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Come home - your country needs you, Polish president tells his people

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Published Date:
09 November 2006
Jack McConnell hosts Polish president Lech Kaczynski 20,000 Poles in Scotland but including unregistered could be 100,000 Influx may reverse when Polish economy comes up to European level
Key quote
"We are treating this [exodus] as an interim arrangement. If Poland continues to develop at its present rate, and it is always difficult to forecast the future in economics, then the process of Poles going to work abroad will, I think, fade out." - LECH KACZYNSKI

Story in full POLAND'S president appealed yesterday to the thousands of his people who have settled in Scotland to return home to help revive the country's economy.

Lech Kaczynski said there was now a lack of skilled professionals in Poland, partly because of the exodus to the United Kingdom, and he hoped those who had come to Scotland, and the rest of the UK, in search of well-paid jobs would think about returning.

At least 20,000 Poles are known to have come to Scotland to work in the past two years; however, the number of those who are here but have not registered could be as high as 100,000.

They have helped boost the Scottish economy, reverse Scotland's falling population and taken many low-skilled jobs which employers were having trouble filling.

But the huge exodus from Poland has worried politicians there, and yesterday Mr Kaczynski said he believed the massive influx to Scotland would tail off soon and that the trend would be reversed when Poland's economy came up to the European level.

Speaking after a meeting with Jack McConnell, the First Minister, Mr Kaczynski said: "I can only hope that they will eventually go back to Poland, as Poland will be in increasing need of skilled professionals."

He said unemployment in his country had fallen from 17.6 per cent to 14.9 per cent in a year, partly because of emigration.

Mr Kaczynski added that, despite Poland still having a high unemployment rate, employers were having difficulties finding skilled workers in specific professions, again partly because of migration to the UK.

The president said the exodus was helping to force up wages in Poland, not only because the skilled professionals left at home could charge more for their work, but also because Poles abroad were earning more and that money was feeding into the Polish economy.

"As a former member of the Solidarity trade union, I can only applaud this phenomenon," he said.

But he added: "We are treating this [exodus] as an interim arrangement. If Poland continues to develop at its present rate, and it is always difficult to forecast the future in economics, then the process of Poles going to work abroad will, I think, fade out.

"We have many Poles working in the UK and Scotland today, but I don't think this will last long."

Mr Kaczynski also paid tribute to the long-term links between Scotland and Poland, stretching back to Scots immigrants in the Eastern European country during the 17th century as well as Scottish-based Polish soldiers who fought with the Allies in the Second World War.

The president made his comments against a backdrop of jeers from about 30 Polish protesters outside Edinburgh's Point Hotel.

Lucas Buchnied, 26, from Lublin, who is in Scotland to work, said he and his compatriots were angry at Mr Kaczynski's attempts to shut down the free media in Poland, at his decision to blur the lines between Church and state and at the right-wing drift of the country.

"We just want to say that he doesn't represent us," Mr Buchnied said.

He went on: "We are all Polish, mostly studying or working here, and got together through the internet and telephone conversations. We don't like what this president is doing in our country."

Mr McConnell said Poles were welcome in Scotland. "Whether they are here to study or work, they make a real contribution to the strength of our economy, our society and culture," he said.

"We want to help them broaden their experience and skills so that when they return to Poland they can help it to grow as they helped Scotland to grow.

"My discussions with President Kaczynski have given me renewed confidence that we are nations of shared history and will renew our shared future."

Hidden army


NO-ONE really knows how many Poles have arrived in Scotland to work.

Official figures show that 32,000 new migrants from Eastern Europe have settled in Scotland since the UK opened its borders nearly two years ago, about 20,000 of these from Poland.

But these statistics only include those who register for work and do not include the army of self-employed trades people and unskilled workers who have come to Scotland.

The Scottish Executive believes there are about 40,000 Poles now living in Scotland while the Polish Council believes there are about 50,000.

The true figure could be as high as 100,000.

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1

,

09/11/2006 03:04:45
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2

,

09/11/2006 07:08:26
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3

conservative,

Fife 09/11/2006 08:04:08

You can just see it now - the skilled workers which we say we need will go and the criminals and layabouts will stay because it's nice here isn't it?

4

,

09/11/2006 08:05:00
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5

,

09/11/2006 08:22:14
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6

Pete39,

In my backgarden 09/11/2006 08:28:49

Totally unreal. The Scots, English, Aussi's , Europeans and Americans have always travelled the world, usually when they are young and wanting to find out how the rest of the world lives. The folk from the Middle and Far East, mainly in this generation, for economic reasons. It should be up to the host country to weed out the chaff from the corn, before this very desirable situation grinds to a halt. Scotland is a multicultural society, but like any other round the world can become racists if pressures arise.

7

conservative,

Fife 09/11/2006 08:37:29

Oh yes, Pete39, we're bound to be racists because we don't want spongers aren't we?

8

AlanB,

Warsaw 09/11/2006 08:43:36

Not a very popular man in his own country Mr Kacynszki. Here is hoping he gets lost on his way back

9

SF,

09/11/2006 08:45:36

For goodness sake, this country would be in deep trouble without these fantastic workers - as an employer i would state categorically that the problem of spongers and wasters is one that affects our own people, not these migrants. Scotland has developed an extremely lazy culture and these workers bring a work ethic, friendly can do attitude and committment that puts Scots to shame. Keep them coming i say so that we can actually keep this country running.

