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Published Date:
02 January 2007
Romania and Bulgaria formally joined the EU yesterday Concern over rising UK immigration, despite it fuelling UK-economy Flow of incoming migrants insufficient to halt Scotland's population drop
Key quote
"It's not fair that some EU members won't let us come and work" - YORDANKA SOKOLOVA, 22

Story in full THE first Romanian and Bulgarian workers admitted to Britain since their countries joined the European Union started arriving at UK airports yesterday.

Even as the new workers touched down on UK soil, the political row about their presence boiled on, with starkly contrasting estimates about how many would eventually arrive.

Romania and Bulgaria formally joined the EU yesterday, taking its membership to 27 and its population to 490 million.

Unlike the citizens of previous "accession" countries like Poland, yesterday's new entrants do not have the unrestricted right to work in the UK.

Instead, the government says it will grant around 22,000 work permits to those qualified to fill vacancies in designated industries that are short of labour.

Yordanka Sokolova, a 22-year-old Bulgarian, was one of the first to arrive in London yesterday, flying from Sofia to take up work in the UK as an au pair. She complained that the UK system meant she must work only in the job she is permitted to do, "and I can't look for another job".

But she said Britain was still more generous than many other EU countries. "It's not fair that some EU members won't let us come and work," she said.

Four flights from Sofia landed at London airports yesterday, and the same number came from Bucharest, the Romanian capital. Later this month, a budget airline will begin a service from Bucharest to Luton, with its cheapest tickets costing £35.

Travelling by coach can be even cheaper, and some people began arriving at London's Victoria bus station last night after two-day journeys. In addition to those granted work permits, some self-employed Bulgarians and Romanians will also be admitted to Britain. All citizens of the two countries will be allowed to remain in Britain for up to three months without paperwork. That has led some to predict a wave of illegal working.

Migrationwatch, which campaigns against mass immigration, has predicted there could be 180,000 arrivals this year. By comparison, the Institute for Public Policy Research expects 56,000. The Home Office is running advertising campaigns in Romania and Bulgaria trying to deter unregistered workers.

But in contrast, the Treasury is banking on the newcomers to sustain Britain's economy.

Gordon Brown, the Chancellor, last month raised his estimate of the "trend rate" of economic growth - the economy's long-term "speed limit" - based partly on the supply of immigrant labour.

Arrivals fail to halt population decline


SCOTLAND is a "net importer" of people from elsewhere in the United Kingdom, with new arrivals more than offsetting the number of Scots who leave for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Yet the flow of UK migrants into Scotland is still not enough to reverse the declining population, a new study has found.

Research from Halifax Bank of Scotland today suggests that over the past decade, 53,000 more people have moved to Scotland from elsewhere in the UK than have left the country.

Nonetheless, Scotland's population fell by a total of 9,000 over the same period.

The net fall is explained largely by the number of deaths exceeding the number of births in Scotland.

The suggestion that Scotland is relatively successful at luring people from other parts of the UK will be good news for the Scottish Executive, which has promised to address the country's falling population.

The Scottish National Party says the Executive should encourage young Scots to stay in the country by offering financial aid to first-time house-buyers.

The full article contains 608 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Guga,

Rockall 02/01/2007 02:17:29

"the government says it will grant around 22,000 work permits to those qualified to fill vacancies in designated industries that are short of labour."

And how many will be working illegally? Let's face it, this mob of numpties have no idea even of the number of illegal immigrants in this country, so why try and fob us off with statement like the above.

This will be yet another source of cheap labour for those companies that do not wish to pay the going rate to Scottish workers. Many of them will not even be paid the legal minimum wage, and the government will do next to nothing about such exploitation.

This whole EU thing has got completely out of control, from things like the CFP to endless supplies of red tape and bureaucracy. The sooner we get out of the EU, the better.

2

Paul Voltaire,

www.paulvoltaire.spaces.live.com 02/01/2007 06:35:40

We need everybody we can get in Scotland.
At least these folks are prepared to work unlike many of our own kind who are benefit scrounging wasters.

3

Alec in Chicago,

02/01/2007 07:38:27

What about Americans?

What about Americans of Scottish descent?

Or will we have to wait for Scottish independence - and will that even help get one in?

4

Alec in Chicago,

02/01/2007 07:39:14

p.s.

We already speak a very similar language!

5

bill-alba,

Fife 02/01/2007 09:02:03

the government needs the controls to do anything about bringing back people of Scots descent which should be their priority...

6

bill-alba,

Fife 02/01/2007 09:02:56

alex..not that similar a language..(we speak scots)..

7

Sile,

planet mayhem 02/01/2007 09:40:50

Ho Hum here we go again Dr Reid will strut the stage saying how only those allowed in with a job.hahahahaha and before we know where we are the black economy will thrive with people prepared to work for below minimum wage....

8

Radu,

Romania 02/01/2007 09:51:53

This fear of Romanians that immigrate to GB is not justify. Romanians prefer Spain and Italy(about half of Romanians from abroad work here) because we speak very much the same language and we have the same lifestyle. I don't think that we are so eager to leave Romania today the same way we were in the '90. The basic and medium salaries are growing almost every 3 months, the prices aren't increases anymore like in the pass and the unemployment is reducing due to investments ,so we don't feel like going abroad anymore.

9

bill, england,

02/01/2007 10:00:33

This is how the world economy operates; desperate people working for low wages and rich folks running things for their own benefit.

Is this news?

10

JG,

Fife 02/01/2007 10:40:01

#4 Alec
We do speak a very similar language - it's just that the Americans can't spell!!!

11

Groucho,

02/01/2007 10:45:27

Why don't we deport British tossers and bring in workers in there place. Mr. "Got any spare change?"isn't exactly an asset to society. We spend hundreds every week on their housing, food and "care workers". Then we allow them to beg for their drug money. One in, one out!

12

mr angry,

ayrshire 02/01/2007 10:57:29

Groucho correct , we ought to deport our own scroungers and parasites and let these people who are willing to work to earn a living, rather than sponge off other people, in. We may have some peole unable to work or find a job but we certainly have a large amount of no users who are only willing to lay about or work on the side anmd get double money. Should be a maximum amount of time on benefits and then they should be offered a job or left to fend on their own.

13

Em.C.Spiteri,

Harrow 02/01/2007 11:16:57

Migrants may be allowed in provided they have something to offer besides cheap labour. Look at London, we have many migrants claiming and never contribute anything. That is unfair.

14

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 02/01/2007 11:18:53

12 & 13 ...

Spot on !

PC politics makes me sick ... A saftey net should be there for about a year - ANYONE who wants to work can find about ten jobs in that time. If they are feckless or lazy enough not to have found a way to contribute to society in that time ...

We should stop making excuses for parasitic and violent behavour ... there is none!

The Larger EU is just an excuse for Goverment to import a willing workforce so they avoid the issue of dealing with our own nations work shy individuals and they get to keep the vast administration that looks after these sorts ....

