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Referendum? Bring it on, says Ashdown

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Published Date: 16 February 2009
THE Unionist parties in Scotland should back a referendum on independence to finish off the SNP as a political force once and for all, former Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown has claimed.
Lord Ashdown told The Scotsman that he believes his own party has got its tactics wrong in Scotland in dealing with the Nationalists. And he said that Wendy Alexander was on the right lines when she challenged First Minister Alex Salmond to "bring it on" and hold a referendum on independence.

Lord Ashdown spoke ahead of the Scottish Legal Awards next month, which he will be presenting. The former Liberal Democrat leader still believes that devolution has "killed off" attempts to break up the UK, but has argued that his own and other pro-Union parties should be more willing to take on the SNP head to head.

"This is where I do disagree with my colleagues," he said. "I don't want to criticise their tactics following the (Holyrood] election (in 2007], but let's put it like this: I would not have ruled out a referendum and I think it would have been a good time to hold it.

"The fact is that there has never been a majority for independence in Scotland. If a referendum was held, then the SNP would lose and would be finished.

"They are just playing a long game in the hope that they can persuade people to support independence by showing that they can govern competently."

He added: "In that sense, Wendy Alexander was right last year, although the circumstances when she made her argument were quite a mess."

A spokesman for the Scottish Liberal Democrats said: "Paddy Ashdown is entitled to his own views on this matter, but the Scottish party has made its position on this clear.

"At this time, people should not be focusing on an independence referendum, but rather on the recession and supporting the economy and protecting people's jobs."

Lord Ashdown is also due to publish his autobiography in April, where he intends to give his side of the inside story on the negotiations that took place behind the scenes in Westminster to push devolution through.

In it, he has claimed he stayed on as leader of the Liberal Democrats until 1999 to make sure Tony Blair saw through devolution.

"It seemed clear to me that Tony Blair was not committed to the devolution project," he said. "It is true to say that he felt some debt to the memory of John Smith (the former Labour leader] who, of course, was very committed to devolution. But I felt that Tony Blair's heart was never in it… In fact, I suspect he saw it as an irritant."

The full article contains 455 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Forward not Back,

16/02/2009 00:07:23
Ashdown is right but the problem is that the unionist parties in Scotland are scared to actually make a positive case for the union. Instead, they leave the SNP with a clear playing field on the constitution as they fear they will be portrayed as "anti-Scottish".
2

famous 15,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 00:08:45
The Lib/Dems really have their "pants down". Scotland will make its own mind up. If that means INDEPENDENCE,I for one will cheer.
3

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 16/02/2009 00:09:58
Ok Forward not Back. Make a positive case for the Union.
4

karin.m,

16/02/2009 00:11:21
Scottish Liberal Democrats ha ha ha

paddy ashdown speaks about the unionists parties then the lib dems talk about being a seperate party.

so in essence what they are saying is yeah we will pretend we have a seperate party for scotland but you cant be a seperate country.

everyone knows that the unionists parties are ran from london the only one that isnt is the snp.
5

Resolutions,

16/02/2009 00:20:17
Aye bring it on!

Surely it is time to show the Unionists that Scotland is somewhat tired of being lied to, being belittled and patronised.
Bring it on!
6

The Strategist,

16/02/2009 00:22:35
#1 The recession, the credit crunch and the collapse of the banks have proven very clearly that the Union has failed.
7

Forward not Back,

16/02/2009 00:24:08
#3 - I'm not going to. Unlike others on here I'm not obsessed with the union. I'm commenting on the political parties stances.

My only point would be a little more honesty. For the SNP supporters to pretend that financial nirvana lies in independence is as fundamentally disingenuous as the likes of Rufus claiming that Scotland would be a third world country.
8

subrosa,

16/02/2009 00:29:15
Bit late in the day Paddy to be giving your opinion. May just have been better if you'd stuck to promoting your new book.
9

Forward not Back,

16/02/2009 00:30:40
#7 - No, all it proves that the system of regulation and governance has failed. What is a gift to the SNP, of course, is that they can argue the Scottish banks would never have collapsed because they would have had tighter regulations but the likelihood is that the corporate headquarters would have departed Edinburgh for London in that scenario.
10

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16/02/2009 00:33:25
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16/02/2009 00:38:18
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12

Unelectedbythepeople,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 00:44:45
When the man in charge of the nation's finances, Alistair Darling, has been caught fiddling his expenses, and Jacqui Smith, the woman who is in charge of crime prevention is accused of corruption, you have a government which is a kleptocracy.

The New Labour promise to be "whiter than white" is like a sick joke now.

Lord Moonie's money grubbing ways are a disgrace to the House of Lords, he also aided and abetted another expenses fiddle by facilitating Alistair Darling lodging with him and claiming expenses based on Moonie's flat being Darling's "main home", in just the same way that Jacqui claims her sister's house is her "main home".

Already under investigation for Cash for Amendments, Lord Moonie is mired in fresh sleaze after his business associates were arrested in a police probe into alleged fraud in the NHS.

The Sunday Herald has the scoop:
Richard Nawrot and George Henderson, who run Fife-based Americium Developments, were arrested in London last month on "suspicion of conspiracy to commit fraud and misconduct in a public office".

Americium currently pays Moonie, a close ally of Gordon Brown, up to £40,000 a year in consultancy fees. The peer's relationship with the company dates back to October 2006.

Two of Americium's US clients have told the Sunday Herald they had lunch with Moonie and Nawrot at Westminster and that the peer later gave a tour of the parliament.

One client said he discussed a potential NHS contract with Moonie at the lunch.

Moonie was close to Gordon and at the heart of the Scottish Raj. He knows where the bodies are buried. This could potentially get very messy for Brown.
13

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 01:20:28
#14, Cynicus.

I believe that your assessment of the situation is wrong.

1. The SNP Manifesto gave 2010/11 as the date for a Referendum. Accepting Ms Alexander's offer, which I believe was well thought through and devious, would have lead to a defeat on the Referendum Bill and a vote of No Confidence which would have led to another NuLab/LD coalition.

The "Bring it on!!!" ploy was a Trojan Horse which, very astutely, was rejected and turned upon NuLab, which will, now, be seen to be even less principled if they vote against the Bill when it is presented.

Further, with NuLab in a corner, the real Tories and the Lib Dems will be portayed as Westminster-run poddles, who care nothing for the will of the people of Scotland, which would leave them even more vulnerable than they are now going into a GE.

All in all, and more so now given the current situation, very astute politics by the SNP.
14

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

16/02/2009 01:21:31
The SNP may lose a referendum, but the idea that they would somehow be 'finished' as a result is ludicrous. The same has been said by it's opponents many times in the past, yet they are stronger now than ever.
Are people going to stop supporting independence just because of a no vote? Of course not.
15

Harry Shanks,

Rutherglen 16/02/2009 01:34:24
#14

Your ANALysis is almost totally devoid of any intellectual merit whatsoever.

The fundemental matter you completely overlook is that winning a referendum is achieved only by virtue of more people casting their votes in favour of the proposition than those cast against - it is not dependent on the state of the Labour Party.

The alleged disarray of the Labour Party which you predict would have occurred had AS "picked up the gauntlet" may or may not have occurred and even if it had, what guarantee is there that this would have influenced the outcome of any referendum?

It's also entirely possible that had AS accepted the challenge, Brown would immediately have sacked Wendy, installed a more compliant puppet and urged the party to rally round in the interests of saving the UK.

A referendum could not have been organised overnight and the Labour Party would have had at least a year to re-group, with a new found unity of purpose.

As far as AS is concerned, he has even now got us further along the road to Independence than anybody else in the last 250 years which I would suggest is not bad for a "4th division player". In comparison to AS, Twitcher Gray, Goldie and Scott would not even get taken on as ball boys.

16

Sanny,

16/02/2009 01:35:14
Having read the article I can only conclude that Paddy’s been out of the mainstream of politics too long. He is right when he says that it WAS the stated intention of the SNP to demonstrate to the Scottish electorate that, despite the claims of the unionist propaganda, the can form a credible government. Now, despite being a minority government, they have clearly shown the way it should be, whilst demonstrating what a shambles the previous Lib/Lab administration was.

The success of the SNP government against the odds, when faced with a rabid unionist majority, has not been lost on the Electorate and the strength of the nationalist movement grows by the day. This move towards Independence will be greatly strengthened by the release of the papers published in yesterday Sunday Times [but not in any Scottish newspaper] wherein the deliberate rape of Scotland’s resources, as planned by Westminster and Whitehall, lies exposed.

The greed, sleaze, corruption and incompetence of the current government too is being exposed on a daily basis. This is the government that came in on the cry of they would be ‘whiter than white’ unlike the previous corrupt Tory government. The Scottish electorate is waking up to how their trust has and is being abused and they are becoming rapidly disenchanted with the Old Guard.

Salmond has been clever in insisting that he would not call for a referendum until late in this first SNP administration by which time, in addition to the above, the economic turmoil will have reached gale force and the unemployment figures will have risen to unacceptable levels. The Westminster GE will have seen the rout of the Labour Party and as the Tory’s are still a bad smell in Scotland it is very likely that the SNP will hold the majority of Scottish seats in Westminster. With the Holyrood elections due shortly after the GE, I expect there will be a decimation of both Labour and Liberal seats and despite the Holyrood Electoral system being biased to pre
17

Sanny,

16/02/2009 01:44:53
Continued: -
Salmond has been clever in insisting that he would not call for a referendum until late in this first SNP administration by which time, in addition to the above, the economic turmoil will have reached gale force and the unemployment figures will have risen to unacceptable levels. The Westminster GE will have seen the rout of the Labour Party and as the Tory’s are still a bad smell in Scotland it is very likely that the SNP will hold the majority of Scottish seats in Westminster. With the Holyrood elections due shortly after the GE, I expect there will be a decimation of both Labour and Liberal seats and despite the Holyrood Electoral system being biased to prevent a single party majority, it is possible that the SNP may succeed in overcoming that bias and forming a majority government in Scotland.

From the unionist point of view Paddy and Wendy were right about calling for a referendum early on in this parliament. With the right wording of the question(s) it is possible [50/50] that the SNP would have failed to get the majority they needed. Too late now! The genie is out of the bottle and you can fit as many new corks as you like that genie is not going to return. All that is left now is Electoral Fraud but after Glenrothes they will be closely watched.

We live in interesting times!!

18

karin.m,

16/02/2009 01:50:17
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/4632804/Gordon-Brown-could-have-saved-HBOS-without-need-for-Lloyds-merger.html
19

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 01:56:31
#22, karin.m

Maybe his intention was to destroy both banks.

A thought worth considering, I think, if you are to believe what Adair-Turner has said about the situation of HBOS!!!
20

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

16/02/2009 02:00:09
I have to laugh at the confidence of Ashdown that a referendum on independence would fail. If there's one thing we've learnt in the last year it's surely that things can change fast. By the time a referendum comes round, the idea of cutting adrift from a failing england and keeping all the oil for ourselves might seem more attractive than ever.
21

Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ,,

16/02/2009 02:03:58
The timing of the referendum is important and it obviously has the Unionists very worried.
22

Castaway™ ,

16/02/2009 02:05:10
#14 Cynicus in Exile: I disagree, why hold a referendum this side of the next UK general election which could result in a possible change in the UK government and the political landscape in Scotland changed plus economic conditions in 2010 will be different compared with say 2008.
If the SNP had held a referendum in 2008 they would have been accused of breaking there manifesto pledge to hold one in 2010.

But that blunder - do you mean Gordon Brown not holding a GE during the Autumn of 2007 ?

Postponing the LIT doesn't allow the LIT issue to drag on and on thus depriving the opposition of ammunition during the UK election now during the upcoming elections the Scottish people can concentrate on membership of the EU and of the UK.

OK abandon the 2010 referendum ? no problem there will be an election for the Scottish Parliament on 5 May 2011 so let the Scottish people decide, this is a democracy not like:-

A repeat of 1979, yes that was democracy (Labour Party style) at its daftest with that silly/stupid 40% rule.

Tick Tock!Tick Tock!Tick Tock! It's Election Time !!!

4 June 2009 EU elections and England local council elections.
6 May 2010 local elections in all London Boroughs, and 134 other English Local Authorities.
3 June 2010 last possible UK general election date and a possible change in the UK government.
30 Nov 2010 possible Scottish referendum.
5 May 2011 Scottish Parliament elections.
23

me-here,

16/02/2009 02:06:21
That's cool Mr Ashdown -
Now you only need to sign in here: http://www.snp.org/campaigns/letscotlanddecide
You can fill in the email addresses of your friends (wendy etc.) and we'll do the rest.
Thanks Mr Ashdown!
24

Brian Hill,

16/02/2009 03:06:21
Well played Commander Ashdown, that's the spirit.

Support for Independence currently standing at 40% that's FORTY per cent......winning post is 50% that's FIFTY per cent...only 10% that's TEN per cent away and the campaign hasn't even started yet!!!

The McCrone Report alone will bridge most of that 10% never mind this other report which effectively says we must CHEAT the Scots out of their vast Oil and Gas reserves.....

....you know, a bit like the uneducated peasants of Nigeria are being cheated out of the vast wealth coming from their Oil and Gas and the way the equally uneducated goat herding Arabs were cheated out of their cash for decades till they got smart and kicked the English and Americans out.

