits.
Larry Fish Director, Royal Bank of Scotland.His current pension pot would buy him an annual pension of £726,400 according to RBS's latest annual report.
From FT February 28 2009
Around £6.7bn of the HBOS losses came from HBOS's corporate bank which was headed by Peter Cummings, 53, before he left last month.
Mr Cummings' pension had a transfer value of £5.9m at the end of 2007, but has not been enhanced by HBOS. As a result his entitlement is set to be cut to an estimated £365,000 because he is taking it early. Mr Cummings, who had 35 years' service with Bank of Scotland, is also thought to have received a year's salary of about £630,000 under contractual obligations.
32

John Cameron,

St Andrews 02/03/2009 06:52:35
It is now essential that Fred Goodwin should not be forced to surrender any of his pension. It no longer matters whether the pension was unreasonable. What matters is that mob justice should not rule. The Government, having signed off on the arrangement, is now attempting to make itself look good by vilifying Goodwin and trying to change the law to claw back his money. Even by the standards we have come to expect of ZANU Labour it is a truly nauseating sight. Someone with greater political skill than the Brown-Darling-Myners combo might have avoided agreeing the original compensation package. Now it is too late. This mess has simply served to expose again the seemingly fathomless depths of stupidity of the Brown Treasury. The loathsome Harriet Harman should be found an occupation to which she is more suited such as the school run to her children's fashionable school.
33

W Smith,

Middle East 02/03/2009 06:56:27
Any chance of clawing back Denis Healy's pension while we're at it Harriet?


BTW

1) Our Fred should do a Gordon Brown and put all the problems at RBS down to a "global" financial meltdown.

The problems at Citigroup, the largest bank in the world, is near identical to RBS without a write down from an ABN-type takeover.

2) Considering the mess Labour have made of Britain all Labour MPs and the snivelling Labour MSPs should lose their pensions.

We can start with money-for-nothing John five-bellies Prescott.

Has anyone worked out yet what he actually did for Britain while being Deputy PM?
34

SS,

Edi 02/03/2009 07:03:36
What a shockng interview and what a truely terrifying precenent this may set. This shower need to go ASAP.

That said, the synic in me suspects shes knows there isn't a cats chance in hell of getting any of it back and she is simply setting comrade broon up for a fall.
35

Russell M,

Stirling 02/03/2009 07:15:11
Let's not be too congratulatory. If the government is successful in clawing back some of Sir Fred's pension then nothing is certain and safe including our own pensions. Is Fred Goodwin's pension settlement, as it now stands, obscene? Absolutely! Should Mr Fred Goodwin return a significant portion to RBS, the country, the children (pick one)? Without doubt! Should the government be the mechanism to right this immoral situation? Not in a million years! Capitalism is a messy thing but not the worst. A society where there is no private property or moral responsibility beyond the reach of government is much worse. When you treat people like children, incapable of shouldering any responsibility you will get a society without self discipline. A society where objects and ideas are vilified lest they encourage people to do bad things. A society controlled by a mysteriously enlightened few who, for our own safety, will ban and censor objects and ideas until we are like domesticated animals.
36

Evan Owen,

Uppergumtree 02/03/2009 07:32:48
This lot have been undoing hundreds of years of legal precedent in only ten, nothing surprises us now does it?
37

SS,

Edi 02/03/2009 07:37:31
While I can't see public opinion ever backing Freddie here, I do think these comments might seriously backfire on the government as what they are talking about goes way beyond clawing back some of one guy's pension.

My only hope is this lot go sooner rather than later.
38

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 07:38:20
The Goodwin story is a complete red herring.

He was initially knighted by the Labour Government, who then insisted upon his early removal as a condition of them bailing out the failed RBS back in October 2008, whilst at the same time agreeing to his rather generous severance package.

Now that the details of this severance package have for some reason been leaked to the press, the Labourtories are full of faux indignation because their stupidity and incompetence has now been exposed to public scrutiny.

They no doubt believed that they had bought Goodwin’s eternal silence on the role of Government and the regulatory authority’s role in the demise of RBS, and are now engaged in a damage limitation exercise in order to discredit anything Goodwin might have to say on the subject.

This could be a rather interesting subject for a book by a clever investigative journo.

Scotsman employees need not apply.
39

gus1940,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 08:00:55
Whilst I may have little sympathy for Goodwin I feel that retrogressive legislation is yet another step down the slippery slope towards a police state.

If retospective legislation becomes common would I be thought optimistic if it were to be made so for any changes to the rules for politician's expenses - say to go back for 40 years and punish those who have abused the new rules - starting with Marshall - details of whose expenses we all still anxiously await.
40

Brodric,

02/03/2009 08:05:37
Nothing is safe. If the government ran out of money, where would social security benefits, including state pensions be? The bald fact is that they couldn't be paid or not paid in full.

Its not enough that there is a contract or a legal entitlement, if there is not enough money to pay it.

And RBS doesn't have the money to pay Fred. So let the government, the major shareholder and investor (on our behalf) do something about it. And don't let them stop there, there should be a major overhaul of the way pensions and perks are worked out - even in private companies. Many of these people are paid way over the odds compared to what they do, or the "real experience" they have, especially in financial services and utility companies.

This is not 'mob rule', it is common sense, it is ethical and moral, and it is necessary in the face of the destruction created by the mismanagement and wanton lack of care and attention by these so called super managers.
41

Nevsky;,

Moscow 02/03/2009 08:19:34
Politics is not about personal vendettas but about governing the country!

Spending all this time and governmental resources to claw back a few quid from a personal pension is a disgrace.
42

jdships,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 08:31:48
21 Julian

Maybe so but surely Bliar and Broon , oversaw the disater ?
The buck stops at the top does it not ?

43

i a n,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 08:32:09
"The Prime Minister has said it's not acceptable, therefore it will not be accepted"

The mighty Gord has spoken!

"It might be enforceable in a court of law but it's not acceptable in the court of public opinion, therefore the government will take action"

Oh, so does that principle apply to MP's tax-funded expenses as well Harriet?

