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Labour kills off plan for referendum before 2011 elections

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Published Date: 05 March 2009
A REFERENDUM on Scottish independence appeared all but dead last night after the Labour Party announced it would oppose the SNP's plans for the rest of this parliament.
In an interview with The Scotsman, Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, said the economic crisis had hardened his previously cautious approach to the Scottish Government's proposals for a referendum.

He admitted he had taken a more flexible approach to the issue in the past, but he now believed strongly that the vote should be opposed.

"There are no circumstances in which I would support the bill they have published," he said.

A source close to Mr Gray said this meant Labour would now oppose a referendum for the last two years of this parliamentary term, and probably beyond that as well.

With the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives equally adamant they will oppose the SNP's referendum plans, it appeared last night that the prospects of an independence poll this side of the next Holyrood election have effectively disappeared.

Labour's approach to a referendum has been in a state of confusion ever since Wendy Alexander's decision to back one a year ago.

The then leader of the Labour group at Holyrood declared "bring it on", insisting she was not frightened of a plebiscite and calling on the SNP to hold it as soon as possible.

After that surprise intervention, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, distanced himself from Ms Alexander and refused to back her position. She was then forced to retreat after her MSPs decided they could not back a referendum.

The result within the Scottish Labour Party was a position of cautious opposition to a vote on independence, with Mr Gray admitting he would consider backing a plebiscite if the SNP came up with a different proposition for the question and the timing.

However, in his interview with The Scotsman ahead of his party's Scottish conference that starts tomorrow in Dundee, Mr Gray sought to draw a line under the confusion of the Alexander leadership.

He said the economic crisis had convinced him a referendum would be a bad idea and had hardened his opposition to it.

Mr Gray said: "I have said in the past that if they came forward with a referendum proposal with a more straightforward question, we would have to look at it.

"But, I have to say, since then, the economic circumstances would say to me this really would be an enormous distraction at a time when politics has to serve the requirements of getting us through the recession."

Asked if this made him more opposed to the referendum than he had been in the past, he replied: "Yes. Independence is something I oppose because I think it would be bad for Scotland and the Scottish people; therefore I don't feel obliged to argue for a referendum.

"The economic conditions have hardened my view on it, because there are far more important things going on."

And he added: "There are no circumstances in which I would support the bill they have published."

A senior Labour source said that, although Mr Brown had not been approached for his specific approval of this policy, Mr Gray knew he had the Prime Minister's backing on the issue. "Iain didn't need to run it past Gordon – he knows what his view is," the source said.

Mr Gray's decision to move strongly away from a referendum follows a similar move by Tavish Scott, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader. He said last week he would not support either a straight yes-no question on independence or a multiple-choice referendum that included more powers for the Scottish Parliament. "We will not support a referendum which could let independence in through the back door," he said.

Yesterday, a spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives said: "We will not support the referendum plans. It is not an issue we should be talking about. It's a waste of time."

All three opposition parties are expected to unite today to vote through a Liberal Democrat amendment calling on the Scottish Government to abandon its referendum plans and concentrate on the economy.

That vote, if passed, will not bind the Scottish Government to anything, but it will be important symbolically in showing the unity of the unionist parties against an independence poll.

The vote on the SNP's referendum bill may be a year away and a lot could change in that time: one or more of the opposition parties could alter its policy, either through its membership or through a new leader, and the Scottish Government may change its plans significantly.

However, if none of these takes place, it is difficult to see where the Nationalists will get the support they need.

Alex Salmond, the First Minister, has appointed Mike Russell to take charge of this issue and he has the job of trying to secure a parliamentary majority for the bill.

He said last weekend he believed there was a parliamentary majority for a referendum but, with all the unionist parties taking an increasingly tough line against one, it is difficult to see where the support will come from.

Mr Russell also appealed to his opponents to allow a free vote on the issue, but this has been rejected by them.

So, unless the Scottish Government can come up with a completely different strategy, or manage to persuade one of the other parties to change sides, it looks as if the referendum bill will be defeated when it comes before parliament next year.

Mr Gray also insisted in his interview that there was no cross-over or confusion between his role and that of Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary.

Mr Gray was elected leader of the Labour group in the Scottish Parliament last summer, but he was backed by a range of individuals and groups from the party, giving him a much wider remit than simply looking after the interests of MSPs.

But with an active and vocal Scottish Secretary in London, there has been some confusion as to where Mr Gray's role ends and Mr Murphy's starts.

Mr Gray said: "I don't think it's confusing at all. I think if you look at the last six months, I think you would find that, far from being confusing, it has been extremely effective."

Mr Gray said he would not judge his own performance as leader,

but he did believe he had got the better of Mr Salmond at First Minister's Questions.

"FMQs I enjoy," he said "I think I have shown I am well capable of putting the First Minister on the spot and forcing him not only to have to defend himself with some difficulty but, on a number of issues I have raised, he has ended up reversing his position, for example local income tax."

He added: "I have read in the press that he likes to take a presidential approach to the First Minister's post and I think that has been demonstrated sometimes in FMQs – I think that shows when one sometimes feels he is not as on top of the detail as he might be."

Hamish Macdonell: Labour decision pulls the rug out from under the Nationalists and could leave two-year vacuum

ALEX Salmond's administration has axed bridge tolls, saved casualty departments and ended the graduate endowment for students.

But as far as Nationalists are concerned, there was only ever going to be one barometer of SNP success in government – and that was independence.

The decision by Iain Gray, the Scottish Labour leader, to effectively rule out any support from his party for a referendum on independence means it is now extremely unlikely the SNP bill on a referendum will get past its first stage in the parliament.

All three opposition parties are united on the issue now. They do not believe the referendum should be an issue "at this time" – and by that they mean in the course of this parliament. It is impossible to be absolutely categoric on this issue and declare the referendum is absolutely dead, because both Labour and the Liberal Democrats have changed their positions in the past.

Just last, year Tavish Scott, the Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, said he was not "intuitively against" a referendum, but now he is.

Last year, Wendy Alexander, then the Scottish Labour leader, declared: "Bring it on," and called for an immediate referendum.

But barring a major reversal from one of the main Unionist parties, it is difficult – if not impossible – to see from where the SNP is going to get its support.

So with what does this leave us?

One of the biggest legacies is the significant hole this leaves in the SNP programme for government.

The Nationalists published their referendum bill in draft form in 2007 and started the National Conversation to promote their case for independence. But without the possibility of actual legislation getting through the parliament at the end of the process, this will now appear to be something of an empty exercise.

In parliamentary terms, this will also be significant. The SNP has already dropped its plans for a local income tax, it has a fight on its hands over its alcohol crackdown and it now appears its referendum bill will not get past its first half-day in the parliament.

Taken together, that leaves a distinct lack of legislative progress for the final two years of the parliament.

Indeed, it could be argued we are now in a very long election campaign, with little to fight over in the chamber and everything now focused on 2011.

If nothing else, the fact that proper, ground-breaking legislation has ground to a halt after just two years of a parliamentary term is hardly a good recommendation for minority government.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 05 March 2009 1:49 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

04/03/2009 23:20:28
Why should taxpayers money be wasted on a Salmond ego trip?

It is about time the SNP stopped bleating and realised that they have to accept the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament.

Clearly it looks like a majority of MSP's will vote against it.

Just like the hilarious Scottish Futures Trust and the LIT, the referendum is as dead as a dodo.
2

tam-the-bam,

Canada 05/03/2009 00:12:31
Yes #1

power hungry wana be's

if there was ever a time to be a united land then this is it
these doe heads are only interested in being in control.....same age old BS that Hitler wanted

they dont have your interests at heart....only their own interests....what a load of claptrap....how did these morons ever get to power anyway ?

they're not remotely interested in independence apart from the fact that it gives them complete control over you.....its all about power.......william wallace was about the people.....these sickening people are about themselves.
3

Forward not Back,

05/03/2009 00:12:32
If Salmond is serious, he should turn it into a confidence vote.

I'm willing to bet that he won't.
4

tam-the-bam,

Canada 05/03/2009 00:18:26
Salmond.....how on earth did this twit ever get the vote ?
was it a sympathy vote ?

NOT someone the people would want to represent them on the world stage

the poor man lacks charisma like petrol lacks lead

get someone the people would follow no matter what....get rid of this bafoon
5

Fifi la Bonbon,

05/03/2009 00:25:02
Well that's this sorted.

Now nothing in the SNP election manifesto is going to be delivered.

Ar least they could put all their efforts into turning the Scottish Futures Trust into the Scottish Now Trust. They're not doing anything else except going to Burns Suppers in Canada and the like, so at least they could build a few schools.
6

FTH22inarow,

05/03/2009 00:34:30
As long as you can keep religion away from politics in Scotland I would be delighted to vote for independance, but I fear the Church of Rome, and Presbeterians destroy the argument
7

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 00:34:35
#2 & 4, Sam the Bam.

Begone!!!

On the point, the Unionist Alliance will rue its decision to thwart a Referendum.

Fear oozes from their every pore. People don't like he smell of fear.
8

,

05/03/2009 00:34:49
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9

McGubbligan,

OZ 05/03/2009 00:35:50
Sorry "Breathes etc."
10

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 00:44:56
in one stroke iain gray reduces labours chances in the next holyrood election! yet another own goal! the tories will be in power in westminster 2011 and we'll be in a depression! who you going to call? iain gray and the labour party?
11

Puling Prince Roman,

... headinbottom 05/03/2009 00:45:00
BRING IT ON!!!!! naw dinnae ah'm feart...
12

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/03/2009 00:47:09
2. Transcript of exchanges on Newsnight Scotland (6th May 2008) where Wendy Alexander specifically stated that she had the endorsement of Gordon Brown for her support for a referendum:

GORDON BREWER : The question I asked you. Is Gordon Brown endorsing your decision to call for a Referendum?

WENDY ALEXANDER MSP :Yes.

GORDON BREWER : He is endorsing it and he has told you that.

WENDY ALEXANDER MSP : Yes.

GORDON BREWER : So any suggestions that you bounced him into this are wrong.

WENDY ALEXANDER MSP : Yes. They're wrong. I am not asking Westminster to deal with this issue, I am saying that in Scotland the SNP are saying they don't want to deal with this issue and we are saying we would like the issue dealt with.


Lol
13

,

05/03/2009 00:47:29
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14

SHANGHAI SCOT,

SHANGHAI 05/03/2009 00:49:14
Have a look at Brian Taylors blog on the BBC Scotland website, a different take.
15

SkeptikScot,

05/03/2009 00:50:01
There is so much uncertainty at the moment it might be for the best. This slump is looking like it doesn't have a bottom, the coming years could be v rough.

16

Nevsky;,

Moscow 05/03/2009 00:56:29
The UK at all costs before Scottish democracy....the unionist way!

We see now the lengths unionists will go to regarding the union..they will betray the democratic right of the Scottish people to vote on Scotland's future!





17

FerryPort,

05/03/2009 01:01:33
Too scared to allow the Scottish people their say? Pathetic.
18

,

05/03/2009 01:09:14
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19

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 01:09:32
Do not fret fellow Nats....all is going to plan..HE HE
20

,

05/03/2009 01:20:15
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21

Vaward,

05/03/2009 01:21:45
#27

Isn't that the point of having a Scottish Parliament?
22

,

05/03/2009 01:23:58
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23

Edward,

05/03/2009 01:26:30
Its obvious Ian Grey is being told what to say, after all who in their right mind would deny he people a say and expect to survive politically!
Or is the Scottish people that stupid to actually go along with being dictated to by Labour?
24

Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 05/03/2009 01:29:58
#30. Yes but it has no fiscal power. We want the responsibility in raising our own tax revenues and spending it on things that are relevant to Scotland.
25

Vaward,

05/03/2009 01:32:01
#25

Salem

If you were so confident of independence, you wouldn't be calling Cameron 'an upper class twit'.

26

,

05/03/2009 01:34:25
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27

Vaward,

05/03/2009 01:36:23
Dark, all the Unionists have to do is offer more devolved power. If you really look at the balance of power in Scotland, then independence is a pipe dream.

28

karin.m,

05/03/2009 01:49:20
ooo gambler gray is banking on people not caring about independence because of the recession.

80 percent of people in scotland want a referendum on independence to decide the matter once and for all. Is gray saying that he expects the recession to last longer than the life of the current parliament. This appears to be at odds with his boss who thinks it will be over by the summer.

I thought broon had saved the world?

perhaps gray could tell us how long he thinks the recession will last?
29

karin.m,

05/03/2009 01:50:49
the only way to get scotland out of recession is to have more power over the economy the only way to do this properly is independence for our parliament.
30

,

05/03/2009 01:57:16
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31

,

05/03/2009 01:57:45
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32

TheScotsman,

Scottish Borders 05/03/2009 02:04:13
Scottish Labour, Conservatives & Lib Dems are really showing their feeble grasp on politics in Scotland. If they really had their fingers on the pulse of the country they would welcome the referendum with open arms.
Why? Because the Scots do not have the stomach for Independence, and would return a resounding NO to the Nats.
The simple fact is that there are basically two types of SNP voters;

1. True Nats who have always believed that Independence is best for Scotland.

2. Protest Nats who are sick of the complacent, sleaze ridden Scottish Labour.

Unfortunately for the SNP, the majority are protest Nats who enjoy seeing Scottish Labour in opposition, but do not really believe in the SNP's main policy.
33

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 02:04:16
39 karin

Thats far too inteligent a post!!

