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Wendy: 'Bring it on'



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Published Date: 05 May 2008
WENDY Alexander yesterday announced the biggest U-turn by Scottish Labour for generations by backing a referendum on independence.
In the clearest sign yet that the Scottish public will be given a vote on separation, Ms Alexander moved to "call Alex Salmond's bluff" and support his referendum demand. She believes calls for independence would be defeated in a vote, removing it from the political agenda for a generation.

"I don't fear the verdict of the Scottish people – bring it on," Ms Alexander said yesterday.

Sources close to the Scottish Labour leader revealed she had been considering the major policy reversal for some time but had wanted to discuss it with colleagues at Holyrood and Westminster – including Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister – before reaching a final decision.

Ms Alexander has now made that decision and given her support to a referendum as early as next year, although she believes it is wrong to wait until 2010, as the SNP wants.

Mr Brown is cautious about backing a referendum. However, The Scotsman understands the Prime Minister has not made a decision on the issue yet.

Others in the Labour Party have been more forthright and have urged Ms Alexander to "call the SNP's bluff" by demanding a referendum as soon as possible.

Andy Kerr, the former health minister and one of Ms Alexander's closest front-bench colleagues, has backed a referendum for some time.

It is understood the move also has the support of several Scottish Labour MPs and a growing number of MSPs at Holyrood.

Ms Alexander wants to use the findings of the Scottish Constitutional Commission as a springboard for a referendum.

Sir Kenneth Calman's commission is due to produce its first report in the autumn. Ms Alexander believes its findings could then be put to the Scottish people, as part of a three-question referendum, organised by the Westminster government.

Scots voters would be asked whether they supported the status quo, the Calman recommendations – which are likely to suggest more powers for the Scottish Parliament – or outright independence.

The referendum could take place as early as next spring but is likely to be at least 18 months away, if organised by the Westminster government.

Ms Alexander is confident the Scottish people would back the Calman recommendations, not full independence.

The First Minister has already conceded that a referendum on independence would be a "once in a generation" event and, if he lost, he could not hold another one for about 20 years.

But Ms Alexander's move is a considerable gamble and a high-risk strategy for Labour.

Yesterday, the Scottish Labour leader said her message to Mr Salmond was: "This is your policy – have the courage of your convictions to bring it forward and let the parliament make up its mind."

Ms Alexander said "tactical discussions" had taken place with UK government ministers on the subject.

And she went on: "It is worrying that the SNP appears to be toying with the electorate by saying, 'We want this, it's the reason we came into politics, but we are frightened to bring the matter forward'.

"I don't fear the verdict of the Scottish people – bring it on."

Her decision to back a referendum on independence leaves the Calman commission in a difficult position, as this is the one constitutional option that Sir Kenneth has not been asked to examine.

It also leaves her Conservative and Liberal Democrat allies, who came together to create the commission, as the last two parties resisting calls for a referendum on independence.

Last night, Robert Brown, a Lib Dem MSP, said: "Wendy Alexander's suggestion is manifestly based on tactics, not principle, and is a panic response from a Labour Party in free-fall after last week's English and Welsh elections.

"Politicians should not support referendums on policies which they do not back. That is why the Liberal Democrats could not form an administration last year with the SNP."

He went on: "It is bad enough we have to put up with Alex Salmond's constant humbug about a referendum on independence without the Labour Party thinking they can use one to call the SNP's bluff. The political point-scoring from both parties is unacceptable."

Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, said that, while she was encouraged by the Scottish Labour leader's move towards a referendum on independence, the SNP was committed to holding the plebiscite in 2010, not sooner, as demanded by Ms Alexander.

She said: "The Labour Party is cracking under pressure on the referendum question, and is being forced to consider supporting the right of the people to choose Scotland's future. Wendy's remarks simply add to Labour's disarray in Scotland."

Ms Sturgeon added: "The policy the SNP put forward is that the right to choose Scotland's future belongs to the people – which is why we published the 'National Conversation' white paper last summer, so people can consider and debate the issues, and then decide in a 2010 referendum."

'Ordinary' Brown reaches out to public in fightback bid

ROSS LYDALL


GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, yesterday sought to reconnect with the British public by emphasising he came from a "pretty ordinary background" and understood their struggle to cope with soaring household bills.

He insisted he was the "right person" to lead the country, despite a Labour mauling in last week's local elections, and promised new policies on housing, health, education and the constitution. He also kept alive the possibility that a 2p per litre fuel tax rise postponed from last month until October could be scrapped altogether.

Mr Brown gave two television interviews in which he accepted the blame for the government's poor showing and said he felt the "hurt" of families struggling to meet ends meet.

But he admitted he lacked the public persona of Tony Blair, his predecessor, or David Cameron, the Tory leader, as he was "a more private person".

Mr Brown accepted blame for the loss of 311 councillors, the London mayoralty and Labour winning only the third highest share of the vote, behind the Tories and the Lib Dems.

"I feel responsible," he said. "There are no excuses on my part."

He said a Cabinet reshuffle was not his "first priority".

But Alan Duncan, the shadow business secretary, said: "If that was a fightback, Gordon Brown is now in deeper water."

Mr Brown's comments came as Frank Field, the former Labour welfare minister, said he would put down another Commons motion on the 10p tax outcry demanding clarity for the 3.8 million people the Prime Minister admitted yesterday had lost out.

John McDonnell, a Labour back-bencher, ruled out running as a "stalking horse" against Mr Brown but said the party faced a "deep-seated malaise". He added: "We cannot spin and relaunch our way back to popularity."

Winner set to take all in big gamble by Labour

ANALYSIS: HAMISH MACDONELL


WENDY Alexander's decision to back a referendum on independence represents the biggest gamble by a Scottish Labour politician in living memory.

If the SNP gets its referendum and goes on to prove there is a demand for independence, it could finish Labour as a political party in Scotland.

However, if, as Ms Alexander believes, independence is defeated in the plebiscite, it could prove the most masterly of political moves, by robbing the SNP of its raison d'être and its biggest weapon.

The stakes could not be higher, so why has Ms Alexander taken this decision?

Once again, Alex Salmond has goaded Labour on to his territory.

He raised the prospect of the 2011 election campaign being dominated by the issue.

If the First Minister's attempts to hold a referendum on independence were voted down in the Scottish Parliament, as is expected, he promised to go to the country, arguing that the unionist parties had refused to let the Scottish people decide their own future.

Worried about this, Labour has moved, and Ms Alexander has now decided to back a referendum, if only to prevent the Nationalists using the issue in the next election campaign.

However, it is a gamble that, if it fails, will cost the Scottish Labour leader more than merely her job.

The full article contains 1361 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 04 May 2008 11:05 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish Labour Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

04/05/2008 22:34:13

Wow,

What a week.

Brown given his redundancy notice, and Scotland is to get a vote on Independence. A week certainly is a long time in politics. Who would have thunk it?

Any floating voters out there decided which way to vote yet ?

Interesting times.
2

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 00:06:35
Now that SLAB has put me into a cold cold sweat by making me think about independence v's the comforting apron strings of Wendy, Gordon, Jackie Baiile et al, I've naturally taken extreem fright at the prospect of going it alone and will vote for the status quo and the old certainties of life under labour in perpituity.

NOT !
3

Richardinho,

05/05/2008 00:09:06
Well it looks like Wendy's finally cracked.
Pretty pathetic that she only wants a referendum cause she thinks it will benefit the labour party-not because it will benefit Scotland.
I see that a massive new oil field has been discovered in Scottish waters. Maybe this time, Scotland can benefit from this.
4

Richardinho,

05/05/2008 00:13:49
'However, if, as Ms Alexander believes, independence is defeated in the plebiscite, it could prove the most masterly of political moves, by robbing the SNP of its raison d'être and its biggest weapon.'

Not really. A 'no' vote is not going to change my mind. I don't mind waiting another 20 years for the next one if that's what it takes. The SNP's biggest weapon is that they stand up for Scotland, whilst wendy takes all her orders from Westminster.
The key phrase in this article is; 'the Prime Minister has not made a decision on the issue yet.'
How amusing if Gordon decides to slap her down on this!
5

Richardinho,

05/05/2008 00:16:54
Hopefully the SNP wont move to quickly on this. If Labour have shown their hand, we should let them sit for a while and see what happens before we make our move. We've had 301 years of waiting, we can wait a wee a bit longer!
6

,

05/05/2008 00:17:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

subrosa,

05/05/2008 00:17:55
Decide in haste, repent at leisure - or such like. I'm sure Alex will play it his way regardless of Wendy's so called bluff. Thought there was something in the air when I viewed the Politics Show earlier. Obviously the question had been set up because when Glenn whatever asked it I could see her bristling with importance.

