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Oil price fuels fresh row on Scots 'deficit'



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Published Date: 21 June 2008
SCOTLAND'S economy would have had a budget deficit of £2.7 billion last year – even with its "geographical share" of North Sea oil revenues, official figures have found.
Without oil revenues the same Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) report showed that the deficit would have been £10.2 billion.

But the figures – drawn up by Scottish Government statisticians, who insisted there was no ministerial
interference – also suggest that Scotland is in a stronger position than the rest of the UK if oil is taken into account.

The new report, which goes to the heart of the debate over whether Scotland could survive financially as an independent nation, is the first GERS investigation to be published under the SNP administration.

The SNP seized on a figure that suggested Scotland would have a budget surplus of £837 million if it was given 83 per cent share of North Sea revenues. The surplus changes to a deficit of £2.7 billion when capital costs for projects such as roads, schools and hospitals are included.

The figures were calculated on an average price of $65 per barrel during 2006-7. The 2008 average figure is $120, a point John Swinney, the finance secretary, was keen to emphasise. "As North Sea oil revenues soar, the City accountancy firm Grant Thornton estimates that Scotland's surplus would now stand at some £4.4 billion," he said.

But the figures have been disputed by the UK Treasury, which argued that some costs have not been included, such as Scotland's share of nuclear power station decommissioning costs.

"The fact of the matter is that in Scotland borrowing is higher than the rest of the UK; tax receipts per person are lower and spending per person is higher," a Treasury spokesman added.

The Scottish Government accused the Treasury of double standards in its argument.

"They want us to use the actual spending in Scotland for decommissioning because it is greater here, but on things like defence spending they use the per capita formula when most of the money is spent in the south of England," a source close to Mr Swinney said.

But the Centre for Public Policy for Regions, an independent think tank based at Glasgow University, issued a warning to the SNP.

Professor John McLaren said: "There are some difficult questions to be answered here. Oil is not a product that can be relied upon for the long term. Its price fluctuates and the amount coming out is reducing.

"This report shows that something has to be done about the underlying £10 billion deficit if Scotland were to be independent. And if the SNP create an oil fund they have to remember that would take money away from balancing the books."

The analysis was supported by the pro-independence Greens, who have warned that peak oil production has now passed and a different economic model is needed.

Derek Brownlee, the Conservatives' finance spokesman, was also dismissive. "As a fuel crisis sweeps the globe, the SNP is trying to build the case for independence on the volatile price and diminishing supply of oil," he said."The SNP seems to be highly selective in its crystal ball gazing – for example the accompanying study only runs until 2013 and ignores the North Sea Oil decommissioning costs, which might well produce much smaller or even negative oil tax revenues in later years."

Scottish Labour pointed out that the SNP used to attack the GERS report until it supported their argument.

And Tavish Scott, the Liberal Democrats' finance spokesman, accused Mr Swinney of "cherry picking", adding: "What the figures do show is a clear case for Scotland to remain part of the UK, but raise as much of its own spending as practical."

Nationalists have some hard choices to make

OIL could be the lubricant that makes the Scottish economic machine tick.

The Government and Expenditure and Revenue (GERS) report for 2006-7 confirms this but also shows that, without this unpredictable commodity, Scotland's books are in poor shape.

When all spending is taken into account, Scotland would still be running at a deficit of £2.7 billion.

This means that if Scotland were independent and continued with its same spending, then it would be largely reliant on a finite resource with a highly variable price and unknown future costs.

As the Centre for Public Policy for Regions warns, this is not a secure basis for an independent economy and if the SNP is to fulfil its dream then it needs to decide what it will do with the underlying spending deficit of more than £10 billion.

This is as true if a Norwegian-style oil fund were to be created. Any money put into a fund is less that can be used to meet the balance of payments.

So GERS may prove that Scotland would be viable as an independent country, but it also shows that the Nationalists need to start looking beyond oil and make some hard decisions between high taxation or much reduced services if they are to come up with a realistic vision.



The full article contains 853 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/06/2008 00:09:38
The SNP have said for years that the main reason for us being in charge of our own resources such as oil is so that we can use the money that comes from it (or some of it) to prepare for the time when the oil finaly does run out, strange the Scotsman forgot to mention this!

At least now the arguament has moved on from the days when unionists used to claim that Scotland even with oil revenues wouldn't be viable and lets not forget the recent (very recent), reports that show that North sea oil is going to be around longer than was thought, and then of course there's the oil on the other side of Scotland.


2

Castaway,

21/06/2008 00:21:28
Norwegian oil (Pension) fund - initial investment of £174m in 1990 and now £196bn - March 2008.
The fund, created in 1990, invests Norway's oil and gas wealth in foreign stocks and bonds to save for future generations when the oil runs out and to shield the Norwegian economy and currency from the threat of overheating through huge oil income
3

Rasco,

Inverness 21/06/2008 00:30:27
Angus Macleod,Douglas Fraser,Scotsman all seem to me to be very anti SNP when GERS was published under last lot you all took it as gospel come on you lot try and talk up SCOTLAND instead of implying we are a bunch of subsidised people,I see your friend Wendy is telling Alex Salmond to "Bring it On"again, not even allowed to comment on Douglas Fraser story. I see a joint meeting is to be held next week I wonder what anti SNP stories you will all be coming up with.
4

obeone,

21/06/2008 00:30:47
i wish the oil would run out and then we could get over this obsession. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

5

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 21/06/2008 00:37:39

No5 Not for 50 years so the case for the union gets weaker
6

,

21/06/2008 00:47:57
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Castaway,

21/06/2008 00:53:45
The north sea will continue to provide oil for another 100 years, twice as long as previous estimates, according to industry analysts.Telegraph 15/06/2008
8

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 00:53:51
The mayjority of Scots realise oil will not last and should not be relied on.