Dont you know its "Keep the Scottish people under Labore day"...........lol
34

Edward,

05/03/2009 02:05:53
Independence NOW!
Lets get rid of these jokers that will deny our democratic right to state what we want
Im fed up listening to the utter rubbish that comes form a party that claims to represent the people.The reality is they are only representing themselve and the perpetuation of the Labour time servers who pocket the tax payers earnings to line there own nest
35

,

05/03/2009 02:17:09
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36

biggy shackleton,

TASMANIA 05/03/2009 02:19:28
While it's disappointing that democracy looks set to be stifled over this matter, I am still filled with hope that the most popular country in the country can get a more meaningful outcome at the end of the day.

Or to put it another way, thank god I no-one here gives a hoot aboot Scottish politics.
37

TheScotsman,

Scottish Borders 05/03/2009 02:28:04
#1 is a professional troll that sits by its computer every night waiting to get the first post in.
Stop taking the bait and it will eventually stop posting.
38

,

05/03/2009 02:29:28
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39

biggy shackleton,

TASMANIA 05/03/2009 02:43:17
#1 This response reflects the kind of superficial way of looking at things that is endemic in Scotland.

It reflects an approach to life that is specifically designed to sap the confidence of the majority for the benefit of the minority.
40

Thomas1,

// 05/03/2009 03:11:53
Now UK labour can concentrate on losing the next GE,
i wonder who will win the next Scottish election?
41

karin.m,

05/03/2009 03:47:09
dont you just love the unionist wishful thinking that the papers print.

the decision on wether or not we are having a referendum will be decided only by the scottish people not by the political parties and that includes the snp.

the snp want to give people a choice the other parties dont.

labour the lib dems and the tories tell people think about what we want

the snp say think about what YOU want.

see the difference.
42

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 05/03/2009 04:07:27
#46

Your first paragraph doesn't make sense.

Your second paparagraph, "Or to put it another way, thank god I no-one here [Tasmania] gives a hoot aboot Scottish politics."

So what's your point in posting?
43

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 04:12:26
expect to see in labours next holyrood election manifesto the promise of a referendum! if you vote for them to get back in! they have not thought out how this will play out over 3 year period. the scottish electorate are now reading them as the obstructive party. and reinforces their image of control freaks, who run and hide from real democracy? shame on them and a sad reflection on their roots and current leadership!
44

Kipling,

Democracy on the wane 05/03/2009 04:15:28
And when the government papers in 15 or 30 years' time are published we'll find out what really happened and why.
45

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 04:26:03
the non democratic labour party. the public does not get a vote on the prime minister (because we'd vote him out), we don't get a vote on the business secetary (because we'd never vote for him) we don't get to vote on europe (because we'd never vote for it) now we're told we won't get to vote on independence?(just in case the result might not be what you think it might be?) IF YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE LABOUR PARTY, IS THIS WHAT YOU SIGNED UP TOO? MAYBE THIS IS WHY THEIR BEHIND 20%+ IN THE POLLS. YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT EVEN THE FOOLS WILL WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE OCCASIONALLY! BYE BYE LABOUR! ANOTHER OWN GOAL!
46

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 05/03/2009 05:02:26
I see there is a unionist party gathering taking place when this on-line paper is released - however, like the actual unionist parties, they can't keep it up for long.

As predicted, all the unionist parties have now taken their instructions from from their masters in London. So it seems we go to the polls with a defeated Labour Party in Scotland and a LibDem and Tory party which has little representation in Scotland, telling the people of Scotland, that not only can't they have Independence - they can't even vote on it.

So much for democracy when a people are prevented from expressing their opinions one way or they other, because the "ruling" parties are frightened of what the result might be.

It should make for an interesting GE and even more interesting Holyrood election.
47

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 05:22:56
to set the perception that people do not have access to democratic solution to their grivence, is a very dangerous road to go down! when you enter a period of uncertentiy through recession and more like a depression, this shows real political naivety on murphy & gray! this could be their iraq?
48

donald anderson it's me,

glasgow 05/03/2009 05:23:36
Unionist Alliance backs London Rule.
49

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 05:32:41
this one single act might go down in scottish history as the turning point towards independence! well done labour, you've just done a tory party style action in scotland! bye bye labour
50

gus1940,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 06:22:59
What happened to yesterday's police story?

I hope a suitable complaint has been made to The Press Complaints Commission regarding the blatant disgusting misrepresentation of the facts regarding police staffing levels.
51

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 06:56:09
When our parliament votes on behalf of the Scottish people today to reject wasting public funds on a referendum the minority SNP administration would do well to listen.
The only majority that matters (our democratically elected representatives) will have spoken. Let's hope that the SNP understand enough about democracy to respect it and put aside their plans for a referendum until they actually have a mandate to hold one.
52

Angleland Isover,

05/03/2009 06:57:25
You have no say. You have no control of you or your children's future. United we stand.
53

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 06:57:48
56
Are the SNP giving the democratically elected majority of MSPs the chance to vote on their grandstanding alcohol policies?
No.
Hypocrite.
54

RufusT-Firefly,

05/03/2009 07:04:30
20th Century Boy is in denial.

He posted that he fancies Alex Salmond. He said Salmond was "sooooo handsome".

It was only fair for me to question his standards.
55

Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 07:14:49
Why should this be news to anyone?

Did we not all suspect we would be hearing about this?

Is there not always the next Scottish elections for those who really want a referendum?
56

Ubi,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 07:17:59
People will have great difficulty in understanding what Labour's position is on an independence referendum.

They seem to have been dead against it, mustard for it and now a bit chary of it, at least for a while. All within less than half the life of this Parliament.

There is nothing voters detest more than uncertainty.
57

Phil C,

05/03/2009 07:22:19
The only surprise here is that the a*sehole party has made a decision, or has it!
58

NayLabour2,

05/03/2009 07:29:14
no i am not suprised that the unionists gang togther to protect the union, but what is sad is some of the unionist posters being PROUD of the fact that each unionist party will not allow a free vote. yet 'tam-the-bam' calls the snp power hunger!!!! if the unionist are really convined of thier members feelings then the vote should be free. as for the critisism of the scottish futures trust, yes the snp need to get this sorted but can any scot, nationalist or unionist, really have the brass neck to defend PFI after this week? come on guys you should be ashamed. while westmister bailes out banks and give YOUR money to private PIF companies you appear happy that we can get the money to build a bridge!
59

,

05/03/2009 07:34:25
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60

Phil C,

05/03/2009 07:34:47
#70 fresian "Let the people decide"

The SNP wouldn't get a motion for a 'confidence' election through because of the reasons you state.

SNP supporters just need to be patient while the self-preserving opposition dither and wait for a miracle to save their skins. The election will come. The referendum will come. Independence will come. Prosperity will come. About five years should do it.
61

,

05/03/2009 07:41:22
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62

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 07:42:51
73
That's exactly the attitude the SNP administration at Holyrood should adopt. They should park the referendum until there is a mandate in parliament for one (ie. a majority of MSPs' manifesto promised one).
In the meantime they should attempt to govern for the good of the country not the party.
63

Phil C,

05/03/2009 07:44:46
#75

That's what they're trying to do, silly!
64

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

05/03/2009 07:46:41
#75 Yes, Grahamski, stop being silly.
65

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 07:48:04
74
What on earth are you talking about?
We are in the most severe global finacial crisis in several generations and you seriously suggerst that the best use of public funds just now is to hold a referendum supported by a minority of our MSPs?
Rather than spend on hosptitals or schools you seriously think the money would be better spent on a ballot?
Really?
66

John S,

05/03/2009 07:53:19
Iain Gray: Scottish Labour should never be afraid of the verdict of the Scottish people in an independence referendum, but that referendum should ask a straightforward, honest and fair question. 26 July 2008
67

Phil C,

05/03/2009 07:54:15
#78

You forgot a bit..... "We are in the most severe Labour encouraged global financial crisis."

The sooner Labour disappear, the better for everybody.
68

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 07:55:30
78 Grahamski
Graham,
You are never going to say anything against the Nu Labour policy but the referendum would address the needs of Scotland and include positive alternatives to Independence.
The people (me included) will turn against the union if we don't get control of our Finances.
69

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 07:56:10
Leaving aside all the rhetoric, one has to look at realities. Study the figures in the govt's pre budget forecasts and then do an analysis of the fiscal position as it would apply to Scotland using the Scottish govt's own analysis.

According to them Scotland contributes 8.3% of UK tax revenue (non-oil) and is responsible for 9.5% of expenditure. If you do the appropriate calculation on this years estimates you get a deficit of £18.4bn - more than 15% of GDP - hugely above the already high UK estimate. Anyone who doubts this need only look up the approprate info. How would oil revenues help - maybe if oil spikes again but not at a present price of $43 per barrel - a level at which oil and gas UK say that only one third of new North Sea projects are viable.

The reality is that those who do believe in independence need to ensure that the Scottish economy is strong enough to cope first without just hoping for high oil prices to come to the rescue. They may argue that the Scottish govt should be given more powers to develop the economy - that is a fair and legitimate point and a much more constructive approach.

As things stand launching a new country with such a fragile fiscal postion onto world markets that are also fragile is a frightening prospect.
70

Phil C,

05/03/2009 07:59:59
#79 Rulesbutnobrains

Yes, yes we know you want a federation. Stop banging on. The rest of us want independence or the status quo.

I do agree that the SNP will be secretly relieved. I don't think they would win a referendum in the next couple of years. It would be close, but the fear factor would be stoked up by feardie onionists. People are naturally wary of change, so a couple of years of majority SNP governance would do no harm.
71

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 08:01:30
83
'...but the referendum would address the needs of Scotland'
The referendum would use public funds needed elsewhere. The choice is stark, do you want public money used to fund a hospital operating theatre or a bit of political theatre?
72

Phil C,

05/03/2009 08:05:40
#87

But Gordo the Magnificent has given away our £hundreds£ of £billions£. What's a few quid to save our country from this pile of Labour poo and onionist entrenchment?
73

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 08:12:54
88
Is this what passes as political comment at SNP HQ these days?
Dear oh dear, it's going to be a long two years as this discredited and impotent SNP admininstration slides into oblivion amist recriminations and grievance-fuelled spite....
74

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

05/03/2009 08:13:22
#87 Silly Grahamski, are you seriously suggesting the price of this countries democratic rights are valued at the same price as a hospital theatre?
75

,

05/03/2009 08:14:36
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76

Gdgy,

05/03/2009 08:15:45
This is not news.
And Labour will not hvae killed any referendum, the SNP will have failed to achieve one! Another broken promise....I notice none of the SNPites have been saying how biased and prejudical this erronous view is to Labour! BUT Oh course the hootsmon is known to be anti-SNP...except when it isn't
77

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 08:16:55
84 Ugly George
George,
Where do you pay your taxes I, and most of the people I know in Large companies, pay my taxes to English tax offices. Gers is incapable of breaking this out.
Similarly other taxes paid to London.
You need a specific study which is transparent to see the real contribution.
Any way we need to control the Spending, that is where the benefit is

LIke living in a semi and the guy next door tells you he'll collect all your income and look after you, but you can't see any of the actual figures
Would you agree to that?
78

Phil C,

05/03/2009 08:19:00
#89 "Is this what passes as political comment at SNP HQ these days?"

No it's called light-hearted banter on a comments board. Lighten up mate!
79

BIG EYE,

Paisley 05/03/2009 08:20:14
Hot news for Unionists.

You may be able to stop a referendum this side of the next Scottish elections but you can't stop a UK election by May 2010 at the latest or the Scottish Elections on 2011.

Go back to your constituencies and prepare to SUFFER!
80

Grahamski,

Falkirk 05/03/2009 08:22:38
90
#87 Silly Grahamski, are you seriously suggesting the price of this countries democratic rights are valued at the same price as a hospital theatre?

Democratic rights? The majority of the democratically-elected representatives of our parliament do not support a referendum. The nats confuse their own party's interests with that of either the country or people.

Silly nats. Now we've warned you nutty nats before: this one party on people nonsense leads to jackboots and uniforms......
81

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/03/2009 08:26:45
So Labour are intending to actively prevent people voicing their opinion on this important issue. That's neither democratic, nor surprising.

A referendum must happen - people must be allowed to give their views, one way or another.
82

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 08:28:58
95 BIG EYE,

With even the threat that they will be denied the referendum he steals votes from all the other parties(except those votesr who want Status Quo0 when the GE is held.
I can't believe that Labour will wait till the term is up it has to be Summer/Autumn or it runs into the G20.
83

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05/03/2009 08:29:32
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Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 08:29:50
gus1940 # 61

More Nats paranoia and viewing of non-existent conspiracies, the Police story is here:

"http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/SNP-attacked-on-police-recruits.5035056.jp"
85

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05/03/2009 08:30:23
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05/03/2009 08:31:04
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Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 08:31:41
93 TWC
"You need a specific study which is transparent to see the real contribution"

This has been done by a host of research groups and consultants.