Her hatred of the SNP was so clearly visible by the way she continued to say "The Bill' with contempt. Pathetic.
8

Al Ford,

Insch 05/05/2008 00:26:24
"Once again, Alex Salmond has goaded Labour on to his territory." Well done, Ms Alexander, you have taken the bait.

I don't see the SNP government changing their timetable to accommodate you, however. Do you? So you will have to try to outflank them by getting Mr Brown to organize a referendum for you at a time of your choosing. Will he be able to make up his mind in time?

Bring it on, as you put it. Let us see what questions will be put and what conditions will be applied. (We haven't forgotten the infamous 40 per cent rule that was attached to the first devolution referendum.)

A referendum to save the Labour Party's bacon? Not exactly a noble cause. The panic button has been pressed.
9

Vivas,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 00:29:16
"Ms Alexander is confident the Scottish people would back the Calman recommendations, not full independence."

Further proof if any were needed that Broons *already written* "the Calman report". The 15 numpties just need to put their name to it when instructed to do so.

10

Sanny,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 00:29:33
This is really the nuclear option for Scottish Labour: “If we’re going to go down we will go down in a blaze of glory”.

If as planned by Salmond, the referendum issue is put before the parliament at the end of a (hopefully) successful SNP period of government; if agreed, then there is a high probability of success on to two option referendum. If refused, then Salmond can go to the country with the cry that the ‘other party’s’ are denying Scotland a democratic choice. It’s a win-win situation for the SNP.

By calling for an early referendum Wendy hopes to catch the Scottish electorate in an indecisive phase and to muddy the waters further by introducing a multiple choice question; in the hope that the electorate will go for the middle and less extreme option of undefined greater powers.

This is really a last ditch defence by a discredited party – all three – Labour LibDum and Tory – to deny the Scottish Nation their birthright. We will not let it happen!!

It is disgraceful that the once proud Socialist movement that started in Scotland will be led into oblivion by this harridan who is not fit to claim the mantle of men such as Hardie, Maxton or Shinwell.
11

baffies away,

05/05/2008 00:30:47
She is calling for the referendum right away because by 2010 it is likely we will have a Tory Government in Westminster which increases the chances of he referendum being succesful. She is a Unionist and Labour will never rule at Westminster without the Scottish MP's, sounds like they have conceeded the next election and are trying to safeguard their longer term futures, very very risky given the general incompetance of SLAB at the moment. To me it looks like she is running around after the SNP again, once again they have made her look silly.
12

Vladimir Ilyich,

05/05/2008 00:37:23
#14, get them ov,

Would that be a problem for a poster on this board, like?
13

catgut,

pomona 05/05/2008 00:38:58
last squeek from wendy before she and her party get flushed down the gludge.
they can't afford to wait too long as they are going to get kicked out in england, then the result of a referendum is far from clear.

Poor old sir ken what is his talking shop going to come up with now as independance was not one of the answers that they were supplied with.

The independence tide is coming in what can stop it.

#18 i agree
14

Senga Jean,

05/05/2008 00:39:24
She hates Scotland and like Broon wants only British interests to triumph. She thinks she can get the crooked question asked. " Do you wish Scotland to be alienated from averything you love and hold dear and will not get Eastenders anymore and your granny in Essex will never see you again" is not the question Wendy. Get real.
15

James Annand,

05/05/2008 00:44:42
Stunned doesn't even begin.

All that "We'd better not have a referendum or we'll end up like Quebec" horlicks has been shown to be so much spin.

What of the 'neverendums'? What of the financial oblivion that would be the result of any referendum?

Does that go out the window when you need to win a pretendy poll? By that I mean that I believe that she's planning to have three, or maybe six, answers to a begubbined question.

In any case, I would prefer to see what she really means by this before I jump up and down with glee that I might finally be able to vote on a real future for this nation.
16

Richardinho,

05/05/2008 00:50:09
Another point; if it's a three way question, then that considerably softens the blow of a supposed 'no' vote against independence. It would also make it easier for independence to get a 'majority' over the 'status quo' question.
If it's one thing we've learnt about new labour, they are awful at organising elections!
17

R. Slicker,

05/05/2008 00:57:22
#30, show's yer's

It would be interesting to embrace the Clydeside Spirit again.

Bring back Jimmy Reid!
18

CRAGman,

05/05/2008 00:57:29
You don't get me, I'm part of the Union - 'til the day I die, 'til the day I die.
19

Richardinho,

05/05/2008 01:01:53
#32
That comment belongs on one of the football threads.shame on you for bringing that on here.

It's likely that it will be a three way question, at least if the referendum is carried out by Labour.

Then again, what will be presented as 'more powers' will probably be the flagpole erecting sort, with some real powers being taken away!
20

R. Slicker,

05/05/2008 01:01:55
The Strawbs
21

Douglas,

Bathgate 05/05/2008 01:06:37
And strangely enough another Strawbs hit was 'Lay Down'. :o)
22

subrosa,

05/05/2008 01:07:10
There could be something strange going on here. Wonder if Gordon is thinking that a referendum on Scotland might be better undertaken at Westminster to let them all vote on it.

I tend to agree with Astonished that they will have to surrender to the calls for one on the EU Treaty if they want to support one for Scotland.
23

Richardinho,

05/05/2008 01:12:13
#42 I'll be happy to tell you exactly why your team are a load of garbage whilst mine are pure dead brilliant any time you like, but on a football thread, here is not the time and place.
24

FS,

Stirling 05/05/2008 01:20:03
A good day for democracy. It's only a shame that it's taken consecutive disasterous polls for opposition parties to make them favour a move which unusually puts the decision in the hands of the people (rather than have supported it willingly).

Sovereignty of the people at last, perhaps?
25

Vladimir Ilyich,

Guantanemo Bay 05/05/2008 01:29:22
I hear Raul Castro is to jack up doctor's salaries to £17 a week.

He's also increasing pensions to £4.40 a month!

What a guy! A Cuban Salmond!

26

Matt there,

somewhere 05/05/2008 01:34:41
"I don't fear the verdict of the Scottish people – bring it on"

Hubris. Clearly not a word in her vocabulary...
27

Vladimir Ilyich,

05/05/2008 01:34:57
Colonel Blimp is a cartoon character.

The cartoonist David Low first drew Colonel Blimp for Lord Beaverbrook's London Evening Standard in the 1930s: pompous, irascible, jingoistic and stereotypically English.

"Gad, Sir", Blimp would proclaim from the Turkish bath, wrapped in his towel and brandishing some mundane weapon to emphasize his passion on some issue of current affairs.

His phrasing often includes direct contradiction, as though the first part of a sentence of his did not know what it was leading to, with the conclusion being part of an emotional catchphrase.

Blimp was a satire on the reactionary opinions of the British establishment of the 1930s and 1940s. Low described him as "a symbol of stupidity, and stupid people are quite nice."

George Orwell and Tom Wintringham made especially extensive use of the term "blimps", Orwell in his articles[1] and Wintringham in his books How to Reform the Army and People's War, with exactly the above meaning in mind.

A more likeable version of Blimp appeared in the classic British film The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp starring Roger Livesey and Deborah Kerr (The King and I). It was made in 1943, when the war was at its height by Powell and Pressburger. The "Blimp" character was named Clive Candy and is not actually called "Blimp" other than in the title. Prime Minister Winston Churchill sought to ban the film due to its sympathetic presentation of a German officer (played by Anton Walbrook), albeit an anti-Nazi one, who is more down-to-earth and realistic than the central British character.

The character has survived in the form of a clichéd phrase — highly conservative opinions are characterised as 'Colonel Blimp' statements.
28

kirk 1,

05/05/2008 01:34:59
Oh my! she's gone and done it good and proper this time. Our friends down south might just have an opinion or two on this subject.

West Lothian question, Referendum on treaty of Europe, and a call to reduce the powers of the scottish goverment, to that of the Welsh assembly if the vote was against independence.

Nationalists will hang her picture in their homes. (above the fireplace of course to scare the bairns)Independence, it's on it's way. Thank you Wendy.
29

Royster,

05/05/2008 01:43:04
There has to be a single referendum with a simple choice. Stay part of the union and close Holyrood or have full independence. Constant referendums do nobody any good. Look at Australia; we have the republicans trying to drum up the issue again after losing the first vote. Scotland should either be a full partner in the union or completely independent. The current Holyrood set-up is a half-way house whih pleases no one.
30

,

05/05/2008 01:46:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
31

Soosider,

glasgow 05/05/2008 02:05:39
Have just watched the Politics show on the BBC iPlayer, Wendy Alexander was on and directly asked about the Sunday MAil exclusive on calling SNPs bluff by having a referendum on independence. Her answer was very revealing as she did not say yes rather it was answered by saying that if the SNP were serious they should bring forward the bill to the Scottish parliament for the referendum. She repeated this point several times.
So is she really for a referendum or is this another bit of gesture politics or is she trailing an announcement she will make in the parliament this week?
32

KampungHighlander,

Jakarat 05/05/2008 03:09:40
Just because Alex Salmond has promised not to try again for a generation if the referendum should fail does not mean that any SNP leader who follows Alex will be bound by that promise.