15

bill, england,

02/01/2007 11:20:46

12. Groucho

Believe it or not, there are people who like to have beggars around, because it makes them feel good to hand them money.

The same logic goes with 'charitable donations' where many people feel the need to give money away because they feel they don't deserve it.

It is a two-way process, part of our social system., and worthy of close examination.

16

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 02/01/2007 11:22:33

Apologies for the non sensical para --- that middle bit meant to finish:

"If they are feckless or lazy enough not to have found a way to contribute to society in that time then why should the society that cares for them so much as to give them this golden chance go on supporting them indefinitely?"

17

Steve99,

Let in the discount lawyers please 02/01/2007 11:44:05
18

Ian G,

Edinburgh 02/01/2007 11:45:32

"I beg because I can't get a job"
How come those from other lands some without english can get a job?
"I have a degree in social studies and cleaning jobs are beneath me"

"Besides its not my fault that I like a drink with my drugs"

Seriously I don't see foreigners coming over to take our jobs or to beg on ours streets.
Where I work I see Americans: Poles; Australians, Portuguese, English, Pakistanis, Moroccans, Indians and Irish.

Those on our streets begging are mostly Scottish wasters. And I'm not talking about those who sell the Big Issue.

19

Buckfastleigh,

Devon 02/01/2007 11:46:31

What a change to hear that Romans and Bulgars are returning to Bitannia and Caledonia too.

When the Second Augustan Legion founded Exeter we were have heard they did a pretty good job... and Buckfast wine was the happy outcome.

Yes Britannia did well: pity about the Saxons that followed!

Come and stay and bring good cheer for 2007 Happy New Year!

20

Zibi is a Jambo,

02/01/2007 12:07:04

Welcome to the Romanians and Bulgarians. Now we can sign young players from these countries as well. That's all that matters to me!

21

DonB,

Peterborough UK 02/01/2007 12:12:50

Oh do please come here, come and buy yourself a house, they are going cheap, about a quarter of a £million on average.

We don't mind going without a place to lay our weary heads. One thing! Be prepared, in line with Blair's ideals, for a collapse of Britian's ecconomy and homes going for a song.

But that cannot be! New Labour are not a party of boom and bust, whatever is wrong with me!

22

jazzmann,

leicester 02/01/2007 12:16:33

Surprise surprise ! ! The amount of scots are declining . I left to get a job as many others have done . Will I come back ? Not on your life jack .
Too many rich in postitions of power and whats left is a clique of god forsaken whinging do gooders who care more about political correctness than getting indigionus Scots work in any long term industry.

23

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 02/01/2007 12:25:56

Something is not quite right

In Dundee - their are a SURPLUS of nurses at the moment actually - my sister qualified about 1 yr back and took a while to get her 1st job as between budget cutbacks and lack of posts she found it difficult. her friend qualifies this year and has been told she may not find it easy to walk into a job - quote from her tutors at college/hospital.

How many did Labour say Poland would add to our population - something like 20,000 was it - it is at least 600,000 - that is the level of competence we have at the very top of government.

Poles are really polite, hard-working folk and a helluva lot nicer than many Dundonians for sure ... that said we cannot be an open door and if we do have a policy to restrict more people coming in it has to be robust. Currently in my opinion we have no idea how many legal and illegal immigrants we have.

I resent that because we could do it in a way that a quota was set each year rather than this fiasco we have now.

Another LABOUR 'success'!!

24

Wullie Coyle,

Sarf London 02/01/2007 12:27:14

1940 my wife as a young nurse was blown to buggery and two hundred girls sharing her shelter were killed. Her three brothers fought in the navy the army and the airforce and her neighbours twin boys were killed at Arnhem. In those days we had no immigration problems just the "EMPIRE WINDRUSH" enough said on the matter.

25

JohnDarroch,

02/01/2007 12:39:28

Wullie,

What was EMPIRE RUSH?

26

ROXY ROOLS,

02/01/2007 12:47:35

if they are prepared to work..let them in. if they want to go about begging and thieving and organising criminal gangs...a la mafia bulgarska...get them out; and throw out with them all these scrouging parasites from edinburgh city centre...saw one arriving in Princes Street saturday morning 23 dec in a taxi ready to take position. Bet they were all tucked up nicely on Hogmanay during the 85 mph gales...part-time homeless!

27

John from Aberdeen,

Hastings in the sunny south 02/01/2007 13:32:48

yet another Government farce. How can it possibly help the economy? It only lines the pockets of the companies that employ cheap labour. So, is it ok then, that housing is still sky high and my son can't get a job to pay his mortgage becasue he is being undercut by cheap labour immigrants who are sending the money back out of the country. Yes good idea Gordon Brown!!

28

jbeard,

london 02/01/2007 13:46:26

The real problem isn't really poor people looking for work. Exactly the same things were said about the Irish, and then asian immigrants.

The real problem is the overwhelming power that has been handed to our infinitely greedy and rapacious employer class.

Worker rights in Britain are now largely non-existent. Even if you do succeed in winning an industrial tribunal case against an unjust employer, the chances are that you will end up on a blacklist, and never work again.

In Britain, you can quite legally be made redundant, and replaced the next day by an agency worker !

And it is precisely those jobs where workers are the worst organised, and where pay is very low, who are most vulnerable.

However, because of eu legislation, all you smug, respectable middle class people who thought you were immune from the economic barbarity of capitalism had better watch out - you are next in line.

Until proper trade union and worker rights are re-established in this country, its going to be a steady trip downhill, as the workers of this country are replaced with the much cheaper working class from eastern europe and africa.

29

Chris,

Grangemouth 02/01/2007 13:51:51
30

Di,

02/01/2007 13:53:53

Changes have to be slow or they hurt people.

31

lilleth,

Scotland 02/01/2007 13:56:57

I'm sorry I think we have to look at our own education system and work ethic- get our own unemployed in jobs before we go letting in so many imigrants.

eg a local 'care agency' providing community care plus day centres for adults with disabilities. A young girl I know who voluntarily worked in two day centres to gain experience and find out if she was suited to this work applied for work with the care provider she volunteered with. She couldn't get a job, yet this company went to Poland and recruited young polish workers. Three of these girls who spoke little English were sent to a centre for adults with extreme disabilities, they left within a half hour crying their eyes out unable to cope. The girl later got a job with another dare I say it possibly more reputable company

Don't tell me it's not about exploiting cheap labour- a local fish factory employs loads of eastern european workers who are shacking up in over crowded cheap B&B's being paid a pitance.
They too are being exploited, it's shocking and a national disgrace.