GERS does calculations on where tax comes from using a whole range of data from the ONS based on info from all parts of the UK. It does not assume, as you imply, that the tax revenue is allocated by the office that collects it.

"Any way we need to control the Spending, that is where the benefit is"

The Scottish govt already controls the majority of the spending in Scotland. The big area it does not control is social protection - benefits and old age pensions as these are defined by the existing rates in the UK. It does not control defence spending but this is only 6/7% of govt expenditure.


88

Lianachan,

Highlands 05/03/2009 08:32:48
#95 The general election is likely to install a Conservative government at Westminster, which can hardly be considered step forward for Scotland. Scotland needs that referendum.
89

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 08:33:00
Why don't all you Nats drones take to the streets and impress us with a massive show of your support for Salmond's independence referendum.

Salmond has failed, he promised us an independence referendum, when is going to do the decent thing and scuttle back to England?
90

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 08:36:36
It started in America.But I saved the world....., # 103

Record numbers at the moment maybe, but, not the 1000 extra that the SNP said they would recruit.
91

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 08:38:02
104 Ugly George
george,
Gers uses a ratio the basis of which is not explained the only study specific and unbiased was reported by the Herald in 2007. Sorry I don't have a link but I'm sure one of the Nat supporters will supply it.
The spend situation was also covered there.

remember I am trying to create positive reasons for saving the union and the referendum is only a threat if it is denied to the people.
92

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05/03/2009 08:38:14
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05/03/2009 08:39:11
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05/03/2009 08:42:49
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Lianachan,

Highlands 05/03/2009 08:43:01
#110 Personally, I've always viewed the SNP as a tool with which to achieve independence. We can then worry about what kind of government we want to actually run our restored country. Despite disagreeing with them on a number of issues, overall I am surprised and impressed by how well they've actually done in government.
96

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 08:45:42
Salmond's independence referendum was soooo important to him and Scotland's future that he delegated it to, Mike Russell.
That sounds a bit half-hearted to me, or to put a betting spin on it, that Salmond has hedged his bets. He appointed Mike Russell to fail so that Salmond would not catch the blame, but, would be positioned to accept the credit if it passed. It was always a rank outsider, it should be interesting to see what snake-eyed Salmond will do now. Or, more likely what his party will do about him, now that he has failed to deliver the only policy that he had to deliver.
Hoi, Salmond, don't promise what you can't deliver!
97

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 08:49:36
A referendum would certainly be costly to organise but a simple YES/NO question would kill independence dead.

It is highly unlikely that the Scots Unionist majority would ever suddenly change its opinion, and vote for an independent, sovereign Scottish State.

The Labour Party, along with the other Scots Unionist parties, is showing a complete lack of confidence in the Scottish Electorate which is making everyone jittery?

Unless a referendum is held then, like Devolution, it will only become a running constitutional sore, and continually return to haunt the Unionist parties.
98

TWC,

05/03/2009 08:51:48
114 Churchill W

Your Leader -- Elmer Speaketh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AQe5AXxnU&NR=1
99

salmondella,

UK 05/03/2009 08:52:06
That's me boy Ian - You show these yellow and black imposters whose boss!
100

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05/03/2009 08:53:35
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Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 08:53:57
It started in America.But I saved the world.....,111

Who is banned?
Where do I mention trams, England.
I don't give a rats about Edinburgh's little local trams problem. The SNP bottled and botched the trams issue at Holyrood. I think the money would be better spent in the West of Scotland, but, Salmond thought it would be better to bolster his East coast support by spending the money there. As it is he has screwed that up to and a right Horlicks will ensue.
Edinburgh and the East does need a lot more Police, that much is true, with all of the drug abuse, shootings, stabbings, paedophile activity, child abuse etc. that you lot are so fond of.
Salmond should scrap the tram now and reallocate the cash to the Police; if he has the bottle.
102

Ugly George,

Edinbburgh 05/03/2009 08:55:48
108 TWC
"Gers uses a ratio the basis of which is not explained the only study specific and unbiased was reported by the Herald in 2007"

Sorry but the Herald study was an extremely amateurish piece of journalism based on some selective, anecdotal quotes from one year only. If you want a real "unbiased" and properly researched study refer to CPPR at Glasgow Uni, Oxford Economics, Centre for Economic and Business Research. These are independent academic/consultant groups who have researched this issue in a much more professional manner than the Herald.

To give you one example - the Herald justified its piece by quoting the figure for oil revenues as £9.7bn for year 2005/06 or 2006/07 (I can't remember which). What they did not tell you is that this one figure they quoted happened to be the highest overall figure for any year over the past 20 years and that the figure for each of the other 19 years was lower - in many cases considerably lower. Is that "unbiased"

Contrast that with CPPR who referred to the situation over 5 years. You can see the glaring difference in the degree of thorougness and professionalism.
103

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 08:55:57
TWC # 116

I don't have any political affiliations, therefore, I do not have a leader.
Would you like to comment on your leaders failure to deliver the independence referendum that he promised us all?
104

Mikey,

05/03/2009 09:05:16
Churchill W, why don't you do the decent thing and stop being an oxygen thief?
105

Phil C,

05/03/2009 09:05:22
#113 Lianachan "I've always viewed the SNP as a tool with which to achieve independence. We can then worry about what kind of government we want to actually run our restored country."

I'm exactly the same. Given the historic numptiness of Scots voting Labour it's important, for all our sakes, that Labour are killed off now. Otherwise they might make an unwelcome return after independence.
106

Finnzz,

05/03/2009 09:09:07
"Iain didn't need to run it past Gordon – he knows what his view is,"

Is this the Gray man developing a backbone? or is this confirmation that nothing Labour in Scotland does can go against the will of Westminster.

Labour looking after Scotlands interests, don't make me laugh.
107

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05/03/2009 09:13:18
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Fettes,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:16:46
Is there anything that angers Scots more than being told that they are not allowed to decide what is best for them ? A terrible decision by the opposition parties that we will all be reminded of when the election comes, and they may pay a heavy price for their lack of trust in the people who elected them. Every Scottish voter will be wondering if they are worthy of our trust and our vote.
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EllonBob,

Aberdeen 05/03/2009 09:17:06
Oh Hamish!

you rather miss the point. A parliament is not just about passing legislation - don't we have enough laws allready? And is it the best way to tackle our problems?

The SNP Government made a commendable start when they said they would have less legislation and use the other levers of Governmental power to achive etheir objectives, this is about good government not just coalition government.

The role of other MSPs/Parties is to hold the ever increasing Executive/Government to accouint on the exercise of executive power. A minority goverment makes that more effective.

Hooray for less legislation I say and less money for lawyers to draft and interpret unnecessary legal clauses! Why do you need a Bill to give children an apple and a glass every day at school for instance....

And anyway isn't this a bit of a 'dog bites man' story? "Unionist Party Opposes referendum on independence" why not add to that "Exclusive - Pope found found to have leanings towards catholicism"

This is a story to assure Labour activists on the First day of Scottish Party Conference that Ian hasn't gone soft on the LP's position on the UK. End of.
110

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 09:18:09
121 Churchill W

Weust be both in disguise cause I'm not for Independence either except as a last resort. I have no links to any pary either now
111

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:20:08
108 TW
PS
The bottom line is that the Scottish economy is based on extremely high levels of public spending much of it enabled by the Barnett Formula. Nobody can dispute that. It might be argued that a "geographical share" of oil revenues could compensate for some of this but this would be dependent on high oil prices - which would have to become even higher to compensate for the declining rate of production and extra costs in extracting oil from smaller, more difficult fields.

A decline in the price of oil as we see now and as we saw in the late eighties would completely ruin such an economy.

We really need to face up to this reality and those who advocate independence in Nov 2010 need to explain how we can adjust this in such a short period of time.
112

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 05/03/2009 09:21:07
I would be surprised if Salmond and Russell did't see this coming. No doubt they will have a cunning plan to wrong-foot the unionist numpties yet again. How's this for an idea:

Anticipating that the original motion falls, put forward a second one to support a referendum "in principle" and hold one at the earliest opportunity. Test their commitment. After their weak excuses, I would love to see Gray and Scott squirm out of that one.
113

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:28:21
78 grahamanski? you don't spend money on the public sector in a depression? there's very little return! you need to create money for the state only the private sector can do that! if brown & darling had a clue they would have nationalised the banks at the first sign of trouble in october! but no! their still dithering! and now we're going to start printing money ffs. the union will break up, and i bet that it comes through the whole of the uk having a referendum! introduced by the tories south of the border!
114

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 09:29:01
The smell of fear, from the Unionist camp, is tangible.

Even their excuses are based on fear.
115

AJ Fife,

05/03/2009 09:29:53
Hardly a surprise, the Unionists were always going to duck out of this one.

However, as the premier politician in the land, Mr Salmond will get his way in the end.
116

Alan B,

05/03/2009 09:32:51
#Ugly George

The thing you are overlooking is people like me support independence because scotland has been completely mismanaged economically by westminster.

Waiting for scotland to have a more robust economy before venturing to independence therefore completely misses the point.

We have 2 main unionist parties running the uk and our economic management with no interest in improving scotlands economy and no policies or ideas in how to reverse our relative economic decline.

The uk tories are a south of england party that will put the interests of the south of england first. The labour party are a mixture of complete incompetence (as you know) and a party whose economic strategy is short term political power.

Yes there is an alternative to independence and that is the devolution of economic powers. However we know the 2 main uk parties stand against that and it is not likely to happen. Wendy almost did it but calman has turned into a joke.

There is simply no way the uk political system is mature enough to give scotland fiscal autonomy to allow us to put in place policies to improve the economy, devolve competition policy so that we can form a strategy for our businesses and allow us to join the euro if considered to be in scotland interests.

If the uk could reform itself to allow the flexibility for scotland to transform itself being in the uk union would not matter too much on economic grounds. However it is not going to happen. You have seen yourself the result of scotlands place within the union over the last 40yrs and it is not good.
117

john z,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:34:25
Whether you are for or against independence, most folk would like to have a vote. Why will London Labour not allow it??

Is this a democracy or not???

Ian Gray is proving himself to be a complete NON leader. He has no backbone whatsoever. Him and Jim p(m)uppet Murphy, are well matched. What a pair of quisling Anti Scottish wee jobbies.


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05/03/2009 09:34:45
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05/03/2009 09:37:16
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john z,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:40:52
Look if Gray, Murphy and Brown are so, so confident that the referendum would give a 'no' vote result, then what are they hiding from.

The fact is that if for example currently around 30% of people in an opinion poll are in favour of independence, in an actual real referendum, that may well equate to more than 50%. Labour know this. Not everyone will vote, and those who DO want change are more likely to vote than those who don't.

If 70% of the Scottish population took part in a referendum, and 35% want independence....Well you do the math, as the yanks would say.

So opinion polls showing 30-35% or more support for independence, translates into more than 50% in favour in a referendum. It is in all actuality a very close thing.

LABOUR KNOW THIS, AND ARE FEART.
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john z,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:42:31
Ian Gray.... You can just smell the fear from him. The man is an out and out coward.
122

Publius,

London 05/03/2009 09:46:46
#131 Fettes

"A terrible decision by the opposition parties that we will all be reminded of when the election comes, and they may pay a heavy price for their lack of trust in the people who elected them."

More likely Scots will vote much the same way as last time. There is very little possibility of the SNP winning an overall majority at Holyrood in the foreseeable future. The SNP should recognise this and take independence off their agenda.
123

Vasey,

05/03/2009 09:47:44
Grahamski,Falkirk 05/03/2009 08:01:30
Grahamski Wrote

"The referendum would use public funds needed elsewhere. The choice is stark, do you want public money used to fund a hospital operating theatre or a bit of political theatre?"

How much do you think this would cost to organise?
What percentage of the £500M being spent on the trams do you think it would cost?

I don't want my money used to fund the Calman Commission but I never got a say on that.
124

john z,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:47:57

Some new labour party campaign slogans;

'Labour, the anti-Scotland party'.

'Labour, we do what's best for London'.

'Labour, Scotland is too pathetic to be independent'.

What a bunch of utter anti -scotland wasters. Gray, Murphy and Brown should be run out of Scotland.
125

im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:50:00
#20 i read it and i can say he makes more sense about it than others
all this "its oor baw and we dinae want yous playing,so nae referendum" ah big eans are you scared the political boggeyman cometh oh sorry under labours pc system that should be boggeyperson
why so scared?,or is it cant take the truth or what might be the result?,well the 3 of them will have to explain to voters how,they think how voters should think in scotland
3 parties like the 3 hags in macbeth oh sorry any phespians the scottish play
speaking of phespians wendy wanted to raise cash for this sexually challanged group,so that we would not all be phespianphobic
mare like suffering as rab the ranter once put it "strapadicktome" yes it can be cured
126

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:50:43
143 Alan B
There is no inherent reason why an economy cannot perform well within a wider framework. Look at the USA. San Francisco is thousands of miles from the centre of govt (Washington) and thousands of miles from the centre of finance (New York) but it is (per capita) the richest city in the world (last time I checked at least). California in general is wealthy to the extent that, if it were a separate country, it would be the seventh richest in the world.