Does Gordon Brown keep Tony Blairs promises?

He does not even keep his own. (EU Referendum)

The Unionist side have deluded themselves that the referendum is a one off. They will see referendum after referendum any time that Nationalists believe it has a chance to pass.
33

Guga II,

Rockall 05/05/2008 04:24:48
I note that The Mouth of the South had to check with her politicl masters in Westminster first before she made her mind up. Typical, isn't it. It is little wonder that they are called the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch).

I also note that she is so arrogant that she, and the Hootsmon, think that the Unionists will be setting the questions on an independence referendum ("a three-question referendum, organised by the Westminster government." I would have thought that that task was one for the Scottish Government, not her, not the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch), not her Unionist buddies, nor the English government.

The Hootsmon , in this article seems to think that a referendum will be "organised by the Westminster government". Why is this? Moreover, their comment that Maggie Broon has not yet made up his mind is irrelevant. It is nothing to do with him. This arrogant, Stalinist, totalitarian control freak has no right to even think about stopping the Scottish people making decisions on their own future; regardless of whether he thinks he does or not.

As to the timing of a referendum, that again is a matter for the Scottish Government, not London and not The Mouth of the South. This illustrates just how arrogant the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party really are. Somebody needs to remind The Mouth of the South that she is not in power in Scotland.
34

Mr Meddle Muddles,

05/05/2008 05:35:13
I hope the SNP take not and produce there bill later this year.

The problem for Scotland is of course that the SNP hate democracy and could not care less for the wishes of the people of Scotland. Once a no vote is returned to the referendum they will just start the process again.

The SNP, through their single-mindedness, are finished as a serious political party. Can you imagine the SNP governing Scotland within the United Kingdom and accepting the Union as the will of the people?
35

A trace of sodium,

05/05/2008 05:42:58
The SNP and Wendy Alexander are a national embaressment. Let's just have a vote, vote no, and be done with it.

Scotland's real problem is that after a no vote the SNP will continue to try and ruin Scotland out of spite.
36

Phil C,

05/05/2008 06:02:31
While the SNP has to be seen to be pushing for a referendum, they need more time to persuade the many cautious voters who believe traditional party scaremongering. I think that 2 years is maybe the earliest a fair vote on independence could take place. Whatever happens, Labour will try to fudge the issue by putting forward lots of options to dilute the outcome of any vote. Given their obvious lack of organisational skills, they should be kept well away from any decisions! I think it should be a straight Yes or No vote.

As for Wendy- 'Bring it on' indeed! It's not in her power to do so. She should concentrate on her upcoming role in Allo Allo, starring as the Madonna with the big boobies looking for her sausage (see photo). She and the rest of numpty Labour can at last see the growing support for independence, resulting from the SNP's competent performance in minority 'government'. Labour are running scared. You can smell the fear.
37

Damy Ruby,

05/05/2008 06:10:48
Quote : Mr Brown is cautious about backing a referendum. However, The Scotsman understands the Prime Minister has not made a decision on the issue yet. UNQUOTE

The Brown Man cannot make a decision only tax tax tax and spend spend spend!
38

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 06:11:05
#74 & #75

Would you castegate Labour for remaining committed to socialism?

Would you criticise the Tories for remaining true to their core beliefs?

Every party has its own ideology or core values.

You should not be surprised that the SNP will continue to push for independence until it is achieved.

After that who knows, maybe if you dislike the SNP so much and wish them to disappear from the political landscape the best way is to vote for indepenence in the referendum.

As long as Scotland remains trapped in this unequal union the SNP will continue fighting for Independence.

Thats what is called democracy.
39

Royster,

05/05/2008 06:18:47
#78. The union was perfectly fair until devolution. England had more votes than Scotland for the simple reason that more people chose to live there. It's called democracy.
40

Royster,

05/05/2008 06:20:55
If there is a referendum, it has to be the end of Holyrood if people in Sctland vote to remain part of the UK. Why should taxpayers in the rest of the UK invest their cash in Scotland if there is a cash it may secede in 15 to 20 years time?
41

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 06:27:07
The dynamics of the Neverendum reminds me a lot of what a police detective once told me about catching criminals. "They can win the game 10,20 or 30 times. I only have to stay in the game and win it once."

So for all those who claim they are tired of the constitutional squabbles its pretty simple.

If you want to put an end to it vote Yes for Independence in the referendum in 2010.
42

Royster,

05/05/2008 06:30:59
#81. Do you think the unionists wiill disappears with 'Yes' vote to independence? I don't.
43

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 06:32:53
#80

I would certainly hope that the choice in the refendum was as stark as Total Independence or a return to Pre-devolution.

Unfortunately even Wendy and Gordon are not quite that stupid.
44

Royster,

05/05/2008 06:35:54
#83. That would certainly play into the SNP's hands but 'In for a penny, in for a pound'. All or nothing is the way to go.
45

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 06:39:23
#82

"Do you think the unionists wiill disappears with 'Yes' vote to independence?"

Yes, I do. There my still be a few members of the Orange Lodge. Unionist diehards. But after Independence
the fear of change which accounts for most unionist support will disappear.

The Unionist Diehards will probably form their own party, much like the UKIP or BNP. They will never have much political support.
46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 06:50:36
#83

Mind you, since the Government in Westminster is most likely to be led by David Cameron.

The Tories from day 1 have been opposed to devolution.

It is possible that Cameron would give Scotland the choice of Total Independence and a return to Pre-Devolution.

This will allow Cameron to present himself as fighting for the Union based on Tory ideals, while secretly hoping we leave so the Tories can remain in power forever.
47

Teamdroid,

05/05/2008 06:50:58
So many questions to answer here Wendy. A tiny hope that maybe a Scottish journalist will actually ask them:

1. Why did you spend so much effort opposing a referendum previously, and what has happened to your reasons for doing so?
2. Why has your Calman Commission not been asked to look at independence, if you are now proposing a referendum that includes such an option?
3. If a three question referendum is being proposed, will it be a 1-2-3 choice, FPTP, or a "special threshold" required for the independence option?
4. Why not do all this through the National Conversation, which was perfectly open to all, not just peers who bunged you 950 quid? Oops, answered this one for you already...
5. This referendum, it appears, is to be set up by Westminster in 18months. Do you seriously believe Gordon will have any authority at all by then?
48

Blarney,

Helensburgh 05/05/2008 06:56:25
Hey Hamish, what about the story with Alex demanding control of the Oil wealth?
Bit of a distraction this story, the Sunday Mail ran it yesterday, except it was Broon who was talking about a referendum not Bendy.
2011 is the year, a few more years for Labour to dance to the SNPs jig, Yooch!!
49

Alex, Young Laird d' Drumchapel,

Madrid 05/05/2008 07:04:11
I say let's have it now. There's no way the 3 oppostion parties can agree on a defined 'more powers' option in say 100days.

This is panic and is designed to keep Brown in office as 'Britain's Saviour'.

As things stand I think Scotland can win this referendum! I'm ready.
50

Jimmy the Pie,

05/05/2008 07:21:53
#5 Richardinho,

You're right, even in the unlikely event of a no vote, I'll never stop lobbying and fighting for Scotland to be independent - NEVER.
51

yockel,

05/05/2008 07:26:33
You have to hand it to Labour, they are consistent in being inconsistent.
52

Rickie,

05/05/2008 07:29:37
Wendy's not scared of the Scottish public opinion and the Scottish Constitutional Commission have findings.

Bank holiday joy or what.

You do know I am being sarcastic as niether holds true!

First is a panic move second is around 300 years too late...
53

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 05/05/2008 07:36:32
It seems to me that you nationalists can't have it both ways. You want a referendum, Ms Alexander now supports a referendum, and you are criticising her for her U turn. I suspect that when the great R day comes, you will be quaking in your boots.
54

catgut,

pomona 05/05/2008 07:37:26
The question should be

Scotland a republic YES or no
55

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/05/2008 07:39:12
Let's have this referendum!

First let's have a fully informed debate about the pros and cons of independence. For example let's make a list of all countries the size of Scotland which are doing well, and those doing badly.

Let's also have a discussion (and choice)on the logical alternative to BOTH the Union and independence = a Federation of Great Britain.

Then let's have further referenda (either way) so that we can change our minds if things don't work out.
56

happyhibbie,

The Inch, Edinburgh 05/05/2008 07:44:44
I'll vote yes for independence in the referendum, if it happens, only because I don't relish the prospect of the next 50 years of tory rule from Westminster.
57

Carlung,

Haddington 05/05/2008 07:49:57
Exploration of a recently discovered North Sea oilfield has revealed it is significantly bigger than was first thought.
The Buzzard field is now being hailed as one of the biggest finds in 25 years after revised forecasts suggested it may contain more than one billion barrels of oil.