10

The long distance man,

Slovakia, Hungary, Estonia and Poland 09/11/2006 08:50:53

My Polish friends do not have many kind words about the current PM and President of Poland who they think is taking the country too far to the right. But the Poles who are coming to Scotland now are like so many Scots who travelled the world. Some may stay but most will save hard with the intent on going home to buy a flat or start a business. Good luck to them.

11

SF,

09/11/2006 08:54:06

For goodness sake, this country would be in deep trouble without these fantastic workers - as an employer i would state categorically that the problem of spongers and wasters is one that affects our own people, not these migrants. Scotland has developed an extremely lazy culture and these workers bring a work ethic, friendly can do attitude and committment that puts Scots to shame. Keep them coming i say so that we can actually keep this country running.

12

conservative,

Fife 09/11/2006 09:03:10

Oh yes SF, it gives a super opportunity to pay under the going rate for workers desperate for money doesn't it? We could do without employers such as you. I bet you really love the minimum wage!

13

bupf,

09/11/2006 09:08:57

Hear Hear SF. I just read a history of scotland which mentions the Irish Immigration of the 1840's , 1850's. They faced the same kind of nonsense "conservative" is spouting above.

It's happened before and doubtless itll happen again , if people insist on reading the daily mail.

Lazy good for nothing jobsworth scots will be the only ones to suffer with the polish immigration. The country owes them nothing, and if they are prepared to get of their ass and work - like the majority of the incomers , they will be fine.

Alternatively, their are bound to be (a few)highly paid jobs in Polands emerging economy for the enterprising scots..

14

Duncan in Edinburgh,

09/11/2006 09:09:38

#12 I agree that there is some exploitation here, but it's not black and white. There are also many in our permanently resident population who are too bloody lazy to work for a living.

15

HGG,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 09:12:53

The problem facing Scotland which most concerns me is the work shy, benefit parasite, home grown Scots. If only we could trade them for more Poles.

16

Steve,

West Lothian 09/11/2006 09:22:56

MILE WIDZIANY WOBEC SZKOCJA!
Poles are hard working and honest people, and I'd welcome them to Scotland.

I dont hear Jack McConnell asking for the 60,000 Scots a year who leave to come back. Funny that!
As for you, "conservative" your just bitter because there are now more Poles here than Tories.
Lets keep the Poles and deport the Tories!

17

The Strategist,

09/11/2006 09:25:09

Actually I've been thinking of moving to Poland. House prices are sensible and they are not quite as stupid as we are to believe an economy can depend entirely on financial services.

18

bupf,

09/11/2006 09:36:44

Go for it Dick. Visited Gdansk in September , liked it a lot. If there was more opportunity there for me I would move. The mountains in the south are fantastic, the cities (apart from Warsaw) , old and full of history and culture.

19

lucas buchnied,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 09:45:21

and what do you think about the anti-presidental demonstration? don't you mind poles using this country's freedom to speech to express their political concerns? most of the poles consider the demonstration as a inappropriate

20

GP,

09/11/2006 09:46:32

I think most of these postings miss the point.
Why do we have a lazy workshy people SF?
perhaps this should be addressed first.
Full employment should be enforced if necessary then all you employers who do not wish to utilise cheap labour or undermine existing wage structures would not need to import foreign workers. Those employers who do not act in this way and do pay illegal wages should then incur the full force of the law. There would be no black economy if this was introduced. Scotlands unemployment is masked by a variety of schemes and programmes that are ineffective whilst employers are allowed to break the law as far as minimum wages go. The minimum wage is too low and there should be no ability to include travel or accomodation costs into anyones pay rate.
This is typical of this government both local and national rather than tackle the problem they create a greater one.
As for 13# the irish migrants were brought over to break the fledging unionisation and reduce existing wages. There was no shortage of people to work it was a political move to stall the improvements being forced upon employers by workers. That is why the anti irish feelings started. They threatened years of hard work by people trying to better their own lifes by those prepared to work for less and yes they also bettered their own lifes. No employers brought Irish migrants over for new jobs or any altruistic reason it was to keep the existing people in their place. Much as now SF eh?

21

Guga,

Rockall 09/11/2006 09:46:37

I like that bit #16 Steve, about there being more Poles here than Tories.

The Poles are a very nice people, and the ones that come here are hard workers, not spongers. They are expoloited, to a degree, in that they tend to get lower rates of pay in the construction industry, but that is the fault of the grasping, greedy employers.

There are Poles in Scotland who have been here since the war. They were welcome then, and they are welcome now.

Incidentally, if it wasn't for the Poles, we would still be severely short of dentists.

22

bupf,

09/11/2006 09:49:30

Demonstrations by their nature and your nature and my nature can be considered inappropriate.

They have the right to demonstrate in Poland also, strangely enough ;)

23

bupf,

09/11/2006 09:53:04

Interesting, and correct points GP.

Thats partly why the Anti -Irish sentiments arose though , alot of it was sheer small mindedness which doesnt seem to have gone away.

People are more empowered now though , and surely dont need scapegoats. And if they do , fÜck em.

24

georegc,

alloa 09/11/2006 09:54:44

Now that we know the xecutive has welcomed the Poles officially andthe Polish government knows they are returning, this is going to be a disater for the Scottish economy as there will be a distinct skills shortage.

Now is the time for Jack McConnell to stand up to Central Government and admit that his Fresh Talent project is dead in the water but he could revive it by opening the doors uner his scheme to the many talented Romanians and Bulgarians who are wanting to come to the UK. All the figures show Scotland can absorb them yet the government in London still puts up barriers, closes the Skilled Immigrant programme, so they can re-hash it to cause more confusion.