A similar situation pertains in Australia with Western Australia performing well despite being remote from the rest of the country. The issue has as much to do with prevalent culture as it has to do with govt (mis)management. I think, therefore that it is a simplistic approach to say that the fault lies with a Westminster govt. One way or another the Scottish economy will need to be reconstructed. Personally going for sudden independence in 2010 and introducing a trial by fire approach is a very dangerous way of going about it - the reaction might not be that which is hoped for.
127

tog,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:51:04
Can't help but think this is getting blowen out of proportion. The SNP are a majority party who seemed to deliberately down play independence at the last election. The other parties, with the exception of the SSP and the Greens who either lost seats or were completely wiped out, made fairly clear that they were not in favour of independence and got the majority of votes. The SNP maybe the government but they don't have the votes for this and should forget about it until they do. That is democracy. Having a referendum now would be a waste of time and money and take over the political debate in Scotland at a time when the Parliament should be concentrating on other things not least the economic crisis.
128

john z,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 09:51:16
It is clear, the Ian (I'm feart) Gray will not trust the people of Scotland. He is happy to ride roughshod over democracy, like his chum in London comrade Brown.

Labour will not allow the people of Scotland to have their say.
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05/03/2009 09:56:57
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Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 05/03/2009 10:01:33
That's fine but you know Labour will be wiped out in the next election, they are denying Scotland it's democratic right to choose so when the opportunity next arises our democratic rights will be exercised to the utmost. you are only postponing the inevitable Mr Gray, Brown, Black, Whatever...
131

salmondella,

UK 05/03/2009 10:02:18
The above issue has highlighted the weakness of the SNP.

The SNP have peaked and are now on their way down. This process has being going on, probably since just before the Glenrothes by election.

The crisis within the Celtic tigers of Ireland and Iceland and to a lesser degree Norway has proved that independedence cannot protect any nation from the market economy. Thus one of the main argument for Scottish independence has been cruelly shattered by the world economic crisis

Of course, they will cling on desperately like a dying man, and will have small moments of success, but the writing is on the wall - they cannot get anywhere with their dream of independence - they are, to all intents and purposes, finished.
132

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05/03/2009 10:02:42
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im brian and so is my wife,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 10:03:05
the look on blairs face ,when the scottish parli changed hands was priceless,next hes off earning big bucks
and then herr broon took over and vowed that scotland or as he calls it northern britain,will come to heal,under broons jackbooted stormtroopers
well scotland gave ye a bloody nose,next round a good boot in the rear end is required
we no lomger live in a democracy,when democraticaly elected numpties,tell you like a nanny ,we know better than you huh we vote in who we want and kick out who we dont
settle the referendom question with the people of scotland voting for what they want,not what labour lackies tell us what we want
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05/03/2009 10:03:31
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pwd,

Borders 05/03/2009 10:11:46
# 22 Col. Blimp­IV.

"... The Freedom to choose our own democratic path ..."

We have chosen, many times, and particularly in the 2007 elections when 83% of the electorate did not support the SNP and when two thirds of the votes cast were for unionist parties. Some day this and its implications will hopefully sink in.
136

Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 10:12:28
February 2009

"System Three poll in Scotland shows voting intention in a possible referendum on Scottish Independence. The poll showed support for YES at 38%, for No at 40%."

Taking margin of error into account it's about 50/50.

No wonder the unionistas are feart.
137

Alan B,

05/03/2009 10:12:39
#Ugly George

"There is no inherent reason why an economy cannot perform well within a wider framework. "

Agree. And I said as much in my post.

The countries and states you mentioned have been run in devolved federal systems. Germany to till reunification was another example of a successful federal model.

The uk has always been very london centric and very centralised. Even now with devolution it refused to devolve economic decision making.

Oz even has different immigration policies in different states. The US different taxation and completelty different policies in different states.

We need to either devolve economic decision making (how long do you wait), we have had undemocratic referendums in 79, devolution with extremely limited economic devolution, a failed tory rule of 17yrs and then failed 10yrs of labour directly from westminster, with neither party admitting the failure and addressing the problem with economic devolution.

What also is the disadvantage of being within the eu union as 2 individual memember. A union with a single market, common currency and free movement of people. Why join a very centralised union to then have it represent you within another union.

Part of the problem i think is demonstrated by some of the more robust unionist posters on this forum who when asked will admit they would rather have poorer scotland within the union than a richer scotland outside. That view i think is reflected in both the labour and tory parties in scotland. As such it becomes a union at any price economically.

Not a union because it is in scotlands economic and national interest.


138

The Strategist,

05/03/2009 10:13:07
Gray said the economic crisis had hardened his previously cautious approach to the Scottish Government's proposals for a referendum.

I'd really like to understand why this man seriously thinks that remaining part of a Union whose institutions have done such huge amounts of damage to the Scottish economy is the right thing to do.
139

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 10:14:21
There seems to be some confusion here. Labour can't kill the referendum bill if it hasn't been presented. If they think that the SNP's priorities are wrong, then it is incumbent upon them to challenge the SNP's role as the minority government. The SNP are duty bound to present their referendum bill, it is what their electors voted them into do. If Labour and the other unionist parties disagree with this so much, then they really need to table a vote of no confidence.
140

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

05/03/2009 10:14:32
160: What a load of rubbish! There is a Labour UK recession on, i.e. caused largely by being in the union, and you have the temerity to claim that things would be worse if Scotland actually had any real powers to do something about it? Truly you are one Jaffa cake short of a packet.
141

Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 10:16:17
pwd

I wasn't aware the 2007 election was unionist v SNP. Whatever gave you that idea?
142

Stan Butler,

05/03/2009 10:21:14
#170 Andy Ritchie's left boot,

'There is a Labour UK recession on, i.e. caused largely by being in the union'


You think the recession is caused largely by Scotland being in the Union?

143

salmondella,

Uk 05/03/2009 10:26:54
#170 You NATS continue to contradicy yourself.

Only a few days ago you NATS were complaining that the MOD shipbuilding orders had went to the Clyde for political reasons - Labour ( the Union) wanted to keep the Scots happy by giving them jobs etc etc.

Thus, by your logic, it was the Union to blame for creating jobs in Scotland. So if we were not in the Union - the jobs would probably not come to Scotland and we would be worse off!!

You can't have it both ways - oh of course I forgot -your a nationalist!
144

Stan Butler,

05/03/2009 10:28:20
#169 Observer

'The SNP are duty bound to present their referendum bill, it is what their electors voted them into do.'


Have you spoken to everyone who voted SNP?

Is that how you know why they voted for them?

Or is it mere supposition on your part?

Do you reckon that some who voted SNP did so as a protest vote and have no interest in a referendum?

Perhaps some people voted SNP because they wanted LIT?

Or maybe they were first time housebuyers who wanted a £2,000 grant?

The SNP didn't seem to be bound to try to introduce those, or many other, policies that they promised in their manifesto.
145

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 10:28:25
167 Alan B
You seem to assume that the granting of more economic/fiscal powers to Holyrood is a dead duck. That may be the case if Labour are re-elected (Labour need their Scottish MPs tied to their apron strings) but I don't think it is if the Tories get in. On this issue I think they will take a fairly pragmatic approach which they might perceive as being in their interests.

They will see that they will probably have little representation in Scotland. They might then say OK we'll scrap Barnett, let you have an allocation of oil revenues more tax powers and on you go. In return they might restrict the voting powers of Scottish MP to only those issues which affect the whole of the Uk. This would diminish the power of the Labour party who might still have a significant number of Scottish MPs thus strengthening the Tories postion.

The might also feel that over the years the money saved in srapping Barnett is going to be greater than the loss in oil revenues thus giving them room for tax cuts.
146

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 10:29:14
Can we forget arguing about who caused the recession (capitalism, aided and abetted by Gordon Brown is the correct answer) and get back to the issue ? If the unionist parties object to the SNP's conduct of Government, it is incimbent upon them to force a vote of confidence.
147

Miss H,

05/03/2009 10:31:52
173 Typical unionist argument. With independence we would lose those lovely nuclear submarines as well and our troops might not get the chance to go to Iraq or Afghanistan either.

Newsflash - we can live with that.
148

Observer,,

Glasgow 05/03/2009 10:32:29
174 THE SNP stands for independence. If the opposition parties object to them putting that at the heart of their legislative programme, then they should force a vote of no confidence. Anything other than that is an empty gesture and political grandstanding.
149

Alan B,

05/03/2009 10:32:36
#Ugly George

Give you an example of one of the problems with the uk.

Brown takes over the economy in 97. Scotland manufacturing industry goes into a major recession and the rate of decline of manufacturing in scotland increases from the decline under the tories.

Then in 2001/2002 Brown plunges the scottish economy into a full blown recession.

What do we hear in uk news like the BBC - that Britain is booming and not the reality of scotland struggling while england boomed.

If you do not talk and admit the problems then you will never come up with solutions.

How many people in scotland were actually aware of the recession in scotland under brown or the manufacturing meltdowns as brown ran a high pound.
150

Sportivo,

porty 05/03/2009 10:32:47
So now it will be 2 referendums, the first one in the 2011 election to vote a majority for the SNP. Then, if they win, the yes or no one.
This war cry message from the LibDems and Labour beggars beleif.It's a desperate gamble.
It's like "The economy's knackered, so we can do nothing else. Let's all pull together, there's far too much else to do when there is such a crisis."

Not when you're sitting at home on the dole....we've plenty of time to be debating politics.

And of course one of the things we can talk about is......the small matter of yet another Tory Government imposed on Scotland next year.
151

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 10:39:34
#152 - Interesting and relevant link between the Edinburgh TramCar Fiasco, a monumental Labour Vanity Project, and the Party We Love's attitude to referenda. The (Labour) Edinburgh Council squandered £9Million of Taxpayers money on their TollTax (congestion charge) referendum which, naturally, they thought they could win. Most of the public money was spent on propaganda to con the public into voting for their 'Preferred Strategy'. The public told them exactly where to stuff their 'Preferred Strategy' by a margin of 2.5:1. As all three TollTax questions were loaded to include 'TramCars' they are now shamelessly trying to recycle the 'stuff it' result as 'public support for TramCars'. Politicians? - you just KNOW they're lying as soon as you see their lips move!
152

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 10:47:56
#178 Oh I'm sorry and here was me thinking that they wanted to engage in "a National Conversation" with people from all backgrounds? That they wanted to be the best thign for everyone in Scotland, regardless of their political beliefs?

That's the problem with this argument, everyone has pre-judged it. No-one bothers trying to win people from the other side over, they just slag each other off instead.

The main reason I don't want a referendum is that I don't want to have to listen to everyone whining about it for months.
153

Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 10:48:29
Oh well. No surprise here then. We didn't get a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.
154

Publius,

London 05/03/2009 10:49:03
#170

"A Labour recession" ... could be.

But some of my English (and overseas) collegues say that it is a Scottish recession and English provincial recession. Five banks have gone bust - Northern Rock, Alliance & Leicester, Bradford & Bingley, RBS, HBOS - and none of them were based in London. If they were properly run from the city, they might not have gone bust.

Also the country has been run by a Scot - Brown - as chancellor and PM since 1997. Under independence Brown or someone like him would be running Scotland. That thought doesn't fill me with confidence. Perhaps it would be run by Salmond who used to work for ... hold it ... RBS and that doesn't fill me with confidence either.
155

Alan B,

05/03/2009 10:50:03
#Ugly George

The tories may. Who knows. But there have been and a lot of if and buts over the last 40yrs. And all we have seen is disappointment. Despite talks of home rule and parliaments we still do not have devolved economic powers.

We already have the unionist commission of calman rule out fiscal autonomy and has become a complete sham.

Hope the tories a party with little representation in scotland devolve ecomomic decision making with fiscal autonomy and like, when it is not even there policy and the tories in scotland are problably still not sure if they actually like the scottish parliament and have done little to convince they would back fiscal autonomy.

But lets say the tories do get in. Will they devolve the decision over currency. Part of the problem with sterling is scotland using the pound no matter the monetary policy which at many times have been disasterous.

The tories in power will end up just fighting europe again and alienating the uk. So stay in the uk to have them representing scotlands interests. It is a bit of a joke.

At the end of the day if the union is to work scotland needs scottish unionist parties to come up with solutions, take positions that are convincing. It be a highly devolved uk where we pull powers because it is advantageous not just so there is something symbolic to keep the uk together.

The biggest problem for the union is both the tories or labour support the union no matter what, no matter the price. And as such they will not put policies in place that may benefit scotland incase it jeopordises the union.
156

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 10:50:21
179 Alan B
Why would manufacturing in Scotland only go into decline if it was operating under the same interest rates, currency and market conditions as the rest of the UK? This seems to be based on a view that Scotland depends on manufacturing while the rest of the UK depends on financial services.