Figures released in January suggest the field, 125 kilometres north east of Aberdeen, could yield around 400 million barrels - 25% more than was forecast when it was discovered.

London will have to move the sea borders again, can't have the jocks having all the money. They might use it benefit the Scottish People.
58

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/05/2008 07:53:11
#97 Recent exploration has discovered oil around Shetland. I hope the SNP will support demands from Shetland for independence from Scotland.
59

David Maclennan,

Aberdeen 05/05/2008 07:53:29
A 3 option referendum on Independence is worthless.

Any Independence referendum should be a simple yes or no question.
60

It's me!,

05/05/2008 08:14:52
I hope her brother Douglas Alexander isn't organising the referendum. We don't want another big b@lls up. Seen more organisation from a Paisley bingo caller.
61

walter,

05/05/2008 08:15:04
Ms Sturgeon added: "The policy the SNP put forward is that the right to choose Scotland's future belongs to the people.

Does that mean the SNP support the people choosing whether Scotland joins or remains part of the EU.
Does it mean the SNP support the people choosing whether Scotland retains the monarchy or not.
The answer to that is a resounding No.
The only reason that the SNP insist that it is the people choice whether to become independent or not is so they can use the fact the unionist do not support a referendum as a way of crying foul at the union.
The SNP want a referendum, they now have the support of Labour and with their 46 seats added to the SNPs 47 seats they cannot lose the vote so why wait.
Lets go for it or are the SNP to scared, have they not had enough time for their promises and policies to collapse allowing them to blame the big bad union for their failures.
62

Calum10,

05/05/2008 08:16:32
Re: "Sources close to the Scottish Labour leader revealed she had been considering the major policy reversal for some time", and "the Scotsman understands the Prime Minister has not made a decision on the issue yet", and "her (Wendy) decision to back a referendum on independence leaves the Calman commission in a difficult position, as this is the one constitutional option that Sir Kenneth has not been asked to examine", and finally "it also leaves her Conservative and Liberal Democrat allies, who came together to create the commission, as the last two parties resisting calls for a referendum on independence."

Too many ifs in this piece. Too many still clearly undecided. However, it does reveal that the Calman Commission was simply set up to block the SNP. Now that Labour are in a panic they have fatally undermined the commission's remit.
63

Brian M,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 08:25:49
Sounds like she's been on the Buckie
64

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 08:41:02
#93
"I suspect that when the great R day comes, you will be quaking in your boots."

Not likely, we all understand that if it fails we just start the process again. If at first you don't suceed. try, try again.

#102

"The SNP want a referendum, they now have the support of Labour and with their 46 seats added to the SNPs 47 seats they cannot lose the vote so why wait.
Lets go for it or are the SNP to scared, have they not had enough time for their promises and policies to collapse allowing them to blame the big bad union for their failures."

All great strategists realize that battles are won before they are fought by carefully choosing the time and place of battle.

This battle will be fought at a time and place of the SNP's choosing. The fact that Labour party is flopping around like a hooked fish only helps things along.

The appropriate time for this referendum is after the next Westminster election and before the next holyrood one. With a minority Conservative government in power in Westminster with marginal representation for Scotland. This is the ideal time to bring down the Union.


65

Red Tower,

Dunoon 05/05/2008 08:45:18
The people who are showing up badly in this matter are the Lib Dems. They appear to do little else than snipe from the side lines.

It was not always so. I remember when the Liberals had a policy on the governance of Britain which many I would suggest would support i.e Britain as a federal state. But seemingly now as Lib Dems they can do nothing but wilt at the suggestion of any real change.

The Lib Dems have had but one fine hour in recent years. That was when they voted against the war in Iraq. Since then then they have lost their bottle.
66

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 08:45:18
That photo of Wendy makes her look like a hooked fish. I think the species is Large Mouthed Bass.
67

Tolle1,

05/05/2008 08:45:33
All the New Labour spin and rhetoric is coming back to haunt them. It is not only Gordon Brown who has to take the blame for the state the UK is in e.g. levels of illiteracy, child poverty, homelessness, individual household debt, gun and knife crime and a high level of house repossessions likely as under Mrs T.

Mrs Thatcher started the bandwagon of the selfish ideal rolling and Tony Blair followed with all his MPs happy to follow on, all the majority of them are worried about now are their jobs.

In 1997 there was high hopes that all the devastation Mrs Thatcher had caused, 15% interest rates, 3 million unemployed etc could be reversed and a more humane style of politics introduced to govern the country, however as the draconian cut by our Prime Minister of the 10p tax band has shown, this government only listen to those who have the power to ensure they are not affected by any political legislation.

There is no doubt it is time for the people of Scotland to be given the straight forward choice of voting yes or no for independence and Labour's panic u-turn move is to try and get the vote as quickly as possible before the real consequences of the last 11 years of this New Labour/Conservative government policies really start to bite.

The majority of New Labour and the other political parties MPs at Westminster are no more interested in the ordinary Scottish person or for that matter the rest of the UK either and time alone will tell if the SNP are any different.
68

Ananurhing,

05/05/2008 08:46:26
Desperate grubbing tactics from a leadership in meltdown. Wendy and Broon are both mortally wounded and in a corner. Brown has reached this stage in record time. Legacy time, now or never, and he's got nowhere to go in Westminster. Last throw of the dice. Unify Britain or die.
I sincerely hope Salmond plays the long game. These two are on the threshold of obscurity, and will be gone soon. FMQ's are going to be a hoot this week.
What a win win win win situation for Alex. Like shooting fish in a barrel! Alex is dancing round them like a matador, choosing his moment for the killer blow. Take your time!
69

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 05/05/2008 08:50:41
98 Rulesbutnotrulers,Federation, not separation 05/05/2008 07:53:11
"97 Recent exploration has discovered oil around Shetland. I hope the SNP will support demands from Shetland for independence from Scotland."

Shetlink Poll on independence for Shetland
For: 37 votes (since May 01 2006).
Electorate of Shetland: 16,954.

A peere bit to geng dere, I doot.


70

paulr,

edinburgh 05/05/2008 08:51:16
Ms Alexander's said ---
"This is your policy – have the courage of your convictions to bring it forward and let the parliament make up its mind."
I may be very naive but I thought the point of a referendum was to let the people make up their minds not the parliament?
71

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/05/2008 08:51:34
Q: Will we get to vote and vote again until we get independence?
A:Yes.

Q: Will we then get to vote and vote again to see if experience makes us want to change our minds?
A: No.

So, it's not a real choice after all, is it? Mugabe would approve.
72

Derick fae Yell,

The Hoose 05/05/2008 08:51:54
PS - 'bring it on'
Wendy's George Bush moment?
73

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 08:58:36
Wow, seems like some of the usual SNP diehards are rattled. And by that useless piece Wee Wendy as well. Not so confident now? Let's delay, it's up to the SNP to decide when. Looks like your arrogant assumptions about the will of the Scottish people are going to be exposed as just that. Yes, let's 'bring on' a simple yes/no referendum ASAP then, finally, will you SHUT THE FECK UP and gi'es peace for 20 years?
74

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 05/05/2008 09:00:08
Very simple answer on why the U turn. Broon is now moving on to his plan X, Y, Z, ?
His days are numbered in London so he is attempting to prepare the groundwork for the time he will have to return and THINKS he will fall into the running of Scotland.
Just wait to see how long before he starts to drop hints about independence for Scotland.
75

Brian M,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:00:29
I think wee Bendy is trying to work a flanker.

Fooled into thinking that Labour will vote for a referendum the SNP bring the bill before the Scottish parliament only for it to be defeated because, surprise surprise, Wendy was fibbing and labour vote against it.

76

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 09:05:35
#117

"Yes, let's 'bring on' a simple yes/no referendum ASAP then, finally, will you SHUT THE FECK UP and gi'es peace for 20 years?"

No
77

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:11:56
#121 KampungHighlander

Well, at least resume your thankless task with some humility and a sense of reality, rather than the laughable self delusion most of you seem to have at the moment.
78

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 09:14:02
114
You would be perfectly entitled to create a re-unionist party, to pressure for that somewhat unlikely cause.
79

Ananurhing,

05/05/2008 09:15:32
117# Draco

Ooooooooooooh! Get her eh! Who's rattled?

Independence is inevitable and you know it. You have to admit that from an SNP perspective, this is a moment to be savoured,.......slowly!

"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence. supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting"

Sun Tzu 5thC B.C.
80

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 09:18:52
122
Methinks the self delusion is all yours.
Do you honestly think that a Westminster Tory Government will not mean Scottish Independance?
81

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 05/05/2008 09:19:35
Wendy's attitude appears to be, "I'm aboard, pull up the ladder and do what I say".