Yes Commander, let's Bring it On and we'll see how long it takes the EDUCATED, POLITICALLY SOPHISTICATED people of Scotland to 'clock onto' the fact that we too have been cheated out of our vast wealth from our Oil and Gas fields.
25

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

16/02/2009 03:47:23
'the two most venerable financial institutions in Scotland were not then reduced to global contempt with the ongoing erosion of Scottish morale.'

Polls have shown that support for independence actually went up in the immediate aftermath of that-albeit within the usual margin of error.
For me personally the loss of the BoS simply underlined how vulnerable Scotland is to the political whims of people down in London, and makes independence all the more imperative.
26

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 04:54:41
Good old Paddy Ashdown, a rare breed of politician who actually did something useful in the real world before hopping on the gravy train.

Who has more credence? An ex-special forces soldier or professional children, sorry politicians, sorry professional pedantic children, um the SNP.
27

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16/02/2009 05:16:34
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16/02/2009 05:16:44
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Ronnie Ray,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 05:25:32
Paddy Who?
30

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16/02/2009 05:29:51
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16/02/2009 05:30:11
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Castaway™ ,

16/02/2009 05:32:21
#28/#30: Cynicus in Exile -
A referendum in 2008 was a "no brainer" to start with because one cannot let the opposition decide when, they will choose the best time that is to there advantage plus the SNP manifesto pledge was for 2010. The SNP are in the driving seat as when to present the referendum bill to the SP and not the opposition to decide unless they bring forward there own referendum bill ?

It was Gordon Brown and his blunder not to hold a UK GE in the Autumn of 2007 which allowed the UK GE to be held before the proposed referendum now he has to hold a GE on or before 3 June 2010.

1) Carpe Diem - Why 2008 ? there will be another time to hold the Scottish referendum at the time when the SNP feels it is advantageous for them to hold one.(30 Nov 2010).

2) "Events, Dear Boy" Yes like the UK GE with a possible change in UK government, less Scottish Labour MPs returned to Westminster. economic changes etc
"Events, Dear Boy" suggest that 2008 was "not on" to "bring it on"

P.S. When the referendum bill comes before the SP, it will have at least one opposition supporter in Wendy Alexander unless she was quoted out of context and meant "bring it on" only for the year 2008 and not 2010 which she will have changed to "your not on"
33

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16/02/2009 05:33:05
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Geoff,

sa 16/02/2009 05:36:13
1 Forward not Back-wise words. The Unionist cause will not be helped by constantly attacking Salmond and the SNP. They have articulated a reasoned case for independence whereas Unionist parties,Labour in particular, have largely replied in the negative. Tony Blair in particular always implied that Scotland would never be able to make it on its own which inference, I would imagine would have offended many Scots who might not otherwise have espoused Nationalism.
As to the suggestion that the venerable old Scottish Banks would have fared better under an independent Scotland-I somehow doubt this. The financial meltdown is a truly global phenomenon and Scotland would not have been able to isolate itself not to mention the role of individual Scots bankers in creating this mess.
35

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16/02/2009 05:43:08
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16/02/2009 06:00:55
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16/02/2009 06:01:15
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Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/02/2009 06:10:07
It's something of a career downturn for Paddy to ply a new trade as political hitman for the Unionists. Did the Liberal Party disillusion him with Parliamentary Democracy? "THE Unionist parties in Scotland"?

They're starting to sound like an occupying force.
39

missing home,

la verne 16/02/2009 06:24:36

he's a SIR, do you think for a blind minute he'd jeopardise that? Empty the trough? Granted, he's had a life worthy of praise at several points, but like many, succumb to that public aplomb..forgets where he came from.
40

 sm753,

16/02/2009 06:46:12
45

"We could be assured that we would
more closely monitored our financial institutions
than apparently was done by half a billion
pounds a year London based FSA "

Oh yes, Tracky?

So what about:

“We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in ‘gold-plated' regulation.”

???
41

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16/02/2009 07:23:48
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Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 07:24:15
"I was one of the first soldiers to arrive and if you’d told me we’d be there for 37 years I’d have said that’s ridiculous. Thanks to Slobbo and his murder squads Serbia had forfeited the moral and practical right to govern Kosovo just as Britain had forfeited the right to govern Ireland "

Paddy Ashdown
43

Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 07:32:10
48. Good job that London Labour have not been in charge of banking regulation for past 12 years, or people might think they have something to do with the current mess.

"not just a light touch but a limited touch. The new model of regulation can be applied not just to.... but also to the design and indeed to the decision as to whether to regulate at all. ..."
Gordon Brown, Nov 28 2005
44

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 07:35:23
#49 Traquir

Not even the SNP are claiming that they would have done anything different, so you must be refering to another party?

It is a well known fact that the mental midgets who wiped-out HBOS are probably all unionists, by the way. Maybe that would be a more fruitful line of propoganda. I am sure you have a suitably edited article saved on your computer.
45

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16/02/2009 07:39:53
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46

Ubi,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 07:40:30
Should we really be surprised that the serpents of Whitehall would simply do whatever it might take to promote their interests against Scotland’s?

That is how they created and ran their empire.

They divided, they conquered, they ruled. If that involved a little opium along the way, well where is the harm? Where is the sinister element?

A sweat shop continent? Good for the natives actually. Stop them chewing that filthy stuff all day, drives the Ambassador mad with their bad breath. We’ll teach them cricket! Time we had a change of opposition.

Country against country? Well if India and Pakistan now wish to fight it out over Kashmir that is hardly a matter for Her Majesty’s Government, surely. More tea?

I think we might usefully test Orkney and Shetland against their mainland cousins, Minister. They vote for fringe candidates. We could spectate, if you follow my drift. I understand they can be terribly fierce. I mean, technically speaking, they might as well be Norwegian. Do any of them work at all? Or are our welfare policies working there? I believe they have no trees and funny little horses. Cousin of mine went to Scotland once actually. Aunt owned half of Argyll. Filthy place. All heather and flies. No tube. Never went back. Lives in Swissie now. Better tax. And decent skiing apparently. Risky democracy though. People get a say.

We had our man in Iraq for a goodly while. A Saddam somebody, forget now. All seem the same these chaps with dish towels on their heads. Must be frightfully warm in the summer. Keeps the flies off according to Tufty Thesinger. Stopped them selling their oil to the Russians though. Bloody cheek. Turned out to be a bit of a rum chap in the end. Believe the Americans executive actioned him as they say with their funny ways. Frightful place America, I believe. Our neighbour over the fields went once. Steak for breakfast. Two eggs. Was ours once, of course. Uppity lot. No taxation
47

Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 07:40:47
52. "On September 20 Mervyn King, the Bank of England governor, admitted he would have liked to have helped Northern Rock sooner; but UK regulations had stopped him."

I wonder who designed and implemented these regulations which made the situation worse?
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16/02/2009 07:41:49
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 sm753,

16/02/2009 07:46:05
56

"Yep, quite right I recall the SNP fully backing
Brown that there was no choice for HBOS but
to annihilate them via a forced marriage with Lloyds."

No, they were the idiots whooping and hollering for HBOS to be "saved".

It has now posted a £11bn loss, wiping out Lloyds' £1bn profit.

You ought to be hitting the knees thanking Lloyds for bailing out HBOS and praying it doesn't get dragged under itself.
50

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16/02/2009 07:46:06
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Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 07:47:17
57. "Dr Dalvinder Singh, author of Banking Regulation of UK and US Financial Markets: "At the time of Northern Rock we had people waiting outside banks - and rightly so.

"The process of deposit insurance is far, far quicker in the US- whereas in the UK the legal position is far more unclear. It can take people up to six months to get their money back in the UK, as opposed to just days in the US.

"In the UK we found a lack of information about deposit insurance, to the extent of which even the Banking Code, which the customer is given when opening an account, had very little information about what protection there was, if any."
52

Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 07:48:04
60. "You ought to be hitting the knees "

Seems to be Unionists default position
53

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 07:49:30
#58 Traquir

My computer says that 'tinyurl.com' is a spyware site.
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16/02/2009 07:51:16
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The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 07:55:30
#56 Traquir

HBOS has posted losses similar in magnitude to the US defense budget. If you have got some kind of patriotic solution in mind, please enlighten us.

I see Barclays are doing fine.
56

Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 08:08:45
63. HBOS losses c. $15 Billion

US Defense budget: $516 billion

Not like Unionists to spin and exaggerate though
57

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 08:19:37
I stand corrected Edward, HBOS look on course to post a loss of $15 billion and RBS appear to have lost GBP 28 billion. Sometimes I loose my glasses.
58

Astonished,

Inverclyde 16/02/2009 08:19:37
There is no "patriotic" solution. the solution was in the hands of those who ran the banks and those who should have been regulating the banks.

The labour party were solely responsible for the bank regulation failures.

Barclays appears to have very few labour numpties on its board and thus had little need of regulation.

I would explain further however, as you continue to defend the numpty party, I would be wasting my time.
59

Vivas,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 08:20:48
Lord Foulkes, 2008
Foulkes: "...(the SNP) are 'trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly
better than south of the Border."
Q. "Is that a bad thing?"
Foulkes: "No, but they are doing it deliberately ..."

Lord Ashdown, 2009
"They are just playing a long game in the hope that they can persuade people to support independence by showing that they can govern competently."

Yup, at all costs a government who governs in the interests of Scotland must be stopped from doing so !
60

Gussie Fink-Nottle,

16/02/2009 08:35:51
Ditto Vivas #68

"They are just playing a long game in the hope that they can persuade people to support independence by showing that they can govern competently."

Imagine it a government that want to show they govern competently, compared to one hell bent on allowing its own bosses in London destroy the country.
61

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 08:37:03
#68 Vivas

"Yup, at all costs a government who governs in the interests of Scotland must be stopped from doing so !"

I would say that on a practicle level, the SNP are more concerned about the interests of the SNP, than 'Scotland'.
62

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 08:40:45
#63 Tin Man

“I see Barclays are doing fine”

Only in you don’t happen to be a shareholder.

BARCLAYS PLC ORD 25P

52 Week High 712.50 52 Week High Date 8-AUG-2007
52 Week Low 47.30 52 Week Low Date 21-JAN-2009
63

TWC,

16/02/2009 08:46:45
Libdems always have extreme ideas once they are out of the Party, while they are in positions within their party they stay firmly away from actual commitment to anything.
They have been talking about Federal funding and Fiscal Autonomy for 50 years and they still haven't got a proposal. Useless.
64

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/02/2009 08:47:20
#70 "I would say that on a practicle level, the SNP are more concerned about the interests of the SNP, than 'Scotland'."

Brian Taylor would disagree with you. His BBC blog last week noted:

"Here's another question. Why didn't ministers lessen the political pain for themselves by advancing a Bill to introduce LIT, watch it fail - and then blame their Labour and Tory rivals? Because they had come to the conclusion, for a range of reasons, that LIT wasn't going to run in current circumstances.

It is, arguably, to their credit that they didn't pursue the Machiavellian option outlined above, that they confronted the question and took the hit."

The SNP believe independence is in the best interests of the people of Scotland. I'm sure you accept that they believe that sincerely. Indeed, since their main USP would then be lost, it would likely result in them holding a weaker political position within the independent Scotland.

Despite this, they persist in pursuing that policy in a manner they judge most likely to succeed. A clearer example of putting the nation's interest ahead of the party's would be hard to imagine.
65

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/02/2009 08:49:11
#72 "The SNP's failure to give us a referendum is creating the equivalent to Planning Blight where no one can make any plans until the big decision is made and so decay sets in meantime."

LOL!

So the SNP are for a referendum, the other parties are all against, and it's the *SNP* who have "failed" to bring us one? How do you people even manage to get your trousers on the right way round in the mornings?
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16/02/2009 08:52:31
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The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 08:52:33
#71 bully

'Fine' as in still fuctioning as a bank without being propped-up by massive State intervention. However, I do think the State-santioned merger of HBOS & Lloyds is utter nonsense - just dragging a viable bank down with the plonkers at HBOS, and reducing consumer choice.
68

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 08:56:17
#74 Rev

I don't understand your logic - are you saying that the exec shoud drop the referendum manifesto commitment for the same reason?
69

Corky,

16/02/2009 09:02:20
Alex Salmond said that the refrendum vote is a once in a generation chance. That means the SNP have to create the correct conditions first. While a 'no' vote won't destroy the SNP it will weaken it for some time to come.

The fact is the SNP are learning what every newly elected group finds out - that being in government is a lot more difficult than it seems.

I wish our media and electorate understood that too, and we stopped slagging off ALL our elected representatives. The cynicism we read from journalists and the partisan rubbish posted on this site is noy good for democracy.
70

TWC,

16/02/2009 09:06:40
78 The Tin Man,

No I think he is pointing out that the Unionist parties do not want a referendum but they will attack the Nats for not holding same.