But this is not the case. Financial services make up a bigger proportion of the economy in Scotland as opposed to the UK in general. Many parts of England are still heavily dependent on car manufacturing Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, BMW/mini all have factories there.
157

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

05/03/2009 10:51:29
72: Stan Butler: I think you know what I meant - we are currently in the union and that has done nothing to help us get through Labour's recession, and has in fact made matters a lot worse. Had we been independent, we would at least have had the normal powers of an independent nation to deal with it in the manner best suited to our own nation as opposed to being tied to the coat tails of another nation with different priorities and needs. Currently we are hamstrung by our lack of real power. Also the argument that "we wre in a recession so this is no time to be thinking about being independnet" is utterly pathetic and devoid of logic or merit. Independence is primarily a moral question although for some reason the financial debate (which also points to independence as a better way forward) seems to take precedence alost to the exclusion of the moral issues.

Not British, Scottish.
158

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

05/03/2009 10:56:36
184: Brown isn't Scottish, he is in his own words "North British". And Brown has no chance whatsoever of holding power in an independnet Scotland.

Salmond may have worked for RBS but that doesn't mean he is responsible for their current plight and more than the Royal Mail's troubles can be blamed on me because I worked as a Xmas postie when I was at uni. The problems of RBS and others are far more a result of Brown's incompetence as chancellor and his light touch lack of regulation; his encouragement of gambling; and his own failed gambling.
159

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 10:57:20
#187

I suppose it would have been best if our two largest banks went bust then? Forfeiting the savings and mortgages of half of Scotland in the process.

You can't say we haven't had help, we've had help equivalent to multiples of our GDP, whether we would have been in the situation in the first place is a different argument, but we have had help.
160

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

05/03/2009 10:57:48
"any more", not "and more". I'm not accepting blame for Royal Mail!! :)
161

Alan B,

05/03/2009 10:58:11
#Publius

The recession and are arguments for independence are 2 different things.

The argument for independence is scotland poor economic performance within the union with neither of the 2 main parties at uk level interest in turning round that situation.

The mess of the uk economy is largely down to browns incompetence or possibily more likely browns deliberate mismanagement of the economy for political power.

It is browns failure to adhere to his own golden rule over good fiscal management and generally dreadful irresponsible fiscal policies.

It is browns failure to control the money supply ie credit growth that is responsible for the uncontrolled hyper house price inflation, massive levels of consumer debt and banks that funded these silly levels of borrowing via the credit markets that brouught them to their knees.

Add in the almost criminally negligent regulation of the financial institutions with banks freely off shoring massive mortgage debt to keep the cycle of ever increasing debt going.
162

RufusT-Firefly,

05/03/2009 10:59:26
176 Observer,,Glasgow 05/03/2009 10:29:14
If the unionist parties object to the SNP's conduct of Government, it is incimbent upon them to force a vote of confidence.
===================================================

No it isn't.

What tosh.
163

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

05/03/2009 11:02:31
189: I think the old Irishism "if I was going there I wouldn't have started from here" might be relevant, yes. The banking problems are a result of UK mis-regulation. Oh, and although these companies were at one time purely Scottish, they had both become something else, more international companies carrying a Scottish name, long before the current problems. Help, yes, using our own money, but a bit like Gordon Brown pushing you in the water and then offering to sell you a lifebelt for a lot more than it was worth.
164

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 11:02:47
185 Alan B
"But lets say the tories do get in. Will they devolve the decision over currency"

Let's look at this issue. You are unhappy that Scotland does not have control over currency but is the option the euro. The euro is putting a huge strain on some European countries at the moment and some analysts are questionning if some countries will abandon it. Membership of the eurozone is one of the major problems Ireland is facing just now. It is facing a huge budget deficit and loss of jobs but its hands are tied as to what it can do. It cannot reflate its economy (as the SNP say they would like to do) as this would put it in further breach of the stability pact - it has already been officially warned.

They have been forced to cut public expenditure thus deflating the economy further - that is why 100,000 demonstrated in Dublin recently.
165

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 11:06:20
194 Alan B
PS
The only logical response to your concern is for Scotland to have its own currency. That is the only way in which decisions on currency can be devolved.
166

Libertarian!,

05/03/2009 11:07:25
What right have ANY politician or political party inside or outside the Scottish nation possess in deciding what the future holds for its own citizens?
Scotland and its people have been treated more or less with contempt and second class status since its independence was treachorously handed over on a platter to governments south of the border.
Surely, the time has arrived, so that the basic right should be given to our citizens to decide what the future should hold for their country.
167

Satire above all,

05/03/2009 11:07:26
I agree, John Z 149

..in the event of a referenum you coul;d gaurantee that 100% of SNP supporters would be out there making their mark. Ypu would probably need a very hiugh turnout...certainly in excess of 70% for the unionists to have a chance...and when was the last time there was such a turnout for an election in Scotland , I wonder...

You are right, and their FEAR of this is palpable.
168

BillyC,

Paisley 05/03/2009 11:09:06
#156 Tog

The fact is most people who voted for these unionist parties are unaware that these parties are funded from England so that they are hardly going to be putting the Scottish people first.

These people are also unaware that the Scottish MP's are actually getting paid a full time wage to do absolutely nothing at Westminster - millions of pounds that could be spent on Health, Education, Poverty etc.

These people are also unaware that England wants a referendum on Europe because they don't want to be in the same situation that Scotland is in with regard to the union.

This is just three examples and I can assure you that when this is put to most people they are not too happy and wonder why no one has told them of these facts before. They will be here in Renfrewshire via newsletters etc so we will see how much it changes their views on the union.
www.paisleyexpressions.blogspot.com
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05/03/2009 11:09:11
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Alan B,

05/03/2009 11:09:58
#186 Ugly George

You are missing my point about the scottish manufacturing recession of the late 90s and the full blown scottish recession of 2001/2002 under brown.

What i am saying is it is important the media report the actual performance of things like the economy. By doing so people will make there mind up about the government and the policies needed to address the problems.

If you have a media telling us that the uk is booming when actually england is booming and scotland is in recession we avoid dealing with reality and scotland problems.

One of the biggest problems for britain is we implement economic policies for the south of england and not policies for the uk as a whole with different policies for the different problems that exist with the uk.

This results in 2 main things
1)the tories got voted out largely due to the recession of the early 90s which inflicted the south and middle england. They were quite willing to vote in a government who had put the north of britain into economic meltdown.

2)look at monetary policy and the remarks of the head of the bank of england that high unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south. While i can see why eddie george took that view it was representative of the fact he only had interest rates as blunt economic instrument under his control. The government was clearly failing to deal with and take the tough decisions to control south east inflationary problems and failing to deal with north south divides. The policies of both the tories and labour have encouraged a worsening of the divides and have certainly never tried to address the issue.
171

Satire above all,

05/03/2009 11:11:11
187 Anndy

SCOTTISH not British :-)
172

RufusT-Firefly,

05/03/2009 11:15:14
POP star Michael Jackson is expected to announce a two-month stay in London today.
It has been reported the 50-year-old singer will confirm he will play "up to 50 nights" at the 20,000-seat O2 arena during June and July.
======================================================

Nevsky, do you still think the Millenium Dome, now the O2 Arena (something everyone knows except Nevsky), is 'hardly ever used'?
173

frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 11:15:15
#186, UG.

A major influence on the Scottish economy is its lack of transport infrastructue.

The UK Government has had control of this since 1707.

Scotland has 1 (one) partial road of Motorway standard, and an incredibly poor Rail system; this is a result of Westminster decision making.

Until Scotland has control of its own finances, decisions affecting its economic health will always be subject to Westminster priorities. These priorities are dictated by the distribution of population in England; more correctly, SE England and the Midlands.

This is the crux of the matter; economic policy is dictated by the needs/desires/wishes of the major population centres.

This is the inconvenient truth that can only be changed by Scotland taking control of its own destiny. To expect altruism in economic policy is akin to believing in the tooth fairy; it does not exist.
174

Satire above all,

05/03/2009 11:15:18
199

Why are you opposed to an independent Scotland? Why would a Scot not want a free nation which they could call their own? Was that englishman, Shakespeare, right when he wrote

"Alas! Poor country almost afraid to know itself. It can not be called our mother, but our grave..."

Are you almost afraid to know yourself? I'm not...
175

TWC,

05/03/2009 11:15:34
135 Ugly George,
George, sorry I had to rush away.

If we collect all our own revenues we can only spend what we earn on public services, but you and I aren't going to agree and that's ok.
For Me if we deny the people of Scotland the right to a referendum and we deny them Fiscal Autonomy I will switch my vote to the Nats.
176

Alan B,

05/03/2009 11:17:00
#Ugly George

re currency.

There are 3 options. All have advantages and disadvantages like most things. On balance i believe the euro is the best option for scotland. (it would be better still if england was to also join).

The main problem with sterling is the failure of uk governments to ensure that the uk is set for the benefit of the whole of the uk.

If the south east has an inflationary problem do not set interest rates to kill economic growth in the north rest of the uk. Deal with south east inflation.

Move government lock stock and barrel out of london to say manchester. Deal with the supply side or/and constrain aggregate demand of the area. etc etc eg put in quantitive credit controls over mortgages stopping the massive issue of the housing market. It was always said the uk interest rates were higher than other eu countries due to the south east housing market.
177

Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 11:17:05
Ugly George # 194

I would be more convinced about an independence referendum if the SNP could put 100,000 on Scottish streets in support of it. If they could do that then they might get a bandwagon effect, but, I doubt they could mobilise 5,000 any day in Salmond's support.
178

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 11:18:06
#196 You're an idiot. They have a right because we elected them, that's how repsentative democracy works, we could have elected whoever we liked to represent our views.
179

Alan B,

05/03/2009 11:22:26
sorry should have been:

"The main problem with sterling is the failure of uk governments to ensure that the uk monetary policy is set for the benefit of the whole of the uk."
180

,

05/03/2009 11:27:26
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05/03/2009 11:27:52
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Churchill W.,

05/03/2009 11:35:08
dude # 211

Salmond should put all his supporters onto the streets and show these politicians that there is groundswell of support for not only Salmond's referendum, but, also for independence.
They couldn't just ignore Salmond then, could they?
183

Conan the Librarian™,

05/03/2009 11:37:34
202
Rufus, a Michael Jackson concert or fifty ?

Hardly ever used by mature, responsible, adults then.
184

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 11:39:00
212 Churchill W

We're talking about the referendum so yu should tell those who oppose the referendum to go out on the street

There won't be many of any colour -- this is a digraceful way to treat the sCOTS.
185

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 11:39:45
206 Alan
"On balance i believe the euro is the best option for scotland. (it would be better still if england was to also join)."

I don't get the logic of your argument. You were saying that the problem with sterling is that the MPC have set interest rates more to suit the South of England than the UK in general.

So if they have to use a blunt instrument to deal with an economy of 60million people irrespective of differences within that economy how is the situation going to improve by using an even blunter instrument for an economy of over £300 million people.

The ECB is situated in Franfurt and Germany has a population of 80million+. In making future interest rate decisions are the economies of Porugal, Greece and Scotland going to have as much consideration as that of Germany.
186

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 05/03/2009 11:46:50
KEEP GOING Independence for Scotland.Parliament for the English.
These Nose inthe Money Trough politicians believe we are incapable of surving on our own....Look at the mess they have made of governing we could not do worse
187

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05/03/2009 11:56:35
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Alan B,

05/03/2009 11:58:29
#Ugly George

Firstly my point about uk monetary policy is not against the mpc but uk monetary policy over the past 30yrs.

I support having the mpc as a way of setting interest rates and supported that decision to make the boe indepedence and think they have done a good job within the remit they have been set. The problem is brown failed to put a comprehensive economic policy in place. Target cpi inflation and remove housing inflation from interest rate policy you have to put something else in its place. I support quantitive controls over mortgage lending and capital requirements over banks.


Regarding the euro. It is not about how many people the interest rate/monetary policy is set for. That is irrelevent.

UK interest rates are set for a much small area but are over the past decades less appropriate for the scottish economy than the euro rates or DM rates before that.

As you stated a scottish currency would have the best monetary policy but has the disadvantage of currency fluxuations.

As such the uk joinning the euro as a whole would be the best option. Scottish membership of the euro itself the next best option. Sterling without the north south divide and south east housing inflation etc with government addressing these issues may offer a good alternative to the euro. But not a sterling zone with interest rates massively scewed to deal with such a big monetary policy needs. If the uk was within the euro the south east economy and inflationary issues would have much less opportunity to artificially push up interest rates.



189

IainGlasgow,

05/03/2009 11:59:09
Maybe not 1,000 police yet but around 450 two months short of half way through their term that could be 900 by 2011 if recruitment continues at the same rate. Again not the target figure of 1,000 but in any test or exam I've ever sat, 90% would not only be a pass but an A grade

I don't think anyone believed the 1,000 officers were going to suddenly appear in the first week of May 2007 even if the opposition parties would like us to believe that's what the SNP were promising. As for the Tories claiming they 'forced' this - a minority government needs to negotiate and when you need to negotiate you have to give your opponents room to demand more and get the impression they secured a concession.
190

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05/03/2009 11:59:33
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Gordon S.,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 12:02:47
Dear Labour.. go ahead gloat for a bit...

Just remember how you felt when the SNP won the election.. sheer defeat! Well if you keep up this charade you'd better get used to it! The Scots will see to it.
192

Alan B,

05/03/2009 12:02:49
#Ugly George

Consider why the uk governments have refused publish scottish inflation figures. They know it adds fuel to the fire that uk monetary policy is inappropriate for scotland and they are not willing to take the tough decisions to address that.

