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Brown to Scotland: Think big and reject narrow nationalism



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GORDON BROWN yesterday urged Scotland to dismiss the nationalist agenda to ensure it plays a major role in the 21st century.
The Prime Minister delivered a stinging criticism of the SNP, and warned that Scots would only be able to make a difference to global challenges if they remained part of Britain.

In his first speech to the Scottish Labour Party conference as
Prime Minister, Mr Brown urged Scots to think big and not become parochial or obsessed with "narrow" nationalism.

He contrasted his global aims of eradicating disease and providing free education for all with the SNP's desire to "put up barriers" between countries. Mr Brown surprised delegates by delivering his 45-minute speech without notes or an autocue. Instead, he paced around the Aviemore stage, describing his Scottish upbringing and his pride in his home town, Kirkcaldy, his constituency in Fife and his country.

But he then outlined his desire to take social justice around the world, pointing out the achievements of Labour over its last ten years in power and what he wanted to achieve in the future.

The Prime Minister wanted to portray the Scottish Labour Party as a big national party in an international context, particularly after its election defeat by the SNP.

The aim was for the Prime Minister's international status and his message to carry outside the conference hall, persuading disillusioned Labour voters that the party represents more, and can do more, than the SNP.

Mr Brown referred to the global challenges of climate change, disease and poverty and held up a vision of being the "first generation" to be able to tackle all of them.

But he stressed this could only be achieved if people, countries and continents worked together and did not retreat into nationalist self-interest.

Richard Baker, a Labour MSP, said of the Prime Minister's speech:

"This is exactly what we should have more of in Scotland. We have been focused on domestic policies and the debate over the constitution. What Gordon Brown did was give it an international context, showing how interdependent everything is."

This was the first time Mr Brown had taken such a "casual" approach to his delivery of a conference speech. At first, he gave the impression he was simply imitating David Cameron, the Conservative leader, who surprised the Tory conference in his first year as leader by speaking without notes or a lectern.

Whispered claims of "he's doing a Cameron" were heard around the hall as Mr Brown began his speech not from the lectern, but in front of those sitting on the stage as he spoke.

The Prime Minister's approach was less relaxed and appeared more rehearsed than Mr Cameron's, although one former aide later insisted that Mr Brown had only spent his flight from London preparing for the speech, rather than the "two weeks" he claimed Mr Cameron had spent writing his.

One side-effect of the new style of delivery was there were few gaps for applause, as Mr Brown continued to build his arguments almost without pause.

Labour delegates gave Mr Brown a routine, if not rapturous, two-minute standing ovation, which he received with his wife Sarah on the stage.

It was as if the audience had been encouraged and surprised by the style of the speech and intrigued by the content, but not energised or inspired.



When it was suggested this was an unusual style for the Prime Minister to adopt, Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary, agreed, but added: "Maybe it will become his style from now on."

As for the substance of the speech, Mr Brown has made more coruscating attacks on the SNP before, but this was the first time he has used a major speech to link the global challenges he wants to take on with the politics of nationalism.

He did not bait or berate Alex Salmond, but he did warn Labour's Scottish activists that they had to react to being in opposition by becoming the "frontline of defence", protecting the poor and the vulnerable from the policies of the SNP government.

He added: "We should stand up for the people of Scotland and for the young people of Scotland. We will be the front-line of defence for them against these SNP cuts, not just because they are wrong but because they are depriving our country of its best future."

The speech was measured and plainly delivered, with a wider, international scope than might have been expected.

It was when the Prime Minister moved on to global challenges that he became passionate about his mission to take social justice to all parts of the world, something he said could only be achieved with others.

He talked about the achievements of the G8 under British leadership, of the International Monetary Fund under British leadership and of the Bali climate-change talks, with Britain leading Europe to secure a deal on the environment.

"These were not Scottish-only policies, or English-only policies, or Welsh or Northern Irish-only policies," he said.

Mr Brown also explained his vision that "this generation should be the first" to eradicate diseases plaguing the Third World, establish free education for all and combat climate change.

These goals, he said, would only be achieved by countries, continents and governments working together.

He added: "This is an inter- dependent world. What sense would it make within these islands, as the SNP do, to separate Scotland from the rest of Britain and make it more difficult to travel and to trade? The Union enhances the influence of Scottish people and ideas."



The speech was also clearly not a Blair speech. In the passages on world poverty, for example, it contained some of the themes Mr Blair has used in the past but the argument, constantly harking back to Scottish nationalism, was very different.

The Prime Minister was also effusive in his praise of Wendy Alexander, who has endured a tough six months as Scottish Labour leader, and he claimed that she would go on to become Scotland's next First Minister.

Mr Brown also gave his full backing to the Scottish Constitutional Commission, the body set up by Ms Alexander to look into more powers for the Scottish Parliament.

Mr Brown was careful to stress his Fife background: "I am proud I attended the local school in Kirkcaldy, proud that I had the opportunity of the best healthcare when I was ill and I had the opportunity, because of a Labour government, not only to study at a great school but to go to university as well."