25

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 10:00:34

Dear mr poland,
because most of Scotlands educated and skilled people leave we are left with a very high percentage of non starters, would you be interested in talking some of the scottish riffraff?jack can go too.

26

lucas buchnied,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:04:45

#22 for some of the banners they could face court in poland

27

GP,

09/11/2006 10:13:48

23# I don't consider being thrown out of work and out of tied house to be small mindedness at all.
The prime function of the human is to exist and continue their gene pool like all other animals.
If threatened then you may call self mindedness I would call it self preservation naturally takes a defensive stance.
No doubt the employers could make that same claim in that they wished to preserve their high stanard of living at the continued expense of their workforce. But I would have hoped that we have moved on from the 19th century.
Perhaps not. Poverty is poverty just the same.

Scotland requires a workforce full stop. Policticians etc. like to make statements about highly skilled higher qualified etc etc but at the end of the day the country needs a workforce of all flavours. My view is that no-one should be allowed to not add value to the country by sitting around. Everyone can do something and I mean everyone.
The biggest problem being faced in Scotland just now is thast of long term incapacity as dictated by M Thatcher's government. A deliberate policy of moving numbers of the dole and onto incapacity benefits so they would noit be counted. Now this government is trying to get people of incapacity without much success. Why ?
In the main many of the jobs these same people would be directed into are being taken by polish migrants. These jobs for some would be stepping stones for others they would be long term either way they are unavailable to these people now.

28

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:13:50

really ? Sorry you know more about it than i do obviously. What do the banners say?

29

lucas buchnied,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:20:10

#28 one was saying "pis = pzpr", where "pis" means the law and justice, the president's brother party, and the "pzpr" is the only party from the communist times. that's reagrding taking over all the power by one political option, including public media, and actually, a person has already faced the trial

30

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:29:01

Cheers 29.

I spent a lot of time in the former GDR due to my fathers political persuasion.

Do you know of any good Polish news sites in english?

31

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 10:29:50

GP 27,
Aye and when people get sick send them to the gas chamber,
and when people become unemployed put them in the army,
and when theres a recession reintroduce slavery and make people work for nothing except bread and water,
and then bring the poll tax back so that we can all go rioting.
Anymore good ideas?

32

lucas buchnied,

edinburgh 09/11/2006 10:41:37

#30 anything but the goverment owned ones, i think that one seems to be more-less neutral http://ens.pap.pl/demo/

and do not be scared what is happenening just now over there:)

33

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:43:14

GP , the time to complain is long past. 1992 and the single market.

Do you know what the EU is for ? Did you vote for your MEP ?

Use your vote, regardless of whether I like it or not.

34

bupf,

09/11/2006 10:44:19

CHeers lucas. Unfortunate name for the news service, but never mind ,)

35

GP,

09/11/2006 11:11:20

31 and 33 what are you on about?
I am only stating the facts.
In 1992 we were following the Thatcherite rules of moving unemployment from jobkless register to incapacity register.
31# do you reaslly think people deserve to be socially excluded? I don't. By keeping these people supressed we do them no favours. Most if not all can do something of value, for some it will raise their self esteem for others it will improve health, for all it will provide improved living standards.
The choices are there for this country - keep people on benefits with all the associated probelms or move to a full employment status with everyone benefiting from the positive aspects this would bring.
As for time about complaining this has nothing to so with this at all. If we had full employment then why would migrant labour arrive?
Illogical bupf.
p.s. this is not about migrant labour if after we had full employment SF was still expanding his business then fair enough why not? not an issue or problem.

36

David M,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 11:32:59

It is easy to blame the Poles as it was the Irish for our falling wages, worsening conditions, higher unemployment rates and weakening of unions. No doubt there presence has an effect but they are not the cause. Migrant workers do not decide on the various government policies which have lead to the rich getting richer and the poorer getting poorer. They don't design the laws which allow employers to exploit both Scottish and migrant workers. They are not responsabile for our own inability to defend workers rights in the UK in fact Irish workers played an important role in stregnthening our unions. Imigrant workers cannot be blamed for our own passivity and silence whilst large corporate employers influence our governments (Manage them in the case of Blair and McConnel) trample over our rights.
Why do we workers allow employers and governments through trashy news papers like the 'Daily Mail', 'The Sun and 'The News of the World' to pull the wool over our eyes. They play us against each other all the time. Male against Female, white against black, nationals against asylium seekers, refugees, economic migrants etc etc. Well known strategy of divide and rule. Whilst employers, transnational corporations with the help of our government stand united foreign or British and they take turns at shaftings us.
We are are so busy fighting amongst ourselves accusiing one another of sponging and so on, that we fail to notice the Billions of pounds that are accumulating in British and foreign bank accounts as a result of the exploitation of the sweat and blood of nationals both left and right white and black male and female iIrish and Polish etc etc (There is no discrimination in exploitation). Australian Rupert Murdoch, the owner of 'The Sun', 'Daily Mail' Sky TV, Fox Networks and many many others who's editors and producers are committed to catching out and demonising working class tax evaders, fraudsters, Spongers and so called bogus asylum seekers, and turning u

