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SNP 'hypocrisy' as it insists on keeping Cabinet papers secret

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Published Date: 19 March 2009
THE SNP has been accused of double standards and hypocrisy over freedom of information after the Scottish Government insisted on keeping its Cabinet discussions secret.
The Nationalists led protests last month against the decision by Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, to ignore a call from the Information Commissioner to publish the minutes of key UK Cabinet meetings in the run-up to the war in Iraq.

But the SN
P has now turned down a request from The Scotsman, made under freedom of information laws, for the release of Scottish Government Cabinet minutes from 10 February, when ministers decided to drop a bill to replace the council tax with a local income tax (LIT).

There is suspicion that the decision was forced through by Alex Salmond, the First Minister, and John Swinney, the finance secretary, against opposition from their colleagues. But the only way any Cabinet split could be proven would be through the publication of the minutes.

However, the reason for the refusal was similar to the one given by Mr Straw – the need for ministers to feel they could hold free and frank discussions.

David McLetchie, the Scottish Conservatives' chief whip, said: "This is a classic case of saying one thing in opposition in Westminster and doing another in government in Edinburgh."

He pointed out that Mr Straw's refusal regarded a matter of national security, while LIT "is hardly in the same league".

Lord Foulkes, a Labour MSP, said: "The hypocrisy and double standards of the SNP is quite staggering."

The Liberal Democrats, who had been in negotiations with the SNP to try to get LIT through Holyrood, also want answers. Mike Rumbles, their chief whip, said: "What are the SNP covering up over LIT? It certainly suggests that there were splits in the Cabinet over dropping LIT."

Refusing The Scotsman's request, the Scottish Government said: "While we aim to provide information when we can, it is important that Cabinet can operate in an environment which allows ministers to have thorough discussion and debate before reaching decisions."

Opponents say the SNP's stance is far removed from its earlier rhetoric.

When Mr Straw made his decision, Angus Robertson, the SNP leader at Westminster, said: "This Cabinet cover-up is typical of the Labour government's attitude to freedom of information."

In addition, 17 SNP MSPs signed a Holyrood motion condemning the decision.

At First Minister's Questions last week, Mr Salmond boasted of his government's greater transparency.

Answering a question from the Nationalist MSP Christine Grahame, he said: "I certainly agree that this government is much more accountable and transparent than the Labour government in London."

A Scottish Government spokesman said: "There is a big difference between these two requests because there are suspicions parliament (Westminster] was misled over Iraq and the only way of seeing if that was true is for the minutes to be published. It was an issue of huge importance and national security."

WHAT NEXT

AS THE Scottish Government has refused to release its Cabinet minutes, an appeal can be made to its most senior civil servant, John Elvidge.

The next appeal would be to Kevin Dunion, the Scottish Information Commissioner. If he tells the Scottish Government to publish, it must either do so or appeal to the Court of Session.

However, if it followed the example of the UK government over the Iraq war Cabinet minutes and simply refused to publish, it would be the Scottish Information Commissioner who would take the issue to the Court of Session.

Appeals can go all the way to the House of Lords.





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1

webwise,

Scotland 18/03/2009 22:15:36
This is a joke right?

Comparing cabinet meetings of the Scottish Government where council funding was discussed with the shocking decision of the Labour Government to refuse to reveal details of how we came to be embroiled in a disastrous conflict that claimed the lives of probably 1 million people.

This paper goes from bad to worse, it really does.
2

webwise,

Scotland 18/03/2009 22:18:52
It isn't a secret that prescription charges will be lowered again, nor is it a secret that the SNP are now on target to achieve 1000 extra police officers.

I have to say it again though, this article is one of the worst examples of The Scotsman's demise of late.
3

RufusT-Firefly,

18/03/2009 22:26:53
OH DEAR.

Double Standards from the SNP.

Who would have believed it?

Well...............probably everybody actually.
4

RufusT-Firefly,

18/03/2009 22:37:06
24th February 2009

"The SNP have renewed calls for the disclosure of Cabinet minutes, following news that Justice Secretary Jack Straw has vetoed the release of minutes of meetings in the run-up to the Iraq war.

SNP Westminster leader and Defence spokesperson, Angus Robertson MP, said:

"This Cabinet cover up is typical of the Labour government’s attitude to freedom of information."
========================================================

What a shower.

It just underlines how the SNP should never be trusted.

"Do as I say Don't do as I do".

Poor Alex Salmond, he has been exposed as an even bigger joke figure than George Galloway was in Celebrity Big Brother.
5

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 00:05:11
Appeals can go all the way to the House of Lords." (The Scotsman)

So, The Scotsman newspaper intends to usurp Scottish Law and a key agreement in the Act of Union that must be held inviolate, by going to the English House of Lords to get a judgment in its favour.

Once more, we see how the conditions and essence of the Union are disregarded and ignored.

6

The Brain,

19/03/2009 00:05:58
The SNP politicians have proven themselves to be just as bad as Labour, who in turn had proven themselves to be just as bad as the Tories.

All politicians are not to be trusted.
7

Incandescent,

19/03/2009 00:15:40
8 - let me guess...Rufus?
8

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 19/03/2009 00:16:41
It's been some time now since I first said that the Labour party in London had decided that it's Scottish troups were useless when it came to facing the SNP government and that they were side-lining them and trying to do the job themselves with the help of their
media pals.

Now we have the Scotsman all but admitting it!

They wanted a freedom of info' request granted, investigative journalism at last, well no, they were trying to set up a story, by compairing what the SNP were dealing with, with H.M. government lying to parliament.

However if they really want to get into doing their job seriously, then there are plenty stories that they could be dealing with.

But they wouldn't like them.

How about one on Lord George for starters?
9

Jock Sport ,

19/03/2009 00:18:42
Embarrased?
10

Vivas,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 00:19:02
"The Scotsman continues to deliver a quality audience, with a high percentage of readers in the ABC1 social grade."
* Circulation: 50,558 (ABC January 2009)

In The Northbrits current condition, it can't be long now surely ?
11

,

19/03/2009 00:26:35
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12

Satire above all,

19/03/2009 00:33:13
If The Scotsman really wants to do the people of Scotland a service via their investigative journalism let them ask the Westminster Govt. for the minutes of the meeting where the Scottish Fisheries Boundary was moved 92 miles north to Cromarty. The SNP Govt here inScotland tried and failed to get any disclosures on this matter, maybe The Scotsman could do better.
13

Vivas,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 00:33:52
Heres the deal then. We'll you OUR minutes if you'll show us YOUR minutes. Fair enough your lardship ?
14

Satire above all,

19/03/2009 00:37:48
Who exactly does this paper represent anyway? English Lords no doubt!
15

Vivas,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 00:39:41
As usual this backfires. The Northbrit hasn't bothered it's sorry ass to do a FOI request on something that really matters, and looks less and less like a newspaper and more and more a propaganda sheet for SLAB.

And The Northbrits much vaunted ABC 50,000 circulation still have enough collective IQ to appreciate that an illegal war with Iraq rather trumps a policy change of course at Holyrood.

All quite pathetic really.
16

Cpt Incredible,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 01:12:17
Sigh..... Another day,another absolutely pathetic attempt to discredit the SNP by that apology for a journalist, Maddox.
Then of course we have the firefly simpleton agreeing.
Nothing changes,it doesn't change with me either,Alex Salmond is still my Hero.
17

Incandescent,

19/03/2009 01:32:15
24 ...and you would be?...
18

,

19/03/2009 01:36:56
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19

,

19/03/2009 01:37:03
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For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 19/03/2009 01:40:35
I remember Michael Hesseltine walking out of a Cabinet meeting because the other members of the Cabinet wouldn't let him speak his mind. Under Maggie Broon, he would have been out the door pronto.
21

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

19/03/2009 01:46:25
What exactly is the Scotsman's legitimate reason for wanting to know what the cabinet discussions on LIT were?
In the case of the war on Iraq, there is the suspicion that the government lied to the public. The only reason the Scotsman want to see the minutes on the Scottish government's meeting about local income tax is because they think it'll expose some disagreement that they can make a fuss about. Do we really need to know about that?
22

W Smith,

Middle East 19/03/2009 01:55:46
Does Salmond suffer from dyslexia?

Braveheart Alex speaks out against the R&A but refuses to condemn the IRA.

What does he think goes on in St Andrews?

1) Murals painted on the side of council houses depicting masked members of the R&A holding AK-47s.

2) SAS soldiers hiding in the local park waiting to ambush a cell of the R&A.

3) No one goes out after dark in case they become victims of a punishment beating at the hands of the R&A.

Its been a while since I have visited St Andrews but, thank God, we have a First Minister who stands up to "tyranny", eh Saeed?
23

Edward,

19/03/2009 02:04:02
ah the Scotsman doing its best to smear on behalf of Labour - pathetic!
24

2Right,

On Location 19/03/2009 03:42:16
Crown Office and Law Society should not be exempt from FOI's Either.

Frank Mulholland has denied people evidence used to convict them for years without any redress by the accused.

Holland & Sinclair should come into this matter yet is ignored by Crown Office, who Cherry Pick the evidence they release.
25

2Right,

On Location 19/03/2009 03:45:42
Try asking for any criminal trial transcript and see the answer.

££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

Yet the Kenny Richey one in America is online free for all the world to see and download.

America seems far in advance of us though eh ?

They get access to all evidence against them while we are denied everything.
26

FerryPort,

19/03/2009 04:15:48
lets take what is ours
27

,

19/03/2009 05:52:44
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19/03/2009 05:57:20
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29

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19/03/2009 06:10:58
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30

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19/03/2009 06:16:52
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31

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19/03/2009 06:28:14
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32

donald anderson it's me,

glasgow 19/03/2009 06:37:30
And the Northbritshperson wonders why it is losing loyal readers.
33

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 06:52:27
The SNP administration are absolutely correct not to release minutes of their cabinet meetings. Our democracy relies on ministers being allowed to be able to speak freely and confidentially.
That is true of any cabinet. It was a nonsense to demand minutes of the UK government cabinet and it is a nonsense to ask for the Scottish Executive's.
The fact that the SNP were stupid enough to play politics withg this and find it blowing up in their faces only goes to show how politically naive and inept they are. Essentially a single-issue campaign unfit for government.
34

Angleland Isover,

19/03/2009 06:58:53
The N.B.Man wants to use its resources to uncover why we really sent our countrymen into an illegal war. Now that would be a shock. Why be a journalist and avoid journalism.
35

Jingo,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 07:11:24
Wanting to see papers from a few years ago and some from a few weeks ago is hardly the same thing. No Government would ever release papers after such a short time.
36

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 19/03/2009 07:15:11
Last month I argued that it was entirely right and sensible for the UK government to keep cabinet discussions secret. The nationalists suggested otherwise. What is your position now, bampots?
37

Ananurhing,

19/03/2009 07:28:53
Hootsman hypocrisy as it insists on defending UK cabinet secrecy (over decisions on an illegal aggressive war), whilst attacking the Scottish Govt for normal cabinet protocol.

Mad dog alert! The Hootsman and its arch defender of the union are becoming increasingly desperate in their attempts to undermine the country's democratically elected govt, and reinstate the old neocolonial guard.
Their fear/siege/bunker mentality is palpable. You can smell it.

Spurious headlines, specious polls, postal votes in the bin, Lard Foulkes! Can there be anything left to scrape from the bottom of their barrel?
Unblushing subservience is as unblushing subservience does!
38

,

19/03/2009 07:31:10
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39

Esox Hunter,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 07:34:48
#41 Do you actually buy the Scotsman or do you content yourself with making half ass comments via this thread. Like most quality papers the Scotsman has lost circulation because of the changes in technologies which have allowed people to access news in so many diffeent ways. The Scotsman is still a superb newspaper when compared with what else is on offer out there.

As for the subject under discussion Salmond has been exposed as being a politically inept one man band, who rides roughshod over those in his cabinet who even think about disagreeing with him. The Scotsmans request for release of the cabinet was perfectly reasonable given the SNP's howls of complaint regarding Jack Straw's decision. The situations are quite different however and not in the way some people have suggested. One was in relation to national security whilst the other was only in relation to a tax proposal for Gods sake, highly embarassing for Salmond of course but hardly important in the whole scheme of things.
40

,

19/03/2009 07:38:51
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41

TWC,

Ex Labour 19/03/2009 07:52:18
51 Rulesbutnotrulers,
I can't believe you( a liberal Unionist) would side with this Labour rag of a newspaper. The LIT arguement is nothing when compared to the the absolutely illegal activity practiced by Labour.
Iraq, WMDs and even CivilServants and MPs lying to their own people.
Try asking Labour what happened to the Civil Servants involved in misleading the people it works for in the 70s and you won't get an answer.
We should change the name from Civil Service to to Civil Deceipt Service.
42

The Brain,

19/03/2009 07:53:16
The SNP have a track record of stirring up muck, even when they know they are being unfair.

