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Oil price fuels fresh row on Scots 'deficit'

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Published Date: 21 June 2008
SCOTLAND'S economy would have had a budget deficit of £2.7 billion last year – even with its "geographical share" of North Sea oil revenues, official figures have found.
Without oil revenues the same Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) report showed that the deficit would have been £10.2 billion.

But the figures – drawn up by Scottish Government statisticians, who insisted there was no ministerial
interference – also suggest that Scotland is in a stronger position than the rest of the UK if oil is taken into account.

The new report, which goes to the heart of the debate over whether Scotland could survive financially as an independent nation, is the first GERS investigation to be published under the SNP administration.

The SNP seized on a figure that suggested Scotland would have a budget surplus of £837 million if it was given 83 per cent share of North Sea revenues. The surplus changes to a deficit of £2.7 billion when capital costs for projects such as roads, schools and hospitals are included.

The figures were calculated on an average price of $65 per barrel during 2006-7. The 2008 average figure is $120, a point John Swinney, the finance secretary, was keen to emphasise. "As North Sea oil revenues soar, the City accountancy firm Grant Thornton estimates that Scotland's surplus would now stand at some £4.4 billion," he said.

But the figures have been disputed by the UK Treasury, which argued that some costs have not been included, such as Scotland's share of nuclear power station decommissioning costs.

"The fact of the matter is that in Scotland borrowing is higher than the rest of the UK; tax receipts per person are lower and spending per person is higher," a Treasury spokesman added.

The Scottish Government accused the Treasury of double standards in its argument.

"They want us to use the actual spending in Scotland for decommissioning because it is greater here, but on things like defence spending they use the per capita formula when most of the money is spent in the south of England," a source close to Mr Swinney said.

But the Centre for Public Policy for Regions, an independent think tank based at Glasgow University, issued a warning to the SNP.

Professor John McLaren said: "There are some difficult questions to be answered here. Oil is not a product that can be relied upon for the long term. Its price fluctuates and the amount coming out is reducing.

"This report shows that something has to be done about the underlying £10 billion deficit if Scotland were to be independent. And if the SNP create an oil fund they have to remember that would take money away from balancing the books."

The analysis was supported by the pro-independence Greens, who have warned that peak oil production has now passed and a different economic model is needed.

Derek Brownlee, the Conservatives' finance spokesman, was also dismissive. "As a fuel crisis sweeps the globe, the SNP is trying to build the case for independence on the volatile price and diminishing supply of oil," he said."The SNP seems to be highly selective in its crystal ball gazing – for example the accompanying study only runs until 2013 and ignores the North Sea Oil decommissioning costs, which might well produce much smaller or even negative oil tax revenues in later years."

Scottish Labour pointed out that the SNP used to attack the GERS report until it supported their argument.

And Tavish Scott, the Liberal Democrats' finance spokesman, accused Mr Swinney of "cherry picking", adding: "What the figures do show is a clear case for Scotland to remain part of the UK, but raise as much of its own spending as practical."

Nationalists have some hard choices to make

OIL could be the lubricant that makes the Scottish economic machine tick.

The Government and Expenditure and Revenue (GERS) report for 2006-7 confirms this but also shows that, without this unpredictable commodity, Scotland's books are in poor shape.

When all spending is taken into account, Scotland would still be running at a deficit of £2.7 billion.

This means that if Scotland were independent and continued with its same spending, then it would be largely reliant on a finite resource with a highly variable price and unknown future costs.

As the Centre for Public Policy for Regions warns, this is not a secure basis for an independent economy and if the SNP is to fulfil its dream then it needs to decide what it will do with the underlying spending deficit of more than £10 billion.

This is as true if a Norwegian-style oil fund were to be created. Any money put into a fund is less that can be used to meet the balance of payments.

So GERS may prove that Scotland would be viable as an independent country, but it also shows that the Nationalists need to start looking beyond oil and make some hard decisions between high taxation or much reduced services if they are to come up with a realistic vision.



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1

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 21/06/2008 00:09:38
The SNP have said for years that the main reason for us being in charge of our own resources such as oil is so that we can use the money that comes from it (or some of it) to prepare for the time when the oil finaly does run out, strange the Scotsman forgot to mention this!

At least now the arguament has moved on from the days when unionists used to claim that Scotland even with oil revenues wouldn't be viable and lets not forget the recent (very recent), reports that show that North sea oil is going to be around longer than was thought, and then of course there's the oil on the other side of Scotland.


2

Rasco,

Inverness 21/06/2008 00:30:27
Angus Macleod,Douglas Fraser,Scotsman all seem to me to be very anti SNP when GERS was published under last lot you all took it as gospel come on you lot try and talk up SCOTLAND instead of implying we are a bunch of subsidised people,I see your friend Wendy is telling Alex Salmond to "Bring it On"again, not even allowed to comment on Douglas Fraser story. I see a joint meeting is to be held next week I wonder what anti SNP stories you will all be coming up with.
3

obeone,

21/06/2008 00:30:47
i wish the oil would run out and then we could get over this obsession. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

4

Marky Bhoy,

Dunfermline 21/06/2008 00:37:39

No5 Not for 50 years so the case for the union gets weaker
5

,

21/06/2008 00:47:57
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6

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 00:53:51
The mayjority of Scots realise oil will not last and should not be relied on.

The majority of Scots also realise that Scotland should be incharge of her finances so now and in the future we can prepare for a time without oil.

This News is pretty much repeating what the Nationalists have been saying since the 1970's.
7

jerrymanders,

21/06/2008 01:02:34
Right, so which parts of the UK are economically viable within their own right? Scotland, so we are told, is not. No danger then that NI and Wales are either. Northumbria and Cumbria, no. Devon and Cornwall?. I doubt it because all the grey hair money is invested elsewhere. Dorset, ditto. Lancashire and Yorkshire, surely they don't break even? Where is the line suddenly drawn where yep, you lot are not costing the country money and in fact the ones further down the road are turning a profit? The Midlands? London is, no doubt about it, the epicentre of wealth for the nation. Yes, Old Landon Town supports the rest of us. Strange that there are few industries based there and that its main business is finance, politics and administration. The latter two cannot possibly make money, so it must be finance that produces the goods. But it doesn't. You see that financial wealth belongs to us all, not London and the Home Counties. Just as the Bank of England does not belong to London. Remember that as the oil revenue pours in. London does not subsidise Scotland.
8

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:15:50
5 obeone,

"i wish the oil would run out"

Hmm, just because the Scottish Press have not
reported, for over two weeks now, that Scottish
oil may last upwards of another 100 years does
not mean it is running out. Some people perhaps
would like us to believe it is indeed running out
and apparently some people will even be
gullible enough to believe that.

"North Sea oil 'will last for another half century'"
see - tinyurl.com/6ml3np and in fact
"'North Sea oil will last for 100 years'"
see tinyurl.com/54wl8e

The first third of our oil has been stolen
and squandered, and Scotland has consequently
paid with ample interest any monies that
we were due for being a "privileged" member
of the Unionist club. However, we now conclude
that the membership price is not worth the
benefits and we will use our own oil resources
as you say in
"providing decent services for local communities"
amongst many other things that such
a vast reserve of existing oil will enable
us to do.

And before Unionistas whinge and cringe about
it just being about the oil, Scotland is
in the very fortunate position of having much more
than just oil :

. The Global Financial Centers Top 50
Edinburgh No. 18 & Glasgow No 20
see - tinyurl.com/5t53gq
. Edinburgh - Europe's fourth largest financial centre
see - tinyurl.com/538g8w
. Royal Bank Of Scotland 7th biggest bank of the world.
see - tinyurl.com/4k8zzg
. Financial Services - £20 billion
see - tinyurl.com/6c5o5x
. Whisky - £2.5 billion
see - tinyurl.com/42gy4p
. Scottish Tourism - £4 billion
see - tinyurl.com/475jd4
. Food & Drink - £7.3 billion
see - tinyurl.com/4bhlkb
. Power Generation - £1.3 billion
see - tinyurl.com/5mtqke
. Oil & Gas revenues expected to be at least
£21 billion by 2011
see - tinyurl.com/5rmpne
. Creative Industries - £5 billion
see - tinyurl.com/428vv8
. Life Science - £1 billion
see - tinyurl.com/6c5o5x

Saor Alba
9

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:28:03
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 1: "oil prices will fall again."

Yep the sky is going to fall in :)
Well Oil prices are currently around $135 and projected
to potentially hit $200 in the next few years.
The 2006-2007 GERS was based on the actual price
of oil at that point which was about $65 a barrel.
So we don't actually need to imagine
what it would be like if oil prices were to fall
upwards of 50% we know already and it looks pretty
good. Perhaps we should be more positive and
consider the possibilities at $135 and $200, of
course with some appropriate hedging in place
to take care of fluctuations.

No matter which way you look at it revenues
from Scotland's oil are substantial
especially for a nation of only 5 million
and they are going to last for a significant
time going forward. Certainly enough time to
invest some of the money for the future.
The Norwegian's only started investing in
their oil fund in 1995 and already they have
~ £200 billion. Under the custodianship of
the British our current oil fund is
£0 , and I am sure Scotland can improve
substantially on that :)


10

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:30:13
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 2: The SNP Lied, They said "The “Scottish share” of UK North Sea revenues was 83.3% in 2006, not the 95% which the SNP insists on claiming now.

Well 83.3% is fine, much better than we are getting
just now. With either figure the SNP is
putting Scotland first and foremost and
is highlighting a significant gain
for Scotland and I suspect they are
highlighting it deliberately :)

11

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:33:34
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 3: The SNP accuses the UK Government
of wasting oil revenues when they have in
fact invested it wisely for the whole of the UK.

Wrong, "wasted" is an excellent description of
what has happened Scotland's oil revenue :

. At least £8 billion on wars
see - tinyurl.com/5pe3lg
. £36.9 Billion on Defence
see - tinyurl.com/fcqfw
. "New Trident system may cost £76bn"
see - tinyurl.com/3kub7t
. £16 billion on London's Tube
see - tinyurl.com/6j3bpk
. £5.9 billion on one London railway station
see - tinyurl.com/6yheht
. £10 billion on another London rail line
see - tinyurl.com/63mzzh
. £72 billion on the Nuclear industry
see - tinyurl.com/5nk8ws
. London Olympics "at least £14 billion"
see - tinyurl.com/6p43bv
Includes £184 million from the Scottish lottery
which would have gone to needy causes.
see - tinyurl.com/6pyd43
Also the Government hid a report that stated
the Olympics would cause a net loss of
£3 billion to areas outside London including Scotland
see tinyurl.com/69orew & tinyurl.com/6l3jeh
. £789 million on a Dome
see - tinyurl.com/6h6ezn
"squandered the opportunities" of North Sea Oil - £250 billion
see - tinyurl.com/4pywt9

12

Mercian,

UK 21/06/2008 01:42:38
I see the independence debate as reaching a peak into 2010. If things stand as they do currently with Alex Salmond popular, oil revenues high, and an unpopular UK Government (blue or red), I think it will be the greatest opportunity the SNP will ever have to persuade independence is right for Scotland.

If they fail, the SNP may as well give up on the idea...
13

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:50:31
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 4: The McCrone report is dated, irrelevant
and inaccurate.

Wrong again, it is a very relevant document which
shows the level of treachery inflicted on
the Scottish nation and all Scots Unionist
and Nationalist alike should read it in
it from cover to cover - see tinyurl.com/3sdrdg

Why if Scotland is such as trusted and
equal partner in the Union were Scots not
told of material findings of the McCrone report
at the time. Then using all available
information Scots could weigh up the merits
between staying in the Union and withdrawing
from it - we could weigh up the gains against
what we see as the worth of staying in the
Union. But no the Scots were not be trusted
to determine their own future, instead the information
was hidden from us for over 30 years in
large part to deliberately suppress
the Scottish people's drive towards
self-determination. The document is very relevant
today and shows the depth of treachery and
disdain directed at the Scottish people.

Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It,
and we have learned from our history how
our oil was stolen and squandered for 30 years.
We now have upwards of 60 billion barrels and
up to 100 years of Scottish oil left in the
ground and Scotland will not allow a repeat
of history this time. Many of the quotes from
McCrone are as relevant now as then:

. The vast majority of the oil would undeniably
belong to an independent Scotland, and
all Scots should be aware of this FACT.

"There might be some argument about where the
boundary between English and Scottish waters
would lie. At present this is considered to be
along the line of latitude which lies just north
of Berwick on Tweed, and it might perhaps
be held that it should run NE/SW as an extension
of the Border. This could have the effect of transferring the small oilfields in the south,
Auk and Argyll, to the English sector,
but wo
14

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:50:57
cont.

. The vast majority of the oil would undeniably
belong to an independent Scotland, and
all Scots should be aware of this FACT.

"There might be some argument about where the
boundary between English and Scottish waters
would lie. At present this is considered to be
along the line of latitude which lies just north
of Berwick on Tweed, and it might perhaps
be held that it should run NE/SW as an extension
of the Border. This could have the effect of transferring the small oilfields in the south,
Auk and Argyll, to the English sector,
but would not affect the main finds."

. Scotland owning a major and in demand resource
like oil will having a significant standing in
it's position on the world stage.

"As the major producer of oil in Western Europe, however, Scotland would be in a key
position and other countries would be
extremely foolish if they did not seek to
do all they could to accommodate Scottish interests."

3. We had a surplus for the last 30 years which
was stolen from us and used to prevent
Britain falling into bankruptcy. We have
paid with interest for our membership in
this unequal partnership and it is now
time to withdraw from it - there is no
trust and financially it does not make sense.

"An independent Scotland could now expect to
have massive surpluses both on its budget and
on its balance of payments and with the
proper husbanding of resources this situation
could last for a very long time into the future."
for a significant period going forward.

To dismiss the McCrone report as irrelevant
and dated is just pure hypocrisy.
15

,

21/06/2008 01:53:46
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16

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 01:56:11
To preempt a few more Unionista excuses on this
subject.

Excuse 5: One of the favourites of course
is that the Scots are just "selfish".
Well Margaret Thatcher's henchman Bernard
Ingham tried this one and I refer
the Unionistas to the Burns quotation
"the giftie gie us tae see oorsels as
ithers see us.". Check the video clip
here the Unionistas will see exactly how
ithers see them and it ain't pretty.

"they smelt money"
"as greedy as sin as they were"
"the only thing that fueled nationalism was
the smell of oil, money and oil"
"it really is the most monstrous piety"

see - tinyurl.com/6ymamn
17

,

21/06/2008 01:59:36
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18

,

21/06/2008 02:01:11
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19

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 21/06/2008 02:08:18
I have had a look at Table A.1: "Apportionment Methodologies and Sources for Public Sector Revenues in Scotland (excluding North Sea Revenue)" in the new GERS Report. It contains 25 categories, of which one is a new category which did not appear in earlier GERS reports.

Of the remaining 24 categories, the methodology and/or source had been changed for the new GERS. Only six of the categories remained unchanged. This proves that prior GERS reports used flawed methodologies and/or sources and were therefore inaccurate. Whether this was purposeful or just incompetence by the UK government is an open question.

Forensic accountant Niall Aslen uncovered many of the inaccuracies in his paper "The Great Deception" (tinyurl.com/2ga3t5), which the Labour government and the Scottish press attempted to suppress. Luckily, enough people saw it on the internet before the 2007 election to discredit Labour’s claims that Scotland was running an £11.2-billion deficit. Mr Aslen’s analysis showed that Scotland actually had a £9.6-billion surplus. I hope Mr Aslen will also analyse the new GERS.
20

,

21/06/2008 02:09:56
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21

,

21/06/2008 02:12:16
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22

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 21/06/2008 02:28:54
One would think that the Scotsman would be overjoyed to discover officially that its country is not a subsidy junkie, but has been lied to for many years by its colonial masters. But you would never guess any joy from the first two paragraphs of the article.

Pity the Scotsman did not do some real investigative journalism when the McCrone report first came to light. Now it is paying for it through lost circulation.
23

Arnold Codger,

21/06/2008 02:43:18
Traquir will you please write a book or two, i will definitely buy them as will many others.
24

Guga II,

Rockall 21/06/2008 04:24:48
#14 Traquir.

An excellent article. If the Hootsmon had any sense they would employ you as a journalist instead of half of these insipid, New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British branch), card carrying party members they currently employ. I reckon you would help to reverse their decline into their Unionist oblivion.

Keep up the excellent work.

25

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21/06/2008 04:25:55
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26

,

21/06/2008 04:52:50
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27

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 21/06/2008 06:00:03
Oil is a commodity. Money isn't. "The trouble with money is, that money is not really money." - Eddie George.

The price of oil can be fluctuated but it always has a tradeable value as long as we rely on hydrocarbons for motive power. (10 gals of petrol IS putting one hell of amount of energy in your tank though other means are not impossible.) Or is it the value of your money that goes up and down and generally down when it's left to private banks to issue it.

The case for scottish independence would be even more compelling supposing there was no oil in the North Sea!

What is it with academics and think tanks? Are they dipped like sheep and emerge spouting always verbiage before sense.

It's ever possible to cheapen a product and charge more for it. It's the UK way. Like buying a house.
28

Zorbathejock,

Paphos 21/06/2008 06:00:49
Independence aside,what will happen to Britain when the oil runs out ? Or have the unionists some great plan prepared which will keep the economy going? We haven't had much leadership from the unionists since oil was discovered so I cannot see much hope for the future from them.An independent Scotland could make a much better fist of managing itself than the way it is now.
29

Jimmy the Pie,

21/06/2008 06:08:23
Traquir.

Excellent postings yet again.