37

Jockyw,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 11:34:59

HAMISH MACDONELL (SCOTTISH POLITICAL EDITOR) - Come on with this job title the readers really expect a better-researched article. To state: 'At least 20,000 Poles are known to have come to Scotland to work in the past two years;' Wrong, the Polish Embassy in Edinburgh has 35,000 registered in Scotland but the Embassy states they reckon 75,000 Poles are now in Scotland with 250,000 in UK.
The Polish President has a point because if this trend continues then the Polish economy will be a fall and no one will want to return. The idea of working abroad is to get some work experience, see the world, have some fun, save some money and return to your native country with better job prospects and cash to invest in your future.
I don’t understand why the British economy (tax payers) has to assist and pay handouts to foreigners. In addition the British passport requires 2 different levels, how can two foreigners visit Britain, go into hiding, give birth and the newborn gets a British passport?? We need a type A&B passport for different groups.
Note: HMO’s has generated a rise of complaints to Edinburgh council and the Police with Polish residents. They do not understand the basics like no unnecessary noise after 11pm and rubbish goes in a bin that gets collected on specific days, not on pavements or back gardens.

38

,

09/11/2006 11:38:35
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39

bupf,

09/11/2006 11:41:01

I dont know where to begin Jocky. Theres a lot of scots dont understand the stuff about noise and rubbish bins either.

As for keeping people on benefits GP, dont you realise that almost very country in the world now has a migrant population? No-one is keeping anyone on benefits. I personally know a lot of people however, that are quite happy living on benefits.

Scotland for the Scots. Is that what you are saying? Jeezus christ man, wake up and smell the globalised roses.

40

noremac,

not too far away 09/11/2006 11:47:48

35 GP-
Try and convince employers to employ and then try and convince "WORKERS" to work.You will then discover that they are not always compatable.

41

Jockyw,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 12:08:32

Bupf, thanks for your comments. I am not saying Scotland for the Scots at all. I fully understand history and realise that we live in a mixed culture society for the better. It is very difficult to get a complete point of view in this forum. Regardless all nationalities have mixed groups of good & bad. It's always the same; just a few bad eggs spoil it for the majority. Unfortunate for me I live close to an HMO with 12 Poles who have been nothing but trouble with rubbish displayed seven days a week that the seagulls get and also they use my back garden as a bin. After speaking with them it has improved so here's hoping.
Benefits, I know that there are plenty of Brits abusing the system but when I applied 7 years ago I was declined because I had savings in the bank. I can't remember the Brits abroad getting benefits unless they paid local taxes. I am opposed to any fraud or free handouts. The blame should be directed to central government for their failings.
Bupf, I enjoy reading your comments throughout the EV & Scotsman and often agree with many, cheers.

42

Fred,

Old Town 09/11/2006 12:28:15

I dont see any decent workers coming out of Poland myself, its all low skilled rubbish arriving here. Can we stop the leeches and get some skilled people to work. I cant see how the present flotsam and jetsom can make any contribution to the economy when they dont make any money, surely you have to be on at least £12 an hour in order to contribute as an immigrant/guest worker ?
The polish pm was correct in saying 'feckless poles' arriving here are an issue

feckless \FEK-lis\, adjective:
1. Ineffective; having no real worth or purpose.
2. Worthless; irresponsible; generally incompetent and ineffectual

43

Neil,

9% GROWTH Party 09/11/2006 12:33:26

"Come back to Smart Successful Poland"

Reminds me of somebody.

44

bupf,

09/11/2006 12:44:44

NO problem Jocky , and sorry , i have no axe to grind with you.

Wishing you luck against the bad neighbours.

45

Moray Stewart,

Edinburgh 09/11/2006 12:55:19

Perhaps if local unemployed were forced into work through a gradual withdrawal of benefits we wouldn't need take some many people from other countries and the tax bill would be reduced as well (or it could be fed into other areas).

46

GP,

09/11/2006 13:01:33

At no point did I state Scotland for Scots what a complete and utter falsehood.
What I have stated is that in my opinion we as a nation would be better served corecting the previous badly managed policy of moving unemployed people of the jobless register into incapacity. Get them off benefit into worthwhile workplacement. This would have a major impact to our economy. Firstly a decline in benefit payments (slow but gradual). Secondly improved social conditions for those existing on benefits as they moved from this subsistence living into an improved social environemnt. Thirdly a genuine and true measure of how the economy is performing. Fourthly a new pool of labour to fill all those jobs that we are continually told are available for migrants.
All the above would insure that when politicians spoke on a matter they would have true facts to base debates on. Unlike now where figures and water is muddied.
For example when pol. speaks about good or bad migration then facts can confirm or deny.
When a poli. speaks about social deprivation housing or exclusion they can use facts to prove or disprove.
Simple really it is about allowing facts to surface and remove most of the shite spoken by politicians and their supporters on here. Shite which can't be refuted or proven because we have too complicated strcutures to capture correct data at present.
For example - what is the level of unemployment in Scotland?
answer = depends what you mean!

47

JHC,

09/11/2006 13:09:21

Well said Moray Stewart!

48

AlanB,

Warsaw 09/11/2006 13:37:09

43. Fred, I believe that the quote was attributed to the Polish president and not the PM although it would be a brave man who would try and distinguish between them

49

bupf,

09/11/2006 13:39:00

"Secondly improved social conditions for those existing on benefits as they moved from this subsistence living into an improved social environemnt. Thirdly a genuine and true measure of how the economy is performing. "

GP , Sorry my friend but everthing you are saying sounds a bit "conceptual" and rather MP-Speak to me. Its a pity as you obviously dont like it yourself. And sorry for thinking you were anti -immigration.