The Prime Minister said he wanted the same opportunities for all children, adding: "I believe in a Scotland where everyone has the chance to rise as far as their talents should take them."

THE PREMIER'S OLD SCHOOL COULD DO BETTER, SAY THE INSPECTORS

ITS motto may be "I will try my utmost" but Gordon Brown's former school needs to try harder, according to inspectors.

Attainment at Kirkcaldy High in Fife had already been judged too low, but a follow-up visit in November found that standards had dipped even further.

In 2006, an HMIE report revealed a school plagued with high staff turnover, unfilled vacancies, and a high teacher sickness rate.

This week's follow-up report says too little progress has made since then.

It said: "There had been no improvement, and in fact some decline, in levels of performance in external examinations.

"The school should continue to address the need for improvement in key areas, such as behaviour management and the quality and consistency of learning and teaching."

Former head Gwen Kinghorn retired last month before the inspector's findings were made public.

Lindsay Roy was brought in from Inverkeithing High to turn the school around.

In Inverkeithing High's most recent HMIE report last year, Mr Roy was praised as providing "strong leadership".

Ken Greer, Fife education director, admitted decisive action was required and that the council had acted swiftly.

He said: "Lindsay is one of Scotland's leading headteachers.

"Already there is evidence of improvements in staff morale, pupils' behaviour and the achievements of pupils at the first- and second-year stages."

Mr Roy said: "Collectively , we are determined to achieve the desired improvements by the time HMIE return to review progress."





The full article contains 1385 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:07:21
He added: "This is an inter- dependent world. What sense would it make within these islands, as the SNP do, to separate Scotland from the rest of Britain and make it more difficult to travel and to trade? The Union enhances the influence of Scottish people and ideas."

What drivel. The man is clearly deluded and suffering memory loss.

Some benefits of the Union.
1. Gold fire sale.
2. Pension theft.
3. Northern Rock.
4. Millennium Dome.
5. Nuclear power stations.
6. Cash for honours.
7. Shambolic immigration/asylum policies.
8. No European referendum as promised.
9. Illegal Iraqi war.
10. Trident replacement.
11. London Olympics.
12. Inadequately supplied troops
13. PFI/PPP debt for years.
14. Swearing allegiance to Britain by school kids. (Not mine!)
15. ID cards.
16. NHS computerisation shambles.
17. Child tax credit shambles.
18. Child Support Agency
19. Scottish Election shambles (Dougie Alexander).
20. Economy in meltdown.
21. 24 hour drinking. (Keep the peasants pie-eyed and they’ll vote for us, just like their dads did).
22. Dr David Kelly
23. Westminster expense cover up
24. "British Jobs for British workers."
25. Privatisation of air traffic control
26. Giving director of CBI a ministerial job...
27. Dungavel detention centre for children of asylum seekers
28. Failing to vote on, or offer alternative or amendments to, the Scottish budget
29. Voting to keep graduate endowment.
30. Collaboration with rendition/ torture.
31. 12,000 redundancies at the DWP.
32. Closing Remploy factories a cost of 1000s jobs for the disabled.
33. Millionaire's inheritance tax cut.
34. Tuition fees.
35. Means testing benefits for the old.
36. Annexed 6000 Square Miles of Scottish Territorial Waters
37. Continued Theft of Scottish Oil & Gas
38. Constitutional Review (oops Commission)
39. Fly British Flag from public buildings
40. Destruction of Scottish Fishing Industry

2

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:08:15
Some more benefits of the Union

41. 'Independent' Electoral Commission
42. Reduced funding for Scotland
43. Invest heavily in London infrastructure -e.g. High speed rail, Heathrow,
44. Taking credit for cutting interest rates then banks & b/societies raising mortgage rates.
45. Nepotism and cronyism on a grand scale.
46. Scottish Industry Forum
47. Massive closures of Scottish Post Offices
48. Lose BP Hydrogen Plant @ Peterhead
49. Catalogue of top rated Wendy you-tube videos.
50. Refuse to investigate death of Willie McRae.
51. Refuse to create an Independent Scottish Labour Party
52. Catch Phrases/Spin e.g.” Whiter than white, Purer than pure”, "McChattering Classes", "CyberNat" and "Ranting Bloggers"
53. 20% Scots in relative poverty and increasing- tinyurl.com/2klhdm
54. Massive election frauds in Birmingham and other places (judge described as being like "banana republic" corruption)
55. The £400 million over-run on the parliament building.
56. Tony Blair comparing the Scottish parliament to a parish council.
57. Dressing taxes up as Green taxes and not spending the proceeds on the environment
58. Hammering high profit oil companies with high corporation tax but not his friends in the higher profit financial sector
59. Back door stealth taxation.
60. Banning protest and free speech near Westminster and Whitehall.
3

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:09:23
Nemo me impune laccessit. Also sprach The Royal Scots.

Brown and NuLabour will continue to be punished but at what cost?