You should show the Hootsmon 'journalists' how it's done!!
30

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21/06/2008 06:16:02
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31

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 21/06/2008 06:32:09
Unionists intend to slink by subterfuge into the euro-Zone. It's not all bad news for England though high end jobs will tend to move to the Continent and lowerpaid work to England. But Bristol will still be in aerospace and there'll be design-engineering for the automotive trades. The City will be at laundering drugs and arms money like nothing's ever changed.

If any money's spent north of Manchester and Newcastle, it will be done very grudgingly and the tabloids will tell it so. This is the unionist mind-set.
32

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 06:55:27
Oil,Oil,Oil all you can drink Glug Glug Glug barrels full ,bottles full, baths full........

Oil as far as you can see££££££££££ and its all ours ha ha ha ah rich we are rich ha ha ha ha ha

£90 billion £100 billion £200 billion.£ billion billion billion billion ££££££££££££££

all ours ha ha ha vote snp and be rich really really rich............Patriotism well ££££££££££££££££££££ is where it and the snp are at it
33

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 07:29:37
I have made the point before that many unionists and nationalists are obsessed with the narrow oil debate. The decision about independence is not wholly an economic one.

That being said - one cannot ignore the economics entirely. However, I am more interested in the post-oil economic situation. In particular the types of economic policies that should be implemented to allow Scotland to become less reliant on oil.

I know much has been made of the Norwegian situation, where they, sensibly, have built up a petroleum fund (The Government Pension Fund of Norway) of some $400 billion. It is the largest pension fund in Europe and the second largest in the world.

The theory is sound if you have enough of a surplus to build up a substantial fund.

My understanding is, and correct me if I am wrong, is that a surplus of around £4.4 billion per annum (not the £2.7 billion in the article) could exist at current market prices. This sounds great until you compare it to the surplus of around £44 billion that Norway will generate in the current year.

Could an oil fund be built up that is comparable with Norway's?

With a £2.7 billion (or £4.4 billion) surplus that is very unlikely.

The only way I think it could be achieved is by a serious re-appraisal of fiscal policy. By examining taxation and expenditure policies it could be possible to increase the surplus to a much higher level.

That would need a government with balls to tackle Scotland's bloated public sector and grossly inefficient public services.

Whether there is one ready to take such action is another matter.
34

Iain green,

Haddingon 21/06/2008 07:38:31
Can John McLaren (Prof) advise why single source economies such as that of Saudi Arabia seem to get along ok with oil as their main product?
However, the key point in this report is that without oil, the UK would be a bankrupt third world economy.
It is clear that oil is so over-ridingly important, that any tactic is allowable to keep Scotland and its reserves within the union.
35

obeone,

21/06/2008 07:45:12
"Scotland owning a major and in demand resource
like oil will having a significant standing in
it's position on the world stage."

Anyone agreeing with this needs to see a shrink to discuss their inadequacy issues
36

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 21/06/2008 07:56:19
One day the Scots will waken up and realise that they are the last people in the world to have the courage or confidence to vote for themselves. I hope to live to see it however.
37

puskas,

East kilbride 21/06/2008 08:15:10
No44, obeone.

Your inadequacy shows.
38

Gdgy,

dndy 21/06/2008 08:19:24
lets take this dodgy document at face value and treat it as gospel. For Scotland to take adavantage of the oil we would have to be independent. But the SNP govt is in no hurry to start the legislation required to have a referendum on independence! Why this delay if it is sooooo obvious that the oil would give Scotland such a benefit?
COULD it be that the SNP are not acting in the best interests of Scotland but in the best interests of themselves and their feeble grip on power (and reality?)???
39

thinking,

Scotland 21/06/2008 08:22:00
I did a web search on oil and gas and found that there are many fields around the UK, not just Scotland. There are also land based sites too.
Some fields are still producing because of more recent technology but you can also read how costs of extraction are getting much higher so that, eventually, some areas will be too costly to work.
Skills that made Scots famous and brought industry should be encouraged rather than relying on oil and gas.
40

The Answer,

Glasgow 21/06/2008 08:26:35
#38 yukyfingers

Low skill jobs are for scotch like yourself!
read and weep.

51 million population England
5 million population scotsland
3 million population Wales

Undergraduate students qualifying to enter/study at Oxford university! (Oxford and Cambridge ranked 2 and 3 in the world)

9,141 England
362 Wales

239 scotsland

Well done the welsh education system.

tinyurl.com/5ehwfp
41

Peeablo,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 08:26:36
Strange (not really) that The Scotsman focused on the Scottish deficit as though it was a problem. ALL countries run with a deficit barring a few. The UK deficit in in excess of £32 billion with 100% of oil revenues.
This will rise even more as Labour try and borrow their way out of current difficulties with the country having nothing to show for the money.

Scotsman Editor - your paper is the equivalent of Sky/Fox News and articles at The Sun level.
42

MoClana,

Stirling 21/06/2008 08:29:05
Amazing is it not.....when reports of Scotlands oil lasting for at least another 50 years and possibly 100 you dont hear a dicky bird.....and then you see the usual Unionist cabal insisting we are still too inept as a nation to control our own financial affairs!

Dark forces are at work within the media in Scotland, brought on by the increasing realisation that independnece is on the map.

Saor Alba
43

The Answer,

Glasgow 21/06/2008 08:44:15
#52

"Inept as a nation"

The thought never crossed my mind!



Undergraduate students qualifying to enter/study at Oxford university! (Oxford and Cambridge ranked 2 and 3 in the world)

9,141 England
362 Wales

239 scotsland
44

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 21/06/2008 08:47:03
#52 Saor Alba but not just yet Lord not just yet.
45

eric,

21/06/2008 08:56:33
oil or no oil i would like to become a scottish problem ,what a nice burden eh.
46

gus1940,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 09:17:18
Can anybody clarify for me what are the definition of VAT, Income Tax and NI as regards to what is credited as tax paid by individuals/firms in Scotland.

N.B. Tax PAID not accounted as COLLECTED.
47

,

21/06/2008 09:19:40
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48

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 09:22:08
George Soros, the billionaire financier and philanthropist, who made massive profits on the stock exchange at the expense of the incompetent Major and Lamont, claims that the oil bubble will eventually burst?

Soros is a shrewd futures investor but if we take the opposite view, and the bubble keeps ballooning, and the price of a barrel of oil spirals ever upwards, exceeding $200 or even £250, then the UK will be tipped into a severe, long term recession, and the Nationalist case for a sovereign Scottish State will become irresistible!

The Unionist parties might well end up taking desperate measures to balance the books, and could even unilaterally withdraw from the European Union and seek an economic 'Atlantic Union' with the United States of America?

The future of this unitary state would then become very precarious!



49

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 09:30:49
#58

There the reason the Calman commission are unable to hold public meetings to Debate the need for devolution. And they are unable to have a web site as they will be under endless cybernat attack.

Brownshirts anyone?


"Such meetings would be difficult to manage and open to hijack',"

http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.2353737.0.warning_over_hijacking_of_constitution_meetings.php
50

lulach mac gille coemgain,

21/06/2008 09:38:12
SCOTLAND'S economy would have had a budget deficit of £2.7 billion last year – even with its "geographical share" of North Sea oil revenues, official figures have found.

So there ARE geographical shares not being shared correctly then ?
51

Calum10,

21/06/2008 09:42:01
What Scots have always suspected has now been exposed. Unionists have been lying to the Scottish people about the economic viability of Scotland.

A more rigerous assessment under GERS has now shown that Unionist politicians have delibrately over-estimated Scotland's public expenditure and under-estimated Scotland's overall tax-take. Scotland's economy has always been in a better shape that the UK's, and that is excluding North Sea Oil.

Also we now know the value of North Sea oil to the UK economy. It has underpinned the financial stability of the UK for the past 30 years.

GERS has come back and bitten those Unionists in the @rse who preached to Scots that we were too stupid, too poor and Scotland too small to be an economically viable country.

No wonder Sir Kenneth Calman no longer wants to engage with the Scottish people on constitutional reform. He knows that he would told to his face it is England that needs Scotland and not the other way round.
52

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 21/06/2008 09:48:52
#58 "All I hear is stories about this f@cking oil..How about thanking the union for our army, navy and air force."

What, for sending our sons and daughters off to be killed in foreign lands meddling in affairs that are none of our business, breaking international law and wasting billions of pounds in the process that could be better spent improving our lives now and preparing for the difficult years ahead?

Wow - thanks, Union!
53

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 21/06/2008 09:55:46
Chicken manure is the fuel of the future. The exhaust gases are fowl.
54

David MacVicar,

web 21/06/2008 09:56:37
The Unionist 'message' is a predictable cliché:
Its selfish for Scots to want to control our own Energy resources, its all going to run out soon anyway, Scotland is going to go bankrupt without oil.

The UK facts:
Selfish: Almost 4 decades of consuming one countries energy revenues and spending the proceeds elsewhere - primarily SE England. That is not just selfish its tantamount to theft and deception.

Mismanagement: UK oil Fund = 0 pounds and 0 pence. Investment in diverse Scottish Economy and infrastructure: What investment? Where is it? No motorways, poor road and rail infrastructure etc. Compare to SE Englands expenditure and renewal projects.

The UK debt has grown substantially due to UK policies that Scots voted against - Nuclear power, Nuclear bombs, Illegal wars, Questionable foreign policy, Centralisation policies etc etc. UK is heading downhill fast and is with Scottish revenues AND Scottish Surplus. UK state is an albatross round our necks.

Lifetime: Oil revenues will be with us for several decades. This is a huge benefit, much more than the direct 'upstream value'. Corporation tax, Licencing rounds, Refining, huge petrochemical industry etc etc.

Oil headquarters and related companies would move to Scotland, with a better tax regime and lower asset costs.

HQs are only in London for proximity to UK Government.

The Unionists are terrified of the consequnces for the South. Eg. The only net migration of people will be from South to North. Wealth will move from centred in SE to NE.

The writing is on the wall.
55

Media 1,

cape town 21/06/2008 09:56:53
Rev S Campbell

Mr Reverend, you more than anyone should understand that human turmoil is part and parcel of who we are. Our sons and daughters have always gone off to war, Iraq is nothing new its been happening for millenia. And since you are a reverend you will note that even the god entity in the bible murdered 2.6 million people in cold blood.

What I am saying is that there is more to Scotland than just oil and without the union you would not have all those wonderful support structures and quality of life.

So be proud of Scotland and recognise that she is an IMPORTANT part of a very strong union, she is not the little English lap dog you make her out to be.
56

bill-alba,

fife 21/06/2008 10:14:02
#66 why wouldnt we have all these wonderful support structers and quality of life without the union.
We are not a proud part of a strong union we are counted as a nonentity in this union.
Iraq is nothing new but as an independent Scotland we would have our own choice to make to go or not to go to war.
I agree with your statement there is more to Scotland than oil but surely you agree that the oil is there and likely to be there for years and it is foolish for Scotland not to benefit at all from its own resources.
57

Media 1,

cap town 21/06/2008 10:19:01
bill alba

Scotland does benefit though Bill. It is all about give and take. Scotland receives as much as she gives within the union, which is why she not the nonentity that the SNP would have you believe she is.

This small English lapdog mentality is SNP propaganda, it always has been. Scotland is no lap dog, never has been.
58

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/06/2008 10:20:29
Oil issuch an insignificant commodity that the UK has fought 3 WARS in the past 25yrs. (Falklands - Antarctica Mineral Rights, GW1 & GW2).

OIL, yes OIL: NOT Democracy!!!

The Falkland Islanders, to all intents and purposes, had their British Citizenship withdrawn by the Thatcher Govt.
Does anyone believe that Democracy has been IMPOSED on Iraq?

As for the Eco-warriors, hydrocarbon fuels are the least profitable by-products of oil.

Finally, if oil is running out, it can only rise in price due to the multitude of derivatives used in many diverse industries.
The revenue accrued, over the next 50-100yrs.(known reserves), invested wisely will leave a suitable legacy for our descendants.

Our only hope of achieving this legacy is an Independent Scotland, as Westminster has proved that it has neither the vision nor the political will.
59

PaulW,

Borders 21/06/2008 10:24:11
Tory Brownlee suggests the SNP are building their case for independence on volatile oil prices. Yet these figures relate to a period when oil was around $65 per barrell. Hence they are built upon more modest rteurns from oil than are being exeprienced at the moment. He and his fellow apologists for the exploitation of Scotland's natural resources shouls reflect on just how good the figures will be when this year's data are available. Accountants Grant Thornton (not part of the SNP, last time I looked) have suggested Scotland would be £4.4 billion in surplus based on current prices. The UK would be up a creek without a paddle.
60

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 21/06/2008 10:32:31
On route #66 people walk down the streets of Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy and think something is wrong here. (in the Kingdom within the Realm). If the scottish financial aristocracy is the marvel of the Union as promoted in this paper, these burgh towns within easy commuting distance should be THRIVING.

Instead it all seems very dismal and down-market. Where has the vigour and vim once evident dissipated to?
61

,

21/06/2008 10:36:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Calvinist,

21/06/2008 10:43:48
The oil argument has always been a red herring. It does not matter whether North Sea oil lasts for 10 or 100 years the days of the petrochemical industry are numbered. And a good thing too. Within the next 20 years new types of biofuels will come on line. Craig Venter (the man who cracked the human genome) is developing organisms that extract carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and can produce hydrogen or alcohol. The ultimate aim is to make bioreactors that will produce cheap electricity and the beauty of it is that not only will they not pollute the atmosphere but they will be self replicating. There are numerous other examples of this type of work- some that use artificial photosynthesis to extract energy directly from the sun and convert it into biofuels. These new technologies provided to you by the ingenuity of scientists are possibly our only hope if we wish to maintain our present lifestyle and save the planet. Any economy that is principally dependent on oil revenues is very likely to go into serious decline over the next 20 years economies that have had the vision to invest in some of these new exciting technologies will prosper. Are we investing- NO!
63

Kirk View,

Angus 21/06/2008 10:43:48
All very well ... let's go independent tomorrow ... or is there something morally reprehensible about predicating independence on the income from oil when it is oil that is killing the planet.

What use an independent Scotland if nobody can live in it in 100 years ... or will todays "independence based on oil" egos not bother about that. Where is the morality of claiming to radically reduce CO2 emissions on the one hand and look to thrive on the income from CO2 on the other.

Would it not be more honourable to sell land mines to every tin pot dictator???
64

Mcsnagpile,

21/06/2008 10:46:14
Resources have nothing to do with Nationalism or independence. If you think that independence means you can have cheaper pizzas, paid by oil revenue, then forget it.

If nationalism is not important then get rid of the Union Jack the National anthem, the old fogy’s that go with it and join a united federation of Brussels without conditions.

In fact perhaps we should abolish all sense of nationalism and become European people from landmass Europe. Most European National States as countries are relatively new---Italy, Germany, Austria- (eastern empire? - not 100 years old yet), and UK to name some biggys. Alsace Lorain and many, many, European states not to mention Basques, I am sure would rather revert back to the original patchwork that made up Europe. Why should a Rheinland state have a capital in Prussia—Berlin?? Go home King of Prussia and Kaiser Bill (Emperor) of Central Europe. Why should Brittany have a capital in Central France??

Whatever the reason for nation states a lot of boys lost a chance at life because of it.
Hear ye, hear ye, a former colony finances the self-destruction of Europe. Boundary lines drawn up based on newly invented nation states. Yee wot??

Hey! We are not having that old woman with a hooknose and knitting telling us where to put our head.

Now yer jist confusing this wee man wae a flute tae blow.
65

Edward,

21/06/2008 10:47:32
Just an observation, but why is it quoting 83% of the Oil is Scotlands, when 97% of the Oil fields are Scottish?
Upto now we have had figures of 95% of the Oil is Scottish,now this story proports that its now just 83%?
66

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 21/06/2008 10:55:12
So MANY postings and most of them informed and not just incoherent ramblings by those who think they have to comment on every thread.

The issue is too complex for me to understand - even though I read the newsitem - and I will leave it up to INFORMED and INTELLIGENT posters to voice their opinions and maybe then I can make some sense of this finnagling of the funds.
67

Il Penseroso,

Inverurie 21/06/2008 10:59:57
Does anyone in their right mind believe a word that emanates from the Treasury, Westminster or the Unionist press that would give the slightest hint that Scotland can stand on its own feet and be successful. Of course they wouldn't. It is in their own selfish agenda to lie to us. They have done it before and they will do it day and daily. "The oil will run out shortly and we cannot rely on it being above $20 a barrel...." That was in the seventies. "Now it is a diminishing resource and finite....". Tell that to the billions of investments being put into the North Sea by the people who work in the oil business! Come up to Aberdeen and Shire and see for yourselves. All we need is the imagination, confidence and drive to enhance our other bountiful resources. Our workforce our farmers our fisheries our entrepreneurs and researchers.We have the space we have the ability we have the know-how so don't let those Unionist Jonahs brain wash us into apathy and a Domes-day scenario.For once I agree with Oor Wendy (warts and all). Bring on the Referendum now!
68

Edward,

21/06/2008 11:03:00
Not reported here (well I cant find any article on it) but Wendy Alexander has been at it again with calls for a referendum on Scotland to be brought forward
Sounds like she is under presure from Brown to have the referndum before the next General Election, which is due on or before May 2010. She wants the Scottish Government to break there timetable for the planned referendum in the Autumn of 2010, which would be after any possible date for a UK general election
She was mouthing of on Radio 4's Any Questions, yesterday which is repeated again Today at 1.10 pm on Radio 4 for those interesting in listening to the rants of an idiot
69

Edward,

21/06/2008 11:04:42
Back to this story, what I find intersting is that for Scotland, which produces more oil than Kuwait, does not enjoy the same standards as Kuwait
70

subrosa,

21/06/2008 11:07:25
#63

Many of the Scots in the British Forces would support a Scottish military. The amalgamation of the regiments was the final straw for many.
71

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:13:17
£3 Billion in the red ? just cut the number of civil servants and red tape monkeys by 70%, don't hand out money to layabouts, dont give anybody incapacity benefit who clearly doesn't need it, cut back the NHS to what it used to be (performing core medical care), don't let immigrants in until our infrastructure has caught up with our own peoples needs.