What do mean Man ?

A lot of the jobs being filled by poles are low key service industry jobs, these type of jobs are taken by migrants in every Western European nation i can think of - for the sole reason nobody existant in the country wants to do them.

You should be happy !

50

Roddy,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 13:40:03

Having had a few jobs in the service industry i have to say poles are fantastic, a far few scots are lazy buggers, stay here poles! and we can send the lazy scots over there to work in coal mines, that get the work ethic back into them

51

Dell,

09/11/2006 13:48:27

The Polish perspective. Have any of you Scots actually stopped to think what effect of very sudden and fast emigration from Poland has on that country? And what the reasons are.

The first reason is that people emigrate is money, pure and simple. More elaborately, Polish unemployment is the highest in Europe (about 15-20% of the workforce, I forget exactly). Secondly, if you do havea job, it will pay less than you can earn in the UK doing manual labour. Therefore it is primarily money that pushes people, it is the stick.

The Second is prospects. Tghis is the carrot. In Poland, as in the rest of CEE and far more than in the UK, you get a job and get promoted through who you know rather than what you know. Therefore, if you don't have good political, business or personal connections, you will still get a job, but not such a good one as your classmate whose uncle is high up in some company. This of couse happens everywhere, but the perception in Poland is that it is worse than other coutnries (not really true, but people think it, which is more important).

Third, is the same reason that you Britons go to Australia, the US or anywhere when they are young. Working abroad is an adventure, you learn new things, gain new experience and make some money.

Fourthly, many older Poles with families and children are also going abroad, usually to support their children's educaton and future, to buy property (it is not only British investors who are fuelling the propery boom there, as shown by the google ads below), or to to start a business. Property prices in Poland are alos being fuelled by buyers who have made cash abroad and who are looking to buy.

Lastly, dear Scots, don't think that the Poles here like being here. Having been brought up to think that the Britons are gentlemen, polite, etc, (though a bit silly like Mr Bean) they are agog at the shabbiness and lack of manners in everyday life here.

They are also shocked by the work eth

52

Dell,

09/11/2006 13:50:24

By the way, I didn't vote for Kaczynski (though my granny did). don't any of you Scots know anything about politics in fellow European coutnries. Are you so in thrall, or in reaction to, US politics. When the riots occured in Budapest last month, most of my colleaugues at work here only knew about Hungary from footballers. Is no-on interested in Europe??

53

graham casey,

Perth Australia 09/11/2006 13:54:15

One would think that any Government which signs up to a 'free for all' policy like the EU would have some means of knowing who has entered the country, where they are here, wether they are working and when they have left. This seems to have escaped the UK - they admit to having no idea how many Commonwealth, third world or EU citizens are in the country not to mention illegals (estimated at 3 million) and asylum seekers. So the agruments for and against any group become so much hot air. No one has any faith in the border controls and are tempted to treat everyone as an illegal immigrant as the odds are very much in favour of that. When the first economic slump comes the nice liberal society will fall apart and the Government will send out the police to crack heads and blame people for being 'racist' when by adopting sensible immigration policies and proper border control they could have avoided it all.

54

Pete McClelland,

09/11/2006 14:25:09

#53. Dell........err..no

55

Fred,

Old Town 09/11/2006 14:25:38

There is zero, zilch even a negative benefit to the host populace. no increase in gdp nothing. so why do we have them here ? The only benefit is to Poland and i'm sorry but we are not here to pay for there woes and economic troubles. Work permits are the answer because the main effect of unlimited polish immigration is to hold down low wages with the result that that employers and the middle classes benefit while the low paid suffer. It also becomes even more difficult to move from welfare to work the 4.2 million British people on unemployment and incapacity benefit.

I will add again that there is zero/negative benefit to the countrys populace from the polish immigrants.

56

christopher,

09/11/2006 14:33:55

i have no problem in these people coming ot work here, it is when they start claiming benefits and sending the money we put in to our country back to poland.

the whole immigration set up is farsical. i would also be interested to know what the climate would have been like if the roles were reversed, would we have been welcomed with offers of benefits we could send back to the UK? would we have encountered any racist views? free health service while the natives pick up the tab........

i would like to see any immigrant having to pay a levvy to enter the country, say £500. that would weed out the dodgy ones and would hopefully inject some cash in to the services they are using, although some of them are illeagal and if they are illeagal then they have somthing to hide and should be deported straight away

57

Canning,

09/11/2006 14:50:25

I totally agree with Dell, post #52

Im a scot currently studying politics, sociology and economics at university and as far as I can see there is nothing but positives for the Scotland with the current Polish influx.

From the Scottish point of view how can anyone criticise people who are willing to come over here and fill jobs that people, largly of my generation are unwilling to do. It sickens me that people like "conservative" from post 12 still have there jingoist mentalities. NO doubt there will be people comming on here saying that they are taking jobs away from the indigenious population. Tjis is utter rubbish! The fact of the matter is that there is too many people in the country claiming benifits on the assumption that they 1.) cant get a job and 2.) that there are no jobs.

Also has everbody forgotten about the major economic crisis that is due to hit the UK in the next 25/20 years. We have a an ageing population which is going to result in a pensions crisis, foreign workers provide us with a solution to this problem. It has been proven time and again that immegrant populations tend to have larger families, this could provide us with a new generation of skilled and motovated workers, somethin that many young people of my generation aren't.