"I'm very proud to be the Deputy of a Prime Minister who is an international leader ... I'm very proud to be Gordon Brown's loyal Deputy, and that's what I am."

But there is currently no-one appointed to the post of Deputy Prime Minister. Harriet, you are the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, which is totally different!

" ... discussion about a leadership challenge is based on the assumption that we are going to lose the next election ... we'll be fighting it to win it"

Do you honestly think you have any chance? Roll on the election!
44

voltaire's janny,

02/03/2009 08:35:22
The issue here is corporate governance. Top bosses are legally obliged to act in shareholders interest, but with relaxed regulation more and more treat their organisations as personal fiefdoms with feathering one's own nest as the primary agency problem.

Fred's pension arrangements - if contractual - would and should stand. If excessive, that is the problem of the non-executive directors. However in the severance arrangements, the giant top-up will be found to be bogus. With whom did he negotiate such a pay-off? In what way were shareholders served by this? The Government as 70% owner had every right to fire his ass and they should retrospectively enforce the entitlement he had prior to the bung. No law change required. He'll no starve on half that amount.
45

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 09:02:51
Failed politicians get a retirement pension for life in House of Lords, or a cushy foreign posting to shake hands and drink champagne.

Same politicians when businessman makes a mistake want him to be a scapegoat for their failed lack of control as Labour scrapped many controls for self regulation. They have known for years salaries at top were out of control but did nothing and even gave a knighthood to Sir Fred.

Regardless if we think Fred should make 'a gesture' or not (and I do), a Government that would change law of the country to get public support for hounding one businessman, is beneath contempt and immoral.
46

TWC,

02/03/2009 09:03:11
yes the same charges made against Fred could be made against the Labour Government.
47

Linda,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 09:07:23
Labour government can easily resolve problem by introducing 90% tax rate for income over £150,000 a year and 95% for income over £500,000 a year.

That would get rid of the bonus culture
48

Marian,

02/03/2009 09:12:20
Gordon Brown is using Fred Goodwin's pension as a smokescreen to try and conceal his own personal responsibility for introducing a system of little or no bank regulation that has led the UK into the dire economic mess we are in now.

This catastrophe happened on his watch, no matter how much he now opportunistically beats up on bankers. He turned on the fountain of cheap money and encouraged the country to swim in it. House prices rose, debt went through the roof and the illusion won elections.

Throughout, Brown boasted of the beauty of his regulatory structure, when those he put in in charge of it were failing to ask the most basic questions of financial institutions. The same bankers Brown now claims to be angry with, he once wooed, travelling to the City to give speeches praising their "financial innovation".

Instead of leading some sort of vendetta against Fred Goodwin in order to conceal his own failings, Gordon Brown should resign immediately so a UK general election can be held to elect a new government to sort out the mess he created and get the UK out of the depression he created.
49

Stan Butler,

02/03/2009 09:12:54

The RBOS board of directors doubled Fred Carno's pension pot at a time when they knew the bank was bust. Fred accepted the raise, knowing the bank was bust.

They knew that without the tax payer bailing them out RBOS would go into liquidation and that all pension arrangements would be scrapped and that the maximum pension that could be paid from the state run guarantee fund would be £20,000 p.a.

With hindsight the Government team dealing with the bail out should have picked up on this scam. They didn't. But that doesn't mean Fred should benefit from it.

Fred should be left in the same position as he would have been if the taxpayer hadn't bailed out the bank. After all he is responsible for the mess it is in.


50

JayJay,

Right here 02/03/2009 09:13:04
What is immoral and obscene is the system itself. Goodwin is just a handy diversionary tool (and a "tool" in every other sense of the word), but the real scandal is, and has been, a system wherebye CEO's, boards and non-execs can award themselves lavish benefits packages, with the full support of the lemming like block votes of institutions. It has been going on for years, excused by the spurious nonsense of dumb cliches of "going rate", "market forces" and my old favourite "if we don't pay these rates they'll go elsewhere." If only they had.
Well us proles have now had a good look at what a £4m salary and a £16m pensio pot gets you. It hires a man who bankrupts the UK. And make no mistake, there are still plenty of Freds out there, plenty of retired execs who doubtless are slightly concerned about any light being shone on their own cosy arrangements.
Even the New labour "champions of the people" (yeah, right) chancers are fully supportive of this nonsense. Blair is paid £2m by JP Morgan for what exactly?
We have had years of rank rotten boardroom behaviour, where social responsibility has been mocked by overpaid cretins whose first and only thought was looking after number one. How Brown or anyone else in govenment can criticise something they encouraged I shall never know.
51

Hmm ...,

02/03/2009 09:14:36
Ms Harman said:

"It might be enforceable in a court of law but it's not acceptable in the court of public opinion, therefore the government will take action."

In law, the government doesn't have to go to the country until NEXT YEAR but in the court of public opinion they have lost all credibility. So can we have a General Election now, please? It won't even need a change in the law - Gordon only needs to recognise the "court of public opinion"!

We want to put an end to his government's mismanagement of the country and its economy - too much damage has been done to both in the last twelve years to wait any longer.
52

Stan Butler,

02/03/2009 09:15:45

#52 Marian,


'for introducing a system of little or no bank regulation that has led the UK into the dire economic mess we are in now.'


Every other party supported these moves. They would have done the same. Some (like Fat N'Eck Salmond) would have gone further.


53

Phil C,

02/03/2009 09:16:16
If only it were as simple as wee Harriet states! Fred's pension is an obscene disgrace but so is the feather nesting of MPs. It makes me feel sick that Brown would get a 6 figure pension at our expense, even if he did the decent thing and resigned now.
54

Hmm ...,

02/03/2009 09:17:03
... Linda (51) said "Labour government can easily resolve problem by introducing 90% tax rate for income over £150,000 a year and 95% for income over £500,000 a year.

"That would get rid of the bonus culture".