There's £10 billion for starters and there is plenty more savings to be found if the government want's to ... trouble is they are addicted to wasting our money.
72

Ugly George,

Edinnburgh 21/06/2008 11:13:28
69 Frank
There may well be oil produced from the North Sea in 50/100 years time but this is not the issue. The issue is what the rate of production will be. The latest Royal Bank of Scotland monthly oil index (April 2008) showed production falling at a rate of 14% per annum. It also said that the value of investment was being "eroded" by increased costs. This means that there is little prospect of the decline being reversed. If this decline continues then production will fall to less than half of its current level in 5 years and to 22% of its current level in 10 years.

The price of oil may or may not rise during this time but there is also rise in costs in exploiting the smaller fields which affects the companies' profitability and hence revenues. It is therefore, to say the least, doubtful how much revenue would accrue in future years. Romania has been producing oil for over 70 years but is hardly awash with oil revenues even though there oil is land based and hence cheaper to extract.
73

subrosa,

21/06/2008 11:13:32
# 80

It's incredible isn't it Edward? We used to have the best education system in the world, have always been entrepeneurs and have travelled the world improving it for others. But we Scots, for some reason, are quite happy to allow someone else to run and rob our country.

Even with all the evidence floating around nowadays about the union, most of my friends still have the brainwashed mental attitude of 'we're better staying as we are'. It's a hard fight for the SNP to get through that mentality but if they continue to govern professionally and openly, then the Scots may begin to feel more confident.

Of course there is the ministry of dirty tricks (Westminster) to handle and they 'will stop at nothing to ensure Scotland stays within the union'. I believe them. We haven't seen anything yet. Without Scottish oil the UK would become a third world country.
74

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:14:44
Excuse us for asking but how much is the UK in deficit ?
75

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:24:32
85 Subrosa
The UK pays more to other countries in overseas aid and EU contributions than it receives in oil revenues. Check the figures for yourself if you don't believe me.
Your assertion that it would be a third world country without oil revenues is therefore completely innaccurate. Also did you not read the article and analysis. It shows clearly that 83% of oil revenues plus funds received from Westminster are not enough to fund the spending which takes place in Scotland. One can see clearly, once more, that your assertion is well wide of the mark.
76

The Strategist,

21/06/2008 11:25:30
I was reading yesterday that the Norwegian company REC had announced plans to invest $2.5 billion in the first phase of an integrated manufacturing complex for the production of solar wafers, cells and modules in Singapore. REC also announced that it would invest $77.1 million to upgrade and extend its existing production capacity in Heroya, Norway.

The more news of this nature that I read about Norway the more I am utterly convinced that Scotland needs to get the heck out from under the suffocating influence of the Treasury and the City.




77

John S,

21/06/2008 11:31:20
#79:Edward, Wendy Alexander could have read this:
Nationalists can be confident the next two sets of figures (GERS), due in June each year, will put Scotland comfortably into the Brent crude black.
Takings from this year's oil bonanza will be perfectly timed to fuel their case, with publication only four months before the target date for an independence referendum.Herald - June 21 2008
http://tinyurl.com/5scjcx
Apart from to the next UK general election which much be held on or before the 3rd June 2010, a bonus for the SNP will be if the oil price stays high during 2010.
Hamish McRae, one of the world’s best economic journalists predicts in 2009-2010 oil probably be in the $130-$150 range. May 09, 2008
Crude oil may rise to between $150 and $200 a barrel within two years as growth in supply fails to keep pace with increased demand from developing nations, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. analysts led by Arjun N. Murti said in a report.May 6 2008
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/06/2008 11:33:42
The desperation of the Unionist parties is there for all to see. They are running scared!
79

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:39:46
88 The Strategist
This was an investment by a private company based in Norway. There are many large companies (RBS, HBOS etc.) with HQ in Scotland which could make investments of this size and much larger. The rate of corporation tax in both is 28% but personal tax in Norway is much higher. What is the point you are trying to make?
80

Edward,

21/06/2008 11:40:52
#85 Subrosa
'Without Scottish oil the UK would become a third world country' True , but slight correction, without Scotland there is no UK, without Scottish oil England, the other partner state in the defunct United Kingdom will have to 'cut its cloth' in accordance with its reduced income stream or face becoming a third world country
81

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/06/2008 11:41:16
The article is being deliberately misleading. There is no deficit. That £2.7 billion is borrowing for capital projects, which is something all countries do. There would in fact be a surplus of nearly £1bn. I would like to know what the surplus would be at oil prices of $130 per barrel.
82

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 11:44:06
92 Edward
See post 87
83

Edward,

21/06/2008 11:47:59
#87 Ugly George
The article is inaccurate, its is attempteing to perfade an assumption that 83% of the Oil is Scottish, when in fact its closer to 97%
You obvioulsy jump on this straw of comfort to assume that even with 83% oil Scotland could not survive without England. The fact of the matter remains that with a population of 5 million the revenue from ALL of Scotlands oil would go further than being spread accross the population of the UK as a whole (simple mathematics). The reality is of course that oil revenues are not spent on the whole of the UK, but is mainly spend in the South east of England as well as on a tenious defence budget (why do we need Trident?, Why do we need 2 Aircraft Carriers?)
Scotland produces more oil than Kuwait, it does have a bigger population than Kuwait, but it has more diverse industry than Kuwait, yet Kuwait has a higher living standard and lifestyle than Scotland
84

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 11:52:09
Scotland should vote for independence now, spend the oil revenue on the usual stuff, until it runs out, then we can re-join the UK.
85

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 11:56:09
...Maybe that's why the SNP want to keep the royal family on a retainer....
86

danbob,

21/06/2008 12:00:30
The Tin Man 96# You may have posted that comment as a bit tongue in cheek. However I will bet there are a lot of Scots who think along them lines.
87

Calvinist,

21/06/2008 12:02:23
# 82

Interesting comment- now where have I heard this type of argument before? - oh yes - Margaret Thatcher. Or as Dr. Johnston put it; '...... last refuge of a scoundrel'

#72 Yes isn't it interesting, when oil money is at stake our moral obligations are conveniently forgotten. With the combination of oil and whisky we can poison the world and when we get the blame we can indulge in our usual pastime of what Andrew O'Hagan recently described as 'victimology'.
88

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/06/2008 12:03:06
#84, Ugly George.

Your comments are almost a verbatim rerun of the Unionist anti-SNP campaign of the '70s.

We all remember - THE OIL WILL ONLY LAST FOR 20/25yrs!!! Well, the 25yrs have come and gone AND the oil is still flowing, with more fields coming on stream.

Who are we to believe? The OIL Companies, or Unionist politicians and their apologists?

As I said, in my earlier post, the price of oil is likely to rise as it is a diminishing resource, essential to a wide spectrum of industry.
89

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:03:36
#99 danbob

Not tongue-in-cheek entirely. There is a strong connection between tthe idea of swimming in black-gold, and the independence movement, along the lines of patriotism + short-term greed.
90

Edward,

21/06/2008 12:04:10
Thirty plus years of Oil income, none spent on Scotland
None invested for Scotland
For Scotland which produces as much oil as it does, why do we still have poverty and under achieving and a society that lives for the hand outs.
The reality is that subsequent UK governments have maintained and ensured that Scotland remains subservient to England. To instil a belief that Scotland is incapable of looking after itself. The manipulation of media by the Westminster governments have ensured this continuation. To make use of Scotland and Scots during times of war and to make full use of its natural resources, is a complete disgrace. We end up with pro union sycophants that really do believe that England and the perpetuation of the union with England will keep Scotland in the lifestyle that its accustomed to, that of the under dog, happy to feed of the scraps thrown to it
I know many of the pro unionists n here will deny this and dismiss out of hand as some kind of nationalist outburst, but Im no nationalist. Im a socialist of the old school that believes in Scotland and belives in self determination. If its good enough for lessr nations, ythen its sure as hell good enough for Scotland
91

Calvinist,

21/06/2008 12:04:17
Sorry that should read #74

# 72 is the usual myopic cliche.
92

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/06/2008 12:04:51
#27 Proud Doonhamer

Funnily enough, I was also thinking of wee AM2 and all of his slavishly obedient postings. Flawed, every one of them!
93

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:08:45
#103 Edward

To say that no oil revenue has been invested in Scotland is a bit silly. Does Gordon keep it under his bed in a tin?
94

Edward,

21/06/2008 12:11:40
#99 danbob & #102 The tin man
The reality is with an idependent Scotland, we would have an oil fund set up to put by and invest in Scotlands future, just as Norway is doing
As Scots we should be good at that as we believe in putting something by for leaner times
If and when the Oil does run out, it will be countries that have put money by and invested in new technolgies that will survive. Its not just about the oil running out in the North Sea or Atlantic fields, for when that runs out ALL the oil accross the world will have run out!
This is a senario that unionists just dont want to address. If Scotland remains in the Union with England, Scotland will not have any money invested or placed in fund. England is making sure of that. But if Scotland were to become independent, then Scotland would definately be in a stronegr position for when the oil runs out and there will be no running to join up with England
95

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:11:58
#103 Edward

...Perhaps your little 'member of an oppressed minority' construct is clouding your mind...

96

Edward,

21/06/2008 12:12:45
#107 Tin Man
PROOVE IT!
Proove that the OIl money has been invested in Scotland
Proove that oil money has been placed in a oil fund for Scotland
97

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 21/06/2008 12:14:01
#39 Niko

Nut-case!!
98

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 12:15:08
95 Edward
First of all a correction - Scotland does not produce more oil than Kuwait. This was a false statement in the recent BBC documentary. The latest RBS statement(April 2008) detailed total UK continental shelf production of oil at 1.26 million barrels per day - this is a fairly typical figure. Kuwait's oil production is 2.4 - 2.5 million barrels per day. The BBC correspondent should have done better research.

Also I did not state or even imply that with oil revenues Scotland could not survive. What I am saying is that, as the article and analysis make clear, it would be relying on a source of production which is declining at quite a rapid rate (14% per annum according to RBS statement). The analysis shows that virtually all the current oil revenue would be required for current expenditure leaving very little, if any, for a supposed "oil fund" to take into account the depletion of a finite resource. One has to ask, therefore what the situation would be in 5, 10, 20 years time if the rate of production of oil continues to fall.
As far as the 83% or 97% is concerned, it should be remembered that the revenues include oil and gas. It is true that most of the oil fields are closer to Scotland than to England but there are a large amount of gas fields off the coast of England and more in the Irish sea near Liverpool. Whether the allocation would be 83% or 97% or somewhere in between I don't know but in the long term I don't think that that is the crucial factor.
99

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:15:44
#108 Edward

Why on Earth do you think that oil is important with regard to independence? Are you saying that you would not support independence if there was no oil? Presumably not, as you imagine that you are being oppressed.
100

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 12:16:05
#68 Media 1

I note that you are so enamoured by the quality of life in Scotland that you choose to live in somewhere called “cap town”.

Perhaps this location of this place is known only to media types such as yourself, and is an idyllic haven, free from any of the scourges of the post-Thatcherite society, afflicting most of the rest of the country.

I imagine that in the sun-soaked, pristine, unemployment free, quaintly named village of your residence, happy little schoolchildren skip all the way to their local primary school, passing on their way the local post office adjacent to the cottage hospital, (fully equipped to deal with maternity and accident and emergency cases), and perhaps pausing for a second or two outside the gleaming new office block, where mummy and daddy go every day to earn barrow loads of money which goes to pay for nanny, the horses and the summer villa in St Moritz.

Every year, on midsummer’s day, the whole village population no doubt gather on the village green, (suitably bedecked with hundreds of little union flags), to proclaim their undying allegiance to the Union, and to express their grateful thanks for all the benefits thereby bestowed upon them.

On the other hand, those of us who choose to live here in the real world, see a nation scarred from three centuries of subservience, cringing forelock touching and meek acceptance of third rate aspiration.

However, the worm is turning, and all the evidence suggests that at long last, the nation is re-awakening.

We are in the process of casting aside the “We are too wee, too poor, too stupid” attitude which has held sway for generations.

The most recent GERS report, merely confirms what some of us have been saying for decades.
There is no economic impediment to Scottish independence; it all boils down to our desire to see improvements in our society, and the self-confidence to have our voice heard in the world.

Now who would disagree with that?

101

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:16:54
#111 Edward

Oh dear......

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!
102

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:18:35
#68 media 1

I hope you have your gate locked, your electric fence switched-on, and your car-tracker installed.
103

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 12:20:11
No-one has yet answered the points I made earlier (#42).

A surplus of £4.3 billion sounds great but it is dwarfed in comparision to the £44 billion surplus that Norway makes. Those who aspire to build a petroleum fund on par with theirs might have a very long wait.

The only way such a fund could be built would be if politicians tackled the issue our bloated public sector finances.
104

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:22:15
#116 bullly

'On the other hand, those of us who choose to live here in the real world, see a nation scarred from three centuries of subservience, cringing forelock touching and meek acceptance of third rate aspiration'

I am sorry for you, if that really is your opinion. I choose to differ.
105

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 12:24:06
"#98 Bob Christie,21/06/2008 11:59:36
Preserve us from the non-domiciled overseas posters who keep telling us how good the union is for us!"

Scots abroad of whatever political persuasion are entitled to contibute to this debate. Or are you only advocating that nationalist ex-pats can comment?
106

Edward,

21/06/2008 12:27:44
Ugly George and Tin Man - a case in point as regards sycophantic unionists suporters

Just for the record I personally dont think having oil is a case for Independence. If countries with same size population and less or equal industries and no oil can make a go of it, then there is no reason why Scotland cant. Its more about being responsible for Scotland. Scotland does not have to rely on England this is just a misconception that it does. It can and should become indpendent. If you dont like that, then suggest you get out of the country, would not want you to suffer the embaressment of being proven wrong
107

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 12:28:25
108 Edward
Did you not read the article and analysis. It makes it clear that the amount availabefor an oil fund is extremely limited. Also Norway hs a oil fund but it also has a basic rate of tax of 28% (UK 20%), VAT at 25 % (UK 17.5%) with rate of 12% food (UK 0%). It has been abe to set up the oil fund by using high rates of taxtion to fund expenditure.
108

Jimmy the Pie,

21/06/2008 12:28:57
With all this bickering about Scottish oil, we should remeber all the people who have died or been hurt getting this oil ashore.

We owe them a debt of gratitude.
109

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 12:32:21
The Federalist (121): "The only way such a fund could be built would be if politicians tackled the issue our bloated public sector finances."

I agree. The key conclusion from the relatively low surplus indicated by GERS is that Scotland already obtains much of the benefit from oil money. However, if current high oil prices continue for several years and independence occurs, there would be the possibility of establishing a solid surplus.
110

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 21/06/2008 12:33:02
The economic arguments put forward against independence were Labour's ace in the sleeve, in my opinion. It saved them from having to engage fully in a discussion about the merits, or otherwise, of an independent Scotland because Scotland is poor. It saved them from having to question the ideas that underpinned their belief in the union because Scotland is wee and sma'. It saved them from having to justify their position because poor, wee, sma' places shouldn't want to be independent because they're poor, wee, and sma'. Then, they just tucked that ace back up their sleeve and everyone will carry on in their merry way.

Yet, Scotland isn't even remotely poor and Scotland is actually about average-sized for a European country and, now, all of a sudden, people in Scotland realise that, or, at least, are slowly beginning to realise it. I have to say that the belief that Scotland could not finance itself as sovereign seemed both strange and generally quite insulting. It seemed self-evidently false that Scotland, post-independence, would collapse into a flopping and gulping financial basket-case. The argument that Scotland would be economically unfeasible served one side of the debate quite well in managing to twist the debate from one of proper aspirations to one of prudent fears.

I would suggest Scotland, like all other Western European countries, would find a comfortable balance, managing to tend to the people in Scotland's needs while engaging with our neighbours and the wider world. I think this belief is slowly beginning to materialise and become accepted on both sides, thankfully, the debate can move on to the best way to orgnaise politics for the British Isles and the interaction with Europe and the wider world. Scotland has great potential to become a great friend to all of our neighbours, in the British Isles and our neighbours beyond the British Isles and engage fully with the rest of the world. Scotland could be more than a place where someone like Dav
111

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 12:33:17
#119 - The latests GERS figures basically show Scotland breaking even with oil at $65 a barrel. So, you are right - there would be very little if any money to put into any sovereign fund. What's more, three years ago, oil was not close to being $65 a barrel and for much of the last 30 years it has been incredibly cheap. How would we have built a sovereign fund in those years? Indeed, how would we have paid for our NHS, our education system, our pensions etc etc.
112

Geoff,

sa 21/06/2008 12:33:21
Great programme about William Wallace on History Channel including blind harrys epic poem! Talk to yous later.
113

Carmichael, A.,

21/06/2008 12:35:54
cont. from 129
Scotland could be more than a place where someone like David Cairns can continually attack Scotland for being a parochial backwater. So, the challenge is to rise above the narrow meanderings of Labour and aim for a politics in Scotland that creates a better politics in the British Isles, engages fully with Europe and the wider world.
114

danbob,

21/06/2008 12:35:55
Edward 108# The fact is that the worlds oil production has peaked. The worlds geological oil reserves are just a few years from peaking. This has all come at a time when demand has never been higher. The remarkable price of a barrel of oil is reflected in this. However it is very much a double edged sword. As the product gets more expensive the world will look for alternatives at an increased rate. The world will never use up all the geological oil because the demand will drop off making it uneconomical to drill for. To base a case for independence on the price of a product that is nearing it's peak is just plain silly.
115

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 12:37:06
130. Typically pathetic and pointless post. The latest GER figures, taking only 82% of oil revenues show a surplus of over £5 billion at current pricing. A more realstic 90% figure would show an even greater surplus.

