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Call for 'Britain Day' to boost patriotism

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Published Date: 06 June 2007
MINISTERS have called for a national "Britain Day" in an attempt to boost patriotism, while admitting that English identity needed to be revived.
Ruth Kelly, the Communities Secretary, and Liam Byrne, the immigration minister, said in a pamphlet on Britishness that bolstering English identity should also be a "priority".

Their proposal echoes the calls from Gordon Brown to celebrate common
British values and the Union.

But Alex Salmond, the First Minister, criticised the idea during a Cabinet meeting yesterday, telling ministers the proposal appeared vague.

And he reiterated his call for St Andrew's Day to be a public holiday north of the border to herald the start of a "winter festival".

This would offer season-long "opportunities to make Scotland the premier tourist destination", a spokesman for Mr Salmond said.

The pamphlet by Mrs Kelly and Mr Byrne - written for the Fabian Society, a Labour-affiliated think-tank - also floated the idea of greater devolution for England.

"A parliament in Scotland and assembly in Wales and Northern Ireland shine a light on how England remains comparatively centralised," it said. "The reforms currently going through parliament free-up local government and empower local leaders. But they should be the beginning, not the end of England's devolutionary journey."

Reviving local civic governance and identity within England should be one of the government's priorities in the coming decade, it added.

But Mrs Kelly and Mr Byrne stopped far short of advocating the dissolution of the Union in the pamphlet.

"Our task in Britain, in the coming decade, is not to plan a separation," they said. "Nor can it be about assimilation into a mono-culture. Instead we must develop a meaningful sense of what we all - whatever faith, ethnicity and wherever in Britain we are from - hold in common."

They warned that there was no clamour to break up the United Kingdom. "There seems to be little real appetite for independence in either Wales or Scotland; support for independence has not shifted since devolution."

The ministers' proposals also include a system of "earned citizenship", making it easier for migrants to settle if they have carried out community service, as well as cash top-ups linked to the Child Trust Fund or reduced tuition fees for those who are "good citizens".

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, also entered the Britishness debate, telling Muslim scholars that the UK should take a leaf out of America's book when it came to teaching citizens "what it means to be American".

Mr Cameron called for history to be taught in a way that celebrated Britain's positive achievements, both at home and abroad.

And he said it was essential new immigrants learned English so they could communicate with the rest of society.

Polls show that most Scots consider themselves Scottish rather than British, and only half of English think of themselves primarily as Britons.

SENSE OF IDENTITY


MARK HORTON, presenter of BBC series Coast: "I think the idea of a day when we celebrate community and get involved in community projects is excellent. But it seems people want to mix it up with some notion of Britishness as a sense of identity, and to me it has all the hallmarks of a political bandwagon in which people are trying to find a term that defines multiculturalism. But the very term itself, 'Britishness' - with all the unpleasant undercurrents it can have - could be seen as excluding the Scots, the Welsh, even the Cornish. Until there's a public acceptance of what British identity is, any notion of a day to celebrate it seems strange."

DEVELOP DIVERSITY


ALI JARVIS, Director, CRE Scotland, said: "We would embrace efforts to bring people from different communities together. Shared understanding and familiarity are the first steps to developing collaborative approaches to common concerns that will deliver real changes in local neighbourhoods.

"Opportunities to reflect on and value society's diversity should be seized with both hands as a proactive way to build communities.

"[But] there is a danger in getting fixated on a notional one-off day ... at the expense of the real challenge of harnessing local, national and GB-wide benefits of stronger community links."

'DESPERATE GIMMICK'


CLIVE FAIRWEATHER, former chief inspector of prisons in Scotland, said: "There are quite enough public holidays already and other things to celebrate. I am in favour of the Union and all it stands for, but to be quite honest I think this is nothing short of a desperate gimmick by the government. Every day in this country is Britain Day, but the concept of marking it annually is a very un-British thing to do.

"We do have a more diverse population in the country these days and perhaps more attention needs to be paid to that, but not this plan. I cannot even think of anything meaningful and appropriate to do on such a day. To be honest, my mind boggles at such a ridiculous proposal."

SCOTS STAND APART


PETE WISHART, SNP MP, said: "Most Scots have dispensed with any notion of being British and are happy to be described exclusively as Scots. Somehow I just can't see the Scottish public reaching for their Union Jacks to cheer on the Chancellor on Britishness Day."

DAVID MUNDELL, the Shadow Scottish Secretary, said: "I find the whole thing ridiculous given that Gordon Brown and the Labour government failed to bring forward any celebrations for the anniversary of the Act of Union earlier this year. That was effectively the creation of Britain and we should have celebrated that."

'STILL IN DENIAL'


SIR ANDREW GREEN, chairman of Migrationwatch, which campaigns against mass immigration, said: "The government are at last realising there are serious consequences to the mass immigration that they have permitted, indeed encouraged.

"Some of these ideas will help, but they come after 10 years of the government turning a blind eye to immigration running at enough to fill a dozen double-decker buses every day - nearly 600 people.

"The first task is to get the number of immigrants down to manageable proportions. The government is still in denial about the need for really effective action on this front."

PATRON SAINTS' DAYS


SIMON BENNETT, campaigns director for the England First political party: "This is just another gimmick from the government. It disregards that there should be a separate day for each of our nations, celebrating the patron saints.

"This is no solution to religious extremism. People have strong views and a British Day imposed on them by the government would not erode these. We have a government on its knees ... this sort of thing smacks of desperation.

"Our migration policy should be more restrictive to begin with. Migrants should want to learn about Britain anyway; they should not be offered some sort of reward for that."



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1

,

06/06/2007 00:21:54
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2

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 00:27:31

They have to having a laugh :)

3

,

06/06/2007 00:30:06
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4

The Strategist,

06/06/2007 00:31:36

The cheek of this confounded woman.

NewLabour have been completely unpatriotic. Not only have they sat back and done nothing whilst other countries picked off the best bits of what little is left of UK industry but they consistently awarded high value It contracts to overseas contractors and other suppliers. They even sold off our Defence Research Agency to a US private equity company..

How dare she suggest the rest of us should be more patriotic when she and her colleagues have acted like industrial traitors!

5

Statsman,

06/06/2007 00:41:22

What is British? Does that mean having to pretend I hate the Scotland footie team like Herr Brown does?

"I cream myself when England score" - Brown

"I needed to beat the bishop when Beckham scored" - Brown

"Gaza's goal against Scotland was class. That's my Britain" - Brown

Brown-noser can GTF.

6

I'm no really here,

06/06/2007 00:51:25

Excuse me #1, but the "Britain Day" appears to be about ENGLISH Nationalism, not British Nationalism.

As you say Scottish Nationalism is bad, but English Nationalism needs to be "bolstered" and become a "priority".

7

N Taylor,

Brighton, UK 06/06/2007 00:51:41

If Tolstoy was correct when he wrote 'Patriotism is slavery' what do we do about ministers that want to enslave us with religious levels of belief about the country we happened to be born into ? US Patriotism green-lit the illegal war in Iraq. Why would we want to pollute our children with such rubbish? The only possible reason you could be proud of coming from one country and not another is that your parents had sex there. Patriotism is slavery. Politicians who cite the need for Patriotism are dangerous fools.

8

Keren, It's time,

06/06/2007 00:53:38

Right I have given up this poetry nonsense - too much hard work apart from anything else!

Interesting to see the poll - 26% see themselves as more Scottish than British and 26% see themselves as Scottish not British - this means that 52% of the population see Britishness as a secondary thing IF AT ALL!

Independence is a coming and nothing less will do!

9

Keren, It's time,

06/06/2007 00:57:09

And another thing!

Now that we have a proper SNP Government - sack Ali Jarvis as head of the political correctness industry and get someone else in - she was the prat who last year told us all (whilst earning Scottish taxpayers money by the way!), that if we didn't support Ingurland during the World Cup we were apparently 'rascist'!

As they currently say down Ealing way about Charley the chav 'Get her out!!'

10

John M.,

06/06/2007 01:03:11

Ruth Kelly is an alleged member of Opus Dei born in Limavady in Northern Ireland. Funny how people like that who would be "Nationalist" in an Ulster context suddenly become ardently pro-Union once they are on the mainland.

11

buzzer,

06/06/2007 01:08:08

AM2 you can state all the statitistics you want but a straw poll in my office of over 20 people all stated they are Scottish not British when asked. They mostly link Britishness to Englishness which is something they are not.

12

Keren, It's time,

06/06/2007 01:17:04

Hmm very interesting...very interesting indeed!

Only thing is the REAL story of what the 'British' really think of us is in The Herald...

' Labour and Conservative MPs were last night accused of not coming to terms with the SNP administration in Scotland after a clash at Westminster.

As Richard Lochhead, Holyrood's Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs, prepared to meet Ben Bradshaw, the Fisheries Minister, in Whitehall today, a spat broke out in the Commons following the first meeting between Linda Fabiani, Scotland's new Europe Minister, and Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary.

Shortly after the Joint Ministerial Committee on Europe took place, chaired by Ms Beckett and attended by Ms Fabiani, Angus Robertson, the SNP leader at Westminster, raised the issue at Commons question-time and asked the Foreign Secretary which discussed matters would be taken forward. At this point, a Labour back bencher shouted: "Who cares?", to which MPs on both sides began laughing.

advertisementMr Robertson, the MP for Moray, later berated Labour and Conservative MPs, saying: "It is sadly unsurprising that Labour and Tory MPs, who both lost in the Scottish elections, have not come to terms with the new reality of an SNP government. Everybody who cares about getting a good deal for Scotland in Europe would be appalled by the behaviour of the Unionist MPs."

Ian Davidson, the Labour MP for Glasgow South West, hit back, saying: "The SNP are clearly intent on trying to draw as many arguments as possible between Scotland and Westminster and are constantly trying to magnify any disagreement even when few can be found. The sooner they participate in real debates rather than trying to foment dissent the better for Scotland."

Today, there is potential for more disagreement as Mr Lochhead is expected to raise with Mr Bradshaw the issue of him attending the top table at next week's European Fisheries Council in Luxembou

13

Keren, It's time,

06/06/2007 01:18:38

Story of Labour jeering covered in BBC prog and The Herald but not in The Scotsman - when are the Jonhnson press gonna get rid of the Uncle Toms they employ??

14

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 01:22:50

Real Scots will ignore this effort to gin-up the dying UK.

Celebrate a real holiday, and be inspired by the real patiots who shook off English oppression, on the 4th of July.

15

scottishsponger,

The world 06/06/2007 01:24:43

Patriotism is a disease! Why anyone wants to continue and bouy this noxious, xenophobic attitude is beyond me. By all means be proud of who you are, but what does the country you were born in, have to do with this? It is used by politicans and other leaders to incite hatred towards other cultures and peoples, to justify waging war against them. It is used as the burning catalyst, to spur those narrow-minded enough to beleive in it into fighting a war on behalf of money, land and power hungry politicians. Fighting, or indeed dying, for your country is one of the most ludicrous and pointless acts a person can engage in. Fighting and dying for a cause is an altogether more sensible reason, but why can't people just be proud to be a human of the world. Patriotism breeds an "us and them" attitude towards other nations. Being a man or woman of the world is a much more noble ambition and attribute. Judging right and wrong based on individual merit, not on the country you identify with, is the only way forward for societys.