The majority of Scots also realise that Scotland should be incharge of her finances so now and in the future we can prepare for a time without oil.

This News is pretty much repeating what the Nationalists have been saying since the 1970's.
9

jerrymanders,

21/06/2008 01:02:34
Right, so which parts of the UK are economically viable within their own right? Scotland, so we are told, is not. No danger then that NI and Wales are either. Northumbria and Cumbria, no. Devon and Cornwall?. I doubt it because all the grey hair money is invested elsewhere. Dorset, ditto. Lancashire and Yorkshire, surely they don't break even? Where is the line suddenly drawn where yep, you lot are not costing the country money and in fact the ones further down the road are turning a profit? The Midlands? London is, no doubt about it, the epicentre of wealth for the nation. Yes, Old Landon Town supports the rest of us. Strange that there are few industries based there and that its main business is finance, politics and administration. The latter two cannot possibly make money, so it must be finance that produces the goods. But it doesn't. You see that financial wealth belongs to us all, not London and the Home Counties. Just as the Bank of England does not belong to London. Remember that as the oil revenue pours in. London does not subsidise Scotland.
10

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:15:50
5 obeone,

"i wish the oil would run out"

Hmm, just because the Scottish Press have not
reported, for over two weeks now, that Scottish
oil may last upwards of another 100 years does
not mean it is running out. Some people perhaps
would like us to believe it is indeed running out
and apparently some people will even be
gullible enough to believe that.

"North Sea oil 'will last for another half century'"
see - tinyurl.com/6ml3np and in fact
"'North Sea oil will last for 100 years'"
see tinyurl.com/54wl8e

The first third of our oil has been stolen
and squandered, and Scotland has consequently
paid with ample interest any monies that
we were due for being a "privileged" member
of the Unionist club. However, we now conclude
that the membership price is not worth the
benefits and we will use our own oil resources
as you say in
"providing decent services for local communities"
amongst many other things that such
a vast reserve of existing oil will enable
us to do.

And before Unionistas whinge and cringe about
it just being about the oil, Scotland is
in the very fortunate position of having much more
than just oil :

. The Global Financial Centers Top 50
Edinburgh No. 18 & Glasgow No 20
see - tinyurl.com/5t53gq
. Edinburgh - Europe's fourth largest financial centre
see - tinyurl.com/538g8w
. Royal Bank Of Scotland 7th biggest bank of the world.
see - tinyurl.com/4k8zzg
. Financial Services - £20 billion
see - tinyurl.com/6c5o5x
. Whisky - £2.5 billion
see - tinyurl.com/42gy4p
. Scottish Tourism - £4 billion
see - tinyurl.com/475jd4
. Food & Drink - £7.3 billion
see - tinyurl.com/4bhlkb
. Power Generation - £1.3 billion
see - tinyurl.com/5mtqke
. Oil & Gas revenues expected to be at least
£21 billion by 2011
see - tinyurl.com/5rmpne
. Creative Industries - £5 billion
see - tinyurl.com/428vv8
. Life Science - £1 billion
see - tinyurl.com/6c5o5x

Saor Alba
11

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:28:03
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 1: "oil prices will fall again."

Yep the sky is going to fall in :)
Well Oil prices are currently around $135 and projected
to potentially hit $200 in the next few years.
The 2006-2007 GERS was based on the actual price
of oil at that point which was about $65 a barrel.
So we don't actually need to imagine
what it would be like if oil prices were to fall
upwards of 50% we know already and it looks pretty
good. Perhaps we should be more positive and
consider the possibilities at $135 and $200, of
course with some appropriate hedging in place
to take care of fluctuations.

No matter which way you look at it revenues
from Scotland's oil are substantial
especially for a nation of only 5 million
and they are going to last for a significant
time going forward. Certainly enough time to
invest some of the money for the future.
The Norwegian's only started investing in
their oil fund in 1995 and already they have
~ £200 billion. Under the custodianship of
the British our current oil fund is
£0 , and I am sure Scotland can improve
substantially on that :)


12

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:30:13
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 2: The SNP Lied, They said "The “Scottish share” of UK North Sea revenues was 83.3% in 2006, not the 95% which the SNP insists on claiming now.

Well 83.3% is fine, much better than we are getting
just now. With either figure the SNP is
putting Scotland first and foremost and
is highlighting a significant gain
for Scotland and I suspect they are
highlighting it deliberately :)

13

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:33:34
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 3: The SNP accuses the UK Government
of wasting oil revenues when they have in
fact invested it wisely for the whole of the UK.