The PPB was dire, desperate and, let's admit it, dishonest.

Keir Hardie must be spinning in his grave.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:09:35
Some Heroes of the PEOPLE'S PARTY


1. Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon.
2. Tony Blair
3. David Blunkett.
4. John Prescott.
5. Lord Watson.
6. Peter Hain
7. Tessa Jowell.
8. Harriet Harman.
9. Lord Goldsmith.
10. Lord Levy.
11. Lord Foolkes.
12. Wendy Alexander.
13. Andy Kerr.
14. Michael Martin
15. Keith Vaz.
16. Geoffrey Robinson.
17. Stephen Byers
18. Alan Milburn
19. Lord Irvine.
20. Jack Cunningham.
21. Claire Short.
22. Paul Drayson.
23. John Reid.
24. Bernie Ecclestone.
25. Sir Gulam Noon.
26. Philip Anschutz.
27. Rod Aldridge.
28. Sir David Garrard.
29. Nigel Morris.
30. Prof Sir Christopher Evans.
31. Ruth Turner.
32. David Abrahams.
33. Imran Khand
34. Alan Johnson
35. Rob Brown getting lifted for breaking and entering to steal Nona's knickers.
36. Ron Davis getting confused on Clapham Common.
37. Cherie Blair, Carol Caplin, the con-man and her Bristol flats.
38. Henry McLeish
5

Truely English,

29/03/2008 00:14:54
Good on you, Prime Minister Gordon Brown we are all British share and promote the same culture, language and way of life and should be very proud of what this country has achieved.
6

BIG EYE,

Paisley 29/03/2008 00:16:07
What a sad apology for a Prime Minister?

Well seeing he was never elected to the post....and never will!
7

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:16:40
1. The UK is 2nd in the world in exported services and 7th in the world in exporting manufactured goods; exporting more in total than the likes of France, Italy and even Japan. Per capita, the UK exports more than Germany too.
2. So it can be seen that the UK is one of the most successful economies in the world.
3. An achievement all the more remarkable when considering that we were the strike-ridden and uncompetitive ‘sick man of Europe’ just 25 years ago.
4. The UK is one of the permanent five veto-powers on the UN’s powerful Security Council,
5. One of the ‘Big Four’ in the EU,
6. a leading member of the G8 group of major economies with the 2nd highest GDP per capita in the Group
7. The UK sits at the top tables of the OECD, OSCE, NATO, the Commonwealth, the Council of Europe, the World Trade Organisation, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, making the UK one of the most powerful and influential countries in the world.
8. With such global political and economic influence but only 1% of the global population, the UK is very clearly ‘punching above its weight’.
9. As well as the EU's strongest major economy (over the last ten years, GDP growth in the UK has consistently outpaced growth in the European Union and London has been Europe’s top business region for 17 years running) as well as its second largest, the UK is the primary link between the EU and the USA and the Union’s second largest net contributor, plus we also have its strongest military so we are clearly extremely vital to EU interests and its voice and influence in the world.
10. The UK is also the UN’s sixth largest contributor;
11. home of one of the world's principal cultures,
12. home of the world's financial capital which is also Europe’s richest region;
13. home of Europe’s largest stock exchange and one of the largest in the world;
8

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:17:03
14. the OECD noted that the UK has the least barriers to entrepreneurship and the third least barriers to trade and investment in the world;
15. is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe;
16. is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China);
17. In 2006, foreign investment in the UK totalled over $1trillion, the highest in the world after the USA;
18. the UK is the largest single destination globally for US investment and has attracted more US FDI than the combined totals of Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Ireland;
19. the UK is the most popular location for multinationals’ European Headquarters;
20. the UK is the second largest investor overseas with investments/acquisitions by UK companies almost quadrupling in the past ten years (in 2005, UK investment overseas totalled £750 billion);
21. the UK is one of the most productive places for innovation firms in the world,
22. ranking second only to the USA for the quality of its research base;
23. surveys have assessed that the UK has the top six universities in Europe and two of the top three globally;
24. the UK has won the third highest number of Nobel Prize winners in the world;
25. is sixth in the world for patents registered a year;
26. the World Bank ranks the UK first in Europe and sixth in the world to operate a business;
27. has the third largest number of companies in both the FT 500 and the Forbes 2000 lists of the world’s biggest companies after the US and Japan (and more than Germany and France combined);
28. the major UK companies account for the second highest market capitalisation in the world only bettered by the USA;
29. the UK's unemployment rate (using the internationally comparable “standardised” rate) is significantly lower than the European Union average;
30. the UK has one of the lowest government debt levels in the EU…
31. In Scotland, unemployment is at its lowest in 34 years.
32. In
9

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:17:21
Jimmy,

You are not wrong.

However, Salmond (the smarmy "economist") is a propagandist almost in the league of Tony B.Liar.

I can only hope that the Tories (for I am one) dress in red T-shirts with their candidates' names on and hand out bananas at the polling stations.