Sorry Linda - it would mean the opposite - the people with personal power would then "need" to demand (and get) much bigger gross figures to make the "take home" cash worthwhile!
55

TWC,

02/03/2009 09:17:31
54 JayJay,
Yes what happened to redistribution of wealth, I know all the MPs and Council officials are earning huge salaries & pensions.
I hear labour MPs saying that Holyroodd's Barnett allocation has doubled since Dewars first but by what factor has MP salary risen?
56

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2009 09:20:00
I say stop Brown's pension not Goodwins . Fred may have been guilty of misjudgement but that is not a criminal offence . Brown , on the other hand , knows his time is up so is trying to scorch Britain . Brown knew the economy was in dire straits years go but lied to voters to induce them to take on credit . Brown is a liar , cheat and fraudster . Arrest him now I say .
57

Hmm ...,

02/03/2009 09:21:16
... and Graham (49) said " a Government that would change law of the country to get public support for hounding one businessman, is beneath contempt and immoral."

Yes, Graham - but the "one man" aspect is just the smoke screen - to distract attention from the government's own culpability - yet the legislation would be in place to attack anyone and everyone and you can bet on this lot using it!

Remember the misuse by the police of this government's "anti- terrorist" legislation? Even the sovereign state of Iceland fell into the net!
58

Stan Butler,

02/03/2009 09:23:08
#60 Voice of reason,


'Fred may have been guilty of misjudgement but that is not a criminal offence'


Fred's pension pot was doubled at a time when he and the board knew the bank was bust.

That's not a misjudgement.

59

JayJay,

Right here 02/03/2009 09:24:50
#59
Yes and what is brilliant about it is that these very same Council Juntas, QuangoCrats and Civil servants will now use Boardroom excess to justify their own excesses. It is a perfect circle. Why, we even now have a bonus culture in the public sector again justified by the lead being taken by our captains of industry.
That we have reached a point where pretty average people get paid millions a year for what is no more than a figure-head position is bizarre. These guys are not innovators, entrepreneurs or true wealth creators...no rather they sit in a boardroom and nominally "lead" a beast that has many thousands of drones who actually do all the hard work. As for a situation where those (poorly) running our councils are paid more than the PM, how was that allowed to happen?
60

AJ Fife,

02/03/2009 09:27:52
Goodwin is undoubtedly, the 'Hannibal Lector' of the Banking world, but the Labour Party are simply using him as a diversion for their own incompetence.

The REAL focus, should be on the hapless Brown and his Ministers!
61

Highland Mist,

02/03/2009 09:29:43
Graham #49 is correct, it is a smokescreen and its not working because its transparent.

Harman is merely acting as a mouthpiece of Government who are attempting to delay the inevitable by creating a witchhunt against one man who should never have been allowed to take such massive benefits in the first place. The very people that Gordon and Government promoted, encouraged, befriended.

The Baltimore Riots of 1835---which ignited in response to a bank collapse and a loss by depositors of all of their savings---saw the attacks upon and burnings of the homes of bank officials as well as of the mayor of the city. Can this happen in 21stC Edinburgh?...............Battles in the streets with the police lasting for days? Make yourself clear: Civil unrest in the UK will come because we are not accustomed to being homeless, hungry, unemployed and cold. And this time it’s going to be far worse than it was 80 years ago, because we’re talking a lot more people who have been used to having a lot more money in a society that relies upon hypermarkets, fast food restaurants, central heating and lives in the Internet age, we are The YouTube Society. One outburst of anger, one battle in the streets, one case of police brutality, and the whole thing blows and our system will be brought to the brink of collapse. We simply to not have the money or the resources to house and feed 10 million hungry, homeless, unemployed people in the UK. The reason for the billions being hurled hither and thither like confetti at a weegie wedding is because the Government members really are scared that the rioters and looters will actually come to a city---and neighborhood---near theirs.

And the thing is, it IS going to happen. It’s not an “if”, it’s a “when”. AND deflecting attention of the public to Shreddy Freddy's pension fund (that THEY APPROVED) is not going to make one iota of a difference.

"If people of the nation understand our banking and monetary system, I believe there would be a r
62

Highland Mist,

02/03/2009 09:33:08
"If people of the nation understand our banking and monetary system, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
-- Henry Ford
63

Highland Mist,

02/03/2009 09:36:52
Anyone heard about the Champagne reception that The Bank of England recently threw for HBOS Staff?
64

Phil C,

02/03/2009 09:39:53
#56 Stan Laurel

You keep banging on about Oor Alex wanting less regulation. He is right to want less petty regulation, despite the current Government, FSA and Bank irregularities.

The FSA are hell-bent on over-supervision of insurance companies and individual financial advisers; scanning paperwork for missed warnings or bad wording or wrong date trails. Wasting £millions in printing costs. Because of things like misselling (which weren't usually misselling at all) and that horrid word, compensation, the FSA were hell bent on being seen to be populist.

Along with the Government, they took their eye right off their real responsibilities, which was to stop this country going bankrupt through Government incompetence and banking excesses. They should have been monitoring dodgy takeovers and regulating the greedy, like dear Sir Fred and his fat cat bonus seeking peers colleagues.
65

Doh,

02/03/2009 09:43:09
#53 Stan

You are dead right.

Fred and all the other bankc executives of part-nationalised banks should be treated as recipients of bankrupt pension schemes (which they are if they were not getting ttaxpayers money to featherbed their nests).

Fatcats having their pensions reduced to £20,000 a year will make the next generation a bit more prudent.
66

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 09:45:11
STOP A SECOND & PONDER THIS:

"WE" now own 84% (not 68%) of a £28 BILLION loss, the largest in UK corporate history.

Sir Fred and the board should be crying for forgiveness and think themselves lucky that Madame Guillotine has been retired.
67

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 09:49:05
?
?
Let's see an exhibition of BEING HUMBLED rather than DEFENSIVE ACTION.