Given the UK is running a c£80 billion deficit in comparison, how on earth does the UK pay for NHS, pensions, education?
116

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 12:39:22
Carmichael, A (129): "I have to say that the belief that Scotland could not finance itself as sovereign seemed both strange and generally quite insulting."

Scotland can certainly finance itself, but that finance will be critically dependent on oil income. Further, as we see from this GERS report, the cost of the Scottish public sector and welfare state roughly balance the oil income. Such dependence on a volatile commodity is worrying for any state with such a bloated public sector, so an independent Scotland must address this as soon as possible.
117

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 12:43:13
Ayrshire Scot (135): "Given the UK is running a c£80 billion deficit in comparison, how on earth does the UK pay for NHS, pensions, education?"

By debt, unfortunately, and an ever-increasing tax burden. Gordon Brown's profligacy will be an expensive drain in the future. Perhaps England should demand reparations from an independent Scotland for having inflicted Gordon Brown on us. . .
118

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 12:44:52
Interesting bit of agitprop, the GERS publication, Scotland is charged with 5% of its revenue to pay for 'defence' (£2.7Bn), I would think that in an Independent Scotland our 'defence bill' would be no where near that figure, as we would not have Trident or 'Son of' to pay for, nor two hugely expensive Aircraft Carriers.
Then there is the wee bit about how we benefit from the Landan Olympics (our share of cost £27m in 06-07) rising to about £1bn in the years nearer it.

Another strange thing when you take out UK Accountancy adjustments, Scotland shows a £3bn plus surplus on the current account, not a 2.7bn deficit, so £5 or £6bn there not getting properly accounted for.
Then £500m for 'embassies', would we actually spend that amount if we were Independent.

So when you 'knock off' the extra expenditure incurred because of the union, even based on the suspect 83% geographic allocation, a massive 7 or 8bn in surplus, and that is at 2006 oil price rates.

Grant Thornton has suggested that the surplus based on these figures in GERS if updated to current oil prices would be in excess of £4bn, but that also includes us paying for Trident, The Landan Olympics, and this strange UK accountancy adjustment, etc.

These figure in no way represent a 'detailed analysis', but only a cursory look, and they still don't convince me of any great 'Union Dividend' but certainly suggest a 'Union Penalty'.

As usual, the Westminster Gov, tends to blur and fog, by putting out 3 sets of figures, when the only sets that count are the set including a geographical share of North Sea oil, and with there sleight of hand manage to turn a profit into a loss, very strange indeed.
119

qohldr,

21/06/2008 12:45:33
It is quite a few months since I read the Scotsman, online anyway.
Today I did not get the printed edition so I came online to read it and I see nothing has changed.
The normal claptrap from the normal people.
120

Media 1,

cape town 21/06/2008 12:47:26
bully wee alba

Your take on Cape Town is nowhere close to reality, neither is your take on Scotland. Cape Town may be one of the most gloriously beautiful places on Earth, it may well be the city that boasts more celebrity homes than any other city outwith Holywood, but beneath the surface it is no paradise. South Africa is in Africa san, and she is governed by Africans, so the wheels are coming off and it wont be long until she is a complete basket case. You have no idea what real life is like, because you reside in Bonnie Scotland where it is safe, where kids can walk to the bus stop, where people can walk in the city centre at night, where taxi's drive on the roads as opposed to the pavements, where only 120 people per annum are murdered as opposed to 52 000. You see, Scotland is a wonderful nations, a first world paradise where people have two cars in the drive way and society is orderly and the economy strong. You live in glorious Scotland where life is easy, where if you fall on hard times you can still ask the government for a hand out, where you dont need to seek expensive private health care and where you can travel anywhere without fear for your life. You see pal, you live in a nation free from scars and pain, you live in a nation of order and extreme wealth, you live in a Scotland who is powerful and happily placed as an importan member of the union. Anyone can see how lucky you are to live in that idyllic and safe society. Only those of us crazy enough to leave would leave such a tremendously amazing life, but sometimes we have to.
121

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 12:48:20
138. Fairfax

I think England voted for New Labour, so self-infliction?
122

danbob,

21/06/2008 12:48:38
Richard1 134# Quite right what you say. I work with five fellow scots down here in the North of England and they all say the same. The SNP was as popular as the Monster raving looney party until Mel came along with his naff Braveheart film. Suddenly they are all oppressed. The funny thing is they will talk about oil till the cows come home but mention Scotlands share of the UK national debt and King Alex does a runner, Pathetic.
123

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 12:51:11
Oh dear. Even with the SNOP let loose on the books with their year-long 'recalculation', they STILL can't fiddle the books to prove the nationalist claims that Scotland doesn't do well out of the UK.

£10 billion was needed to top up our taxes last year. Jurt as much the year before. And again the year before that.

Even with oil (I assume the SNP has abandoned their figures that Scotland produces "95% of UK oil", just shows how unreliable their figures are!), Scotland still requires billions to top up its spending.
124

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 12:51:12
#135 - The Grant Thornton study shows a surplus of £4.4 million for this current year with an oil price at an average $120 a barrel. Scotland is, therefore, now in surplus. Three years ago and for many of the years preceding that, we would not have been in surplus, but in deficit because the oil price was significantly lower. Clearly, your answer would have been to borrow significant amounts of money to pay for services. On top of which, of course, we would also have had to service our share of the historic UK national debt.

The UK currently manages its deficit by making its citizens pay a growing number of taxes. An independent Scotland would have to do exactly the same thing or it would have to institute major cuts in public spending. Why does the SNP never tell us this?

And, as usual, I find your assumption that the other members of the former UK would just roll over and accept that Scotland should get to keep 90% of all North Sea oil taxation revenues extraordinarily naive.
125

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 12:52:25
143. Labour are the largest Scottish party in Westminster.

Still struggling with this concept of 'democracy'?
126

John S,

21/06/2008 12:52:49
Why is the UK (English dominated)Parliament desperate to keep Scotland within the UK ?
127

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 12:54:40
#136 Fairfax

An eminently sensible post. Unfortunately, it does not appear to be the wish of the Scottish people to reign-in the State in any way. See the mind-set in post #116 for an example of in-grained Scottish state-reliance.

Furthermore, a move to the Euro would dent oil-revenue, due to the dollar / euro exchange rate, not that it matters - as you stated, oil is a volatile commodity, and the N. Sea is a mature province with declining reserves.

Personally, I am neither for or against independent, as i don't think that anything much would change. However, the uncertainty over independence / in-the-UK is not a good thing, and is potentially economically damaging.
128

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 12:55:33
148. It's astonishing how often nats need to be reminded of this....

The majority want to stay in the UK.

Once more, THE MAJORITY want to stay in the UK.

The support for independence was about 25% when the SNP came to power.

A year later, following countless anti-UK propaganda...still monly 25% want independence.

The MAJORITY want to stay in the UK.

No-one is 'keeping us here'.

Can't you grasp this?
129

danbob,

21/06/2008 12:56:06
148# Cannot comment on the UK parliament, but I will tell you this. The majority of english people wish Scotland would go.
130

John S,

21/06/2008 12:59:49
The question asked was:- Why is the UK (English dominated)Parliament desperate to keep Scotland within the UK ?
131

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:01:02
137. No, the £8 billion was the UK deficit for 2006, £42 billion for 2007 and forecast for 2008 os 3.3% of GDP - so your £8 billion figure is correct, if the UK GDP were 7 times smaller than it is....

Try reading up before spouting totally inaccurrate figures?

-------------------------

The government yesterday suffered the ignominy of being lumped with Hungary as the sole members of the EU-27 to be rapped over the knuckles by the European commission for running an excessive budget deficit.

The commission severely criticised Britain for a "significant deterioration" in its budgetary situation and the government for conducting an expansionary fiscal policy despite economic good times.

And it warned that the chancellor had exacerbated the deficit with last month's tax cuts to offset the abolition of the 10p starting rate, ensuring that it would be well above the 3% Maastricht treaty limit this year and next.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/12/economy.eu?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

The European Commission is to start disciplinary proceedings against the UK for breaching its economic rules.

It says Britain's budget deficit, the gap between its spending and its revenues, is growing too large
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7447531.stm
132

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 21/06/2008 13:01:03
Hi Fairfax,

I quite agree and, just to say again, I'm no economist and yet I would suggest that while in modern times a central government's influence on the economy has lessened, it certainly hasn't been removed. Thus, my belief that upon independence Scotland would, like all the other modern West European countries, North-West European countries, find a quite comfortable balance. The thing I find strange and mildly insulting is that Scotland is unique out of West European countries, North-West European countries, in being unable to find this balance.

Anyway, the far more appealing aspect of the arguments between the union and independence should really be the impact Scotland could have in transforming politics in the British Isles. It's my belief that relations with all our neighbours would be enhanced with the creation of a Council of the Isles involving Ireland too so expanding politics in the British Isles. It would recognise the interdependency and yet small differences int he politics of the British Isles. It would allow the countries to discuss areas of mutual interest and create proper approaches to European Council discussions and the like. It could be great, we've just got to bring about such a situation.
133

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:02:25
152. Strange that the governments own figures, GERs, (see top of page...) show that Scotland subisidises the rest of the UK. Are you incapable of addressing facts rather than just inventing guff?
134

Media 1,

cape town 21/06/2008 13:03:11
If you were to truly ask which of the four member of the union are the most bitter and twisted, it would be Scotland for sure.
England is a big nation, they are recognised globally as the former British Empire. The most spoken langauge in the world is ENGLISH, they are the proud nation who boast of the worlds most astonishing cities in London, they are the winners of two world wars and a world cup, they are ENGLAND and they dont hate the Scots because they hate the French and the Germans, as well as the Argentinians.
Just visit Scotland when England are playing football and you will note the level of desperation that exists in our society, and that level of pathetic and trivial small dog mania is an SNP initiative.
135

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:03:12
150. Has there been a referendum we all missed? Still, very Unionist of you to speak on everyone else's behalf, well done.
136

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:04:00
147. Good, so you will support a referendum before deciding and declaiming what the majority want re independence?
137

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 13:09:55
#115 Carmichael

Do you not think that you already live in a modern NW-European country?

Doesn't the UK already have a good relationship with Ireland? As for an independent Scotland's relationship with the UK, and excellent relationship would be a matter of necessity, not choice.
138

Geoff,

sa 21/06/2008 13:10:36
142 Media 1-did you watch the game last night-nailbiter of note?
153 John S.-I dont think that Westminster is 'desperate to keep Scotland in the Union". I think that many people in the United Kingdom value the Union and wish to preserve the Union so keeping the home nations together merely follows -try to see it from this point of view. If the Scottish people decide to leave the Union then it is their choice to make.
139

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 13:12:19
156 Ayrshire Scot
I've just checked the top of the page. It says £2.7bn deficit with oil revenues and £10.2bn without. How does this show that Scotland "susidises" the rest of the UK. How can you subsidise with a deficit? This must be a new economic concept.
140

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 13:12:34
127 & 152 Richard1,21/06/2008 12:29:28

The UK has a land mass of 94,600 sq mi, of which
Scotland has 30,414 sq mi,
England has 50,346 sq mi
Wales has 8,022 sq mi
NI has 5,345 sq mi

Therefor Scotland is about 60% of the landmass of England, so it is the 2nd largest constituent part of the UK, with Wales being the smallest part.

Having said that the coastline of Scotland is the longest part of the coastline of the UK (7,332 mi, with the English Coastline only being 2,500mi or so), and all policing and fisheries protection for the Scottish coastline are paid for from the Scottish purse, and is not apportioned on a population basis to England, as are things apportioned to Scotland, that are 'deemed to be beneficial for the 'Whole of The UK', another little hiccough in the GERS formula.

I hope this has sorted out yer befuddled brain, the presumption here is, of course, that you have one!

You really are confused owld son I'd go for a wee lie down if I was yourself.
141

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:13:15
161. Sadly we can - Scotland's GDP growth over the last 30 years is half that of comparable small EU states, well behind the UK, and a quarter of Ireland's.... this may be related to UK macroenomic policy totally unsuited to Scotland and squandering of Scotland's oil revenues...
142

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:15:42
164. Because the actual current account is in surplus (c £600m) - i.e tax and other revenue receipts from Scotland are higher than total spending in Scotland - the surplus going to subsidise the rest of the UK...the £2.4bn figure includes investment borrowing..... the comparable figure the UK inlcuding that is an $80bn deficit...
143

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 13:16:29
# 120 Tin Man writes:-
#116 bullly

'On the other hand, those of us who choose to live here in the real world, see a nation scarred from three centuries of subservience, cringing forelock touching and meek acceptance of third rate aspiration'

I am sorry for you, if that really is your opinion. I choose to differ.


Save your sympathy for those dispossessed of the basics of human life.

I do not know where you live, but suggest you take a wider look at the real world around you.

If what you see represents the height of your aspirations for Scottish society, then I suggest that you are part of the problem, and certainly not part of the solution.

It may be that you have never travelled very far from whatever middle class enclave you occupy.

The concepts of unemployment, damp housing, despair, drug taking, unnecessary teenage pregnancies, vandalism, lack of ambition, youth violence, ill health, mortality rates, child poverty, alcohol abuse, lack of social facilities such as post offices, hospitals, and affordable public transport systems et al, may be alien to you, however, thankfully, your corrupt and asinine trough dippers are being chased, in favour of those of us who put the well-being of the citizens of Scotland as our first priority.

144

scottish person,

paisley 21/06/2008 13:16:53
Will everyone please ignore richar(Dick)the first.
Scotland dont need to rely on oil, have you heard of Scotch whisky.It provides billions of revenue to the poor english government. We dont jusy have oil up here.
145

Carmichael, A.,

21/06/2008 13:17:04
162 - Tin Man,

The majority of modern European countries are sovereign. As for Ireland, I think Scotland could contribute to closer relations with all our neighbours in the British Isles and beyond. I don't think choice comes into it because that's what modern successful and good countries do anyway because they have the proper sovereignty to do so.
146

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 13:17:13
#165 Boggle

What makes you think that policing and fishery protection are paid for entirely 'out of the Scottish purse'? Is 80% of the funding not derived from UK-wide taxation?
147

Lillig,

21/06/2008 13:18:07
I am sick to the back teeth of all this blathering about what we would have, what we wouldn't have, what we could have, what we don't have.

What we don't have is the freedom and right to run our own country - and our own destiny, good or bad - according to what the Scots people want.

What we do have is a very unclear situation regarding the status of the wealth of our country or the contributions Scots have made to the Union, both in terms of tax and in other more difficult to measure criteria.

I am sick of hearing the increasing warcry from south of the border that we are heavily subsidised. Not taking into account contributions made from north of the border - oil at the forefront of this.

The fact is that in a "marriage", which is technically what we have between Scotland and England, and when there is a divorce, there is a settlement.

We are owed!! We are owed for the years of our oil propping up a government that was on the way down. We are owed for years of being ignored at the level of investment. We are owed for being starved of infrastructure to help us grow.

There will never be a right moment to become independent. But we have to have the courage to do it and to stand behind the SNP to achieve the best possible divorce settlement.

Other poorer countries have become independent - why can't we?
148

Jimmy the Pie,

21/06/2008 13:18:37
Media 1

Your comments about England winning 2 world wars and a world cup are utterly pathetic.

Mind you we would expect nothing less from an imbecile such as yourself.

Why don't you go and give your houseboy a good beating and relive the glories that were SA before Nelson won it.
149

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:20:56
#166 - What other small European country was so heavily dependent on heavy industry and mining? Size is not the issue, Ayrshire Scot, you need to find industrial and economic equivalence. No other small European state was as dependent as Scotland was on, for example, the steel industry, shipbuilding and mining. Ireland, of course, had a largely agrarian economy within which the church undertook most of the teaching and there was (and is) no free at the point of contact health service.