The greatest travesty at our ballot last May was the allowing of a ballot paper that proclaimed, as first CROSS, "Alec Salmond for First Minister".

10

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:19:48
Jimmy and Highland,

If you guys were fishermen and listed so much, you'd sink!
11

BIG EYE,

Paisley 29/03/2008 00:22:37
Just noticed someone mentioned Labour's PPB this evening.

Was this complete surrender or not?

Having failed to come up with a single reason to vote for them in 2008 we were treated to a history lesson about why people voted them decades ago.

Will it help them?

Doubt it, the Party of constant, discredited, self interest, up to their eyes in dubious acts, whether intentional or otherwise is not even a pale shadow of what went before!
12

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:22:40
10. Ba-dum-TISH!
13

Elizabeth I (1558-1603 AD),

edinburgh 29/03/2008 00:24:07
Well said Gordon, these Scottish Nose Pickers have no place in our Britain.
14

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:29:07
#11,

'Twas me. For a political party that tore up its past in 1997 to get elected and come out with this rot, clinging to the way it used to be, was truly sick-making.

Broon must have grown up in a funny sort of Manse. No morals, no ethics, no conscience.

#12, Cheers, pal!
15

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:32:21
Highland Mighty

If Britain is so powerful and influential why did we go to war on a lie? Why did most other countries not follow us?
16

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:35:43
#13,

Your namesake went to heaven unopened.

What is your point?
17

Castaway,

29/03/2008 00:37:24
#1 and #2 - Jimmy the Pie, well written but you missed out that we liberated the Iraqi people from that tyrant Saddam Hussien who did not have any WMD's.

Neither Gordon nor Wendy have had their leadership endorsed by the people via UK general election or a Scottish election.
18

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:40:16
Highland Mighty

If Britain is so powerful and influential why have most of our companies been allowed to be taken over by overseas companies?
19

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:40:24
Another update on this latest 'independence campaign'

After nearly 11 months of the SNP trying to provoke anger and resentment between Scots and the UK and/or England...

Only 0.5% of the population has bothered to read the SNP's much-publicised flagship White Paper on Independence.

Less than 0.0001% of the population has participated in the VERY heavily publicised 'National Conversation'. A recent lengthy plug on Radio 5 resulted in just 4 posts that day!

Less than 0.0001% have signed the Scottish Independence Convention's much-publicised worldwide petition for a referendum.

Of the petitions for referendums and independence on the No.10 website, less than 50 signatures have been gathered across all of them.

SO THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF ANY DEMAND FOR A REFERENDUM.

AND CERTAINLY NO SIGN OF THE "80% OF THE POPULATION DEMAND A REFERENDUM" REGULARLY CLAIMED BY THE NATIONALISTS!

On the latest poll, only 23% are in favour of independence but 76% are in favour of the UK in various forms. '23% for independence' is one of the lowest ratings in recent times.

70% of SNP voters at the last election believe the SNP won due to Labour's unpopularity rather than the SNP's percieved popularity.

The SNP's support and lead over Labour has declined in two consecutive polls and is now 4% lower than its peak in November.
20

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:41:46
#15

Good question. Maybe we'll get a War Crimes Tribunal, probably not.

NuLabour would not be in Government without the Scottish Vote.

Do not kid yourself for a minute that the STV will deliver Independence. The SNP front team has no discernible talent other than self-promotion. Not unlike the odious Bendy and her cohorts.
21

Castaway,

29/03/2008 00:44:46
How can being part of the Union make Scotland stronger when on the world stage an independent Scotland would have the option of being be a full member of the following:-
Scotland would 12-14 members of the EU parliament at present 7 being reduced to 6 in 2009.
Member of the Council of the European Union.
Member of the Council of Europe
Attend the European Council (referred to as a European Summit).
The President of the Council of the European Union on a rotating basis (To be changed as per the Lisbon Treaty).
Member of NATO
Member of the IMF
Member of the ITU
Member of the WTO
Member of the Commonwealth.
Member of the Olympic movement.
Member of FIFA with no threat of one fooball team representing the UK.
A seat at the UN. etc etc

In the EU - 11 of the 27 member countries have population of less than 5.5 million and in Europe 22 countries have a population of less than 5.5 million out of 47 countries.

Out of 194 countries in the UN - 81 have a population less than 5.5 million.

Scotland’s Energy Reserves
Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves
Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU
Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36 500MW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14 000MW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7 500MW)
22

john calvin,

scotland 29/03/2008 00:44:57
Although I am no supporter of Brown, but on this issue he is right. Its his true cause. #1, what about decades of peace and prosperity, a neighbour in England subsidising our lives and offering employment to any Scot wanting to make his way in life, who in turn pays his tax, which then funds the aforementioned subsidy. So you see, you narrow minded idiot that we really pay our own way at the end of the day, thank to an open Uk and an open mind, and leaving the bitterness of the past in the past. I am 100% Scots, and now live in the USA. If Salmond and his ilk ever get their way, I will never be living there again, as it will be a Socialist state dependent on others far more than we were ever dependent on the English. We deserve better more progressive leadership.
23

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:47:44
It's interesting that the usual suspects are missing.