16

ed.,

edinburgh 06/06/2007 01:27:45

What are the implications of a Britain day for the UK as a whole? If we are not using Britain in its political context (United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), is it the geographical concept of the British Isles - and if so, what is the reaction in Dublin?

17

,

06/06/2007 01:29:38
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18

Guga II,

Rockall 06/06/2007 01:32:21

We need a "British" day like we need a hole in the head.

I noticed on the BBC on Tuesday morning that, when they were talking about this "British" day, they were playing "Land of Hope and Gory". They, the English, still think of Britain as England.

I have yet to meet any Scots in this part of the country that consider themselves "British". They all consider themselves Scottish.

I know there are some Scots on the mainland that still suffer from a colonial mentality, probably from living in a mental colony, but the numbers are decreasing, slowly but surely. The sooner we free oursleves from English rule, the better.

Saor Alba.

19

gerad,

scotland again 06/06/2007 01:44:13

20#Guga II
We must know all the same people, and go to all the same places and think the same.............spooky

20

gerad,

scotland again 06/06/2007 01:46:32

#20 Guga II,
Thats why I dont post often. it's a wast of time you do it for me. Thanks mate.

21

Buchanan,

California 06/06/2007 02:25:12

"Britain wants UK break up, poll shows"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=JUJ...

I'm sure the unionist will find other polls/lists to support their argument about how proud the majority are to be British. I think I missed the massive celebration parties of the 300th anniversary of the glorious union.

England, Wales & Scotland all of have proud cultures that are worthy of celebration and should fully embrace their own national day like every other country does.

Being called British is something that I personally
regard as an insult. I feel zero affinity with British culture, whatever that is. To me it is no more than a synonym for English Culture and the majority of people I have met from other countries regard it as such also - just ask them to describe what
British means and nearly always it will be a description of English culture.

St Andrews Day - yes, St Georges Day - yes
St Davids Day - yes

Britain Day or as it was voted by the "British" people, "Magna Carta" day - I think not, what a nauseating idea.

22

The Maltese Falcon,

Malta 06/06/2007 02:30:09

The clueless Ruth Kelly has got it completely wrong again in suggesting that we should celebrate a "Britain Day". From an English perspective we need to celebrate a St. Georges Day in the same way that the Scots, Irish and Welsh celebrate their respective saint days. Since New Labour came to power in 1997, it seems that it is politically correct to be Scots, Irish, Welsh, Asian, Afro-caribbean or any other nationality that you can think of but to be English is seen as being politically incorrect. I agree that Scotland needs her independence but I truly believe that the English are also being suffocated by being in this wretched Union and need to be out of it as quickly as possible.

23

Willie Macleod,

Wick 06/06/2007 02:37:30

I reject all nationalism patriotism be it British or Scottish we must come together in Common Humanity, there is more that unites us than divides us.The Human experience with all its hopes and fears unites us all

24

gerad,

scotland again 06/06/2007 02:50:07

#25 The Maltese Falcon.
With you all the way.

25

Auckland Arab2,

06/06/2007 03:01:50

Scots, Welsh and Irish may not like it, but Britishness is going to reflect Englishness primarily as 90% of Britain is in fact England, well by population any way. And don't forget the other ethnic minorities who have to be pandered to in this multi-cultural utopia we live in.

Most sensible people see this for what it is - a two bit idea thought up on the hoof and it has no legs. Desparate times and desparate people (ie New Labour) come up with ever more ludicrous ideas. Even most people in England just wont see any value in this nonsense.

We do need a public holiday for St.Andrews day though. Maybe we can swap it for May Day, which does seem a little anacronistic in this day and age.

26

Brisbane Scot,

06/06/2007 04:17:57

AM2 aka the voice of the hootsman.

Now we all know that you pop your head up in the Herald and know that you highlight points of ancient history and love to brief us on articles supporting your claims.

Just one question, WHY did it take a fellow Scot to paste a copy of the article in the Herald about reaction to Scottish ministers attending JMC meeting and answer the Parliamentary Leader of the SNP with heckles of who cares and laughter from both sides of the house.

Not expecting recognition of the question as usual, but is that your idea of Unionism?. Is that the system you continually promote and defend?.

And yes I and many others feel bitter towards this other insult towards Scotlands People. Everytime one of you guys get on these forums and spout your fear tactics up pops your masters blowing you out of the water.

The Hootsman is expected to take the Anglo point of view, but how anybody on this forum can condone this sort of behaviour and treatment of elected officials of Scotland is as corrupt as the Westminster Political System. Shame on you all.

27

Royster,

06/06/2007 04:35:46

This is so un-British. No need for a Britain day. Utter cobblers - and I'm a unionist.

28

Name,

06/06/2007 04:41:10

I'm neither British nor Scottish. I'm from sunny Leith and that's that. SNP and Labour are both as bad as each other.

On the other hand if it means a public holiday, I'm all for British Day.

Now I'll let you misrable sods start shouting at each other again.

29

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 04:54:11

My apologies about my grammar in comment@2........i was still laughing at the time after reading the headline :)

30

BK,

Cyberspace 06/06/2007 05:10:40

Rith Kelly belongs to two organisations which do not allow members to think for themselves. One is New Labour, the other is the sinister and secretive reigios cult, Opus Dei. Which of these has done herthinking for her and odered her to spit this idea?

31

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 05:18:00

They'll start playing God ave th Queen again when cinemas shut again and we'll have to stand.

Bye bye Scotland, hello North Britain.

32

John S,

06/06/2007 05:21:30

Maybe the 23rd April St George's day (England's National day ?) could double up as "Britain Day"

33

S lomax,

warrington 06/06/2007 05:22:11

Here we have a government that has done all it can to destroy what THEY repeatedly tell us makes us special and that's our freedoms. They tell us the reason that the islamo-fascists want to come here to kill us is because of our democracy, something that a simple 10 minutes of reading the fatwa can totally discredit.(it's because we continuously occupy their countries, we also removed DEMOCRATICALLY elected mohamed mosedeq in 1953 because he had the cheek to nationalise the countries oil industry, removing brit/u.s oil company BP from control) But this government that now wants a day of patriotism are the ones who are ruining this country through the laws they have passed and those they hope to pass in the none to distant future. This labour government are the kind of people that an american president warned of when he said the following. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" - and those who would exploit our fear, for power, and for their own personal, selfish, cynical, gain."

That sums up this government and i will say that this proposed britain day merely will operate in a 2 minutes of hate-like orwellian holiday. Throw these criminals out.

34

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 05:22:29

BUT..... if we get an extra day off work oot of this scheme, we'll I'll even wave a wee union jack and sing God save the Queen : )

35

Roastie Toastie,

Scotland for Scotland 06/06/2007 05:32:50

I like many other of my countrymen consider myself to be Scottish. Not British, Not English, not more British than Scottish etc etc etc.

I was born in Scotland as my parents were, as thier parent were and so on. I am Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish and have no interest in Britain or anything British. Stick the Union Jack and anything connected to it.

My national day is St Andrew's day, its all I am interested in. If Its British, stick it, if its Scottish, love it, support it.

Give Westminister to the English and let them get on with it. Give us our country to do with as we see fit. If you eant to be British, go live in England, enough of the propoganda, we have had it for 300 years. No More. Its time to take accountability for our own affairs and be recognised as our own nation. Gordon Brown go take a hike.

36

Name,

06/06/2007 05:41:26

#39 While you're at it, kick all the English, Blacks and Asians oot of Scotland as well as you want to keep Scotland "Skottish".

The nonsense you talk is laughable. People like you do the nationalist cause more harm than good.

37

eric,

Lothian 06/06/2007 06:04:26

I was reading some English based papers.And most English who wrote in,Wanted British day on St Georges day ,hahaha.
In the 60s we were not told anything of Scottish history etc.Just that the Union flag was my flag and this old lady was my Queen,Now we know different,
I put being Scottish well above being British,
Its like admitting your English!

38

Nell,

Far from the Struan 06/06/2007 07:14:10

November 30th is a great time of year for a holiday.
When its dark and raining.
NOT!

39

Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 07:21:17

As usual, the English confuse Great Britain vis-a-vis England! Lachie Todd

40

Ubi,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 07:30:26

A nation floundering for survival. Health, immigration transport, taxation, education, welfare all on their knees. All waved away by a day off.

They might as well be on Mars for all the connection they have with real people and real lives.

41

camster,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 07:36:00

So who knows who St Andrew actually was?? He lived in Asia Minor and said good things in Syria 2000 years ago. This guy seems like a really good idea to take a holiday. I do not like either rabid Scottish or English nationalism both of it seems to say more about the small minds of its supporters than anything else. Why not a British day when we celebrate our military who appear to be the only true heros we have left.

42

donald,

weegieland 06/06/2007 07:42:10

Lenin once wrote of the difference between the nationalism of the oppressed and the nationalism of the oppressor.

Will the Lab Brit Nat Numpties ever learn?

43

eric,

Lothian 06/06/2007 07:43:01

St Andrew -Asia minor.St George -palastine
St Patrick -England

44

Roy,

06/06/2007 07:46:21

"Mr Cameron called for history to be taught in a way that celebrated Britain's positive achievements, both at home and abroad."

The job of history teachers is to teach students to objectively analyse and interpret all facets of historical evidence in order to give them a better understanding of the past.

Their role is not to pump biased propaganda for politicians. The day of Whig historians is, itself, history.

45

Kevin Williamson,

TheScottishPatient.com 06/06/2007 07:50:26

"There seems to be little real appetite for independence in either Wales or Scotland; support for independence has not shifted since devolution."
RUTH KELLY

Is that so?

This same newspaper ran an opinion poll just six months ago - on 1st Nov 2006 - which had those in favour of Scottish Independence at 51% and those against at 39%.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1615112006

All other polls up to 2007 consistently put support for Independence slightly ahead of the status quo. That ism up until the pro-unionist media launched a massive scare campaign full of lies and disinformation during the election campaign.

I suspect we wont be seeing any more opinion polls on Scottish Independence appearing in the Scotsman for quite a while, in case they contradict the media's manufactured consensus that the majority of Scots supposedly dont want independence.

46

Guthrie,

06/06/2007 07:50:54

OK everyone, how do you class yourselves?

I start as from Edinburgh, then a Scot, then British, European, and most widely, as a human.*

*although some might differ on that.

47

BK,

Cyberspace 06/06/2007 07:52:03

#48 Eric, what conection does a Dumbarton man who flitted to ireland with have with England?