Labour for sure are really scared of the referendum now because the likely outcome from Calman is a "Damp Squib" and the scots are beginning to ask for more power over their money.
The unionists need an early referendum while time is on the Nats side.
We are slipping into the Independence trap because we don't have a creditable alternative.
71

Rob,

16/02/2009 09:09:23
Paddy Ashdown is only reciting the blindingly obvious: the Unionist parties have nothing to fear from a referendum, and never have had. An independent Scotland in this mess would have made Iceland and Ireland look like side shows, and you'd have to be a complete fool to believe Salmond and Co would have managed the risks any different or better. For you SNP types, this is much much better - you can continue to blame everyone else and all the usual suspects like Brown, Godwin, McKillop etc. Whoops, I forgot
72

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 09:11:26
It does not matter one hoot what Ashdown or any other puppet of the Westminster Establishment thinks .
It is up to the Scottish Parliament to decide when , and the question to be posed.
We all know about Westminster democracy , that is why there is an Independence movement in the first place.
so begone with you Paddy and please take some of your sycophant spineless wonders with you back to London HQ
73

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 09:15:39
#79 Corky

Personnally, I think a 'no' vote would actually strengthen the SNP, as more people would regard them as a political party, rather than a Patriotic Front.
74

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 09:17:09
I don’t believe Lord Ashdown will have a vote in the proposed referendum.

So what’s it got to do with him?
75

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 09:19:24
Anyway, as a referendum won't be passed by Holyrood this term, I don't see why people are wasting their breath discussing it. The various party's position on a referendum was perfectly clear at the election.
76

Phil C,

16/02/2009 09:19:47
There's just one wee thing wrong with the Wendy-style 'bring it on' thing that the unionist press keep stirring up. The timetable has already been formed by the Scottish Government. There will be a two option vote (Yes or NO). None of Lab Lib's cannae winnae maybees.

The vote will be in a year or two, when the people are more used to SNP in Holyrood 'government' and ready to 'final answer' the question. Like Dale Winton we will ask the people 'Do you want me to accept yes as your answer?!'

So the onionists can stop their childish Wendyisms. The SNP will 'Bring it on!' as promised. Patience dear friends! The vote could still go either way.
77

TWC,

16/02/2009 09:20:11
81 Rob,

It's not only the Nats who blame Brown and the Bankers.

They are responsible, you can't blame this on the Holyrood MSPs of any Hue. It is usually Nu Labour whose only offering is to attack the Nats.
We need to offer positive reasons for staying in the Union, and a credible alternative for the future.
People won't accept anothet 50 years of Westminster controlling our pocket money.
78

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/02/2009 09:20:24
#78 "I don't understand your logic - are you saying that the exec shoud drop the referendum manifesto commitment for the same reason?"

Not at all. By the time the referendum bill comes along, I believe the parliamentary situation in Holyrood might be rather different to what it is now.
79

Phil C,

16/02/2009 09:23:21
#81 Job

You are obviously another bloody 'expert' with crystal balls!
80

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 09:23:43
Poor old "Pants down". He's never really got over the fact that he has never been offered a cabinet post, and no wonder when he's this deluded.

The unionista parties are terrified of an independence referendum as there is no longer much support for the "Union". How on earth would they present their case? Only the "God save the queen" mob will continue zombie like to vote for a unionista party.

The rest of the population will not put themselves up for ridicule by continuing to vote for criminals like Labour. That would be as insane as voting McCain at the last US election. The thought that somehow the tories are going to be seem as an attractive alternative in Scotland is ludicrous.

Cameron is already on record as saying that Scotland could survive as an independent country, but that he will do everything in his power to prevent it.

The recent disclosure that the unionistas tried to redraw Scotlands territorial waters and thus deprive us of claims to North Sea Oil will anger all genuine Scots while the wretched unionistas will convince themselves that Scotland does not deserve such riches.

How they can even look themselves in the mirror is beyond me. Meanwhile, Labour continue to dismantle all
things British. First they cancel their much hyped "Britishness Day" and now the biggest ST George's parade in Englandshire looks like it will recieve no official assistance as the local council don't want to "offend" any objectors.This will lead to it's cancellation.

Is this the kind of poison we want to see infect Scottish society ? I don't think so.

"Bring it on " as one corrupt lying Labour Leader once said, though somehow, I feel they will delay it as long as possible,,fear of losing paraylising them yet again.
81

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 09:27:53
#81 Rob, you would have to be a complete moron to suggest the SNP could possibly make as big a hash of things than this wretched Labour party.

There have been no signs of SNP incompitence on anything like the scale of Labour's. As for sleaze and corruption, well only the tories are anywhere near Labour's level.

As a matter of interest, who will you be voting for come a General Election. I hope you won't be like all the other unionistas and be too humiliated to reveal who you support.
82

Farky,

16/02/2009 09:33:53
Lord "gravy train" Ashdown.... Another one with great moral pricipals living the "grace & favour" life of Westminster!
83

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 16/02/2009 09:35:45
#81 "the Unionist parties have nothing to fear from a referendum, and never have had"

So why didn't they have one when they were in power, and smash the SNP then?
84

Rob,

16/02/2009 09:37:39
TWC - fair point. Blame of Brown and Co is something we can all get behind - why can't we have impeachment in this country!! I don't blame MSPs or indeed MPs - but I do find it somewhat laughable when they start questioning the bankers qualifications to bank when no-one looks at their qualifications to govern. Ah yes, the power of such wisdom after the event.

However, we're no longer talking about pocket money. The only way out of this particular problem is via the whole UK economy - and what if..........it ever happened again? (Asuuming we get out of it this time, that is)

The SNP absolutely have the capacity to make a wosre mess than even nu Labour. Trying to tar me as a moron for not believing Salmond, Swinney and Co would do any better is just an illustration of your own intellectual vacuity.
85

Rob,

16/02/2009 09:40:00
Last cooment aimed at the clown in Germany no 6 - not at you TWC, apologies.
86

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 09:41:28
Before our lords and masters so graciously gave us our parish council in Edinburgh it was the accepted norm that should The SNP get a majority of Westmonster seats that would be the sign to negotiate Indepndence .
No referendum was necessary .
I would suggest that looking at recent opinion polls and watching Quisling Brown and Co get worse by the day a Labour wipe out is coming throughout this accursed Union .
That said the beneficiaries in Scotland are hardly likely to be The Tories and as for the Liberals well please .
The Unionists also reduced our Westminster representation down to 59 , so 30 seats not the 20 Alex suggested and as they say "game, set, and jerseys!
87

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 16/02/2009 09:47:15
"The FACT is that there has never been a majority for independence in Scotland."

One thing we can say for sure is that this is "speculation" not "fact".
88

TWC,

16/02/2009 09:50:31
96 Rob,Thanks< I ahd to go back and look at my post for a moment.

The Pocket money jibe was because I actually feel that one of the biggest problems for the Union is that it is unfair to Scotland. We can and should collect all our own revenues and taxes and pay for shared issues.
We know best what Scotland needs.
if there is not a big change I think Labour will be wiped out
89

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 09:55:29
Scots Unionists are clearly afraid of holding a Referendum because the present economic downturn is obviously going to become much worse, and could well last several years.

Gordon Brown is drowning in a wave of economic crises and banking scandals and the Labour Party in England is on course for a political wipe-out, just like the Tories in 1997.

These are desperate times, and it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some crypto-nationalist rats could well abandon the Unionist ship, and join the SNP?

The LSE headlines this morning are "Lloyds shares continue to dive as nationalisation fears mount!"
RBS and Barclays shares have also plummeted.
90

,

16/02/2009 09:59:46
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91

Stan Butler,

16/02/2009 10:00:21

Fat N'Eck Salmond won't hold a referendum unless he is sure of a victory because he knows that, as he has said himself, defeat means the issue is off the political agenda for a generation.

Loony tune Russell will get the blame for not proceeding with the referendum.

92

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland, Europe 16/02/2009 10:02:16
This corresponds to a growing tendency I've noticed among the unionist contingent, which is to compound their emotional attachment to Britishness with a normative superiority for the British state. Such statements like 'killing independence stone dead', or trying to 'shoot the nationlist fox' strikes me as ludicrously emotional and made with a worryingly sincere zeal.

The assumption is a basic false proposition, that this form of organisation exists therefore it must be in some way superior to all other forms of organisation, failing to realise that we have probabaly stumbled onto the very worst way of organising things. That can only be attributed to an over-emotional analysis combined with an inability to actually make a positive case for the union, simply entrenching such positions. In other words, 'the facts and figures don't add-up, then we'll make them'. I shouldn't really be surprised that someone who was the leader of a party called the Liberal Democracts should support a referendum, but for these reasons just further demonstrates this over-emotional unionism.
93

,

16/02/2009 10:03:57
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94

,

16/02/2009 10:06:55
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95

Spanish jambo,

16/02/2009 10:16:33
Ashdown: Every time I've seen this man he's ALWAYS made a fool of himself.
Bring it on? Is that the best you can do?
Finish off the SNP? There you go again, always playing the village idiot!

96

,

16/02/2009 10:17:08
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97

Stan Butler,

16/02/2009 10:21:55
#109 Economic Drivel

'the most evil and dark gathering of cruel unsympathetic vindictive manipulators that this planet has ever seen - The London Establishment.'


You're not an Eastenders fan then?
98

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 10:24:05
#111

“A recent independant report”

Was the author of this “independant” report equally as good at spelling as you appear to be?
99

Rob,

16/02/2009 10:25:34
TWC
- yes Labour out for good. Just a mess.
100

,

16/02/2009 10:29:03
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101

IainGlasgow,

16/02/2009 10:36:10
A no vote in a referendum could only finish off the SNP as a political force if it is a very decisive no vote, i.e. in the order of 70% or more and opinion polls have consistently shown no more than about 45-50% at most opposed to independence.

Even a narrow no vote (i.e. 50-60%) would keep the issue very muuch alive and the SNP could change its strategy to one of a gradual advancement of the powers of the Scottish Parliament.

If anything, given the similarity in political philosophies of the SNP and Lib Dems apart from on the constitutional issue, such an outcome would probably be just as (if not more) likely to wipe the Lib Dems off the political map in Scotland. Labour as we can all see are on the verge of splitting down the middle and being in government in Westminster is probably the only thing holding the party together right now. Fact is the SNP are the only party in Scottish Politics whose star is on the rise.
102

ZenBroon,

16/02/2009 10:37:44
All Ashdown's intervention has achieved (apart from some publicity for his book) is to underline how unprincipled and pointless the Lib Dems are.

It is really quite disturbing to hear a senior politician in a democratic state talk about 'finishing' an opposition party, especially one represening what is quite a sizable percentage of the populace.
103

The Tin Man,

16/02/2009 10:40:30
#113 bully

The main thing I have learned from these comment sections is how to spel 'independance'. That, and the discovery that there are transparent threads connected to my body that are pulled by The People Who Are Really In Charge (Kosher Branch).
104

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 10:41:37
#113 Bully wee do not even give him the decency of any kind of acknowledgement .
He will eventually get bored and go away do not give him any credence
105

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 10:48:11
96 Rob, youre losing it son. Salmond is a qualified accountant if i'm not mistaken. Again you are prepared to defend the wretched Labour party although heaven knows why.

What possible evidence can you and your movement put forward to show we would we worse off as an independent country ?.

There is none, you have no case and the more you defend these serial failures the less creedence your posts hold.

Are you seriously going to vote Labour at the next election ???

Can you see any circumstance in the future where you would support independence, or are you one of those
sheep described by the First Minister as :

"A group who feel they are uniquely incapable of looking after their own affairs", because that's what the unionista movement boils down to. Too scared to forge your and your families futures.

I'm sure why you can see why "independienties" regard you and your ilk as pathetic.
106

Florence,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 10:50:14
Ashdown - a wannabe politician. Cuddled up to Tony Blair in the hope of being treated seriously, then slapped down. He should mind his own business and keep out of Scottish politics. The Scots should do what the Afghans did and tell him to take a hike. Pompous ass who has an inflated opinion of himself. Decrying the Scots and the SNP to promote his book is not the way it's done. Get on to the chat shows and day-time t.v., Ashdown. They might want to listen to you.
107

ecosseman,

facts not propaganda 16/02/2009 10:56:30
ANOTHER VERY POOR STORY FROM THE SCOTSMAN.NOTHING NEW THERE THEN.

ROLL ON THE ELECTION!
108

,

16/02/2009 10:56:54
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109

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:12:39
#120 Number 6

Economist as opposed to an Accountant.

A minor point I grant you, unless you happen to be an Economist or an Accountant. :)
110

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:13:07
124 Quisling Gogs
"Apart from the people being infinately better off financially"

On what evidence do you base this assertion?
111

Shredder,

16/02/2009 11:16:29
Don't worry; I'll be the answer if the Na*z rigged "consultative" referendum question ever sees the light of day.
112

,

16/02/2009 11:16:36
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113

,

16/02/2009 11:19:52
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114

,

16/02/2009 11:25:39
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115

Stan Butler,

16/02/2009 11:27:49
#124 Quisling Gogs


'infinately better off'


Why is it that cyber gnats consistently misspell words by replacing an i with an a?

Is it a 'Scottish language' thing?

116

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 11:27:59
#107, Sam (The Father of the Saviour of the World)

The Quasi-Brit BNP website, "the most viewed in the World".

That will be why, Sam, the Quasi-Brit Party receives less than 1 vote/1000 votes in Scotland.

The Quasi-Brit Party is of no relevance to the people of Scotland, as was demonstrated by the spectacular failure of the recruitment drive at Ibrox.
117

Thrawn,

UK 16/02/2009 11:28:05
Paddy Ashdown is from the party that would not support a national referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. So, no consistency there then!

Doesn't he realise that once the self-amending Lisbon Treaty is endorsed, legislation will be put in place to bring about the European superstate with its plethora of regions.