Having some discretion in government is acceptable. The SNP, of course, are not mature or professional enough to admit this when they are opposing. Instead, they make unfair allegations of corruption and imply wrong doing in the full knowledge they are also discrediting their profession.

It is only fair that unfair accusations are now levelled at the SNP by the public, the media and opposition at Holyrood. It is not acceptable to have inconsistent standards in any profession.

The SNP should be forced to eat their words.
43

Thrawn,

UK 19/03/2009 08:06:11
"Lord Foulkes, a Labour MSP, said: "The hypocrisy and double standards of the SNP is quite staggering."

Hold on: isn't our present national Labour government refusing to release the Cabinet minutes on the deliberations on going to war with Iraq?

A question of pots calling kettles black here.
44

Gdgy,

19/03/2009 08:06:56
So the SNP have picked up the mannerisms, faults and actions of a government...open, transparent government?.....another principle ditched...
45

Ananurhing,

19/03/2009 08:09:55
#51 Rools

I seem to remember you defending cabinet secrecy. What's changed?
46

Phil C,

19/03/2009 08:09:59
I don't see why cabinet papers shouldn't be published. The SNP should change their stance but that's another matter. The only hypocrisy here is the attitude of Fatty Foulkes for Fibbour (li,ebour any strangely banned!) and Taxi for McLetchie and the Tories.

It is in the national interest and importance to hear exactly what made our secretive government start their illegal war, even if the rest of their worthless burblings are kept secret forever.
47

SNP hypocrisy,

19/03/2009 08:11:21
21. Spook in Leith, I have no interest in your blog. I was however understanably interested in what you were saying about me there. I've read it and don't care.

I am however interested in subrosa's post about Libertas which I just read on a Tory bloggers blog. Odd place to find subrosa aka spook you'd think? The 19 March 08:06 posting there is mine.

http://tinyurl.com/toryblog

Very interesting though, I'm thinking that I'll vote Libertas myself if they are on the ticket. Weird days indeed to find me in agreement with a Tory and possibly a Nat on anything. Hmmm...
48

Phil C,

19/03/2009 08:11:44
~57 sorry "li,ebour is strangely banned"
49

Phil C,

19/03/2009 08:15:31
#56 Ana

Rulesbutnobrains is a well known flip-flopper. He just supports anything against the SNP. Bit like our great free press!
50

greenhill,

19/03/2009 08:15:56
If the SNP will not release much lower level information with regard to local income tax discussions why should they expect Labour to release much higher level records over discourse about going to war?

The SNP are at it,what a bunch of stinking hypocrites.
Salmond more and more resembles Robert Maxwell:an unctuous,lardbag dictator.I think it is about time he went on a boat trip.
51

TWC,

19/03/2009 08:20:12
The SNP and Labour should come to an agreement and release both sets of Cabinet minutes.
I don't remember the Hoots mon pushing for the Westminster Cabinet minutes on Iraq, but they are on this wee topic.
52

Queen D,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 08:24:56
If I were part of the SNP government ,I would withhold every scrap of information from this brazenly biased paper.
I have bought this paper in the past , I stopped buying it many years ago.It has nothing to do with technological advances that it is going down the Swanee and a great deal to do with it becoming a unionist , Labour mouthpiece.
No investigative journalism just SNP = BAD LABOUR/CONS/even LIBS =GOOD.
One really should look to ones client base because biased drivel is no way to run a business successfully.
53

,

19/03/2009 08:25:31
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54

TWC,

Ex LAbour 19/03/2009 08:31:19
63 Queen D,
I'm finding myself at odds with a lot of things. The other day Unite and Unison held a demo at parliament at Holyrood for Charities & Voluntary sector well I'm not going to give anything to charities until these Unions take on Westminster to get more money given to Scotland.
Barnett is a rip off and can't possibly give more to Scots
Look at the French Unions that's what our Unions should be doing instead of being part of the Political Party.
55

GrahamH,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 08:32:41
Be interested to see the Cabinet notes when SNP did their U Turn and allowed tram scheme to go ahead.
56

Ananurhing,

19/03/2009 08:34:33
#61 Phil C

I believe he also purports to being a psuedo anarchist/federalist, but constantly defends a remote westminster government.
57

Phil C,

19/03/2009 08:34:54
Why is there a question here? Of course there would be voices for LIT in cabinet. It was (and still is) a major policy. To postpone it was bound to be controversial within the party.

What causes a problem is the spin that the media and opposition put on truthfulness and honesty. You know, the "u-turns", "broken promises", "weak leadership" etc..... I don't have a problem with that and I think the voters would welcome a clean sweep despite this medie negativity.

All current secretive practices in Scotland were put in place by Labour so they don't have a leg to stand on. The SNP should take this opportunity to make government more transparent. I'm sure the opposition would oppose though- bumbling hypocrites that they are!


58

,

19/03/2009 08:34:56
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59

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 08:42:49
In circumstances where Labour are able to "count coup" at the expense of the Nationalists why does someone like the less than credible Lord George Foulkes have to go and spoil it for his party?



60

Alan B,

19/03/2009 08:58:57
It is amusing to see labour posters try to justify labours position.

The argument over releasing cabinet papers in relation to the war is due to the serious nature of many issues and events round it and many of the consequences.

If Blair had not been caught lying so much the situation would be different.

Putting aside the debate on whether the war was correct or not what we have not seen before during a war is a government being so dishonest. in the first gulf war there was not real question of government manipulation and lying. They simply thought it was the right thing to do and acted accordingly (rightly or wrongly).

With Blair we have had dodgy docs etc, deceipt over Kelly, deceipt over 45 mins wmd claims, and blair not showing the cabinet the full legal argument over the war but a doctored one without alot of caviats over the legality.

As such releasing cabinet papers over the war should happen as part of the investigation into government lies and deceipt.

As many of the press said at the time there was not need for blair to make the link with sadam and wmd such a defining issue. There were good reasons for getting rid of sadam anyway. Blair used the whole wmd and dodgy 45mins claims to convince a sceptical labour party on the merits of this war.

There is a big difference from publishing cabinet mins in this situation to try to get the whole debacle out in the open and a run of the mill publishing of cabinet mins.
61

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 19/03/2009 09:00:38
"SNP Blamed for Labour"

Same difference.
62

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 09:07:23
If we look behind all the bombast and blether from the nationalist posters we are left with a fairly simple situation.
The SNP demanded that the UK government should publish its cabinet minutes.
When asked to publish their own, the SNP declined.
The SNP are fine as a protest group, as an administration they are unfit for purpose and quite frankly a bit of an embarrassment.
63

walter,

19/03/2009 09:09:50
#35
An SNP government will immediately abolish
prescription charges for people with chronic health conditions.
I bet those with chronic illnesses will be happy to know that their prescription charges are going down.
What was the promise the SNP made to them in their manifesto again,
An SNP government will immediately abolish prescription charges for people with chronic health conditions.
But it was the SNP who made the promise and then broke it so that's alright.
Just like the SNP refusing a FOI request to release minutes of a cabinet meeting on something as trivial as LIT is alright but the UK government refusing a FOI
request on the grounds of national security is wrong.
I wonder how many SNP MSPs will sign a petition against the SG on this one.
None will be the answer as each and every one of them are hypocrites as are those on here who try to defend the indefensible action of those the worship.
64

Farky,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 09:13:36
This is a non story if ever there was one. I couldn't agree more with the first comment above. A reminder of why I refuse to buy the print edition of this paper, or it's Sunday edition. Even if it went bust altogether, I'm not even likely to miss the rubbish that is published online. So anti SNP it's just quite unbelievable.
65

Alan B,

19/03/2009 09:14:56
#Grahamski

I think even you know that is simply not the case. The snp were not asking for cabinet mins to be published as a matter of course.

It is simply that the lies, deceipt and other questions round the war really need to be out in the open. We have never had a government that have been so deceiptful round such a serious issue such as going to war.
66

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 09:15:13

I won't be long before the first electronic bug is found hidden in a Holyrood Parliament office, or Salmond's official residence.

And since all opposition parties are wedded to Westminster rule the chances of them protecting Scotland's interests or exercising diplomacy in its favour are absolutely nil.

As it is everything the SNP say and do is reported by civil servants to Whitehall.
67

The Brain,

19/03/2009 09:16:48
75 Grahamski

Well said. There are only two possible outcomes.

1) The SNP deliberately stir up muck at Westminster. Discrediting themselves, their profession and their opponents unfairly. This is against the ministerial code.

2) The SNP want to subvert and ignore the law regarding releasing information for selfish and partisan reasons.

So there is no point in arguing about how many fairies can dance on a pin-head, the SNP have proven themselves to be as bad as the rest however you look at it.
68

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 09:24:37
"No one goes out after dark in case they become victims of a punishment beating at the hands of the R&A." (Smith)

I had no idea our most respected golf course was so malevolent.

69

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 09:26:11
"The SNP have proven themselves to be as bad as the rest however you look at it." (Brain)

So, what you are saying is, only you are fit to govern since everyone else is unreliable or corrupt.
70

walter,

19/03/2009 09:33:28
#73
As such releasing cabinet papers over the war should happen as part of the investigation into government lies and deceipt.

I would love to see Blair and his cohorts held to account for his and their actions.
But have you ever thought of the bigger picture, those who want the war in Iraq declared illegal by a body that has the authority to do so would use any information they could get hold of to get such a decision.
If the war on Iraq is declared illegal then those who took part in the invasion will have acted illegally,
where would that leave our soldiers, sailors and airmen.
They certainly could not use the defense of following orders could they.
The release of such information would give those who wish to kill maim and destabilize this country another excuse to do so.
Unlike the information of a cabinet meeting to ditch LIT.
71

Number 6,

Gernmany 19/03/2009 09:34:54
Yeah right, if this rag thought they would get any help from the SNP after their constant undermining of the Scottish Goverment they must be a sdeluded as the Labour Party.

The SNP won't be pushed around by anyone. When Westminster grows up and starts dealing with the Scottish Parliment in a mature manner then the SNP may recipocate.

Whatever was in those minutes would have been twisted in the usual laughable manner by this paper, complete with hysterical mock outrage.

No chance, on your bikes.
72

AJM,

19/03/2009 09:35:49
I cannot see why the justification should be about a higher purpose. It was a purpose to persue a political agenda, fair enough.

A similar question of disclosure was asked of another party, the answer was the same.

If you are of the view that Labour refused to answer because they have something to hid and they are therefore the sleazy party. Same applies to the SNP. Can't have it both ways.
73

The Brain,

19/03/2009 09:36:42
82 Los Angeles

No, what I am saying is and in fact what I did say was that the SNP have proven themselves to be as unreliable as the rest however you look at it.

It's all very well to cry foul when in opposition, but then to form a government and not practice what you preach, well, that is as bad as the rest of the political class.

Indeed, in an interview in the Scotsman last year, Nicola Sturgeon openly admitted that she knowingly makes unfair allegations in opposition and will continue to do so in the future.

People like Foulkes, Sturgeon and Labour and the SNP have destroyed the credibility of all politicians. Brown and Salmond compound the matter of credibility by refusing to discipline anyone for their deliberate wrong-doing.

Perhaps you could give me your alternative view if you object to my opinion?
74

noswod,

Honestas 19/03/2009 09:38:28
Ecky the truth is out there. Why can't the people see what its leaders are up to. What is confidential about Democracy. Surely openness is at the heart of a Democracy and a tenet of Scottish enlightenment thinking on how to make Government work in the behest of the people. It’s when the shroud or corpse of secrecy surrounds Govt decision-making then the people should start to get worried, they get cut out of the loop and have no influence over events. Just like Labour and all before them the powerjunkies of the SNP do not wish to have their discussions in public but make decisions in non-smoke or non-drink filled rooms to serve the powermania of egocentrics. We pay for this Government they are supposed to serve the people but secrecy allows politicians to serve themselves. Open free publicly viewed debate in the halls of a senate or cabinet allows citizens to see and participate in what gets done and is politically and socially healthy. Behind closed doors secrecy is the preserve of the Dictator.
75

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 09:41:41
78
Alan,
It is very simple. The SNP called for cabinet minutes to be released and in doing so showed themselves inept in their naivity. How long did they think it would take before their own administration was asked to release documents?
Silly nats, not fit for purpose....
76

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 09:49:01
"Perhaps you could give me your alternative view if you object to my opinion?" (Brian)

I think you are indulging in self-fulfilling waffle. You betray a conceit and a condescention implying only you can see mendacity in our politicians. Almost every Unionist on this thread claims the same insight.