48

toryheaven.blogspot.com,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 07:53:13

Anyone with a genuine sense of Britishness will be repelled at this sacharine, concocted idea to celebrate Britain. We already have enough days in the annual calendar to celebrate (or commemorate) genuine outpourings of British national identity: Trafalgar Day, the Queen's Birthday, Victoria Day, Commonwealth Day, Armistice Day, amongst others. Each of these solidifes national identity, and springs from genuinely important events in the national life. This New Labour idea to create a new faux public holiday is a mere piece of political spin designed to undermine nationalism.

49

Marco,

Liguria 06/06/2007 07:57:56

How about the 12th of July (or one of the other dates associated with the Glorious Revolution).

Celebrates freedom of speech and freedom of worship.

Was when parliamentary democracy was finally established in UK and thus England (+ Scotland + Ireland + Wales = United Kingdom) all have reasons to celebrate as well as most of the world.

50

Marco,

Liguria 06/06/2007 08:01:41

How about the 12th of July (or one of the other dates associated with the Glorious Revolution).

Celebrates freedom of speech and freedom of worship.

Was when parliamentary democracy was finally established in UK and thus England (+ Scotland + Ireland + Wales = United Kingdom), all, have reasons to celebrate as well as most of the world.

51

T. MacIntosh,

toronto 06/06/2007 08:02:34

There should be a Scotland Day.The English can look after themselves:).

52

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 08:04:42

This topic is difficult to debate. Both arguements are valid.

On the one hand we constantly hear people complaining how Britain is losing her identity. On the other, are the politicians simply playing with people'e emotions for their own gain?

Who knows!

53

Mikey,

06/06/2007 08:04:45

A military day? Why not go the whole hog and have a military government? What a joke!

To be honest, A Britain day has about as much chance of getting off the ground as a St Andrew's holiday. This 'Britain' thing is on its way out, whether you like it or not, and I, personally, will sing at its' demise.

It's time we became citizens of Scotland and not 'subjects' of England.

Saor Alba!

54

Cadgers,

Perth 06/06/2007 08:06:43

#43 Sounds good to me Nell, long lie in bed and the rest of the day with a book or computer!!

I am Scottish.

55

New Town Resident,

06/06/2007 08:11:57

-39. please bear in mind that its not just a question of everyone in Scotland having the same background as yourself, but just different perspectives on identity.

Rather i suspect the poll in am2 post 3 reflects the diverse background of Scotland's society. While like 39 I can trace back part of our familiy in Scotland 300 years, personally I was born in the Far East (in what was a "colony" run mainly by Scots!) and many of my family now live in England. That's a British indentity in my book.

Concerning all these cases for public holidays, can we please have something in the summer. Andrew, Patrick, George, they are all the same - it always wet and cold because because they are all the wrong time of the year.

Once the monarch's "official birthday" was a public holiday and set in June for the weather - but now its always on a Saturday (Trooping the Colour). Same with Remembrance Day being switched to a Sunday. Its got to be in June. Get the birthday back, or go for D-Day. (My dad was with the Lovat Scouts on that day.)

56

walter,

06/06/2007 08:17:43

Being British cannot be celebrated, no one knows what being British is any more.
When asked what makes a person British, Scottish, English or Welsh they will all give the same reasons.
People cannot distinguish between British/Scottish, British/English, British/Welsh.

57

Selgovae,

Scotland 06/06/2007 08:20:05

It should be September the 9th in memory of the birthday of the Roman Emperor Honorius who encouraged Britain to look after itself. Those were the days - no Angles, Saxons or Scots. Just Britons, Picts, Italians and some eastern European immigrants from Sarmatia.

58

Nell,

Far from the Struan 06/06/2007 08:26:31

No. 53:- Armistice day is not to celebrate being British, it is to remember and honour those who gave their lives in conflict (and not just British).

59

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 08:38:03

Being British is probably about growing up with a runny nose and playing football in the street. Its about fish and chips and skooshy drinks. Its about having a religious background but not necessarily having to comply with it as you age. Its about freedom of choice and expression. You will not be stoned to death or suppressed for your views no matter what. Its about football matches on a saturday. For others its cricket, rugby league or union. Its about Eastenders, Footballers wives, Top Gear and SKY Sports News. Not to mention the many other favourite British comedies and game shows. Its about the local pub and the saturday night on the town. Its about ballet to some and theater to others. There is diversity all around! Its about chicken tikka massala, a chinese meal or a pie and bovril at the match. Its about many things to many people, but if your not somebody who does at least 2 of the above mentioned then your probably living in Britain but hold other values dearer. Which is also permitted, afterall, in Britain there is no suppression of consciouness.

60

Tweedmouth,

06/06/2007 08:53:44

Being British is about having ancestors who defended these islands against invasion by successive Spanish, French, Dutch and German armies. The definition of a nation is a cohesive nation of people living within defined national boundaries who managed to defend their territory against enemies who would like to take over. The last two occasions when the British did this were 1914-18 and 1939-45. Those two wars cost this nation over 2 million dead - monuments to their sacrifice are all around you in graveyards, war memorials and the political freedoms you still - despite Bliar, enjoy.

But New Labour doesn't believe in all that anymore. They see themselves as a new United States with a rainbow nation of Somalis, Poles, Afghans, Pakistanis, Indians, Indonesians, Jamaicans and 26 members states of the EU. Sadly, the UK has less than 1% of the land area of the USA and is now the second most densely populated country in Europe - after Holland.

All this posturing over a 'British' day comes from a bunch of morons who just ruled that ANY new arrival in Britain has as much right to housing, education and health benefits as someone whose ancestors have lived here for 500 years, who fought and died to protect its freedoms. If every new global citizen has the same rights as an indigenous UK citizen - then we have no rights. Rights only exist in contrast to someone who does NOT enjoy those rights. You cant extend British citizenship to all 10,000,000,000 people in the world - and if you keep trying to do it you will destroy the rights of the 60 million who live here.

This government is doing everything possible to destroy the unity of the UK and to destroy the very British identity that has kept these islands prosperous and free for the last 200 years. Utter hypocrisy.

61

,

06/06/2007 09:03:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 685274, Article id was mapped to record!
62

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 09:04:42

I'm all for a 'British Day'!!!

It could be treated in the same way people celebrate Guy Fawkes night....but burning an effigy of the Monarch wrapped in the Union flag would be the main difference!!

How spectacular would that be!!!!

63

Fairfax,

06/06/2007 09:05:11

62: "Those were the days - no Angles, Saxons or Scots."

Some historians now suggest that there were already Germanic settlers in what was to become SE England before Roman annexation. Caesar even mentions Belgae in Britain in his Gallic Wars. There have even been philologists musing that some form of demotic German (i.e. an English precursor) existed much earlier in SE Britain than the post-Roman period, on similar grounds.

Still, if we're going to have non-British saints from the Roman Empire, why not surely the ultimate soldier saint: the Emperor Constantine, hailed as emperor at York in 306, seven years before he began to openly favour Christianity.

64

Sonnaidh,

Alba - Almost Saor 06/06/2007 09:10:07

David Mundell says we should have celebrated the 300th aniversary of the unjion - Well we did - we voted to end it!

65

Entres,

Scotland 06/06/2007 09:11:26

Any patriotism felt by British citizens, has been lost long ago,
Mr. Brown is asking a lot of the downtrodden British public, in seeking to restore a once proud nation.
Many of us do take pride, but in our own achievements in correctly voting for independence,
As for Mr. Brown, we don't want him, we don't need him, we have little or no respect him, he is a turncoat in the way he treats our first minister with contempt, why should we rejoice in him, his government, their achievements which have left all of us in some sort turmoil or other,
Patriotism says we are proud of Britain as was,
Britain has not been proud of Britain since the 1950's,
I say get real Mr.Brown.
Step out of your world and into ours.

66

Micropacer,

06/06/2007 09:18:58

I think people get way to hung up on this stuff and put far more importance in it that it deserves.

Im probably Scottish 1st British 2nd like most people. That doesnt mean im not British that just means im Scottish 1st. That poll suggests the Majority of Scots do still feel British which would fall in line with the impression I get.

Infact im probably a Highlander before all of that. If people on here think (as some appear to) that because we live North over a red line drawn between Scotland and England we have more in common then you are entirely wrong and living in some shortbread dreamland.

I have as much in common with someone from Newcastle as I do Glasgow. All this im Scottish, my grannie was Scottish etc etc amuses me as how and where helps make you are brought up makes you what you are.

I would probably vote for Independance should it be offered tommorrow but because I think it would improve Scotland and make it a better place and not because I think we as Scots have any more in common with each other than with anyone else.

67

mr chips,

06/06/2007 09:19:54

My 14 year old son came in from school with a form, on it asks what nationality he was, as there was no box to tick for scottish he scored out brittish and wrote in bold letters SCOTTISH.
Well done son I told him thats exactly what I would have done.

68

Trampezium,

06/06/2007 09:21:01

Great! Will it involve trams in some way?

69

Mike S,

06/06/2007 09:22:24

Britain day should be good to help assimilate certain Germano-Greek elite in the UK

70

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 09:23:48

3. AM2.

Sorry AM2 you need a reality check and your own figures and the quotes contradict your argument.

From the ICM figures.
86%, feel they are either mostly scottish or equal with over 50% expressing that they are more or fully scottish.

10% feel they are british. Hardly surprising when about 10% of the Scottish population are UK residents from other UK countries! If you exlude these 10% only 4% of Scots consider themselves more british.

Say it AM2 : 4% of Scots consider themselves to be british. Sounds about right.

71

Calum10,

06/06/2007 09:25:15

Britain Day = England day

72

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 09:26:26

Mr chips #74: Perhaps you should also advise your son to scratch out British on his passport and replace it with Scottish. Let us see how far he travels following such inappropriate, juvenille and utterly irresponsible behaviour. Whether you like it or not, you dear Sir are a Brit. As is your child............

73

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 09:29:13

David MacVicar,

You've blasted AM2 oot the water with that!!!

AM2 has committed political suicide....let's see him slither his way out of this!!!

74

Mark j,

Leith 06/06/2007 09:29:56

If it was supposed to be a day to increase patriotism and civic responsibility. It would be a citizens day not a day off for everyone. The central government and administrators work that day. All UK voting is done that day. The one day a year that the majority applicants take their oaths and become citizens.The day that the UK government and monarch celebrate the citizen as their employer. There are bank holidays that which many many people work, how is that right when folk in the UK work more days than many other EU countries. I'm still waiting for a St Andrew's day. At least i know what that day is and what being Scottish means to me.

75

Trampezium,

06/06/2007 09:30:42

It would be cynical to suggest that this has anything to do with Brown being a Scot and Salmond taking power in Scotland. It would be extra-cynical to suggest that this was a late attempt to hold the Union together.

76

Selgovae,

Scotland 06/06/2007 09:38:45

#70 Fairfax

Nice info. Also, at the time of the Roman Withdrawal (not to be confused with a form of contraception), there was evidence of a Scots presence, as evidenced by finds of ancient Mars bar wrappers. But that doesn't rule out Honorius. After all, he epitomises that great British sentiment, "When the going gets tough, those in charge head for the command bunker."