Whether independent or not Scotland would have experienced a very difficult couple of decades because our economic base was rooted in the 19th and early 20th century. What Scotland went through, the US rust belt went through, South Wales went through, the North of England went through, the Ruhr went through, north-east France went through, and so on. The point is, where are we now? Ho do Scotland's rates of growth compare now? Certainly when compared to Ireland I think you will find we are actually doing a whole lot better.
150

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:22:00
#167 - And thus in all those previous years when the oil price was not so high, we were in deficit. You cannot have it both ways.
151

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 13:22:04
#168 Bully

I look forward to the Golden Dawn. Please explain what vandalism has to do with independence, and why you think there is a lot of unemployment in Scotland?
152

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:23:56
175. Had we been independent in th 70s-80s, we would have benefitted from £250 billion of oil revenues, so I would suggest would be in a much much better position than now, and would have invested in infrastructure and promoted growth.... you cannot have it both ways..
153

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:24:33
176. The £5bn surplus is based on oil revenues of $65 a barrel... they are currently twice that...
154

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:24:56
#169 - And whisky would still provide substantial revenue for Westminster if Scotland were independent as it would still be taxed at the point of sale. And more Scotch is bought in England than in Scotland. In fact, the English might even raise the tax on spirits so generating even more revenue for the English exchequer.
155

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:26:16
#173 - Rubbish. We have the fredom to decide our destiny. We could all vote SNP at the next election and within five years Scotland could be an independent country. Stop being such a victim.
156

Geoff,

sa 21/06/2008 13:26:35
Slightly off subject have just seen "The three Lives of William Wallace"-fascinating documentary that should be seen by Nats and Uni's alike.
157

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:27:22
172. Ricahrd - how sad to see you becoming hysterical and abusive.... you just said above the UK deficit this year was £8bn, now you say it is £42 billion? Are you confused? I also linked to the BBC and Gaurdian re. current UK deficit. Anyway, glas we agree you were wrong on £8 billion, and also glad we agree that the UK is running a horrific deficit and is being reprimanded by the EU...makes you wonder how this bankrupt state can afford to pay for its services does it not? Is shrill despair and panic and the collapsing unionist case causing you to become angry Rochard?
158

scottish person,

paisley 21/06/2008 13:27:27
media1
I didnt realise that morons like you still existed. england won two world wars. You are a typical little englander who thinks nothing exists north of watford. Try looking at the tartan army and compare the knuckle dragging drongos who follow your mob. Listen to the inane drivel from John Motson on beckam and co. We dont do arselicking in SCOTLAND.
Two world wars, you are forgetting the Americans who saved your bacon. You also tend to accept people like the drunken little harry from the house of windy as a brave little chap, just like his uncle eddie.
Give us a break you are nothing but a racist. Oh and get your facts right.
159

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 13:27:37
What the snp said about GERS


Mr Swinney: If so much economic progress has been made under the present Administration, why—according to the dodgy dossier entitled "Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland

Perhaps that estimate is so dodgy that the authors of GERS had to include the statement:

The second flaw is that GERS significantly overestimates Scottish spending

Mr Swinney: In my speech, I presented a number of substantial criticisms to do with the weakness of the GERS document

The SNP amendment dismisses GERS as scaremongering,

We heard several questions from Mr Swinney about the accuracy of GERS figures
160

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:29:33
186...erm, the SNP has been calling for fiscal autonomy for some time.....
161

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:29:41
#178 - And we would have had to have paid for an NHS, welfare benefits, pensions. And, as we have already seen, the oil money and other tax money would not have covered it.
162

David MacVicar,

web 21/06/2008 13:30:27
The Headline if the Scotsman was not biased towards the Union.

========================
U.K. - B A N K R U P T.
========================

#86 Auld Twa, 'How much is UK in deficit':

UK Deficit widened to £4.3bn in April.
Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=199

At the end of December 2007 general government debt was £618.8 billion, equivalent to 43.8 per cent of GDP.
Yearly deficit: Provisional estimates show that for the calendar year 2007 the UK recorded a government deficit of £39.4 billion.
**** More debt than Scotland gets in its entire BLOCK Grant ***
**** Scotland in SURPLUS during the same period ****
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=277&Pos=1&ColRank=1&Rank=208

Conclusion UK state - primarily England cost Scots many Billions every year.

Lets Kiss the morally and financially bankrupt Union goodbye ;)
163

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:30:40
185. Niko - you will note that this years GERS contain 3500 corrections to previous GERS... which "understinated Scottish revenues and over-estinated Scotland's share of expenditure"...
164

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:31:57
180. Richard - glad we agree the UK has a huge deficit and is bankrupt and probably unable to pay for NHS and education...
165

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:31:59
#179 - And what about all the other years when the oil price was much lower?
166

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 13:32:29
#184 scottish

I guess you don't support the Teddy-Bears, then?

Is there a connection with GERS?
167

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:33:07
188. Border Scot - the £250 billion in oil revenues over that period would have more than DOUBLE expenditure in Scotland - not only would it have covered it, as the UK government's own report on the economics at the time said, Scotland's big problem would have been huge and chronic surplus....
168

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 13:36:26
#184 scottish

'Give us a break you are nothing but a racist'

Oh dear..... and you are holier-than-thou.


169

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 13:37:18
164 Ugly George,Edinburgh 21/06/2008 13:12:19

Aye and the sums don't add up either.
If we are in deficit to the tune of £10bn without oil and only £2.7 bn with oil, then as an Independent country without having to pay for the 'Union Divided', we would be showing a surplus.
The Current account is already in Surplus, but when we 'pay for' Trident, The Olympics and other Essentially English things we then go into 'deficit'.
I.e. when we subsidise England we run up a deficit.
No ifs, No buts!!

171 The Tin Man,21/06/2008 13:17:13

In a word NO!
Your hypothesis, suggests that Scotland only raises 20% of it's expenditure by taxation within Scotland, which is totally erroneous, even the GERS figure do not make that ridiculous and outlandish claim!

Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK, ergo any monies that are returned to Scotland from Tax or other revenues, generated within the Scottish Sphere, that are not equal to the whole are, ipso facto, a subsidy to the rest of the UK!

In 1968 an SI was forced on the UK parliament, detailing the 'Sphere of Scottish' influence i.e. the area around Scotland that for jurisprudence and policing would be covered by and therefor paid for from the Scottish Purse, that also includes the portion of the North Sea 'stolen' from Scotland under the 1999 act, so Scotland is policing 'English Waters' at cost to the Scottish Taxpayer, (another subsidy).

This is one of the reason that Policing and Public safety costs are higher per capita in Scotland than the rest of the UK. Scotland has to run and pay for the Fisheries Protection Vessels which were purchased by and are operated by the Scottish Government (a fledgling Scottish Navy perhaps ;-) )
170

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:38:06
#195 - The McCrone Report - shamefully suppressed by the UK government - was written at the height of the oil crisis of the mid-70s and failed to anticipate the collapse in the oil price that occurred just a few years later. It was a predictive document that predicted incorrectly.
171

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:39:22
196 - WHy then is the UK facing action from the EU over its unacceptably large deficit? Her, have a wee rea and try to calm down, stop shouting and generally making Unionists look like hysterical, screeching dribbling morons?

The government yesterday suffered the ignominy of being lumped with Hungary as the sole members of the EU-27 to be rapped over the knuckles by the European commission for running an excessive budget deficit.

The commission severely criticised Britain for a "significant deterioration" in its budgetary situation and the government for conducting an expansionary fiscal policy despite economic good times.

And it warned that the chancellor had exacerbated the deficit with last month's tax cuts to offset the abolition of the 10p starting rate, ensuring that it would be well above the 3% Maastricht treaty limit this year and next.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/12/economy.eu?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

The European Commission is to start disciplinary proceedings against the UK for breaching its economic rules.

It says Britain's budget deficit, the gap between its spending and its revenues, is growing too large
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7447531.stm
172

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:42:02
#198 - The current account is in surplus now. This is a very recent phenomonen. Historically, Scotland is still in deficit.
173

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:44:43
#202 - No, we have found out that as a result of historically high oil prices Scotland is now a net contributor to the UK's coffers. That, in turn, means that when oil prices were not as high - in other words for most of the previous 20 to 25 years - we were a net beneficiary and so were being subsidised. Isn't it good that Scotland is now getting a chance to put something back?
174

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:44:59
201. Richard, sadly you make no sense. Scotland has had lower growth than the UK, and also subsidised it. In part this is due to £250 billion of oil revenue bypassing Scotland. What is hard to understand about that? One person may get lower wage rises than another, but still transfer money to them.
175

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:46:48
205. Sadly this does not stack up. During the 80s, spending in Scotland was c£6 billion, oil revenues alone were more than that..... so with additional receipts from income tax, VAT, etc, Scotland was still subsidising the UK..... you ignore the fact spending in Scotland was lower then, and oil production higher...
176

Geoff,

sa 21/06/2008 13:46:58
200 Ayrshire scot-thats one double century over Meths!
Bullets flying thick and fast this afternoon. I'm keeping out of it for now-going to watcgh the rugby.
Enjoy.
177

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:47:01
208. per year
178

David MacVicar,

web 21/06/2008 13:47:44
So it official:
"SCOTLAND'S economy would have had a budget deficit of £2.7 billion"

last year UK deficit: £39.4 billion

England,Wales and NI deficit = £36.7 Billion.

*This is within current UK structure. An independent Scotland would recieve UK business taxes currently accrued to London. We would also recieve annual expenses of 8 - 10% of UK debt, which we are effectively paying for anyway.
However growing UK debt means Scotland will inherit a large amount of debt incurred for Capital and defence costs. Money not spent in Scotland and NOT for anything Scots want anyway - Illegal War, Trident, Nuclear, London infrastructure. - See the excellent posts by Traquir for a breakdown and it is easy to see that it is Scots are paying to prop up the UK AND spcifically for policies we detest!
179

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:48:16
204. Richard - the UK shows a deficit on both. Scotland shows a surplus on both at current oil prices, and a current account surplus assuming oil prices half of current. Seems Scotland is stronger than the UK and should maximise that potential
180

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:50:31
213. sorry, could you include a point and a little sanity in your post, you have carelessly forgotten them in this post making it seem like the dribblings of a moron
181

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 13:51:32
#198 Boggle

Perhaps you are right that a disproportionate amount of taxes raised in Scotland goes on fisheries protection. The same could probably be said for Cornwall. I was merely pointing-out that council tax is the only local tax we have. Other taxation (about 80%?) is distributed from the centre (Westminster) to the regions (all parts of the UK).
182

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:51:42
#204 - The nationalists are not intrested in the reality, they are interested in painting a picture that depicts Scotland as an abused victim of English profligacy. In that way, they hope, they will build resentment in Scotland that will translate into a vote for independence.

When the truth is discovered post-independence and services are being cut and/or taxes are being raised, the nationalists will not mind because there will be no holding them to account. They know that once independence is achieved, there is no going back. In normal elections, voters can change their minds and boot a party out of office. You can't change your mind once you have voted for independence.

This is what makes the SNP so very different to other political parties. It is not a rolling, on-going project; it is a coalition with one aim and one aim only - Scottish independence. When that happens, the SNP will have done its job. In this way, it is not accountable to the electorate in the way other parties are. This, in turn, means that it is much easier for it to distort the truth, ignore the facts and make unsubstantiated claims. You have to see Ayrshire Scot's arguments in that light.
183

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:54:01
219. Why is Scotland the only country in history to have discovered oil, then got poorer?
184

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:54:06
#208 - No the Scottish Office's budget was £6 billion, which is completely different to total expenditure on and in Scotland. It ignores, for example, all welfare and pension payments made during that time, all of which were paid centrally.
185

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 13:54:46
218. It is easier for a dribbling moron to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to decipher your vacuous mssives...
186

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:56:46
#220 - Scotland has got richer since North Sea oil was discovered.
187

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 13:57:43
Richard - I refer you to my post at 219
188

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 13:58:00
Ayrshire Scot (183): "the UK is running a horrific deficit and is being reprimanded by the EU"

That's certainly correct, although the EU has similarly reprimanded France, Germany, Italy, Spain, ... To be fair, as a percentage of GDP, net debt is not particularly worrying, although I'd prefer it to be much lower. Compare the UK to other EU nations here:

http://www.econstats.com/weo/V008.htm
189

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 14:02:22
226. Is that why the electrorate elected the SNP as the government? and will the SNP's sconomic disaster policies lead to a huge deficit of the type the UK has a present?
190

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 14:03:20
229. If the offending sticker is placed on one of the windows, Richard aboive has some expertise at licking same, he may be able to scour it off for you
191

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 14:09:37
David MacVicar (211): "We would also recieve annual expenses of 8 - 10% of UK debt, which we are effectively paying for anyway."

It's by no means clear that Scotland would be required to assume its percentage of UK debt -- all would be up for negotiation at secession. One possibility would be no share of UK debt in return for giving up (i) all future share of ownership of, say, UK Armed Forces, since Scotland has no wish to continue high defence spending, and (ii) any share in UK assets outside Scotland.

"it is easy to see that it is Scots are paying to prop up the UK"

This is false. England alone has a trillion pound GDP. In this sense, oil income to the Treasury is a second-order change, although it's obviously a welcome one.
192

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 14:10:58
237. Richard, I refer to you to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B98FGeNyGS0&mode=related&search=sheep%20lambs
193

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 14:13:19
Richard - is this you in action?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWbLjXCnGj0
194

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 14:13:34
#231 - As is always the case in Scottish elections, last year most Scots voted for parties that supported the Union. However, I don't think that anyone will deny that the SNP did well by positioning itself as the party best placed to defeat Labour.

I hope that the SNP's economic policies are very successful and show just what Scotland can achieve within the Union.
195

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 14:15:57
242. Always the case? How very unionist of you to tell us how we will always vote...
196

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 14:17:51
#241 - Ayshire's aim is the SNP's aim: to paint the UK economy in as bad a light as possible while at the same time claiming that this is all England's fault because an independent Scotland would be rich. They do not need any of this to be true, they just need enough Scots to believe them so that they get a "Yes" for independence. And when it turns out they were being less than honest in their claims and that there is, in fact, a very high price to pay for independence, what wil they care? They will have got what they wanted. Again, it is very important to see what Ayrshire is saying in this context.
197

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 14:19:05
#243 - No, how very accurate of me.

Can you point me in the direction of the last national election in Scotland when the unionist parties did not secure a majority of the votes?
198

frank mcbride,

luitania 21/06/2008 14:19:39
The fact that the most prominent GERS supporter is missing from this thread should tell the Unionist apologists, here, that the accounting sham that is GERS has truly been rumbled.

Why are we again having to listen to the scaremongerring of the '70s???

Scotland can't support itself?????????????

Oil is running out?????????????????????

Scotland's influence will be diminished with Independence????????????????

An Independent Scotland will have punitive tax rates????????????????

The is not one shred of evidence, even in the pokled GERS analysis, to support any of the above contentions. But, still, Unionist apologists will attempt to assert them as facts.

The politics of fear have been tried and failed. Each opportunity given to the people of Scotland to take more control of their own destiny, has been supported by the electorate of Scotland - 1979 & 1997.

When the people of Scotland are given, in the very near future, the opportunity to take FULL control of their own affairs, I am confident that they will once again vote positively.
199

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 14:19:48
244. Border - can you point to any post by me where I blame England for anything? The Unionists largely propagate their arguments by dishonesty and lies - post 244 is an example. Predictions of doom, disaster, £5000 tax bills, hiding th extent of north Sea oil revenues are all tried and tested tactics.

200

Edward,

21/06/2008 14:19:57
#225 Border Scot
Erm no thats not true!
In comparison to other oil producing countries, or even regions, Scotland is poorer
or are you saying the oil producing provibces in Canada are poorer than Scotland?
201

scottish person,

paisley 21/06/2008 14:25:35
Yes Richard the 1st, I am holier than thou, you should try it sometime, its easy.
You are not such a great advert for english education either there are only two s's in subsidy.
Give it a rest, we have been subsidising england for years with oil and whisky revenue. I agree with you though that the tories wont be any better than the oafs who are in power. The majority of spending goes to the mod', the biggest gravy train in the uk.I know I used to work in faslane and coulport, where their only concern was the colour of the carpets in their plush new offices.
202

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 14:28:22
#247 - You do not need to say it, you imply it successfully enough. For example, your incorrect statement at 208, which included this line:

"During the 80s, spending in Scotland was c£6 billion, oil revenues alone were more than that..... so with additional receipts from income tax, VAT, etc, Scotland was still subsidising the UK"

Or were you referring to the Welsh and the Northern Irish? If so, I apologise.

#248 - That may or may not be true, I don't know. But it is an incontestable fact that Scotland is richer now than it was when oil was discovered. Ayrshire had claimed we were the only country to have discovered oil and got poorer. I was responding to that claim.
203

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 14:31:08
#246 frank mcbride

"Each opportunity given to the people of Scotland to take more control of their own destiny, has been supported by the electorate of Scotland - 1979 & 1997"


Given by the arch-numpty Unionist labour party. no less

"The politics of fear" speaking of which whats your view on this Frank

"The Calman Commission on the future of Scottish home rule fears public meetings and its internet site are vulnerable to "hijack" by Nationalists"

Commission members are also concerned about inviting contributions on the website, saying that "carried considerable risks if not approached with caution".



http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.2353737.0.warning_over_hijacking_of_constitution_meetings.php

204

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 14:31:49
#250 - How has Scotland been subsidising England through whisky production? Do you not understand that an English government would still tax whisky sales at the same rate as the UK government does now, or perhaps at an even higher rate?
205

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 14:36:46
#191 Ayrshire Scot™,

"Niko - you will note that this years GERS contain 3500 corrections"

Ayrshire 'SOME' Unionists can lie (conservatives)but 3500 is stretching it a little bit.....Where's your evidence?
206

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 14:37:41
scottish person (250): "The majority of spending goes to the mod', the biggest gravy train in the uk."

The MOD's current budget is some £30 billion. In comparison, the UK spends £12 billion on incapacity benefit, £100 billion on the NHS and some £60 billion on education. Total government spending is, IIRC, some £500 billion per year, so defence is a fairly small percentage of the total.
207

scottish person,

paisley 21/06/2008 14:37:42
#254
Not if we were independent.
Richard 1st, please dont teach your three year old to be racist, theres a good chap.
208

,

21/06/2008 14:38:29
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209

,

21/06/2008 14:41:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
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210

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 14:42:34
#258 - Eh? Are you saying the English would not be able to tax whisky sales or that Scotland would no lomger export whisky to England? Either way you are completely wrong.
211

Ugly George,

Ediburgh 21/06/2008 14:44:59
206 Ayrshire Scot
You really need to be more careful with your use of figures as you have just contradicted your own argument. The total £250bn figure for oil/gas revenues has been obtained by applying the appropriate deflator to total oil/gas revenues since ther inception in 1964/65.(43 years ago)i.e it gives the revenue in todays prices or real terms as the actual amount is about £140bn. Check BERR stats.

The GERS show a deficit of £10.2bn (in todays prices) for 1 year if no oil revenues are taken into account.

You can do the summs for yourself - £250bn over 43 years = 5.8bn per year. ie an average of 5.8 bn per year in todays prices

In other words the figures indicate that total oil and gas revenues (even including revenues from gas fields nearer to England) have not even covered the deficit in Scotland.