Here in the Borders we have always had I think a good rapport with the Poles as many who served in WW11 stayed and married local lasses, there are polish links through this in my own family. I'd hate to see it ruined by floods of cheap incomming labour, expecting great jobs and money to find only exploitation and resentment.
yes our student nurses Dr's and physios can't get jobs when they qualify, because it is cheaper to employ a foreigner on a temporary contract. My daughter spent several years needing physio every week when she was growing up, but every 6 months it was some new swedish or dutch student.
I say get out the EU. It's all nonsense and GB is the only one stupid enough to abide by the rules

32

,

02/01/2007 13:56:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 257139, Article id was mapped to record!
33

Ryan,

Helsinki 02/01/2007 14:00:52

Well, you can always vote for a party that takes you out of the EU.
Theres the UKIP, but I can't see many a Scot voting for them, as their economic policies are free-market, and their powerbase is in Southern England,
Or the BNP, who's economics policies are socialist, but their policies on immigration and race are perhaps a bit too much for most of us.
Sadly none of the purely Scottish parties offer EU withdrawal. Even the SNP are perfectly willing to sacrifice the fishing industry and stay in Europe.

Oh, and here's a little tale about that nice Mr Barroso, who promised an investigation into dodgy practises by Spanish business after the Scottish Power takeover:
"The German newspaper Die Welt reported that the President of the European Commission, José Barroso had spent a week on the yacht of the Greek shipping billionaire Spiro Latsis. It emerged soon afterwards that this had occurred only a month before the Commission approved 10.3 million euro of Greek state aid for Latsis' shipping company."
Not going to happen, I'm afraid..

34

Sambo,

The deep south 02/01/2007 14:26:26

Will these immigrants be enough to fill the void of unemployed Glaswegians?

35

georegc,

Alloa 02/01/2007 14:29:13

Here Isit alone in the office today organising the first batches of new accession countries to comre and work in Scotland.

They are not beggars, thieves, prostitutes, gangsters but building and construction workers who will fill the large skills gap in the Scottish labopur market. they will be self employed, pay taxes, NI etc and legally work for some of the country's biggest employers.

It is just a pity that I cannot find work for another 1000 who are excluded undert he restrictions imposed by the government.

Welcome to Britain in 2007.

36

lilleth,

Scotland 02/01/2007 14:48:48

True brit 34 do you mean 'coming' 'asian' and 'non educated?
dear georgegc37- yes most are hard working and contribute to the economy but surely the point is we need to train our youngsters to work in the construction industry?
Likewise friends of mine in the police in some areas with large east european imigrant populations are already suffering from ghettoisation, i.e the croations in one street won't talk to the serbs in the other, riots will break out and no one can find out whats happened because the English is so poor and they are seriously worried about the influx from further countries which have huge extremely well organised criminal populations.

Speak to anyone who lives in Holland about turkish crime?

37

David Robb,

Edinburgh 02/01/2007 15:00:47

I hear everyone talking about how these incommers will take away jobs from native Scots. If that is the case why is there so little unemployment in our cities, particularly Edinburgh. I for example advertised a vacancy for a month in the Job Centre, and on a website, no response whatsoever. I advertised in a well-read Edinburgh eveing paper, got 5 responses. One lasted one week, and one lasted 3 hours. The job offered is not a skilled position, but require a certain amount of effort and application.
I can only hope that some of these new incommers apply for my vacancy!

38

conservative,

Fife 02/01/2007 15:05:11

We have had the huge influx of Polish criminals and prostitutes. Any wild guesses what we can expect now?

Georegc, people-traders like you disgust me. Doubtless you screen these people really thoroughly before you welcome them in?

39

conservative,

Fife 02/01/2007 15:07:37

David Robb, how much are you paying? If it is a lowish rate then who could live in or commute to Edinburgh to do the work? There is no shortage of staff if they are paid the rate for the job.

40

Duncan,

02/01/2007 15:52:00

40 & 41.

Most of the jobs in Job Centres are in the low end of the market, poor quality jobs, with poor quality prospects, wages and conditions. That is why they have to resort to the job centre, the last resort for the desperate.
They are what I call JOB jobs. Just over broke. As someone who was trying to return to work after injury and an operation, I scanned these jobs regularly. Some of them were dreadful. Offered by equally dreadfull people. I went along to one, who I know for a fact had a high turn over of staff, and was always advertising, just to satisfy my curiosity. The owner of the company conducting the interview was off handed, rude and pig ignorant. Referring to me as "you people," we are all potential thieves who are ripping him of. When I left I told him that I would sooner poke my eyes out with sharp sticks than work for him. Fortunately I have a pension and my kids are grown up and in good jobs, so I am not desperate. But there are many who are.
If you reward someone to the tune of just over the minimum wage, by the time you take of travel and meals it is just not worth getting out for, and that is a fact.
One company I know pays Polish workers so badly that they can put two of them doing a job that would normally be done by one native worker.
The largest employer in America and Britain is Manpower, who exploit and rip of workers.
I am glad to say that I now have my own business starting so I will not have to think about exploitation.

41

Kenneth,

02/01/2007 16:35:56

This is the result of what has been going on for hundreds of years. Canada, The United States, Australia, New Zealand, etc are full of indigeneous people who came generations ago from Scotland. My father's parents came to homestead in Canada; that is get free land in return for developing the country. Saskatchewan was a place no indigeneous people already established in Quebec, Ontario, and the Maritimes, wanted to go. So in came this rabble. Later came the hordes of Asians, Indians, Irish, Ukranians(my mother's side) to do the jobs none of the earlier indiginized natives would do. So the precious island sent the same bunch all over the world to hear, probably, the same bellyaching. They started the same way: hard work, low paying jobs, prostitution, crime. What goes around comes around.

Canada, The United States and others put caps on immigration when the economy became what the big boys wanted. The immigrants became indigineous who now bellyache about illegals.

It is a balancing act. The question to ask is, are those on the dole capable of working? If so then put them off of the dole and to work at the menial jobs that the immigrants are brought in to do. Soon they will, just maybe, see that the problem lies in the society and do something about it. The capitalist system cannot work alone, just as the socialist system cannot work alone. There must be a blend of the two. In order for any system to work all must participate as fully as possible. Importing workers who are either too grateful of too scared to complain about wages and conditions is only pulling the country back. Chaos and flux is the best ingediant of the capitalist system re workers. High unemployment in a country used to mean low wages. The problem now is that unemployment in a country means low wages in jobs filled by worse conditions abroad. The anchor is the lowest conditions abroad. The connection to these conditions is where the danger lies.

42

Canadian,

Toronto 02/01/2007 17:44:04

Like everything their are pros and cons. However in my situation, having spent the last 2 years in Scotland and Ireland on working holiday visas, I have seen a lot more cons with the immigration pattern, unlike in Australia or Canada where people immigrate and become Canadian or Australian, immigrants to the UK and Ireland, have no interest and set up as if still in their country and do nothing but complain about the natives and their ways. I am educated and want to make my life in Scotland, but it is so hard for me to immigrate. For years Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English have had an open pass to immigrate to Canada, I think it's time to return the favour, you would be surprised how many of us across the pond want to live in Scotland

43

media4,

Canada 02/01/2007 17:49:03

#40...Conservative...where do you get your figures for the "huge influx of Polish criminals and prostitutes." I'd be interested to read them. #34...True Brit....what is a "real Brit?" Would that be the Picts, the Celts, the Romans, the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes, the Norsemen, the Norman French, or the Hanoverian Germans?