68

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 09:51:21
Having had a look at the income tax proposals in the pre-budget announcement it should not be beyond the wit of our past and present chancellors to come up with something to remove a junk of Sir Fred's pension.
Any pensioner who has had the foresight and ability to provide a pension in excess of £22,900 per year will find that their age allowances will be reduced at the rate of £1 for every extra £2 of pension, by our reckoning that is a 50% tax rate on pensions from £22,900 up to £28,930.
Can't something similar be brought in for those who have pensions in excess of say £100,000 ?
69

Pomodora,

Gravesend 02/03/2009 10:01:58
The Business world has sustained me since I left university twenty eight years ago and I was hoping to retire at 50 with a comfortable pension, however the present state of the economy has cast a shadow of doubt on my plan. In two years after thirty years with the firm my pension should amount to seventy thousand pounds with annual indexing,about 50% of my current salary. The operative word here is "should" and in this economy that means "no guarantees". There are thousands of us facing this insecurity but no laws will change to alleviate our uncertain future.
70

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2009 10:10:08
62 - how do you know that FG knew the bank was bust . The rights issue just a few months before that would have been subject to due diligence by top accountants and would have included assurances as to the bank being a going concern . You would have an imposible job to prove that in court . These things do;nt change in a few months . I would suggest you devote your mind to the following questions ?
When did Gordon Brown first know of the shocking levels of personal debt ? When did he first know of the reckless sales culture at HBOS ? Why did;nt he do anything earlier ? For how long had negotations been going on with Lloyds ? Brown must be a very very worried man with lots of skeletons in his cupbard .
71

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2009 10:12:30
Goodwin today , whose pension will this scum Govt stop tomorrow ? Anyone who votes Conservative ? Low life Labour filth , force them out of office !!!
72

TWC,

02/03/2009 10:15:00
FOI will be the next democratic policy to suffer from Nu Labour's conversion to facism.
73

,

02/03/2009 10:19:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
74

Boy Wonder,

02/03/2009 10:22:58
Let the revolution come and money be cast aside!!!
75

Highland Mist,

02/03/2009 10:23:24
#73 - Welcome to the real world.
76

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2009 10:24:46
Harridan Whoreperson is clearly making a leadership bid .
77

Biggar Mac,

02/03/2009 10:25:15
When a company goes bankrupt its directors can be tried for running the company into that state and have their assets seized. Why not Sir Fred Goodwin who has ruined a once great bank, and was warned by his own staff that what he was doing was wrong?
78

Lianachan,

Highlands 02/03/2009 10:27:28
Scapegoat. Anything at all to defelect attention from Brown, I think.
79

YHOTA,

Newbridge 02/03/2009 10:28:17
Sir Fred Goodwin was in the same position as everybody else in the big banks, in government and in the regulators. None of them understood the threat to the system that existed from the complex securitisation products that had emerged. BUT the buck stops at the top of the tree ie the Government who appoint the regulators who are supposed to protect the public interest against the wilder commercial instincts of the bankers. Sir Fred and his predecessors made big mistakes but that had nothing to do with the current disaster. Like every other top executive, Sir Fred did not get to where he was (and is!) by being a poor negotiator on his own behalf!!
80

kpm,

unsworth 02/03/2009 10:34:44
A plague on all there houses.
81

jackhobbs,

glasgow 02/03/2009 10:36:31
Apparently Harriet Harman is a qualified solicitor which makes one believe that you do not have to be too bright to qualify as a solicitor in England !!! To think that this stupid woman is even considering trying to get a law passed to deal with a single person who as we understand has run rings round the governments incompetent officials beggers belief. He is probably in the right according to the law so we are now discussing retrospective legislation which will set another woeful precedent we might live to regret.
82

gmac,

Kilmacolm 02/03/2009 10:38:41
Let me offer some observations on Fred's pension
The sum appears to be £693,000 P/A
Less 40% tax to Mr Darling and Brown = £277200
Less 12.5% national Insurance to the same = £86,625
This leaves him with £329,175
Gordon's cut of the pension = £ 363,825
Fred has also give up around £1,500,000 which was part of his severance pay as part of the settlement.
This fiasco is just another of Our Great Leader's cockups.
Has everone forgeten that he was responsible for destroying millions of ordinary people pensions when he came to power is 1997 by removing the tax allowance on the income from investments made by the pension companies.
My view is that Jeremy Clarkson was correct in his comment of Austrailian television
To conclude, I am at a loss as how a man with a degree in history, who has never had a real job in his life, be qualified to A] run the finances of a nation and B] tell the rest of the world how they should solve the credit crunch
83

Mad Jock,

East Lothian 02/03/2009 10:41:35
I reckon that the ensuing court case over Sir Fred's pension might well cost the taxpayer about the same amount. The government would probably lose the case, and end up paying costs as well as Fred's pension. But then that's what we have in this government of financial geniuses.
84

John south of Soutra,

02/03/2009 10:45:46
This government have totally lost the plot and are now showing their true marxist colours, they have used mass hysteria to put the blame for the state country is in onto to Goodwin, and are using that very basic human trait of jealousy to push their agenda.
It is time these people were kicked out of office as we are now heading towards become similar to the old USSR as they take away peoples liberty bit by bit, and using the old KGB/Gestapo line of if you have nothing to hid you do not need to worry
85

TWC,

02/03/2009 10:47:06
We have too many career politicians who never held down a Job eg Spud Murphy.
They are raking the money in with the Basic MP pay at £63000 just for towing the party line. Crazy.
86

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 02/03/2009 10:55:31
81 - you have to prove that the directors knew the company was insolvent , usually very difficult . I am please to see Brown and Whoreperson have grossly miscalculated the public mood . If Goodwin is indeed cleared of any wrongdoing , I hope he launches the biggest libel action in UK history against this stinking Marxist unelected junta . FG was elected by RBS directors , who elected Brown ?
87

Number 6,

Germany 02/03/2009 10:57:53
Just another load of hot air from Labour that will come to absolutley nothing. This dreadful woman must know already there is nothing she can do.

She can't seriuosly be suggesting she can rush through a retrospective law to deal with this case, is that really what she's trying to claim?.