58

Sonnaidh,

Baile Leibhin - Szkocja 09/11/2006 14:51:50

Christopher

The Poles already pay a Levy to London inorder to register (OOOOh these London subsidy junkies).

Also regards tax credits which are paid for Polish bairns back in Poland. If the original tax code for married people or people with kids was still in force, they would get the dosh through their wages and send it home if they so wished.
Good question would be "Why does Wee Wacky Baccy Jacky McConnell want to send ALL our Tax to London?"

59

Sonnaidh,

Baile Leibhin - Szkocja 09/11/2006 14:56:02

Christopher.

Poles in Scotland already send a Levy to London (Oooh them subsidy junkies). Tax credits for bairns back home is just as before when they increased your tax code for being married or having kids.

As for people sending our money elsewhere - whit aboot Wee Wacky Baccy Jackie McC insisting on sending ALL our Tax Dosh doon tae his uUncle Gogsy?

60

lorren,

us 09/11/2006 15:34:40

Polish people in Scotland are an asset. they are hard working, smart and clever people. Scotland needs more people like them.

61

GP,

09/11/2006 15:44:17

56# Fred
It appears we agree that this currently is of little or no long term benefit to the country as a whole.
It is disappointing to see how little posters actually understand of the real situation within this country.

Well done more power to your elbow!
Our country is booming we are told yet interest rates once again start to clime beyond reasonable levels. Unemployment (the true figures) is increasing as is benefit claims.
The positive spin put on certain parts of our economy and even worse certain geographical areas belies the true overall picture.
Oh well no doubt bupf & co. will answer it or SF will employ everyone @ £2 / hour in the future.
I doubt any of the above have the capacity to fix it. bupf does not have the grey matter. SF and co. are opportunists, simply taking advantage of low wages.

62

bupf,

09/11/2006 15:56:15

CHeers GP for slagging me off.

I applaud Interest Rate Rises as Im smart enough not to be in debt.

Who is the dummy. Welcome to Capitalism.

63

GP,

09/11/2006 16:06:17

63# you said I sounded too MP like so I thought I would lower the tone to your level.

I too am lucky not to suffer from negative effects on me personally due to the un-precendented interest rate rise announced.

Perhpas the scotsman should publish a book for you Capitalism for dummies.

64

Pole in the UK,

Scotland 09/11/2006 16:19:00

A comment from another forum:

"I'm surprised that the comments made by the Polish president are taken at face value by so many. Perhaps this is because the need to see Tony Blair in an unfavourable light (someone said on this forum that Tony Blair was made look like an idiot by the comments) is stronger than common sense. Ironically most Poles living here in the UK and those living in Poland think that it is Mr. Kaczynski that made a fool out of himself. Just think... Mr Kaczynski is insinuating that a large number of Poles living in UK are dole cheats collecting unemployment benefits in Poland while working in UK. Really? To collect such benefits in Poland you have to report in person to local unemployment office once a month. If you work legally in the UK, even for a minimum wage of £5.35 per hour, to lose one day of work in UK to report to the office in Poland would cost you about £40.00, plus roughly £80-100 in travel cost. That's £120-140, or roughly 740 Polish zloty, more than unemployment dole in Poland."

plus-to get an unemploymet benefit in Poland, you have to prove that you were previusly employed anywhere in Poland for at lest 6 months (constant period)

65

sheena,

Non Pc World 09/11/2006 16:59:07

We were happy enough to have all the Poles who managed to get here duting WW2 and fought alongside us. Many were billeted locally here, married local women and stayed on, working in the pits, etc. Many of my classmates were half Polish, half Scots and we never noticed any difference except that their names were hard to spell. I believe that is only in the last few years that they have been able to freely visit Poland and catch up with what remains of their Polish families.

66

Fred,

Old Town 09/11/2006 16:59:24

"A8 migrants contribution to the economy as a whole is probably slightly negative. Their fiscal contribution has been slightly positive while the number of their dependants has remained very low.
However, their output per worker is poor as they are engaged mainly in low productivity/low value added activities.
If their productivity stays constant and the number of dependants increases their contribution to overall GDP per head would become more negative. Their fiscal contribution would also become negative.
Their GDP and fiscal contributions would be reduced further if migrant workers had filled positions which resulted in UK workers remaining unemployed. The latest figures from the ONS show that the number of people unemployed has increased by 280,000over the last year so it seems reasonable to assume that some of this increase results from A8 immigration. "

In conclusion, although immigration of people to fill low-paid positions may have limited economic impact in the short-term, it is a highly negative strategy for the longer-term as it lowers productivity, will probably lower GDP per head and will lead to a fiscal deficit as the workers are joined by more dependants.

At a recent conference addressing the impact of migrant workers on the Scottish economy the deputy director of the CBI Scotland said “We cannot fall into the trap of thinking that immigration is the sole solution to the skills problems we face. It is not an alternative to up-skilling our indigenous workforce, nor should immigration be seen as an alternative to labour market policies that target those on incapacity and unemployment benefits and help them back to work. Developing the skills and abilities of the existing and future working population must be a priority"

67

GP,

09/11/2006 17:16:16

67# too advanced and intellectual for those who are quick to post against what we both see as the way forward. We have no choice but to reduce the numbers claiming benefit. As I stated before for many, the jobs currently being filled by cheap migrant labour some of whom are being abused, are the same roles that are required to be available for those in benefit transition.
Anyone who thinks we can afford to continue such high levels of real unemployment are kidding themselves on. The costs are greater than that faced by the so called pensions crisis.