193

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05/03/2009 12:03:31
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arc of insolvency,

05/03/2009 12:03:32
At last someone willing to stand up for the two thirds of Scots who voted against this in the 2007 Scottish elections.

What an arrogant man Salmond truley is. It goes to show the SNP are completely self intrested.
195

IainGlasgow,

05/03/2009 12:05:10
#166

I wonder what Labour's private polling evidence suggests.

Then of course the figures need to be adjusted to account for the likelihood of a Tory UK government being in office (with no chance of labour getting back in for years) at the time of the referendum - could result in as much as a 5-10% swing in favour of independence.

196

Ewan M,

05/03/2009 12:05:39
Well done time to start standing up against this gross failure of a SNP government.
197

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05/03/2009 12:05:49
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05/03/2009 12:06:59
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05/03/2009 12:08:05
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,

05/03/2009 12:08:12
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05/03/2009 12:08:53
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05/03/2009 12:10:35
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Tartan Viking,

05/03/2009 12:12:19
Astonishing that any nation would deny it's citizens the right to vote on such an important issue as this.

#224 The most self centered people in government are the current incumbents of Westminster, who grow richer by the year on self-voted perks to their salaries, pensions and expenses to such an extent that they are in the same sleaze league as the discredited bankers.
There is only one difference though - the banking rules can be changed but no citizen of this country has the authority to change the rules that these sleazeballs play to.
204

The Master,

05/03/2009 12:12:50
#220 European Scot: "At the next Scottish Elections, those party to denying the Scots a referendum will be rewarded for their refusal in allowing this basic democratic process to take place."

There again, it may well be that Nats like you completely fail to grasp the indifference of the great unwashed out there when it comes to this issue. Remember how your "penny for Scotland" slogan just begged the question and completely failed to get the patriotic response you Nats assumed?
205

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05/03/2009 12:20:03
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Arfur,

05/03/2009 12:20:44
The unionist parties have just guaranteed that there will be a majority SNP government at the next election. Been talking about it at work and of the 8 folk at my bank of desks 4 are SNP, 3 Labour and one Lib dum for some reason. Two of the Labourites have today turned to the SNP.

This will be the final straw for a lot more folk.
207

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05/03/2009 12:21:35
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European Scot,

05/03/2009 12:35:41
234 The Master

" There again, it may well be that Nats like you completely fail to grasp the indifference of the great unwashed out there when it comes to this issue."

The only people 'failing to grasp' are the Unionist politicians in Scotland.
It won't just be the pro-Independence voters who will react to this denial of a vote in a referendum, those against Independence will also be aggrieved.
As for indifference, the Independence of your country is a rather important subject. It tends to be a strong, emotive issue, and even the most politically indifferent of individuals, may well stagger into a polling booth to register a protest vote at being denied a say in the matter.
Gray's Party, in particular, will pay heavily for this stance.
209

Alan B,

05/03/2009 12:39:02
Have labour just prejudged Calman or do have they controlled the outcome.

By ruling out a referendum what happens to calman? Powers were given to scotland via the scottish parliament by a referendum. Are labour going to remove powers from the scottish parliament without a referendum. Are labour going to give more powers to the scottish parliament without a referendum.

Labour seem clueless. No intelligence and no consistency, honour or honesty with a contempt for democracy.

If they ideologically supported granting powers to the sp by getting the concent of the people via a referendum how can they change the powers of the parliament in any meaningful way without also gaining the concent of the people via a referendum.

You either believe in parliament deciding or support the concept of referendums in major constitutional issues. Supporting only referendums when it suits is the policy and belief system of dictators and facists.
210

Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 13:04:50
Hiccup?
211

Libertarian!,

05/03/2009 13:09:55
#208 > Many thanks for your intelligent complementary
reply!
I should reckon you were educated in some for-off fee paying establishment!
212

The Master,

05/03/2009 13:13:13
#240 European: "As for indifference, the Independence of your country is a rather important subject. It tends to be a strong, emotive issue"

Funny that anti European parties such as UKIP look unlikely to make any long term headway, then!

In any event, many feel, like myself, that Britain is their country.
213

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 13:17:45
Wetminster elections, Cameron in charge and seats s[;it between Labour, SNP and (together) the Libdums and Tories.

Stage set for battle royale with the "English" tories.

Holyrood elections and SNP majority.

Referendum noooooo?
214

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05/03/2009 13:18:53
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215

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 13:29:40
Gordon going for a general Election and a quick one after the G20 and the Obama bounce?

Or is he just plain stupid?
216

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 13:31:44
Let battle commence!
217

Jimmy Le Pie,

05/03/2009 13:32:22
#247 Faux Cul,

Stupid, plain stupid!
218

The Master,

05/03/2009 13:33:22
#264 Democratic: "#244 And you are quite right to feel that Britain is your country.
Tell me how you felt regarding the refusal of Gordon Brown to allow a referendum on the new European Treaty after promising one in his manifesto?"

I felt indifferent. I pride myself on my almost complete lack of nationalist feeling, in either a Scottish or a UK context. Indeed, I'd be seriously worried about myself if I found chippy Nationalist ravings coming into my head!
219

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 13:34:12
Did I see the Halebob Comet in the sky last night?

Is this a mass suicide cult in Holyrood; Tories, ZanuLab and Libdums?

Bad haircuts and new trainers all round!
220

Miss H,

05/03/2009 13:35:32
What's interesting to me is that the Lib Dem Conference this weekend are discussing fiscal autonomy, to which they are committed. Are they seriously going into the 2011 election saying that they want to introduce radical changes without a referendum? or are they going to say that they are committed to their referendum but not the SNP's? A bit of huimility would be in order on that one I would have thought. The SNP are in government, the Lib Dems are not.

Same goes for Labour. Either they are going to go into the election defending the status quo - and they will be dead in the water if they do that after UK Labour takes a trouncing at Westminster and we have a Tory government again - or they are going to propose reform without a referendum.

They have not thought this through in other words - typical short termism.
221

Jimmy Le Pie,

05/03/2009 13:35:32
Any word on when Comrade Broon is going to hold his much vaunted Britishness Day?? or will it be British Bankruptcy Day??

I hear the printing presses are ready to start churning out money tomorrow.

What prudence from the man who has already saved the world!!!
222

Miss H,

05/03/2009 13:38:13
253 75 billion of new money.

Must admit that's a power I would quite like to have myself, to create new money.

I can't guarantee it would all find its way into the wider economy however .............
223

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05/03/2009 13:42:35
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Jimmy Le Pie,

05/03/2009 13:43:46
#254 Miss H

Just as long as the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption 'activists and members' get their rightful share.

How much has Comrade Blair pocketed recently??

How's David Marshall, ex Glasgow East MP, managing his finances during this depression??

Is John McVicar, ex GHA member and New Labour Sleaze 'activist' managing without claiming his fraudulent benefits??
225

Alan B,

05/03/2009 13:47:28
#Miss H

If the lib dems do support full fiscal autonomy, (the most i have heard so far is Scott saying most taxes within the basket of taxation should be transferred to the sp) the snp should take that and go forward with a referendum on fiscal autonomy and the transfer of the other obvious powers which the lib dems also believe in.

With the lib dems, snp and greens along with margo that should get through the sp.

Over 70% of the population is reported to support some sort of move to dev max as min. As such it should pass in any referendum.

The result of this would mean that westminster would be responsible for currency, foreign policy, defence and eu memebership. Nearly everything else would be devolved. From taxation, social security and all law and order, energy and transport issues etc.

It would then result in scotland being able to focus more on what independence would actually mean rather than independence becuase of such a poor devolution settlement.


226

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 13:49:13
Tomorrows headline in "The Scotman" series---those you are highly unlikely to see

Turkeys vote for Xmas!

arf arf!

227

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05/03/2009 13:50:09
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bluehead,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 13:51:48
the labour party will now have to change their title
to be called the Undemocratic Party,for only undemocratic people anywhere would deny the the people a vote on independence,
democracy is dead in this country,
Salmond should tell the people next year when it comes up again that the labour have denied the people their rightful choice,then call an election,then the will get the majority they need,
Brown and his mob have stunk out the whole country,they are an embarrassment to the british people.
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05/03/2009 14:07:28
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 14:11:54
#243 No bother, and you shoudl guess wrong, I went to a state school in Dundee.
231

Brian Hill,

05/03/2009 14:24:09
No Hamish, London Labour hasn't killed off anything, it's only changed it's policy yet again and it will change it again before 2010 because of the result of the European Elections this year and subsequent opinion polls showing the SNP well ahead as we enter the General Election year and Referendum year of 2010.

That, and the opinion of the public being quite definitely in favour of the Referendum will quickly focus minds in support of said Bill....those minds which wish to remain in politics that is.
232

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 05/03/2009 14:24:56
i suggest everyone, regardless of political preference. go out and buy a wheelbarrow? we are about to print 150 billion pounds to solve our depression problem? it won't work! here comes inflation! like nothing you've ever seen in this country! so i bet every unionist in scotland is screaming for independence in 8 months! even this paper! if you belive in a god, start praying!
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 14:27:26
#263 When it comes to Labour you might have a point but I do not know how you can accuse the Lid Dems and Tories of being anti-democratic when they are doing exactly what they said they would do in their manifestos.

It's also a proof of absolutely nothing (except that there isn't going to be a vote this parliament).
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05/03/2009 14:27:27
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05/03/2009 14:32:14
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2009 14:36:07
The referendum will happen. The Unionists parties will back down rather than risk a public backlash.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2009 14:47:53
An excerpt from NuLabour's policy handbook:

Devolution is an event not a process ! Devolution is a process not an event ! Bring it on. Don't bring it on. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. I saved the world.........
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The Master,

05/03/2009 14:56:15
#265 tartangladbach: " here comes inflation! like nothing you've ever seen in this country!"

Some of us would actually welcome this! I won't be crying into my (soon to be hit by the Nats) glass of wine if the value of my various buy to let mortgages is eroded in real terms LMAO!
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05/03/2009 15:01:58
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European Scot,

05/03/2009 15:06:32
244 The Master

" Funny that anti European parties such as UKIP look unlikely to make any long term headway, then! "

" In any event, many feel, like myself, that Britain is their country. "

UKIP, who ? Has their level of support actually reached double figures yet ?
Although having European as part of my moniker, I would never consider European as a Nationality, but then of course I wouldn't consider British as such either.
I was born in Scotland, not in Britland.
British isn't actually a Nationality. English, Scottish, Irish and Welsh are Nationalities.
The British passport is a document issued by a political State.
It also has European Union printed across the top of it.
Neither Britain, nor Europe, are Nations.
So what is your Nationality Master ?
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RufusT-Firefly,

05/03/2009 15:10:27
213 Conan the Librarian™,05/03/2009 11:37:34
202
Rufus, a Michael Jackson concert or fifty ?
====================================================

Yes Conan fifty. Unbelievable eh.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2009 15:15:24
274 Shredder

What strange logic. What if more than 50% voted in favour of independence?
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05/03/2009 15:31:13
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Shredder,

05/03/2009 15:31:25
#277 Connaught: "What strange logic. What if more than 50% voted in favour of independence?"

Would this be under the Nats' "consultative" (ie meaningless) question or a fair "separation: yes or no" type question? The distinction makes all the difference in the world, you know!
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Satire above all,

05/03/2009 15:42:14
I CAN'T wait for the next election here in Scotland. There is going to only one winner of that exercise and three clear losers, Yes...definately...bring it on.

I love that the other parties will vote the referendum down tonight because it wll undoubtedly come back to haunt them in a more significant way than they could possibly imagine.

Just watched greys performance on Newsnight from a link provided in the thread. If you think that was bad...watch this space :-)

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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 15:45:51
#279, Shredder.

What's with your semantics?

The proposed Referendum question is the only one possible under the present Constitutional rules...........unless, of course, Westminster were to put the Unionist Alliance's, and for that matter the SNP's, preferred YES?NO question.

Why is Westminster stalling?
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pwd,

Borders 05/03/2009 15:50:23
#196 Libertarian

"Surely, the time has arrived, so that the basic right should be given to our citizens to decide what the future should hold for their country."

See 165 + That right has been present in every single election and in my lifetime the Scottish people have indicated no inclination whatsoever for independence. When there is a clear demand from the majority of Scottish people for a referendum the time will be right to have one. This has not happened. In case the point has been missed, the 17% of the electorate which voted SNP in 2007 did not constitute a majority. There is no mandate!
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 15:51:18
#280, Invictager.

Don't you know the difference between electing a Government and settling a Constitutional question?

Why do you think NuLabour made a Manifesto promise of a Referendum on the European Constitution?
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Calum Crubag,

05/03/2009 15:52:15
Is there something about democracy that Labour can't stomach?
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 15:54:44
#283, pwd.

Would you care to refer to my #284.

Where is the Mandate for a NuLabour Government? 25% of the electorate??????????????????
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Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 16:01:55
(#269) – (connaughtboy) – What makes you believe that the unionist parties risk a public backlash?

Are there not unionists who want a referendum because they want to quash any talk of independence?