When you condemn all around you, you have a duty to tell us what you would replace the system and those in it with - UKIP? The Born Again Vegeterian Party? The Three Monkeys?

FOr goodness sake, what do you believe in?






77

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 09:49:31
So should all cabinet papers for both Parliaments be released? Surely that would be the fairest and most open way? Trying to conflate LIT over the lead up to Iraq is incredible.

As far as I am aware the SNP did not ask for all cabinet papers to released.

Lord Foulkes do me a faviour the man is an odious numpty that only cares about himself and party.

The Scotsman doing the labour party's attack strategy how original.

78

Miss H,

19/03/2009 09:53:45
88 The SNP have used more or less the exact same wording in refusing to publish their Cabinet minutes as Labour did in refusing to publish the Iraq minutes.

Can you think of a reason why?
79

Miss H,

19/03/2009 09:58:44
80 Do you also think it is a coincidence that the SNP has refused on the same grounds that Labour did?

80

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 09:59:07
88 They the SNP and others called for the release of the cabinet papers about the run up to the the war in Iraq.

You remember the war that was based on a false premise about WMD, and the legallity about the legal advice is still shrouded in fog.

Now as far as I am aware they haven't asked for release of any other documents about other government business.

However if you think that the decisions of going to war in Iraq is on the same level as making a decision on LIT, then you must take the view that all government information from both cabinets must be released.
81

The Brain,

19/03/2009 09:59:57
89 Los Angeles

With no view point I can only assume you are trolling. But as a matter of fact, I did tell you what I would do to change matters. Put pressure on party leaders such as Brown and Salmond to discipline those deliberately playing political games.

If they can't do it, replace them and so on. I don't want to change the parties or the system, I just want to replace the people running the parties and the system until we find people who will impliment existing laws and codes of conduct.

But like I say, without an opinion you are just trolling.
82

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 10:07:00
Put pressure on party leaders such as Brown and Salmond to discipline those deliberately playing political games." (Brian)

But they do do that.

Salmond's first speech to his assembled party MSPs was a warning not to transgress the rules, to be ethical, to serve their constituents well, to respect the Parliament of Scotland, or to take the consequences. he went further, telling them if they did misbehave (my word) they would be doubly punished by press an public becaus more was expected of them than those who had gobe before.

Brown has a more difficult task because corruption is endemic in his party, (as were the Tories after far too many years unopposed rule) and his Glasgow politicians are a Mafia unto themselves. No matter what he states must be their moral compass they look at him, see what he has done, and go about their shady business untroubled.
83

The Brain,

19/03/2009 10:09:00
95 Los Angeles

Talk is cheap, who cares about Salmond's speeches. Blair, Brown and co. all made similair speeches. Talk is cheap. By ye deeds shall ye be known.
84

Doh,

19/03/2009 10:10:51


Lets have a referendum on the release of cabinet minutes.
85

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 10:13:31
"Talk is cheap, who cares about Salmond's speeches." (Brian)

Jeez. It doesn't take much to tease out the prejudices of the shallow. What else does a politician have but speech? Is he going to lecture his troops in Braille? How about Morse Code?

Have you seen the ay he deals with colleagues who don't come up to scratch? they lose their job. Brown brings them back into government, especially if they have a dishonest track-record. They also get rewarded with an earldom.

Are you really, like the idiotic Firefly, intent on trivialising every topic?
86

Alan B,

19/03/2009 10:15:52
#Grahamski

You say it is very simple but then fail to understand the issue. I do not think it is too difficult to understand.

Neither party supports publishing cabinet minutes as a matter of course. Fair enough. You can agree with that or not. Personally i do not see it enhancing government. There are other more important and relevant issues regarding openness and the almost pathetic way mps/msp slavishly follow the party line, the dreadful whip approach to government etc.

However what we are talking about regarding publishing minutes regarding a one off ie the war. Is due to the fact the government got it so wrong. That so much deceipt came from blair and his clique. To what extent the cabinet was mislead. And to what extent brown was so busy positioning himself for power rather than putting principle at the heart of the issue like cook.

I think it does the labour party no favours when supporters like yourself take a labour party right or wrong approach. It is for this reason labour has lost its values and its ethical base.
87

The Brain,

19/03/2009 10:16:43
Los Angeles

I don't have any prejudices. This story is about SNP hypocrisy. You brought up Salmond's speeches, not me.

I merely pointed out a fact to you. That talk is cheap, especially politicians.
88

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 10:19:45
"This story is about SNP hypocrisy." (Brian)

All you have done is expose your own.
89

Number 6,

Germany 19/03/2009 10:24:49
87 Miss H,

The only reason the SNP asked for the release of British Goverment documents was because it was an illegal war, which the British army were taken into, on a wave of lies and deceit.

From the Internet Downloads to the Downing street memo, the whole affair was a national disgrace, which incidentally, has caused the deaths and horrible maiming of hundreds of British Soldiers.

For you to try and equate that with the SNP refusing to co-operate with this clearly unionist "news" paper
is laughable.

90

,

19/03/2009 10:27:37
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91

Number 6,

Germany 19/03/2009 10:34:30
Daily Record Forums back up at last.

They have posted a reason for the months of activity.

Trouble with their "London based" technical team (I kid you not). Over there you can post the topic for conversation, and not just rely on a series of Labour propoganda mantras like some other rpapers I could mention.

They have even moved the forum link back to the top of the front page after it was mysteriously relegated to the small print.

So far only independienties have returned, so as you can imagine, we are having a field day. The Record better hope and pray no Labour Party Official logs on
as they will have a heart attack at the lack of labour propoganda.

Certainly, my version of the Curran comeback will be rather different to the story they will finally print.
92

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19/03/2009 10:34:50
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93

Stan Butler,

19/03/2009 10:35:57

Yet another example of the SNP finding out that politics is a very different game once you are in office.

94

Faux Cul,

19/03/2009 10:36:04
Has Lard FFSake ever been involved at ANY Cabinet meeting which was minuted?

It would be very interesting to read what the igNoble Lord has had to say on any topic within the confines of his buddies.

Can anyone help me out with a possible FOI Cabinet minutes involving his drunken Lordship on anything beyond the malorganisation of pissups?
95

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

19/03/2009 10:36:22
The whole point of this request by the hootsmon was not done for the good of anyone. It was done as they try to manufacture a story suggesting there is a major problem in the SNP cabinet (and not just a difference of opinion). Of course there would have been some frank discussion as the LIT deference decision would not have been taken likely. Given that the MAJORITY in the parliament would never have backed any proposed bill, what interest in the minutes could there be for anybody? An appeal to attempt a forced release would be laughed out for its pettiness.

Still, I have no doubt that it will be raised at FMQ - Gray is so devoid of ideas that the press need to supply his material. I'll watch and grimace as the numpty dependency party representatives desk thump and screech when their idiotic leader spouts forth this planted "attack". PLEASE, FOR SCOTLAND, RAISE YOUR GAME, YOU FECKIN NUMPTIES!
96

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 19/03/2009 10:40:16
Actually they did release the details they just didn't let the scotsman have access to them. Everyone else in the world received a copy of the meeting. They knew the Scotsman were just trying to get more ammunition for the Labour party and then make up some c0k and bull story about them. I wouldn't have given the scotsman the details either...
97

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 10:40:59
The SNP decision not to put this information into the public domain is entirely reasonable and understandable.

It is after all an internal matter of political strategy and taxation policy and does not entail signing death warrants for 100,000 citizens of Iraq.

So what if an internal debate took place in Bute House or wherever on the merits or otherwise of delaying the introduction of LIT?

One would actually hope that such a debate did in fact take place and a consensus position was arrived at.

As far as who said what in this debate is concerned, I cannot see why this should be of any interest to anyone other than those whose motives may be open to question.

The result of the debate is in the public domain, that is surely enough to satisfy all but the most malicious of enquiries.
98

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 10:41:45
This is a ridiculous article as there is no valid comparison between a request to reveal why we as a nation went to war, and the reason why LIT was postponed. As anyone here who took part in the debate will recall, there was no carte blanche demand that minutes of UK Cabinet meetings were published, only the ones which could explain the reason why we went to War. This is incredibly shoddy journalism from the Scotsman, very very poor indeed.
99

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 10:55:12
110 Perhaps the zionists did it ?
100

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 11:04:10
"Yet another example of the SNP finding out that politics is a very different game once you are in office." (Butler)

Another glib comment.

Almost since their inception the SNP has been depicted by the media as a fringe party to be ignored, a bunch of eccentrics, grotesque subversives, misguided academics and poets, romantic historians, thugs and alcoholics, scheming policians, a threat to the stability of Scotland, an attack on the Union, a bunch of rank amateurs, ad nauseam.

What makes you think they are inexperienced in the world of brutal politics now they are in office?

101

Shredder,

19/03/2009 11:05:50
#110 Churchill: I think Spook's response to your invitation for him to let us have his views on the Palestinians' right to self determination, and the knock on implications for his pro Scottish separation stance, about says it all!

Get your finger off the "Report as Unsuitable" button, Spook! As "the Master Ate Media 1" (one of your array of multi moniker trolls) would say:- I CHALLENGE!
102

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 11:08:38
Wow the fake Churchill is vanishing as fast as he can post. The mods are very quick today.
103

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 11:09:03
This is a ridiculous article. There is no valid comparison between a request to reveal why we as a nation went to war, and the reason why LIT was postponed." (Oberver)

It's a low tactic to embarrass.

There is absolutely no pressing public clamour to discover how a decision on delaying LIT was reached, (a united opposition and no start-up finance is all it took) but there IS universal outrage to know how the UK Government managed to get their intelligence so wrong they took our soldiers into Iraq.
104

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19/03/2009 11:13:07
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105

Stan Butler,

19/03/2009 11:14:42

#109 Observer

So the more controversial, the more sensitive and the more important a cabinet decision the more justification there is for publishing the minutes.

That's a good idea.

Have you ever wondered why cabinet discussions are kept under wraps?

Have you ever considered how publishing cabinet discussions would affect cabinet discussions?

Do you think cabinet members might act differently if their contributions are to be published?
106

alanh,

ek 19/03/2009 11:15:52
are the unionists on here now arguing that ALL minutes of ALL cabinet meetings should be kept open in the public domain? or only when its not for their party
Do they think that discussions on LIT are the same as the discussions that have led to many people being killed in Iraq? or is it just the usual hypocrisy of the unionist trolls on here.
You have to question why this "newspaper" has chosen to attack our govt over this. Perhaps they think the quality of opposition MSPs are soooooooo weak that the Scotsman must act as main opposition to our elected govt. That is a very strange position to take but may account for the falling numbers of buyers for it
107

Moonraker007,

19/03/2009 11:17:32
#117 - are you any relation to rufus or AM2?
108

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 11:19:00
116 No Stan. The reasons why I think we were entitled to know the content of the discussions which led to the decision to launch the invasion of Iraq is because of the consequences of that decision.

114 Morning LA - to the best of my recollection the Scottish Government TOLD everyone why they had reached their decision. So it's hardly a secret is it.
109

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 11:20:17
118
The SNP demanded the UK government release minuters of a cabinet meeting then refused to release their own executive cabinet minutes. This utter hypocrisy is the story.
Most people accept that cabinet discussions should be kept secret. The fact that the SNP think they can be in opposition and in power is jaw-dropping in its stupidity.
110

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19/03/2009 11:20:54
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111

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 11:21:39
"Jaw-dropping in its stupidity." (Grahamki)

Not much of a criticism there.
112

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 11:26:15
Morning LA - to the best of my recollection the Scottish Government TOLD everyone why they had reached their decision. So it's hardly a secret is it?" (Observer)

Exactly so, but that doesn't serve the Scotland-haters purpose. Better to create an artificial stooshie (good word) and see how far it runs ...
113

,

19/03/2009 11:26:33
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114

,

19/03/2009 11:33:56
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115

walter,

19/03/2009 11:33:56
The context of the meetings are irrelevant to this.
The simple fact is that the SNP who were so critical of the UK government for not releasing under FOI the minutes of a cabinet meeting yet they themselves have just done the same thing.
There supporters on here who back the SNP on that criticism refuse to accept that the SNP have done exactly what they criticized the UK government for doing and refuse to criticize the SNP government for doing the exact same thing.
How does it go, SNP good and every thing they say and do is right.
Every one else who does not accept the SNPs words and deeds with blind obedience bad and must be attacked fervently.
116

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 19/03/2009 11:36:12
"Lord Foulkes, a Labour MSP, said: "The hypocrisy and double standards of the SNP is quite staggering."