44

Bluey,

Scotland 02/01/2007 17:59:12

Government figures show 950,000 people claimed Jobseekers' Allowance last month and its rising - one in eight has claimed unemployment benefits for at least six of the last seven years. More than half a million have arrived from Poland and other countries since 2004. Spot the relationship - the UK unemployed have barriers to taking up jobs, whether practical (such as limited access to reasonably priced childcare) or attitude (a belief in the entitlement to receiving benefits rather than taking a low paid job and contributing back to the community).

A whole swathe of UK working class society is anything but working and its not the employers fault that they are attracted to enthusiastic and flexible workers from the EU.

However,the focus on EU migrants is out of proportion - immigration from Eastern Europe in 2005 accounted for only just over one in five foreign immigrants.

Sir Andrew Green writes "the strains in terms of schools, health and housing refuse to go away - not to mention the impact on the employment prospects of British people as the unemployment numbers steadily increase. These are conveniently airbrushed out of the picture."

The entry of a couple of tiny countries to the EU will contribute only modestly to the overall impact so don't get it out of proportion.

45

Posvibe,

North Carolina, USA 02/01/2007 18:49:15

I would be thrilled to be allowed to work in Britain. As a social worker over here I would be most interested in learning from your system and it's benefits. I also would be able to communicate with minimal difficulties I suspect. Anyone out there want to hire me? I only have myself to feed with the occasional pint here and there and, as a social worker, I am used to low pay!

46

Alec in Chicago,

02/01/2007 19:09:29

6 bill-alba
Yes, I know you speak Scots, and I have been delighted to see articles suggesting that you are finally thowing off the English brainwashing that Scots is somehow sub-standard, inferior, low-class, less-than... However, aren't most Scots able to use "standard British English"? (Sorry, don't know else to refer to it.) That is the 'similar language' to which I referred. You seem to do well with it. I thought most Scots were bidialectic - not to mention those who are also bilingual (Gaelic-speakers).

11 JG
Don't know for certain how-why our spelling systems diverged... Perhaps it was the Revolution - get away from England, change things over... It's something for a lingusitics major to look into... Perhaps I will...

19 Ian G
Funny you should mention Americans. Here the insistence is that Americans are the ones who are too lazy, want too much money, etc., and the immigrants are better workers.

39 David Robb
What's the job? Can I qualify? I have a (rather useless) university degree. I'm on my own, used to smallish living spaces, have only a library of about 800 volumes (which I might be willing to store or pare down) and a pair of budgies who don't seem interested in adding to their own numbers. I wouldn't even take anyone's spot in the local - I rarely drink.


Sorry for the late return. My computer was taken over by a guest.

47

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 02/01/2007 19:18:19

This country was founded and built on immigrants. Some came willingly, some because of economic conditions and some forced. True they had to prove themselfs by starting at the bottom and earning the opportunities. However I think we all are missing the point. Ever since the "60's we have seen a trend that we call PC. The family, religion and morals have been almost banned. Open borders thru the EU is the thing. You have EU whose goal is to make all of Europe one country. Here in the western hemisphere we have nafta. An open economic plan leading to one government. The same thing is happening in Asia and don't forget the Islamist. All vying to stake out their regional boundries. The ultimate is for the UN to be the government. I don't think so. One world government will be the EU and within that will be France and Italy the power and Germany a vice power. If you don't doubt me then look at the laws passed in your country, other countries and then look at the power and authority that the EU and UN are amassing.

48

Aoda,

Pennsylvania Wilds 02/01/2007 19:19:53

On top of that add the illegal immigrants being encouraged by our government to enter this country. Regardless of which party they belong to, they want to have open borders and the citizens don't count. It is all about very big business and political power.

49

Hair Care Baby McGhee,

02/01/2007 19:50:00

Asked for racist TrueBrit 34 to be removed. . . . . no response from the moderator

50

Cathie Christie,

Arroyo Grande, California 02/01/2007 20:08:30

I was born in Scotland (1939), now an American citizen. Question? Since I was born in Scotland, I am told I can live in Scotland permanently if I want to.
Can anyone answer this question for me.
Thanks.

51

wattie>x 1,

02/01/2007 20:27:04

After creating chaos and near anarchy within the NHS during their tenure in control of the country, quite recently; New Labour set about spending countless millions on bringing medical staff from around the four corners off the earth to replenish the *scarcity* off doctors, nurses and medical expertise, then suddenly, the NHS began sacking medical staff from around the country and closing hospitals as they were apparently now over-staffed. What's going on in this crazy country?
Certainly we have a number off *layabouts'* but before rushing to condemn them; ask yourselves why?
Would you clamber out of your bed to go and toil for the minimum wage which is after all, merely a paltry subsistence wage? I am sure those ready to criticise would probably be the first to willingly join the many *layabouts*.
In my locality, it costs almost £2.50 each day to make a return bus journey to and fro from the estates to either go to work or get into town.
This island under New Labour has been steadily reducing its status to that of a third world country, until it has finally became the dustbin off EUROPE.

52

Sambo,

The deep south 02/01/2007 20:32:20

Cathie #52,
Yes you certainly can, you have dual nationality, you can either opt for your US passport or you can apply for a British passport. By virtue of the country of your birth you are indeed able to live permanently in Scotland.

53

biggles,

glasgow 02/01/2007 20:35:34

question IS,would i get free health care,dole money,housing benefit,go straight to the top of the housing list if i went to their country?the answer,as everyone in the UK knows is a resounding NO would i B......S,no wonder the BNP are getting thousands upon thousands of new voters,and yes im on the dole,reason is ive been for several jobs and guess what.....you guessed it

54

biggles,

glasgow 02/01/2007 20:40:20

What would the great war tommies and the tommies from the second war think whats happening to our land fit for immigrants....oops sorry heroes

55

JimC,

02/01/2007 21:05:19

# jbeard 30 & lilleth #33
Spot on both, I am sick of this lazy don't want to work attitude of the middle classes. Time to wake up and smell what your shovelling here folks. The reality for many unemployed in Scotland is bleak. Low wages and high local taxes make working worth about £20 a week in Killie for a middle aged married couple with no dependents. So lets look at an example, 40 hours at £5.35 per hour = £214 a week before deductions and NI, or £170 a week after deductions. From that take £50 for rent and £25 for council tax plus £10 a week travelling expenses. Heating and Electricity accounts for £30 a week Total £115. Now say we have a weekly food bill of £40 at least, that leaves you £15. So come on you lot that shouts about those that don't want to work, any takers for a new job in Killie for £15 a week! Either support those in poverty or shut up until your know what your talking about.

56

Sambo,

The deep south 02/01/2007 21:16:20

People can lift themselves from poverty, education is the key, I held a 40 hr a week job and went to school at night to complete a bachelors and masters degree, it took 6 years of nightschool but I did it.

57

Alec in Chicago,

02/01/2007 21:49:41

# 52 Cathie

Don't settle for just one passport - get them both, if you can qualify for the UK passport (as you certainly do for the American). Do you know how dangerous - or, at least, uncomfortable - it can be to travel in some places on an American passport? I'm seeking an affordable way to get a second passport, myself - even before emigrating.