Wrong, "wasted" is an excellent description of
what has happened Scotland's oil revenue :

. At least £8 billion on wars
see - tinyurl.com/5pe3lg
. £36.9 Billion on Defence
see - tinyurl.com/fcqfw
. "New Trident system may cost £76bn"
see - tinyurl.com/3kub7t
. £16 billion on London's Tube
see - tinyurl.com/6j3bpk
. £5.9 billion on one London railway station
see - tinyurl.com/6yheht
. £10 billion on another London rail line
see - tinyurl.com/63mzzh
. £72 billion on the Nuclear industry
see - tinyurl.com/5nk8ws
. London Olympics "at least £14 billion"
see - tinyurl.com/6p43bv
Includes £184 million from the Scottish lottery
which would have gone to needy causes.
see - tinyurl.com/6pyd43
Also the Government hid a report that stated
the Olympics would cause a net loss of
£3 billion to areas outside London including Scotland
see tinyurl.com/69orew & tinyurl.com/6l3jeh
. £789 million on a Dome
see - tinyurl.com/6h6ezn
"squandered the opportunities" of North Sea Oil - £250 billion
see - tinyurl.com/4pywt9

14

Mercian,

UK 21/06/2008 01:42:38
I see the independence debate as reaching a peak into 2010. If things stand as they do currently with Alex Salmond popular, oil revenues high, and an unpopular UK Government (blue or red), I think it will be the greatest opportunity the SNP will ever have to persuade independence is right for Scotland.

If they fail, the SNP may as well give up on the idea...
15

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:50:31
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 4: The McCrone report is dated, irrelevant
and inaccurate.

Wrong again, it is a very relevant document which
shows the level of treachery inflicted on
the Scottish nation and all Scots Unionist
and Nationalist alike should read it in
it from cover to cover - see tinyurl.com/3sdrdg

Why if Scotland is such as trusted and
equal partner in the Union were Scots not
told of material findings of the McCrone report
at the time. Then using all available
information Scots could weigh up the merits
between staying in the Union and withdrawing
from it - we could weigh up the gains against
what we see as the worth of staying in the
Union. But no the Scots were not be trusted
to determine their own future, instead the information
was hidden from us for over 30 years in
large part to deliberately suppress
the Scottish people's drive towards
self-determination. The document is very relevant
today and shows the depth of treachery and
disdain directed at the Scottish people.

Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It,
and we have learned from our history how
our oil was stolen and squandered for 30 years.
We now have upwards of 60 billion barrels and
up to 100 years of Scottish oil left in the
ground and Scotland will not allow a repeat
of history this time. Many of the quotes from
McCrone are as relevant now as then:

. The vast majority of the oil would undeniably
belong to an independent Scotland, and
all Scots should be aware of this FACT.

"There might be some argument about where the
boundary between English and Scottish waters
would lie. At present this is considered to be
along the line of latitude which lies just north
of Berwick on Tweed, and it might perhaps
be held that it should run NE/SW as an extension
of the Border. This could have the effect of transferring the small oilfields in the south,
Auk and Argyll, to the English sector,
but wo
16

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:50:57
cont.

. The vast majority of the oil would undeniably
belong to an independent Scotland, and
all Scots should be aware of this FACT.

"There might be some argument about where the
boundary between English and Scottish waters
would lie. At present this is considered to be
along the line of latitude which lies just north
of Berwick on Tweed, and it might perhaps
be held that it should run NE/SW as an extension
of the Border. This could have the effect of transferring the small oilfields in the south,
Auk and Argyll, to the English sector,
but would not affect the main finds."

. Scotland owning a major and in demand resource
like oil will having a significant standing in
it's position on the world stage.

"As the major producer of oil in Western Europe, however, Scotland would be in a key
position and other countries would be
extremely foolish if they did not seek to
do all they could to accommodate Scottish interests."

3. We had a surplus for the last 30 years which
was stolen from us and used to prevent
Britain falling into bankruptcy. We have
paid with interest for our membership in
this unequal partnership and it is now
time to withdraw from it - there is no
trust and financially it does not make sense.

"An independent Scotland could now expect to
have massive surpluses both on its budget and
on its balance of payments and with the
proper husbanding of resources this situation
could last for a very long time into the future."
for a significant period going forward.

To dismiss the McCrone report as irrelevant
and dated is just pure hypocrisy.
17

,

21/06/2008 01:53:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:56:11
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 5: One of the favourites of course
is that the Scots are just "selfish".
Well Margaret Thatcher's henchman Bernard
Ingham tried this one and I refer
the Unionistas to the Burns quotation
"the giftie gie us tae see oorsels as
ithers see us.". Check the video clip
here the Unionistas will see exactly how
ithers see them and it ain't pretty.

"they smelt money"
"as greedy as sin as they were"
"the only thing that fueled nationalism was
the smell of oil, money and oil"
"it really is the most monstrous piety"

see - tinyurl.com/6ymamn
19

,

21/06/2008 01:59:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
20

,

21/06/2008 02:01:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
21

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 21/06/2008 02:08:18
I have had a look at Table A.1: "Apportionment Methodologies and Sources for Public Sector Revenues in Scotland (excluding North Sea Revenue)" in the new GERS Report. It contains 25 categories, of which one is a new category which did not appear in earlier GERS reports.

Of the remaining 24 categories, the methodology and/or source had been changed for the new GERS. Only six of the categories remained unchanged. This proves that prior GERS reports used flawed methodologies and/or sources and were therefore inaccurate. Whether this was purposeful or just incompetence by the UK government is an open question.