Staggering? That'll be the whisky M'lord.
117

,

19/03/2009 11:37:38
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118

Penicuik Laddie,

19/03/2009 11:42:48
Mr Maddox should really be given his own opinion column and stop masquerading as an impartial journalist
119

Penicuik Laddie,

19/03/2009 11:48:02
Lord Haw Haw Foulkes should know all about hypocrisy and double standards having enthusiastically backed the illegal war in Iraq and Madeline Albright's view when asked about a UN report that US led sanctions had led to the deaths of an estimated 500,000 Iraqi children that "this was a price worth paying". Nice one George!
120

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 11:48:51
123 You will then support all cabinet papers to be released.

The SNP supported release of these specific documents on the build up to the war in Iraq

The Iraq request was sent to the information commisioner who said they should be placed into the public domain because of the subject of the war in Iraq.

Why don't you take in on yourself to raise a request with the Scottish information commisioner to release these papers.
121

Lianachan,

Highlands 19/03/2009 11:52:44
Where's the Scotsman's story about the 1,000 extra police officers pledge being on target, in a report endoresed by an initially sceptical police federation? Was just reading that on the BBC news website.
122

The Master,

19/03/2009 12:02:17
I think regulars will know my complete revulsion of all actions of the Nationalist Administration currently in minority power, but there seem to be a lot of frivolous distractions on here just now, so I have saved my post, ready for pasting in at a more opportune juncture.

Watch this space: the Master will speak later on!
123

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 12:10:33
137, Walter, your point is only logical if you are intellectually challenged.

The issue is not about the release of information - it is about the type of information and the reason for the request.

The presiding officer of both parliaments can authorise the release of cabinet meeting minutes. However, rather obviously, both cabinets (Holyrood and Westminster) will naturally resist moves to get any heated (or otherwise) discussions out in the public domain. The issue is thus - is the requested information of public importance?
124

,

19/03/2009 12:15:33
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125

,

19/03/2009 12:16:09
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126

Newton_Invented_Gravity,

19/03/2009 12:16:53
The minutes of the westminster cabinet were requested because there is a serious concern that parliament, and the country as a whole was lied to by the labour government in the decision about going to war with Iraq.

What is the 'bombshell' the scotsman is expecting from seeing the holyrood governments minutes concerning the decision about Local Income Tax?
The government dropped LIT because they couldn't envisage getting it through parliament. What more could there possibly be to this story?

So maybe it'll emerge that some ministers disagreed with each other before the decision was made-so what-why is it in the public interest to know that?
127

,

19/03/2009 12:18:53
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128

HughB,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 12:25:51
This newspaper searches for the truth only so that it can warp and distort it, as it always does.

Let's get some secret minutes of secret meetings held at the Scotsman newspaper between Labour and DM. Oh sorry, they wouldn't be minuted, would they?
129

alanh,

ek 19/03/2009 12:33:12
123 Grahamski,Falkirk 19/03/2009 11:20:17
118
The SNP demanded the UK government release minuters of a cabinet meeting then refused to release their own executive cabinet minutes. This utter hypocrisy is the story.
Most people accept that cabinet discussions should be kept secret. The fact that the SNP think they can be in opposition and in power is jaw-dropping in its stupidity."


Sorry I dont get your point graham?
It was more than the SNP that thought that the one cabinet discussion about taking our country to war based on lies and deceit should have been made public.
You now seem to be arguing that since ONE cabinet meeting that led to war and death was asked for, even tho it was not put out to the public domain, then ALL cabinet meeting minutes should be published? Even tho when they were asked for you and your fellow unionist supporters were opposed to it
So who is the hypocrites? The ones that refused and now think that everyone else BUT them should publish the minutes or the ones that were refused open minutes from this EXCEPTIONAL case that do not think that just any old cabinet minutes should be published?
130

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 12:34:10
Johnston Press shares now 6p.
131

Donald Black,

Unthank 19/03/2009 12:44:13
Devolution has, pretty much as expected, exposed the severe limitations of the Labour Party careerists in Scotland.

What has been really shocking though is how it has also highlighted the deep inadequacy of the Scottish 'quality' press.

No one, unionist or nationalist, can surely regard this type of drivel as 'quality journalism'.

It is often said that nations get the media they deserve. Frankly we deserve better.

132

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 12:52:41
123 Grahamski - get it right. The Information commissioner demanded that the UK Govt release the Cabinet minutes which would tell us why we went to War. There is no comparison between that and a rubbish newspaper misusing the freedom of information act to ask for knowledge that is in the public domain already.

The Scotsman have made themselves a laughing stock here.
133

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19/03/2009 13:00:44
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134

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 13:01:27
Grahamski

May I have a wee shuftie at your diary?
135

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 13:03:27
"It begs the question - why oh why do we all keep reading it and posting here?"

Because it's still one of the few dailys that doesn't pre-moderate? Some folk just want to get things off their chest. Unfortunately - for some folk it's a drug. They just can't kick the habit.
136

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 13:04:08
... it's possibly like smoking. I don't know why I do it. I'd rather not, but there you go.
137

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:11:45
178
Observer,
The SNP called for minutes of the UK government's cabinet meetings to be made public. The UK government refused on the very reasonable grounds that the very nature of cabinet government demands that the arguments put forward in cabinet remain confidential.
That is a reasonable position and indeed is exactly the same postion that the Scottish SNP administration has used to maintain their secrecy at Holyrood. I support the SNP on this. I don't, however, support their hypocrisy, how could you?
138

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19/03/2009 13:12:37
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139

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:14:20
175
Alan,

I don't believe any cabinet minutes should be published.
140

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:16:35
"Devolution has, pretty much as expected, exposed the severe limitations of the Labour Party careerists in Scotland. What has been really shocking though is how it has also highlighted the deep inadequacy of the Scottish 'quality' press. No one, unionist or nationalist, can surely regard this type of drivel as 'quality journalism'." (Black)

Speaking as a Scottish journalist I have to agree with you.

The Scottish press has been, and often is, far more virulent toward the SNP than London based newspapers.

One would think a Scottish newspaper vastly inclined to favour the circumstance and issues of its readers - if only out of an instinct for survival - but historically Scottish newspapers have identified with the Union for the simple reason most are owned by millionaires living in the south of England having no allegiance to Scotland.

As for their under-paid and over-worked hacks, there's the age-old truism that cynicism is easier to compose than praise. It takes a lot of effort to do the latter, merely laziness to do the former. Attack and controversy sells newspapers, hence the macho sub-headings: Labour Trounces SNP, or, Brown Accuses SNP of Picking Fights.

It is not in England's interest to have Scotland prosper in any shape or for that might give it a commercial advantage. You would think the opposite; wealth here can only strengthen the Union. Alas, old prejudices die hard.

Scotland's relative failure has been Westminster's agenda for over 300 years.

141

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 13:16:40
179 I used to just read the posts, but then you get so annoyed with some you have to join in.

182 but like smoking, it's probably best that you don't start.
142

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 13:18:51
184

"Still trying to get a straight answer from Los Angeles though!"

Maybe you've to read between the lines.
143

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:18:55
187
LA,
Speaking as a 'Scottish journalist', really?
144

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 13:19:31
183 - Grahamski - I don't see any hypocrisy. And it wasn't only the SNP who wanted to know why we went to war was it. A slightly more pressing question than how to collect a tax.
145

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:20:52
188
Observer,
Did you see the piece in the Scotland on Sunday about Mr Pringle's less than 'civil' service?
He's going to get a talking to about his behaviour...remember where you heard it first....
146

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:22:36
191
The issue here is whether you respect cabinet discretion. You either do or don't. Unless you happen to be a nat then you seem to think you can and can't....
147

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 13:23:57
192 He'd have to go some way to beat Alistair Campbell wouldn't he.

I am sure he will stand suitably corrected:)
148

Number 6,

Germany 19/03/2009 13:24:55
152# Lianachan,

You can comment on the extra thousand police pledge being on target over at the Daily Record.

It was posted as soon as the forum became accesible again (Last night). Feel free to comment there and post any other topics you wish to see published and discussed.

The unionista movement used to have a good presence there, but they have yet to return.

Probably sick of losing every argument in a cacophany of "gwaffs".
149

wullieboy,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 13:24:59
62-Grahamski
I think you'll find the cabinet minutes went as follows - "that's the opposition voted for the trams. suppose we'd better let them have them. we could find better things to spend £600m on, but then that's the will of the government"
150

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19/03/2009 13:25:27
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151

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:25:43
"LA, Speaking as a 'Scottish journalist', really? (Grahamski)

Aye, but no longer writing for the Scottish press, otherwise I would not embarrass colleagues. The times for print journalism are dire.

By the way, have you spotted the announced decimation of BBC Scotland News reporters and journalists?

Did not a leading Herald journalist leave his newpaper to join BBC Scotland only last year?

Hoo-haar!
152

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:26:20
195
Dear goodness, you are so obsessed with Labour.....
153

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 13:28:00
194 that particular freedom of information request was just one of many many many attempts which have been made, and which will continue to be made, to attempt to establish culpability for the Iraq war. On that basis I supported the Information Commissioner's decision, as he judged the matter to be in the public interest. It was a specific and a unique request made in a certain context. Support for that information being released does not suggest that all Cabinet minutes should be released, for reasons which are blindingly obvious.
154

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:28:47
199
A journalist celebrating other journalists losing their jobs?
Hoo-Haar indeed....
155

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:29:41
202
And who is to decide when the cabinet minutes are violate?
156

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:30:22
"Didn't I ask you if you lived in Scotland? Do you? (Vincent)

Read the posts other than your own.

"You would think the opposite; wealth HERE can only strengthen the Union. Alas, old prejudices die hard." (LA)

And it matters not a bit where patriots live, so long as they maintain their values and remain consistent in their political beliefs, and in the case of repairing Scotland's democratic rights, patient and persistent in their stand.
157

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:33:29
"A journalist celebrating other journalists losing their jobs?" (Grahamski)

You are playing the classic dishonest blogger faking shock. Snark at its worst. A dude, playing a dude, being another dude.

My statement says times are bad for print journalists. It implies BBC Scotland has even less of a commitment to Scotland than its newspapers.

158

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19/03/2009 13:34:32
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19/03/2009 13:38:57
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160

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:39:49
LA,
Your snide comments about a fellow journalist did not go unnoticed.
Let's face it, you were almost punching the air in delight at the prospect of journalist redundancies.
Pathetic party hackery at its worst!
161

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:40:21
"As for your quote, how pompous can you get!!" (Vincent)

I can do much better.
162

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19/03/2009 13:40:35
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163

,

19/03/2009 13:41:45
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164

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:42:25
"Pathetic party hackery at its worst!" (Grahamski)

If only you could rise to that level.
165

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19/03/2009 13:42:40
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Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 13:45:44

Vincent van Ski Lodge - two to one: The usual concerted attack easily rebuffed. Boy, you guys are scared.

I'd put an early order in for your "Independence Day" celebration badges, if I were you. Otherwise you'll stand out in the crowd like stuck pigs at a feast.

Till next time ...
167

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19/03/2009 13:55:40
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ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 19/03/2009 13:56:12
What a load of mince, nobody was bothered about what might or might not be in the Westminster cabinet papers until more and more of us began to suspect that we were being lied to, by the top politican in Britain over the most important decision a government can make, especially as parliament doesn't get to make it, i.e. taking Britain to war.

One that was not only highly unpopular but smacks of being illegal.

Only then did people start to say, we should see the papers.

The Scottish governments cabinet papers, were/are on a subject that not only was laid aside but that if it had went to parliament was going to be outvoted anyway.

There are quite a few rules covering the freedom of information act etc and it is not just as straight forward as dynamite is trying to infer.

There is also the matter of time and money, not all of which would be down to the Scotsman.

There is also the little matter of the Scotsman having being urged many times in the past by readers and contributers to delve deeper into a story and they have failed to do so.

It should also be remebered that cabinet members disagreeing over issues is not only normal but is apt to demonstrait that it is a cabinet who's members do not feel threatened and therfor speak freely, after which, if they want, they can vote on a matter and if they are still not satisfied they can resign and cause a right stushie.

It's called democracy, which is why our unionists chums are most likely bemused, it being a concept they are not too familiar with.

Mind you if what we have been told recently is true then it's the sort of thing that never happened in Blairs cabinet.

As for me, I couldn't care less if the SNP government reveals the papers or not, just as I am not really bothered about other Westminster cabinet papers, but it's a pity that just for once the Scotsman and dynamite couldn't tell the truth.