68

Davie M,

Leith 09/11/2006 19:36:22

All I know is there are two gorgeous Polish blondes working behind the counter in my local chinese. Note to Mr Kacyzynski : please send more.

69

David M,

Glasgow 09/11/2006 20:36:35

Hey! I was David M first! From post 37

70

,

09/11/2006 21:38:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 158795, Article id was mapped to record!
71

Faye,

In the boardroom 09/11/2006 21:40:47

I'd have thought any employer paying lower wages to Poles is an act of discrimination, especially if another national received a higher wage for the same job.

72

HP,

09/11/2006 22:23:35

#72 Adam,
Whose grandparents do you accuse?

73

TREV,

Poland 09/11/2006 23:00:47

56 Fred, does it occur to you that the tax the Poles are paying in Britain and the NI (which they'll probably never apply to use when they return home) goes into the treasury? Until recently Poles had to pay double tax in Poland and Britain.

Kaczynski and his Facist Talibanesque allies are fretting like mad because they are faced with having to import labour from Ukraine etc (and probably Bulgaria and Romania) to fill very low level jobs, as well as skilled ones. Funny how they're all so Euro-sceptic too.

74

gsm,

edinburgh 10/11/2006 00:52:09

The Polish President,what a breath of fresh air.
Finally a politician who talks some sense.
I fully support his intention to restore the death penalty for paedophiles in Poland.
As a long term advocate of the return of capital punishment I welcome his comments.
Perhaps we could give Poland,McConnell in exchange!

75

Alisha,

NC, USA 10/11/2006 04:26:22

This reminds all too well of what is happening in America. Mexicans have swarmed the US and are working to return to their own country (some, anyway). They only get paid $3-$5 (roughly £6-£10). The employers oh-so-gladly hire them since they are willing to work for such low wages because their wallets will stay fat. Whereas an American demands minimum or higher wages which is about $6 to $8. And most of the work is very hard work, farming etc. And the Americans are too lazy to do it themselves. But, if they were forced to do it they would, though not with dumb mexicans at their disposal. One dollar is worth 11 mexican pesos. So, if they lived here (most illegally) for 5 years and in that time saving their money, they can go back home and pretty much live like Kings. It is ridiculous. I think no matter what country, the people should stay in their own country and let their voice be heard instead of letting someone run them out of the place they grew up. You cant get anything done if you dont fight back. Express your opinions over and over then sooner or later, something will be done about your problem.

76

Siroos,

10/11/2006 04:47:52

Alish, $3 = £2.20,

Please use a calculator and before doing so, read the instructions.
USA is made up of immigrants. True or false?
Mexicans are dumb because they are poor?

77

wattie>x 1,

10/11/2006 11:17:31

Most Pole's I met, and actually worked with early post-war, were warm hearted, friendly and very hard working. Some, I still meet occasionally here in the West Country where I now live, who served in the Polish Navy although their numbers are now rapidly declining by age.
There were many Polish miners who came to Scotland after the 1st World War to work in the coal-fields because so many off our own young Scots had perished on the blood soaked battle fields of Western Europe. In Auchenleck Ayrshire; was the Loneski mining family who were very well known and highly respected with a son who played for the local junior football team.
Their off-springs were just as proud Scots as *Rabbie Burns*was.
Many thousands of UK building workers toiled in Germany during the 1970s and later; and for much lower wages than their German colleagues but the low gages paid, were much higher than the greedy UK employers would ever have paid here.
Most returned; many met young German women, married and remained there, and I am sure must have off-springs who are now justly proud of being German, just as my grand and great-grand children are proud to be English..

78

wattie>x 1,

10/11/2006 12:19:09

SF: Simple answer to your simplistic comment.

We CAN SURVIVE without greedy selfish employers!

But the planet couldn't function AND SURVIVE without toilers!

And the great pity is, most toilers don't understand and realise, it is they who possess the ultimate political power and not the wealthy elite who live the life of *Reilly* in their sham life of luxury!

Whose children get the best Education avaliable?
Whose children receive the best Medical Care?
Whose children are most likely to live in a happy and caring environment?
Whose children are never likely to see a blood soaked battlefield?
Whose children were prisons built for?
Whose children, are likely to use drugs unmolested?
IF ONLY THEY REALISED????????????

79

gsm,

edinburgh 10/11/2006 13:19:21

The Polish President is talking some serious sense on the ridiculous levels of emigration from Poland to the UK.
To all emigrants from Poland,I would say you are being very selfish and greedy.
Your country is in deep economic trouble because of this mass exodus,you should do the decent thing and return.
You are also placing an unwelcome extra burden on Health and Education services here.
How many times have I read of Polish people in Scotland,who are Lawyers,Physics Teachers,English Teachers and graduates,doing very menial jobs?
It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

80

Adam,

Kansas, USA 10/11/2006 19:13:59

We are greatful that the Polish government wants us back. Signed, 3 million Polish Holocaust victims.

81

HP,

Tropical Island 10/11/2006 22:43:47

#81
Oh, Man, living in paradise (Poland) is so boring.
Everybody in Poland is so rich and bored of being rich.
Our government look after us so carefully and provide such great service that we don’t have to work anymore because every month every adult polish receive enough money to buy for example tropical island. Man, we are really bored living like that. Eh, how many islands you can own?
We feel that our life has no point that is why we are
coming to Scotland. We want to know how poor countries are living and we want to know it from the roots. We know that you have lots of economic and social problems that is why we are coming here to make this country as wealthy as us. No more differences between us and we will do it with pleasure and commitment.