One of these regions will be Scotland, which already has its regional assembly, so Paddy's argument is nonsense. The EU will destroy the national unity that he seems keen to preserve.
118

TWC,

16/02/2009 11:29:20
George,

I think the dismissal of Fiscal Autonomy by Calman confirmed Scotland would be better off, there is no other reason that it would not be supportive of the Union.
This from a non Nat, I always wanted Fiscal Autonomy, I still think there is time but not a lot.
119

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:30:04
120 Number 6
"What possible evidence can you and your movement put forward to show we would we worse off as an independent country ?."

You have confidently asserted that there is "none". On the contrary there is a mountain of research conducted by various bodies such as CPPR at Glasgow Uni, Oxford Economics, Taxpayers alliance, CEBR etc which shows that, even if Scotland is allocated a "geographical share" of oil revenues the fiscal situation in Scotland is hazardous to say the least and that oil revenues do not cover the extra money granted by the Barnett formula in most years let alone pay for the extra costs of running a separate country.

You should also study the recent activity survey by Oil and Gas UK which shows how both oil production and investment are falling in the North Sea.
120

Stan Butler,

16/02/2009 11:30:47
#125 Total Drivel


'I've canvased many more than any purported 'opinion poll' and guess what?'


I guess that you've doorstepped people and that when confronted by a slabbering bug eyed nutjob people have told you anything just to get rid of you.

121

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:32:16
136 TWC
Please see post 136.
122

Florence,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:33:47
41 ST. SCOTLAND: If there is a NO vote then that matter is dead for a generation. This has been widely reported. By the way, the SNP got virtually nowhere until Salmond took the reins. Swinney, nice, capable man that he is couldn't hack it as leader. Salmond, a first rate leader and First Minister who puts Scotland first. Look at the profile we have now and the ambition compared with two or three years ago. Why are you so bitter about Salmond? Were you at any time stupid enough to get into a debate with him and he slapped you down in one fell swoop? Are you a former pupil of Iain Gray?
123

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:36:21
131 Quisling Gogs
"The highest unemployment in the western world"

Where do you get your evidence from. This assertion is completely wrong. If you study unemployment rates in the EU measured on the same ILO basis you will find that the rate in Scotland is one of the lowest.

Please check your facts before you make such erroneous statements.
124

,

16/02/2009 11:36:32
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125

Enigma,

16/02/2009 11:38:14
131

`le`s prove we`re an anti Scottish party`.

I presume you mean Brown and Labour, the party who implementing dismemberment of England by stealth through their `regional` policy, who insist that self government for England would unbalance this so called `Union` and who in time of financial crisis have raided surplus cash from the English NHS, small wonder we still get to pay prescription charges!

I note that Ashdown is not promoting a referendum for England. Fear of the result perhaps.
126

,

16/02/2009 11:42:58
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127

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:48:56
144 Quisling Gogs
If unemployment has been such a huge problem in Scotland how have thousands of Eastern Europeans managed to come here and find work?

They are not working for slave labour wages. I know Poles here who have good jobs, set up businesses and bought themselves houses/flats etc.
128

Scheme,

16/02/2009 11:50:24
I wonder what Paddy thinks of this:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5728477.ece


This alone should be more than enough to convince Scots to get off their @rses and vote ‘yes’ in an independence referendum.
129

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:50:25
#72/145 Rules
“The SNP's failure to give us a referendum is creating the equivalent to Planning Blight where no one can make any plans until the big decision is made”

Do you think that if you keep posting the same drivel over and over again it makes it any more valid?

Can you point to an example of where the proposed referendum has stopped anyone of any significance from making any plans?
130

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 16/02/2009 11:50:46
the simple solution is a referendum for an English Parliament when the answer will be apositive YES.that way ineffect total independence forALL WILL BE ASIMPLE STEP.
131

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 11:51:19
132 Stan Butler,16/02/2009 11:27:49
#124 Quisling Gogs
'infinately better off'
Why is it that cyber gnats consistently misspell words by replacing an i with an a?
Is it a 'Scottish language' thing?
======================================================

Good point Stan.

Somewhat ironically, most of them cannot spell 'independence' either.

=======================================================
142 Quisling Gogs,16/02/2009 11:36:32
Talk of a referendum on independance seems to rattled a few Onionists.
=======================================================

They know what they want but they don't know how to spell it!!
132

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 11:51:33
144 Quisling Gogs
PS
As another means of refuting your claim it is also possible to study the proportion of the population who are in work. Once again you will find that the situation in Scotland is better than most.
133

British flag,

16/02/2009 11:54:57
Well said paddy! scottish unionists have little to fear,the nats are all talk and little else. Bring it on Salmond!
134

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 12:04:39
The SNP would hold a referendum if they thought they could win it. They know they can't, so don't.

Swinney has sneakily deferred the LIT bill so he can use the lower council tax boast as a bribe at referendum time. If LIT had been done now we'd have all watched the middle-classes who run Scotland head for the borders. Perhaps the SNP will build a wall before introducing LIT?

The SNP are weak, their independence agenda irrelevant, they know their coats are hung on shaky pegs. Still, at least their not Labour.

I wonder what the SNP will do when the majority votes no to independence? Can they survive or will the party fragment into even less relevant groups ala Sheridon and Galloway?
135

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 12:05:05
137# George. Oil and Gas are not the be all and end all. Look how many countries survive independently WITHOUT such resources.

We are a nation of less than 5 million souls. We have the oppertunity, using future technologies,as well as natural resources, to forge an economy that actually benefits our citizens.

The potential for re-newable energy projects in Scotland are huge. As are the recycling oppertunities.
Englandshire will never get it's act together in that regard so we could end up recycling all their rubbish, cretating thousands of jobs .We will also end up providing them with both water and electricity in the future.

Can you see no potential for Scotland at all ?

If we stay in this wretched union all we will be offered in the future will be a couple of Russian subs to dismantle, as that seems to be englandshire's new growth industry, scrapping vessels deemed too dangerous for Egypt and even India.

Why oh why do some Scots seem to think they are incapable of anything on their own? We must break this dependancy mindset among the unionistas and get them to stand on their own 2 feet like the rest of Europe.

Even Kosovo seems to manage to get support for their cause.Heaven knows what Kosovars make of Scotland's unionista movement.
136

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 12:06:59
#152 Brit flag, were you not wittering on recently about wanting englandshire to try and gain independence?

You really are a confused little student, arn't you.
137

Lumpy Dan,

Partick 16/02/2009 12:08:47
You can tell Ashdown is trying to flog his autobiography with his wee gauntlet thrown down to the Jocks in front of a gleefully accepting unionist press pack.

Another day, another unionist Lord wallowing in the trough of self pulicity and greed..yawn and sigh .
138

,

16/02/2009 12:09:50
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139

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:10:57
151. Scottish unemployment figures stand at 137,000, christ,south yorkshire alone has a higher unemployment rate,stop twatterling on.
140

,

16/02/2009 12:14:06
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141

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:14:25
155. I am not a student! and when the people of England decide they want independence we will have it,in the meantime, concentrate on your own referendum if it ever happens!
142

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:18:45
157. Sorry,are you saying that the SNP supported the IRA even though scottish soldiers were being shot dead by these terrorists!
143

The Master,

16/02/2009 12:19:17
What Ashdown fails to grasp is that Wendy's outburst was completely ill advised because it scuppered secret attempts by the Westminster Government to pre empt the Nats' rigged "consultative" question with a snap poll involving a fair "separation: yes or no" type question.

Sorry, Mr Ashdown, it's not the principle of a referendum which is the main point of contention, but the separatists' attempts to soften up public opinion through the use of careful legal wording referring to "negotiations".

If the Nutty Nats don't have the power to ask a clear and unambiguous question, then this should be left to Westminster who quite clearly do have necessary power, if they are so minded: end of!
144

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 12:19:33
160 British flag

I think you have a good point. England will have her independence from Scotland when England wants it. When the oil has run out, Scotland is nothing more than an albatross around our necks and should be dumped. But until that time England should enjoy the relationship.

The largest oil reserves in the UK are currently sitting pretty and untapped in England, I think that's a wise course of action, no point in using those until English independence.

I think the SNP will lose the referendum due to the educated middle-classes needing England for the jobs. The clients of the state may vote yes if Salmond can convince them that there is any oil left.

In the unlikely event of Scotland voting yes, England will take 85% of the oil from the UK continental shelf, 100% of her own land based oil and give Scotland 50% of our debt.
145

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 12:20:56
I stopped reading at the first paragraph. Paddy is obviously confused. Whatever the result of a referendum on independence, The SNP are not going anywhere. Like most westminster politicians, he is too insular and fails to understand that the SNP are the only party capable of putting Scotland first. Labour, lib dem and tory MSPs will always be controlled from Westminster and will never be allowed to do anything for the good of Scotland that could cause anger or resentment in the rest of the UK.
As far as Scotland goes, the dependency parties days are numbered. We are on the road, and even though it may be long and bumpy - I can never see us turning back.
146

The Master,

16/02/2009 12:21:42
#161 Flag: don't shout too loudly that the SNP are Scotland's answer to Sinn Fein!

Their agenda is as contentious as Sinn Fein's in Northern Ireland and as unlikely to succeed.
147

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 12:22:46
I should add that I'm an Englishman living and working in Scotland. You don't have many educated people up here in Glasgow and so need the English to manage most your companies. Voting yes to independence would be suicide for you.
148

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 12:26:13
Also, may I say that your currency isn't accepted by Londoners because it's toilet paper. Now that you've ruined your banking system maybe more English cities will see the daylight and start refusing the toilet paper Scottish currency.

Can you imagine how worthless your currency would be without the Bank of England proping your banks up like this. The Scots can't get anything right beyond whiskey.
149

Lumpy Dan,

Partick 16/02/2009 12:26:19
#157.."if westminster controls the usual parties in Scotland then Iran controls the SNP and to those who want to challenge paddy do so to his face not on here if you like Hospital food
it was the SNP that gave the ira support during the 60's "

Congrats..you have managed to squeeze in more ignorance and chunder in 45 words than the rest of the combined unioinst contribution on this thread..now stop bangin yir heid off yir flair!
150

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:26:31
163. Excellant!
151

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 12:26:44
166 You are a troll. As if we don't have enough of them. Go away.
152

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16/02/2009 12:30:51
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153

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 16/02/2009 12:31:24
See you Jimmy, bring it on! This is pitiful behaviour from the Lib Dems. You should add to being a human being, not subtract from it.
154

The Master,

16/02/2009 12:32:47
#163: "England will have her independence from Scotland when England wants it"

Cobblers! The people of Scotland are as keen to remain part of Britain as those of Northern Ireland and, if NI was never forced out despite a campaign of terror in England, I completely fail to see how Scotland will ever be forced out.
155

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:32:58
165. If this is true it needs shouting from the roof tops,as there is no way the people of England and the decent people of Scotland and Wales should have to go through this again.
156

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 12:33:08
170 Observer,,

You are the one with two commas, you are the fakey and troll.

My points are correct, independence would be suicide for the Scots because of their failed banking system, worthless currency, lack of education and inability to manage their own affairs.

Look at that monstrous Scottish Parliament for one. You should have got England to build it for you, maybe it'd have come in on budget.

Right now we have the Scots going over budget on everything in Westminster. I think Scots shouldn't be allowed to hold cabinet positions, they just f**k it all up.
157

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 12:34:37
#167

“The Scots can't get anything right beyond “whiskey.”

This from someone who regards him/her self as being “educated”.

However I’m glad you don’t have a Grouse with our whisky, but ask not from whom the Bell’s toll, they toll for thee!
158

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16/02/2009 12:35:14
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159

,

16/02/2009 12:35:42
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160

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 12:35:52
Good morning Observer.

Someone told me you were having a problem with your mouse.

I searched the internet and found the ideal solution for you.

http://i39.tinypic.com/23uppiu.jpg

:-)

161

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 12:37:08
175 I don't rise to troll-bait. Try someone else - troll.
162

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:37:45
173. With 51 million are you going to stop us!
163

Publius,

London 16/02/2009 12:37:52
#19 Sanny
You write that "it WAS the stated intention of the SNP to demonstrate to the Scottish electorate that, despite the claims of the unionist propaganda, they can form a credible government. Now, despite being a minority government, they have clearly shown the way it should be..."

The SNP has not demonstrated that it can form a credible government. LIT - its flagship policy - has been abandoned. School building has come to a standstill. The abolition of tolls on the Forth Road Bridge has ensured that there won't be enough money to build a decent six lane, motorway standard replacement. And Alex Salmond's claims about Scotland becoming a small prosperous country like other in Northern Europe have been exposed as absurd. The banks in Ireland and Iceland are bust. And Finland and Sweden are about to build new nuclear power stations - despite an abundance of flowing water.

164

JCA REID,

Annan 16/02/2009 12:41:14
The only reasons for the Unionist/English being anti-Scottish independence are these:-
1) THe economic contribution to Westminster coffers from north of the border, not just the oil. If the oil had been found off the Cornish coast Scotland would have seen nowt. We've just got a few jobs & offices in Aberdeen. So, why is the Marine boundary between the 2countries up by Carnoustie & not down by cockburnspath near Berwick? England would fall out of the world's 5th. largest producer of oil to complete obscurity.