But then when the unionists who come on here STILL don't say which party they support, why
169

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 19/03/2009 13:58:03
Forgot to ask, does anybody know wha tthe Scotsman position is on the release of the Westminster cabinet papers?
170

alanh,

ek 19/03/2009 13:58:10
"185 Grahamski,Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:14:20
175
Alan,

I don't believe any cabinet minutes should be published. "

That is maybe where we differ Graham. I think that EXCEPTIONAL decisions by any govt must be allowed into the public domain. Maybe not at the time but within a few years if it is proven that the FACTS used to make the cabinet decision are now found out to be completely false and parliament misled.
I simply dont equate this to a normal cabinet meeting when many ideas may be floated and discussed openly and fail to see any hypocrisy in that opinion

"194 Grahamski,Falkirk 19/03/2009 13:22:36
191
The issue here is whether you respect cabinet discretion. You either do or don't. Unless you happen to be a nat then you seem to think you can and can't...."
I also disagree with what you say is the issue here. Any decision, north or south of the border, where taken using lies and misinformation dressed up as facts that leads to as many deaths as this one did should be in the public domain to allow us the electorate to make an informed judgement on the character of our politicians. If the details were published of the cabinet decision to go to war were made public it may change the minds of some, like me, that simply see Bliar as a war criminal over this issue( altho tbh I doubt it)
171

ochone,

19/03/2009 13:59:07
217 Cont, should I expect openess from a unionist newspaper?
172

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 14:04:21
219
Alan,
Who decides what is 'exceptional'? If the minutes of our cabinet meetings become open to public perusal then debate in cabinet will stop immediately.
173

Miss H,

19/03/2009 14:04:36
The issue with the Iraq Cabinet minutes is not the record of the discussions as such.

The issue is what transpired between meeting one, when the Attorney General was not persuaded that the invasion would be legal and meeting two when he was and advised the Cabinet accordingly. Why did he change his mind?

Personally I don’t think the minutes of either meeting would tell us. I think Clare Short made that point. You would need to see how the decision was arrived at and what the legal advice was based on. And we never will.
174

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19/03/2009 14:08:52
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175

alanh,

ek 19/03/2009 14:10:48
"221 Grahamski,Falkirk 19/03/2009 14:04:21
219
Alan,
Who decides what is 'exceptional'? If the minutes of our cabinet meetings become open to public perusal then debate in cabinet will stop immediately."

can you not concede that going into a war that killed many people based on false information makes that cabinet decision "exceptional". If WMD were found then imo that cabinet decision would NOT be "exceptional"

again I am NOT saying that all cabinet discussions should be open to the public but major ones that have been proven to be based on incorrect information and spin should be, in a civilised society.
176

Davie08,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 14:18:00
I only had to read the headline to know that Maddox was the author of this lamentable excuse for jounalism. There is a definite pattern to his writing, work up a non story into an anti SNP piece, get Foulkes to comment on it and hey presto there's your headline. Mind you it says volumes about Mr Maddox's abilities as a journalist that he has to resort to George Foulkes as his resident rent a quote.
177

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19/03/2009 14:32:51
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178

Stan Butler,

19/03/2009 14:33:01
The gnats should start their own newspaper.

See if it lasts longer than the last one they had.

It survived for seven editions.
179

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 19/03/2009 14:42:31
Don't be too hard on them: it's just a case of "do as I say not as I do".
180

Miss H,

19/03/2009 14:49:57
218 Who decides what is exceptional?

The Information Commissioner decided that the Iraq minutes were exceptional.

I am sure that if the Scottish Information Commissioner ordered the SNP Government to publish the minutes of the LIT Cabinet meeting they would do so.

But I am equally sure that the Information Commissioner would not order them to do that because there is no reason why they should.

No country was imvaded as a consequence of the decision to shelve LIT till 2011, no-one died, no troops were deployed as far as I know. And no-one has shown the slightest degree of interest in that particular meeting until today.
181

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19/03/2009 15:00:12
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redcliffe62,

19/03/2009 15:04:26
i think no cabinet papers should be provided, certainly for the life of the government, as it will hinder discussions.
the scotsman should also be checking who was right on iraq, robin cook or tony blair, and in hindsight i know who i would have my money on. cook resigned as he had integrity and could not go along with mass murder on a flase pretext. blair and cronies like brown lied and crawled up the trans american brown squishy pipeline.
183

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19/03/2009 15:10:32
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184

The Smug One,

19/03/2009 15:13:50
You SNP supporters should admit you don't actually care a jot about the Iraq war, you just view it as a fantastic opportunity to prattle on with your endless obsession with Labour and black propaganda. You probably hope it detoriates as much as possible to further your grubby little agenda.

Hyporcrisy indeed, you're fooling no one, all you care about is your precious SNP and separatism.

And Labour now on course to win the next Holyrood elction according to the latest YOUGOV poll and its not even half way through your term yet! This is the most lame, pathetic mess of a Labour Party we have witnessed since the 1980s LMFAO at you!
185

Davie08,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 15:41:42
#232 Spook the old has been, or more accurately, never was couldn't even get elected Rector of Edinburgh uni. Defeated by Iain McWhirter with 69% of the vote. The man isn't even a busted flush any more he is simply flushed away.
186

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 15:43:27
"The gnats should get their own newspaper."
(Butler)

An excellent idea!

Why don't we go further? Why don't they get their own country? How about ...

Scotland?

No one else wants it.
187

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 15:54:12
"In the 2005 General election 56% of the people in Glasgow did not vote Labour yet Labour took all the seats." (Spook)

Did't realise that, Spook, assuming your figures correct. Not a great advertisement for democracy Glasgow style.
188

Gargamel,

19/03/2009 15:57:14
#227 Mr H: " No country was imvaded as a consequence of the decision to shelve LIT till 2011, no-one died, no troops were deployed as far as I know. And no-one has shown the slightest degree of interest in that particular meeting until today."

The principle remains the same. The fact that you Nats have one of your deluded conspiracy theories about what you insist in dubbing an "illegal war" (despite the fact that, in actual fact the legality is considered "dubious" at worst by experts) makes no difference.

Btw, message to whomever had shredder shredded and eradicated Count Baltazar: they will be back after a suitable interval, you can *count* on that!
189

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19/03/2009 16:02:48
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Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 16:08:37
239
In case you hadn't noticed, Glasgow isn't a single constituency....
191

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 16:09:05
"Booze fries the brains. Let no one tell you otherwise. Boozers make everybody around them miserably unhappy. they removes days from other people's lives. It's all part of their desperate illness, all aggression.

Nonsense. Booze doesn't ALWAYS cause aggression. The odd tipple isn't a desperate illness. Get things in perspective LA.
192

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 16:09:45
241
Good to see you back to your home turf of character assissination in lieu of policies. How very Kevin Pringle of you.....
193

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 16:12:29
Grahamski

At #218 you wrote, "If the minutes of our cabinet meetings become open to public perusal then debate in cabinet will stop immediately."

When you say "our" - are you in the cabinet?
194

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:13:23
The fact that you Nats have one of your deluded conspiracy theories about what you insist in dubbing an "illegal war"" (Caramel)

"You Nats." Are debates to be conducted at that level?

The CIA reports that a majority of Iraqi's consider the invasion illegal. The Iraqi puppet government, with new-found confidence, believes it was illegal. Go tell them you, personally, feel different, and hang around for their reaction. Please.
195

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 16:18:33
245
I'm not in the cabinet. It is the cabint of our country, Britain. Hence, 'our' cabinet.
196

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:20:45
"I'm not in the cabinet. It is the cabint of our country, Britain. Hence, 'our' cabinet." (Grahamski)

LoL. Maybe he's in the cupboard.

197

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 16:25:20
246
'Iraqi puppet government'. You really are the lowest of the low, aren't you? You just can't bear the thought of the Iraqis actually coming out of this better off, can you? Brave heroic Iraqis died ensuring that Iraq begins its journey towards democracy and you snide little Saddam fellow-taveller dismis their sacrifice as a 'puppet government'. They were murdered by the remnants of Saddam's fascist Ba'ath party and by religious zealots cheered on by their western groupies like you. You truly are pathetic.
198

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:29:36
"You truly are pathetic" (Grahamski)

A boozer's empty shout?

Tell us the name of the last "heroic Iraqi" you befriended.
199

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:31:26
"I'm not in the cabinet. It is the cabint of our country, Britain. Hence, 'our' cabinet." (Grahamski)

Worth repeating. I enjoy a good joke. It helps relieve tension when dealing with serious matters.
200

Davie08,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 16:32:05
# 249 Cage a bit rattled there Grahamski. So it is the great civilizing project of the west to save the benighted hordes from themselves is it? Go away, have a cup of tea and think about the logical conclusion of your argument
201

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 16:35:32
The SNP are well and truly in bunker mode now. Their posts are becoming evermore shrill and obnoxious. With all their policies ditched they have nothing left but their bigotry and petulance. It's going to be a long two years of recriminations and girning as they slowly stagger towards the next election with only their grievances to keep them warm. Scotland deserves better.
202

Stan Butler,

19/03/2009 16:35:56
#227 Miss Hooley

So cabinet minutes for meetings dealing with important, controversial and sensitive issues which are of great public concern should be published and those which deal with mundane trivia that no one cares about should be kept confidential.

Very sensible.

But what happens next time the cabinet has to discuss an important, controversial and sensitive matter?

Will cabinet members discuss the issue so openly if they know the minutes are to be published?

Why not just hold the cabinet meeting in public?

Seriously. Why not?
203

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:38:02
"Scotland deserves better." (Grahamski)

Anybody who uses an Internet website to scream blue murder the way you do is desperately trying to tell people he has no friends.



204

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:38:56
"This is correct, take a look" (Spook)

Thanks for the heads-up, Spook.
205

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 16:40:32
249 So the fact that information commisioner ruled that the release of the minutes in the run up to the decision was in the public interest has that slipped you by.

For what it's worth I think that if the Iraq papers were released it wouldn't show why the Attorney General changed his mind and on what criteria.

This whole Scotsman story is a false flag
206

Grahamski,

Falkirk 19/03/2009 16:41:36
252
Maybe you should have a cup of tea and consider why the so-called anti-war movement is run by an unholy alliance of Saddam-supporting trots and islamo-fascists. Then come back and tell us why you are so keen to denigrate the Iraqi people's attempts to introduce democracy.
207

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:45:16
"I'm not in the cabinet. It is the cabint of our country, Britain. Hence, 'our' cabinet." (Grahamski)

The stange thing is, Grahamski, your remark gets funnier on each reading. I hope your imaginary Iraqi friends share you sense of humour. Life in Iraq isn't exactly a bunch of laughs these days.
208

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 16:46:25
260 You have lost the plot completely now. Millions of people opposed the Iraq War - why ? Because as Tony Blair has admitted the facts were fixed around the policy, and not the other way around.

Now catch a grip. Nationalists did not introuduce the Iraq war into this - the Scotsman did by their cheap and phoney stunt.
209

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 16:49:06
254. That's the best laugh I've had today.

255. Ditto for you too, this information was requested to be released by the IC, who judged it to be on balance in the public interest.

If the Scotsman or anybody else has an issue with this raise your complaint with Kevin Dunnion and excerise your rights and he will judge if it is in the public interest.
210

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 16:49:39
"BTW it has taken me 25 attempts to log into this website ... so they can show the advertisers the amount of hits the news paper is getting each day." (Spook)

I though Grahamski was their secret weapon. Avoid the topic an only post outrageous scorn to provoke "them Nats" to respond in fury. Sit back and count the hits.

Wait a minute-

I though them Nats were dwindling in number!

211

Gargamel,

who shredded shredder? 19/03/2009 16:50:13
#253 Spook: but you've got to remember that, if we had General Elections by proportional representation, that would give the Tories a presence at Westminster comparable to their Holyrood total and take away the traditional Nat warcry that the Tories will have no mandate in Scotland if they win the next election.
212

,

19/03/2009 16:52:08
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,

19/03/2009 16:54:29
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Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 16:54:46
260 I thought you were a socialist? Obs @ 263 comments are exact and to the point.
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19/03/2009 16:56:13
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Davie08,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 16:56:48
#260 Actually I am away for a cup of tea now. I will check and see that it is fair trade and not islamo-fascist and that it does not give me the Saddam supporting trots( sounds nasty). In the meantime I suggest you take a somewhat stronger sedative
217

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19/03/2009 17:05:31
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,

19/03/2009 17:06:07
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,

19/03/2009 17:12:26
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,

19/03/2009 17:14:19
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19/03/2009 17:14:20
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,

19/03/2009 17:14:44
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19/03/2009 17:15:43
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Gargamel,

Shredder's Shredder 19/03/2009 17:18:42
Well done, Scotsman! Am I the only one that thinks there must have been tittle tattle in the Holyrood Tavern about how some home truths were brought home to the Scottish Cabinet at the meeting which finally decided to put poll tax 2 out of its misery?

Talk about "unworkable"! The fiasco over poll tax 2 makes SFT seem like a good idea, for crying out loud!
225

Miss H,

19/03/2009 17:19:01
255 Stan.

I think most of us are probably agree that in general cabinet minutes should not be published.