:-)

77

mr chips,

06/06/2007 09:41:29

79. Media 1/ My son decided to do like me and apply for an Irish passport WHICH WE BOTH QUALIFY FOR .We want nowt to do with the buchers apron.As for being inappropriate, juvenille and utterly irresponsible I think you need to calm down
you sad little person.

78

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 09:46:13

#84 Mr Chips: An Irish passport is great!

Perhaps then, you should have crossed out the British section and wrote IRISH!

79

mr chips,

06/06/2007 09:49:56

We live in and love scotland we are not ashamed of our scots irish connections, ANYTHING BUT BRITISH
WILL DO.

80

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 09:51:41

#74 Great post. I did the same kind of thing when I was younger. And like you and your son, I needed no prompting. Kids reach a point where they feel proud of their heritage and for the years when Scots kids were denied education on their country's history, it is excellent that so many instictively feel this pride. It has not been subdued.

81

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 09:54:37

Lets see how important this move is to the BBC?

No mention anywhere on the UK news page, even " EU to ban traditional barometers " gets a mention ;)

I guess Brown and the Sctosmans editors are trying to show how us in Scotland how british we should be but the rest of the UK couldnt care less and are gradually accepting their 'real' individual national identities.

82

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 09:56:28

#86 mr chips: Oh so you hail from the country who kept their lights on during WW2 so the German planes could find Scotland, Wales and England. You live in a country whose ancestors fought for YOUR freedom against those very German's as members of the British army and you want to be known as anything but British...Nice, very nice indeed!

83

fiferjohn,

06/06/2007 10:03:42

Britain as a nation is dead and i wish these labour bawbags woke up and realised that. i am scottish and will never be british because to me being british stands for oppression and hatred. people are waking up to what as been happening in these countries and are questioning if the union works ant more. so no to a british day has it means jack shit .

84

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 06/06/2007 10:08:02

MINISTERS have called for a national "Britain Day" in an attempt to boost patriotism, while admitting that English identity needed to be revived.

Ruth Kelly, the Communities Secretary, and Liam Byrne, the immigration minister, said in a pamphlet on Britishness that bolstering English identity should also be a "priority".

Ruth Kelly, the Communities Secretary You are with Chainese and want the democarcy also???
Liam, please wath the passports. 10,000 stolen and many forgeries . Take care ofthe books then we talk of Great or Small britain. I think Tony Blaire has made Great so Small I am ashamed to say LET US CELEBRATE when there are Englsih still dying in Iraq.

85

mr chips,

06/06/2007 10:09:27

Media 1/We went to germany on holiday a couple of years ago, had a great time, the germans are great people who like a beer and a song THEY LOVE THE SCOTS and they knew plenty of scottish songs
THE PROCLAIMERS etc. They are not living in the past unlike englands so called football supporters.
Move on man look to the future scotland will be free
sooner or later then we can have a scottish passport.

86

mr chips,

06/06/2007 10:12:46

MEDIA 1 / I forgot to mention we were staying with my english cousin who is married to a german girl.

87

iainruadh,

Cloven 06/06/2007 10:14:04

There is a difference between national identity and geographic proximity. An analysis of one the polls showed that most of the Scots who felt "a bit" British were referring to the fact that we inhabit the same land mass as the English and Welsh. Equally most Norwegians and Swedes will own up to being "Scandinavian" but would be totally opposed to any kind of political union. The same applies to geographic terms like "North America" - does this imply that Canadians want political union with the USA - or Asian - do the Indians want political union with Pakistan. The fact that we live on an island called Britain (Pretain, Cruithean) may give as something in common but does not imply common nationality.

If the Unionists have been unable to convince the vast majority of us that we are of the same nationality after 300 years, it is time they gave up.

The time is coming when the only Brits will be NI Protestants and elderly Indian immigrants from Uganda. Oh... and a few sad little sods like Media 1. More to be pitied than scorned I suppose.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as "British" nationality. The state is called the UK so technically we are citizens of the EU and the UK.

88

Alfie the OK,

England not Britain. 06/06/2007 10:15:14

Sorry ZanuLabour, you're too damn late. Britishness is as dead as Tony Blair's political career.

Recent polls have shown a real shift in the way we all regard ourselves. For instance, most people in England now think of themselves as English first and foremost. Nearly 70% of them also want an English Parliament. To be honest, those south of the border are really getting well cheesed off with ZanuLabour's politburo style edicts. Gordon Brown constantly goes on about Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights being British - they're not and he knows it. They are English - in much the same way that the Declaration of Arbroth is Scottish.... and Brown would never be caught saying that was British would he?

Britain is a busted flush - all thanks to the devolution experiment that didn't see fit to include 85% of the UK population - and sticking plaster 'Britishness' solutions simply will not do any more.

At the very least, the UK should now be a Federal model which would include an English Parliament and a First Minister for England - failing that, we'll gladly take independence.

The Pandora's Box of national identity is well and truly open. ZanuLabour's attempt to 'Britishise' the English - for it is we that this barmy initiative is surely aimed at (much as 'Britishness' lessons are ONLY being taught in English schools) will simply be chucked onto the scrapheap of crap ZanuLabour's ideas.

Britain is dead - and good riddance to that.
Now is the time for England United - bring it on!

89

Shireman,

Kilspindie 06/06/2007 10:20:12

I'm all for the introduction of 'British Day' or whatever the hell its to be called. The move towards Independence will undoubtedly gather pace following implementation of this lunatic idea. Desperate measures from ever more desperate people, desperately clinging to power.

90

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 10:20:59

Personally, I would not mind a day to celebrate Britain. Then again, I would not be phased if there was no day to celebrate Britain.

Our ancestors fought for Britain during two world wars and I for one respect their memory and their heroism. The Union Jack has the Saltire within it, that alone is reason to respect the flag of the union not to mention the importance of it.

I am Scottish and proudly so...I am also British and proudly so. I do not need to denounce my British heritage in order to feel more Scottish.

You are what your passport says you are and that is all there is to it.

91

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 10:25:18

AM2,

Your spin on the figures is based on wishful thinking...I'm with MacVicar on this one!!!!

The feeling of Britishness has been on a steady decline since 1945 in Scotland!! That you cannot deny, and the trend will only continue, especially after the events in the Scottish elections!!

People in Scotland are heartily sick of Westminster and want something better!!! An independent Scotland will become the obvious solution in the years ahead! But I suspect you already know that!!

92

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 10:35:13

#96 Alfie, good post. I must say that I am delighted Brown is despised as much down south as he is up here. No-one likes a brown noser and both England and Scotland have him well sussed.
New labour have consigned themselves to the dustbin with this ignorant and condescending fool.
Good luck to you!

93

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 10:43:29

#102 Zoom: Why should I bother what a person from anywhere else knows about the Union Jack? I KNOW, that Scotland is represented on it. It can hardly be England's fault how others outwith the UK perceive the flag. Perhaps because they are the most powerful nation in the Union it is they who obtain the most attention.

Speaking about flying flags in far flung places..Celtic, a Scottish Football team fly Irish flags..Nobody out there other than the Scots know about Brother Walfrid Kerins. But the Celtic fans do and thats all that matters. So your point is weak.

If the English market Britian as England, then shame on us for not promoting ourselves as aggresively.

Rule Britannia!

94

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 10:44:12

AM2,

Look at the decline of the Conservative party in Scotland since the 1945 election and I'll show you the steady decline of Britishness!!!LOL

95

Lock,

06/06/2007 10:49:56

There is something deeply disturbing about a 'woman' who looks and sounds like a bloke, has had 4 children in the last 10 years yet has hardly missed a single day of work.

96

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 10:53:21

AM2,

It isn't a puerile dig, it's a fact the Conservatives have ceased being a political force in Scotland in the years since 1945!!! As you would agree, the Conservatives, more than anybody, represent 'Britishness' in the eyes of the public!!

As for MacVicar's twist on statistics, anything that irritates you, gets ma vote!!!!

97

Ex Smokie,

Munich 06/06/2007 10:56:35

I'm Scottish, my best friend is English we're both married to German women. He signed my application for a postal vote. When he asked me why I was for Independence, I pointed out that it would lead to English independence. He thought about this for about two and a half seconds, and grinned. We clinked our glasses and raised a toast to..."Independence!". We will remain British geographically. Actually, I can't wait to tell him about this latest proposal, we'll have a good laugh together in the pub tonight.

Cheers everybody!

P:S Alfie #96 Great post :)

98

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:05:17

Can somebody explain to me what Britishness is?Is it cockney sparraws, London buses, fish and chips, Buckingham palace, the Tower of London, Westminster, the norman conquest, the war of the Roses, The English Civil war, Bruce Forsyth, Jim Davidson David Beckham, Posh Spice, The England football team, London.

Or is it Kilts, tartan, haggis, Billy Connelly, Bannockburn, Culloden, the highland clearances,
The battle of the Boyne, Orange lodge, Freemasons,
Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, Cardiff.

Try asking any foreigner what it means and you will get all of the first paragraph and none of the second.

You just cant seperate Britishness from Englishness its why the English have been going through an Identity crises since the Scots and Welsh Parliaments were formed.

99

Haggis The Great,

Eat it or lose it 06/06/2007 11:06:49

#39 Great Post worthy of a cut and paste:

I like many other of my countrymen consider myself to be Scottish. Not British, Not English, not more British than Scottish etc etc etc.

I was born in Scotland as my parents were, as thier parent were and so on. I am Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish and have no interest in Britain or anything British. Stick the Union Jack and anything connected to it.

My national day is St Andrew's day, its all I am interested in. If Its British, stick it, if its Scottish, love it, support it.

Give Westminister to the English and let them get on with it. Give us our country to do with as we see fit. If you eant to be British, go live in England, enough of the propoganda, we have had it for 300 years. No More. Its time to take accountability for our own affairs and be recognised as our own nation. Gordon Brown go take a hike.

Personally I think comments like this inflame the Uneducated Unionists amongs us here in our homeland. I too can trace my family tree back to 1806, all scots and no mixed blood, the cream of Scottish ancestry no doubt what with all the peoples of other countries now laying claim to our land. Those born here deserve to be treated as Scottish, my reasoning is they had no choice about being born here, however I truly beleive that we should send all the Poles, and others of eastern origin, not born here, back to whence they came.

That apart, I look forward to the day when we truly are in charge of our own affairs, perhaps then we can encourage the Unionists to leave this great land under pain or punishment.

Thanks for listening.

100

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 11:14:52

#114 Symbian: Britishness is Scottishness perfected......

101

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:20:24

116

No Britishness is Englishness with nothing added or taken out.

102

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 11:22:58

AM2,

The only source you need to look at is the election result May 3rd 2007!!!

103

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 11:27:06

#118 Boyce: My apologies I did not finish my sentence in #116...

BRITISHNESS: Is Scottishness, Welshness, N.Irishness and Englishness perfected.

104

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:27:36

#113 Haggis, yeah the post at #39 was worthy of highlighting, however, your addition is a disgrace.