Thankfully, Labours long history of pathalogical lying and deceit means no one but the stupidest members of the labour flock, will swallow this garbage.

It was labour carelessness, again that let this disgusting deal go through, the idea that there is someone in that laughable party, capable of recouping this money shows the depths of insanity they have finally reached.
88

Teuchter Tam,

Bath 02/03/2009 10:58:25
Thankfully we now only have to wait another 15 months maximum before we get rid of Brown and all the incompetence he represents once and for all, then a real Tory government can show Labour how to run a country properly
89

El Franko,

02/03/2009 11:01:09
One good thing to come from this statement might be that a few more lefties will see the error of their ways, that they are led by numpties with a totalitarian streak, and that the level of operational competence of the government/civil service/political appointees is staggeringly low.
90

Tris,

02/03/2009 11:02:25
The Prime Minister has said it's not acceptable, therefore it will not be accepted. It might be enforceable in a court of law but it's not acceptable in the court of public opinion, therefore the government will take action."

=================================================


If I hadn't heard her say it, I wouldn't have believed it possible that a so-called "senior" politician would say something as stupid as that. It makes you rather scared to live in a country where, if the Prime Minister says it, it will happen. Isn't Zimbabwe rather like that, but with the President instead of the Prime Minister?

I'd be the last to say that Goodwin deserves his money. He doesn't and Harman is correct to say that. But a contract used to be a contract, and if the people who signed it were not certifiably mad, it stood up in court. Unless we can nopw prove that the person who oversaw this contract was mad... it has to stand.

Fred Goodwin's judgment has been at fault, and yes, he brought his bank to bankruptsy, and he has seriously damaged the country's economy, but he did so under a regulatory authority set up by the government, and his leaving package was one which was agreed by a minister in that government.

These people are still receiving huge salaries (and bonuses in some cases), and many will receive obscene pensions, not to mention titles and honours. Will they all be stripped of their benefits too? Will, for expample, Lord Myners find himslef with the title of Mister?

Ms Harman would do well to consider carefully how she and her colleagues would be judged in a court of public opinion, which might very well bring back the death penality specially for them!


91

TWC,

02/03/2009 11:03:42
93 Teuchter Tam,
I don't think Labour will wait till term, things are going to deteriorate to such an extent that they will get wiped out. They need to go to the people asap or they will be out for keeps.
They know they will take a hit but will hope they can recover after about 5 years
92

Stan Butler,

02/03/2009 11:03:54
#74 Voice of reason

'how do you know that FG knew the bank was bust'


Well the fact is that the bank WAS bust.

You seem to think that it's an excuse to say that Fred and the board didn't know it was bust.

The bank was in the process of racking up the biggest ever loss in corporate history and Fred and the board didn't know.

Some excuse, eh?
93

Independent Mind,

Buckie, Glasgow, Oxford 02/03/2009 11:16:05
This is getting beyond a joke! The government is going to CHANGE THE LAW to make sure he can't get his pension?! So now the government doesn't need to adhere to the law... that sounds like a fun place to be! *cough Zimbabwe *cough

Who the hell do they think they are?! The real crisis hasn't even started yet and already the government is taking away our fundamental rights that have been fought for over hundred of years! What the bloody hell will they be doing when we have 20% unemployment and people struggling to afford food?! Cos thats what's coming because of these incompetent fools!

How do you go about starting a revolution? Think I might begin the planning now...
94

Albawolf,

St Andrews 02/03/2009 11:16:45
Fully understand the reason Ms Harman says this

However will she also change the law so that all those £20,000 to (primarily) Glasgow Party councillor's is clawed back too ???????????

These councillor's no more deserve these payouts
They should not have received them
AND THEY TOO SHOULD HAVE TO GIVE IT ALL BACK......

The answer

NO NO NO and a billion more NO's.......
In fact they will not even think of doing this..........



95

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 02/03/2009 11:19:44
I think that Sir Fred Goodwin should stick to his guns and resist these foolish politicians.

Of course, the entire system of rewarding failed bankers and corporate board members with huge amounts of money is obscene, but laws must be obeyed and Maggie Broon's attempt to use Sir Fred Goodwin as a scapegoat to hide his own government's failings is despicible.

If the government reps were so stupid to allow this gross pension payment to slip in when RBS was being bailed out by the taxpayer, then that is Sir Fred's good fortune. There is no point at all in trying to shame him into returning the money voluntarily. This is just Brown and Darling trying to look tough after the horse has bolted. Sir Fred will be furious that he is being used in this way and there is always the huma right (European court) issue). Most people think that Sir Fred does not deserve the money, but what has that got to do with anything? Judge not.
96

Boab,

Glasgow 02/03/2009 11:28:35
#1 et al - well put.

Utterly ridiculous - Labour changing the law to try to distance themselves from the financial meltdown they have created, and pick up some rabble-rousing votes.
97

Teuchter Tam,

Bath 02/03/2009 11:28:44
While Gordy and Ms Harman faff and dither about aimlessly on what to do with the subject of sir Fred's so called pension entitlement,they award the man even more precious time to carefully arrange a bullet proof means of avoiding any possibility ever of a payback.
98

Independent Mind,

Buckie, Glasgow, Oxford 02/03/2009 11:29:15
There seems to be number of people on here that think it's a great idea for the government to take back Goodwin's pension... breaking the contract that THEY signed with him.

Switch on that thing inside your head (it's called a brain). You've been living in a fantasy world of magical make believe for the last 10 years and now you are going to have to enter reality. We are about to have the Greatest Depression of all time. Now is the time we have to fight for every single persons fundamental human rights because the government is going to try and take those from us and once they take one persons rights they can take anyones. A quick look back at history gives you a little idea of what is waiting round the corner for us.

Goodwin did a terrible job but a contract was signed and must be up held.

If we allow the government to break the contract THEY signed with him then we set a precedent that puts us in a very scary position.
99

Stan Butler,

02/03/2009 11:33:16
#95 Tris

On the face of it this contract was induced by error (that the pension was discretionary, albeit a unilateral error. There is also an element of unjust enrichment, where Fred's pension pot was paid money that the bank didn't actually have.