Must be a Full Moon! But the cloud is too low to check.
24

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 00:48:59
18. I refer you to:

The UK is the leading destination for inward investment into Europe and is second only to the USA globally (substantially more is annually invested in the UK than even China).

In 2006, foreign investment in the UK totalled over $1trillion, the highest in the world after the USA.

2006 was the only year since 1991 where foreign takeovers of UK companies outstripped UK takeovers of foreign companies.

The UK is the second largest investor overseas with investments/acquisitions by UK companies almost quadrupling in the past ten years (in 2005, UK investment overseas totalled £750 billion).

The UK has the third largest number of companies in both the FT 500 and the Forbes 2000 lists of the world’s biggest companies after the US and Japan (and more than Germany and France combined).

The major UK companies account for the second highest market capitalisation in the world only bettered by the USA.
25

Resolutions,

29/03/2008 00:52:05
So your're not impressed by Comrade Brrooon then folks?

Cannot say that much of an impression here.

Also Holyrood is a fixed term Parliament which GB does not seem to realise - next election 2011 so we know EXACTLY when!(After Westminster)

Wendy self=assessment 10/10! Anyone knows that's dodgy in education which they seem to think they are 'experts' on.

Talent? JR? What talent?
26

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:53:26
#24

Nearly all utility companies are foreign owned. How many foreign utility companies are owned by British companies?? Who owns nearly all the UK airports??
Who owns most of Scotland's salmon industry?? Where did the British motor industry go???
Mind you Northern Rock is British owned!!
27

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:54:19
#24,

Aye, we've turned Money Laundering into a "Fine Art".

Inwardly investing the Proceeds of Crime from Eastern Europe.

Britain is a morally bankrupt country.

Blair's Legacy.
28

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 00:56:18
#27 JR
Excellent comment
29

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 00:58:00
#26.

And how, exactly, are you planning to afford the divorce?
30

Jimmy the Pie,

29/03/2008 01:01:19
#29

Easy. Look at Norway - no trident subs, illegal wars and a successful oil industry. Ireland manages to scrape by.
Time for change - big change
31

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:03:48
21. So you admit that by leaving the UK, Scotland would lose its place in the decision-making processes of the UN, EU, WTO, OSCE, IMF, NATO, relegating itself to mere member along with hundreds of others?

You seriously cannot compare an independent Scotland's global influence with that currently enjoyed by the UK!!

The UN is run by the Security Council of which the UK is one of the veto-holding 'Permanent 5'.

The EU is run by the 'Big Four' of which the UK is one.

The UK is No.2 in NATO.

The UK is a 'board member' of both the IMF and World Bank.

The UK is rated by the World Bank as the fourth most influential country in the world due to its place at the top tables of many of the major international organisations. Not bad for a place with 1% of the world's population.

For Scotland to leave the UK in search of its 'own voice' is tantamount to leaving the main act on stage and taking a seat in the middle of the audience!

What is Ireland's stand on Darfur? What is Norway's stand on drug-eradication in Afghanistan and Columbia? (I bet you have to look these up!)
32

Senga Jean,

Scotland 29/03/2008 01:03:58
Scotland would be so much better Independent and a member of the World WIDE community. Where are the barriers in Europe that Brown lies about. Does he not realise we now travel the world.
33

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:04:43
"This was the first time he has used a major speech to link the global challenges he wants to take on with the politics of nationalism."

Hands up who thinks an independent Scottish government would have sent the young men and women of our armed forces into an illegal war with Iraq.
34

J R Hartley-Fly,

Fishing 29/03/2008 01:06:43
I am abandoning tonight's troll hunt.

Night, night.
35

Traquir,

Alba 29/03/2008 01:08:01
7 Highland Mighty

We get your points bigger is better - I look forward to Britain's enthusiastic
adoption of the Euro and further integration into the yet bigger economy
that is Europe.

I bet you've got a really big car also, and I am sure you know what
they say about people with big cars :)

In the meantime Scotland would like to join the league of independent
and prosperous small nations, despite how appealing of course
it is to get the scrumptious breadcrumbs that fall from the UKs
top tables.

36

Bob10,

29/03/2008 01:11:49
1,2&4. Jimmy the Pie.

You're skipping your meds again!!!
37

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:11:50
31 Highland Mighty: "What is Ireland's stand on Darfur? What is Norway's stand on drug-eradication in Afghanistan and Columbia? (I bet you have to look these up!)"

What is the UK New Labour government's stand on illegal invasions of foreign countries? (I bet you don't have to look it up).
38

ratzo,

29/03/2008 01:14:14
This is so boring.

unquestionably it is the case that narrow minded nationalism must be rejected.

That is precisely what Brown's British nationalism IS.