If, and it's still a big if, she really is for the referendum now, then all she needs to do is join the National Conversation.
82

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:22:11
#124 Anurhing

If it's so inevitable, then do as La Halfwit says. There's no reason at all not to. Introduce the Bill tomorrow, you'll now have a huge majority for it in Parliament. This is a moment to be savoured, eh? The biggest decision ever to be made by the Scottish People and you want to make Labour squirm? Very mature. No, you can manoeuvre and delay as much as you like. You can consult the Chinese strategist as much as you like. No matter where and when the battle is, you KNOW you're going to lose. Your bluff has been well and truly called, boy!!
83

FedUpTaxPayer,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:23:10
A surprisingly ballsy move by her, and I'm amazed to find myself in agreement with her.

I also think we should have the referendum. Lets ask the question, and if independence gets a majority, obviously progress down that route, but if it does not, then that's it and we shut up about it.
84

Buckfastleigh,

05/05/2008 09:24:48
"Mr Brown is cautious about backing a referendum. However, The Scotsman understands the Prime Minister has not made a decision on the issue yet." A clear and precise indication of the nature of this Prime Minister: well spotted!

The Tory call is "Mr Dither" but it's worse than that
and we all know it. I just hope he never takes a positive decision on anything serious as it would most probably lead to a disaster.

Just look at his attitude to the Euro € and where he has placed us now with a 20% devaluation and rising prices and more grief to follow.

As chancellor he showed his color as PM he is no better. Will he improve, let us hope he will someday.

It's for the Scots to call a referendum don't wait for Brown! Dither may be his name and Havering is the nature of his approach.
85

Ananurhing,

05/05/2008 09:25:08
127# Draco

I've said it before.......
Schadenfreude! Ye just cannae whack it!
86

HughB,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:25:29
Another superb example of that superior Alexander intellect at work (ha ha).

Anounce it on a Sunday in a bank holiday weekend, when fewer people than ever will be buying the newspapers.

That's a good way to keep it quiet.

Can't wait for the next FMQs.

Labour are on the way out. This is a last gasp attempt to grab the political headlines before they expire.

p.s. It's not up to Westminster when the Scottish people will be allowed decide their own future.
It's up to the Scottish Government, working on Scotlands behalf.


87

Phil C,

05/05/2008 09:25:58
#115 Derick

Don't you mean her Monica Lewinski moment?
88

Rasco,

Inverness 05/05/2008 09:26:03
#9 At the end of the programe did I hear Glenn say to Wendy OK should we read something into that,maybe its just me but the anti SNP BBC softly,softly attitude to Lab.is no surprise.
89

jdships,

05/05/2008 09:26:30
Regardless of one's political persuasion this latest diatribe from Wendy Alexander has destroyed her credibility for ever.
"This is your policy – have the courage of your convictions to bring it forward and let the PARLIAMENT make up its mind."
Oh dear . Is the purpose of a referendum not to allow the ELECTORATE to decide on a paricular subject ?

She has allowed herself to be drawn into A S's territory which no doubt he will exploit politically.
However ,while the SNP has to be seen to be pushing for a referendum, they need more time to persuade the many cautious voters .( myself included)
Think that 2010 is maybe the earliest a fair vote on independence could take place.
90

Prof,

05/05/2008 09:29:00
Another smokescreen from a leader who brazened it out when caught taking illegal donations. When asked to mark herself so far as Labour leader, she said 10 out of 10.
By labour standards she is probably right. By normal standards - 0 out of ten.
Labour has been in control of the West of Scotland for 60 years -net result - industry all but gone, coupled with high unemployment, crime and social deprivation; Low life expectancy and chronic illness.
The response of the Labour party? - tell us how well they done. Absolutely shameless.
91

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:30:29
#130 Anurhing

You neatly avoid the argument and again show that your real agenda in this seems to be some puerile point-scoring exercise with the Labour Party rather than the genuine will of the Scottish people.
92

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 09:32:35
I was just thinking about Roysters comments earlier that the Referendum should be choice between Total Independence or a return to Pre-Devolution with no Scottish Parliament at Holyrood.

I think if that was the case you would have every single MSP campaigning for Total Independence just to save their jobs.
93

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:33:19
#134 jdships

To be fair to Wendy (God, that was hard) I think she means let Parliament decide, as soon as, to go ahead with holding the referendum not on whether or not to leave the Union. Only the people can do that, obviously.
94

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 09:33:24
136
And you side step my point at 125.
95

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 05/05/2008 09:35:55
At the very least this is disrespectful to the Calman commission, set up by Labour. Or did they decide this? Who is Wendy speaking up for here - is it just Wendy? Or is Broon pulling the strings? Mind you with meltdown going on at Westminster he probably won't have much time to think about this Northern Region. If Wendy went it alone she could face an embarrassing rebuff from Broon, who's got quite enough trouble on his hands without this infantile exercise.
96

Number 6,

Germany 05/05/2008 09:36:02
What's the rush Bendy ?. Scared if you wait too long it
will become clear that the scottish people just might fancy it ?. Salmond should tell her to poke it for a while. Let the Scottish people see the SNP in action , that way they can make an informed decision. And that's the fear, as they replace Labour at council level and immediatley improve things.

As we have heard from the plethora of investigations into labour run councils, they are light years behind the SNP in orginisation , control and seeking value for money. Give it another year then "Bring it on".
97

Calum Crubag,

05/05/2008 09:36:09
Why did the Scotsman illustrate this story with a pic from Edinburgh Zoo's new chimpanzee enclosure?

As to the case in point - Labour have been forced here by SNP success. Another 4 or 5 years of insipid Labour/ Libdem govt. would've seen matters remaining as they are. Meanwhile, i'm happy with more powers in the short term on the road to full independenc.
98

Richard M,

Scottish Raj 05/05/2008 09:36:58
Goodbye London, Hello Brussels!
99

The man who speaks in anagrams,

05/05/2008 09:39:15
I hope that the SNP have the guts to produce a bill. Sadly however they leave the impression of being a gutless shower of lay abouts.

Alex Salmond and all the other SNP supporters would rather spend their time in the media speculating and pretending about independence that actually find out.

There is no doubt a no vote would occur and that that result would silence them. The SNP deep down know how happy Scotland is in the union.
100

,

05/05/2008 09:39:44
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
101

Jay Kay,

05/05/2008 09:40:26
Let us ensure that the vote is as simplistic as possible and that brother Graham doesnt get his sticky mitts on the ballot process where confusion reigns.

A vote for Scottish Independance

YES

NO

will suffice, we can then shake of Meester Broon and wee wendy and drill for Oil thus becoming as prosperous as Dubai if only it were that simple.

So why isnt it?
102

The man who speaks in anagrams,

05/05/2008 09:40:40
142 is the point in question. He is pretending Scotland is on the road to independence, we are not.
103

brownlie,

05/05/2008 09:42:45
98 Rules

Independence for Shetlands would pose several questions for us unionists.

If there are further oil discoveries then an invasion by USA/UK forces would be inevitable. Would we be able to sustain this support when we have so many troops in other countries to show that we are still a world power?

How do we doctor the document to show that Jim Wallace and Tavish Scott have stored up weapons of mass deception?

As there is a nuclear station in the far north of Scotland can we show that it is near enough to Shetland to justify the invasion?
104

Ananurhing,

05/05/2008 09:43:06
136# Draco

Avoid the argument? The argument is over. It's been won. Why do you think Wendy and Broon have abandoned what's left of their integrity and scruples. My only agenda in this is independence.
Granted I probably am being puerile, but I cannae help it.
It feels really good!
105

Buckfastleigh,

05/05/2008 09:43:11
144. Do you mean in the European Union? if so YES. Scotland definitely would be a new Ireland.
106

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 09:45:09
I checked the date when I read this to make sure that it wasn't April 1, but it seems to be real. Wendy's lost it big time. She's just handed the SNP a loaded revolver, in the deluded belief that they'll shoot themselves with it, when in fact they're just going to point it right in her face and pull the trigger when they feel like it.

Some Unionist posters here are right - the SNP certainly ARE scared of losing a referendum. Like, duh. They've worked towards this goal all their lives, of course they want to win it, and of course they're right to want to have it at the time when they're most likely to win it. That's not political cycnicism, that's trying to make sure they deliver the policy that they believe in above all others for the Scottish people - independence.

But Labour have just committed suicide. The SNP can control the timing of the vote for entirely legitimate reasons. Labour will presumably propose a multi-option referendum, so we have to wait for Calman's puppet commission to define what the middle option actually IS, which is many months away. And clearly after the commission delivers its full report you have to give the country a decent amount of thinking time to absorb and consider its choices, for this is obviously a momentous decision that shouldn't be rushed. Those two things alone will take us most of the way to 2010 - especially if there's a Westminster election in between, which there almost certainly will be, because Brown can't possibly limp on until the last hour of the last day of the maximum term.