If there aren't enough legal grounds for a court to set aside or adjust the contract then there are certainly moral grounds for the government to pass an Act of parliament to set aside the pension arrangement.

Sir Fred should be put in the position he would have been in if the taxpayer hadn't saved RBOS from collapse, no better and no worse.

No one could say that would be unfair.



100

Jaq,

02/03/2009 11:35:29
Human nature always blame somone else we need a scapegoat, got one!Perhaps the real question should be when your goverment is incopetent what do u do about it.Seems to me that we vote them in then they do what they like across the board,I am talking councils goverment all of them.In these days when they can crush your car even when it is taxed and parked appropriatley with no come back.They can put wrong banding on council tax and make excuses for not providing services, because they are all to busy sucking our money pot dry for expenses.Then we are all given somthing that takes our minds of the real issues IE:hate campaing somone to blame. I feel that it is time to look at some of the real issues,we are goverend by greedy people who are incopetent do not accept blame and suck us all dry.Horrible picture isn't it!
101

Denis,

02/03/2009 11:40:46
Cost to taxpayer of Goodwin's pension - 16, or maybe 30, MILLION.

Potential cost to taxpayer of government's proposed "Asset Protection Scheme" -

maybe TWENTY BILLION, or maybe HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS.

That's BILLIONS, THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/4885413/Alistair-Darlings-debt-defying-stunt.html

"Alistair Darling's debt-defying stunt"

"As RBS unloads £325bn of dodgy assets on the Treasury, Philip Aldrick examines the potentially calamitous asset protection scheme."

Basically RBS has a load of assets of very uncertain real value, so to restore confidence in the viability of the bank the government has agreed to put a value on them - £282 billion.

It has no way of being sure that this estimate is correct, but it's prepared to back its judgement with OUR money -

If in the end it turns out that the assets are worth more than that, RBS keeps the surplus.

If in the end it turns out that they're worth less than that, the government will give RBS 90% of the shortfall.

In the worst case where the assets turned out be completely worthless, that would be £254 billion of taxpayers' money handed to RBS.

RBS is paying very little for that protection - £6.5 billion.

The article quotes various estimates of the most likely losses to the taxpayer - at least £20 billion, maybe £50 billion, possibly as high as £100 billion.

I repeat - that's BILLIONS, THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS, not the paltry MILLIONS in Goodwin's pension fund.

If Alistair Darling was running a real insurance company and recklessly took on such massive risks for such small premiums, it would quickly go to the wall.

And that's just for RBS, and maybe only for a first tranche of assets held by RBS - there's another lot, present book value £215bn, that RBS might like to dump on us later:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4838590/Taxpayers-face-owning -90pc-of-RBS-after-25bn-capi
102

john z,

edinburgh 02/03/2009 11:42:01
Harman is talking piffle as usual.

If (and that's a really big if) they manage to pass retrospective laws so people can lose pensions, just think - what would the very first actions of an incoming Tory Government be???

Maybe Darling, Brown, Jim p(m)uppet Murphy and Harman had better give this a wee bit more thought.

Will Brown forfeit his pension for his incompetence in destroying the entire UK economy????

The public need to know.
103

Denis,

02/03/2009 11:42:30
And that's just for RBS, and maybe only for a first tranche of assets held by RBS - there's another lot, present book value £215bn, that RBS might like to dump on us later:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4838590/Taxpayers-face-owning -90pc-of-RBS-after-25bn-capital-injection.html

and then there are the other banks (quoting from the first article):

"Little wonder, then, that Lloyds has been banging down the Treasury's door for £250bn of insurance. Even Barclays, which is reluctant to have the state on its register - "B" shares or not - is considering signing up. In all, the volume of assets insured could come to £700bn - half the £1.4 trillion national economic output."

Which means that, potentially, the losses could exceed the government's tax revenues for a whole year.

THREE QUESTIONS:

1. Why is there no provision in this "potentially calamitous" scheme to ensure that all the taxpayers' money given to banks will be clawed back, with interest, over say 10 years?

2. Why doesn't the government insist on taking a first charge on their assets, to guarantee recovery of taxpayers' money even if a bank fails?

3. And why is the Official Opposition adopting such a supine attitude on this?
104

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/03/2009 11:48:24
#51 Linda

"Labour government can easily resolve problem by introducing 90% tax rate for income over £150,000 a year and 95% for income over £500,000 a year. That would get rid of the bonus culture"

It would also get rid off a lot of Jobs as all the Head Offices relocate to Dublin.
105

Independent Mind,

Buckie, Glasgow, Oxford 02/03/2009 11:50:09
108 john z

"If (and that's a really big if) they manage to pass retrospective laws so people can lose pensions, just think - what would the very first actions of an incoming Tory Government be???"

The Tories might be right-wing but they are not statists. Don't be blinded by the uncontrollable Scottish hatred of the Tories that all us North of the border appear to have built in to our very bones! They are certainly right-wing but you should remember that the hero of the Conservative party, Thatcher, was fundamentally anti-government and pushed for less government... but then she messed it all up with the poll tax.
106

Jaq,

02/03/2009 11:52:15
109#
3And why is the Official Opposition adopting such a supine attitude on this?

Because at the end of the day they are all the same,who pays? You and me.We are the grunts we work we worry we pay and they continue with their cavalier attitude.Think on it, we can talk we can think OMG what do we do,but truethfully end of the day? what can we do?nothing.We can look and see it is not right we can talk about it, but they are all as bad as each other.Us we are all bound up in laws regulations and busy chaseing our tails due to misinformation that covers up the facts.FACT IS that they are all GREEDY incompetent and out to serve no intrest other than their own.
107

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 02/03/2009 12:04:51
# 81 Biggar

"When a company goes bankrupt its directors can be tried for running the company into that state and have their assets seized."

Yes, if they are guilty of fraud. But not if they where acting in good faith. Being stupid is still not against the law, which is lucky for labour.