2)The psychological aspect - it means England still rules over another people to keep the masses down there a sense of superiority. I have seen this & personally suffered this whilst serving in HM forces & working in the south of England - even from folk who couldn't do joined up writing! I met some great folk in both but when pressed, it came to the surface. They simply don't want to see others whom they've perceived as inferior & a land they viewed they somehow had a god-given right to rule over over succeed & make a better go of things.
165

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 12:41:35
181

Quite, how are the Scottish going to stop English independence when Scotland starts producing a defecit to the treasury? Will they stalk England like a spurned lover, it's embarassing.

The Scots should have the dignity to know when they're not wanted when the time comes. They may feel a bit bad about having been used for so long, but that's life. You learn from your mistakes, except that Salmond and co want to make a new Union with the EU. Will these people ever learn?
166

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 12:45:42
#182
“The abolition of tolls on the Forth Road Bridge has ensured that there won't be enough money to build a decent six lane, motorway standard replacement”

Do you think that a “decent six lane motorway standard” bridge would have been funded by tolls on the existing bridge?

Do don’t appear to be very bright.
167

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16/02/2009 12:46:10
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168

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:48:00
185. The EU,christ, i'd rather make a union with the devil! The EU is full of "do gooders" that haven't got a clue in hell about every day life.
169

bill-alba,

fife 16/02/2009 12:48:51
isnt it funny how the treachourous british and their vichy scots allies start talking amongst themselves toward the end of the comments.
170

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 12:49:15
186 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 16/02/2009 12:45:42

Do don’t appear to be very bright.
=====================================================

HAHAHAHAHA

The illiterate Bully Boy strikes again.

He takes a lot of time to correct everybody else and look at the gibberish he himself posts.

People in glass houses Bully Boy!

What a fool.
171

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16/02/2009 12:50:25
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172

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:54:25
187. UNFORTUNATLY, cameron is cosying up to salmond,the Englishman with a scottish father called those in England that asked for a fairer deal "Little Englanders", guess we'll have to bring this guy down a peg or two!
173

British flag,

16/02/2009 12:56:04
192. True, but the EU!
174

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 12:58:27
"Lord Ashdown spoke ahead of the Scottish Legal Awards next month, which he will be presenting. The former Liberal Democrat leader still believes that devolution has "killed off" attempts to break up the UK, but has argued that his own and other pro-Union parties should be more willing to take on the SNP head to head."

The title Lord just says it all!!!!
175

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 13:00:04
187# Voice of insanity : Can I point out that that "Porridgewog" and his gang have been governing you now for more than a decade. How humiliating must that be ?.

Governed by a bunch of village idiots simply because you are incapable of producing anyone with leadership qualities.

Like your sports teams, you seem unable to produce anyone capable of leadership or inspiration.

Your countrymen continue to vote for Labour even as they dismantle everything "English" about your little region.

Are you aware your biggest ST George's day parade is due to be cancelled for fear of causing offence?.

That's how low you have sunk as a nation and nothing will reverse the self loathing self destruction under Labour.

I almost feel sorry for you.
176

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16/02/2009 13:05:23
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177

British flag,

16/02/2009 13:06:56
198. For the love of god eve,GROW UP!
178

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 13:08:33
Isn't it wonderous to read the abject fear in the Quasi-Brit comments at the very mention of the words, "Referendum on Scottish Independence"?

All the lies, smears and misrepresentation have been already been tried, and have failed. This is evidenced by the increasing SNP support, in actual alections, since May 2007.
179

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16/02/2009 13:10:43
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ochone,

Sauchie, Clacks 16/02/2009 13:10:54
I see there 's no mention again of the fact that Westminster, (lib Dems) included could vote through a Scottish referendum if itwanted to.

Wonder why it's never wanted to?
181

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16/02/2009 13:11:18
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182

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 13:14:37
200 ''Just look at Israel/Pakistan, we still laugh about those to this day''

I'm quite sure you do. Even the normal empire loyalists who post here would take a step back from that one. You are a nasty piece of work.
183

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 13:15:58
207 - see 200. That is your fellow countryman ?
184

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:16:07
203 Traqueer , Alba,16/02/2009 13:08:37
The Scottish Nasty Party bully boys are everywhere in here Rufus.
They attack, spew bile and hatred against anything or anyone who takes a contrary posiion.

They have FORCED many people out of these threads by their continual barrage of abuse. Their slogan for the next election should be "Arbeit macht frei"
======================================================
Don't worry Traqueer.

They wont bully me off of here that's for sure.

Edwin Cullen 'Ayrshire Scot' Skink went crying to the moderator yesterday because I published all his various monikers yesterday.

He carefully ensured that every post with the monikers in it was removed as he obviously wants no one to know.

He can run but he can't hide!
185

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 13:16:49
200# Voice etc... It's not the Scots you would be offending, we thought last years parade looked hilarious, especially the knights leading it.

No, it's you massive muslim population that are offended. You have already instigated Sharia law in England and obviousley, your local, ENGLISH politicians feel uncomfortable about being english and are trying to keep it under wraps.

After all they don't want to be charged and sentenced to death by stoning for insulting Islam, now do they.

As Michael Moore once said : "Dude where's my country?"

And you wonder why so many Scots now want shot of you.
We don't want Sharia law instigated in our country thank you very much.

PS can you inform british flag that GB is already in the EU. That's why so many of englandshire's jobs are going to migrant workers.

British jobs for British workers Ha Ha Ha.

The "Union dividend" in all it's perversity.
186

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16/02/2009 13:18:09
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187

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 13:18:25
#203

If any of my posts annoy the cringers and self-loathing then those individuals should ask themselves why they hate Scotland so much.
188

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 13:18:39
203 You seem to have missed the trolls such as Sam the BNP bam who does his best to force people off the threads on a daily basis. Funny that. You must be very selective in what posts you read.
189

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 13:20:07
#190 bill-alba: Pass!!!

But there is a very amusing confersation going on, reminds me of thoes two person jokes you get.
190

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 13:21:45
207 Jane, "Self loathing" can be quantified.

How do you explain the cancellation of "Britishness day" and now St George's day parades.

I would be fascinated to hear your explanation.

What on earth is wrong with you?. Why are you as a nation so uncomfortable about expressing your national identity?
191

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:22:58
Good afternoon to you as well Wardog.

Where have you been?

I liked your dancing in that video by the way.
192

British flag,

16/02/2009 13:26:47
219. Nothing wrong with us,just the naff scots we have in government.
193

redcliffe62,

brizvegas 16/02/2009 13:27:03
Ashdown failed at politics because he was a soldier first and politician secoond. Nice enough guy but politically inept.
Whilst I appreciate any London party having a different opinion from that of their scottish country bumpkin cousins, which would be particulalry relevant if the scottishlabour party mice could produce more than a squeak, Ashdown does not deserve column inches at this time.
Why any soldiers are in Afghanistan defies logic, nobody from Afghansitan has ever threatened Scotland to my knowledge. (Bin Laden is still safe in Pakistan.)
Some discussion in the supposedly esteemed pages of this journal about whether whitehall has changed its anti scottish position of the 1970's, and some discussion on whether a 20 year plan to falsify marine borders which was passed by the votes of english mp's in 1998 at the suggestion of whitehall and labour should be repealed based on the resoning it wa sapproved would be of interest to those who believe in fair play, honesty and integrity.
A vote on this would soon see the independence of the scottish affiliates linked to london fall firmly into line, as they know who is boss.
Ashdown nice though he is at a superficial level fails miserably in that regard, he is the establishment. He does not have the interests of sottish people as a priority, and nor should he if truth be told.
194

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 13:29:52
211. Rufus P Firefly

"They wont bully me off of here that's for sure"

I see the pound is pummelling the Euro again.


Banking woes see pound fall against dollar and euro
* G7 silence on currency also weighs
* BoE minutes eyed for more quantitative easing indications
By Kirsten Donovan
LONDON, Feb 16 (Reuters) - Sterling fell against the dollar on Monday as concerns over Britain's Lloyds Banking Group heightened banking sector worries and after the Group of Seven finance ministers made no comment on the currency.

“Well done Gordon Brown.”
195

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16/02/2009 13:31:19
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196

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:31:30
222 Wardog™,16/02/2009 13:26:16
Do you were the headress when you answer the phone?
======================================================

You got it.

Sometimes the feathers make it difficult to hear what the customers are saying mind you.

Yesterday for example, I thought someone was saying 'Have a nice day' but what they were actually saying was that 'Wardog is Gay'.
197

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16/02/2009 13:35:44
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198

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 13:35:53
How did former Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown become a Lord?

Did he donate money to the Labour party? :L Cause that seems to be the main reason that Lordships are given for lately.
199

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 13:37:10
229 Sam most of Sighthill has been cleared of tenants as the blocks are getting demolished, so they aren't rehousing anyone there. DO KEEP UP. If you are going to ''pose'' as a BNP supporter at least do a bit of research first.
200

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:37:17
226 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 16/02/2009 13:29:52
I see the pound is pummelling the Euro again.


Banking woes see pound fall against dollar and euro
* G7 silence on currency also weighs
* BoE minutes eyed for more quantitative easing indications
By Kirsten Donovan
LONDON, Feb 16 (Reuters) - Sterling fell against the dollar on Monday as concerns over Britain's Lloyds Banking Group heightened banking sector worries
======================================================

I never mentioned anything about the dollar.

However, once again today the pound is continuing its rise against the Euro
201

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16/02/2009 13:38:38
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202

IainGlasgow,

16/02/2009 13:39:16
#98

If I understand correctly then the legal interpretation of the Act of Union is that it is a contractual arrangement between two parties and therefore notice can be given that it is being withdrawn from by either party if a majority of Scottish MPs (or a majority of English MPs) vote to do so. So if by any chance the SNP manage to get a majority of Scottish seats at the UK General Election (hardly a remote possibility) they should use that as their nuclear option - i.e. the Scottish Government should say to the Scottish Parliament either you back our referendum bill or our MPs simply tear up the treaty and ask the UN to resolve the matter.
203

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16/02/2009 13:39:24
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204

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 13:39:54
#228 Wardog™,: "Liberal Democrats.... would you let them babysit?"

No I would even let them babysit a gold fish!!
205

British flag,

16/02/2009 13:42:25
236. That works both ways! maybe England should do the same!
206

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 13:44:06
Gordon Brown is Scottish, most of the cabinet are Scottish. God help an independant Scotland, but you are welcome to them back. Blair was Scottish.

I wonder how long it would take to become independent after the yes vote, month, years or decades? England should time it well so that good, decent, educated and well spoken Englishmen don't have the burden of having to pay off all Scotland's "public" sector and heroin/alcohol related crime.
207

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16/02/2009 13:45:41
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208

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 13:45:55
#237 Lost flag: Why give advice you cannae folow yer self?

And who on earth do you think you are dictating to who may comment and who may not comment. The comment police!!!

209

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 13:47:50
I do like Angus beef, Scottish Salmon and a bottle of Scotch though. Maybe England can trade you some of her cheap land based oil for these items seeing as an independent Scotland would have very little oil. In fact you'd only be entitled to 10% of the UK continental shelf, at most.
210

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:47:53
235 Sam The Man the snp Fear Most,16/02/2009 13:38:38
wardog what is your line of work?, as if i did not know.
======================================================

Sam he has been applying for jobs in Call Centres but he keeps getting rejected.

Hence his Call Centre obsession.
211

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 13:49:35
245 they are riddled with asbestos for a start and are as damp as hell. It's good they're coming down. Just like Blackhill did. A bit ironic that, you coming from Blackhill. Whitehill would have suited you a lot better I reckon.
212

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 13:50:10
247 Wardog

Can I name them all? Of course not!

Like all work-shy Scots Brown has created layers and layers of non-jobs for other lazy scots. They are literally coming out of the wood work.
213

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:51:10
Wardog is late arriving on this forum because he has been on a training course.

http://preetamrai.com/weblog/images/call_centre_training.jpg
214

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16/02/2009 13:52:59
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215

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 13:58:44
Wardog

The UK continental shelf is a UK asset, the name sais it all, please read is again. The UK continental shelf.

As such, Scotland making up no more than 10% of the UK would get no more than 10% of UK assets. If Scotland declared the UK shelf as independent the international community wouldn't acknowledge it. We'd be up their like a shot with the English navy to sort you out.

Scotland is weak and getting poorer, when you become so poor that we don't need you we will let you know. We will also set the terms of departure as we are 90% of the UK.
216

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 13:58:45
259 Wardog™,16/02/2009 13:57:24

253. Roger P Flipeye

Oh dear, I had to pick myself up off the floor.
=====================================================

Please Don't.

Not on my account.

Leave yourself down there.
217

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16/02/2009 13:59:42
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218

British flag,

16/02/2009 14:01:40
246. And who the hell are you to disrepect a good man like paddy Ashdown!
219

IainGlasgow,

16/02/2009 14:03:33
#131

It's nothing new either, Scotland (and perhaps to a lesser extent Northern England and South Wales) has always posed a threat to the elitist establishment in London.

Most recently it has been what can only be a deliberate failure (even in a UK context) to fully realise and properly invest in (and with the revenues from) north sea oil. We have also seen the eradication of heavy engineering, hi-tech manufacturing and coal and steel industries - hitting Scotland hardest but not confined to Scotland. We have also seen the wholesale privatisation of the UK's assets and subsequent sale of them to foreign companies.