And that's job done, because the thing we need to maximise the chances of independence is the Tories firmly ensconced in Westminster, against a crippled Labour in need of a decade to rebuild their shambles of a party.

Labour can't put the genie back into the bottle now. They've just annihilated their own previous position of "We don't need a referendum, the Holyrood election was a referendum". Having finally admitted that a referendum
107

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:45:18
#139 Conan

If the Scottish people decide that spiting the Conservative Party is the best reason for leaving the Union, then we're a pretty sad lot. The decision to leave must surely be based on the pros of leaving rather than the cons of staying.
108

shivago8,

livingston 05/05/2008 09:45:43
Alex,dont let her turn,the sight might put you off your breakfast.
The new labour are trying to convert back to old labour.
In the meantime B liar just bought his 4th property for a cool 4 million,Tone thats oor dosh
109

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 09:48:39
I never get bored of reading idiots pretending and fantasing Scotland wants indepenence.

151 is a good example of this. He just talks crap for 5 paragraphs without any evidence.

I love the gun analogy and telling us where it's pointing, so relevant and insightful, what is the weather like up your own ass?
110

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 09:52:20
is the right of the Scottish people, they have no option but to vote in favour of it whenever the SNP propose it, and if Labour try to push it sooner than that, the Tories and Lib Dems won't back it, and the SNP will simply force an amendment to the date, leaving Labour with Hobson's choice - comply with the amendment, giving the SNP what they want, or refuse it, showing themselves up as cynical opportunists playing politics with the Scottish people and being crushed in the polls once and for all.

This is the craziest, most desperate throw of the political dice ever seen. Let's all eat some humble pie and raise a glass to the Electoral Commission for ensuring Wendy stayed on to lead Scottish Labour just that little bit longer.



(PS I support independence, but I don't believe it's anything like a certainty that the SNP would win a multi-option referendum even if they controlled the timing of it. However, if the Scottish people are given a free vote on the subject and bottle it, then none of us can complain. At the very [bold]worst[/bold], it seems beyond reasonable doubt that what we'd end up with would be an SNP Scottish Government with considerably greater powers within the UK, and even that would be progress worth celebrating.)
111

Venachar,

05/05/2008 09:52:49
Beano beats The Broons.

Wee Eck trounces Pa Broon on Sky yesterday morning!

Minnie the Minx Sturgeon canes Maggie Broon Alexander on education!

If only it were cartoon characters. Unfortunately Pa Broon and Maggie Broon are the cartoon characters Salmond and Sturgeon are the politicians. The proud organsisation that was the Labour Party is now absolutely useless, Pa Gordon thinks his Cabinet Team is excellent!! Rubbish they are only a bunch of yes persons of no noteable ability and are beholding to Brown for their position, ie I have my back covered.
The constituents of Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath should realise what a dud person Gordon Brown is, a control freak who has the personality of a slug.

112

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 09:53:30
It's polite to wait until someone's finished speaking before interjecting with your witless idiocy, Alfred.
113

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:54:11
#149 Anurhing

More arrogance. The argument is far from over and won. When the Fat Lady of the Scottish people has sung at the referendum then it'll be over. And I suspect her aria will have you weeping.
114

The west awake,

Argyll 05/05/2008 09:54:18
What about the question of the media during a referendum process?
Could it be considered fair and democratic for the SNP to try to convince the Scottish people to vote for Independence in the face of a near-universal anti-Independence media, including this paper and the BBC?
If not, how can we assure fair coverage in the media
115

Alan B,

05/05/2008 09:54:40
This a welcome move from wendy. In many ways if she did not have to have everything agreed by Brown with brown watering down her proposals she could actually offer something positive.

The move for more powers was a good one but the corruption scandal has mean that idiots like cairns and browne have dominated the consitutional agenda. Abolishing barnett and moving to her fiscal federalism would be a good step forward. However even there she seemed to back of to appease brown. Add to that scotland really needs complete fiscal autonomy.

The 3 way referendum is daft and i would not support it. Alex will have to consider his strategy carefully. If all the parties are supporting more powers it would see logical to move these powers to the scottish parliament when the calman report comes out.

The sunday press were all running how a bbc report showed how bad a deal scotland got out of broadcasting. And also reported how people like darling acted to prevent broadcasting be devolved as initially invisaged, as they believe scottish run broadcasting would substantially increase the likely hood of independence. (nothing like trying to control the media). The view being if london selects the stories and issues for scotland to see and we keep seeing politics throught the tory/labour agenda then we are more likely to vote for the union.

As issues like this are addressed with more powers for scottish parliament dynamics will change.

A 3 way referendum will confuse. By adopting the more power option then we can have a real debate about independence. I would suggest the more power option really should be:
1)trains (track and regualation) devolved
2)engery : nuclear and regualations. it matters formulas for electricity charges if u are applying policies. the current one discriminates against both the current and previous scottish governments policies.
3)law and order: firearms, id cards, drugs, detention, without trial etc. why can the scottish justice minister not d
116

Rob,

Moray 05/05/2008 09:54:45
Are we we are about to experience the SNP becoming suddenly deaf and blind? With Brown all but out of the political equation in England and Wales and Labour's decline in Scotland, why is there not a stampede here from the so self confident (of independence) SNP types to get the referendum show on the road? Surely there could be no better time than now? Or are we experiencing a bit of the old nerves ahead of the big show? I really hope not, but do hope that the Tories and Lib Dems will also follow suit on this one - but perhaps it's too much of a no brainer.

This is the only bit of sense spoken by a Labour politician for some considerable time. Let us not miss the moment - let's get on with the referendum - it's time!!! Afrter all, the SNP supporters have been confidently predicting the result in these blogs for years - so let's just do it!!! Now we all agree that "it's time" - time this issue was resolved to remove what is just a huge distraction - so let's see you Nats have the courage of your convictions and get on with it. No ifs, no buts - action now. Surely you don't want to be seen like Brown dithering about the date of an election would you? He dithered because he thought he might lose but since there is no possibility of that in this case, let's be seen as super decisive and get on with it. You apparently already know the result, so why wait? Nirvana can come now - 2008, no more waiting, no more exploitation. You know we can do it - come on people, let's get voting!!
117

Alan B,

05/05/2008 09:55:16
cont..
3)law and order: firearms, id cards, drugs, detention, without trial etc. why can the scottish justice minister not decide how many police should be needed in a police car (absolutely ridiculous).
4)competition policy
5)why could the sp not decide the issue of super casinos itself. all these regualtions that mean that the sp cannot manage without asking permission from westminster.
6)Abolish barnett and adopt fiscal autonomy. Labour will not do that but it will be interesting to see how far they do go.

As i see it would should adopt these type of policies and then I would suggest a single independence question referendum early in the next scottish parliament if the snp remain the largest party.
118

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 09:56:06
157 Rev

Think of my posts like a gun. I can point them up or down or left and right with bullets in them and maybe some wils west spurs and pull the trigger in the face of labour too and independence guns that blow like playing russian roulette and this mean stronger independence guns because that is correct.
119

Ananurhing,

05/05/2008 09:56:42
151# Rev S Campbell

I think that shortly, Wendy will be left alone in a room with that revolver, kindly donated by her colleagues.
120

Bermuda Bie,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 09:56:52
33 slicker (sicker?) Is that the Jimmy Reid that single handedly caused Glasgow's shipbuilding industry to close down?
121

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 09:58:30
Alan B, I'd like you to know you are talking crap.

You sound like Ben Elton, just repeating the same glib topics and names to pretend you know what your on about.

All you do is shoot yourself in the foot with a gun when really thought it was pointing at Labour's face without realising the gun might backfire.

If the gun backfires the shooter actually gets shot, like Alex Salmond.
122

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 09:59:35
#128

"I also think we should have the referendum. Lets ask the question, and if independence gets a majority, obviously progress down that route, but if it does not, then that's it and we shut up about it."

Sorry mate, but that is not how politics works.

The publics attitude to any issue can change.

That is why we have periodic elections.

It is like appointing every MP for Life.

You had your say now shut up.