212

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 21/06/2008 14:50:25
Richard, your figures are correct when they are applied to stated borrowings by Brown. But why havent you stated and acknowledge the 200 billion in pfi/ppp financial catastrophy that is going to be paid for over the next thirty years. Oh and the little matter that all the infrastructure built will revert to the financiers ownership. I think you need to be truthfull here by looking at the outside worlds opinion on the UK economy. Every financial commentator highlights the unequalled exposure of Britains Debt burden, as making it a basket case. Stop reading the rubbish financial press of the UK. Read about how the UK is practically owned by everyone except the UK.

The supposed British Public are seen by the Westminster Government as the cash cow to be milked to get them further spending money because of their incompetance. The Westminster Parliamentary System see the people as servants to them because there is no Constitution to protect the People from Government. Of course the Scottish Constitution nominates the People as the Sovereign Power to be served by the Government and Royal Family. Scotland if Independant right now, would have had the same rights as the Irish People and would have voted on the EU Constitution. Gordon Brown and his cabal of dictators would not have been able to deny Scots the right to decide Scotlands future.

Now away and soak your head Mr. Unionist. If you are English or want to be English go back down south and get ready for the Proms. We dont want people who despise our Country living here. Anyone who loves it is quite welcome and that applies to Scottish Muslims who unlike their counterparts down south dont get persecuted by the British Secret Thought Police.

Saor Alba
213

,

21/06/2008 14:51:30
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214

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 14:55:58
262 Border Scot.

England can tax anything they would like once we are Independent in their own country.

but export tax would have to be paid for things leaving Scotland.

;-)
215

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:03:32
266 Thomas P
What point are you trying to make. If there was such a thing as an "export" tax it would have to be paid by the exporter ie the Scottish whisky industry.
216

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:05:26
A Better Way (264): "If you are English or want to be English go back down south and get ready for the Proms."

Roughly 10 per cent of Scotland's population is English. Are you really supporting their expulsion from Scotland?
217

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 15:08:24
8 and half hours since I posted my original point and I am still waiting for an answer.

How can you build up an oil fund like Norway's on a surplus that is one tenth of Norway's?
218

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:08:39
267 Ugly George,Edinburgh

"...paid by the exporter ie the Scottish whisky industry."

Overall the prices would rise for the consumer. I would be far more interested on increasing prices for water and energy though.

Water and Oil is one of the two most exported items out of Scotland to England.

219

A Better Way,

Republic of Scotland 21/06/2008 15:09:22
Border Traitor and dont you realise that the English Government would have to import all of their oil from overseas. I suppose that would make a nice whole in their economy built out of producing nothing. The Financial Centre of London has already shown a worrying trend of Companies relocating to Ireland and the continent because of UK taxes. Lets think what the Edinburgh scenario comes into being after Independance. 12.% Corporate taxes versus overtaxed London. I dont think many companies will hesitate too relocate to a better city just a hop away from the rest of Europe and a decaying London.

The wealth we reclaim after Independance is just a starting point. What we build it to is the real bonanza that would make us climb to one of the top 5 richest countries on this planet. And of course that particular Scottish Nation wouldnt be trying to be a world player by invading countries and killing a million men women and children like they have in Iraq. I fear for the poor people of Iran, and the amount of death and destruction that our greed for oil will bring to them. Can we please stop murdering other people for their wealth and get rid of the uk system. Then we can take the UK's Security Council seat and the seat at the head of the EU, to stop them creating military aggression that has resulted in the deaths of so many of our young folk on a daily basis.
220

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 15:09:46
#268 The more extreme nats would - they still have some nasty racist little s h i t e s in their midst that give most sensible nats a bad name.
221

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:10:59
#269

"How can you build up an oil fund like Norway's on a surplus that is one tenth of Norway's?"

Scotland would not manage to compete with Norway and create an 'Oul Fund' of similar size.

It is the idea what an 'Oil Fund' could do. If we put 1 billion away per year since Oil was discovered we could have a lovely number right now and banks paying interest on it.
222

danbob,

21/06/2008 15:11:25
264# And a lot of us scots live in England as well muppet. But unlike idiots like you we have the social skills to get along, communicate, and be friends with our english neighbours without resorting to racist crapthat belongs in the 1700s.
223

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:11:41
ThomasP (270): "I would be far more interested on increasing prices for water and energy though."

Increasing prices implies losing business if the consumer has alternative supplies. There is no absolute need for England to import either water or oil from Scotland -- the idea that England lacks water is a peculiar fantasy.
224

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 15:12:06
One 'Big Nationalist Lie' that the UK has been stealing from Scotland for decades has again been completely blown out of the water.

Another 'Big Nationalist Lie' that Scotland is financially worse off being in the UK has also been blown completely out of the water.

As has the SNP's long-held lie that Scotland produces 95% of UK oil.....when it is actually 83%.

The nats can scream from the rooftops that the oil will last another 50 years but they will steer well clear of the fact that the big oil companies are moving out because the fields have long since matured and production is declining. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be selling up to the 'scavenger oil companies', would they?!

SNP and their supporters = LIES, LIES AND MORE LIES.
225

frank mcbride,

lusitania 21/06/2008 15:12:22
#253, Niko.

Yes, you are correct. The Unionists did give the people of Scotland those opportunities. Unfortunately, they were very limited. Even at that they reneged in 1979.

With reference to Calman: a perfect example of the politics of fear/scaremongering, call it what you may.

Fortunately, however, for the people of Scotland, they will have the opportunity to vote for Independence in the very near future - no thanks to the Unionist Alliance.
226

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 15:13:55
#271 "climb to one of the top 5 richest countries on this planet"

You are joking? Even in a very successful Scottish economy the size of our economy would be dwarfed by many other countries.

The only measure I could see as being "rich" would be GDP per capita - but then would mean that Equatorial Guinea is the "richest" country in the world.
227

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:14:00
270 Thomas P

Scotland exports water? Do you mean bottled Highland Spring water? Is this a major earner?

You also say that you would like to increase prices for energy. I assume therefore that you feel developing countries who are already struggling to maintain basic services should pay more for oil.
228

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:14:21
275 Fairfax.

"Increasing prices implies losing business if the consumer has alternative supplies."

True. But water and oil sell themselves. England imports her own water from Scotland numpty and we could squeeze alot out of her.
229

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:15:22
#271 - Drivel. Pure, unadulterated drivel; from someone who believes that people who do not share his views are traitors.
230

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 15:15:41
#273 the problem is though Thomas is that the Nats keep telling us that this Oil Fund is somehow going to pay for everthing post-independence. On the current figures - it won't.
231

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:16:19
279 Ugly George,Edinburgh

"Scotland exports water? Do you mean bottled Highland Spring water? Is this a major earner?"

It does not matter because water is a resource you need to survive and fresh water is becoming more scarce in todays world.

"You also say that you would like to increase prices for energy. I assume therefore that you feel developing countries who are already struggling to maintain basic services should pay more for oil."

Britain currently makes enough oil for herself, just. England would probely be the only country we sell our oil with and therefore our prices would not effect developing countries.
232

Uilleam Mor,

21/06/2008 15:16:55
Another newpaper article claiming that the poor little Scots would not be able to stand on their own feet.

Indeed, if the articles of late in the Herald and the Hootsman regarding oil and GERS were to be believed, it would be a curse for Scotland to have control of the oil in Scottish waters.

I am so thankful that the great benevolent Westminster looks after my humble little life. I am but a poor Scot, and I get down on my knees every night to give thanks for the charity given to me.

Thany you oh thank you dear Herald and Scotsman journalists for keeping on reminding me of my poor and humble position in this great Union.

And shame on any of you posters who dare to comment that we are not a kept Nation.

233

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 15:17:51
#282 I should have said a post-oil post-independence.

My biggest concern in terms of economics is what happens to the Scottish economy after North Sea oil has run out. It may be 50 years or so away but action needs to be taken now - to make sure the Scottish Economy is completely self-reliant in the post-oil era.
234

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:17:54
#280 - You mean the England where the reservoirs are full and it has not stopped raining for two years?
235

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:17:54
282 The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON)

The Oil Fund will pay for alot of things - in future

once the oil runs out and we need some investment etc etc
236

democracy,

Scottish Borders 21/06/2008 15:18:48
With the list shown by #17 Traquir,Alba. and denied by the lying Unionists, this is why the Westminster lot are panicking at the loss of those revenues as they would be hard pushed to run their own country,England, with 51M people, never mind UK total of 60M, without the revenues of the other three IMPORTANT countries.

In other words, Westminster has not, or ever, run the UK for the benefit of ALL, but solely for the benefit of London and the SE.
They claim, and have always lied about it,that Scotland could not survive without the oil, although it only totals 8% of the Scottish revenues, the actual REAL truth is that ENGLAND could not survive without the total revenues of the other 3 countries, THAT is why they do NOT want any of us to have independence, because of their own selfish self-interest, End of story!!!
237

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 15:19:15
273. Each £1bn would only yield £20-25m for public spending as (at least) half of the interest needs to be reinvested to keep up with inflation.

It would take 40-50 years for the Oil Fund to even start paying for itself.

275. That 'England needs Scotland's water' is one of my favourite Nat Lies. Everyone in the world (except the nats, it seems) knows it rains a lot in England. They also have a vast reservoir network plus an entire District of Lakes (I forget its name) and even a growing canal/pipe network to transport it around the country.

Southern England may suffer the occasional drought but the rest of England has always had enough water to supply the area. They have just had trouble with transporting the quantities needed.
238

Brianwci,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:19:44
What's to row about? Oil is $140 a barrel and rising, despite occasional slippage.
The Oil economists who were being laughed at 3 years ago when they were forecasting Oil at $100 a barrel now say events have overtaken them and that $200 a barrel is quite possible. It would be handy if Labour doomsayers like Prof McLaren read some of these more realistic, non politically biased reports.

Bear in mind these figures are based on Oil BEFORE it was anywhere near $100 a barrel. Prof McLaren and his team should also point out that oil which hitherto was uneconomical to drill is now well with the sphere of economic viability.

No wonder Ms Alexander wants the referendum now. With every month that goes by the Independence case strengthens as the unionist case weakens.

Brian Hill
239

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:20:11
Border Scot.

England does not have enough water for herself and the 60 million others that reside there.

I am not saying that England imports all of her water but it does during the summer especailly from Scotland.
240

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:20:16
#283 - Scotland does not own the oil, the oil companies do. An independent Scotland may - if negotiations go the right way - get around 85% of the tax receipts from North Sea oil extraction. To get any control over where oil was sold Scotlsnd would need to nationalise the oil fields. Scotland would not be able to afford to do that.
241

,

21/06/2008 15:20:44
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242

danbob,

21/06/2008 15:21:30
Thomas P 283# Oil is sold on the open market. The market decides the price.
243

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:21:42
A Better Way (271): "I suppose that would make a nice whole in their economy built out of producing nothing."

Roughly 25% of the English economy is based on manufacturing. Further, some service industries are extremely profitable, such as software. To give only one example, almost all mobile phones use a CPU designed by the extremely profitable ARM, here in Cambridge: the heart of the phone in almost every Scot's pocket is designed here in England. No doubt you'll immediately consign yours to the bin.

"The Financial Centre of London has already shown a worrying trend of Companies relocating to Ireland and the continent because of UK taxes."

It has indeed, due primarily to the careless government of those notorious Scots Brown and Darling.
We should ask for reparations . . .

"Then we can take the UK's Security Council seat and the seat at the head of the EU"

You're welcome to the UN seat; the UK has no seat at the head of the EU. Still, here we see your primary fantasy: that Scotland might finally humiliate an England reduced to poverty after secession of the UK. You're really not helping the SNP achieve independence with rants like this.
244

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:22:30
It said that according to data circulated in Kuwait Oil Co

(KOC), the upstream arm of state Kuwait Petroleum Corp, Kuwait's remaining proven and non-proven oil reserves are about 48 billion barrels.

Officials from KOC were not immediately available for comment to Reuters.

The DTI estimated a couple of years ago that there were still 43.8 billion barrels of extractable oil in the North Sea. That is equivalent to around £3 trillion dollars at current oil prices of $80 a barrel. That's about £1,700 billion sterling worth of extractable oil. And this does not include revenues from North Sea gas. (Compare this potential wealth with the Scottish government's current £32 billion block grant from London to run the whole country.)

The idea that the London government are deceiving Scots about the quantity and value of North Sea oil is not news. A scandalous Westminster deception was confirmed in 2005 when official government papers from the early 1970s were finally declassified and released.

It was discovered that Westminster had pocketed £200 billion of North Sea Oil revenue over the last 30 years, equivalent to £170,000 for every man, woman, and child in Scotland. This factual amount was never projected, it was downplayed, hidden, and then lied about, for political expediency. Simply because London they knew that this vast wealth could have transformed Scotland into one of the richest countries in the world.

"It was a document that could have changed the course of Scottish history" was how The Independent reported this in December 2005. Government officials told Harold Wilson in 1975 that Scotland could "go it alone quite comfortably". The Foreign Office stated that an independent Scotland would have a legitimate claim to 80 per cent of North Sea oil and gas reserves - and would make them last a century".

This suppressed British government paper has became known as The Big Oil Lie. The Independent commented: "An independent Scotland's budget surpluses
245

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:22:43
280 Thomas P
Where do you get this idea that England imports lots of water from Scotland? Where are the pipelines and why would they need to import water from Scotland when they have the huge Kielder reseroir and the lakes in Cumbria which are much closer to their population centres?
246

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/06/2008 15:23:19
#284 The Norwegians have managed to build up a large Oil fund because they have a substantially bigger surplus than Scotland - £44 billion this year compared to our £4.4 billion.

That's because they, unlike us, don't have a bloated public sector and also have higher taxes. Unless changes are made to taxation and expenditure policies the dream of an oil fund on par with Norway's is just that - a dream.
247

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:23:51
as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be "embarrassing". Scotland's currency "would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor." From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and "this situation could last for a very long time into the future."

Westminster has spent decades lying about North Sea oil, hammering propaganda into Scots that the oil is always running out. I remember first hearing this over 25 years ago. The mantra never changes. Our mantra should be Never Trust Westminster.
248

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:24:32
ThomasP (292): "England does not have enough water for herself and the 60 million others that reside there."

That's false. It is true that some densely populated cities have extremely poor water infrastructure, with the result that much is wasted, but England has no general need to import water. The only reason this trade continues is that Scotland has an obvious surplus of fresh water. What, after all, would Scotland do with this water if England has no wish to import it?
249

danbob,

21/06/2008 15:24:51
292# What clap trap. The North of England pipes water about now from Kielder water. That is in England. The only water that comes from Scotland is Highland spring.
250

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:25:22
#292 - England's population is 50 million, but that is besides the point. There may be times of drought when Scotland has exported water to England, but that is not because England does not have ebnough water, only that it does not have it in the right places. An independent England would have every incentive to build a water distribution network that would preclude the need to import any water from foreign countries and it would do so. Just as an independent England would have every incentive to invest in nuclear energy so as to preclude the need for significant energy imports.
251

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 15:27:07
271. "Scotland will take England's UN Security Council seat"??!

LOL!! These nats are insane! Brilliant!
252

Brianwci,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:27:14
HM I've just read your post. There are definite signs of desperation running through it. Must be a nightmare howling at the moon night after night with no one hearing you except other equally desperate howlers.

Hill
253

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:27:27
#299

I agree Norway doesn't have a bloated infrastructure like the UK, neither would Scotland if independent both countries have around the same population of 5 million or less.

An independent Scotland would have a leaner civil service
SNP are already pruning and weeding the existing 20 year old system which is long over due a good overhaul.
254

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:28:03
301 Daveunderwater
McCrone did not foresee the collapse in oil prices that took place in the late eighties and nineties so his analysis is not necessarily accurate.
255

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:28:29
#301 - And then two years after the McCrone Repor was written the price of oil collapsed. So McCrone was wrong. The report should not have been suppressed though.
256

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 15:28:41
The nats have clearly lost the plot now that their primary arguments proven to be lies.

Today is a fun, fun day!
257

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:29:16
It's all about OIL!!!

NOT WATER!
258

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:29:57
"The nats have clearly lost the plot now that their primary arguments proven to be lies."

Similar to the lies we have heard for years?
259

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 15:29:59
307. How many quango's have the SNP established (when they said they would be having a Bonfire of the Quangos)?

The lies are coming thick and fast now!
260

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:31:23
Reuters forecast $200 a barrel by year end, Mcrone never forecast that either..
261

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:31:44
#296 - You hit the naion the head. It is often the case that for the most fervent nationalists, Scotish independence is not the real aim. What they really want, for some strange reason, is the impoverishment of England. They do not understand that England is a very wealthy country. Or they do not want to understand it. They also fail to understand that an independent Scotland will be heavily dependent on England as it will be by far our biggest export market.
262

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:33:35
Border Scot.

Times changed. Once Scotland does become Independent ours future allies could end up our biggest Trading partners.
263

danbob,

21/06/2008 15:34:07
A better way 271# What a vivid imagination. Did you drink coffee with JK Rowling in that back street cafe in Edinburgh by any chance? Classic.
264

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:35:56
on recent visit to Norway i visited a Company who manufacture equipment for the oil industry, current orders are worth 22.2 billion Kroner, most of th equipment is bound for Korea where around 135 drill ships and semi submersible oil rigs are being built.

If the UK government had the foresight we could have had a manufacturing base that may have rivaled Norway's, but we'll never know now

A golden opportunity wasted.
265

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:37:11
Daveunderwater.

Our Oil Technology is actually incredibly advanced and is the best in the world.
266

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:37:34
315 - Fair enough and I applaud your honesty: Scottish independence because the oil price is now high and let's forget all those years when it was under $20 a barrel.