Forensic accountant Niall Aslen uncovered many of the inaccuracies in his paper "The Great Deception" (tinyurl.com/2ga3t5), which the Labour government and the Scottish press attempted to suppress. Luckily, enough people saw it on the internet before the 2007 election to discredit Labour’s claims that Scotland was running an £11.2-billion deficit. Mr Aslen’s analysis showed that Scotland actually had a £9.6-billion surplus. I hope Mr Aslen will also analyse the new GERS.
22

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 21/06/2008 02:09:56
Westminster numpties are the real subsidy junkies.
23

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 21/06/2008 02:12:16
I was walking my route and I heard a blood curdling scream eminating from the northeast. It must be AM2 bashing his wee skull against his computer monitor. All those posts claiming the infallability of GERS are now exposed as false and now he must oppose GERS as it shows that the SNP was right.

What delicious irony.
24

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 21/06/2008 02:28:54
One would think that the Scotsman would be overjoyed to discover officially that its country is not a subsidy junkie, but has been lied to for many years by its colonial masters. But you would never guess any joy from the first two paragraphs of the article.

Pity the Scotsman did not do some real investigative journalism when the McCrone report first came to light. Now it is paying for it through lost circulation.
25

Arnold Codger,

21/06/2008 02:43:18
Traquir will you please write a book or two, i will definitely buy them as will many others.
26

Castaway,

21/06/2008 03:07:03
#14/15/16 etc Traquir: Again what you wrote was interesting to read.
A big difference between now and in the past is we now have access to information on the internet which we can store on our PC HD databases for present and future use.
27

Guga II,

Rockall 21/06/2008 04:24:48
#14 Traquir.

An excellent article. If the Hootsmon had any sense they would employ you as a journalist instead of half of these insipid, New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British branch), card carrying party members they currently employ. I reckon you would help to reverse their decline into their Unionist oblivion.

Keep up the excellent work.

28

Scott Webb.......,

21/06/2008 04:25:55
Here is a real wakeup call of a vid called....Esoteric agenda :)

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6030443037963555139&hl=en
29

Scott Webb.......,

21/06/2008 04:52:50
Please watch that vid link in last comment and send it to your friends.....they will thank you :)
30

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 21/06/2008 06:00:03
Oil is a commodity. Money isn't. "The trouble with money is, that money is not really money." - Eddie George.

The price of oil can be fluctuated but it always has a tradeable value as long as we rely on hydrocarbons for motive power. (10 gals of petrol IS putting one hell of amount of energy in your tank though other means are not impossible.) Or is it the value of your money that goes up and down and generally down when it's left to private banks to issue it.

The case for scottish independence would be even more compelling supposing there was no oil in the North Sea!

What is it with academics and think tanks? Are they dipped like sheep and emerge spouting always verbiage before sense.

It's ever possible to cheapen a product and charge more for it. It's the UK way. Like buying a house.
31

Zorbathejock,

Paphos 21/06/2008 06:00:49
Independence aside,what will happen to Britain when the oil runs out ? Or have the unionists some great plan prepared which will keep the economy going? We haven't had much leadership from the unionists since oil was discovered so I cannot see much hope for the future from them.An independent Scotland could make a much better fist of managing itself than the way it is now.
32

Jimmy the Pie,

21/06/2008 06:08:23
Traquir.

Excellent postings yet again.

You should show the Hootsmon 'journalists' how it's done!!
33

Scott Webb.......,

21/06/2008 06:16:02
Here is an example of what happens when a country takes control of its own oil....its another peach of a vid :)

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3804528229102317499&hl=en
34

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 21/06/2008 06:32:09
Unionists intend to slink by subterfuge into the euro-Zone. It's not all bad news for England though high end jobs will tend to move to the Continent and lowerpaid work to England. But Bristol will still be in aerospace and there'll be design-engineering for the automotive trades. The City will be at laundering drugs and arms money like nothing's ever changed.

If any money's spent north of Manchester and Newcastle, it will be done very grudgingly and the tabloids will tell it so. This is the unionist mind-set.
35

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 06:55:27
Oil,Oil,Oil all you can drink Glug Glug Glug barrels full ,bottles full, baths full........

Oil as far as you can see££££££££££ and its all ours ha ha ha ah rich we are rich ha ha ha ha ha

£90 billion £100 billion £200 billion.£ billion billion billion billion ££££££££££££££

all ours ha ha ha vote snp and be rich really really rich............Patriotism well ££££££££££££££££££££ is where it and the snp are at it
36

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 07:29:37
I have made the point before that many unionists and nationalists are obsessed with the narrow oil debate. The decision about independence is not wholly an economic one.

That being said - one cannot ignore the economics entirely. However, I am more interested in the post-oil economic situation. In particular the types of economic policies that should be implemented to allow Scotland to become less reliant on oil.

I know much has been made of the Norwegian situation, where they, sensibly, have built up a petroleum fund (The Government Pension Fund of Norway) of some $400 billion. It is the largest pension fund in Europe and the second largest in the world.

The theory is sound if you have enough of a surplus to build up a substantial fund.

My understanding is, and correct me if I am wrong, is that a surplus of around £4.4 billion per annum (not the £2.7 billion in the article) could exist at current market prices. This sounds great until you compare it to the surplus of around £44 billion that Norway will generate in the current year.