What kind of backlash do you expect from these people towards the unionist parties?

Do you believe these people would simply swap sides to the nationalists?
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Shredder,

05/03/2009 16:02:08
#282 McBride: " Why is Westminster stalling?"

Just as the Nats chose their time in the manifesto to pose the question (just after an almost certain Tory GE victory), so non Nats (or "unionists", as someone like you would no doubt label them) are unwilling for a Westminster set question to be used as a protest vote against an unpopular and long in the tooth Labour Government or for the result to be skewed by the current economic turbulence.
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05/03/2009 16:02:28
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Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 16:02:44
#286 35.3% and the mandate is in their clear majority, that is how the Westminster electoral system works.

In Scotland the three Unionist parties mandate (on this issue) is in their clear majority, that's how the Scottish electoral system works.
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Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 16:06:02
What chances Gordon goes for the Westinster GE in Summmer.

Rich pickings in postal votes?
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 16:15:25
#291, Elethiomel.

You want your cake and, you want to eat it.

If we are talking percentages, as was the case, then we talk percentages. Not apples and pears!!!

Just as the Westminster Government has a duty to try to fulfil it's Manifesto commitments, so also does the Holyrood Government.

The tactic being used by the Unionist Alliance is underhand, and will be seen as such by the Scottish electorate. In trying to pre-empt a substantive vote on a Referendum, by tacking an AMENDMENT onto an unrelated issue, they are leaving themselves open to the charge of being undemocratic; a charge, IMHO, that will stick.
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European Scot,

05/03/2009 16:18:32
280 invictager

"Unfortunately you fail to take this basic chance every time but still cling to the notion "the Country" wants independence."

Elections are usually about individual Party loyalties, or sometimes involve tactical voting if your own first choice doesn't really have much of a chance.
At the next Scottish Elections it could well end up as more of a vote to establish the right to have a Referendum.
There will be those keen to exercise their right to oppose Independence, as well as those supporting Scottish Independence.
We could end up with a situation where some Unionists bite the bullet, and vote for the SNP, just to get the opportunity of voting against Independence.
I think what you say about failing 'to take this basic chance' may well have been true in the past, but in Scotland politically things have changed a great deal.
There are many who will be truly angered by this blatant move of New Labour to prevent a Referendum, and the next Scottish Elections, assuming they are run fairly, will be a reaction to that.
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 16:20:12
#289, Shredder.

The SNP chose the timing of the Referendum at a time when NuLabour were still leading in the OPs.

Westminster has had the opportunity, at a time of its choosing - the Brown Bounce, to bring forward a YES/NO Referendum. It didn't!!!

Why is Westminster stalling??????????????????
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Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 16:22:45
(#270) – (Cyber Thing) – Why do you believe that the refusal of the unionist bloc to allow a referendum is a proof of the fact that the unionist bloc are abusing the democratic process?

What is your proof to back this up?

Why do you believe that terror must be the reason for the unionist parties’ reluctance over a referendum?

What is your proof to back this up?

If subjects like these were decided in polls would there be a time when the newspapers ruled all over us?
260

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 16:23:14
#293 We aren't talking about percentages, we are talkign about majorities, that's what runs our democracy. The only reason I put in a percentage is that the one you quoted was wrong.
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Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 16:25:15
If you win enough of the vote to own enough of the parliament cake you can eat all you want, the SNP didn't do that on this issue.
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JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 16:27:55
This hypocritical U-turn hasn't killed off anything. Unionists can't avoid an independence referendum forever and they shouldn't try.

The Tories found out the price of ignoring Scotland's desire for constitutional change. Now two other parties deserve to become equally unpopular and irrelevant.
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JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 05/03/2009 16:29:24
All Labour have done is ensure they will face a losing battle at the next election. 'Don't give Scotland a voice' - it's hardly an electoral winner is it!
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Niall,

Cairnbulg Aberdeenshire 05/03/2009 16:33:42
It would appear that the three unionist parties are the sworn enemies of DEMOCRACY. By opposing the Referendum they reveal themselves to be undemocratic and dictatorial in principle by denying the Scottish people their democratic right to self determination under the UN Charter. What are the unionist parties so scared about that they will not give the people their say? Losing the trough their snouts are in? Shame on all of you!

'S Mise le meas
Niall Ban.
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 16:36:57
#297, Elethiomel.

You were comparing 2 (two) different systems.

My percentage reference is correct - 25% of the electorate.

You still have to address the difference between electing a Government and, settling a Constitutional question.
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05/03/2009 16:39:43
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Shredder,

05/03/2009 16:40:41
#300 Middleton: your post is self contradictory. An election is being held (therefore the country is democratic). How, therefore can Scotland be said not to have a voice? The UK is a representative democracy and voters failed to provide the Nats with an outright majority at the last SP Elections.

With the Tories no doubt in power nationally at the time of the next SP Elections and Labour able to present themselves as a fresh alternative to the Nats, it's very doubtful that the Nats will get an outright majority next time either. The Scottish people will have spoken once more: no referendum required!

Is Shredder right, or is Shredder right!
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pwd,

Borders 05/03/2009 16:42:53
#286 frank mcbride

I can't answer for NuLabour; I have no connection with that party or its frequent duplicity. I am concerned here with the case for a referendum on Scottish independence and, I repeat, there is no mandate. BTW, one difference between electing a government and settling a constitutional issue is that the latter often requires a two thirds majority.

#287 Invictager

Your second paragraph says it all. This, for years, has been the case for anybody with a rational and unbiased mind. My figures (17%) are for the percentage of the electorate which actually voted SNP in the 2007 election. Of the actual votes cast SNP got about a third, still a long way from a mandate considering two thirds voted for unionist parties. As I said, there is no mandate for a referendum.

Nice to welcome a visitor, and an impartial view, from Kent. I trust you'll realise that the noise generated by separatists on this site bear no relationship whatsoever to the reality of mainstream Scottish opinion, which is light years away from wanting to break up the UK. We are very British.
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Shredder,

05/03/2009 16:43:10
#303 Democratic: "Should the SNP get 30 seats we should not even bother with a referendum and just negotiate on the strength of that ."

You're taking the Michael! For a start, the SNP is not a one issue party and so can not claim a mandate for separation based solely on achieving a majority of Scottish seats at Westminster!

It's not going to happen, so just get over it, culty saddo!
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05/03/2009 16:48:07
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Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 16:55:31
http://tinyurl.com/5ajn

Something for Ewan
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05/03/2009 16:59:28
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The Master,

05/03/2009 17:06:35
#307 Democratic: " The SNP might as well disband because the rules will always be manipulated to prevent any Self Determination"

You might say that, Democratic; I'd say that the UK is a modern, democratic democracy, so nobody can see what you Nats are moaning about; and I am right this time!
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Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 17:07:54
Democratic democracy? WTF?
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Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 17:08:09
# 300

I am shaking in my wellies.

Agent Provocateur, sans opinion.
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Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 17:08:38
#309 sorry
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Publius,

London 05/03/2009 17:09:55
#301 Niall

Small spherical objects.

If a majority of Scots want independence and want it above all other political things, they will vote SNP and get independence. So far we haven't and it's not likely we ever will.
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The Master,

05/03/2009 17:10:23
#311 Roscombe: "Democratic democracy? WTF?"

It's called tautology, just as you used to be called Ayrshire Scot/Novo Scotia/Splashie/Pink Sombrero/yet another Nat Multi Moniker Troll!
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BIG EYE,

Paisley 05/03/2009 17:14:28
One Party, the SNP is prepared to risk all on the judgement of the Scottish people.
Three Unionist Parties are desperate to stop the people having any say in their future at all.

Says it all really!
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05/03/2009 17:16:55
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The Master,

05/03/2009 17:20:33
#318: I don't get the reference, but I think St George is rather fond of marzapan (when he's not slaying dragons!)

Haven't seen that poster around today, funnily enough!
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Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 17:21:42
The master - but not this time

"... just as you used to be called Ayrshire Scot/Novo Scotia/Splashie/Pink Sombrero/yet another Nat Multi Moniker Troll!"

I have never been any of these monikers.
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Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 17:22:03
305 pwb

As usual you have your head inthe sand and dont fully understand whats being said here.Let me help.

I am SNP.... I want a referendum

My sister in law is Labour...she wants a referendum

My next door neighbour is Lib dem and she wants a referendum.


So we have 100% in favour of a referendum, with only me on 33.3333 power


Got it?

How much have you saved in council tax under SNP?

How much less will you pay for your prescription charges after April?

How much are P/charges going up in England in April.

Answers on a postcard please.
284

St.George,

05/03/2009 17:24:02
You jocks aren't going to get a separation referendum,there's no need for one. What country that really wanted to be independent left any doubt in anyone's mind,for crying out loud!

If the whole thing wasn't a load of old nonsense,Scotland would have separated at the same time as Ireland,end of!
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European Scot,

05/03/2009 17:31:11
305 pwd

" I trust you'll realise that the noise generated by separatists on this site bear no relationship whatsoever to the reality of mainstream Scottish opinion, which is light years away from wanting to break up the UK. We are very British."

Spot the Unionist.

17% in 2007 ?
Do you actually believe that this figure reflects the current level of support for the SNP, and also for Independence ?
You have made no allowance whatsoever for the level of support for Independence amongst the so called Unionist Parties.
You certainly haven't made any allowance for the differences in the standing of the SNP then in 2007, and now in 2009.
It's also worth remembering that New Labour have been in government on the basis of having the equivalent of 22% of the UK electorate supporting them.
At least Blair was voted in on this basis, Brown has never been voted in, and will be maintaining his splendid record at the next 'UK' General Election.
I doubt that you ever were, or ever will be, 'a representative of mainstream Scottish opinion.'
In today's political climate you are a Brit-State supporter, desperate to prevent the the people of Scotland having a say in a Referendum.
That kind of attitude will never be representative of a Scottish sense of democracy.
Today Gray lost any credibility he may ever have had, and with it whatever was left of New Labour's principles.
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Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 05/03/2009 17:32:28
323 geoge

Keep taking the tablets and all those nasty voices in your head will soon go away.
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awantapassport,

05/03/2009 17:34:12
#323 - the 'jocks' spawned the Labour party, Labour has been the party of choice for generations in Scotland. The Labour party are no longer in touch with their core voters. Thankfully Scots are becoming increasingly aware of this - more so with the young generation. If you cannot see that fiscal autonomy (at the least) and independence (eventually) will be demanded by the Scots electorate you have your head in the sand.
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ZenBroon,

Back in the real world 05/03/2009 17:36:58
#295 "Why is Westminster stalling??????????????????"
Good question. The answer is fear.
They fear any increased focus on Scottish politics is good for the SNP
They fear a detailed cost/benefit analysis of the Union settlement
They fear they’d have to respond with ‘devolution max’, so the SNP win even if they lose
They fear an English backlash – any hostility will just feed the SNP
They fear the SNP might just win – and what would Labour do without those ‘safe’ votes?
They have no confidence whatsoever in the ‘a no vote will kill the SNP’ argument - they fear a polarisation and hardening of attitudes.
289

TWC,

Ex Labour 05/03/2009 17:39:04
I've just written to my MP & MSP a few minutes ago and told them I'm definitely not voting for them again. I wanted a referendum and Fiscal Autonomy.
But I believe we are all being played by these politicians, most of them don't care what we think they only care about their parties defined plan; we the voters are a hindrance to those plans.

I see the Knife crime figures quoted and withdrawn have been identified as a deliberate misleading of Westminster parliament ate the behest of No 10.

Some body has got to go this time.

I also watched Salmond rip up Elmer Fudd for wee snack, that's another reason for abandoning Scottish Labour they are mince, now they are confirmed liars as well.
Where are all the Scottish Labour guys who have real love of Scotland.
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 17:39:32
#305, pwd.

In the great British tradition of Constitutional Referenda, with the glaring exception of the '79 Referendum, all that is required is a simple majority of those voting.

There IS a mandate for the SNP bringing forward a Referendum Bill; they are the Government of the day.

Whether that Bill passes is another question, but a more serious question is why the Unionist Alliance is trying to subvert this right by the device of an AMENDMENT attached to an unrelated subject.
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frank mcbride,

lusitania 05/03/2009 17:43:31
#304, Shredder.

By your reasoning Zimbabwe is a Democratic country as it had an election.

That election was supervised by UN Observers.

Could you please explain your notion of Democracy more clearly???
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05/03/2009 17:45:55
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2009 17:46:32
306 shredder

Actually, you should not under-estimate the consequences of the SNP having an outright majority of Scottish seats at Westminster. Think about it.
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Shredder,

05/03/2009 18:07:52
#331 McBride: but the UN Observers refused to certify the Zimbabwe Elections as democratic.

Tell me of a UK General Election which has been widely condemned by independent observers and I'll tell you that the UK system does not meet my definition of "democratic".

#333: "Actually, you should not under-estimate the consequences of the SNP having an outright majority of Scottish seats at Westminster. Think about it."