58

Lightdivision,

USA 02/01/2007 22:27:52

The Us admittted a lot of Romanians and Bulgarians who had secret intelligence service experience. They promptly set up the most sophisticated burglary rings ever seen in America. Their ingratitude is stunning. Watch out as your crime statistics skyrocket.

59

Paula,

02/01/2007 22:54:02

#57 JimC, it isn't just a middle class thing about the layabout jobless people. We live in social rented accommodation (£50 per week - try a more realistic £75!) and yes, there isn't much left out the wage packet each month once everything is paid for but at least we have the dignity of paying for everything ourselves and showing our children the right way in life.

We might be mugs for doing so, but at least we pay our own way, are not scrounging every penny, sitting around the house moaning. What we buy we buy with our own money, not some government handout, then again we don't waste money in the pub, on ciggies or down the bookies, only the jobless can afford that!

Perhaps this dignity, this work ethic that "Johnny Foreigner" has should be adopted by Scotland. In fact I welcome anyone who works to pay their own way rather than expect handouts at every turn. Xenophobic nonsense might annoy the pc brigade and certain no economy should be based on immigrants working for crappy wages. This country is a complete mess, the taxes and cost of living are horrendous, are you sure they want to come here?

60

E Channon,

Edinburgh 02/01/2007 22:59:05

As I've been saying for over 10 years, this EU system will bite Britain and the rest of Europe in the arse. Why, all its doing is taking jobs away from natives of their countries, and giving them to cheap labor. Making it more expensive to do business, live and travel. I remember traveling in Italy where my £ went farther, now.... Though yes, everyone has the right to work and live, but not the right to steal jobs from people. Example: My wife, she's American, working on her PHD, but lost her right to work here. Why, becasue the Home Office believes that there are enough American's working here. Interesting! Degree, language, does the work, whats the problem? European Union!

61

1234567CalScot,

CA 02/01/2007 23:14:46

It seems that anyone except an adult son of a born and bred Scotswoman can enter and work in the UK.

When I tried to get my 22 year old son what I thought was his birth right, his right to come to the UK to live and work, I was told that despite my UK citizenship, I could not get permission for him to get UK citizenship because--wait for this one--he could only get it if his father were British; he is a Scot, but I was stunned to learn that a mother doesn't count. You know what 'they' say: "It's a wise child that knows his own father." or, maybe, it's a wise father that knows his own child....

I'm an American educated teacher--summa cum laudae from a top university--yet I can't teach in the UK. However, any fly-by-night teacher from, for example, Bulgaria, can be hired as a teacher.

Do the powers that be realise how nonsensical it is to deny a highly qualified, native English speaking teacher employment, yet hire a less well qualified EU immigrant who has nothing in common with his or her students?

Ah well, from what I hear about British schools they have as many, or more, problem students as the US, so it might be as well that I couldn't get a job as a teacher in Scotland. Plus the dollar is now worth t.p., so I can no longer buy much of a house in the UK.

62

Cathie Christie,

Arroyo Grande, California 02/01/2007 23:33:28

Thank you for the info #54 Sambo the deep south....glad to hear it. I would be a successful returnee..no handouts for me...I have gotten disgusted with some of my ain folk. visiting them in the past with all their complaints, but having their nights out at the pub and money for the pools.
Thank you too Alec #60, I did have also a British passport as well as my US passport, but have let it expire...will send to the British Embassy in Washington DC for a renewal.
Treat yourself and get your passport, I have travelled all over the world and glad I have one. You only live once.
Good Luck

63

Cathie Christie,

Arroyo Grande, California 02/01/2007 23:41:21

to #64, 1234567CalScot,CA...
Interesting you brought up the subject of your son, inquiring about UK citizenship.my son age 45, lives and works in Berlin, has been since serving there in the US Air Force. He was hired as a qualified air traffic controller because of his experience in his field. He was asking just about that same question. My husband and I both were born in Scotland, now US citizens...so that would qualify, right?
Also a quick note about my application originally for my British Passport, I had to get the permission of my husband on the application. Can you believe that?

64

Robbie,

02/01/2007 23:54:08

64. 1234567CalScot, CA
It seems that anyone except an adult son of a born and bred Scotswoman can enter and work in the UK.
You are right this was the rule and most ‘sexist’ but it has been changed and now one can claim ‘Citizenship by Descent’ from father or mother. However it was not made completely retrospective as there was a cut-off year.

65

tyson,

Annapolis, Maryland 03/01/2007 00:30:38

In the U.S. I continually meet serious business types who claim that immigration, much of it illegal, has little or no impact on wages. Given the law of supply and demand, this is errant nonsense, as an unrestricted supply of cheap labour will serve to depress wages, particularly those of the very poorest members of society. I have had several executives even make the claim that somehow (magic?) this aspect of the economy is immune from the invisible hand of the market.

66

American,

usa 03/01/2007 01:25:50

We are having a growing problem with illegal immigrants! It is NOT only big business that is hiring, but also small business.

Identity theft is occurring, our lower class is growing, hospitals are going out of business because they have to provide free healthcare, our schools are being taught in spanish language while our taxes pay for this, they get help from welfare & on & on-meanwhile they protest for the right to vote while flying the American flag upside down and waving a flag of some mexican communist.

Hiring them saves businesses taxes - especially social security tax. Our politicians (mostly democrats) say nothing because they want the votes.

Press 1 for Spanish, Press 2 for English

If you need immigrants that bad, please take ours (especially the ones who've been here for years and still can't speak english).

67

1234567CalScot,

CA 03/01/2007 01:46:24

66 Cathie (67 Robbie.) Cathie, I can believe it! When my son was born, I needed my huband's permission to take my baby out of the country to visit relatives--my husband did not need my permission.
67 Robbie. Want to bet I'm (my son) is on the wrong side of the cut off period? Thank you for the info. though. I'll check it out.

PS. My Scottish friends think I'm nuts to even consider leaving sunny California--but they're not living with our type of uncertainty for the future.

68

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 01:54:02

I fail to see the relevance of the American thread of this discussion board. What have Americans got in common with Europe? The answer is very little.

The European Union is about the union of European countries, working together for common good. Like it or not, the British people should accept that the benefits outweigh the costs of this policy of expansion. It would be stupid not to have the Eastern Europeans within the EU as to isolate them will only destablise the region in the longer term.

Do not listen to the crap that the Americans are spouting on here about problems with illegal immigrants. America is a great country but it has little if anything in common with the UK; some in the business world would say that they do not even speak the same language.

The fact of the matter is that the UK needs a strong Europe and Scotland needs a skilled immigrant workforce. This is a good thing for Scotland. The ironic thing is that it will be a fascist Scot in the UK government who stops Scotland from tapping into what is a valuable resource.

Why do you let your politicians and media owners pollute your country with xenophobic views? Sure, immigration must be controlled (and these people are not immigrants like the Yanks. They are European citizens), but do try to be adult in your discussions about how to do it.