What you – and other unionist posters here – do not seem to understand is that it was the Information Commissioner for England who ordered that the minutes of the 2 UK Cabinet meetings in question be published. The UK Government decided to defy that.

If the Scottish Information Commissioner ordered the SNP Government to publish the minutes the Scotsman asked for I am sure they would do it.
226

Miss H,

19/03/2009 17:23:35
140 The principle does not remain the same.

If the SNP had defied a ruling by the Information Commissioner to publish the minutes requested by the Scotsman then there would be a parallel.

As it is, there is no parallel and the principle is not the same.
227

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 17:23:53
283 If you are that concerned about truths log a FOI through the Scottish Information Commissioner.
228

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 19/03/2009 17:25:24
There goes the numbering!
229

Miss H,

19/03/2009 17:26:05
126 No Walter the SNP were critical of the UK Cabinet for defying an order made by the Information Commissioner.

The Scotsman is not the Information Commissioner.

Important distinction.
230

Miss H,

19/03/2009 17:27:21
205 Gargamel - this comment should have been for you:

The principle does not remain the same.

If the SNP had defied a ruling by the Information Commissioner to publish the minutes requested by the Scotsman then there would be a parallel.

As it is, there is no parallel and the principle is not the same.
231

Miss H,

19/03/2009 17:28:24
207 It is for the list vote
232

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 19/03/2009 17:32:23
#281

If you think Glasgo council is the biggest den of sleaze the world has ever seen you should really travel more. Maybe even reading would help.
233

Miss H,

19/03/2009 17:32:46
248 yes you are the only one.
234

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 17:35:00
"The fiasco over poll tax "" (Caraml)

You enjoy wild exaggeration. Either that or you look to others to point out the obvious.

LIT has no comparison with the Poll Tax, a tax imposed on Scotland undemocratically by an authoritarian regime. And what fiasco is there in a policy announced, debated, seen to be insupportable by dint of a minority administration and little funds to install it, consequently delayed pending better circumstances?

You're confusing "fiasco" with "pragmatism," in the same way as the ignorant might confuse "Cisco" with "Zapata."
235

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 17:37:16
Numbers are all tae he­ll.
236

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19/03/2009 17:37:30
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237

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 19/03/2009 17:38:43
#262

It's not about 2 wrongs it's about wild exegaration.
238

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 19/03/2009 17:41:02
#264

there are plent thta have ruled for longer and never even bothered having an election. You have had elections and the populace have spoken. Democracy is only a good idea when it supports the nats?
239

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19/03/2009 17:47:47
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The Master,

19/03/2009 17:49:58
#269 Traquir: do repeat them, for those of us who have just logged on and didn't have the chance to catch them!
241

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19/03/2009 17:58:01
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,

19/03/2009 17:59:24
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All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 19/03/2009 18:00:03
#267 I didnt make the throw away comment about the worst the WORLD has ever seen. A typical emotional and completely false statement. So the rule should be that no matter how many elections you win you must after a certain time relinquish power?
244

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19/03/2009 18:00:20
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brownlie,

19/03/2009 18:06:15
276

Good health - every day I see you and every day I don't.

I don't recall Traquir ever posting something so offensive it had to be red-lined. What is going on?

Why is the Scotsman so interested in the minutes? Are they going to compare them, favourably, with Blair's cabinet where his and Alastair Campbell's word was law?
246

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19/03/2009 18:15:19
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247

argonaut,

east lothian 19/03/2009 18:17:13

oh how low can this rag go................
to compare the decision not to release westminister cabinet minutes on the decision to go to war without a U.N mandate, a war which cost 100's of thousands of lives with the decision not to release scottish cabinet minutes on the decision to delay the abolition of council tax..what the hell ????
the teeth grind, the toes curl, this is bonkers total bonkers
248

The Brain,

19/03/2009 18:25:40
I think one of the UK's problems in recent years has been the command and control of the New Labour nucleus. Therefore, I fully understand why the Scotsman would want to check if Swinney and Salmond are trying the same stunt up here.

We are a parliamentarian democracy, not a Presidency, you know? Brown and Salmond are as bad as each other in that regard.
249

brownlie,

19/03/2009 18:31:20
281

Do you think the Scotsman is concerned about the command and control of the New Labour nucleus?

Judging by Scotsman head-lines over the past few months, is it not more likely that they are hoping for something they can use for SNP attacking head-lines?
250

Mikko,

Drumnadrochit 19/03/2009 18:38:03
I am struggling to see how the SNP could possibly win even a minority administration next time around since they cannot deliver the independence referendum in 2010 and I don't see any point to them apart from that one single goal.
251

The Brain,

19/03/2009 18:39:18
Brownlie

The Scotsman seems to be treating the SNP the same way they treated Labour before. I think this bias is in your head.

The government is always going to get sniped at.
252

The Brain,

19/03/2009 18:41:44
Mikko

Scrapping prescription charges. I can think of that. Imagine, a world where the tax-payer gets to use the services he pays for without a 2nd, 3rd, 4th charge?

But yes, the SNP have generally dissapointed.
253

brownlie,

19/03/2009 18:43:46
284 The Brain,

Sorry, don't agree with you, Kenny, those with long memories can look back on previous Scotsman head-lines if they wish. Surely the Scotsman has a duty to present news, in a balanced manner, without fear or favour?
254

The Brain,

19/03/2009 18:46:46
Brownlie

Only the BBC has a constitution that promises objectivity. Privately owned papers always have an editorial slant. The Scotsman's not too over the top.

Don't believe me? Go to the Torygraph website. That is a slant!
255

The Brain,

19/03/2009 18:47:11
Or the daily hate! The Scotsman is hardly bias.
256

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 18:51:40
Examples of Perverse Newspaper Headlines.

SNP Win Council - Smash and Grab Predicted.
Salmond:"Gray is Right" - Labour Attack SNP Lie.
SNP - "A One Policy Party" - LibDems
LimDems - "Main policy To Block Seperation"
Salmond: "Scotland Is Inclusive"
Brown: "I will Not Work With SNP"
Swinney: "Scotland Needs A Better Deal"
Darling: "You've Had Your chips"
Salmond Meets USA Foreign Secretary
Ming Campbell: "Salmon A Novice"
Clinton: "Since When Does USA Meet Novices?"






257

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 18:54:02
283 Mikko,Drumnadrochit 19/03/2009 18:38:03
“I am struggling to see how the SNP could possibly win even a minority administration next time around since they cannot deliver the independence referendum in 2010 and I don't see any point to them apart from that one single goal.”

I would recommend a new pair of reading glasses.
258

The Brain,

19/03/2009 18:55:06
Los Angeles

What do you think is wrong with those headlines? I can see nothing strange.
259

brownlie,

19/03/2009 18:57:06
288

After a quick glance at even the last month's headlines, if that is your considered and objective opinion there is no point in any further discussion. There is possibly a clue to your objectivity in your last sentence at #285.
260

The Brain,

19/03/2009 19:02:25
Brownlie

What are you on? There is no obligation to be satisfied by the SNP government, that is why voters get a choice. Honestly, I think your feeling for the SNP are a little strong.
261

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 19:04:38

"What do you think is wrong with those headlines? I can see nothing strange" (Brainzzzzz)

Depends wht you call "strange."

I consider it political maladroit in the extreme that Ming Campbell described Alex Salmond as a "novice" for meeting Clinton. fool. In his attempt to slur Salmond he demeans himself, but above all, calls into question the political judgment of the USA's Foreign Secretary, and by implication the President's cabinet that approved the meeting. None of that would have occured to campbell so intent was he on lowering the status of Scotland's First Minister.

In Campbell's case we can rule out hypocricy and substitute tomfoolery.


262

European Scot,

19/03/2009 19:07:16
289 Brain

If you really do claim to have what your moniker suggests, then commenting that the Scotsman isn't biased would seem to rather contradict that.
There is far more balanced coverage about Scotland in English newspapers than there is in this publication, with one or two notable exceptions.
The constant negative, and sniping terminology used against the SNP, contrasts with the positive coverage of the Unionist Parties, and leaves little doubt what this newspaper's agenda is all about, and where it's loyalties lie.
Balance is not a word that would spring to mind when describing the coverage of this outfit.
263

brownlie,

19/03/2009 19:08:00
293

What do you mean "What are you on?"? Does a failure to agree with you mean that I am taking some substance that affects the thinking process? I take it you hold the view that there is no onus on the Scotsman to present a balanced view of news that affects Scotland.
264

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 19:11:06
Says 338 comments at the top but why argue about deletions.

I would like to see the shadow cabinet(s) minutes from all their meetings which have led to a united front against the Scottish government.

Wonder if the Scotsman - at the cutting edge of investigative journalism - can afford to appeal the desicision to tell them to bog off.
265

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 19:11:49
291 I don't actually expect a free press. But I think when both the so-called broadsheets serving Scotland routinely print Labour party press releases rather than their own interpretation of the news, we have a right to complain. There is one fair paper - The Sunday Herald - it employs investigative journalists and dishes it out without fear or favour to ALL parties. That is what a paper should do. The Herald and Scotsman will soon disappear if they carry on at this rate.
266

Miss H,

19/03/2009 19:12:10
296 It is not the same.

Take a deep breath and try to understand this.

The SNP criticised the UK Government for defying an order by the Information Commissioner to release two sets of minutes regarding the decision to go to war in Iraq.

The SNP refused a FOI request put in by the Scotsman newspaper for minutes of the Cabinet meeting at which the decision to defer LIT was made.

Those two actions are not the same in any way.

The Scotsman is not the Information Commissioner. It is a newspaper.

267

Jock Tamson,

19/03/2009 19:14:40
"Forgetting that the SNP Klown Cannae MacArsekill was lifted also. Drunk as a skunk doon at Wembley." - 296
Rab The Ranter™

He was arrested for the duration of the football match and released without charge after the final whistle. Does that not tell you something?
268

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:15:59
What happened to Traquir's post with a BEEB link? I didn't have time to examine it. Email me somebody.
269

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 19:16:52
The Brian,19/03/2009 18:47:11
“Or the daily hate! The Scotsman is hardly bias.”
Oh really, where do you think the following recent headlines come from?


SNP under fire over bail 'interference'
SNP dumps £200m new forest scheme
Salmond among targets of fake letter bombs
SNP decide against leasing out Scotland's forests
Salmond bid to claim credit for schools 'shameless'
Treasury tells Swinney: Less talk, more action
SNP government too late to build schools
SNP in U-turn over Calman
SNP crackdown on discount alcohol is delayed by a year
Salmond sees green shoots of recovery in Scottish golf
Switch on to electric vehicles, SNP urged
SNP trust branded an 'expensive scandal'
Whitehall says SNP's drink price rise is illegal
SNP's 'reality check' as parties reject home rule referendum
Holyrood vetoes SNP referendum bid
Salmond 'put the SNP's needs before country'


Ah you are correct, they are from the Labourite web site, or are they?



270

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 19:17:48
"There is far more balanced coverage about Scotland in English newspapers than there is in this publication, with one or two notable exceptions." (European Scot)

The American main press give Scotland a better deal. There is regular reporting on moves towards independence and the struggle Westminster has to keep its territories in line.

Then we had Brown giving a knighthood to Ted Kennedy - a Scotsman giving and English award to an Irishman - followed by a clunky speech to Congress the most inexperienced Republican could have written in his sleep.

At one point he said:

"You Americans siezed the opportunity to take your independence, to build up your own country with your own hands!"

Assembled senators rise to their feet to applaud.

While I was laughing at the irony I bet a few thousand American indians were jeering.
271

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 19:18:10
Oh dear 299, Observer,, you don't expect a free press. I expect a free press, not a government agency masquerading as one.
272

TheUnionisBritish,

19/03/2009 19:19:15
The direction this newspaper has been going down for the past few years is a bitter disappointment to most of its loyal readers. I say that in sorrow rather than anger. It would be good if the paper returned back to it's Independent roots pre Andrew Neil days and reported actual news and not trying to invent news. Perhaps the paper will be sold as the Newpaper group is almost insolvent and with luck bought by someone who would nuture the paper and sack almost all the so called journalists who all seem to have a political axe to grind. I say that as a Unionist and not as a Nationalist.
273

The Brain,

19/03/2009 19:19:41
I can see that there are a few people on here who are emotionally and spiritually attached to the SNP.

Just to let you know that most normal people don't view them as anything other than a group of politicians. Also, if you don't like the editorial slant of this paper, why do you persist in visiting it and harassing other readers?

Maybe it would be better for everyone if you got some help.
274

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 19:20:34
266 All Politicians are the Same - apropos to yesterday's arguments - did you catch the piece in the Herald today which said that ''Missiles may not fit Trident submarines''.