317 - So you do not see England as a future ally?
267

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:40:48
I don't dispute that I have worked in the oil industry world wide for 28 years

If our technology is the best why are we not building pipe handling equipment, blow out preventers, state of the art cranes, well control control systems and a host of other equipment used in the industry

I'll tell you why, there has been no inward investment, no oil fund, just TAKE TAKE TAKE
268

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:41:04
322 Border Scot.

From the amount of negativity surrounding Scottish Independence I would personally not aim to have England as our allies. Unless we had strong interests then I would push myself through it.

but times do change. England has interests in nuclear but we are more green.

Our interests and friends will change.
269

danbob,

21/06/2008 15:41:30
316# Absolutly right. But please dont try to export to England those silly toy nessies that seem to be in evidence everywhere you look.
270

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:42:02
323 Richard1.

"You may not like it but it provide's 300,000 jobs and a hell of a lot more revenue than oil."

Without oil those jobs could not happen.
271

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 21/06/2008 15:43:00
297 Daveunderwater
You really need to stop quoting fantasy figures in this way. The DTI (or BERR as they are now known) have made no such claim. If you check their website you will see that oil and gas reserves are classified into categories of, proven, probable, possible, potential and undiscovered. The amount of proven and probable is roughly 5bn barrels of oil. If you add up the totals including the possible and undiscovered etc. you can get about 20bn. (1 tonne = 7.33 barrels) Nowhere does it mention any figure of "48 billion barrels of extractable oil" or anything like it.
272

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:43:25
# 323

I though the discussion on this thread was about oil?

Have you any idea hown many people are involved in the Oil Industry? Apart from the thousands offshore, 10s of thousands are employed onshore.
273

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 15:43:41
201 and various other posts Richard1,21/06/2008 13:39:24

'The Growth' referred to is the UK 'estimate' of 'growth' for Scotland over time, this has been projected without the addition of 'growth' from North Sea Oil Production being attributed to Scotland, but rather spread thinly across the UK, if all the benefits of North Sea oil production had remained in Scotland from day one then Scotland would have had higher 'growth' than the rest of the UK!! Fer F cuk's sake man it's not f cukin rocket science!!!

203 Border Scot,21/06/2008 13:42:02

'Historically' Scotland was only in deficit because Westminster were fiddling the books, as is evidenced by, amongst others, The McRone Report, and the now discredited GERS publication, which this year have been subject to several thousand corrections concerning them from 2001/2 on.

As I have said before, when you strip out the 'dodgy accounting practices' the 'current account' is in surplus, this is actually tabulated in the current GERS publication, download a copy and read it!!!

275 Fairfax,21/06/2008 15:11:41

So all those 'hose pipe' bans and 'car wash' bans are a cunning ploy to lull the unsuspecting into thinking England is running out of water.

Get real I lived in the East and South East of England for 18 years and over that period of time I can remember countless water restrictions being put in place because there was not enough to go round.
I've been back in Scotland for 20 years now and my sons and daughters, who still live there tell me it is even worse now!!!
274

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:45:13
"Aberdeen has been ranked as the UK's most competitive city after London and among the top three UK cities in terms of knowledge-based businesses"
George Foulkes, Minister of State for Scotland, Jan 2002.
275

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:46:34
"Without oil the great squeeze and shake out of the economy might very well have broken the back of the government. So what was achieved by all the roustabouts, engineers, divers, pilots and the financiers was epic and central."

"And yet, barely a word about it appears in Margaret Thatcher's memoirs or those of most other ministers. It's as if an attempt was made to airbrush this industry out of Britain's national story. Which would be shameful."
Andrew Marr in 'Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain', BBC TV, June 12, 2007
276

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:46:57
331 Richard1.

Everything revolves around oil. These jobs may take in more then what oil earns us but without oil then these jobs would not happen.

Once we loose our energy reserves then other countries will become more attractive for investment and we may loose out alot.
277

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:47:06
ThomasP (325): "From the amount of negativity surrounding Scottish Independence I would personally not aim to have England as our allies."

There is no particular negativity in England towards Scottish independence. Still, I suppose I agree with you: England and Scotland will drift apart following independence. As an English academic with many friends and family in Scotland, it always surprises me quite how much bitterness and hatred a minority of Scots displays towards England.
278

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:47:12
The industry produces three million barrels of oil and gas a day - we are still a bigger producer than Kuwait, Nigeria or Indonesia. (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

The industry could be producing 60% of the UK's need for oil and 25% of its gas supply in 2020. (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

The UK oil and gas industry is estimated to sustain half a million quality jobs in the UK. (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

The North Sea currently provides three quarters of the UK's total prime energy needs. It is predicted this could rise to three fifths in 2020. (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

Natural gas powers about 35% of UK electricity generation. This is forecast to rise to over 50% by 2020. (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

The oil and gas industry has invested over £350 billion and paid over £240 billion tax (£8 billion this year). (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

The oil and gas industry contributes £35 billion per annum to the UK balance of trade. (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

The UK oil and gas industry's supply chain has a turnover in excess of £16 billion pa. It exports more than £5 billion per annum (growing at 10% per year). (Source: Oil and Gas UK)

Total sales in the Scottish oil and gas sector in 2006 rose by 10.6% to £12.9bn. International sales accounted for 33.8%. Sales to the USA rose 33.6% and were estimated at £1.22bn. (SCDI/Scottish Enterprise)

Around 40% of the turnover of the 300+ international oil companies based in Aberdeen is estimated to be overseas.
279

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:47:53
It is estimate that up to 25 billion barrels remain in the UK sector of the North Sea
Employment

The oil and gas sector accounts for some 26% of Aberdeen's jobs (Aberdeen City Council Draft Local Plan in 1998).
Companies It is estimated that there are 900 companies serving the energy sector in Aberdeen.
International

There are now 300 international energy companies with a base in Aberdeen.

Gross international activity of the oil and gas industry in Scotland is valued at around £3.8 billion.
Offshore Europe Offshore Europe is the bi-ennial oil and gas exhibition at the Aberdeen Exhibition and Conference Centre. In 2001 the exhibition attracted 25,000 visitors from 89 countries and generated £21 million for the local economy.
280

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:49:17
(1) Offshore companies, includes oil. Source: UK Offshore Operators Association (UKOOA)

The Annual Business Inquiry of the Office for National Statistics supplies only limited disaggregated data (see e.g. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/abi/downloads/section_e.xls). It has a figure of 46 NACE 40.2 enterprises in 1998 (30 in 1995); more recent data not available. Note also that industry figures estimate that some additional 223,000 people may be employed in the combined gas and oil sector (rough estimates are approximately half oil, half gas) on a temporary or indirect basis. Union figures in section 2 were provided on this wider basis.

(2) Source: UKOOA. Male and female employment figures do not sum to the figure for aggregate employment - the difference consists of contract workers
281

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:49:23
#330- The McCrone Report was wrong. The oil price collapsed soon after it was written.

And there are no water restrictions in operation anywhere in England.
282

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:50:12
Boggle (330): "Get real I lived in the East and South East of England for 18 years and over that period of time I can remember countless water restrictions being put in place because there was not enough to go round."

As I pointed out in my earlier post, there are infrastructure problems in some areas, particularly because of high population density and wastage, but there is no general water supply problem in England. To give an example, East Anglia receives less rainfall than London, but I can't recall a hosepipe ban in years here in Cambridge.
283

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 15:50:18
293 Border Scot,21/06/2008 15:20:16

The Oil Companies 'Do Not Own The Oil' they own a license to extract minerals i.e. oil and gas etc from the Scottish continental shelf, in return for this 'license' they are, subject to to quotas and regulations, allowed to extract, transport, process and sell on the product from these extractions, which are subject to a 'royalty' being levied upon them, not at an agreed rate, but an 'imposed one'.
284

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:50:45
I could go on but i hope you can glean a little of how important Oil is in our locality

There is life outside of London
285

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 15:51:44
340 Fairfax,21/06/2008 15:50:12

That's not what my family in Lincolnshire tell me.
286

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:52:07
335 Fairfax.

I don't hate the English. I hate the Politics that England is engulfed in.

If the darn polititions actually made the effort to create and equal Union then we would not be voting for Independence.
287

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:55:00
#335 - For Scotland's sake I hope you are wrong. England will remain hugely important to an independent Scotland for decades to come. Even when we export to other countries, we generally have to send our goods through England. We will need high speed raillinls to Europe - these will have to go through England; just like our road links to Europe. We will need English tourists to come up here, just as we will need English investors to contonue to buy financial services from Scotland. And that's before you factor in things such as our agricultural produce. There are is a worrying number of blinkered nats out there who do not see the damage poor relations with England would do us.
288

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/06/2008 15:55:21
The madness of the unionist position is that they suggest that if Scotland has a poorly performing economy that that is a good argument for union.

Unbelievable. I mean: "As the Centre for Public Policy for Regions warns, this is not a secure basis for an independent economy and if the SNP is to fulfil its dream then it needs to decide what it will do with the underlying spending deficit of more than £10 billion."

If this defecit exists it's because of the damaging effects of union, no?

The arrogance, ignorance and stupidity of the unionist establishment is staggering.
289

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:56:51
If England is so self sufficient, why do they deny the people of Scotland the right to self determination by having a referendum on independemce?

You have nothing to lose and much to gain if your argument has any substance

2010 draws near, soon the people will decide
290

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:57:28
#341 - They hold the right to drill under licence. The oil that is drilled is owned by the companies. There's no getting round that I am afraid.

But you raise an interesting point. What happens to those licences when Scotland becomes independent? They were granted by the UK government.
291

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 15:57:52
347 Border Scot.

I have not suggested we would have poor relations with England.

but our interests are different and we will not have a freindship with England in certain areas.

Together we can tell the EU to F##k Off and leave us alone. Then we will be best of friends again.

;-)
292

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/06/2008 15:58:16
Border Scot,

"There are is a worrying number of blinkered nats out there who do not see the damage poor relations with England would do us."

Name them fool! Oh and haven't you noticed that relations are poor under union? So, come on - who are these nats you are talking about? Or are they fictional?
293

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 15:58:51
# 347

Ever heard of the Global Economy?

England is a small part of it..
294

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 15:58:52
ThomasP (345): "I don't hate the English. I hate the Politics that England is engulfed in."

I'm not sure it's really possible to make that distinction, but thanks for the sentiment.

"If the darn polititions actually made the effort to create and equal Union"

It depends on the definition of equality. If you mean a Union in which England and Scotland would be equal partners, then that would imply one in which every Scots vote was worth some 10 English votes.

"then we would not be voting for Independence."

Sadly Scotland has not yet voted for independence, but I too hope that will change.
295

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 15:59:56
#349 - The English do not deny the people of Scotland the right to self determination. You are making things up, you poor wee victim.
296

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:00:01
349 Daveunderwater.

England's Leaders want Scotland because we add to their wealth.

They don't need us but it looks good if your country is slightly bigger taking in several billions more.

350 Border Scot.

Yes. The Oil Companies do own the Oil. But Scoltnad makes the rules and can enforce other issues upon these companies.

It just takes one law for anything to happen.
297

,

21/06/2008 16:01:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
298

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/06/2008 16:01:15
Border Scot,
Is a propagandist. He doesn't believe what he writes, he just does it to cause damage.

Who cares who 'owns' the oil. The government gets to set the tax rates. Government makes more than the companies - so who owns it is irrelevant. The money that is going to London is REAL.
299

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:01:51
#351 - Not really. England would remain a G8 economy post-independence. And we would need to ensure that English consumers continued to buy Scottish goods or we would be in deep trouble.
300

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:02:25
#356 - Who are England's leaders?
301

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 16:04:13
Are all unionists unblinkered?

Are all "nats" blinkered

You can fool some of the people some of the time

But in the end the individual will make his or her personal choice, this is called democracy

When all strings are pulled from Westminster and Scotland dances to London's tune this was dictatorial

The Scottish National Party have cut some of the stings
the puppet is no longer dancing...
302

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:04:25
#356 - How would Scotland enforce the rules?

#358 - Actually, most of the North Sea oil tax money is collected in London through corporation tax.
303

Fairfax,

21/06/2008 16:04:35
Daveunderwater (353): "Ever heard of the Global Economy?

England is a small part of it.."

That's correct, but the definition of "small" here is vital. England qualifies for the G8 on its own, whilst the South-East of England has the highest GDP per capita of the EU nations.
304

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/06/2008 16:05:55
Fairfax,
"Sadly Scotland has not yet voted for independence, but I too hope that will change."
Come on, the people who sold Scotland out in the first place realised what a monumental blunder they made and tried to reverse it. They were told they couldn't get out of it - which was/is against our constitutional law.

In the end - no-one in Scotland wanted union at the time it happened. Over the centuries the trough meant that many of our people's minds have been diseases on the subject.

Go to the housing schemes in Glasgow and ask where their birthright of oil was spent..

Absolutely shocking. The clock is ticking to 2010 and the people of Scotland are behind the SNP.

Unionists, the SNP are coming to get you.
305

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:06:02
359 Border Scot.

"And we would need to ensure that English consumers continued to buy Scottish goods."

It is actually up to the Companies to ensure they reach out to English consumers.

Englands Leaders are the head of the British Parliament. After Independence it is the Scottish Gov that will control Scotland you see, no one else.
306

Boggle fey the Bog,

21/06/2008 16:06:08
343 Richard1,21/06/2008 15:50:58

If you could actually write your native tongue coherently and correctly I would point out the error in your communication, however with your completely garbled and nonsensical contribution, I find it impossible to answer any point that you may have been trying to make. However I will refer you to my previous post, #330 which is not a 'spin' I will leave the spinning to those who are particularly circuitous by nature,such as yourself!

For those Onionistas who are spinning out of control over McRone, and trying to suggest he was wrong, I point you to Lady Thatcher, who used the revenue from the North Sea Oil and Gas to finance her tax cuts for her cronnies at the expense of Scotland, even at $10 a barrel the revenues were suffiecient to keep the IMF at bay and allow Thatcher the Snatcher to decimate the UK, she effectively started the process that we are witnessing to day..

The inevitable will happen Scotland, one of the oldest countries on the European shelf, with probably the oldest National flag in the world, Shall retake her rightful place in the family of Independent nations.

Anyway I gotta go now time to visit the broon bottle shoap ;-) BFN

307

danbob,

21/06/2008 16:07:17
344# The worst water drought that has effected England was infact in parts of the Yorkshire region in 1995 not the South East or London. It got very little attention in London and the government of the time sat and did nothing to their eternal shame. Water tankers had to ship in water to top up the reservoirs around Halifax. The town was just days from a total water shut down. Yorkshire water learned from this and installed a pipe line from Kielder to serve the reservoirs of the area, and now the Yorkshire area is one of the best performing areas in terms of water retention. London has yet to learn this lesson but the day will come when it will. It is just a logistics issue and not an actual water shortage. The time will come when they will wake up. But they will never ever rely on water from Scotland.
308

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 16:07:34
Recent discovery West of Shetland conservative estimates 8 trillion cubic feet of gas and oil

ABERDEEN, UK -- Chevron and its partners are investing $327 million to appraise the Rosebank oil discovery west of Shetland.

According to Rick Cohagan, Chevron Upstream Europe president, speaking in the company's in-house magazine Insight - the recently drilled second well encountered over 80 ft (24 m) of vertical oil pay in sands at a depth of around 9,000 ft (2,743 m). However, volcanic elements in those sands are making it difficult to extract an accurate seismic image.

Chevron's global exploration strategy includes strengthening its portfolio in northern European regions, from the Barents Sea west to Greenland. The company is part of a consortium led by DONG Energy which has applied for block 4, covering 12,000 sq km (4,633 sq mi) offshore Greenland's west coast in the Baffin Sea.
309

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/06/2008 16:07:35
"Border Scot,21/06/2008 16:01:51
#351 - Not really. England would remain a G8 economy post-independence. And we would need to ensure that English consumers continued to buy Scottish goods or we would be in deep trouble."

Wrong, they would drop out. There would be no UN permanent veto on the security council either. It would just be England and that's probably the best thing for it.
310

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:07:43
363 Border Scot.

"How would Scotland enforce the rules?"

Quite a stupid question.

How do we enforce rules now?
311

Gammaracanthuskytodermogammarus,

21/06/2008 16:09:36
Traquir you should write a book.

You could call it;

"See Tinyurl.com".

You really are a bore.
312

Daveunderwater,

21/06/2008 16:11:03
DONG Energy is coordinating the West of Shetland Task Force, a joint UK Government and industry body focused on identifying technically and economically viable projects that could act as a West of Shetland gas infrastructure hub.

The Task Force was set up in November 2006 and is part of the UK Energy Review. It comprises five companies with discoveries in the region most likely to see development in the short to medium term. These companies are BP, Chevron, DONG Energy, ExxonMobil and Total.

Technical and economic analysis looked at the options for developing a gathering hub together with the associated gas pipeline, which would allow gas to be brought to shore. Four, generic hub scenarios have been identified and these form the basis for further technical and economic evaluation in 2008 :

* Onshore Hub at Sullom Voe
* Offshore Shallow Water Hub
* Offshore Deepwater Hub at Laggan
* Alternative Deepwater Hub at Rosebank-Lochnagar

Development West of Shetland has been constrained by the shortage of transportation infrastructure to deliver gas into the market. Several alternative gas transportation routes are being considered as part of the Task Force analysis, as well as the option to use existing infrastructure. The final outcome will depend largely on the nature and location of the hub, but the two main options - a pipeline from an onshore hub at Sullom Voe and a pipeline direct from an offshore hub - will deliver gas into the market at St Fergus.
313

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:13:59
374 Richard1.

"Assuming this only happen's because it helps Scotland within the UK,this cost's England,we could get the same good's cheaper in E.Europe for instance."

It all depends.

Can you tell me what goods are sent to England? Does the % include the oil we send? Does this figure include our growing exports to Russia because of our tartan?