Could an oil fund be built up that is comparable with Norway's?

With a £2.7 billion (or £4.4 billion) surplus that is very unlikely.

The only way I think it could be achieved is by a serious re-appraisal of fiscal policy. By examining taxation and expenditure policies it could be possible to increase the surplus to a much higher level.

That would need a government with balls to tackle Scotland's bloated public sector and grossly inefficient public services.

Whether there is one ready to take such action is another matter.
37

Iain green,

Haddingon 21/06/2008 07:38:31
Can John McLaren (Prof) advise why single source economies such as that of Saudi Arabia seem to get along ok with oil as their main product?
However, the key point in this report is that without oil, the UK would be a bankrupt third world economy.
It is clear that oil is so over-ridingly important, that any tactic is allowable to keep Scotland and its reserves within the union.
38

obeone,

21/06/2008 07:45:12
"Scotland owning a major and in demand resource
like oil will having a significant standing in
it's position on the world stage."

Anyone agreeing with this needs to see a shrink to discuss their inadequacy issues
39

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 21/06/2008 07:56:19
One day the Scots will waken up and realise that they are the last people in the world to have the courage or confidence to vote for themselves. I hope to live to see it however.
40

Castaway,

21/06/2008 08:13:19
SOARING oil prices would give an independent Scotland a £4.4 billion budget surplus, making it one of Europe's richest countries, according to a new study by leading accountants
The surplus would allow Alex Salmond to maintain existing levels of public spending, while cutting corporation tax from 28% to 12.5%, reducing income tax by 5p in the pound and still having £2 billion every year to invest in a Norwegian-style oil fund to safeguard Scotland against a future decline in North Sea oil revenue.
The study, based on Treasury oil revenue forecasts and official spending figures, has calculated that, without money from the taxation of oil and gas, an independent Scotland would have an underlying deficit of £7.8billion. But when £12.2billion of oil and gas revenues are included, Scotland would have a surplus of more than £4billion.

Many oil analysts believe the cost of oil will rise soon to $150 a barrel and could reach $200 by 2010, because of demand from China and India and concerns about the security of supply.
Other economists are more sceptical. Thorsten Fischer, senior economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland, expects the price to fall by 30% over time, which would lead to a more modest surplus.

Maurice Fitzpatrick, an accountant with Grant Thornton, who has examined the economics of an independent Scotland for the past decade, said: “There is no doubt about it. The figures point to a very rosy picture." The Sunday Times May 18, 2008
http://tinyurl.com/6dha2o

P.S.The north sea will continue to provide oil for another 100 years, twice as long as previous estimates, according to industry analysts.Telegraph 15/06/2008
http://tinyurl.com/54wl8e
41

puskas,

East kilbride 21/06/2008 08:15:10
No44, obeone.

Your inadequacy shows.
42

Gdgy,

dndy 21/06/2008 08:19:24
lets take this dodgy document at face value and treat it as gospel. For Scotland to take adavantage of the oil we would have to be independent. But the SNP govt is in no hurry to start the legislation required to have a referendum on independence! Why this delay if it is sooooo obvious that the oil would give Scotland such a benefit?
COULD it be that the SNP are not acting in the best interests of Scotland but in the best interests of themselves and their feeble grip on power (and reality?)???
43

thinking,

Scotland 21/06/2008 08:22:00
I did a web search on oil and gas and found that there are many fields around the UK, not just Scotland. There are also land based sites too.
Some fields are still producing because of more recent technology but you can also read how costs of extraction are getting much higher so that, eventually, some areas will be too costly to work.
Skills that made Scots famous and brought industry should be encouraged rather than relying on oil and gas.
44

The Answer,

Glasgow 21/06/2008 08:26:35
#38 yukyfingers

Low skill jobs are for scotch like yourself!
read and weep.

51 million population England
5 million population scotsland
3 million population Wales

Undergraduate students qualifying to enter/study at Oxford university! (Oxford and Cambridge ranked 2 and 3 in the world)

9,141 England
362 Wales

239 scotsland

Well done the welsh education system.

tinyurl.com/5ehwfp
45

Peeablo,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 08:26:36
Strange (not really) that The Scotsman focused on the Scottish deficit as though it was a problem. ALL countries run with a deficit barring a few. The UK deficit in in excess of £32 billion with 100% of oil revenues.
This will rise even more as Labour try and borrow their way out of current difficulties with the country having nothing to show for the money.

Scotsman Editor - your paper is the equivalent of Sky/Fox News and articles at The Sun level.
46

MoClana,

Stirling 21/06/2008 08:29:05
Amazing is it not.....when reports of Scotlands oil lasting for at least another 50 years and possibly 100 you dont hear a dicky bird.....and then you see the usual Unionist cabal insisting we are still too inept as a nation to control our own financial affairs!

Dark forces are at work within the media in Scotland, brought on by the increasing realisation that independnece is on the map.

Saor Alba
47

The Answer,

Glasgow 21/06/2008 08:44:15
#52

"Inept as a nation"

The thought never crossed my mind!