In my view, this would almost certainly lead to a referendum question, set fairly by Wesminster. I'd have no worries for that, and defeat would be make or break for the Nats (after the Nats' almosst inevitable defeat, Salmond's "once in a generation" pledge and the Quebec experience of "neverendums" would counter any calls for a repeat for many years to come).
295

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05/03/2009 18:15:00
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2009 18:20:08
Poor wee Iain Gray was well and truly thrashed at FMQs today. So much for him getting the better of Alex Salmond.
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Shredder,

05/03/2009 18:21:10
#335: how would a "separation: yes or no" type question be rigged? Is your cherished separation so terrifying that it has to be soft peddled so as not to frighten the children?

If there were any real groundswell of opinion in your favour, the wording of any question set by Westminster would be irrelevant.
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05/03/2009 18:22:36
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Alan B,

05/03/2009 18:23:00
Looks like sheer panic from labour and the unionists. Good to see grey sticking with tradition and lying about not standing in the way of a referendum.

The unionist cannot have it both ways. Either the issue is decided by referendum or a majority within the parliament.

If the unionists want to deny the people the right to choose via a referendem despite all parties not being in favour of referendum for constitutional matters a simple majority of mps supporting independence is all that should be needed for scotland to declare independence.

Personally i think the tories will walk the next election but have few mps in scotland. Brown will have to resign and be replaced by either harman or milliband. There will be no senior scots in the labour shadow cabinet. The era of smith and cook etc has gone.

With a wounded labour party humilated and with the uk leadership no particularly interested in scotland grey will be trashed by the snp at the next election as laobur go into meltdown. The party will have been virtually bankrupted by brown trying to fight the general election. Grey may even be replaced before the next scottish election to minimise the damage.

The lib dems will be virtually wiped out and the tories will only make small gains.

A constitutional crisis will occur and Cameron will try to buy off the snp with fiscal autonomy. A referendum will probably be inevitable and labour will have handed the snp a referendum victory.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/03/2009 18:23:42
334 Not quite accurate. Salmond also said that he could not make commitments on behalf of future leaders of the SNP on the question of holding another referendum.

Gordon Brown is quite a fan of neverendums as the people of Ireland are soon to discover. He should have no problems with asking again until you get the "right" answer.
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05/03/2009 18:30:19
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Saruman,

05/03/2009 18:31:02
#339: your weakness is that you see everything from a nationalist prism. Labour will surely revive once they leave government: it only takes a few years to go by before they can present themselves as a fresh alternative both to the Tories at Westminster and the Nats in the SP.

Just look how Labour were able to win Glenrothes by exploiting the relative unpopularity of the Nat controlled local authority.
303

Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 18:34:02
(#308) – (Faux Cul) – Are you as happy with your results as I am?

Why did you find yourself compelled to find yourself this test?
304

Alan B,

05/03/2009 18:34:04
#Shredder

The thing i do not understand about people like you is: some people want independence some people do not. So as we live in a democracy we should put that to the people in a referendum. Let the people choose one way or the other and then the issue can be put to bed.

We all know the scum politicians that will manipulate for their own ends and greed. We can see what the labour party has become under blair with absolutely not ethical or moral dimension.

As such the people should view having the choice over such a matter in a similar matter to other constitutional questions like europe as too important to let politicians and the political elite dictate for their own selfish ends. The people should decide.
305

Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 18:38:19
(#309) – (DemocraticScot) – Do you enjoy conspiracy theories?

Do you know of paranoid projection?
306

Ewan Oosami,

05/03/2009 18:42:10
He can't risk the loss of all his Labour supporters who live in Scotland. It was them that got labour voted in for the last 11 years - I hope they're pleased with themselves!
307

Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 18:44:19
(#317) – (BIG EYE) – Weren’t those same three unionist parties prepared to risk all on the judgement of the Scottish people at the last Scottish Elections considering the SNP were offering a vote on independence?
308

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 18:44:29
#332
DemocraticScot,
Europe 05/03/2009 17:45:55

"By the time next Scottish election comes around 200,000 off of the electoral roll of 2007"

I beg to differ, they will still be voting but this time by post.
309

Alan B,

05/03/2009 18:44:50
#Saruman

I hardly think viewing the tories as most likely to win the next general elections is a nat prism.

Brown has been completely incompetent as chancellor and wrecked the uk economy.

Yes labour will recover at westminster but how long will it take. I think it is likely to take atleast 8 yrs. If labour swing to harman then they will struggle as they swing to the left. Alan Johnston looks a good candidate but he looks to have been pushed aside. You may get a sort of civil war within labour between the blairites under milliband and harman etc.

Blair has ripped the heart out of labour and england do not general vote labour. Even the last election the tories won the popular vote. Cameron will ensure that a more fair cut of the seats will install the tories in power after initially gaining power.

I think in scotland the snp will walk the next election as the uk media tend to attack the weaker of the 2 uk parties. As such labour will start getting a poor press in tv media. The tories will surely address the labour biase of the bbc that blair created.

The problem for labour in the sp is they are very very poor quality. Lets face it the other 3 parties have msps far better that labour.

I think the lib dems will struggle in the next scottish election. A pity as they have policies that could be beneficial and address constitution issues but they have been badly lead and positioned.

An snp who have not done particular brillaintly the general election will i think win much bigger majority in the sp. Labour will not be able to do all the scare stories about £5,000 per person again.









310

Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 18:45:33
"Just look how Labour were able to win Glenrothes by exploiting the relative unpopularity of the Nat controlled local authority."

Or maybe the rigged postal vote. Where are the returns btw?
311

Shredder,

05/03/2009 18:49:07
#331 Alan B: the UK is a representative democracy and the people democratically elect these representatives. Referendums are rare in our tradition (perhaps because of fears of voter apathy following historically low turnouts in many areas).

What's your problem (other than being a Nat!)
312

Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 18:50:20
#337 Shreder

how would a "separation: yes or no" type question be rigged?

I respectfully refer the questioner to my earlier post

#349
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05/03/2009 18:52:20
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Faux Cul,

05/03/2009 18:52:33
#343
Ewan Randall,
05/03/2009 18:34:02

Yes I was, happy as I could ever have expected.

Didn't seek it out, the link was sent to me by a friend, a journo curiously.
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05/03/2009 18:53:45
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Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 19:00:23
I miss her already ...


tinyurl.com/azmqac
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TWC,

05/03/2009 19:03:43
342 Saruman,
Saru
I fear that Labour are not the party I once supported and todays performance I think has finally swung me towards the Nats. I am thoroughly sick of being disappointed by them and their lies , then I have to listen to Gray being Tortured by the Big Steak Pie. Bring back Wendy.

BTW will everybody please stop answering the questioning Troll Mouse.
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Newton_Invented_Gravity,

05/03/2009 19:03:52
I don't think there's ever a bad time to become independent.The whole point of independence is that you have power of your own affairs-you want to have that in bad times as well as good. (especially in bad times I would have thought).

Gray is being disingenuous to say the least. Is he saying that when we come out of a recession he will support a referendum?
Someone in the media should ask him this.
319

Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 19:07:11
(#355) – (Democratic Scot) – Why should I deprive you of your gainful employment?

“Are you this boring in real life?”

Why are you fantasizing about me?
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Hugh Roscombe,

05/03/2009 19:09:57
"Why are you fantasizing about me?"

'cos you come across as a real babe?
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05/03/2009 19:13:57
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05/03/2009 19:19:00
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05/03/2009 19:30:58
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05/03/2009 19:32:22
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05/03/2009 19:36:46
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05/03/2009 19:38:21
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Ewan Randall,

05/03/2009 19:49:45
(#362) – (Hugh Roscombe) – You too?

Did you want me to act like a wee pig for you cheeky?
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Eve,

Scotland 05/03/2009 21:21:01
Is there really nothing that can be done untill 2011?

Their must be somthing that us Scots can do to get our refendum in Scottish independence in the near future.

It's such a sad day and sadly it won't be the sadist day cause we'll have at least another few years of being down graded and demoralised by the union. Just you wait they don't think twice about doing things that may harm us BUT the always think twice about doing the things that may help us.
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05/03/2009 22:23:31
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Brian Hill,

06/03/2009 00:06:21
"A REFERENDUM on Scottish independence ***appeared*** all but dead last night...."

Labour haven't killed off anything, the Bill will be presented to parliament on time in 2010.
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 06/03/2009 00:21:27
"If nothing else, the fact that proper, ground-breaking legislation has ground to a halt after just two years of a parliamentary term is hardly a good recommendation for minority government."

Scottish voters realize this, that is why they will hammer the undemocratic parties that have nothing but contempt for the people of Scotland and vote in an SNP majority at the next election.
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famous 15,

Edinburgh 06/03/2009 00:23:05
Democracy is a good thing and perhaps the Onionists should support democracy. I certainly wish to vote on Independence. I might just vote for it being a democrat!
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Dark Lochnagar,

Symington 06/03/2009 00:32:16
In this "Politics" section of this paper I count 7 stories involving the SNP. 6 are anti SNP. Can anyone at the paper explain that?
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06/03/2009 00:43:15
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cabrach loon,

inverness 06/03/2009 08:57:24
No need to rush, just wait until after the next Westminster election and once the instability has settled down and the SNP has made some more achievements. Scotland needs confidence, there are more small countries in the world that do fine. Copy Switzerland, so similar but so much better!
Zanulabour are brilliant at scoring their own goals, shooting themselves in the foot and destroying what they have / remember too Mandy is a communist and Broon not far off it either!
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William of the Clan MacKay,

06/03/2009 20:06:06
SCREW YOU LABOUR UNIONISTS!!!
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Unrepentant Dinosaur,

Scotland 07/03/2009 09:56:43
The most damning thing about all this is that it appears that Wendy Alexander is looking like the best Labour leader they've had. At least she had the confidence in the Scottish people to deliver what she believed to be the right answers.
As for the economic problems we are facing. Who was it that took credit for a Tory surplus? Who was it that ran it into a deficit? Who was it that let the banks do what they liked and then had to use all our money to undo the problem? Who was it that forced through a deal that resulted in public money being used to prop up both Lloyds and HBOS when it might have been possible to broker a deal that saved HBOS and Scottish jobs without vast sums of taxpayers money? Who is telling us that we should be grateful that he is sorting out a mess that he largely created with resources that should be going to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? Which party is that has constantly swiped large sums of money out of Scottish funding and then crowed that the SNP couldn't do their sums? It's easy to keep the opposition from scoring if you keep moving the goals. Then again Labour have scored enough own goals to keep the game interesting and with supporters like the Scotsman and their impartial articles and journalism that can't even rival the Sun on a bad day they don't really need any opposition to look silly. The best we get is rather puerile jibes about Alex Salmond being an egotist from Labourites who believe in their divine right to rule.
Sounds to me like we would have been a lot better off without a crowd of Westminster scroungers who can't be trusted to run a raffle let alone a national economy and if the SNP did cease to have a function wouldn't all the NuLabour supporters rejoice in being in a truly socialist Scotland that was socially just and democratic or are all you NuLabour guys secretly scared stiff that they'd screw us up even faster than the UK? Easier to be anti-SNP than pro-labour? Makes you think unless you are some of the
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Unrepentant Dinosaur,

Scotland 07/03/2009 10:00:04
Last post continues: NuLabour die-hards on this discussion board.

With the chopping off of the part of my posting I rest my case about the rather lack-lustre quality of this parochial publication.
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S.M.D.,

Edinburgh 08/03/2009 01:00:47
They were wrong about the trams and they ARE wrong about this!
It's time that Scotland had it's political freedom back.

How does the song go"And I can't understand, why they rule our land"...
I will never understand!
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Ian from Gala,

Galashiels 09/03/2009 22:19:28
So suddenly we can't consider a more self government because times are tough? Get real! this is the very time that we should be taking more control of our national affairs. Let's not kid ourselves that the UK government is any good with our money - it's the most wasteful government in UK history and it's leaving my children a legacy of enormous debt. Let's get back to small government and start paying attention to value for money in the way we use tax-payers' cash! The Labour Party must not think it can dictate the political future of Scotland. Don't they realise we lost respect for unionism a long time ago, and that we are fed up paying the price of unionist decision-making.
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redcliffe62,

12/03/2009 15:03:22
in 1947 two milion scottish votes (sic.) were rejected as a mandate to discuss devolution.
a bad bill which i stuggled to support still got over the line in the 70's despite the fearmongering and deceit on what the oil was worth.
tories were anti anything that supported change and their position has not changed; what has is the perception that they ruined scotland and spent money on projects in england from the huge windfalls they got and hid in the national accounts.
without th eoil healry's visit to the imf might have produced a different outcome, as the pollies had done a terrible job of balancing the books.
the assembly came up again only after the snp threat became too strong once again. it is only when the union is threatened by a majority that the views of anyone wanting scottish control will be considered.
tavish might as well join the labour aprty as there is no discernible difference in how they vote, albeit they calim to have different policies.
the eu referendum did not take place due to the fact the result would have been a NO, the scottish one must be stopped as the financial meltdown means people are not frightened of the snp, they probably feel they cannot be any worse so now perhaps is the time to give them a go, albeit 30 years too late to have scotland's economy secured long term.
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redcliffe62,

12/03/2009 15:05:10
the approach from th eunionists might be, not worth doing now as we fooled you that scotland was inferior and financially weak, but the game has changed and now scotland really is weak.
play on brown's incompetence to save the union; a tack tavish seems to be suggesting!

 

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