If you allow your politicians to keep up this garbage about the threat to UK soil and jobs then surely the right thing to do is to give up your own right to free movement and go back to the days of applying for a visa and work permit every time you want to holiday or work in Europe.

Do you think it is the British obsession with having its cake and eating it that is giving you this obesity problem?

69

1234567CalScot,

CA 03/01/2007 01:57:06

#69 You are so right. I teach a Spanish high school population that adamantly will not work at learning English. One mother even gave me a "Learn to Speak Spanish" book!

These students complain that California's high school exit exam is unfair/too difficult to pass. Hmm. I wonder why an exam that is pitifully easy is so difficult for immigrants who were born here, or have had 8-12 years of school here? Could it be that parents don't encourage English speaking? Could it be that the students talk non-stop in Spanish--even during English classes?

Of course, we teachers dare not object--that would be disrespectful of the student's culture. Apparently, the American culture is not worth respecting--only our welfare system.

70

Jiimpoo,

Tallinn 03/01/2007 02:17:53
71

American,

usa 03/01/2007 02:18:20

#72 - I was under the impression that teachers were for illegal immigrants & against any kind of immigration enforcement. Didn't teachers in CA protest along with their students? Do you also have problems with gangs in school? Does the school districts want teachers to start learning spanish (I thought I heard that last year about the teachers in Arizona)?


#71 - Mr. Thai Land - no disrespect to you sir, but since you don't live here, you have no idea how bad it is getting. I have absolutely NO problem with hard-working, law abiding immigrants who accept our way of life and LAWS.

The problems we are having here is numerous Latin gangs popping up & spreading, welfare benefits being given, Identity Theft (illegal immigrants using others social security numbers, which is causing the victim big problems when it comes to income taxes). Would you like more examples?

72

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 02:19:20

#72 "immigrants who were born here". Maybe you need to go back to College yourself. If they were born in the USA then they are not immigrants, they are Americans.

Yet again some more irrelevant xenophobic rants from the US. Presumably these discussion boards are not moderated? I have no problem with you spouting your views, but again I would say that this Article is about Europeans welcoming other Europeans into their country.

It has got absolutely nothing to do with the American education system or your intolernace of hisapnics.

Here in Bangkok we have lots of American immigrants, a significant percentage of whom are what decent people commonly refer to as sex tourist. You see them advertise on discussion boards for young girls, and boys, to perform sex acts on them for less than $30USD. But I guess that is the Americans trying to respect our culture and not just our welfare system.

You see, we can all start to write about our bad experience of immigrants who do not know how to conduct themselves when they come to live in another country for a better lifestyle. But my point about the Americans in Thailand has got nothing to do with Romanians and Bulgarians in the UK, just like your comments are irrelevant and inappropriate too.

Oh, and for what it is worth, I have worked in Madrid and found the Spanish people to be amongst the nicest of all of the people that I met in Europe. The worst were people from the South East of England who, generally speaking, come across as truly obnoxious. I pity any Romanians who are daft enought to head in that direction!!!

73

Andromeda,

Canada 03/01/2007 02:23:44

To #64 and others who enquired about living in GB.

If your son/daughter does not qualify because their father was not born in the UK, enquire into a "Right to Abode." You'll probably find the info on the Web.

Also, I agree with the writers who complained about being unable to get work in GB. I was born in Scotland and left in my late teens for Canada. I attended university in Canada and qualified as a teacher. When I applied for work in Scotland I was told they "preferred locally trained teachers."

74

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 02:26:24

#74 I appreciate that America might have a problem with immigrants but I say again, that America has very little in common with Europe and to try to correlate between the US and Europe is silly.

The Romanians and Bulgarians are not immigrants to the UK. They are European citizens who are exercising their right to free movement within the EU, the same as the Scots, English and Welsh do.

Even the UK government recognises that the movement of EU citizens, be they British, French or Romanian is not the same as immigration from foreigners such as Thais and Americans.

We have two completely separate discussion threads going here.

I do not object to the people in the US airing their views on their immigration problems but in this instance, they are irrelevant to the article that was published by the Scotsman. They should be aired somewhere else.

75

Andromeda,

Canada 03/01/2007 02:56:32

To #77
I am not so sure that there are 2 different threads going on here. Seemingly, many people want to maintain the status quo while enjoying the freedoms they would deny others. So, Americans would like to have the right to live/work in GB while curtailing the influx of Hispanics to the US.

I do agree though, that it is quite irritating when immigrants arrive and enjoy the benefits of the social welfare system (in whatever country) while not assimilating. Actually, they do themselves a disservice by remaining "outsiders" however long they are in their chosen country.

76

American,

usa 03/01/2007 02:59:26

#77- I guess I am mistaken. I always considered Europe to be a place with different countries with different cultures & languages & govts & borders. I don't know how to explain this without sounding ignorant-but I consider someone who is governed by Chirac to be from France & to be french. I know they're European, but french. Am I making myself understood?

Canada has canadians, America has americans, Mexico has mexicans - but we are not considered North Americans and need passports to go to neighboring countries.

77

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 03:19:17

#79 If you go to http://europa.eu/ then you will find a wealth of material that will help you geton the road to understanding Europe. But there is over 50 years of records there so will take you a while.

I dread to think what some people will think through. The website is available in 20 different languages so that all of the EU citizens can read and understand it. Perhaps people in Britain should insist that the rest all go to school and learn the official language of the EU, which is English after all.

Also worth checking out is the British Governments immigration department web site as they are quite good at explaining the difference between an EU member state and non-EU member states. Their website is www.ind.homeofice.gov.uk

If it is OK with you, I would rather stick with what the members of the EU tell me about their constitution for the time being. Nice try though!

#78 I totally agree that immigrants should try to integrate with the local culture and laws and that is something I have always tried to do. I find it sad when people do not do this and do not understand why they would want to exist within some sort of "expat ghetto". But that is how it is just about everywhere. Within Bangkok, we have a Chinatown as well as the Japanese congregating in Thong Lor, the Americans and Europeans in Sukhumvit and the sex tourists in Silom.

78

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 03:23:42

Sorry. My English is not too good. The Immigration Department website is

www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk

79

American,

usa 03/01/2007 03:35:00

#80 - Mr. Thai Land, Thanks. I will check out the websites. Maybe I can see what the advantages of one EU are. I'm sure it's good for some, but not for all. Unfortunately, govts. always make their point seem good & right, but I do wonder what the citizens think. I will keep an open mind while on the site.

80

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 03:44:44

#79 As for the passport issue, you DO NOT need a passport to travel around the EU member states, IF you are a EU citizen. You do need an identity card.

The exception to this is EU citizens in the UK, who do not have a universal ID card. They use a passport as a subtitute for an ID card.