Most companies carry Directors and Officers insurance which will cover any claims for liability, so the Directors and Officers never get personally penalized even if their is a court judgement.
108

Doh,

02/03/2009 12:18:34
#110 Kampung

Fine lets call their bluff.

Obama has already decreed that Execs benefiting from the public purse should not be paid more than he - as the chief executive of the entire nation ($500K.year).

I dont see a rush of American companies trying to relocate.

A company is more than its current raft of useless Executives, it is also its shareholders, employees and assests those are harder to relocate.

Ireland is in a financial mess also - the difference beign it couldnt afford to bail out these failed corporations - I think the shareholders will consider that before the execs make any move.

Goodwin and the fatcats should have a 90% windfall tax imposed on the earnings and pensions of nationalised companies.
109

Denis,

02/03/2009 12:24:24
Jaq # 112

What amazes me is that the public is so easily led by the nose.

It really makes me wonder whether democracy is a workable system.

All this hue and cry -

"Stop thief! Goodwin is stealing a bag of our sugar".

Meanwhile, while everybody has been distracted, Darling drives off with a 40 tonne truck loaded with our sugar ...

I can only repeat-

Goodwin's pension fund is a matter of

MILLIONS

taken from taxpayers.

Darling's "Asset Protection Scheme" is a matter of

TENS, POSSIBLY HUNDREDS, OF THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS

which may be taken from taxpayers.
110

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 02/03/2009 12:29:40
THE O.F.T ISSUED A INFORMATION SHEET-APRIL 2008.
HEADED-CONSUMER CREDIT LICENSING REFORMS.

IT STATE THAT-IRRESPONAIBLE LENDING-IS NOW SPECIFICALLY INDENTIFIED AS AN UNFAIR BUSINESS PRACTICE.
THE OFT CAN IMPOSE A FINE OF UPTO £50,000 WHERE A REQUIREMENT IS NOT MET.

WHY WAS THE LAW CHANGED?DID THEY KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON BEFOREHAND.

ALL LENDERS COME UNDER THIS CHANGE,WHY NOT INVESTIGATE THE RBS&HBOS ETC ETC TO FIND OUT WETHER ANY FIRM HAS FALLEN FOUL OF THIS LAW.

CONTACT-WWW.OFT.GOV.UK FOR MORE INFO ON THIS MATTWER.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
111

blackley,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 12:40:43
The "court of public opinion"! What a wonderful phrase that just sums up our current political leaders' thinking. Next, I suppose, we'll have trial by TV phone-in!
To take Harman's idea further - what if the "court of public opinion" came out in favour of, say, Hanging or Repatriation of immigrants?
I don't suppose Ms Harman would take any notice of that of course.
112

Denis,

02/03/2009 12:46:46
# 117

What good will the election do, when the main opposition party is so useless that it prefers to harp on about MILLIONS, while keeping quite about TENS OR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS?

For God's sake - if George Osborne becomes Chancellor next year, he'll be the one who'd have to shut down vital public services because so much tax revenue was being syphoned off to compensate banks for their own past stupidity.

And it'd be the Conservative government which had to introduce legislation to change the terms of the scheme, RETROSPECTIVELY, to ensure that taxpayers' money was recovered.

So why this virtual silence, now?

http://www.publication s.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090226/debtext/90226-0004.htm

"26 Feb 2009 : Column 372

Mr Darling: First, once again, it is clear that, although the hon. Gentleman could not quite birng himself to say it, he agrees with what we are doing."

And why help the government get away with this, by going on and on and on about Goodwin's pension?

http://www.conservatives.com/News/News_stories/2009/02/Osborne_calls_on_Sir_Fred_Goodwin_to_hand_back_pension.aspx

"The Shadow Chancellor said Sir Fred, the former CEO of RBS, should voluntarily give up his pension and promised to support “any legal measure” to get the money back.

But he stressed the situation should have been prevented from arising in the first place:

"The Government signed off on Sir Fred Goodwin's pension deal; they had a chance to stop it back in October. The Government has been totally incompetent on this issue." "

It's pathetic for Osborne to describe the government as "totally incompetent" over Goodwin's pension deal, when he's showing himself to be "totally incompetent" by failing to oppose another government deal which could lead to losses which would be

THOUSANDS, OR TENS OF THOUSANDS, TIMES GREATER THAN GOODWIN'S PENSION FUND.
113

Jaq,

02/03/2009 12:49:37
Denis #116
I am no longer amazed we are all to busy worrying about our lifes jobs familys.People need to think on this though.
Quote"Darling's "Asset Protection Scheme" is a matter of TENS, POSSIBLY HUNDREDS, OF THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS"unquote*
So the next generation and prob the one after that will be paying for this load of bull in years to come.
#117 ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
Why it will be the same croc of S*** packaged in a new way.I look at what is happening and I see same old same old.cause effect solution.I find it depressing that the solution always seems to involve more burden on us the grunts*Taxpayers* They have found a scapegoat and sure we all getting annoyed but it is keeping us from looking deeper to the underlying issues.The issue is CORRUPTION! They saw this comming years ago, but it was allowed to continue,trends in finacial are always looked at,they knew a credit crunch was comming and the piper would be paid,what better piper than us our children and our childrens children burdened with tax debt to let them continue playing who can squeeze the most blood out of the stone.So yeh we will fry one man for his pension fund while the rest play lets make the general public pay more, I AM SICK OF IT! You should be to,question is what do we do? far as I can see not a lot.We have handed our power away on a plate now we pay the price,power corrupts well look at what we got running our country,enough said.
114

zeitgeist,

02/03/2009 12:56:50
116 - Yes the Government is proposing to effectively underwrite hundreds of billions of £'s of so-called toxic assets. Make no mistake, we the taxpayer will never see any of this money re-paid. If there was any value in these assets, the private sector would be taking them. Most of the mainstream economic/political commentators feed us the govt line that 'we' need to bail out banks to save the economy. Oh really, IMO what they are doing is robbing us, our children and our grandchildren of our assets. They have the temerity to be given our money of which some will be lent back to us WITH INTEREST!!!!!! Wake up everyone before it is too late the banksters and the politicians are robbing all of us.
115

Denis,

02/03/2009 13:40:45
# 121 - rulesbutnotrulers - "The fact that Fred Badlose's pension is tiny compared to the bank's debt is irrelevant".