This is about the fear of Socialist or Communist uprising among working classes. There was the real threat of a Communist uprising on Clydeside in the early part of the 20th Century - so much so the Army was sent into Glasgow Tianunmun Square style (something much avoided in the annals of Scottish history but nevertheless something that should generate support for independence far more so than memories of William Wallace or the Jacobite Rebellion). Following that, shipbuilding on the Clyde has been all but eradicated.

We have also seen the dumbing down of education, especially among working classes. As anyone knows nothing poses more of a threat to political elitists than educated and learned workers. Many skilled jobs have been wiped out and a dependency culture created in their place, subsidised by the very economic mismanagement that has brought about the current financial crisis. An unsustainable situation that has been stewing for decades and finally come to a head.
220

The Master,

16/02/2009 14:05:37
#264 Flag: from his comments, I can see that Paddy has Scotland's best interests at heart, unlike the SNP (who will no doubt make themselves as scarce as bankers if separation ever happens and ordinary people come looking for their blood!)
221

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:07:02
Wardog, go easy with the whip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuCPckU5bx0
222

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 14:07:22
266 Wardog

There is no need to discuss that, the Union will stay strong so long as Scotland has oil.

Here's a wee link for you on independence and Scotland's sole claim to North Sea Oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigs_fly
223

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 14:08:41
I really do think pigs will fly before England lets Scotland steal UK oil. We conquered you fair and square, don't be such a bad loser.
224

Number 6,

16/02/2009 14:12:51
223# British flag(Did you not used to be English flag?).

It's not Scots politicians that have cancelled St Georges day, it's local ENGLISH councillors. ENGLISH.

It's that old self-loathing rearing it's ugly head again. The sad thing is, there won't be any protest apart from Maj (retd) Cromwell in the Times.
225

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 14:13:27
#234 Rufus
“However, once again today the pound is continuing its rise against the Euro”

As at close of play on Friday 13th February £1 GBP was worth 1.13103 Euro.

At 2.06 pm today this had declined to 1.1183 Euro.
(source :Reuters)
226

British flag,

16/02/2009 14:14:47
268. Pity the Scottish Numpty Party,can't or won't, put the interests of it's citizens before it's own ends!
227

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 16/02/2009 14:15:12
Never mind "Bring it on", Paddy Pantsdown,

"Pull them up!"
228

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:15:30
Nice hat Wardog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDEKxF7Bhn4
229

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 14:15:48
Would any of the Quasi-Brits, commenting here, like to explain, rationally, why there should not be a Referendum on Inependence?

Also, rationally, why this Referendum should not take place in 2010, as clearly stated in the SNP 2007 Manifesto.

Indeed, why are you not commeting on the subject of this thread: A Referendum on Scottish Independence?
230

British flag,

16/02/2009 14:16:35
275. Directed to do so by scots in westminster!
231

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16/02/2009 14:16:45
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232

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:18:27
276 bully wee alba,Edinburgh 16/02/2009 14:13:27
#234 Rufus
“However, once again today the pound is continuing its rise against the Euro”
As at close of play on Friday 13th February £1 GBP was worth 1.13103 Euro.
At 2.06 pm today this had declined to 1.1183 Euro.
(source :Reuters)
====================================================

Not according to the real-time price on City Index.

The Euro is currently down 50 ticks against the Pound.
233

British flag,

16/02/2009 14:18:29
280.With all due respect, the unionists WANT a referendum so you lot will shut up!
234

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 14:19:19
282

"It's England's bile"

235

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 14:19:21
#264 British flag: I'm really sorry to hear that your visoin has been distorded and you think am dissing a former great polution.

My point is lords are pretty well knowen to blindly comment about areas they no nothing or little about. Northing persnal about Paddy him self. He was once my favorate leader of unionist parties. I have none now.

The man is clearly culess when it come to the politics of Scottish independence. It is very ovbouse because he makes out that it is only the SNP that want Independence. The want and the need for Scottish independece is bigger and stronger than one political party i.e. the SNP.
236

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:20:26
280 frank mcbride,lusitania 16/02/2009 14:15:48
Would any of the Quasi-Brits, commenting here, like to explain, rationally, why there should not be a Referendum on Inependence?
=======================================================
Good afternoon Frank.

I think there should be a referendum.

However it should be a simple yes/no question.

None of this nonsense about beginning negotiations etc.
237

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 14:21:32
283
Hi Rufus.

How many ticks to the sheep, England's next currency?
238

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:25:12
Good Afternoon Conan.

If you want to know about sheep, may I suggest you speak to Alasdair mac Alasdair Mór Mac an Righ.
239

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 14:26:09
Jane, judging by your post, Arrogance.

You don't promote great englanders of the past because apart from there not being many of them,you dont wish to "offend" your migrant population. You have no sense of national identity, nothing.

England is very much a cultural desert hence the ease with which the Muslim community get's their way.

. This is one of the reasons you have cancelled St George's day parades.

Why does displaying your identity cause you so much anguish and humiliation?

A very strange race indeed.

As for Britishness day, that is cancelled due to a complete lack of interest,as I confidently predicted.

As for pandering to tourists, no one does it better than London.
240

P Rayner.,

London. 16/02/2009 14:27:32
When and if , a referendum is held I dobt Scots will vote for separation . If so I can´t quite see how this would lead to the demise of the SNP ? Sensibly It should accept the status quo , accept that independence for Scotland is unwanted , attempt to cement itself as a serious long term alternative to Labour in Scotland and metamorphasise into a party for the whole Union . Lets face it the two main parties are responsible for Britains demise , maybe the SNP could do better .
241

British flag,

16/02/2009 14:29:12
286. With only 29% of scots wanting independence and half of them haven't a clue what that will entail,it's quite frankly a none starter! please explain where the 33 billion pounds that Westminster allocates to scotland will come from!
242

The Master,

16/02/2009 14:32:37
#280 McBride: may I refer you to my post at #173.

Rational enough for you?


243

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 14:34:04
281 British Flag:

Have you any proof of your allegation that Scots directed english councillors to cancel St George's day?.

Have you any idea just how stupid your beginning to sound?

#Are you unionistas having a competition to see who can come up with the most tripe?.

There must be a handler's position coming free.
244

The Master,

16/02/2009 14:34:45
#280 McBride: meant my post at #162.
245

British flag,

16/02/2009 14:34:52
285. Englands truth!
246

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:37:42
291 Cynicus in Exile,16/02/2009 14:26:02
Mind you, you haven't been around that long.
Who were you in May, 2008?
====================================================

Untrue I was Rufus in May 2008 as well.
247

TWC,

16/02/2009 14:38:25
298 British flag,

If they hold the referendum without first offering real fiscal autonomy the Nats will win.
I am so sure of that I'm going to put money on it.
Status Quo is not an option that the Scots will back.
Also what's the difference it takes away all the subsidy accusations.
248

The Master,

16/02/2009 14:39:32
299 Rufus: were you English Voice before? Just that I've always wondered!
249

Gorach,

Oban 16/02/2009 14:40:34
Aye, bring it on Paddy boy, bring it on!

The SNP is not going away and neither are the good people north of the border that care about Scotland and her future. The game is on laddie.

Slainte!




250

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 14:41:02
298

As perceived by your prejudiced perception, perhaps.

251

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:42:58
301 The Master,16/02/2009 14:39:32
299 Rufus: were you English Voice before? Just that I've always wondered!
====================================================

No that was never me.

I assure you.
252

The Master,

16/02/2009 14:43:24
#300 TWC: "If they hold the referendum without first offering real fiscal autonomy the Nats will win.
I am so sure of that I'm going to put money on it."

Will they f**k! I think Scots will all to easily be talked down from the skyscraper (however much the culty fanatics in the SNP implore them to jump!
253

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 14:43:54
299

So you weren't Alfred E. Neuman, Rufus?
254

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 14:44:31
#284 BF & #288 Rumpus.

I'm delighted that you are in favour of a Referendum, however, this seems to be at odds with the politicians you are supporting.

Rumpus, I would have to agree with you but, unfortunately, because the SNP is a constitutional Party it has to act within the constraints of the Scotland Act.

I would, also, agree that a simple YES/NO Referendum would be preferable. Unfortunately, yet again, the politicians that you support do not agree withyour proposition.

BF.

If, however, Westminster is so sure that there is no substantial support for Independence, why does it not legislate for a simple YES/NO Referendum?

Is it that Westminster's altruism knows no bounds, or is it something very different?

255

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:44:34
300 TWC,16/02/2009 14:38:25
298 British flag,
If they hold the referendum without first offering real fiscal autonomy the Nats will win.
I am so sure of that I'm going to put money on it.
======================================================

Still smarting from your lost Tenner on a Glenrothes win?

Did Salmond refund all your losing bets? He was culpable.
256

Geoff,

sa 16/02/2009 14:44:54
289 Conan the Librarian-Hi Conan! The bullets are flying thick and fast today! Alas, some of the Unionist persuasion on todays topic,need to read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People!" Insulting Scots in general, is unlikely to aid the cause of the Union..or am I being naive..are these guys some of "your lot" playing the agents provocateur? Hope you are well. Beautiful day here in KZN!
Three cheers for the Red White and Blue!
257

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 14:48:04
306 Conan the Librarian™,16/02/2009 14:43:54
299

So you weren't Alfred E. Neuman, Rufus?
======================================================

Conan, definitely not.

Funnily enough I was just trying to find some posts from myself from last May, and Alfred E Neuman's name came up!

He was not me however.

258

Geoff,

sa 16/02/2009 14:50:04
On the subject,the thing i would fear most for Scotland and her future is some kind of perpetual stalemate a la Quebec. If comments on these forums and the remarks of various MSP's are anything to go by then it would appear that attitudes are hardening and Scotland is polarising around the issue.

One big Rangers-Celtic stalemate covering the whole country!
259

,

16/02/2009 14:53:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
260

Gorach,

Oban 16/02/2009 14:56:14
261
Aye and the Americans will be over like a shot to sort out the English. Think clearly laddie.

261

TWC,

16/02/2009 15:33:56
Rufus–T–Firefly

I didn't bet on the Glenrothes result, I only back sure things.
305 The Master Language Language my boy.

Times have changesd and the bounce is gone. Berown is taking Labour down with the ship.
262

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 15:35:24
I think it's a true reflection on just how badly the SNP are running scared when everyone wants their referendum apart from them.

I will wet myself laughing if they ditch their last remaining manifesto promise.

It is embarassing to see so many SNP bloggers running scared.
263

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 15:35:48
315 TWC,16/02/2009 15:33:56
Rufus–T–Firefly

I didn't bet on the Glenrothes result, I only back sure things.
====================================================

Yeah, but, sure things do not exist! Well, certainly not sure things that you can bet on.
264

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 15:36:02
311 #Jane, you said: "The English have never been an inclusive society". You can say that again. There's that arrogance again.

As for "welcoming the jews" that will be news to them. As I understand it, they were persecuted and finally turfed out of Englandshire, having been robbed blind.

265

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 15:37:04
#282 The informed voice of reason: OMG where on earth do you get such discrimintive opinions from?

You don't half Stereo type people and build barriers aginsit your self!!!

266

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 15:39:23
317 Rufus

£10 accumulator on Alex Salmond, Mr Swinney and Ms Sturgeon making everyone cringe next week?
267

Number 6,

Germany 16/02/2009 15:40:01
316 That's astonishing that you would perceive the nationalist movement as somehow being scared of a referendum.

The SNP has already stated when it plans to go to the country and will certainly not be dictated to by Labour's laughable detatchment in our Parliment.

The rest of the unionista parties can play to the gallery all they want, but it's only morons like yourself who fall for their gibberish.

How on earth do your handlers keep a straight face while their feeding you the tripe you post ?.
268

The informed voice of reason,

16/02/2009 15:41:33
319 Eve

You've obviously never been to Hawick then? Let's just say they have a few strong things to say about the neighbouring villages and anyone more than 2 miles away from the town center. You should see them on a Saturday night after a few pints of "Whit tha f**k are yay lucking at." Which is the only lager on tap in Hawick.
269

Eve,

16/02/2009 15:46:13
#312 Geoff,sa:
"One big Rangers-Celtic stalemate covering the whole country"

Sounds depressing!!!!!!!

You do realise some of us who grow up in the Glasgow area, aren't quite over the last problem we had with the Rangers-Celtic thing.

270

,

16/02/2009 15:50:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
271

British flag,

16/02/2009 15:54:07
314. And why would they do that? As it is the people of England that have supported them not you nat scots.
272

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 15:56:08
#283 Rufus

“Not according to the real-time price on City Index.

The Euro is currently down 50 ticks against the Pound”

Imbecilic drivel

Your link appears to refer to a spread betting web-site, which compares currency exchange values against what they were 5 minutes ago.

Your claim that the Euro was down by 50 ticker points appears to refer to the fact that the Euro had dropped in one five minute period by 50 points (a measure taken to five decimal places) against the GBP.

I’m sure that it may have done at some point, but by the same measure, the GBP has dropped by some 727 points against the Euro since close of play on Friday afternoon.

If you want to know how to convert rates of exchange, just ask.
273

ochone,

Sauchie, Clacks 16/02/2009 15:57:21
It's one of those days when at least one of us Nats should thank the unionist contributers for their help towards our cause and also to say, please do keep refusing to tell readers which party you lend your vote too, so thanks, and welcome back Conan.
274

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 16:00:15
#322 The informed voice of reason: Aye maybe so, but still you shouldn't be saying such downgrading things about the people who live there.