But a French person, led by President Chirac, can turn up at Heathrow airport, show their ID card, and pass through the customs point without being stopped. Because, they are an EU citizen. They have free movement in the EU. If you travel to EU countries you will see that they have three entry points:

- one for EU citizens
- one for foreigners who have nothing to declare
- one for foreigners and EU citizens who have something to declare

British people have to have a passport ONLY because they have no ID card. If Britain did have an ID card then passports would be unnecessary for those who did not want to travel outwith the EU member states.

81

American,

usa 03/01/2007 03:57:22

#83 - Do you think one EU will eventually backfire? What I mean is, do you think people from one country will bombard another country? What if those who burned Paris decide to go to the UK & they aren't happy there either & start claiming discrimination? I've heard that some islamic clerics want to bring shiari courts into the UK and have their own court system. I guess I will have to do my research because right now I can only think that too much of a "melting pot" can backfire.

Have to go now, but it's been nice conversing with you.

82

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 04:52:44

There is no evidence that I have seen that suggests that people are moving in great swathes from one country to another in the EU.

There are lots of problems with integration of immigrants no matter what country you look at in the world. The issue is about how strong the people are in protecting their own culture and values. You should not deny other people the right to maintain theirs but equally, you must not allow them to trample over your own.

In Thailand we celebrate New Year on three separate occasions:

- in January for the Western New Year;
- in February for the Chinese New Year; and
- in April for the Thai New Year.

It works very well and we enjoy all three occasions. But this is Thailand and Thai traditions and Thai beliefs take precedence over others. Yes, we want to be part of the global economy and global world, but Thai people guard their culture and traditions well. We have problems, just like everywhere else (too many McDonalds lol) but I think that we are pretty good at ring fencing certain things and saying "do not touch". Most of the comments on this board imply that America is not good at doing this. This is probably because business pursuit of the dollar dictates the agenda?

Much of the discussion on here seems to be about governments and people failing to ring fence things. In those circumstances, there will indeed likely be a backlash one day. But in the UK that backlash is looking like it will be against Muslims, not fellow Europeans. The intolerance of Eastern Europeans in the UK is whipped up by the media as opposed to any hard facts of wrong doing in their part.

If you read back copies of the Scotsman and others, it talked of disaster looming via an invasion of Polish, Latvian and Estonian people a few years back. It never happened. In reality, these people are working in hotels for very poor money, getting treated very badly. They live in poor quality housing,

83

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 04:57:11

Oooops! Re my post at #85:

Of course, most Muslims in the UK are "fellow Europeans" for the British. I was meaning that the backlash in the UK is likely going to be against a religious faith, not a race.

84

1234567CalScot,

CA 03/01/2007 05:58:16

#74 American. There are many teachers who do not endorse liberal immigrant policies. The thing is, we don't dare say so because we would be seen as not PC--and that would be death to our puny careers. I, for one, did not protest along with my students.

Yes, we do have significant gang problems; so much so that the local police come to school staff meetings to tell us of the latest gangs and their insignia, colors, etc. Of course, by now we are all very familiar with the red vs blue, norteno vs sorreno gangs. Then there are the feuds between Asians and Blacks, Hispanics and Blacks, Asians and Hispanics. Oh, I almost forgot the on campus drug dealing and use.

As for theft--if it's not nailed down, it's gone.
And, the kids openly brag about how their families work the welfare system. One new immigrant even complained that she had to wait half an hour in the welfare office for a Spanish interpreter. She demanded to know why we did not hire more Spanish speakers.

With regard to learning Spanish, our local schools advertise for staff: "bilingual preferred." Do you sense a hint of racial bias there? If I thought learning Spanish would help my career, I might do it. However, having heard our Hispanic administrators sneer at the Spanish my colleagues (who have spent years diligently learning and speaking the Spanish language) speak, I know that learning Spanish is a waste of time. Incidentally, I am bilingual, but not in Spanish or Vietnamese. Stupid me--but what else can you expect of a teacher?

Sad to say, I fear that in California the recent immigrant population which is determined not to become truly American, is prevailing courtesy of the politicos who see either cheap labor, or votes.

85

Royster,

03/01/2007 05:58:55

Alec in Chicago #3 and #4. I agree it would make more sense to have free movement of labour throughout the English-speaking world. However, if Americans can work in the UK then UK citizens should be allowed to work in the USA. By the way, if any of your grandparents were born in the UK, then you should be able to work in the UK or any of the EU and EEA states. Check with your nearest UK consulate. Scottish independence is irrelevant to your case.

86

socialmedic,

usa 03/01/2007 06:21:37

#9, Bill, the problem is that it shouldn't be news. The world supposedly underwent a huge social reform movement that lasted from the late 1700's in England until roughly the time that Ronald Reagan and his neo-cons manipulated the American public into voting for a Reagan victory in the early 80's. A wholly unjustified worldwide conservative turn followed, internationalism took a back seat to the fascism of global industrialist cost cutters. The fact is that we as the west are supposed know better. My family founded a city in America in the company of about 60 slaves. It is no surprise to most of us that change was forced on USA and Brazil and other parts of the slave trading world largely by Britain and thier slave ship police. It is enough to think of a Burberry move to slave wage operations in China, unthinkable, but clearly, Britain as well as America is succombing to the corrupt, dishonest, and greedy machinations of Asian businessmen; Greed is a drug that they just can't say no to. Frankly, with the immigrants coming and the jobs all going to China sociological and economic destitution in the West is inevitable. It only spells utter disaster.

87

Royster,

03/01/2007 06:51:55

#52 Cathy. As long as your parents were legally settled in the UK, you can live and work in the UK because you were born there and are therefore British. Take your birth certificate to the nearest UK consulate or if you have lost it, the staff there will help you get a replacement. The fact that you have acquired US citizenship does not mean you have renounced UK citizenship and even if you did renounce it, you can ask for it back. British citizens and US citizens can have dual nationality. I don't think this used to be the case in the US but it was changed to allow Americans to take up Israeli citizenship. I used to work for a US company in London and a lot of the staff there were of Irish-American ancestry and were using Irish passports (Ireland is in the European Union) to work in the UK. When you have your British passport, you can then live and work in any of the 27 European Union countries plus the 4 European Economic Area countries namely Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland).

88

Royster,

03/01/2007 07:01:09

Calscot # 64. I think the law may have changed now. Could you give us some more background? Were you or the boy's mother born in the UK? When was he born? Are you, or have you ever been, married to the boy's mother? The UK government used to discriminate between men and women on UK passports. It now only discriminates against illegimate children whose father is British and mother is foreign.