NEXT!
39

Castaway,

29/03/2008 01:17:55
#31 - Rt Hon Jack Straw MP,July 2006
Historically, England called the shots to achieve a union because the union was seen as a way, amongst others things, of amplifying England’s power worldwide. And the reverse would certainly be true. A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, but especially not England. Our voting power in the European Union would diminish. We’d slip down in the world league GDP tables. Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN Security Council.
40

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:19:27

Following the reasoning of some unionist posters on here, the constituent parts of the Soviet empire were misguided to seek their independence. After all, none of them is individually as "strong" as the USSR was.

Wonder what the populations of those countries would say if you suggested handing power back to Moscow?
41

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:19:47
37. Yawn. That would mean something if everyone outside the SNP was in favour of Iraq.

Salmond voted against intervening in Kosovo and Sierra Leone, which is spineless beyond belief as both operations stopped horrific wars.

Mind you, what do you expect from a fat former-bank clerk?
42

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:21:08
40. So you are now equating the UK to the Soviet Union???

Grow up!

LOL!
43

Traquir,

29/03/2008 01:26:13
21 Castaway

Excellent post and the key is that overall we would have more influence
in the bodies you mentioned as opposed to now where the Scottish
interest is completely obliterated by British interests which have totally
different aspirations e.g. Ted Heath's sacrifice of Scotland's fishing
industry as it was insignificant from a British perspective yet
it is very material from a Scottish perspective; Blair's decision
to wage an illegal war which meets the imperialist
aspirations of Britain, but is totally in conflict with Scotland's
aspirations.


44

Colin P,

please, some sanity!! 29/03/2008 01:33:50
There's a new guy at work. He's from Bournemouth, apparently. He hates "the Jocks", the French, "the Eyeties", "the Krauts" the blacks, the Jews, the Yanks..etc.etc

I don't feel so bad wanting Scotland to be free of these @ssholes.
45

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:36:05
43. So no other country suffered cutbacks in its fishing fleet as a result of EU quotas? Just Scotland?
46

Traquir,

Alba 29/03/2008 01:43:38
45 Highland Mighty, 29/03/2008 01:36:05
"43. So no other country suffered cutbacks in its fishing fleet as a result of EU quotas? Just Scotland?"

None suffered so much Thanks for your concern.
47

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 01:44:27
42 Highland Mighty

Sorry you find the illegal destruction of Iraq so boring. I realise it was all supposed to be over by Christmas, but these things have a habit of running away with you.

The point I was making is that the relative strength of the UK is irrelevant (or worse) when the Westminster Government uses that strength in a morally repugnant way, as it frequently does. By contrast, many smaller, independent nations - though materially and militarily less powerful - have frequently used their influence for good, especially in global affairs.

I strongly believe that an independent Scottish government would care less about pushing its weight around on the international stage than it would about genuinely promoting those same "Scots values" which Gordon Brown talked about.

As for your comment about the Soviet Union, may I suggest that you a) Re-read the post and b) Actually answer the question.

The point about analogies isn't to suggest that the things being compared are identical, but that there are similarities which can illuminate analysis and discussion. I have no doubt that the "we're more powerful together" argument was used by supporters of the USSR, for exactly the same reasons you use the argument in relation to the UK.
48

Canada,

Canada 29/03/2008 01:50:17
Yawn,
Getting late here. I'm off to bed with a Broons' book. Makes more sense than Gordon.
49

Colin P,

29/03/2008 01:53:59
47 Well said!!

Why should Scotland worry about issues that don't concern it?
Our first obligation is to our own country and it's people. Then we can worry about foreign aid and diplomatic relations.
Then we can be an objective observer on the international stage. The world isn't depending on Scotland, it will wait for our decisions as it has with many other small and free nations in the past few years.
50

blueguru,

US 29/03/2008 01:54:33
Broon's arguments against the SNP could be quite easily extended to the UK as a whole. If nationalism does put up barriers, then let's abolish the UK too and become part of some great World government. More tripe than you could find in a butcher's shop! The SNP wants to remove barriers - the artificial barriers between Scotland and the rest of the World erected by Westminster. Scotland has much to offer - just look at Norway, for example - but her contribution is currently stifled by the Broon Shirts.
51

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 01:54:58
Highland Mighty.

I've said on other threads that your genius is without parallel, in this or any other universe. Once again you have proved me correct!!!

Big is beautiful?: USSR, USA?
Loss of influence?: a seat at the UN, EU, WTO etc. etc?

Your wisdom obviously originates from the GRAB Nebula: home of a certain G. Brown.
52

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 01:57:07
47. If you aren't interested in having any influence in regional/world affairs, please stop harping on about having "our own voice".

Again, your attempt to liken the UK and the USSR is nonsensical in every context.
53

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:04:10
52 It's not all about having a say on the world stage. Have a look a countries with similar populations to Scotland. How influential are they?

Who really cares how much influence we have?? That's not what it's all about!
When will you plastic englanders realise this?
54

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:05:07
49. "it will wait for our decisions as it has with many other small and free nations in the past few years."