105

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 06/06/2007 11:30:33

Beware - patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel! What are the pickpockets in Westminster softening us up for by proposing a 'Britain' day?

A few points I'd like to make:

(1) Like one of the earlier posters indicated, there is a date in which British values are celebrated - it's the 12 July. However, the wilful and deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of history which abounds in these islands makes sure that that date is forever associated negatively.

(2) Saint's days! Rubbish. Only catholics belive in the concept of sanctity, and this is not a catholic country (See point 1)

(3) Why does Scottish patriotism equate with English expulsion or repatriation. These people are our neighbours, with whom we share this tiny little island. Jesus said, "Love thy neighbour as thyself" and every xenophobic little reference on here to the English quite frankly, gives me the creeps.

(4) Devolved parliaments. They are here to stay, and while I didn't vote for the Scots one, we have to make it work. However, there are English regions in as much, if not more, need of devolved government than Scotland, Wales or NI.

Anyway, it's almost lunchtime, so TTFN.

106

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 06/06/2007 11:36:45

Haggis the Great - your racist filth at #113 has no place in any reasoned debate. "Send all the Poles and others of eastern european origin back to their own country" Where do you stop once you've done that? Get him off!

107

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 11:44:06

#125 FLUB: Why prevent, ban or remove someone for viewpoints which do not fit in with yours?

Just because you dont agree with him should not mean he should denied the right to express his views........

108

Boaby Dazzler,

Shipka Pass 06/06/2007 11:45:31

Want to see the how the interests of Scotland are treated in the UK parliament.

It's on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK6o3oZioaQ

Is this the kind of Britishness we are supposed to be celebrate?

109

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:45:31

120

And Scottishness is Britishness without the international condemnation and distaste.

122

I think you did showing your true colours.

110

S.Macleod,

Scotland. 06/06/2007 11:45:52

One thing I have noticed a lot is when I meet people from other countries abroad who understand little of our language they ask where I am from, most often they just say with a sort of frown on thier face "English?", to which I have to reply, "No, Scottish!", suddenly thier face lights up and they start repeating "Ah, Scotland! Scottish, Scotland!", "We love Scotland!".

Now, just why is this so?

111

megz,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 11:48:08

Well i know what they can do with britain day and their union flags, for that matter take the 12th july too and get rid of that and all the sectarian bigots that go along with it.

112

Calum Crubag,

06/06/2007 11:49:21

Britishness is a joke. It's funny that those who claim to be against Scots independence on the grounds that nationalism is 'bad' are now playing the Brit Nationalist card. Coupled with increasing xenophobia about immigrants and asylum seekers and given the unsavoury history of Britain's Empire, this is an ugly development.

We're Scots. And if we don't want to be lumper in with English xenophobia as well as their illegal wars then we should go our own way as soon as possible. End of debate.

113

Calum Crubag,

06/06/2007 11:52:04

'Britain' orignally referred to the Brythonnic Celts who survive today as the Welsh, Cornish and 'French' Bretons. If this means that the Celtic nations should celebrate their Celtic languages and roots, then im all for this.

Alba gu Brath! Saorsa dha na duthchannan Ceilteach!

114

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:56:25

131

Just when I thought your credibility couldnt get any lower you prove me wrong again.
The UK was formed by corruption and only kept together by corruption and when we finally see through all the corruption it will end.

115

megz,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 11:57:05

Being British is about being gracious in victory and magnanimous in defeat. It's about accountability, transparency, a lack of corruption. It's about having a level playing field, and strenuously resisting unfairness, bigotry and cronyism. It's about thinking before you speak and then doing so modestly, in an understated manner. It's about substance over style. It's about having a robust sense of humour that isn't so self-important that we feel unable to turn it in on ourselves.

I guess the labour party aren't british then lol I propose that scotland be exempt from britishness, anyone wish to second it?

116

GrahamL,

06/06/2007 11:58:01

#119 You say that Britain has never been "marketed" as a union, and as a result you don't want a day to celebrate Britain.
I can only assume you don't want a Britain at all then? The whole point of Britain day would be to bring this rapidly dissolving country back to having some sense of unity. You think the English have taken over the idea of Britain? That's because they have very little else in the way of national idenity, and we Scots have been so insular, so focussed on "not being English" that we've let it happen.

117

Alastair the First,

06/06/2007 11:58:26

"There seems to be little real appetite for independence in either Wales or Scotland; support for independence has not shifted since devolution."

Tell that particular lie often enough and people will accept it as truth. Perhaps you might have a better idea if you actually asked a direct question instead of offering a fudged option about vague "additional devolved powers".

118

Venom217,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:03:33

Typical New Labour - we want a national day, but we don't want to give you another holiday, so can we hijack one of your existing bank holidays please?

From the same Government that wouldn't allow Scotland to have a St Andrews day holiday.

I wonder if this is aimed at trying to strengthen the ties of the Union, more than it is about celebrating a National Identity?

Funny how we didn't need this until we got an SNP administration in Scotland?

119

Scythia,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:03:45

There will be no Scotland , never mind Britain if Ms JARVIS, Director, CRE Scotland and the other paracites of her ilk gets their way.

120

Mike S,

06/06/2007 12:05:20

In the past we did not need a Britain day; we went to war to unite the country. I suppose it didn't work this time around.

121

Bert,

06/06/2007 12:05:25

Boyce, your last paragraph at #111 is spot on. It is only since the devolved parliaments came into existence that St. George's crosses outnumbered UJ flags at England matches. There seems to be an increasing awareness of Englishness now, something I think is a good thing.

122

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:06:27

136

What the hell are you talking about. The UK was only ever going to be English from its very conception. Scotland was bought and paid for with English gold and they got more than there monies worth. Its no coincidence that the capital of Britain is London. Its no coincidence that the Union Jack shows the cross of ST George covering the other nations that a true reflection of this so called Union and always will be. We are a minority within the UK and we are treated as one.

123

Bert,

06/06/2007 12:06:48

I also see this as a total irrelevance to most people.

124

G,

dundy 06/06/2007 12:10:45

Ah, a few weeks after the election and the anti-English sentiments of the SNPites have been released again.
Even more frigthening is the sub-BNP Patriotism on display - you can't be British - you ain't like me....

We are all mongrels - the Brits are the result of 1000 of years of immigration....

125

Venom217,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:14:25

143

Good Point look at the latest Sainsbury's add with Jamie Oliver.

English this, English that and oh some Welsh Lamb.

They end the advert with a Union Jack and claim British because they sold Welsh produce?

England and Great Britain are interchangeable in English eyes, just in the same way that Engerland fans like to fly the Union Flag.

To them, the UK is England and nothing else.

Show someone abroad the Union Flag and they will ask English?

Yes, the Westminster Government has done a great job of erasing its minority partners in this Great Britain.

126

GrahamL,

06/06/2007 12:16:33

#143 I'm talking about the sort of attitude you've capably demonstrated there. This union is 3-400 years old (depending how you want to measure it), and we're still moaning about the English being in charge. England was/is the biggest part of Britian, London was/is the most prosperous city in Britain. We've had so long to get over ourselves and build up our presence, but we just haven't bothered.

To paraphrase your last sentence:
We are a minority in the UK, and we're behaving like one.

127

Lock,

06/06/2007 12:18:09

Simple solution.

Anniversary of the Union is May 1. We already have a May Day holiday. Let those who want to celebrate being 'British' do so. Let the rest of us have our normal Bank Holiday as we do every year.

And for all those who clamour for a St Andrews day holiday - November 30th FFS! Could we not find another patron saint with their 'day' in the middle of August?

128

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 12:21:25

124. FLUB

It seems your point number 3 contradicts number 2?

Scotland is a mixed faith country. If catholic and even non catholics are happy with saints then thats fine by me. I am not a catholic and having a saint Andrew and a patron saint of travelers etc are symbols I quite like. If people want to have saints days fine, if you dont want to participate then dont.

129

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:22:46

AM2

Explain to me how Britishness respects Scottishness in what form does this respect manifest itself and why did Scotland have to be bought and paid for before it was joined to the Union?
For Scots being British dilutes their national identies for the English being british enhances their national identites because they control the whole of the UK from London so if nothing else it has enhanced their land mass.

130

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:23:58

150

What choice do we have in this Union but to be a minority?

131

Andrew Ireland,

Dublin 06/06/2007 12:24:56

Bring it on... the more Brown bangs the British nationalist drum the more he exposes how feeble and ridiculous a notion it is in the 21st century...

132

GrahamL,

06/06/2007 12:28:03

Numerically? None. But we don't have to act like a stroppy child about it, just because we can't be in charge doesn't mean the whole thing is pointless.

133

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:28:43

149

Your statistics as usual are pish. I for one have never in my life time been asked this question and I know of no other Scot anywhere who has.
you would have thought more people in Scotalnd would have noticed these polls by now.
Like I said no crediblity.

134

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:30:32

158

your absolutely right it only takes a vote for Independence simple really but what a job it is to convince folk.

135

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:32:43

#145 G, show me one anti english post.
how come no one never acuses SNP supporters as being anti welsh or anti northern irish? Where does this anti english perception come from? Why would you think anyone would be anti english? Scottish independence has nothing to do with views on the English, Welsh or Northern Irish - it is about Scotland.

136

Bert,

06/06/2007 12:40:23

While I don't agree with AM2 Zoom I think your attack for emphasising 'British superiority' is a bit daft. Does 'wha's like us?' ring any bells? You'll probably find that most nations consider themselves better than others in some way or another, whether that be globally or on a lesser, local scale.

137

James Annand,

06/06/2007 12:46:34

149 AM2

Here we go again:

"Alex Salmond is on the record, in a press release on "the SNP's website, saying “Their vision of Britishness is narrow, bland and boring. Our vision of Scottishness is inclusive, diverse and exciting”
.
.
Your quoted text in full:
.
.
"Whoever heard of a Member of Parliament – a Member of Parliament – having the temerity to instruct his constituents on what to wear?

Jack Straw – Alf Garnet without the braces.

There is a deeper point of course. To someone like Straw diversity is a threat. To people like us it is a strength.

Their vision of Britishness is narrow, bland and boring.

Our vision of Scottishness is inclusive, diverse and exciting.

And our Asian community are among the most patriotic Scots in the country. They don’t need lectures in dress or in loyalty from the likes of Jack Straw."
.
.
.
That is perfectly reasonable to me. You really have to stop taking these quotes out of context. It's not helping your argument at all.

138

,

06/06/2007 12:52:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 686340, Article id was mapped to record!
139

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 12:53:14

Scots always have an inclusive view of nationhood.

For example, tonight i'm going to be celebrating both
my Scottishness, and my bonds of friendship with
my Estonian brethren ;-)

140

Douglas Eckhart,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:55:22

I can't believe the narrow minded criticism aimed at St Andrews and how he should be erased from Scotland as 'Andrew never came here so its all false'.