Sorry but this issue will not go away, there are to many patriots who will continue to support Scotlands Independance regardless of any referendum outcome.
123

Ken Mac,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 10:00:14
Labour/Wendy/Brown have no principles at all. Devolution was designed to keep the Nats down and provide never ending Labour governments in Scotland. Fortunately that didn't work. Only a year ago they told us there was no need to review devolution. They get gubbed at the pols and the new leader decides yes they do need to review devolution to keep the Nats down. Barely have they made this u turn than they start spinning on the spot and after completely refusing to consider the idea of a referendum even on the limited brief of their review now Wendy/Brown supports a referendum on independence! All this is blatent politicking for the benefit (they hope) of the Labour party with not the slightest concern for the people of or the future of Scotland. Excellent! should guarantee another drubbing at the polls. Put the question to bed for another 20 years?, I don't think so. A straight yes-no vote which the Nats would probably lose because there isn't sufficient support YET for independence would put the cause back several years but what if in 2010 a Tory government is in Westminster, a three question referendum to include further powers goes ahead with the further powers option winning, almost inevitable, and The Nats win the 2011 election with increased representation? Game on, put back 20 years?, no, fast forward to independence. Remember you read it here first!
124

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:01:17
#151 Rev Campbell

A country gaining its independence through grubby political machinations and cynicism is pretty squalid.
125

shivago8,

livingston 05/05/2008 10:02:45
Alex,dont let her turn,the sight might put you off your breakfast.
The new labour are trying to convert back to old labour.
In the meantime B liar just bought his 4th property for a cool 4 million,Tone thats oor dosh
126

shivago8,

livingston 05/05/2008 10:03:48
#117.Draco was not a wimp,he is a wimp
127

Venachar,

05/05/2008 10:07:47
Just who is Maggie Broon being rude to in the photo accompanying this article?
128

Alfie the OK,

Occupied England... 05/05/2008 10:08:07
Did Wendy have to explain to Gordon exactly what a referendum is? I do hope so! Then, maybe, possibly, we, south of the border just may be given a chance to decide what we would like also, (for a change)....But obviously that will not happen - and so, we will continue to have Brown's tanks parked upon our English lawns, an occuppying force with no mandate to be there.

I notice in yesterday's exercise in mea culpery, Brown committed to more policies on Education, Health and Transport (all English only, obviously) - oh goody, yet more bungling interference from the man from Kirkcaldy.

Ain't democracy wonderful - I just we in England actually had some from time to time....
129

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:08:51
#171 shivago8

Were you on the Glasgow University debating team?
130

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 10:10:00
Why does the SNP wnat a referendum. The answer will be no. Only 20% of people say they want independence. I think it's time for the SNP on these boards to wake up and stop dreaming.
131

Alan B,

05/05/2008 10:12:39
Wendies decision really does up the anti in regard to Calman commission. To a large extent with browns interference it looked like being a damp squib. Now it really is a commission to save the union.
132

jdships,

05/05/2008 10:12:43
138 Draco Was a Wimp,

I see where you are coming from , but, to the men/women , beside me, reading their newspaper over the toast and tea it comes across as

"............ let the parliament make up its mind."
then
"I don't fear the verdict of the Scottish people – bring it on."

Contradiction in terms - perhaps ?
Or are we just "nit picking "?

Whatever : she is still a liability to her party and Scottish politics.
133

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:14:00
#177 jdships

On that, we are very much agreed.
134

Walter Ego,

Durness 05/05/2008 10:16:18
This is nothing more than a cunning unionist plot. Alexander cannot be trusted. Scottish nationalists must stand fast and oppose a referendum.
135

Sparky,

Hamilton 05/05/2008 10:18:56
I tried to access the SNP website about six times this morning to sign-up for the fight,
but the site is very busy.
136

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 10:20:52
#169 "A country gaining its independence through grubby political machinations and cynicism is pretty squalid."

I very much doubt any country has ever gained its independence by any OTHER method, frankly. Certainly, the only other way it's ever been decided is by a civil war, and I'm sure you'd rather not see tanks on the streets of Edinburgh.

Personally, if we win our freedom in a democratic vote of the people, I'm happy to live with you bitterly calling the process by any names you like.
137

Thistledhu,

Fife 05/05/2008 10:21:37
could not this be a high risk smoke screen to draw attention north away from a crumbleing goverment.?
138

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 05/05/2008 10:22:04
179

Walter, you are spot on. If unionists are wanting a referendum, this must be opposed. The SNP must rally support for an all out campaign against a referendum on independence.
139

Alan B,

05/05/2008 10:23:51
#Alfred

"Why does the SNP wnat a referendum"
Are u really that daft!

U say that only 20% of people want independence but according to Curtis the Strathcyle poll expert on tv the other week saying that opinion polls over the last 9yrs have shown a roughly even split on the question of independence. The fact is we do not really know until we have a referendum. (polls show bigger support for labour against the tories than ever translates onto the elections over the last 30yrs). Many polls show a majority for independence will that translate to a referendum. We all know that the wording in polls makes a big difference. The telegraph poll wording one of the most silly recently.

Probably the most interesting thing is many people support more powers. The big issue will be if the unionist commission does not offer the powers some wnat ie fiscal autonomy which way will they vote. Will they vote for the union based on the fact that at some point the powers they believe the sp should have will come at some point or simply give up waiting.

Those that may vote for indepdence fall into 3 groups
1)those that believe indpenedence is the best model for governing scotland
2)those that are not ideologically against a union but have given up on the uk reforming to be beneficial to scotland.
3)those that support some sort of federalism but are hoping that the union can reform itself.

It will be the last group that will be interesting. Will Calman satisfy them. Could Calman satisfy the second group.

140

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 05/05/2008 10:24:46
183

Patrick, you are correct. If Alexander wants a referendum, we Scottish nationalists must have nothing to do with it.
141

Puling Prince Roman,

05/05/2008 10:26:36
You know, I could have sworn that when he was telling us that we weren't getting a referendum on the European Constitution (after it had appeared as a commitment in the Party's manifesto), Mr David Milliband explained to us all that this was because referendums are "the refuge of despots and dictators".

So, first we can have a referendum. Then we can't, because they're the refuge of despots and dictators. And now we can again.

I wish NuBlab would make its mind up.
142

The west awake,

Argyll 05/05/2008 10:28:08
Rob 161 - The Labour Party have opposed and prevented a referendum for years and now have decided they want one tomorrow.
Why do they want one tomorrow? Have they the good of the Scottish people in mind?
No, it is a shameful ploy. Support for a referendum has been forced on them bacause the Calman Commissions premise of excluding the Independence option can no longer be defended. Given this, and the ongoing implosion of the Labour party UK wide they have cynically decided to try to persuade the wily SNP to go for referendum before Labours position gets even worst.

You will get a referendum, don't worry - because giving the people of Scotland a voice is your main priority, right? I mean the choice of date is secondary eh?

But it will happen when the SNP want it to, and have consistently said it will, 2010 - unlike "Scottish" Labour, the SNP don't dance to anyone else's tune.
143

Venachar,

05/05/2008 10:28:54
165 Bermuda Bie

Glasgow shipyards went on strike - they still build ships, albeit warships.

Greenock and Port Glasgow's shipyards didn't strike - they are now a housing estate and a Tesco's carpark.

Another unfortunate by product of that is Duncan Mc Neil is in Holyrood. Mind you as others have said previously, he's never done a days work in his life.







144

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 05/05/2008 10:28:57
Where is Alex Salmond? He should be welcoming this development and moving the referendum at the earliest possible opportunity.
145

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:30:41
Robert

Exactly. My enemy's enemy's friend, is the enemy of my friend's enemy. Vote Yes to ensure a No result, just in case the No camp are secretly campaining for the Yes side. All because we're so confident in the result.
146

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 10:31:24
184 Alan B

You are talking crap, you didn't mention that 70%+ of Scots wouldn't vote for independence.

I think it's cute tha you log in here to make up "lists" of people who would vote and fantasise about a referendum that will never be successful.
147

Alan B,

05/05/2008 10:32:20
#189 Lance Boyle

"moving the referendum at the earliest possible opportunity. "

Why? He has said he wanted a referendum in 2010 why becuase wendy has done a uturn should he dance to her tune.

Secondy, if u read the story Wendy wants to have the calman option included. Calman will not report until the summer of 2009. So a june 2010 referendum would seem like a sensible date so that debate round calman can be discussed.
148

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 05/05/2008 10:33:08
What are all you "lifelong" SNP supporters saying to this, then? You have been on about a referendum for ever and a day and now you are getting cold feet - just because Alexander says that we should have one. Let the referendum proceed and let us return the romantic notion of independence to the dusty shelf from whence it came.
149

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 05/05/2008 10:34:38
Wendy's right. A pig has more chance of scratching its bum on the Kaa'baa than Scots voting for independence.

Scots talk big, but when their bluff is called they back down.

It'll be left to the English to ensure independence for England.
150

Alan B,

05/05/2008 10:38:08
#191 Alfred

So u are saying that Curtis is wrong when he says the opinion polls should a roughly even split over the last 9yrs?

The latest credible opinion poll showed a majority of those that expressed an opinion poll supported independence. In the months running up to the election last yr the more people wanted independence. After the election support dipped only returning to pre-election levels in the last month.

I know it does not suit u, if the politicians ask the people. They may or may not vote ur way.