Are you seriously suggesting that the world will even care what an independent Scotland thinks?

The rules and strategies of regional/world economy, commerce, defence and security are made by a handful of the 'big' countries, of which the UK is one.

An independent Scotland of just 5m people will just have to go along with the decisions, having no influence in how they were made.

As I have already said, an independent Scotland will have its own voice...but it will be barely audible.
55

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 02:06:58
There is a clear difference between Scottish civic nationalism which is about normal national powers for everyone who lives here and Britain's imperialist nationalism which is about deusions of grandeur and attempting to tell other countries what to do.

I know which one I prefer.

Britnats should imagine if they would look kindly on a plan for the UK to join the US. If they can think of problems with such an alliance they can understand the point of Scottish home rule.
56

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:08:54
53. The other small countries have no influence. See post 54.

And, again, if you don't really care about having a voice amongst this increasing internationalisation and globalisation, as you claim, then stop listing 'having our own voice' as an advantage of independence.

It isn't!!
57

Traquir,

Alba 29/03/2008 02:09:03
52 Highland Mighty, 29/03/2008 01:57:07
'47. If you aren't interested in having any influence in regional/world affairs, please stop harping on about having "our own voice".'


Sorry, but I think you are missing the point here, it is not about having
"any influence" it is about Scotland having her own influence not the
influence of some British representation on our behalf. We have seen
how they have impacted our influence very detrimentally on many
issues e.g. fishing, wars and of course their is oil - I assume you have
had a chance to read the McCrone report which deliberately
squashed any potential Scottish influence. Just in case you have not
had a chance to avail yourself of this treachery here is
a link for you :
http://www.snpyouth.org/documents/mccronereport.pdf

Can you honestly say that something like the McCrone report maximized
Scotland's influence ?




58

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:12:08
55. Gah! How about the UK joining the EU?!

Why use the UK joining the USA as an analogy when we are already joining a FAR larger European Union?!

LOL!

And give this 'Britnat imperialism' bilge a rest as it is meaningless nonsense!
59

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 02:13:27
The only narrow nationalism is Britain's delusional version. Scotland want to be equal with other countries, Brown's Britain thinks its better than other countries, but it really isn't.

It's clear that neither Labour or Lib Dems support the Claim of Right for Scotland any more.
60

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:19:00
57 And back it goes to those tired claims about McCrone; a report written before a drop of oil had even made it ashore and whose estimates had no relationship to reality.

Anyone who quotes McCrone as proof of any ongoing conspiracy against Scotland then has to believe that conspiracy also includes consecutive UK governments of both parties, the EU, OPEC, WTO, the multinational oil companies and the international oil markets are also involved!

ALL these governments, international organisations, multinational corporations and international markets colluding together to control nationalism in Scotland!

Get a grip of yourself.
61

Traquir,

Alba 29/03/2008 02:19:39
54 Highland Mighty

"An independent Scotland of just 5m people will just have to go along with the decisions, having no influence in how they were made."

Out of 194 countries in the UN - 81 have a population less than 5.5 million.

Congratulations you have managed to insult ~40% of the countries
in the World, or is your bile directed specifically at Scotland ?
I am sure Scotland would be proud to be compared with 40% of
similar sized or smaller countries rather than being subsumed in some
wannabe world power that is relatively tiny compared with the likes
of the true powers such as Russia, USA, China, India & Japan. When
Scotland leaves this Union what is left of Britain will be of
comparable size to Columbia, Tanzania & the Ukraine so perhaps
it should start to build relationships with their peers rather than
trying to play with the big boys ?


62

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 29/03/2008 02:22:13
52 Highland Mighty: 'If you aren't interested in having any influence in regional/world affairs, please stop harping on about having "our own voice"... Again, your attempt to liken the UK and the USSR is nonsensical in every context.'

You're clearly not interested in engaging with the points raised, which is a pity because it holds down the level of debate.





63

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:24:39
54
Scotland will inevitably be an equal member if the EU.

It will have it's voice there.

In the meantime, Scotland should have it's own identity.
Scotland is different from England, Wales and N Ireland.
It's laws are different, it's education system is different.
What is your problem with Scotland being an independent nation??
64

Traquir,

Alba 29/03/2008 02:26:54
60 Highland Mighty
"57 And back it goes to those tired claims about McCrone; a report written before a drop of oil had even made it ashore and whose estimates had no relationship to reality."

You are correct the "estimates had no relationship to reality" , in fact
the estimates were grossly underestimated. Even with the small
estimates mentioned in the report the British Government
determined that Scotland's Oil resources would
"transform Scotland into a country with a substantial and chronic surplus".
Given the actual figures were several magnitudes beyond this
I wonder how the British Government would describe
Scotland's influence ?

Had the paper not been released via the 30 year rule then I am
sure you and your Unionist buddies would indeed have referred
to this as a " conspiracy", but given it is in black and white it is
simply reality.



65

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:28:13
61. LOL!