I've been to Glasgow and have met many friendly Glasweigens.
I've been to Dundee and I've met many lovely Dundioans.
I've been to Edinburgh and have met many decent Edinburgers.

I could pretty much go on like this about most places I've been to in my life.

275

British flag,

16/02/2009 16:06:05
328. Have you ever been to England!
276

The ex Pat,

16/02/2009 16:10:56
Pants down should mind his own business.
277

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 16:22:04
325 Cynicus in Exile,16/02/2009 16:08:04

"291 Cynicus in Exile,16/02/2009 14:26:02
Mind you, you haven't been around that long.
Who were you in May, 2008?
====================================================

Untrue I was Rufus in May 2008 as well."-#299, Rufus–T–Firefly


PROVE IT.
=================================================

Cynicus in Exile,16

I will have a check and come back to you.


278

Rufus–T–Firefly,

16/02/2009 16:38:03
Cynicus in Exile,16
I will have a check and come back to you."-#,Rufus–T–Firefly,16/02/2009 16:22:04
Excellent.
You showed yourself adept at pulling out an ancient quote by another poster a week or two back. Retrieving your own should not challenge a Marxist of your calibre.
====================================================

Yes but thats me doing a search on comments I remembered.

You cannot easily do a date search.

I am still looking.
279

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 16:43:31
#324 Butcher’s Apron

Have you ever been to England!

Amongst other foreign places I have lived and worked in England.

By and large I found the natives there to be relatively benign, and have no particular grievance generally against them personally, their customs, morals or outlook upon life.

I could say the same about the Germans, French, Swedish, Norwegians, Irish and Hungarians I have lived amongst.

However, if anything, my experience of living and working abroad has reinforced by belief that we should have an independent Scottish voice in the world.

“Stop the World, we want to get on”

280

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 16:44:10
332 You are usually very efficient at digging out old posts. Just use your usual skills to retrieve some of yours. Come on, don't be shy.

281

zeitgeist,

16/02/2009 17:02:52
This is yet more piffle from a self-serving 'lord'. He knows nothing of Scotland or the Scots and one day soon we will not be subject to this nonsense.
282

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:04:22
333. Call me "Butchers Apron" again and i will stuff the saltire up your ar=e! Have some respect.
283

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 17:11:46
#336 Ho Butcher's Apron
do you know why the sun never set on the British empire??
Because god could not trust the Unionists in the dark of course!!!
284

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:13:16
Paddy ashdown was brough up in Northern Ireland,so the guy knows what he's talking about!
285

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 17:15:51
Actually from the threads you can sense that even the most rabid Vichy Scots and British twits like Butchers Apron on here are losing heart .
must be a lot like Adolf's Bunker in No10 just now , all the sycophants too scared to tell the looney what everyone knows .
As the famous song goes "the Party's over....time to call it a day"
The Party in this case being the Labour Party
286

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:15:51
337. Your so big and strong with a keyboard between me and your ar=e,or maybe you want the saltire up your jacksie!
287

TWC,

16/02/2009 17:16:14
338 British flag,

C'mon the guy's a plonker, he ever made any progress in the uK because nobody listened to him.
288

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:17:04
339. No one is "losing heart" except the nats!
289

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:18:25
341. And they listen to clegg!
290

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 16/02/2009 17:18:49
#336 Butcher’s Apron

Respect requires to be earned.

This is not the first time you have threatened me with violence.

I am pure dead feart so I am! Lol
291

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 17:19:30
Hey Butchers apron , do not make promises your body cannot keep.
you were probably bitch slapped throughout your school days no reason to believe it would change now
.after all I do not imagine you are long out of school ..say an hour?
292

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:21:11
345. LOL! @ 35,and 6' 3'' would you like to give it a go!
293

TWC,

16/02/2009 17:22:04
343 British flag, true but there again the Libdems always pick the Tame candidate in case the break loose and implement one of the ideas they always float but never implement viz Federalism & Fiscal Autonomy.

They never finalised the proposal and they'v championed it since I was 8 abit 50 odd years ago.

294

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:22:21
That's the trouble with you scots all mouth and little else!
295

TWC,

16/02/2009 17:22:45
346 British flag, Short Ar$e
296

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:23:51
347. Can't argue with that,but one day,maybe!
297

,

16/02/2009 17:24:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
298

British flag,

16/02/2009 17:25:47
349. Don't tell me your 5'4''!
299

TWC,

16/02/2009 17:29:17
352 British flag

On here everybody is 6' 5" and hard as nails but come up to Hamden any time we play England.

I've always found those who talk about it are too late taking action.
300

,

16/02/2009 17:32:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
301

Enigma,

16/02/2009 17:33:09
Bring on a Scottish referendum, and one for England too.
302

TWC,

16/02/2009 17:34:50
354 Rodster

I think his true feelings are not far under the skin, but I wouldn't insult his womenfolk.
303

Walter MacMitty,

16/02/2009 17:36:26
The SNP will hold their referendum when they said they would and will win a resounding yes vote.

The union is soon to be dead, you may say its months are numbered.
304

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 17:40:32
322

Hi ochone, tweet tweet ;-)

329 and 331

Get your own moniker please.



305

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 17:40:52
Au contraire ,TWC I was complementing them on their taste .
306

The Master,

16/02/2009 17:41:39
Dear oh dear oh deary me! How sad for the Na*z that their nationalism seems to be every bit as controversial in Scotland as in Northern Ireland.

Come the *rigged* consultative referendum question, I'm convinced that many will take one look at the division that's being stirred up, conclude that a separate Scotland could only collapse into vicious squabbling and say "f**k it!

Is the Master right or is the Master right!
307

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 17:48:38
336
Somebody who sounds a lot like Highland Mighty.

No, you have some respect for the Scots soldiers who have died in the Middle-East since 1991.(your post 320)
308

Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 17:50:21
346. Intellectual and physical pygmy
309

Stan Butler,

16/02/2009 17:50:39
#275 frank mcbride

Fat N'Eck and his Goon Show won't want to have a referendum because they know they will lose and they are smart enough to realise that a no vote put the question off the agenda for a generation. Fat N'Eck has said so himself.

The fact that there was a commitment in their manifesto to hold a referendum is neither here nor there. They've broken other commitments so this will hardly set a precedent.

As for whether there should be a referendum, I'm all for it, but subject to the wording of the question being agreed.

The Gnat's proposed procedure is of course nonsense.

Their idea is to have a referendum on whether they should have the authority to negotiate leaving the Union. They then negotiate the terms and the Scots are stuck with whatever deal they come up with, no matter how bad. There's no opportunity to vote on the actual settlement terms. That's not just nonsense, it's nonsense on stilts.

310

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 17:52:40
360
Master

You were more fun as kimba.
311

Sanny,

16/02/2009 17:54:25
182 Publius,London 16/02/2009 12:37:52
I see from the address you are from London and therefore my experience tells me you are most likely to be totally ignorant of Scotland and this is more or less proven by your comments.

I suggest you download a copy of the GERS and then read Niall Aslen’s deconstruction and analysis of the same reports. They might enlighten you on Scottish economics.

As for your report that Finland and Sweden are building Nuclear Plants, that is entirely their decision, it is not a decision being forced on them by a foreign power.

As a young Engineer having spent some 12 years working for the UKAEA in the 60’s I am now more than happy that Scotland (all Party’s not just the SNP) has rejected Nuclear power. Believe me it IS unsafe and VERY expensive. Just think of the cost of tens of thousands of years storing a lethal waste. Further, as the proliferation of Nuke power stations increase so will the demand for Uranium – a very limited resource. The easy stuff is already gone. Watch the price rise. It is also worthy of note that it has to be imported leaving your country at risk of loss of supply.

Now here’s s suggestion for you: - Why don’t the English Government put a very large Nuclear station on the site of Battersea Power Station, after all that would reduce the transmission losses. It would also concentrate the minds of your fellow Londoners
312

Edward Cullen Skink,

16/02/2009 17:55:59
364. But not much.....

Hey, Wufus is also posting from teeside

hehehe, see he is bleating further up about everyone laughing at him yesterday...
313

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 18:00:32
#338 British flag: Whats Northern Ireland got to with Scotland?

I really don't get the comparsion. Please explain!!

I grew up in Scotland and I have no idea what it would be like to have growen up in Northen Irealand and would never dream of claiming that I knew what the people of Northen Ireland want.
314

Questions,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 18:04:12
Paddy Ahdown was to be fostered on the Afghans and they rejected him completely.

Now Paddy attempts to foster himself on what is the best course for the people of Scotland.

Scottish people will have the same opinion as the Afghans.

Go away.
315

The Master,

16/02/2009 18:12:30
#367 Eve: "#338 British flag: Whats Northern Ireland got to with Scotland?"

In NI, the Nats (ie Sinn Fein) have finally had to concede that the people of the province just don't want a united Ireland. Similarly, it's about time the Nats in Scotland conceded that their separation agenda is at least as controversial in Scotland, if not more so.

To this end, I say bring on a separation referendum, but let it be set by Westminster so that it can settle the matter conclusively through a fair and unloaded question. The Master has spoken!
316

Astonished,

Inverclyde 16/02/2009 18:14:45
Mr Ashdown is selling his book and running this story means the Hootsmon has less space to fill and thus can avoid reports about labour corruption, avarice and incompetence. They can also avoid reports confirming westminster dirty tricks, aimed against Scotland, in the 1970s.

I am pleased Stan Butler aka "Alex the Dalek" is for a referendum - "As for whether there should be a referendum, I'm all for it, but subject to the wording of the question being agreed."

Stan (Alex)I would like to know if you knew about the westminster dirty tricks in the 70s ? And do you feel any labour politician should have any role in the referendum given their history of vote rigging ?


Finally take a lesson from history - Just ignore Ashdown.
317

TWC,

16/02/2009 18:17:52
369 The Master,

Let's just ask

Do you want Scotland to be Indepndent of the United Kingdom and NI

Yes or No
318

,

16/02/2009 18:18:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
319

Rodster,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 18:20:22
#369 Oh Master Bater you are the funniest guy on here.
Let Westminster set the question so it can be fair ... ha ha ha ha ha Ha . got to go and lie down for a while my sides are hurting from laughing.
and just to upset you more the Province will go into a United Ireland before you know it , in less than one generation the minority will be the majority ,and gusee what ?
UK will just be Engerlund and Wales . no seat on security council .
will have to sit in UN beside UAE and ,Uzbekhistan no aircraft carriers , no WMD, nobody listening , just a little nonentity of a country with no natural resources ,will just have to blame the Welsh for all the subsidies
320

Walter MacMitty,

16/02/2009 18:22:23
Paddy Ashdown is a unionist, i rest my case.

Whereas Alex Salmond is a true supporter of Scotland, he will use every inch of his time to garnish the main course of referendum. I rest my case.

SNP are good.
321

Walter MacMitty,

16/02/2009 18:24:31
Look at Alex Salmond's new appointments. He has 3 fresh pairs of legs up both his sleeves. That totally makes sense to me.
322

The Master,

16/02/2009 18:28:56
#371 TWC:

Do you want Scotland to be Indepndent of the United Kingdom and NI

Yes or No

You're taking the Michael! What is it about me that makes you think I'm a Nat? There again, I'm as mortified as when someone once asked if I was gay (that particular individual, a Nat as it happens, was subsequently with death threats!)
323

The Master,

16/02/2009 18:32:03
#373: Rodster: there is substantial support amongst the Catholic Community in NI for remaining in the UK; this has been proved by poll after poll and referendums that show support for remaining in the UK to be larger than the Protestant population.

A united Ireland's not going to happen, it's as simple as that!
324

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 18:40:32
#363, Stan Butler.

The only thing that will prevent a Referendum will be the Unionist majority in the SP.

If it was Constitutionally possible, the Referendum question would be a straight YES/NO.
As the SNP believes in Constitutional Democracy, the above option is not possible, by Act of the SP, as presently constituted.

It is, however, possible by Act of the Westminster Parliament.

Why, do you think that Westminster will not ask the question? This is especially intriguing when the Unionist politicians, in that place, believe that there will be a resounding NO vote.
325

Derick fae Yell,

The rainy hoose 16/02/2009 18:48:18
8 Forward not back

"My only point would be a little more honesty. For the SNP supporters to pretend that financial nirvana lies in independence is as fundamentally disingenuous as the likes of Rufus claiming that Scotland would be a third world country."

Sensible comment. But...It's no aboot da money.

It's aboot...difficult ta define, but it's mair ta do wi self-respect, respect, self-belief, can do, no cannae dae!

It's why Iceland will do so much better as Titanic Britain. And why Scottish Independence (and THAT INCLUDES SHETLAND, DAMMIT) is essential.

cheers



326

The Master,

16/02/2009 18:51:16
#378 McBride: "Why, do you think that Westminster will not ask the question? This is especially intriguing when the Unionist politicians, in that place, believe that there will be a resounding NO vote."

It was reported in the Sunday Times at the time of Wendy's "Bring it On" outburst that the real reason for Brown's antipathy is that she scuppered secret plans by Westminster to hold a snap referendum poll.