89

socialmedic,

usa 03/01/2007 07:10:27

A country is like a collective house, owned by its residents. if visitors thought of it more like somebody's house would they barge in the front door and start making demands of the owners or would they respect the rights of the owners to the property and the rules and customs that that they have long established within? If it were your house, how would you feel, if after several generations of generating and inheriting laguage, culture and laws for the betterment of your home some guy from some overpopulated poor country just decides to move right into your living room, have ten children, eat all of your food, take all of your work and demand you speak his language and do things his way? Last we checked here in the WEST this was the post-colonial era but it is rather aparant to us in the WEST that migrants have not gotten the message though they surely seem to know what western imperialism means. The same shoe completely evaporates when they wear it! internationalism is the mutual respect for national borders and a concert of free, self determining nations operating as harmoniously side by side as they can. GLOBALISM, on the other-hand is fascist imperalism world-wide which is why the residents of the WEST have learned to become distrusting of such ungracious visitors. In so far as I can tell, certain CULTURAL distinctions between EASTERN and WESTERN Europe are still maintained. There is no logic that states that if a country becomes a part of a union that its residents MUST migrate elsewhere - what ever happened to national self-determination? What nations can self-determine if its residents run away rather than face and deal with the problems at hand? As I recall, the USA did not become independent by its founders crossing the ocean to shine shoes on London streets for a substandard wage! On the other hand it is disconcerting that in spite of German ancestry, British mother and Scottish grandfather my chances of acceptance to do business in Eu

90

Royster,

03/01/2007 07:29:18

Calscot#64. I have just checked the UK Government web-site. If your son was born outside the UK on, or after, January 1st 1983 he can claim British citizenship provided that one of his parents is a 'British Citizen otherwise than by descent' (for example by birth, adoption registration or naturalisation in the UK). The child will then be a 'British Citizen by descent' which is essentially the same but he would find it less easy to pass on British citizenshipo to his children unless he maintained some connection with the UK. Women have been able to pass on citizenship to their children since 1 January 1983 (this was not the case before January 1 1983). If your son is now 22 years old, he should qualify.

91

Alec in Chicago,

03/01/2007 07:46:57

# 88 Royster

No such luck!

My Scottish forebears apparently came here at least four generations ago.

I don't know much more than that - I was separated from my father's family when he wandered off when I was just a kid.

Posted a question after an article about Scottish independence, and asked whether the readers would favor a more liberal view, generationally speaking, when deciding who would or would not be entitled to a Scottish passport.

92

Mr Thai Land,

Bangkok 03/01/2007 07:57:16

Can someone please explain the logic behind this assumption that Americans should have a right to reside or trade with the British or other EU countries?

I can understand that if someone was born in the UK or had British parents then they would expect a right to reside there. But as for the rest?

Is the general thrust of the argument that white English speaking people should stick together? How quaint. How Ku Klux Klanish.

Is this just because the US thinks it can see the writing on the wall as far as the Chinese and Indian economies and the impact that it will have on them and others is concerned ?

Is it a case that it is OK for them to abuse and bully their trading "partners" for the last 50 years but now that the boot is on the other foot, they are worried about how that will feel when the Indians and Chinese do it to them?

It is somewhat ironic that it is the residents of the world's most protectionist country that are now crying about spilt milk. I think that the Chinese should invade them now as they have WMDs and god knows what they will do when the s*** hits the fans. Or even worse, what if some hispanic who cannot speak English gets into the Whitehouse. We are all doomed....

America is the dominant economic power just now, whilst it used to be the British, Spanish and other European countries. It is now approaching the turn of the Chinese and the Indians. So what? From the perspective of us small countries it is a case of "same s***, different backside". Live with it. That is what we have always had to do. A strong body of EU states will help you Europeans to minimise the pain. Make your politicians to get it to work!

Now, is anyone going to get back to the story in the paper, i.e. the expansion of the EU member states?

93

Alec in Chicago,

03/01/2007 08:54:18

# 95 Mr Thai Land

First an obvious correction: it is, to say the least, extremely unlikely that someone who cannot speak English would become president. The US Constitution demands that a president be a citizen by birth.

I am asking about living in Scotland specifically - not the UK in general. To deny the obvious links, cultural, linguistic, historic, is absurd. Our ties are deep, and they go back a lot farther than the EU.

I do not seek a better economic future in Scotland; my prospects here would be at least as good as my prospects in Scotland. Don't make up motives for other people, and then make comments as though your fantasies were true.

Our posts are relevant. If borders are open to EU members, how about to us? The article says that the population is falling. We could fill a lot of 'vacancies'. Those posting here seem to be educated; we already speak English; we have a basic familiarity with the culture; we share the same basic values.

It's not terribly difficult to qualify for admission to the US, (although the wait can be tedious), but it's not nearly as simple to emigrate from the US.

If you don't like the direction of this thread, perhaps you would feel more comfortable elsewhere. You are a guest here as much as we.

If the Scots don't like the direction that this is heading, well, then that is their right; and they should say so. This is their 'home turf' - and it is not for you to make demands.

If you have a problem with my government, write a letter to someone in Washington, but don't lay it on me. You have no idea who I am or what my background is. Know this, I am not my government. Perhaps you should take your America-bashing elsewhere; that is what is utterly irrelevant here.

94

wattie>x 1,

03/01/2007 17:04:05

There was never any intention of *God* when creating planet earth in such a short space of time to furbish it with decent human beings.
He (or she) did find time when not too busy in making such, to make sure we were various shades of colours; communicated with different grunts and groans; we were different sizes; some huge; some tiny; some ugly; some pretty; some fat and stout; some thin and skinny;some with a *tiny brain*; some with a brain little more than tiny; and some with no brain at all; and after all those millions of years ago; in the year 2007 we still don't know how we got here?

95

Susan Caroline Periano,

Topsham, UK 03/01/2007 17:40:21

Studying history and ancient history in the UK as an American has enlightened my view regarding national origins. There are none. We are all a combination of peoples. The ancient cultures readily accepted peoples of any colour or background, as long as they were peaceful. They even extended a universal custom of 'guest gift-giving' and shared willingly all of their possessions. How can we as a people, 2000 years later be so stingy? Let's all work on being kinder to one another. That's a sure way of breaking down barriers. Happy New Year!

96

tyson,

annapolis, maryland 03/01/2007 19:14:37

Mr. Thailand - For a citizen of the "global village", you seem to be very concerned that some of the writers to this site are Americans. Many folks in the U.S. are interested in Scotland and the Scots because of an ethnic connection. Others value Scottish culture. Still others have business interests. The EU is a very recent construct. Can it survive? Who knows? A similar economic union that would include Mexico, The U.S. and Canada is occasionally championed in some circles. As you might imagine, I find that idea an anathema. I've never been to Thailand, but have a good opinion of the Thais I have met. The sex tourism you reference is to the shame of both the buyers and sellers. Thailand has other problems as well, in particular, militant Islam, an unstable military dictatorship, etc. Good luck to you Sir in helping to solve them. I will continue to post to this site if only to aggravate you.

97

Alec in Chicago,

03/01/2007 22:19:46

# 99
tyson

Hear, hear!

98

American,

usa 03/01/2007 23:48:19

#87- CalScot - Politcal correctness is going to be the ruins of this country (along with the liberal media & politicians).
Actually, I think the illegal immigrant situation is a lost cause. Our politicians, small businesses, big businesses, landlords & welfare workers have let it go too far. I honestly think there is nothing we can do (except go broke, especially when they start receiving their social security checks & start bringing over all their family members).
BTW- Did you happen to see the signs they were carrying during all the protests? Of course, the media did not show the offensive ones.


 

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