82

TREV,

Poland 11/11/2006 09:11:28

#81

I think you need to consider the facts before coming out with such stuff about people being selfish (unless you were being ironic). If Poland was such a great place to work then ask yourself why it has, for a long time, had such high unemployment. Perhaps the reason so many highly qualified people take menial jobs in Britain is because they can't get the jobs they are qualified for in Poland. Also, cleaning a table in Britain can bring in more than a highly qualified job in Poland. Believe me.

People have mentioned 'sensible house prices' and low cost of living in Poland, but these are only from the viewpoint of someone living in a place like Britain. House prices are relative to local income, and prices here have soared since Poland joined EU.

On the point about being 'selfish', well maybe Britain and Germany and other countries will decide not to be 'selfish' by buying cheap land and property in East Europe and driving the prices up for locals, or building factories here to take advantage of the cheap labour...

I regularly go into rural villages where there are three generations trying to survive on grandparents' pensions because there are no jobs in the area thanks to years of mishandled agricultural policies (and do you think EU will improve that?). A lot of these small farms have no future but to sell to 'generous' rich city people and foreigners who are nice enough to buy this cheap land and build on it.

Only yesterday I was talking with a young man in a video shop and his comment about President K's comments were' "There is no way they can keep us here! I don't want to stay..." Now, why would such a lovely chap as Mr K and his forerunners inspire such comments? I'll run back and tell the lad not to be so selfish.

83

TREV,

Poland 11/11/2006 09:14:32

#82 Adam,

I suppose that goes for France, Germany and almost every other country in germany which handed your fore-fathers over?

I suppose your history books tell you Hitler was Polish, do they?

Now, what was the name of that country that turned the odd ship load away?

84

Adam,

Kansas, USA 11/11/2006 20:13:04

Ok, Trev, you made your point. Nobody liked the Jews. The article is about Poland. Not France, not Germany. The Poles should not shy away from the blood they have on their collective hands. Make no mistake about it, collaborating with the Nazi's during WW2 in the extermination of the Jews, was something the majority of Poles excelled at. And when Jews returned to Poland in 1945, more than a few Poles got nostalgic for the Pogrom, and killed some more.

85

HP,

Tropical Island 11/11/2006 22:09:34

#86

Here we go, American Jews. You never stop heh?
I spent a few awsome years in USA and I met some Jews. Some of them were nice to me, some of them were not. Some of them i like, some of them I don't.
I have never judged them just because they are Jews. They have never judged me just because I am Polish (hope so). I have never thought to judge people because of their nationality, religion or race. So why you are trying to tell me that I do not like Jews? So why Jews are trying to say all Polish hate Jews? I do not like it. So if I do not like it am I antisemite?

Yes during WWII there were people who collaborated with nazis (so like French, Chechs, Ukrainians, Slovakians, Lithuanians and others).
But there were also hundred thousends Polish who were hiding and protecting Jews risking not only their own lifes but also life of their families.
Under nazis occupation for hiding Jews you could lose not only your own life but life of your entire family!
Tell me, would you hide your neighbour if you knew that you could be executed, your wife could be executed, your children could be executed and bunch of random people from the street because of that!
Tell me!

Finallly just one honest question Adam.
What you, American Jews have done to help European Jews? Tell me!

86

TREV,

Poland 12/11/2006 17:47:36

Adam, obviously i didn't make my point well enough. The point was that a large area of Europe was under occupation by the Nazis and it is just too easy for us to sit in our confortable homes these days and sprout out how people should have behaved when they were frightened and under constant threat of death.

maybe if you read about Nazi policy towards Poles, Russians, Czechs etc you might get a clearer view of things (but why spoil it for you?). Under the Nazis whole (non-Jewish) villages were destroyed in revenge for partisan attacks, summary, public executions on the street, diet restrictions and cultural restrictions... because Hitler felt countries like Poland (especially) should have been in existence.

Auschwitz was actually used as a concentration camp for POLISH prisoners over a year before Jews were interred there as policy. Doubtless this is what you mean by collaboration... allowing the Nazis to practise on them first!

Yes, there were collaborations and yes there were pogroms before and afterwards, but you are tarring a whole people because of isolated incidents like Jedwabne. It is easy for you to say a whole country collaborated, and to talk of collective guilt, but would it be fair to say that the majority of Jews went lamb-like to the slaughter and so share the blame? OF COURSE NOT! But at the Auschwitz museum it is stressed again and again that most people thought they were 'simply' being moved to eastern Europe and so they didn't resist as much as they should have... so if THEY thought that, why should the average Polish citizen think any different, particularly when a nazi soldier would have had no more thought about shooting a 'sub-human' Slav than a Jew?

Stories also circulate about Jews who killed Poles in cold blood when given ultimatiums by nazi officers. Are we to think this is the actions of a collective, or the actions of a frightened person who thinks they might escape death themselves. Somehow, i don't think a l

87

TREV,

Poland 12/11/2006 17:50:41

... also have the problem of discouraging people or making the anti-semitic groups ammunition in their ideas that Jews are the enemy of Poland (funny! I never saw evidence of enemy activity when i went to a service in the Warsaw synagogue).

One such person is a member of Mr Kaczynski's government. many of the young people who have left Poland loath the man and the existence of such a government is why amny of them won't go back yet.


 

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