What utter narrow minded nonsense, which completely disregards over 1000 years of scottish history.

its irrelevent whether St Andrew ever came here or if his relics were genuine or not:
the point is, medieval scots esteemed him highly and he became a symbol of devotion and national unity for the scottish people.

St Andrew is a integral part of scottish cultural history and identity and to deny a huge part of scottish culture, history and identity 'because he never came here' show a fundamental failure to engage the brain. Idiocy.

141

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 12:58:21

149. AM2. You make some good points but the data must be worrying. It is true I exaggerated earlier and there are degrees of anything however I still stand by my point that only a small minority of Scots consider themselves British first and foremost.

"43% of people in Scotland consider their British identity to be at least as important". Yes, so the majority do not.

When put in context as you look at things like blanket british media pushing British, School education largely ignoring Scottish history and culture etc then this 43% after 300 years of the union can only be considered as a failure. It certainly seems to have failed the 57% majority you have identified?

It is amazing that the 43% figure is not higher. Scotland has endured many aspects of cultural suppression over the 300 years of the union, lack of basic Scottish history but a focus on British and English history from education and media is nothing but a pillar of indoctrination.

Having said all that I think the union has been very good to Scotland overall however I think we more than paid for our own passage.

Your arguments about AS are twisted as AS was obviously talking about how we Scots should see ourselves not how we see others. Talking about narrow bland and boring he was referring to Jack Straw and GBrowns ideas that we are all British - a narrow and boring view of cultural diversity in the UK.

Try sticking to the stats AM2 - its more your area. Twisting other peoples words to suit your agenda still needs some work.

142

ailein,

Germany 06/06/2007 13:00:07

"We" share common values with a large number of other nations. "We" don't necessarily have to be in a political union with them to do so.

143

James Annand,

06/06/2007 13:01:46

167

So.....being British means that I should kill Germans?

My grandad was a commando during the war and I'm incredibly proud of him. He never talked of what he did during the war to my dad. From what my dad said, he was haunted by it, and only told him one story when he was very drunk. He blew up a lighthouse and slit some German soldiers throats iin the process.


Of course, that had nothing to do with him feeling British, or Scottish, or Capitalist, or Communist or whatever. He fought because everyone had to.

144

howyoudoingboy,

britian and proud 06/06/2007 13:04:03

no most volunteered for save their nation

145

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 13:05:11

#173 Lucifer?

146

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 13:07:20

173. Symbian.

Easy - Gordon Brown ;)

147

ayeaye,

edinburgh 06/06/2007 13:10:03

If Mr Salmond wants a public holiday to declare the start of a "winter festival" in Scotland, then he should make it 31st October. For this is Samhuinn, the Celtic festival to mark the start of Winter, and not some arbitrary date named after a Christian Saint.

Mr Salmond should do a bit of homework about this country and its customs which he claims to love so much as to want its independence.

148

James Annand,

06/06/2007 13:10:27

You misunderstand me. He did volunteer. You don't get drafted into a commando unit.

What I meant was, there was a very real danger that the world was about to change into a very evil place. That is why they had to fight.

149

Boaby Dazzler,

Shipka Pass 06/06/2007 13:10:30

Want to see the how the interests of Scotland are treated in the UK parliament?

It's on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK6o3oZioaQ

Is this the kind of Britishness we are supposed to be celebrate?

150

Chas,

06/06/2007 13:17:51

Britishness was an identity forged through imperialist expansion, a succession of wars with France from the late 17th throughout the 18th century, and of course, protestantism. None of that is particularly relevant today. The New Labour Unionist Party should give it up and let it die. Stripped of all that made it, Britishness today means nothing. Speed the day when the British state eventually ceases to be.

151

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 13:18:53

157. Symbian.

When AM2 and others speak in this way you can see it is an artifact of Empire, as other cultures have already rejected their britishness as the commonwealth has diminished.

If the cultures and residents that make up the UK combine somehow to Britishness then each culture has a degree of impact.

Since England at least 10 times more impact than any other set of cultures then Britishness adds up to one thing: The Anglicization of the other cultures.

QED: British = anglicized.

152

Bert,

06/06/2007 13:19:39

#174 Zoom, you misunderstood (I think). The point I was making was that one of the things we Scots are fond of saying is 'Wha's like us? De'il the ane and they're a' deid.'(apologies for spelling). That oft used phrase surely states quite clearly the impression that Scots think themselves better than anyone else. Does that make us racist?

153

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 13:23:15

178. ayeaye. Sorry its a PR stunt. AS wants the tourists to believe that in Scotland winter only starts at the End of November ;)

154

it has always been allan,

06/06/2007 13:25:02

someone please tell me just how many woman ministers we have to govern us all today.

155

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 13:29:46

183. Think you are reading the line wrang. I read it as 'different', no 'better.'

156

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 13:32:51

The idea of 'superiority' rather than 'difference' is what surely makes the british nationality abhorrent. This is reflected, no doubt unconsciously by AM2 and his likes' categorisation of it as a higher-order nationality, so that you can in effect be 'scots' AND british.

Not pakistani and british though, I fear.

157

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 13:44:58

Poor example there actually, perhaps iranian would be
more topical. Point being, the ideal of 'britishness'
being pushed is not inclusive.

Its about stripping cultural layers, in order to make
the population more 'unified.' I think it's an
old-fashioned, and rightly discredited notion.

158

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 13:46:40

145

You might as well say we are all fish after a few million years of evolution. Aye really good point.

159

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 13:49:23

The problem, is that the white-anglo-saxon-bulldog-owning-sun-reading
immigrant-hating citizen of narrow-mindedton is
the poster-child, like it or not.

They are the ones wrapped in the union jack.

Being 'british' is too closely akin to wearing a swastika armband to a fancy dress party.

160

AJM,

06/06/2007 13:51:25

#190 Symbian

St Symbian, what do you think?

This is a reply i posted on the tram story, wondered what you were on about.

161

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 13:52:28

#191 DONNCHADH: lmao!

Bet your a laugh down the pub.

What you meant was "white people"

Perhaps you see white people as bacteria. Thats your perogative and nobody can deny you your right to voive your views. But personally, I see white societies in a different light...

Thats my perogative.

162

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 13:53:13

The big question is - how come you have to be 'british'
to live in britain?

You don't appear to have to be spanish to live on the
costa brava...

163

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 13:55:38

I think media1 just rested my case for me. :-)

white societies????

I bet you see them by the light of a nice burning cross
sunshine.

164

Super Mario Tram,

06/06/2007 13:58:44

Just Silly. Four "Nations" under a groove.

It'll never work. Will metamorphosise into an Orange Parade in Glasgow.

165

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 14:00:55

#195 Donnchadh: No not really. Besides I did not bring the race issue up, you did..

I only commented that whilst your entitled to hate white's....(as you appear to do) I am entitled to see them in a different light.

166

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 14:14:44

Yep, you can see white people in a different light to
red, yellow brown black orange or green ones if you
like. I would call that a perspective problem.

167

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 14:14:52

194

Thats no the point.
Costa Brava is in Spain and is therefore Spanish.
Edinburgh and Glasgow are in Scotland but they are British. A subtle difference.

168

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 14:22:45

#198 donnchadh: I disagree!

I accept that a mercedes and a Volkswagen are both cars. But as a human I recognise they are different!

Look..No need for you to try and justify your dislike of whites to me..I accept your position and respect your views. I just dont agree with them is all..

169

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 06/06/2007 14:27:14

Symbian #190.

I'm going to fall right into your trap. Without prejudice to my view that sanctity is no more than a preposterous popish conceit, the patron saint of lost causes is, I think, the person the left-footers refer to as St. Jude. So there!

TTFN

170

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 14:55:51

202

You are mostly right but with a wee bit of a misconception in there they havent quite lost the empire yet. The Union is the very last part of the English empire. It all started here and it will finally finish here.

171

Jardine,

06/06/2007 15:11:03

#173

St Margaret Thatcher the Blessed of Grantham and Finchley?

172

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 15:12:14

ZOOM: Cmon lad, you are not employing rational thought regarding this issue.

You actually have yourself believing that people who do not vote SNP are not Scottish. Therefore, it appears that you wish to exist in a one party state Scotland in which opposition to the SNP is quickly extingushed.

I fear a split in the union will create a one party state Scotland. That can never be permitted to happen.

173

James Annand,

06/06/2007 15:13:47

Okay AM2. Could you explain why British nationalism is better than Scottish nationalism?

Could you also tell me if you are going to continue to post quotes that are out of context because they suit your 'SNP are racist' agenda.

I'm referring to post 166

174

James Annand,

06/06/2007 15:15:56

Media 1. Post independence, I would imagine the SNP would quickly disappear as it will have fufilled its main purpose.

Up until recently Scotland WAS a one party state.

175

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 15:23:35

#210 James Annand: Perhaps it would disappear. Truth is, there has always been opposition in Scotland. Maybe not enough to have beaten off labour in the past, but it always existed.

The SNP supporters appear to think that any vote other than SNP means you are not Scottish..That just isnt true

176

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 15:30:38

209

So would everybody else.
Aye pish as usual if the election showed nothing else it showed the great Scottish public is still undecided one way or the other.
Labour still has to rely on its block voting such as with the Orange Lodge organisations within Scotland to keep its voting base from collapsing altogether.
The Tories have never had a bigger hard core base of more than 10 per cent of the population and the Lib Dems have always been a non entity in Scottish politics.
If the vast majority of Scottish voters got off their complacent arses and voted we would see a different perspective to Scottish politics all together and a much quicker transisition into Independence.

177

,

06/06/2007 15:34:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
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178

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 15:39:52

217

Region or seperate nation?

179

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 15:42:35

#216 AM2

You give yourself away (again...)

to 'anglicise' is to make more english, that is the word's definition, and so is in no way a 'one-way-street'

if that is what british means (less welsh, less irish, less scots) then it is plainly a bad thing, if you value those cultures.

180

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 15:44:03

oops... should have read:

to 'anglicise' is to make more english, that is the word's definition, and so is in every way a 'one-way-street'

181

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 15:47:38

216

So in what way has England Wales and N Ireland been Scottisised? or England Scotland and Wales been Irishised or England Scotland and N Ireland been Welshised?

182

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 15:48:31

222

And there you have it.

183

Miss H,

06/06/2007 15:59:08

AM2 your posts reveal a complete obsession with 'Britishness'.

You are way more obsessed with being British than most SNP members are about being Scottish.

People are bound to speculate why that is.

They may leap to the wrong conclusion but you must admit you are a bit obsessed about this subject.

184

worlass,

Borders 06/06/2007 16:01:13

The cry for Britishness should of course be disregarded,what the scots want is,it would appear is Scottishness and what the English definatly want is rid of the wingeing,whineing people that make up scotland,therefor an English Day should be part of the calender.
I notice from the postings today that a lot of whingers post from abroad,which I find quite normal for the type ie a scotsman abroad first act is to form a White Heather Club,organise a Burns night,(even though they can't make head nor tail of the gibberish)wear the ridiculous skirt,sorry kilt,sing of the "Bonnie Banks"and forget they hail from Hamilton,Leith,Lochee or some other scotish slum,and generally keep the local populace amused by their antics.
Devolution from scotland is what England needs.