I'm of the opinion that this may yet happen but, as David Cameron has said, it's asking for trouble to hold it at a time of economic dislocation and when the PM's popularity has hit an all time low. A matter of this importance can't be allowed to be used as a protest vote against Labour nationally.
327

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 19:29:51
380 the big ditherer Macavity to hold a ''snap referendum poll'' ? Aye right. He didn't even have the bottle to hold a GE which would have ensured his succession from Blair was ratified by the electorate. What makes you think he has suddenly grown the cajones to call a referendum ?

There is only one reason why the unionist alliance will block a referendum (and they have the numbers to do it) they don't think they will win.
328

Conan the Librarian™,

16/02/2009 19:30:38
381

Conan the Liarbrarian. Why that's just hilarious.

Have you any more like that? I'm taping my sides up as a precaution.
329

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 19:34:22
377 what happens in Ireland is up to the Irish. I wish you wouldn't conflate two issues which are separate.
330

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 19:39:01
#369 The Master: Sorry, is that supose to make sence.

It still does explain things all that well. People who compare Scotland to Northen Irealand are underestmating the Scots and the people of Northen Ireland.

Sure there are similarities but a Scot like me can not claim to know how the people of Northern Ireland feel about the union. And a northen Irish person can not claim to know how the Scots feel about the union.

Scotland is a nation and exists as a whole in the union at present so it's a simple case of all was forced in at the same time (302years ago) and all leave at the same time because we are united with our strong feelings towards our Scottishness.

With Northern Ireland it is diffrent it's not a full nation, and has also been in the union with England for a much longer time than Scotland (may hunderds more).
Whither or not it one day becomes a nation in it's own right or rejions the rest of Ireland is up to the people who call Northen Ireland home.

Why oh why can unionist stop compareing Scotland to Northern Ireland?
331

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 19:39:13
363 Stan you're looking at this from a unionist perspective. How on earth do you think the SNP could explain to their supporters that they weren't going to call a referendum. Think about it, it's nonsense. They will put forward the bill, whether the Parliament passes it or not will be up the the Parliament. But if we look at recent events I see no indication that there is any dithering coming from Salmond, quite the contrary.
332

Truely English,

16/02/2009 19:41:25
What a great time I had at New Year wearing the Kilt and all I can say is it made me proud to be British and to think it was an Englishman who invented the small kilt; how extra ordinary. The Scots regiments were after all crucial during the British Raj in India and what is today Pakistan and Bangladesh.

As regards a referendum, it is not possible to envision that Scotland would want to break its cultural ties with England as we are all part of one big happy family watching the same television programmes and enjoying the same variety of sport.
333

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 19:46:15
387 You still haven't learned how to spell your own name yet ?
334

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 19:49:15
#378 frank mcbride,lusitania: Cause it's like what Tom Shields once wrote in the Sunday Hearld.

"That deep down in side every Scot would love for Scotland to be independent but are feart"

They cannae take the chance that the people of Scotland may be having a day where their just no feart of the lies that the union tells them.

Also the unionist don't appear to trust their fellow unionist.
335

,

16/02/2009 19:51:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
336

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 19:55:23
Opps the question in my comment number #385 should really have read:

Why oh why cann't unionist stop compareing Scotland to Northern Ireland?

I missed out n't so it made the meaning diffrent from what I ment, sorry about that.
337

Observer,,

Glasgow 16/02/2009 20:26:29
392 You can tell the difference ?

In fairness ''our'' soaps are just as bad. Soap is for washing, not watching.
338

 sm753,

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/ 16/02/2009 20:29:52
365

"I suggest you download a copy of the GERS and then read Niall Aslen’s deconstruction and analysis of the same reports. They might enlighten you on Scottish economics."

It's a pity Aslen mucks up some serious work by getting the Scottish share of North Sea revenue wrong (it's 83%, not 95%).

I'm just writing up a piece on this at

http://nat-mythbusting.blogspot.com/
339

Tartan Viking,

16/02/2009 20:41:47
Unbelievable to take heed from anything said by Paddy Pantsdown. "Bring it on". Ha ha ha. Was that what his 'lover' said to him when he dropped his standards? Ho ho ho.
340

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 20:44:46
#380, AMeister2.

Yes, of course, how could we all have missed it???

Brown was going to be pro-active, but couldn't make up his mind!!!

That explaination is straight out of the AM2 book of double-think.

Another example:

We just can't have a Referendum in the present economic climate!!!

Why, then, didn't we have it when Ms Alexander said, "Bring it on!!!"

Was it:

a) Ms Alexander was too honest about Brown's "secret"plan?

b) The Unionist Alliance has no belief that it would win?

c) That Brown knew we were heading for this economic disaster, and thought that this would put paid to the movement towards Independence?

d) You are spinning like the whirling dervish that is AM2?

e) A combination of all the above?

AMeister2, a civilised response, rather than your usual bluster, would be appreciated.
341

Stan Butler,

16/02/2009 20:50:58

Do the SNP expect the electorate to vote yes without knowing the basis on which Scotland would leave the Union, without even knowing for instance whether Scotland would be allowed to join the EU?
342

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 20:51:06
#395 Tartan Viking: A dinnae ken!!!

Why do you and some others call Paddy that?
343

Eve,

Scotland 16/02/2009 21:00:05
#397 Stan Butler: Why do you suggest that us Scots don't know the meaning of independence? If we didn't know what it was why would we campaign for the right to vote and yes most polls show that Scots want the right to vote in a referndum which offers independence as an opion. It's been highly puplised.

I belive these are old questions your asking, Brussel offisals have allready said unoffisally that there would no reason why Scotland would be denied membership of the EU.

The true question in regards to the EU is will the EU be whats right for Scotland a question that can only be answered once Scotland has become an independent nation again and starts negosating.
344

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/02/2009 21:04:17
All this for a free plug for Ashdown's wee autobiography?

His publicist must know how easy it is to manipulite the unionist press in Scotland - eh no, David Maddox?
345

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 16/02/2009 21:07:15
re 404. manipulite = manipulite. It is a word meant to show how shallow those who would be manipulated are.
346

puskas,

East kilbride 16/02/2009 21:18:27
No377 The Master...

During a visit to Belfast on a Scotland FA Youth International double header I was booked into accomodation by the Irish Tourist board.
Crocus Street, Belfast in the Falls.
My 5 day trip was enjoyable and it let me enjoy much debate each evening after my travels throughout Antrim daily.
I can assure you that the Nationalist always believe and talk about all Ireland..
Of course due to being in the minority their wishes are subdued.
The history of what is called Ulster has Englands bloody hand covering the whole of this part of Ireland..
I personally have never met a nationalist in my travels who wishes to be part of a British State.
347

puskas,

East kilbride 16/02/2009 21:25:04
No400. Eve.

Your last paragraph is correct. Scotland and its Government would hopefully after debate with the Scottish people have a referendum on the EU..

Of course Independence shall be won and whatever else to be secondary.
348

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 21:33:00
I see, again, after losing the debate, the Unionist wreckers are out to close the thread.

Shame on them!!! Even more shame on the Union that they purport to defend by using these tactics!!!
349

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 16/02/2009 21:33:18
Whatever one might think about Paddy Ashdown give the man his due as someone who had the courage, real courage, to stand up and fight for his country.

I for one agree with him - its time we called these national seperatists bluff so "bring it on" asap.

Stop Nationalist Propaganda once and for all I say.
350

frank mcbride,

16/02/2009 21:34:46
#415, AMeister2.

Go back to your blog and revel in oblivion.
351

frank mcbride,

lusitania 16/02/2009 21:38:00
#417, LfL.

I would love to have a simple YES/NO Referendum.

However, this will not happen at the behest of the Westminster Unionist Alliance.
352

,

16/02/2009 21:42:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
353

dude,

wishy 16/02/2009 22:14:52
417 Liberal for life, Dunblane 16/02/2009 21:33:18

Whatever one might think about Paddy Ashdown give the man his due as someone who had the courage, real courage, to stand up and fight for his country.

I for one agree with him - its time we called these national seperatists bluff so "bring it on" asap.

Stop Nationalist Propaganda once and for all I say.


The National Seperatists as you so lovingly call them, would that be the 38% for plus the 22% undecided would it, i would call them all patriots to their beloved Scotland and not to a forced marriage for the benefit of the bigger half of the useless union
354

dude,

wishy 16/02/2009 22:19:22
i would think that at 38% for and 40% against the other 22% undecided but must be on the side of independance and are waiting for the right conditions to vote yes, the more these corrupt unionists see how much support there is for independance the more dirty the fight will be, so good on the 22% for keeping it close to their chests, tell them nothing, IT'S TIME, well it will be late 1010, let the unionists vote it down, there will be an election soon after and we will have our say one way or another.
355

Tris,

16/02/2009 22:27:25
~68. Good post Vivas.

It seems that the Liberals and Labour want to see Scotland governed badly.

I guess that's not hard imagine. Look at what they did for 8 years when it was their job.

Paddy's out of touch by miles, even from his own party it would seem.
356

lulach mac gille coemgain,

16/02/2009 22:56:20
This History stuff ? Since the Frenchy, Vikingy, Picti, Scots let the New Germans in the 18th century take over our Union with our Frenchy, Vikingy southern neighbours that had successfully integrated with the first and second round of German, Romany inhabitants the union has never really worked the same. So lets split away and let them grow more Africany, Asiany East/West Indiany and we grow more Asian, Eastern Europeany and things just might get better !
357

redcliffe62,

brisvegas 16/02/2009 23:34:31
The problem for the Unionists as a whole in Scotland is that with Brown's demise they do not have a credible alternative in many seats.
So, particularly in the West of Scotland, they either have to cop labour's disasters and support them through gritted teeth, or jump off the wagon completely and hope that enough libs and tories get over the line to make them appear to be a voice representing a fair percentage of the population.
I can see a scenario where liberals and tories pull out of competing directly in certain seats, on the basis that the other party pulls out in other seats, so that the unionist vote is not split. Depending on what happens in next 6 months, I can even see labour pulling out of standing in some highland seats so that their vote can (hopefully) go to another unionist party.
after the charades of stopping the SNP at all costs in the 1970's, (not that this journal covers an issue of curent national importance with the main quisling still being linked to Brown), i think a contrived and barely secret plan will be considered to stop the SNP getting 30 of the 59 seats that scotland has now been limited to.
Based on the voting patterns i have looked at, and please understand this is very tentative, it is not impossible for the tories and liberals to have 20 seats between them, with labour having approximately 30.
Left as is, the SNP will get more than double that number of seats, and with a reaching of the magic 34% instead of say 30% then seat numbers increase exponentially and the magic 30 which is the catalyst for independence is not an impossibility.
Simply claiming the SNP are bogeymen when the whole country knows the real bogeyman is a fifer may not work this time despite the best efforts of a hostile BRITISH media.
358

Sheilz,

17/02/2009 00:22:17
Is there a case for making a referendum on Scottish Independence one that all voters in the UK can participate in?

I for one would be interested to watch the unionist parties in their full schizophrenic regalia. How would they sell continuation of the union to the English? This really isnt a good time to be trying to persuade them to keep subsidising us Scottish benefit junkies. How many Scots would they alienate (further) by promoting such bare faced lies? How would they keep the two very different campaigns needed to succeed secret from the other? If I were English I would for sure be voting for those damned pesky Scots to be standing on their own two feet having enough of our own to subsidise without that lot.

Personally I think the 30th November would make an excellent Independence Day for Scotland.
359

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2009 00:30:56
387 Truely English
Yes, when I married a Lancashire lass her English uncles and cousins all came to the wedding in kilts. They'd seen and heard the effects that the kilt has on the wimminfolks down there and wanted in on the action too.

I'm sure that once England gains its own freedom from the Treaty of Union we'll still be able to enjoy Morris dancing on the carparks of pubs up and down the land, be enthralled by the goings on in Corrie, Albert Square, and what moves are on the cards for the Beckhams.

During my time living in London I, and the millions of tourists who flock there every year, thoroughly enjoyed the ancient traditions, pomp and ceremony which go back as far as the First World War and maybe even as far back as Queen Victoria's time.
Aye we've all got so much to thank the old queen for, eh?

Scots and Irish regiments fought with distinction on every continent, helping their cousins' 'betters' in England live up to their big talk.
360

livilion,

livingston 17/02/2009 00:38:14
Deja Vu?

The Times
February 14, 2009

Secret plan to deprive independent Scotland of North Sea oil fields

Magnus Linklater and George Rosie

"...Documents detailing secret government plans in the 1970s to prevent Scotland laying claim to North Sea oil have been seen by The Times. They show the extraordinary lengths to which civil servants were prepared to go to head off devolution, which was seen then as inevitably leading to independence.

The proposals included suggesting to Labour ministers, for whom devolution was a manifesto commitment, that progress towards a referendum should be delayed, in the hope that enthusiasm north of the Border would wane.

Treasury officials also advised that the boundaries of Scotland's coastal waters should be redrawn and a new sector created to “neutralise” Scotland's claim to North Sea oil – a step that was taken..."

Extra Regio Territories?

read the rest of the article here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article5728477.ece
361

donald,

glasgow 17/02/2009 08:45:00
Has Bendy had his pantsdown?
362

Eve,

Scotland 17/02/2009 11:57:34
#411 puskas,East kilbride: "No400. Eve.

Your last paragraph is correct. Scotland and its Government would hopefully after debate with the Scottish people have a referendum on the EU..

Of course Independence shall be won and whatever else to be secondary."

Thats good, looking back at my post yeasterday some of them or parts of them appearing a wee bit mangled the day.

 

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