The important comparison is not between his pension, and the bank's debt, it's between:

The amount you'll lose if Goodwin's pension is paid as previously agreed - which won't be more than 80 pence*, absolute tops, and

The amount you'll lose if Darling's guesstimate of the real value of the bank's "toxic assets" turns out to be wrong - which could be as much as £12,000**

assuming that you're an average taxpayer.

* £30 million, divided by say 40 million taxpayers, = 75 pence each.

** £500 billion, ie £500 thousand million, divided by say 40 million taxpayers, = £12,250 each.
116

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leevn England 02/03/2009 13:48:36
So he beat the government at their own game .Do not change the Law ..get rid of these useless idiots who are themselves extorting money from us on adaily basis.
They should all face the courts and imprisoned
117

Richard Lionheart,

02/03/2009 14:08:55
Strange, when Gordon Brown is under fire, it is a Global recession and every country in the World is affected.

When looking for a scapegoat it is all Sir Fred’s fault and his is the only Bank in the world which has hit the buffers.

Can we change the law to stop the Prime Minister and the whole of his cabinet from getting a pension? After all it was them “running the country”.

When Sir Fred take this lot to court over all the Laws they have broken this last week, he will probably get another £16m. Provided that is; that he raises the action in an English court.
118

,

02/03/2009 14:09:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
119

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 02/03/2009 14:26:40
#119
#120
ARE YOU NEW?

WE IN SCOTLAND SHOULD HAVE A PARTY THAT WILL CARE FOR SCOTLAND AND HER PEOPLE DIRECTLY FROM HOLLYROOD ON ALL MATTERS. NOT FROM THE CURRENT CROP OF LIERS AND THEIVES FROM LONDON.
I HOPE THIS MEETS WITH YOUR APPROVAL.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
120

DHS,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 14:30:26
The government agreed this pension payment, bit late for Gordon B to say it isn't acceptable. The buck stops with him as it did for Fred G. Fred was forced to go why doesn't Gordon follow his lead.Labour isn't working. Early retirement usually results in a clawback of 5% for every year you go early, or is it one law for one and another law for others.
121

Denis,

02/03/2009 14:53:38
# 128 - But this scheme will be approved (or otherwise) by the UK Parliament; if as a result tens or hundreds of billions of pounds of taxpayers' money are given to the banks in the coming years, it will come from the UK Treasury, funded by UK taxpayers; the Tories are the Official Opposition in the House of Commons, and most likely to form the next UK government, and that's the party to which I referred. It would of course be great if the SNP MPs provided the Tories with an example of how to oppose this scheme in the Commons, but they haven't done that yet as far as I'm aware.
122

Jaq,

ecosseman 02/03/2009 15:01:54
Yeh I am wet behind the ears and stupid as a rock,that is why I only post on things I feel about and that make me feel sad for state of country or humanity in general. I can see what is going on.I am a Scot born and bred but it is not just Scotland that is in trouble and not just Scotish generations that will bare the burden of this. So please do tell how you would go about resolving this? I am most intrested to hear, seeing as u seem to find it nessecary to attack people having a disscusion.
123

Eve,

Scotland 02/03/2009 16:32:13
"We'll change the law to strip Sir Fred of his pension, vows Harman" Oh god someone get Scotland out of the UK pronto. I'm no kidding the sooner the better. I don't think I could stand our country being in a union that makes laws around certain indivals.

It makes me worrie, if such a thing like this is possible then they might make a law to hurt thouse of us who disagree with the goverment.

Sir Fred Goodman might be running away with a masive pention which he does not deserve. BUT you should never make up laws to get your own way. It's simpley undescent and is completly the wroung thing to do.

They should have never allowed him to get such a high pention in the first place. Have him done under an existing law, he's bound to have already broken at least one of them. Civil or criminal!!
124

IainGlasgow,

02/03/2009 16:35:50
Perhaps they could use their new law to strip Tony Blair of his pension as well. Surely being partly responsible for the near collapse of a bank is nothing compared to being partly responsible for mass murder.
125

IainGlasgow,

02/03/2009 16:41:54
"The Prime Minister has said it's not acceptable, therefore it will not be accepted. It might be enforceable in a court of law but it's not acceptable in the court of public opinion, therefore the government will take action."

I would like to see this lame duck's government voluteer to be judged by the court of public opinion. Given he seems to be intent on leaving calling a general election to the last possible date I don't see that ever happening.

Stones and glass houses come to mind as do empty kettles!
126

Bill T,

Edinburgh 02/03/2009 17:37:48
Did this all arise from someone being headhunted?
The bulk of vacancies are filled by applicants applying and following a series of sifts and the able get an interview when a contract is drawn up, ie. what you will do and deliver and what we will reward you with should you achieve and deliver.
Maybe the practice of recruitment should be reviewed and headhunting banned!
When is the good practice? What happened to business ethics that include such words as - integrity, honesty, trusteeship and care.
127

TWC,

02/03/2009 18:26:01
Yes just Hot air from Harriet Hasbeen, the News has said the pension is watertight.
128

eeyore,

a crack in the road, between two good intentions. 02/03/2009 19:24:06
If a law change can revoke the law prior to the change, then there is no law - only tyranny.

No matter how bad Sir Fred, fear Ms Harriet, for she has no respect for the rights of the people. Anything you do today, could be illegal tomorrow. What you've been legally doing all your life, could place you on the gallows tomorrow morning.
129

The ex Pat,

02/03/2009 23:14:18
Harmans remark about ignoring the legality of the courts in favour of public opion shows New Labours complete disregard for the law.And she proprts to be a QC. Says it all really!

 

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