185

TheGlaswegian,

Edinburgh - we don't need no stinkin' trams 06/06/2007 16:03:36

#212 "The SNP supporters appear to think that any vote other than SNP means you are not Scottish"

erm naw. For me, If you don't vote SNP you are either a numpty, a unionist bigot (you know exactly what I mean), a long term brainwashed labour victim, or anti Scottish.

#216 Only a non Scot could write such a statement. Obviously, with you being a northern Irish unionist, your type strived for the dilution of both your hosts native culture and your own (scots) to that of the butcher's apron and bulldog image. You are perfectly entitled to this opinion but there are vast numbers of us in Scotland who do not see this as attractive and who do not in any count it as an advantage of the union.

186

New Town Resident,

06/06/2007 16:04:20

being British;

1. Sincerely hope Scotland and England both win tonight so hopefully we can play each other in the final rather than a bunch of foreigners.

2. Reject the recent imposition by the Norman invaders of the 3 Lions and St. George on the English. Remember the English fought for freedom at Hastings under their patron saint St. Edmund Martyr and the Dragon flag! These should now be reinstated.

(Note some sad antiquaries argue the Dragon flag came over in the second century AD as the badge of a Syrian cavalry regiment, based at Trimontium (Melrose), so maybe the Dragon flag is also Scottish?)

187

FLUB,

Cowdenbeath 06/06/2007 16:08:53

Boyce #213 - Labour block voting with the Orange Lodge? Where do you come up with this tosh?

Labour in Scotland has traditionally been the RC vote of choice, with Orangemen (at one time the largest working class movement in Scotland) voting Conservative & Unionist (never Tory).

Everybody seems to be looking for a term to describe influence of Britishness.

How about BRITANNICISE?

TTFN - going to the pictures with my first wife tonite!

188

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:18:09

234

Do you still think there is a difference in voting Tory or Labour in Scotland?
The Orange Lodge will block vote for any Unionist party that has a chance of winning. Its the Union or nothing for them not party politics.
Labour has never been an RC vote of choice it used to be a working class vote of choice now most working folk are a bit confused about Labour which is why many traditional working class Labour supporters have stopped voting altogther.
If the SNP stays to the left of centre they have an excellent chance of scooping up this vote.

189

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:38:32

AM2

I see youve done yer usual and avoided answering all the questions put to you on this forum again.

190

howyoudoingboy,

british and proud 06/06/2007 16:41:18

here is an example of what it means to be British
and a scot


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1890214.ece

Tributes were paid yesterday after the death of a Second World War airman who had become the RAF’s most decorated gunner.

Wallace McIntosh, 87, who died on Monday, was described as a “true hero” who repeatedly cheated death during his 55 sorties as a rear gunner in Bomber Command’s 207 Squadron.

Based at Langar, Nottinghamshire, and Spilsby, Lincolnshire, Flying Officer McIntosh is believed to hold the record for the most enemy kills, with eight confirmed hits and one “probable” during bombing raids in 1943 and 1944.
A spokesman for the RAF said: “This guy was a true hero. Anyone who flew in Lancasters during the bombings knew the odds were against them. Your life was on the line every moment. To do the job as well as he did was truly exceptional.” Mr McIntosh, who died at the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary of lung cancer, joined the RAF at the height of the Second World War.

Tir nam Beann, nan Gaisgeach,
’s nan Gleann,
’S i Tir nan Gaisgeach a th’ann. — Iain Rothach.

(A hero’s land of hill and glen,
this is the Land of Brave Men. — John Munro.)

191

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:48:14

240

It disnae just mean he was a brave man then?
He was only brave cos he was Scots or British?

192

AJ fi Fife,

Fife 06/06/2007 16:52:38

240,

Great story, but not relevant these days!!!

193

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:58:36

243

The only thing wrong wie that suggestion is ah didnae think o it first.

194

howyoudoingboy,

british and proud 06/06/2007 16:59:05

#240 at least you treat him with honour

195

Robin Bather,

06/06/2007 17:09:36

I used to have a Scottish boss years ago.
When I wanted to tease him, I simply dropped into a casual conversation with him "....and you're dead right, I suppose it's because you are English that you think......."
Worked like a charm. He always swallowed the bait and got laughingly angry.
Wonder what happened to Hugh Bruce? He was a good chap.

196

Miss H,

06/06/2007 17:14:05

237 What's wrong with the quote? I think it is quite appropriate for Jack Straw.

You see, the real difference between Labour's view of Britishness and the SNP's view of Scottishness is this:

The SNP are happy for people to embrace Scottishness on their own terms. It doesn't matter what their background is, their religion, their colour or indeed whether they are on the left or the right.

Labour's approach on the other hand requires people to sign up to Labour's vision of Britishness - which includes the Union of course. As far as they are concerned it is not for individuals to decide for themselves what it means to be British - the government will tell them and they had better accept it or else.

That's what this so-called British Day is really about.

197

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 17:18:16

247

But thats no what we are referring to is it.
A good example of angleised is the fact our native language is now English, Our Royal family is now the House of Windsor and our government is in London.
It doesnie compare to having a pipe band in the Canadian mounties does it?

198

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 17:18:59

248

any of em.

199

8noodles,

06/06/2007 17:20:53

I would just like to know how many countrys are joined by the word British. Because within the first two paragraphs of the story above, all I saw was British = English.

Maybe AM2 could help me in finding out what happened to Scotland, Ireland and wales, because it sounds like you want it your way and ALL your way.

200

Eve,

Scotland 06/06/2007 17:26:44

#116. Media 1: Thats what you say!!!

I was always informed that it was a burden.

Where as Scottishness was somthing to have pride and passion in. And the same time I was told respect others right to have pride about their nationality.

BUT I'll never get the whole Brittishness thing, it all comes across as pure pointlessness. As it appears to be about being negative about your outlook on life and being ashamed unless your a neo-nazi then your completle the opiste and also a danger to anyone who differs you.

201

Eve,

Scotland (Listen to Scotland finist on the radio) 06/06/2007 17:36:42

#131. AM2: Totaly Braw joke, had a really good laugh.

Please anyone form any contry in the world can say that and some of it sadly doesn't ring true.

The first Unionist I met were the most bigoted people I've ever met. The told me big up your prodisent family and death to your Cathlic family I was only 8 when they said this and they'd been pestering me about what religion I was for 2 years before that.

Insadently both familys get on really well together, I think it help that the prosy side are also more incliend to be Scot Nats.

202

Eve,

Scotland (Listen to Scotland finist on the radio) 06/06/2007 17:46:34

#196 Super Mario Tram: Well what left of them any way, was unforchent to be in the visenity of an ornge walk this year, my poor wee ears, But I had a laugh there was only about 50 of them in total in a big orange lodge place in Glasgow. There must be about 5 of them in the not so big orange areas.

#253. pencildick: I was told she was witch. But which witch was she? Or was she something else?

203

Celtic Cousin,

Wales 06/06/2007 17:49:15

#48 Correction - St Patrick, according to legend, was from Wales as was our own St David. Something about the Welsh having more saints than sinners!

I agree with the guy from the England First Party -each country to it's own celebratory National Day.

204

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 18:18:05

It is interesting to note that if the British National party ever changed its name to the English national party they wouldnt have to change anything else.

205

Islay Herald,

06/06/2007 18:20:34

The Empire, the sole reason why Scotland allowed itself to be incorporated into the Union, is defunct. In 1707 it may have been expedient. Scotland's interests were subordinated to those of England, but it gave us access to foreign markets, which had been constructively denied to us by the London government during the Darien period. It gave us access to the Empire.
But the Empire is a thing of the past and so is 'Britishness'. I am indeed 'British' by geography, in that I live on an island called Great Britain. However, I also live in a continent called Europe, a planet called Earth. Doesn't mean I want to be ruled from Berlin or Washington.
We no longer require to subordinate our interests in order to gain access to foreign markets. The EU provides the access we have always sought. I like being part of Europe. Europe is a club of equals, not subordinates. If you want Scotland to remain part of the UK you need to accept Scotland will ALWAYS be a subordinate part of the UK. That's good enough for many, but, and I cannot state this clearly or frankly enough, NO truly patriotic Scot could possibly prefer subordination to independence. Am I questioning the patriotism of Unionists? Yup. Sue me.
Better still, anyone who wants to be ruled from London should consider emigrating to England. Leave Scotland for those who wish to take it forward positively and constructively into the 21st century.
Stick your Britishness where the sun don't shine!

206

megz,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 18:26:44

I vote SNP and it doesn't bother me what other people vote for it is up to them, i don't think they are any less Scottish for it. Where the Scottish arm of the English party's concerned, i don't believe that they have Scotlands best interests at heart, as has been shown over the past 8 years in the devolved government. Given the 'who cares' attitude that labour has voiced over Scottish issues it merely shows their feelings over Scotland as a whole. Personally i think it is a really sad day when it is the TORIES that are actually behaving like grownups and the lib/lab poodles have spat the dummy and are acting like spoilt bratz.

As for Saints days i think each country should have an actual holiday for their own saint seems fair enough. St patricks day and st george's day are more celebrated than st andrews and i think more should be done to redress that, as for st davids i'm not sure how well celebrated that is.

207

Donnchadh,

06/06/2007 18:30:44

261 St Patrick was from Kilpatrick, 5 miles frae Dumbarton.

och, o.k. this is turning intae a game of
"I'm patron saint of Ireland, and so's my wife" :-)

208

Donnchadh,

North 06/06/2007 18:35:45

B.t.w... wee acid test... AM2 and Media1 were both posting during the scotland game.

What odds those two most eminent scots are now cheering on our beloved southern cousins, and won't appear for the duration of england's match?

209

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 06/06/2007 18:43:31

I thought St Patrick came from Dumbarton but spoke what would be considered Welsh as that was the language the ancient Britons spoke.

As for Britishness Day, I think it is a lost cause now. When Alex Salmond, the SNP First Minister of Scotland is invited by Rev Dr Ian Paisley, the DUP First Minister of Northern Ireland for an official visit to that country, then the idea that Ruth Kelly and Liam Byrne (whose names look more at home in the Irish Republic) cozying up to the Scot Gordon Brown and suggesting that we should all celebrate Britishness seems as likely to be successful as Canute's trip to the seaside. England may be waking up to the notion of preserving Britishness but the the celtic nations of these islands have moved on and have their own notions of national identity.
The NuLabour Party which espoused the ideas of multiculturalism has done nothing but denigrage England's sense of its identity and now it is desperately trying to preserve an identity which ceased in the decades following the end of the Second World War. To promote "Englishness" now would be to concede that the UK is no longer a cohesive entity and that the Scots, Welsh and Irish were doing things their own way without reference to England. This has all to do with Gordon Brown still in denial, justifying himself as the next Prime Minister.
Even our Royal Family, which has survived an adapted since the days of Kenneth MacAlpin (or even Alfred the Great) has learned to accept the changes which may hold in store and is moving with the times.