Undergraduate students qualifying to enter/study at Oxford university! (Oxford and Cambridge ranked 2 and 3 in the world)

9,141 England
362 Wales

239 scotsland
48

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 21/06/2008 08:47:03
#52 Saor Alba but not just yet Lord not just yet.
49

eric,

21/06/2008 08:56:33
oil or no oil i would like to become a scottish problem ,what a nice burden eh.
50

Joe,

Sullam Voe 21/06/2008 08:59:36
As Arnie said "Oil be back"!..Hopefully to sort out these SNP 'pipe' dreamers..
51

gus1940,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 09:17:18
Can anybody clarify for me what are the definition of VAT, Income Tax and NI as regards to what is credited as tax paid by individuals/firms in Scotland.

N.B. Tax PAID not accounted as COLLECTED.
52

,

21/06/2008 09:19:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
53

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 09:22:08
George Soros, the billionaire financier and philanthropist, who made massive profits on the stock exchange at the expense of the incompetent Major and Lamont, claims that the oil bubble will eventually burst?

Soros is a shrewd futures investor but if we take the opposite view, and the bubble keeps ballooning, and the price of a barrel of oil spirals ever upwards, exceeding $200 or even £250, then the UK will be tipped into a severe, long term recession, and the Nationalist case for a sovereign Scottish State will become irresistible!

The Unionist parties might well end up taking desperate measures to balance the books, and could even unilaterally withdraw from the European Union and seek an economic 'Atlantic Union' with the United States of America?

The future of this unitary state would then become very precarious!



54

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 09:30:49
#58

There the reason the Calman commission are unable to hold public meetings to Debate the need for devolution. And they are unable to have a web site as they will be under endless cybernat attack.

Brownshirts anyone?


"Such meetings would be difficult to manage and open to hijack',"

http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.2353737.0.warning_over_hijacking_of_constitution_meetings.php
55

lulach mac gille coemgain,

21/06/2008 09:38:12
SCOTLAND'S economy would have had a budget deficit of £2.7 billion last year – even with its "geographical share" of North Sea oil revenues, official figures have found.

So there ARE geographical shares not being shared correctly then ?
56

Calum10,

21/06/2008 09:42:01
What Scots have always suspected has now been exposed. Unionists have been lying to the Scottish people about the economic viability of Scotland.

A more rigerous assessment under GERS has now shown that Unionist politicians have delibrately over-estimated Scotland's public expenditure and under-estimated Scotland's overall tax-take. Scotland's economy has always been in a better shape that the UK's, and that is excluding North Sea Oil.

Also we now know the value of North Sea oil to the UK economy. It has underpinned the financial stability of the UK for the past 30 years.

GERS has come back and bitten those Unionists in the @rse who preached to Scots that we were too stupid, too poor and Scotland too small to be an economically viable country.

No wonder Sir Kenneth Calman no longer wants to engage with the Scottish people on constitutional reform. He knows that he would told to his face it is England that needs Scotland and not the other way round.
57

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/06/2008 09:48:52
#58 "All I hear is stories about this f@cking oil..How about thanking the union for our army, navy and air force."

What, for sending our sons and daughters off to be killed in foreign lands meddling in affairs that are none of our business, breaking international law and wasting billions of pounds in the process that could be better spent improving our lives now and preparing for the difficult years ahead?

Wow - thanks, Union!
58

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 21/06/2008 09:55:46
Chicken manure is the fuel of the future. The exhaust gases are fowl.
59

David MacVicar,

web 21/06/2008 09:56:37
The Unionist 'message' is a predictable cliché:
Its selfish for Scots to want to control our own Energy resources, its all going to run out soon anyway, Scotland is going to go bankrupt without oil.

The UK facts:
Selfish: Almost 4 decades of consuming one countries energy revenues and spending the proceeds elsewhere - primarily SE England. That is not just selfish its tantamount to theft and deception.

Mismanagement: UK oil Fund = 0 pounds and 0 pence. Investment in diverse Scottish Economy and infrastructure: What investment? Where is it? No motorways, poor road and rail infrastructure etc. Compare to SE Englands expenditure and renewal projects.

The UK debt has grown substantially due to UK policies that Scots voted against - Nuclear power, Nuclear bombs, Illegal wars, Questionable foreign policy, Centralisation policies etc etc. UK is heading downhill fast and is with Scottish revenues AND Scottish Surplus. UK state is an albatross round our necks.

Lifetime: Oil revenues will be with us for several decades. This is a huge benefit, much more than the direct 'upstream value'. Corporation tax, Licencing rounds, Refining, huge petrochemical industry etc etc.

Oil headquarters and related companies would move to Scotland, with a better tax regime and lower asset costs.

HQs are only in London for proximity to UK Government.

The Unionists are terrified of the consequnces for the South. Eg. The only net migration of people will be from South to North. Wealth will move from centred in SE to NE.

The writing is on the wall.
60

Media 1,

cape town 21/06/2008 09:56:53
Rev S Campbell

Mr Reverend, you more than anyone should understand that human turmoil is part and parcel of who we are. Our sons and daughters have always gone off to war, Iraq is nothing new its been happening for millenia. And since you are a reverend you will note that even the god entity in the bible murdered 2.6 million people in cold blood.

What I am saying is that there is more to Scotland than just oil and without the union you would not have all those wonderful support structures and quality of life.