''The staggering revelation that the American-made Trident replacement missiles might be the wrong size for the submarines, currently entering their design stage in Britain, has cast doubt on the UK's ability to maitain a nuclear deterrant in the future''.

Aren't you desigining these submarines ? Has anyone told you this ?
275

,

19/03/2009 19:21:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
276

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:23:27
"Also, if you don't like the editorial slant of this paper, why do you persist in visiting it and harassing other readers?"

Who were you before?
277

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 19:24:53
307 No there are people here who are knowledgable about politics and would like a Scottish based paper to serve their interests. I don't want a pro-SNP paper, any more than a pro-Labour or a pro-Tory one. I want a pro-NEWSpaper. The only reason I read this one is for the comments, it sure as hell isn't for the news.
278

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:24:59
309 Vince

Hey Vince! It's only a comment page on a newspaper. It's not serious - is it? Folk just letting off a little steam.
279

The Brain,

19/03/2009 19:25:29
310

What a wierd thing to say. I think I'll come back a bit later or visit another story.
280

brownlie,

19/03/2009 19:25:33
309 Vincent

There are a lot of individuals much more influential than you who are scared of Scottish independence and not because they fear the knock on the door.
281

The Brain,

19/03/2009 19:26:34
311

You want objective news?

www.bbc.co.uk

You have one, now do one.
282

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:27:16
BUY THE PEOPLES' FRIEND FOR A NON-BIASED TAKE ON THE NEWS.

or as the non PC blurb says, "The world’s longest running magazine incorporates serials, short stories and poetry as well as features on readers’ interests such as gardening, cookery, crafts and travel.
A comfy chair, a cup of tea and the latest copy of People’s Friend are the perfect ingredients to brighten up any woman’s day!"

Har de har har.

Sore elbow
283

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 19:29:04
315 Oh come on, don't be silly. Surely you can do better than that.
284

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 19:29:49
"Maybe it would be better for everyone if you got some help." (Brian)

Now here's the thing: Brian hits these threads at a regular pace. Obviouly he feels embolen to make s statement on behalf of sanity, to instill calm and reason.

When his first utterance gets challenged he descends into bluster over the shock of getting confronted by an opposing opinion. If contradicted a second time he demands others leave so he can carry on posting without challenge or fear of looking foolish. And when all else fails he tells the other blogger they need medical help.

Have the courage of your scribbles, for god's sake.
285

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:30:04
Comments from the Peoples' Friend (true)

"I love peoples friend and have read it since my Grannie passed it on to me over 65 years ago."

"You know every stories is a feel good one i,ve tried recipes sent for free gifts and enjoy the gardening slots.Its then passed down to my father who is 78 and my next door neighbour who is sixty we often sqabble over who is going to read it first."

On second thoughts, there's more of an edge here.
286

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:30:42
BBC objective? Worra laugh.
287

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:31:39
I still haven't forgiven the BEEB since Orgreave.
288

Linoleum Blownapart,

19/03/2009 19:32:04
Laters ....
289

,

19/03/2009 19:35:08
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290

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 19/03/2009 19:38:36
315 The Brian,19/03/2009 19:26:34

“You want objective news?

www.bbc.co.uk”



Ah yes, I recall an objective political programme from that source.

“Domhair” it was called and was broadcast by BBC Alba.

No doubt you watched it.
291

,

19/03/2009 19:39:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
292

European Scot,

19/03/2009 19:44:03
307 The Brain

" ... if you don't like the editorial slant of this paper, why do you persist in visiting it and harassing other readers?"

Perhaps it's a healthy attitude of wanting to find out the truth, in having all sides of an argument presented, possibly with journalists of different political hues presenting stories from different perspectives.
The greatest crime this newspaper commits is in being so predictable. It will attack Salmond and the SNP at every opportunity, whilst promoting New Labour and the other Unionist Parties, and painting them in a positive light.
It's not about wanting an SNP broadsheet proclaiming Alex Salmond is the bees knees on a daily basis, any more than it's wishing to read Unionist propaganda dished out ad nauseam.
The clue is in the word balance.
293

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 19:49:59

I wrote recently of Greenland gaining its independence.

Ruled for hundreds of years by the Danish, they were given a kind of devolution as far back as 1978, (talk of our independence was a laughing matter back then) and with three votes abstaining out of a population of almost 57,500, regained their independence in full late last year without a single protest from Denmark or threat of sanction.

They separated this year.

They have a parliament of thirty-one agreeable members, and a head of state in Margarethe II. At the celebration of their freedom she said she was rather sad "in some ways" that the Danish had gone.

"They were a peaceable, likable people. They actively nurtured our culture, guided us with wisdom, never dominated, encouraged us to govern as much as we could, always courteous never were negative, even to the point on injecting investment capital so that we can go it alone. Greenland was a full welfare state with Denmark's help as early as 1953. Thank goodness we were not invaded by the Vikings or the English."

I must be say I enjoy that little anecdote.
294

AJM,

19/03/2009 20:38:54
#328 Los Angeles Thank you for your insight into a a new fully independent state shaking of the shackles of a former colonial power.

Ah, so it was a colony given independence, not a state part of a union.

That head of state Queen Margarethe II, was sad the Danish had gone. Curious thing to say as she is Danish and still Queen of Denmark.

They regained their independence in full did they, or did they get control of the Police and Judiciary and Inuit is the official language.

So who is looking after the defence and foreign affairs, Denmark, in concultation of course.

Denmark continues to subsidise LA's fully independent nation to about $540 million per yr. About half the budget is this what you think should happen to Scotland?

Postal workers and Taxi drivers are encouraged to tell the authorities about potential suicides as on average 1 in 4 young women attempt suicide. Best not mention alcohol.

As for the quote by her majesty I cannot be bothered to look it up.

So the little anecdote seems to have no basis in fact, they are not fully independent.

I look forward to further installments, if this what you and your SNP supporters are keen for us to aspire to, we will be in a complete mess.

295

Observer,,

Glasgow 19/03/2009 20:49:07
''as on average 1 in 4 young women attempt suicide. Best not mention alcohol.'' What's your point caller ? Are we all gonna top ourselves in an independent Scotland or what ? And how did you find all this out ? To paraphrase Jack the Ripper - Wikipedia is the online encyclopedia which will not be blamed for nothing......


296

,

19/03/2009 21:04:57
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297

The Brain,

19/03/2009 21:09:38
Observer

How do you manage to fill paragraphs with such irrelevency?

The inflection of your tone suggests you think you are clever or are making some substantive point, but I can tell you that your posts are those of a rambling loon.
298

AJM,

19/03/2009 21:18:53
#331 Observer, if you search for suicide greenland and Bjerregaard you see a multitude of references.

The point was this was being waved as an aspirational independence story, it seems to be a fabrication if it is looked into in any detail. It is independence of a colony that still cannot support itself and has real social problems. It is by no means aspirational, only if the story is full of errors.
299

AJM,

19/03/2009 21:23:10
#331 Observer, not sure why i bothered to respond to your lack of understanding what the point was as Greenland has been waved before by SNP supporting posters.

I have not seen that my comments have be rebutted.
300

,

19/03/2009 21:28:14
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301

,

19/03/2009 21:30:43
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302

AJM,

19/03/2009 21:38:49
#337 Vincent-W It did not take much research and make sure your sources are decent, something that aspiring journalists are not really taught these days it seems.

Could not believe the Queen referred to was the Queen of Denmark. Unbelievably rude of a Danish Monarch, most out of character for her I understand.
303

brownlie,

19/03/2009 21:43:22
331 Observer

As an independent reader of posts I must say your comments are always relevant and clever and you make some very substantive points.
304

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 21:58:16
"Thank you for your insight into a a new fully independent state shaking of the shackles of a former colonial power." (AJM)

The point made by the Greenlanders, and the one you are trying to spin, is they never saw the Danish as nasty colonialists for the simple reason the Danish treated them with such respect. And yes, as well as some typos, I see I conflated too much in reducing the post. The statement I quote comes from the leader of the independence movement, the other is the head of state they voted to keep - Danish.

All very civilised.

I recounted the anecdote to an English friend in Exeter, Devon, some minutes ago and he thoroughly enjoyed it, a good laugh,
an interesting comparison with the boorish jeering common on Scotsman threads fom those who say they love Scotland and wish to protect it from itself.

What is also disappointing (and predicable) is the rush to defame other countries so that Scotland stays second-rate, no different from Ming Campbell demeaning the First Minister without realising he was insulting the US government. Now you know why I call you Scotland-haters. Perhaps it's a case of hating yourselves more.

Col-Blimp, many thanks for your measured response.
305

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 22:04:38
"They can now make their own minds up, whether to permit the US to base troops on their soil...based on is it advantageous/ advantageous to us?" (Blimp

Absolutely correct.

If the base gives them needed revenue they might extend its lease, if not they are free to dictate their foreign and domestic policy as it suits Greenland.

We in Scotland might want US bases removed but as Blimp attests there's not much we can do beyond engage the USA in a dialogue to put our case ... unless Scotland was independent, like Greenland. I wonder if that that idea entered Campbell's head and scared him to death - Salmond suggesting to Clinton a new relationship would be a good thing?


306

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 22:14:16
Oh, and they have a 50/50 split on Oil revenues arranged with Denmark." (BlimP

Right, again!

Another dividend to the ending of their union - pleasantly negotiated and agreed. The kind of renewed relationship Scotland and England could have, one based on a balanced set of needs, if only Westminster acknowledged what full democracy actually means and went as far as instituting it, rather than the less than half-measure of Devolution. Then Scotland will be free to solve problems its own way in its own time, solutions different from England, even if some problems are shared.

I can see our Lords in London tire of the struggle, hit hard by the collapse in the economy ... that might cause them to pause and wonder if an independent Scotland would be in a better position to help them when help is so dearly needed. After all, when England falters who come to its aid?


307

,

19/03/2009 22:20:00
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308

brownlie,

19/03/2009 22:21:28
341 Col. Blimp

Evening, Colonel, interesting that they can make their mind up as to whether to have a US base on their territory or not. It's a shame the indigenous people of Diego Garcia cannot do the same. Well, they can't because they were chased off their land by their colonial masters to facilitate a US Base. Can you guess who their colonial masters are?

309

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 22:26:46
"The ability to make up our own minds, how to act on matters that effect us - that is all Independence is...more or less." (Blimp)

Well, that and the only political mechanism known that ensures progress, rights written in stone, cannot be diminished or withdrawn on a whim by a dominant neighbour.

"I wonder why the Unionists find the prospect so unpalatable?" (Blimp)

With some minor exceptions I do not think I have come across a post from a Unionist explaining how freedoms are greater within the Union than without. That issue is a serious one, yet I don't think either BBC or Channel Four, or a newspaper in the UK has addressed it.

But then, what intelligent person looks to a web forum for that sort of enlightenment? It is normally provided in learned essays, not glib blogs.
310

brownlie,

19/03/2009 22:36:19
350 Col. Blimp

Surely not, in view of the UK's even-handedness in sending a Task Force to protect the Falkland Islanders? I did hear a scurrilous rumour that a discount on the purchase of Polaris missiles were on offer in gratitude for a bit of co-operation over the matter of Diego Garcia.
311

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 22:41:29

"10% of the shame is ours." (Blimp)

I yearn for the day we can decide on our own foreign policy.

I note BBC is doing its best to show there is a difference in domestic policy between our two nations, usually with a sidebar comment stating, "This issue is different for Scotland." But the weight of news items is still far greater for England. If you log onto today's Washington Post and type "Scotland" in the search bar you will lose count of the articles about us, a tremendous amount celebrating our culture.

The Scottish press has a great deal of work to catch up to boost Scotland's confidence. So far it's full of uncertainties, scorn, criticism, and fear mongering.

They don't instigate it, of course. They only "report" the news. And they classify whimsical kailyard items - granny swallows her budgie - "balance."
312

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 22:48:21
LoL
313

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 22:52:43
Aye right, Rab The Ranter™@327. Body copes with a pint an hour. MacAskill released after missing the game. Perhaps we should see the minutes on that.

Work out the times and the verdict yourself before you rant like a dummy.

Vincent-W @ 347,

pompous
supercilious
arrogant
insulting
snide
sarcastic
hypocrite

Have you ever looked in a mirror - apart from the "Mirror, mirror on the wall"?
314

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:01:34
353 Col. Blimp

I'm sure they appreciate the "union dividend".
315

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 23:04:50
Thanks, Jock. You don't come across many over-zealous Unionists on websites good at self-awareness.
316

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:08:14
357 Col. Blimp

Rubbish! George was treating the lady to a Highland Fling and the old lady stood on his toe and was promptly arrested and spent 90 days in the secret prison on Diego Garcia that nobody knows about.
317

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:09:31
357, ColB. Good question. What is the answer? Can't say I recall any mention of it in this newspaper though.