210

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 18:58:11

268

Theres only one of them. He or she failed to convince anybody that He or she is 2 different posters and long time ago.
Effin prat also posts as Duncan from Edinburgh.

211

,

06/06/2007 19:49:38
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212

DavidPerth,

London 06/06/2007 19:51:52

Reading this tonight is giving me a good laugh and a few tears at the same time. You can see how Gordon Brown works though - toss in a spinned story about a British day and everyone's attention focuses on that rather than on what we could achieve in Scotland. Ignore this "British Day"; its irrelevant.

Some key points I have to post:

AM2 - Why do you care so much about a "Britain" day. You're from N. Ireland right? So, you're not even British. Ireland was never part of Britain; you are a subject of the United Kingdom but you are not British.

All the unionists - Please, if you're going to quote your devine right to be British, could you at least get the name of the flag right! It is the union flag and only (I repeat, only) call the union jack when it is on a ship in a foreign port. This last point is petty, I know, but if you love Britain so much, you could at least be accurate.

213

Teeny Totty Turqouise Hexagon Bun,

06/06/2007 19:56:21

Personall I like trams a lot and I think we should get them.

What is this pish you are going on and on and on about ?

214

Teeny Totty Turqouise Hexagon Bun,

06/06/2007 19:58:42

I'm scottish. Most of the people i work with are English. We get on fine.

None of us are interested in this Pish and gordon brown knows it.

My gut feeling - media invented rubbish.

215

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 20:01:32

AM2. You quoted AS totally out of context and deliberately then compared that to comments about foreign cultures for effect. Your reference to SNP.org is just added as an attempt to reinforce your twisted statement.

Most casual readers will not know the truth of what was said neither would they look up some statement on an external site. Obfuscation and twisting the truth to support your argument when you knew it was out of context is pretty lame.

216

DavidPerth,

London 06/06/2007 20:14:13

AM2, No, the term Britain has been used synonymously by many people to mean the United Kingdom, but I think they're wrong. Just because they use the term doesn't mean they are right.

The 1707 act of union defined Britain as England, Scotland and Wales. The later act of parliament incorporating Ireland defined the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Ireland's division by Westminster left what we now know as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Neither you, nor I as a Scottish person are British. We are subjects of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, citizens of the United Kingdom.

If the union is to be celebrated, then it is the United Kingdom which should be celebrated not Britain, for we are subjects of the Kingdom and not citizens. Unfortunately :(

217

Selgovae,

Scotland 06/06/2007 20:15:46

#276 AM2

My book says Cumbria, and puts the place between Halfwhistle and Brampton on the modern map. It also puts his birth at about 415, a bit later than your reference. My book has a hard cover so carries more authority than a pdf file. :-)

He was almost certainly British, so i'll concede Honorious for St. Patrick's Day.

But really, do all you people take your nationality so seriously? There are greater things in life? The touch of a woman's skin, the smell of cut grass, Archie Gemmell's goal against Holland, ....

218

David MacVicar,

web 06/06/2007 20:24:55

AM2. You state that Anglicisation is a good thing.
Multi cultural influences on Scottish culture or any culture is probably a good thing yes.

Anglicisation of other cultures to the extent that the other cultures are smothered is very unhealthy and this is what has happened and continues. If British culture was balanced then all cultures would effect each other in an extensive way. How much has Welsh culture been adopted or represented in Scotland? It has had so little effect it can be largely discounted.

So imo English culture dominates and overrides the rest of the union members and does so by a large margin. This is reinforced through the anglo focus of media and education and lack of eg. Scottish history at school. How much Scottish history was/is taught in English classrooms compared to English history taught here?

You are free to hold onto your British identity as you see fit, meanwhile the majority of Scots and an increasing minority of English are rejecting this manufactured cultural identity and seeing themselves as having a national identity and separate and distinct cultures. Britain and empire has failed.

219

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 20:25:32

Eric #48 St Paddy was a Son of the Rock (Dumbarton)

220

Celtic Cousin,

Wales 06/06/2007 20:27:42

According to legend St Patrick was of Romano-British origin and spoke both Latin and Brythonic (ancient Welsh) Banwen in Wales is reputed to be his birthplace. I submit therefore, that Wales' claim to be the birthplace of two Saints (David and Patrick) to be valid.

221

Celtic Cousin,

Wales 06/06/2007 20:29:29

Three if you include Ryan Giggs!!!!!!!!!

222

,

06/06/2007 20:40:15
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223

James Annand,

06/06/2007 20:44:21

237 AM2

I was going to respond, but it seems that others have done it for me.

I would say that most people don't have the inclination to look up your quotes. Until very recently I didn't. You rely on this as it helps you make sweeping statements that imply racism and xenophobia where, in this case, the exact opposite is what has been said.

224

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 20:50:43

Free Scotland from the curse of the English Queen.

225

,

06/06/2007 20:51:07
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226

James Annand,

06/06/2007 20:52:34

Telling people that they must conform is hardly "inclusive, diverse and exciting"

If the SNP were to say that everyone has to wear kilts to work and take up the pipes (or the accordian as the case may be) or else: I would say that would lead to a narrow minded, bland and boring nation.

See the difference?

227

Name,

06/06/2007 20:54:41

Some saddos on this comments page need to get a life and also grow out of the parochialism and racist tendencies they seem to have.

228

Rootman,

Somewhere in the UK 06/06/2007 20:56:12

I move that July 4th be celebrated as British Pride day, which coincides with the day we broke off with those wretched Americans!

229

New Town Resident,

06/06/2007 21:08:10

For what it is worth my comment 232 (part 2) was tongue in cheek as a response to people raking up history. Most unpleasant some of the comments were too - its the future that matters.

However concerning recent history I will make a point because its in very much in my mind today. Even if not very "British" and maybe a bit emotional.

Its my privilege to have met a few members of 21st Army Group, most of whom are now dead. But my father fought with some of those who I never met because they are buried in the Commonwealth cemetry in Bayeaux.

They are Scottish and English (British) soldiers buried together in earth ceded in perpetuity by France to Britain. Of course I wouldn't suggest the SNP will want the Scottish soldiers exhumed and buried seperately from English soldiers. So it will be inronic won't it, whatever the future holds at least the five acres in Bayeaux will be British forever.

Or what is the SNP policy on that one? Exhume the graves and divide the graveyard?

230

Greenheatman,

06/06/2007 21:44:42

Where do I apply - not?

231

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 21:50:47

216 - in other words Viva North Britain

232

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 21:55:55

Chairman Gordon 244. Cannae have it on that date - that's the Embra September weekend.
Back to the diary CG !

233

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 21:58:07

256 - weel said Ms Hyde !

234

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 22:01:13

Celtic Cousin 260 - St Paddy spoke ancient Welsh (Brythonic) but he belonged Dumbarton (as does David Byrne fae Talking Heads).

235

Breezy,

06/06/2007 22:02:55

I still say April 1 st !

236

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 22:04:33

283 - what will happen when you get voted off the board ?

237

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 22:07:44

289 - Puir auld Giggsy - never got to play in the World Cup finals or Euro Championship finals, just like George Best.

238

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 22:11:05

301 - cos ir coincides with a public holiday (Embra weekend. Dig what I'm getting at ? We want ANOTHER holiday : )

239

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 22:14:16

306 - and St Mirren are crap !

240

Pilrig,

Livingston 06/06/2007 22:15:58

stone the craws - I'm getting this thread all to masel. Better move on and bore some other poor bugger.....

241

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 23:00:55

Jesu Christo ...... Pilrig's gone bonkers ...... run fur yur life.

242

,

06/06/2007 23:56:36
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243

guero gringo,mexico,

07/06/2007 00:43:49

Here in Mexico I am often asked if I am American or British. I always reply that I am SCOTTISH.

244

Croman mac Nessa,

07/06/2007 01:18:10

AM2, in comments 94, 112, & 149 you whine about "spin" from others, yet you yourself have spun the figures to suit your own bias. The poll results (as you gave in comment 94) are as follows:

British not Scottish 10%
More British than Scottish 4%
Equally British and Scottish 29%
More Scottish than British 29%
Scottish not British 26%
Refused/don’t know 3%

What I get out of that is that 29% are "more Scottish than British" and 26% are "Scottish not British," which gives a total of 55% who prefer being Scottish over being British. Try and spin that again, now that the real significance of the figures have been made plain.

245

Name,

07/06/2007 03:09:32

#327

WOW!

246

Royster,

07/06/2007 06:21:07

#70. Just in the process of reading that book by Oppenheimer. It certainly explains the dearth of Celtic place names in England and the desciptions of the people by ancient scholars stand up. Also the genetics seem to make sense though I'm no expert. I just have a problem with the Celtic names given to the tribes which occupied 'England'.

247

Croman mac Nessa,

07/06/2007 08:28:04

70 & 330, had Oppenheimer and his pals bothered to do any study of historical linguistics, they might not have produced such an untenable hypothesis. For a critique of Oppenheimer's thesis from within the linguistic community, see:

http://linguistlist.org/issues/14/14-1876.html

248

Croman mac Nessa,

07/06/2007 11:46:40

332, AM2

In the posts which I referenced, however, you did not repeat that statement from post 3 (and even in that post you attempted to dismiss the 55% as not necessarily in favour of independence). However, let's look at your adjusted results in post 94:

"More Scottish than British 29/88 = 33%
Scottish not British 26/88 = 30%"

That's even more interesting, because it gives 63% who regard "Scottish" as preferable to "British." Naetheless, you fail to point this out in the same post, instead preferring to assert that "70% have varying degrees of Britishness."

In post 149, you prefer to spin the figures as "43% of people in Scotland consider their British identity to be at least as important as any Scottish identity they may have," while still ignoring the 55% or 63% who would prefer to identify themselves as "Scottish."

Not only is your Unionist "majority" still a minority, but it also again fails to point out the 55% or 63% who view themselves as Scottish first (or exclusively).

To "feel some degree of Britishness" is relatively easy, since the definition of "British" is hazy and might apply to anything from national citizenship to personal identity. It might mean "citizen of the British Empire," or it might mean "person whose ancestry includes persons from various regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland," or it might mean something else entirely. For example, how many older Hindustanis might feel themselves to be, in some way, "British"?

Indeed, even I feel some degree of "Britishness," since my ancestry (and my cultural heritage) includes not only Scottish, but also Welsh, Irish, Anglo-Saxon, and Norman (and other) antecedents. As far as regards the questions of devolution and independence, however, I'm all for the dissolution of the United Kingdom (if m

249

Celtic Cousin,

Wales 07/06/2007 18:37:27

Pilrig -

a) The feller from Talking Heads speaks ancient
Welsh does he?

b) Sadly, neither St Patrick nor St David didn't
make it to the world cup finals - bit like St Giggs!


 

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