I'm going to bed!
66

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:29:58
65
We accept your surrender
67

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:32:50
Scotland will only play an major role in the 21st century if it becomes an indpendent state.
For 300 years it has played second fiddle to England, in what was supposed to be a union of equals. It is now time to move forward and dissolve the union between Scotland and England and have two seperate and identifiable Kingdoms.
The pretence that the United Kingdom is an important force in the world is an illusion
68

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:32:58
The facts remain....we must ALL do our part to make Scotland a solid, reliable, healthy independent nation.

If you feel you cannot accomplish this, then leave..whether it be Scotland, or these pages.
I support Scotland, a free nation in the world of free nations.
Hokey? maybe, but that's how independence begins!

Alba gu brath
69

,

29/03/2008 02:35:24
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
70

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:35:57
#676 Edward

Nice apology for a thousand years of conquest!

;-) lol
71

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/03/2008 02:36:42
Ms Alexander said she was not a Gordon Brown puppet

During the web chat, driven by questions from BBC viewers, listeners and online users, she was asked to score herself out of 10 for her performance since being elected leader unopposed in September last year.

"Rising all the time, I think is the answer," said Ms Alexander, adding: "Ten out of 10, 10 out of 10."

And Ms Alexander also dismissed claims of arrogance against Labour politicians and said her party's fight back was under way.

She added: "Frankly, as I look across the other benches in the parliament, I don't think the arrogance is on our side.

"I think that what people are looking for are politicians who are willing to listen, I think you will see this week that conference is listening and learning."

Aye right! It's obvious that Labour no longer believe in the claim of right and don't want Scots to decide their own future.

Game set and match to SNP.
72

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:37:03
'The Prime Minister delivered a stinging criticism of the SNP, and warned that Scots would only be able to make a difference to global challenges if they remained part of Britain'
This is proof, if proof were ever needed that Gordon Brown is dillusional! He is under the illusion that there would still be a 'Britain' or a 'United Kingdom' if Scotland became an Independent Kingdom. What he fails to grasp, like so many unionists, is that Scotland is one half of the United Kingdom. With Scotland becoming Independent, it in effect dissolves the Union and does away with the United Kingdom.It simply would not exist!
73

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:39:20
#70 Colin P
'a thousand years of conquest' ??
What thousand years are you on about
The United Kingdom has only existed for 300 years, or were you not aware of that?
74

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:39:45
69 I thought you were going to bed!

I never said anything about 80% of Scotland want a referendum. Typical opposition...make up things as you go along.
The English answer to the Scottish Oil Reserve question is "It's in UK waters, why is this an issue?"

The more you rant, the stronger the movement becomes.
75

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:41:21
73
England has been invading Scotland for over 1000 years, or were you not aware of that?

Face facts, Scotland is an older nation than England. Check with the Vatican on that, as they seem to be the world's historians.
76

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 29/03/2008 02:44:32
"Brown to Scotland: Think big and reject narrow nationalism"

This from the man who brought us the illegal war in Iraq. Has he no conscience or shame?
77

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:44:54
67. Get a grip. A country of 5m having 'major influence'? Not in a Europe of 500m people and not in a world of 6bn.

The UK is one of the world's top economies, one of the world's top political players (UNSC, EU Big Four, WTO, IMF, World Bank, OSCE, Commonwealth etc.) and also one of the big military forces, both independently and as part of NATO.

It is this triumvirate of economic/political/military power that gives the UK a very powerful voice in the world.

To deny all this is laughable and highlights the petty nature of the nationalist anti-UK attitude.

And now I AM off to bed.
78

Edward,

29/03/2008 02:45:46
#75 Colin P
I knew Scotland was an older nation state than England, just wasnt sure about the context agains the age of the UK. Thanks for clarifying
79

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 02:46:20
Highland Mighty.

Does ridicule frighten you?

Please respond with your supra-galactic wisdom to my #51.

We await with baited breath.
80

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:47:26
Jeez, here come the Wallace rants again.....ffs

That fecking Gibson has got a lot to answer for!
81

clochoderic,

dougie`s dodgy district 29/03/2008 02:48:30
For once the Scotsman goes right ahead - well said all of you.
Even you, Slightly Blighty.
82

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/03/2008 02:50:36
Highland Mighty.

#79. Or, perhaps, ridicule confuses you. Maybe your interpretive abilities are lacking, you condescending troll.
83

Highland Mighty,

29/03/2008 02:51:23
Post 51 is just gibberish. There is nothing there to respond to.

For sterters, you seem to suggest the USA does not benefit from its size and wealth.

Look up 'psychosis' and maybe find an online test as well.

Night, night.

LOL!
84

Colin P,

29/03/2008 02:51:37
78
Scotland was an independent state until 1707 when the Acts of Union, despite widespread protest across Scotland,[9][10] resulted in a union with the Kingdom of England to create the Kingdom of Great Britain

If this is hard for you to deal with, I suggest a week or two of Teletubbies.
85