So be proud of Scotland and recognise that she is an IMPORTANT part of a very strong union, she is not the little English lap dog you make her out to be.
61

bill-alba,

fife 21/06/2008 10:14:02
#66 why wouldnt we have all these wonderful support structers and quality of life without the union.
We are not a proud part of a strong union we are counted as a nonentity in this union.
Iraq is nothing new but as an independent Scotland we would have our own choice to make to go or not to go to war.
I agree with your statement there is more to Scotland than oil but surely you agree that the oil is there and likely to be there for years and it is foolish for Scotland not to benefit at all from its own resources.
62

Media 1,

cap town 21/06/2008 10:19:01
bill alba

Scotland does benefit though Bill. It is all about give and take. Scotland receives as much as she gives within the union, which is why she not the nonentity that the SNP would have you believe she is.

This small English lapdog mentality is SNP propaganda, it always has been. Scotland is no lap dog, never has been.
63

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/06/2008 10:20:29
Oil issuch an insignificant commodity that the UK has fought 3 WARS in the past 25yrs. (Falklands - Antarctica Mineral Rights, GW1 & GW2).

OIL, yes OIL: NOT Democracy!!!

The Falkland Islanders, to all intents and purposes, had their British Citizenship withdrawn by the Thatcher Govt.
Does anyone believe that Democracy has been IMPOSED on Iraq?

As for the Eco-warriors, hydrocarbon fuels are the least profitable by-products of oil.

Finally, if oil is running out, it can only rise in price due to the multitude of derivatives used in many diverse industries.
The revenue accrued, over the next 50-100yrs.(known reserves), invested wisely will leave a suitable legacy for our descendants.

Our only hope of achieving this legacy is an Independent Scotland, as Westminster has proved that it has neither the vision nor the political will.
64

PaulW,

Borders 21/06/2008 10:24:11
Tory Brownlee suggests the SNP are building their case for independence on volatile oil prices. Yet these figures relate to a period when oil was around $65 per barrell. Hence they are built upon more modest rteurns from oil than are being exeprienced at the moment. He and his fellow apologists for the exploitation of Scotland's natural resources shouls reflect on just how good the figures will be when this year's data are available. Accountants Grant Thornton (not part of the SNP, last time I looked) have suggested Scotland would be £4.4 billion in surplus based on current prices. The UK would be up a creek without a paddle.
65

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 21/06/2008 10:32:31
On route #66 people walk down the streets of Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy and think something is wrong here. (in the Kingdom within the Realm). If the scottish financial aristocracy is the marvel of the Union as promoted in this paper, these burgh towns within easy commuting distance should be THRIVING.

Instead it all seems very dismal and down-market. Where has the vigour and vim once evident dissipated to?
66

Jwil,

21/06/2008 10:36:07
What it doesn't say in this article is that the method of caculating the GERS figure is more accurate and independent of government interference than it was in previous years when the Tresury cooked the books to fool the Scots into thinking that they couldn't survive on their own.

On the oil question. Why is it that many other small countries can survive very well without the oil resources that Scotland has. Oil is a bonus which would allow Scotland to modernise its infrastructure before it was anywhere near having run out. Look at the benefits it brought Shetland. Scotland is being ripped off by the UK government.

Why is it that the Labour party, the Labour party in Scotland and the Scottish ministers in Westminister and MPS want to do Scotland down? It can only be for selfish reasons. They would rather that Scotland was impoverished and not achieving its full potential.

If they were doing this in any other country they would all be in jail!

If you want to see the real situation with the GERS calculations read about it in (tinyurl.com/2ga3t5).

67

Calvinist,

21/06/2008 10:43:48
The oil argument has always been a red herring. It does not matter whether North Sea oil lasts for 10 or 100 years the days of the petrochemical industry are numbered. And a good thing too. Within the next 20 years new types of biofuels will come on line. Craig Venter (the man who cracked the human genome) is developing organisms that extract carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and can produce hydrogen or alcohol. The ultimate aim is to make bioreactors that will produce cheap electricity and the beauty of it is that not only will they not pollute the atmosphere but they will be self replicating. There are numerous other examples of this type of work- some that use artificial photosynthesis to extract energy directly from the sun and convert it into biofuels. These new technologies provided to you by the ingenuity of scientists are possibly our only hope if we wish to maintain our present lifestyle and save the planet. Any economy that is principally dependent on oil revenues is very likely to go into serious decline over the next 20 years economies that have had the vision to invest in some of these new exciting technologies will prosper. Are we investing- NO!
68

Kirk View,

Angus 21/06/2008 10:43:48
All very well ... let's go independent tomorrow ... or is there something morally reprehensible about predicating independence on the income from oil when it is oil that is killing the planet.

What use an independent Scotland if nobody can live in it in 100 years ... or will todays "independence based on oil" egos not bother about that. Where is the morality of claiming to radically reduce CO2 emissions on the one hand and look to thrive on the income from CO2 on the other.

Would it not be more honourable to sell land mines to every tin pot dictator???
69

Mcsnagpile,

21/06/2008 10:46:14
Resources have nothing to do with Nationalism or independence. If you think that independence means you can have cheaper pizzas, paid by oil revenue, then forget it.

If nationalism is not important then get rid of the Union Jack the National anthem, the old fogy’s that go with it and join a united federation of Brussels without conditions.