318

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:14:29
360 Jock Tamson

Let's put it this way, George and Mike Watson will lose out on their "slopping out" money. I wonder if they can claim it on expenses?
319

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:14:58
358, Los Angeles. No need for thanks. You come over as supplying information.

I just moan when the information is perceived as something to be put down by Brit Nats.
320

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:19:29
Talking of Watsons, brownlie@362, did forensics ever examine the curtains for DNA of the Watsonfire of that ilk?
321

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:20:34
364 Col.Blimp

Don't believe that Independent _ I was the old lady in question. This was before the op, of course.
322

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:23:19
365 Jock Tamson

I'm glad you've moved on to a 'lighter' subject.
323

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:25:53
http://tinyurl.com/77ocqc

There you go ColB@364. £1050 fine - the dastard would have recouped that in expenses in no time.

Shame about the Scottish press though.
324

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 23:27:32
"Something to be put down by Brit Nats." (Jock)

It's the way they demand answers to inane questions.

You resist the badgering, accede, provide thoughtful information, and get a torrent of hostility in reponse.

They are lost unless posting spit.

The other aspect that marks them as slow witted is their assumption nationalists and SNP members never question SNP policy, or ever disagree with Salmond's view and tactics. It's stultifying wading through the verbiage to get to reach reasoned comment.

325

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 23:33:09
"The Watsonfire" (Jock)

Is this the drunk Labour MP who set fire to drapes at Prestonfield House and in full view of CCTV camera? It was reported on US television news, repeated on comedy items. Must be a standard on YouTube by now.
326

RufusT-Firefly,

19/03/2009 23:35:56
352 Los Angeles,19/03/2009 22:41:29
"But the weight of news items is still far greater for England. If you log onto today's Washington Post and type "Scotland" in the search bar you will lose count of the articles about us, a tremendous amount celebrating our culture."
=======================================================

What a lot of horse manure.
Against my better judgement, I did just that and in the first couple of pages it comes back with;

1)Liverpool grabs 1st win at Man United in 5 years

2)Canada helicopter carrying 18 ditches in Atlantic

3)Bangladesh lifts YouTube ban imposed after mutiny

4)MLS Season Preview: Season Overview and Team Capsules

5)UK terror suspect wins payout for police beating

Los Angeles speaking tosh as usual.

"you will lose count of the articles about us, a tremendous amount celebrating our culture."

HAHAHAHAHAHA

There is not one article.

Los Angeles you are a chump.
327

,

19/03/2009 23:36:00
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Reason:
328

,

19/03/2009 23:36:11
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329

,

19/03/2009 23:39:53
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330

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:41:25
See Groucho is hovering - awaiting the next edition.

Mosquito by nature.

Easy to swat.

Vincent-W back for some more bad mouthing.

Rather amusing. So predictable. So sad if they are not getting paid for doing this.
331

RufusT-Firefly,

19/03/2009 23:44:59
376 Vincent-W,19/03/2009 23:39:53
Rufus - your style ain't too hot either.
===============================================

Well I wont be childish and say your posts are poor because you had a dig at me.

Your posts have been excellent today.
332

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:45:50
373 Rufus T.

That "UK" terror suspect must have beaten a few police to be awarded that much money. Was there nothing about the saviour of the world on the first two pages?

374 Vincent

Give it a rest, mate, it's getting boring.
333

RufusT-Firefly,

19/03/2009 23:45:56
377 Jock Tamson,Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:41:25
See Groucho is hovering - awaiting the next edition.
======================================================

You don't have to hover and await for the next edition when you work at the Scotsman.
334

RufusT-Firefly,

19/03/2009 23:46:59
Hi brownlie.

Been busy at work, just catching up.

The terror suspect payment is a shocker.
335

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:48:05
And now Groucho appears. You have to laugh. They have not yet realised how rumbled they are.

Wooden stakes at dawn.
336

Los Angeles,

19/03/2009 23:48:24
"See Groucho is hovering - awaiting the next edition." (Jock)

LoL. He comes across as a prize balloon, the clown in residence, Psycho Sam with a red nose and size 16 shoes.

I can imagine Unionists at Westminster slack-jawed counting his Internet droppings and thinking, "Hell, who chose him for our side?"

337

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:49:53
378 Rufus

Now, Now, it's not like you to resort to sarcasm.
338

Andrew Horton,

19/03/2009 23:51:16
Jock, wazzock has had a problem with LA since he started posting at the herald. LA and I had a few arguments when I posted as Celtic Lion, and we disagreed on posting style, but neither of us have been obsessional with each other as wazzock has been with LA (though I do hear LA keeps a photo of me in his wallet at all times).
339

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 19/03/2009 23:51:52
379, ColB. That is disgusting.
340

RufusT-Firefly,

19/03/2009 23:54:31
384 Los Angeles,19/03/2009 23:48:24
LoL. He comes across as a prize balloon, the clown in residence, Psycho Sam with a red nose and size 16 shoes.
====================================================

You stick to your fantasy land Washington Post, Los Angeles.

Just pretend to yourself that Scotland is a big news story on there.

"you will lose count of the articles about us, a tremendous amount celebrating our culture."

HAHAHAHAHAHA

LOS ANGELES YOU IDIOT!


341

brownlie,

19/03/2009 23:56:44
388 Rufus

Enjoy your night-shift. Don't keep the Sky customers waiting too long!!!


Oidche mhath - in your favourite language!
342

RufusT-Firefly,

19/03/2009 23:58:57
Good night Brownlie
343

Los Angeles,

20/03/2009 00:01:36

If it's the same Psycho Sam of old, local sadist and clown, (cheap rates for children's parties) he will post endless tripe through the wee sma' hours.

Oh jings, crivvens, look wha' the SNP have gone a done now. (Trips over his own heel) How incompetent can a government be? (Honks car horn between his thighs) They couldn't boil an egg. (Stands up - slips on a cowpat - falls head first into pail of rat
droppings.) "Those are my blogs!" he screams, staring at the contents of the pail. (Uproarious laughter from kids in audience) "Stop it" Or I kill you!" he shouts back.

344

RufusT-Firefly,

20/03/2009 00:05:54
Look at post 391.

Los Angeles is clearly on drugs.
345

AJM,

20/03/2009 00:07:53
Los Angeles I see that you never refuted that the post in #328 was a load of rubbish, but your justification is that it made an English person laugh. I hope you have had the decent thing to tell your friend that it is a pack of lies and never took place or send him the l ink to this thread so they can see what a fool you made of them.

The Danes are clearly a benign colonial power that has left greenland with the highest suicide rate in the world.

In your attempt to run us all down and an myopic view of anti british view you cease on any morsel and try and breath anti UK life into it.

This awful British colonial past that had Mozambique a former Portuguese colony join the British Commonwealth and I think still has several countries trying to join.

346

Corky,

20/03/2009 00:14:00
Just back from a shift at the co-op and thought I'd check the news and gather some inteligent coments.

Is this some sort of end of shitf lovefest? That Los Angles guy is really up his own arsium.

Could you 'grown ups' sort it out before tomorow - you're not much of an example to us youngsters!
347

Los Angeles,

20/03/2009 00:14:28
"In your attempt to run us all down" (AJM)

Stop being silly. If the wind blows you'll end up like SJ Perlman's fantasy - Firefly, a creation now bastardised into an Internet thug doing all he can to screw Scotland.
348

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 20/03/2009 00:14:33
386, thank you Andrew Horton. I have been around these sites for a few years now but I did seem to have missed out on the interaction you mentioned.

Did you know that wazzock is a bdastardisation of a French word for a bird? Oiseau.

I first heard it being used in London in the mid 80's when a South African with road rage used to shout "Silly Oiseau" -silly bird at daft female drivers. The ones with no spatial concept = all of them.

The plural of oiseau is oiseaux - wazzocks. The singular being wazzock. In demented English that is.
349

Los Angeles,

20/03/2009 00:15:52
"thought I'd check the news and gather some inteligent coments." (Corky)

"Inteligent coments"? Then you failed.
350

,

20/03/2009 00:17:34
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Reason:
351

Los Angeles,

20/03/2009 00:21:58
"I have been around these sites for a few years now but I did seem to have missed out on the interaction you mentioned." (Jock)

Me too. LoL

Curious how people keep popping up to say hello in the oddest of ways. Well, Jock, the thread is losing momentum as bloggers lose sight of the topic and start talking about themselves, and alcoholics take over.

See you on the next one.

352

RufusT-Firefly,

20/03/2009 00:25:00
Bad news for Jock.

Los Angeles is cyber-stalking him.

Get yourself a new moniker Jock. It is the only way you will shake him off.

353

Andrew Horton,

20/03/2009 00:26:57
396, Jock I did not know that. I know that wazzock was the last man in the UK to use "wazzock" seriously as an insult though -- to all the "trolls" who dared argue that the Olympics were political. And from that spat came the Great Obsession of 2008-2009 (yes I remember useless things).

But I'll learn how to pronounce "oiseau" and relate your explanation of the word to some young filly at a cocktail party. It will make me tremendously more popular and a greater catch than I already am.
354

,

20/03/2009 00:31:48
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355

Los Angeles,

20/03/2009 00:50:33
Night, night, pyscho. LoL
356

,

20/03/2009 01:01:35
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357

,

20/03/2009 01:03:02
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Los Angeles,

20/03/2009 01:08:23
Night, night, son of Psycho. LoL
359

Andrew Horton,

20/03/2009 01:42:01
Wazzock the reason I remember your little spat was because you were so hilarious to laugh at and didn't realise it. Some things don't change. LA is not my storm trooper, he's too keen on unionist bashing while I prefer to discuss matters -- which is why I rarely bother to post any more preferring to speak to people face-to-face as well as other more useful things for the SNP than cat-fighting on forums such as this.

You used to claim to be a sports coach, but I care as little for what you do as I care what LA does. I'm only posting tonight as I was waiting on someone getting back to me on something a little more important as to whether or not LA is a journalist or not.
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,

20/03/2009 07:53:01
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Andrew Horton,

20/03/2009 12:02:56
You don't seem to be understanding this Vincent. I don't care what you claim to be or do, I don't care what LA claims to be or do, and he is not my boy. I would have thought my normal absence from this forum would have cleared away any paranoid delusions you might have had about that.

I don't come here to make friends, or take out years of childhood bullying on strangers in safety, or to thrust a proverbial manhood into unwilling faces, or to ride a high horse to God knows where. I came here while waiting for someone to find any interesting posts by interesting people such as wardog or tris, not to get embroiled in your fanciful obsessions. But in their absence I was bored and amused that you're still, after all this time, yapping after LA like a little dog -- "You're a troll, you're a troll, you're a troll."

Tell me more of this "clear off-line understanding" you seem to have discovered.
362

,

20/03/2009 12:43:25
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Andrew Horton,

20/03/2009 13:14:08
Thanks Wazzock, but I'm as free to ignore them as I am free to openly laugh at you too -- and not in a secret way you paranoid oaf.

You've given more credit to LA than I ever have but I don't feel the need to chase after people on forums making accusations. Live and let live and all that. One of the "illuminating" people you specifically mention used to irritate me but I was still capable of ignoring or conversing like an adult, only passing criticism when that person tried to pass the same high horse commie bull onto me. I don't feel the need to chase that person around or accuse you of collusion or any of your other nonsense. But you seem to have had a problem with LA since he and I were discussing the politics of the Beijing Olympics and you called us both trolls for daring to mix politics with sport.

But please don't grow up. You are hysterical and I might find more time in the future to poke you with a little stick. Oh and "they" really are listening.
364

,

20/03/2009 15:55:05
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Los Angeles,

21/03/2009 01:40:29
he's too keen on unionist bashing while I prefer to discuss matters" (Horton)

You do me a disservice.

You try posting a paragraph of sound sense on a specific issue and have it followed by three hundred "HAHAHAHAHAs" - kind of, off putting to good discourse, don't you think?

My weakness: I do not suffer fools gladly.

So much of what I read on forums I heard decades ago, argued decades ago, answered decades ago, entertained it too often.

There are genuine dissenters out here in the wide world, people uncertain if independence regained will make the difference, unknowing of the rights and remdie Scots do not have under the present fractured political system, keen to be convinced. Those are the people I want to talk to, not Internet fascists drape in Union Jacks, spouting an alien culture and values.

The fight for Scotland's rights is at a deadly serious stage and to be confronted by the same infantile adolescence I thought long banished is a pain in the proverbial ass.

I know you feel the same: The idea we should allow mourselves to get seduced by their brutal banter in the hope we might alter their attitude is delusional.

But I am grateful for the slap you give the Vincent blogger. I have no idea why he should choose me as flailing post. His rants are idiotic and self-deafeating.

 

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