314

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:18:36
#366 - I see, so England's leaders are, in fact, Scots. And they want Scotland to remain a part of the UK so that Scotland can add to England's wealth. That makes sense.
315

,

21/06/2008 16:19:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
316

No 42 days,

21/06/2008 16:20:20
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2008/210608Common.htm
317

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 21/06/2008 16:20:29
Richard,
"there is no puppet,there are cold hard fact's,Scotland export's over 90% of all good's to England."

The cold hard fact is that we are in a single European market. That 90% doesn't change. I suspect that thing would improve dramtically when we are in the Euro.

"There a hidden benefit's also,UK is the largest place for inward investment,and Scotland get's more than it's population size in terms of percentage invested in each constituate county of the UK."

Eh, Scotland gets nothing like the inward investment Ireland gets.

Are your facts cold and hard or just selective?
318

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:21:00
#370 - Just because you want it to be true does not make it true. England would be a G8 economy. Sorry.
319

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:21:00
376 Richard1.

Britain actually makes almost enough oil for herself.

It imports some but not much.
320

,

21/06/2008 16:21:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
321

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:22:04
376 Richard1.

Considering Scotland generates 10x mor eoil then we consume I can safetly say our oil does spread throughout England quite nice.
322

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:23:23
382 Border Scot

Prove England would be a G8 country and would still have its security council seat.
323

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:23:44
#383 - Here's a funny thing. France has no oil reserves, but petrol is cheaper there than it is here. England does not need Scotland's oil to power its cars and factories. The oil market is global.
324

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 16:25:51
#386 - I have no interest in whether England retains a security council seat, though based on the USSR/Russia precedent I suspect that it will.

England would remain a G8 country because it would still have one of the eight biggest economies in the world.
325

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:27:25
Border Scot.

Ah.

England will invade China and Americans oil supplies then?

You will set up your own companies there and compete with them?

They'll eat you alive.

Oil sells itself. Scotland does not need England to buy our oil.
326

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:29:00
388 Border Scot.

I asked to prove it.

Show a link with your evidence with someone important saying...Yeah England will still be apart of the G8 with or without Scotland...
327

danbob,

21/06/2008 16:31:10
Richard1 376# Agree with you but most of the coal that fires the Yorkshire power stations is from the scottish Ayrshire pits. A plan is being put together to import coal from South America and Poland, into Barrow which has a deep water harbour. This will reduce to need for scottish coal. It's this reality that a lot of posters dont get on here. It's called trading, and a country that thinks it can use it's resorces to blackmail it's neighbours can be very easily brought to ruin.
328

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:31:11
391 Richard1.

Haha.

Scaremongering.

329

ThomasP,

21/06/2008 16:33:03
392 danbob.

What about Russia and Ukriane?

Russia is squeezing what it can because Ukraine relies on Russia.
330

Calvinist,

21/06/2008 16:35:32
#169 &180

Why stop at whisky? We could revive a noble Scots tradition and sell opium to the Chinese. That would really give our economy the boost it needs.
331

danbob,

21/06/2008 16:40:53
394# Exactly. England will never rely on Scottish oil. Oil is sold on the open market. If a scottish government tried to play hard ball England would buy elsewhere. This idea that Scotland can hold England to ransom over oil is childish. A bigger issue would be gas from english fields that Scotland relies on. Now that is what Russia is doing to the Ukraine. Like I say any country can be brought to ruin.
332

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 16:46:19
397 - gosh, if only gas was a sold on the open market
...

why all this childish posturing? The people of England would have no animus against Scotland if we chose democratically to leave the Union, and vice versa.
333

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 16:46:35
.
334

danbob,

21/06/2008 16:49:53
Yes Ayrshire 399# gas is sold on the open market but unlike oil it has to be piped. Therefore a country is able to hold another to ransom over price much more effectivly.
335

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 16:52:53
410. WHy would England want to hold Scotland to ransom?
336

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 16:53:28
403 for 401 of course

402 - Meths, hoos poos, is freezing here :-)
337

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 16:54:00
401. Is oil not piped, DanBob?
338

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 16:56:41
309 Border Scot,

"#301 - And then two years after the McCrone Report was written the price of oil collapsed. So McCrone was wrong. The report should not have been suppressed though."

Nope you are Wrong historical Oil Prices show
substantial prices through out the 70's in fact
much higher than when McCrone wrote his 1974 report.

So the only thing that McCrone was wrong in was
seriously underestimating the wealth that
Westminster decided to hide from Scotland. To give
McCrone credit though he himself recognized that
he was likely underestimating it.

He stated in 1974 :
"Already it is beginning to look as if these estimates may be too conservative. Recent finds and the plans of companies appear to indicate that the Shetland
basin may prove very productive indeed."
see - tinyurl.com/3sdrdg

The big oil collapse was in the mid 80's, but even
an 83% share of a lower oil price would have been
hugely significant to Scotland instead the
Thatcher Government was imposed on Scotland
against the overwhelming will of the Scottish
people.

I do agree with you that the "McCrone report
should not have been suppressed". Not only did
the British Government believe the impact would
have been substantial, but they thought likely
this was conservative and Scotland would do
even better. To suppress this information
for over 30 years (through successive
Labour and Conservative governments) is nothing
short of treason against the Scottish nation.
The British have lost our trust and they will
never merit getting it back again.

Year Price Price(Inflation Adjusted)
1974 $9.35 $40.67
1975 $12.21 $48.71
1976 $13.10 $49.46
1977 $14.40 $51.02
1978 $14.95 $49.27
1979 $25.10 $73.60
1980 $37.42 $97.68
1981 $35.75 $84.58
1982 $31.83 $70.91
1983 $29.08 $62.74
1984 $28.75 $59.47
1985 $26.92 $53.76
1986 $14.44 $28.29
1987 $17.75 $33.56
1988 $14.87 $27.05
1989 $18.33 $31.75
1990 $23.19 $38.02
1991 $20.2
339

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 16:57:41
cont.
cont.

Year Price Price(Inflation Adjusted)
1974 $9.35 $40.67
1975 $12.21 $48.71
1976 $13.10 $49.46
1977 $14.40 $51.02
1978 $14.95 $49.27
1979 $25.10 $73.60
1980 $37.42 $97.68
1981 $35.75 $84.58
1982 $31.83 $70.91
1983 $29.08 $62.74
1984 $28.75 $59.47
1985 $26.92 $53.76
1986 $14.44 $28.29
1987 $17.75 $33.56
1988 $14.87 $27.05
1989 $18.33 $31.75
1990 $23.19 $38.02
1991 $20.20 $31.86
1992 $19.25 $29.47
1993 $16.75 $24.92
1994 $15.66 $22.69
1995 $16.75 $23.62
1996 $20.46 $28.01
1997 $18.64 $24.95
1998 $11.91 $15.70
1999 $16.56 $21.30
2000 $27.39 $34.16
2001 $23.00 $27.92
2002 $22.81 $27.22
2003 $27.69 $32.34
2004 $37.66 $42.80
2005 $50.04 $54.99
2006 $58.30 $62.11
2007 $64.20 $66.40

see - tinyurl.com/3y32ux
340

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 17:02:24
Why is Swinney extolling the GERS report this year, when he said that it was unionist lies last year? Because the figures sit his agenda this year? Strikes of slime. He is not to be trusted.
341

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 17:03:17
388 Border Scot,

"#386 - I have no interest in whether England retains a security council seat"

Well you may not be interested but the British powers
that be are certainly interested and will do
anything and everything to ensure they retain
their prestige and status. In the Calman Commission
one of the chief advisers is Iain McLean
who wrote a interesting paper stating just that:

"If the Scottish Nationalists (SNP) came to power,
they would negotiate secession, which would
endanger some projects dear to Unionists of all
parties – such as the UK’s seats in the UN
Security Council (worrying to Conservative
Unionists)"

see - tinyurl.com/57ju4b

This supposed "independent" adviser also wrote :

"Axe Barnett formula – it's unfair to English"

"The process which decides the level of cash Scotland gets from the Treasury is perverse"

"Barnett is unsustainable in the long-run. It is neither efficient nor equitable"

A reason given for Scotland's "extra" funding is
"Scotland pose credible threats to the Union of the United Kingdom."

see - tinyurl.com/46yu3w & tinyurl.com/3gmb7h

As we have been warned already the British state
will do anything and everything to prevent
Scotland becoming a free and independent nation.

Saor Alba
342

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 17:06:36
#399

thats all Jungian to me
343

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:07:03
408. Thank for a dribbling and utterly pointless contribution, again.
344

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 17:07:10
#406 - So in the peak years of oil extraction from the North Sea, the oil price was at its lowest. I certainly agree that Maggie Thatcher wasted the oil money and that it could have been put to much better use. But I am afraid that the information you have provided does show that Scotland was a net contributor to the UK economy before oil prices rose dramatically a couple of years back.
345

danbob,

21/06/2008 17:07:18
Afternoon Ayrshire scot# You know what I am driving at. It's more of a go at some of the less informed who think that Scotland will somehow hold England to ransom. Trying to point out that it can work both ways. Anyway why would England want to hold Scotland to ransom indeed. But why do some people on here advocate Scotland doing this.
346

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 17:07:19
#410 Traquir

The UK's seat on the UN security council is based on the UK having atom bombs, not Scotland's political status. Anyway - who cares?
347

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 17:08:24
#410 - We have already established that England's leaders are, in fact, Scots.
348

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 17:10:13
Here is another little oil snippet which
the Scottish papers "accidentally" forgot
to pick up.

From the UK’s leading online resource for the engineering industry - The Engineer Online we have

"In a lava over oil prediction system"
see - tinyurl.com/5k6v4z

Sample quotes are :

"Researchers at Aberdeen University are developing a software modelling system that could unearth major potential new oil fields hidden under ancient lava on the sea bed off the Shetland Isles"

"‘The area is as big as the north and central North Sea but there are only six wells there at the moment."

"We currently know as much about this particular area of the subsea as we did about the North Sea in the mid 1970's"

Basically with technology and price increases making
exploration more viable there are large potential
finds still to be found and extracted from
the North Sea, even beyond the 60 billion
50-100 years of oil reported outside of the
Scottish media.

"North Sea oil 'will last for another half century'"
see - tinyurl.com/6ml3np and in fact
"'North Sea oil will last for 100 years'"
see tinyurl.com/54wl8e

Saor Alba

349

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:11:07
416. Every year Scotland fails to match UK GDP? Sounds like the Union is an economic disaster for Scotland
350

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:11:56
417. Perhaps we will establish some relevance to this pots?
351

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 17:13:32
#390, England is responsible for 85% of the UK's GDP. The UK's GDP is currenty around $2.7 trillion, which makes the UK the fifth largest economy in the world. 85% of $2.7 trillion is $2.295 trillion. On the most up to date figures, therefore, that makes England's GDP the sixth largest in the world and England's economy the sixth largest in the world.
352

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:13:52
Just realised that these accounts completely discredit that nat bible, 'The Great Deception' (oh, the irony) which declared a SURPLUS a few years back, stating that GERS was rigged/a lie.

These SG accounts, signed off by Salmond and Swinney, proves that that amateur piece of work is completely WRONG.

'The Great Deception' is a work of nonsense and it was shown to be BY THE SNP.

Loving it.
353

Nikostratos,

21/06/2008 17:14:03
"The Calman Commission on the future of Scottish home rule fears public meetings and its internet site are vulnerable to "hijack" by Nationalists "

"The sub-committee considering ways in which the Commission on Scottish Devolution can engage with the public and gain feedback has recommended it should not hold "town hall" meetings across Scotland and open to the general public, at least while gathering information."

"Such meetings would be difficult to manage and open to hijack',

"Commission members are also concerned about inviting contributions on the website, saying that "carried considerable risks if not approached with caution"

Anyway what have all you Nat bully boys got to say for yourselves eh?


http://www.theherald.co.uk/search/display.var.2353737.0.warning_over_hijacking_of_constitution_meetings.php
354

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 17:15:12
#420 - Well, if you read the post I was responding to you might.
355

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 17:15:45
415 The Tin Man,

"#410 Traquir

The UK's seat on the UN security council is based on the UK having atom bombs, not Scotland's political status. Anyway - who cares?"

Apparently the British care, Scotland certainly
does n't. Yep and you are correct the
atom bombs based in Scotland are likely
one of the factors keeping the British
at the level of status they desire. No doubt
the additional £76bn they want to invest
in further WMD and their continued support
of Bush in illegal wars will allow them
to keep their seat.

. "New Trident system may cost £76bn"
see - tinyurl.com/3kub7t

Scotland can't afford to keep subsidizing the decaying
ex-empire that it is Britain in the manner
to which it has become accustomed.
356

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:15:46
423. You are confusing 'bully' with 'tedious nuisance'.
357

The Tin Man,

21/06/2008 17:16:15
#422 Highland

Indeed. If GERS was unionist lies last year, but the shining truth this year, then someone is lying.
358

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:17:13
425. And here we STILL have a nat thinkiong that Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK!

Astonishing!

Traquir, have you actually read this article??
359

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 17:18:04
416 Richard1,

"DELUSIONS OF GRANDURE" - was there ever a more
apt description of the has-been ex-empire that
is Britain. Thanks for that one.

Slàinte mhor
360

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:19:28
428. Yes, the SNP and the nats have been lying all this time.

Ok, so we knew it all along but they have still been telling little porkies!
361

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:21:15
425. The UK's Security Council seat is based on the fact that it was one of the winning powers of WW2 and also one of the UN's founding members.
362

Border Scot,

21/06/2008 17:22:18
#429 - It's all part of the nationalist narrative: poor, wee, oppressed Scotland subsidising the profligate English. The hope is that if they say it long enough and loud enough they will get the Yes they need in a referendum. Of course, when the reality emerges post-independence, it won't matter - there can be no turning back.
363

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:22:40
422. Sadly Highland, had you done a bit of reading, you would see these GERs figures have been revised - 3500 inaccuracies in old GERS have been challenged to produce these - from the Herald 2previous GERS over-estimated spending in Scotland and underestimated revenue" - as usual Highland shoots himself in the foot
364

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:22:59
432. Interesting reading!

"A new report from Barclays Bank has suggested that the UK economy will become Europe's biggest within a generation. It is growing at such a fast rate that the UK will regain the top spot from Germany within 20 years. It would be the first time since 1959 that the UK had held the number one position. Britain overtook France in 2000 to become the second biggest European economy and is currently the fourth largest in the world.

“The assumptions relating to the UK are deliberately cautious, yet even so the British economy slowly closes the gap with Germany until, early in the 2020s, it becomes bigger, and thereafter, the gap continues to widen,” said Christopher Smallwood, author of the report.

Germany's economy is bigger than Britain's because its population is a third larger, the report said. But it argued that the gap will narrow as Germany's working age population shrinks by 20 per cent over the next 25 years from 56 million to 44 million. At the same time, the UK’s working-age population will rise slightly. The report suggested that the UK economy will grow at between 2.5 per cent and 1.25 per cent a year over the next 20 years. That compares with 1.5 per cent and 0.5 per cent in Germany."

365

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:24:14
434 - behold the Unionist narrative that says Scots are unique in the world in being too stupid, too poor and too small to run their own country. Unionists will repeat this ad naseum to ensure the UK remains intact
366

Traquir , Alba,

21/06/2008 17:24:17
417 Border Scot
"#410 - We have already established that England's leaders are, in fact, Scots."

More correctly a bunch of Quisling Scots elected
by the vast majority of England.
I use the word Quisling very advisably
""Quisling" is synonymous with "traitor", and particularly applied to politicians who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own."

In the case of Brown and Darling they both signed
the solemn oath of the 1989 Claim of Rights
that Scotland's interest are "paramount" yet
have proceeded to renege on that oath
to an embarrassing degree.

"We, gathered as the Scottish Constitutional Convention, do hereby acknowledge the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of Government best suited to their needs, and do hereby declare and pledge that in all our actions and deliberations their interests shall be paramount."
see - tinyurl.com/5hv4vk

367

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:25:25
435. Is that your response?!

The SNP's long-awaited version of GERS has shown a multi-billion DEFICIT, totally the opposite of endless nat claims that Scotland has been running a large surplus for years.

You can squirm and try to spin as much as you want, your principal claim that Scotland subsidises the UK has been totally destroyed by your own party.

Get that right up yer!
368

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:26:38
433. Post Scottish independence, the UK will not exist - will its seat be based on non-existence?
369

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:27:01
438. And out comes the same old tedious tosh of "unionists consider Scots too poor and stupid".

Why do nats persist in knocking us, insulting us and belittling us?

For shame.
370

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:30:16
441. No, challenged one. The seat will go to the 'successor state' which will be the rest of Britain. Do you seriously think Scotland, one of the world's smallest countries, will get a permanent seat on the UN Security Council?! Are you really that stupid?

Not that this will ever happen as Salmond Himself has just shown there is no economic case for independence just as there is no "serious", "growing", "overwhelming" or even "massive support" for independence.

Your turn.
371

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:31:10
440. It shows a current account surplus, and a position far stronger than the current UK massive deficit.... indeed, at today's oil prices it shows a multi-billion surplus on all measures..... how sad however that Unionists want to Scotland to do badly economically to justify their arguments....insightful, but pathetic
372

 Ayrshire Scot™,

21/06/2008 17:32:25
443. I don't care about a seat on the UN security council, I think investing in growth and infrastructure would be Scotland's priority, leaving delusional world posturing to Brit Nats like your self.
373

Highland Mighty,

21/06/2008 17:33:01
The nat's prediction of the make-up of the UN Security Council.

USA - pop: 250m
Russia - pop: 250m
China - pop: 1bn
France - pop: 60m



Scotland - pop:5m

'Deluded', 'psychotic' or even 'insane' really does not accurately describe their condition.