In fact perhaps we should abolish all sense of nationalism and become European people from landmass Europe. Most European National States as countries are relatively new---Italy, Germany, Austria- (eastern empire? - not 100 years old yet), and UK to name some biggys. Alsace Lorain and many, many, European states not to mention Basques, I am sure would rather revert back to the original patchwork that made up Europe. Why should a Rheinland state have a capital in Prussia—Berlin?? Go home King of Prussia and Kaiser Bill (Emperor) of Central Europe. Why should Brittany have a capital in Central France??

Whatever the reason for nation states a lot of boys lost a chance at life because of it.
Hear ye, hear ye, a former colony finances the self-destruction of Europe. Boundary lines drawn up based on newly invented nation states. Yee wot??

Hey! We are not having that old woman with a hooknose and knitting telling us where to put our head.

Now yer jist confusing this wee man wae a flute tae blow.
70

Edward,

21/06/2008 10:47:32
Just an observation, but why is it quoting 83% of the Oil is Scotlands, when 97% of the Oil fields are Scottish?
Upto now we have had figures of 95% of the Oil is Scottish,now this story proports that its now just 83%?
71

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/06/2008 10:55:12
So MANY postings and most of them informed and not just incoherent ramblings by those who think they have to comment on every thread.

The issue is too complex for me to understand - even though I read the newsitem - and I will leave it up to INFORMED and INTELLIGENT posters to voice their opinions and maybe then I can make some sense of this finnagling of the funds.
72

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 21/06/2008 10:59:57
Does anyone in their right mind believe a word that emanates from the Treasury, Westminster or the Unionist press that would give the slightest hint that Scotland can stand on its own feet and be successful. Of course they wouldn't. It is in their own selfish agenda to lie to us. They have done it before and they will do it day and daily. "The oil will run out shortly and we cannot rely on it being above $20 a barrel...." That was in the seventies. "Now it is a diminishing resource and finite....". Tell that to the billions of investments being put into the North Sea by the people who work in the oil business! Come up to Aberdeen and Shire and see for yourselves. All we need is the imagination, confidence and drive to enhance our other bountiful resources. Our workforce our farmers our fisheries our entrepreneurs and researchers.We have the space we have the ability we have the know-how so don't let those Unionist Jonahs brain wash us into apathy and a Domes-day scenario.For once I agree with Oor Wendy (warts and all). Bring on the Referendum now!
73

Edward,

21/06/2008 11:03:00
Not reported here (well I cant find any article on it) but Wendy Alexander has been at it again with calls for a referendum on Scotland to be brought forward
Sounds like she is under presure from Brown to have the referndum before the next General Election, which is due on or before May 2010. She wants the Scottish Government to break there timetable for the planned referendum in the Autumn of 2010, which would be after any possible date for a UK general election
She was mouthing of on Radio 4's Any Questions, yesterday which is repeated again Today at 1.10 pm on Radio 4 for those interesting in listening to the rants of an idiot
74

Edward,

21/06/2008 11:04:42
Back to this story, what I find intersting is that for Scotland, which produces more oil than Kuwait, does not enjoy the same standards as Kuwait
75

subrosa,

21/06/2008 11:07:25
#63

Many of the Scots in the British Forces would support a Scottish military. The amalgamation of the regiments was the final straw for many.
76

Boaby,

Glasgow 21/06/2008 11:10:29
Why does The Scotsman hate Scotland?
77

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:13:17
£3 Billion in the red ? just cut the number of civil servants and red tape monkeys by 70%, don't hand out money to layabouts, dont give anybody incapacity benefit who clearly doesn't need it, cut back the NHS to what it used to be (performing core medical care), don't let immigrants in until our infrastructure has caught up with our own peoples needs.

There's £10 billion for starters and there is plenty more savings to be found if the government want's to ... trouble is they are addicted to wasting our money.
78

Ugly George,

Edinnburgh 21/06/2008 11:13:28
69 Frank
There may well be oil produced from the North Sea in 50/100 years time but this is not the issue. The issue is what the rate of production will be. The latest Royal Bank of Scotland monthly oil index (April 2008) showed production falling at a rate of 14% per annum. It also said that the value of investment was being "eroded" by increased costs. This means that there is little prospect of the decline being reversed. If this decline continues then production will fall to less than half of its current level in 5 years and to 22% of its current level in 10 years.

The price of oil may or may not rise during this time but there is also rise in costs in exploiting the smaller fields which affects the companies' profitability and hence revenues. It is therefore, to say the least, doubtful how much revenue would accrue in future years. Romania has been producing oil for over 70 years but is hardly awash with oil revenues even though there oil is land based and hence cheaper to extract.
79

subrosa,

21/06/2008 11:13:32
# 80

It's incredible isn't it Edward? We used to have the best education system in the world, have always been entrepeneurs and have travelled the world improving it for others. But we Scots, for some reason, are quite happy to allow someone else to run and rob our country.

Even with all the evidence floating around nowadays about the union, most of my friends still have the brainwashed mental attitude of 'we're better staying as we are'. It's a hard fight for the SNP to get through that mentality but if they continue to govern professionally and openly, then the Scots may begin to feel more confident.

Of course there is the ministry of dirty tricks (Westminster) to handle and they 'will stop at nothing to ensure Scotland stays within the union'. I believe them. We haven't seen anything yet. Without Scottish oil the UK would become a third world country.
80

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:14:44