151

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:38:47
#Alan B

And what happens if we get to 2010 and Eck's STILL not quite sure if the people will vote the way he wants? Delay again? It's like Mugabe or Bottler Broon. The question is simple, a yes/ no to leaving the Union. If you're all that confident that the Scots are behind you, call it now. There's no longer any impediment to doing so.
152

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 10:42:13
196 Alan B

You are still talking crap, I can't believe it.

If the people wanted Independence the SNP would have a majority, we would have had the referendum by now.

The reason that hasn't happened is because noone gives a shirt about independence.
153

brownlie,

05/05/2008 10:43:43
191 Alfred E.

Out of the jacket for the Bank Holiday?

As our number one unionist poster you have us drooling with your clear-sighted, comprehensive and coherent contribution.

Little wonder that us unionists are so confident of confusing the nats when we ourselves are capable of such convoluted comments.
154

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 10:43:48
#169

"A country gaining its independence through grubby political machinations and cynicism is pretty squalid."

Considering how the Union was originally formed it seems rather appropriate.
155

terry osser,

morden 05/05/2008 10:43:50
english should also vote on independence
156

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 10:44:07
#193 "What are all you "lifelong" SNP supporters saying to this, then?"

I'm saying "bring it on". But wee Wendy doesn't get to choose the day, because fewer people voted for her than for the SNP. The referendum will be held when we know what the options are. If Labour are happy to ignore their own commission and give us a two-option vote tomorrow, then fine. Otherwise, we presumably have to wait at least until we know what "more powers" actually means, wouldn't you agree?
157

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 10:45:11
Woe! Confusion! Despair!

What is happening? I thought we Unionists opposed a referendum - "no one wants one" we cried, "it is a distraction from real issues" we said! Now we want one? How does that help our argument that no one wants one? Now everyone and their granny seem to want one? Because Gordon has said so? What about our commission thing!?!

I am confused! And I am having that nightmare again where Saltires flap in the wind with that creepy background wheezing noise Gordon makes when trying to look sincere in the background. Wendy save us.
158

Alan B,

05/05/2008 10:45:40
#Draco

Salmond has said 2010 from the start so he has not changed his mind or delayed. (not like brown over the election).

He also said he wants a simple yes/no question but was willing to have a 3rd option if that was the only way to get support for a referendum in the scottish parliament.

Wendy has now said that she wants to calman report outcome put as a 3rd question. Calman will not report till summer next yr.

(Personally i do not have a clue about people would vote.)
159

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 10:45:48
I'm amazed.
160

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 10:46:08
#110 Ananurhing

You write "Desperate grubbing tactics from a leadership in meltdown. Wendy and Broon are both mortally wounded and in a corner. Brown has reached this stage in record time."

You're half right. The Labour leadership is in meltdown north and south of the border. They are mortally wounded. But there is no sense of tactics - grubby or otherwise. They no longer know what they are doing or why. Establishing the Calman Commission had a sort of logic - after nine years of devolution get someone distinguished to have a look at the arrangements and see whether any adjustments are necessary, probably in the direction of more devolution. But Wendy's latest outburst is absurd. She has tossed aside the policy on which she was elected and made herself and her party look like idiots.

#151 Rev. S. Campbell
You are right to point out that no constitutional changes are likely to happen until after the next UK election, when there will almost certainly be a Tory government. But I do think that Brown will 'limp along' until 2010 (unless of course he is deposed by his own party). The Tories hold most of the cards but are playing things very cautiously. They have said they are unionists and will not work to undermine the union. Cameron has said he will address the West Lothian question but has not said how. The Scottish Tories have agreed to Calman but have not committed themselves to accepting any recommendations that Calman may put forward.
Personally, I can't see any referendums on anything until after the next Scottish election (2011). Westerminster won't legislate before then. And the Scottish Parliament won't be able to agree the terms of a referendum.
161

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 10:46:09
#201 Whether Scotland wishes to remain in the Union or not is no business of the English. If one partner in a marriage wants a divorce, you have a divorce (it just takes a wee bit longer). Similarly, if the English want to leave the Union, they can demand their own referendum on that and it'd be none of our business either.
162

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 10:49:30
#206 "But I do think that Brown will 'limp along' until 2010 (unless of course he is deposed by his own party)."

Well, that's the issue entirely, I agree. I think the only reason they didn't boot him out on Friday is that they have nobody ready to replace him. But over the next six months that's what Parliamentary Labour's over-riding concern is going to be. They know he can't win, and as soon as they think they've got someone better ready, Gordon will be clearing his desk. I don't see that taking them two years.
163

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:50:44
#200 KampungHighlander

I agree with you there. But, since most of you Nats on here constantly girn that the Union was never really legitimate as a result of the way it was born, I'd have thought to leave it in an equally grubby way would be more hypcrisy than poetic justice.
164

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 10:50:54
Wait! I think I understand! Wendy will put Dougie in charge of the referendum! Genius.
165

Phil C,

05/05/2008 10:51:53
#175 Alfred

I don't know where you plucked out the 20% pro-independence figure from. It must have been one of Labour's twisted and spun-dried polls. The accepted level of support is about 40%, and certainly not far behind the antis, in a straight yes/no referendum. Some polls have even shown a majority in favour.

Of course many will remain vehemently against, as is their right, but many are also changing their positions daily. As long as the target date for a referendum is set towards the end of the SNP's current term and Labour don't try to foist more fudged questions at the electorate, then I think we should all welcome Labour's nervous pronouncements. I think we should start the ball rolling now.

It's too early to make a fair and qualified judgement of the SNP in government. So far most have been impressed with the progress made, even with hands tied in a minority administration. Most people by nature are wary of change. I think that the SNP are winning the argument, but they are also battling against decades of Labour and unionist bigotry, tradition, bias and misinformation. It takes time to show ability and gain trust; to teach and re-educate.

An early referendum as in Wendy's 'Bring it on!!' would be irresponsible and naive. A straight yes (independence) / no(status quo) is the imperative for a fair poll in about two years time. We need a planned, dignified, simple and open process, not a headlong rush into battle.

166

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 10:54:22
Phil C

You are talking crap. Support for independence is 20%. Please stop making things up, you are a minority pressure group.
167

Buckfastleigh,

on holiday 05/05/2008 10:54:45
Clearly holidays are good but instead of staying in astride your computer come and explore the better parts of England and enjoy the sunshine.
168

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 10:55:31
(Times online March 31 2008): A Labour minister said “The main objection to holding a referendum in Scotland is that less than a year ago there was an election in Scotland, where two thirds of voters voted for parties who want Scotland to remain part of the UK.” However, the fact that UK ministers, briefly and informally, spent time discussing the merits of a referendum will come as a surprise to many, especially in the Labour Party in Scotland which, along with the other Unionist parties north of the Border, has set its face firmly against any such test of public opinion on the ground that it is not required.

169

Alan B,

05/05/2008 10:56:28
Publius

"She has tossed aside the policy on which she was elected and made herself and her party look like idiots."

It was McConnell that was leader of the party at the last election. She has just been abit silly saying no over the summer and yes now.

Personally i think it is a good move by her. There was something anti democratic about not giving people a choice and putting the issue to bed.

If it were not for brown stopping her lead and the corruption scandal, things like the calman commission are actually a very good idea. It is the fact that brown along with browne and cairns that meant it got off to such a bad start.

Opinion polls put scottish support for more powers up to 80%. The problem with devolution is that the parliament was created so weakly in the first place. Labours best chance of saving the union is if they go down the mcleish route.
170

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 10:56:35
Alfred, it's a wee bit early in the morning to be drunk, wouldn't you say?

Keep it up, it's fun watching you spin like a ballet dancer as Wendy whips the rug out from under everything you've advocated for the last year.
171

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 10:57:47
I'm STILL amazed.
172

,

05/05/2008 10:57:55
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
173

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 10:59:11
#211 Phil C

'We need a planned, dignified, simple and open process, not a headlong rush into battle.' No, you want to ensure you'll win by manipulating the democratic process for your own ends. And before you say that's what politics has always been about, it doesn't make it any less hypocritical of the SNP. Salmond et al. were first to condemn Broon for behaving like this only a few short months ago.



174

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 10:59:46
'Salmond should stop grandstanding on the constitution and start governing. There is no demand for a referendum' Wendy Alexander, Feb 2008.

Outfoxed them there, eh!! Hahaha
175

Buckfastleigh,

05/05/2008 11:01:17
Will the Queen still be our head of state after independence or can we then vote for the Brown/Alexandra "cream ticket"? Wendy for President and Groandon for Chancellor?
176

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:01:59
"There is no justification for holding a referendum on independence" George Foulkes, Lothian MSP website
177

Alan B,

05/05/2008 11:02:43
#Draco

In what way do u think they are "manipulating the democratic process".

They have called for a referendum in 2010 and have kept to that. They wanted a 2 question referendum but are willing to accept a 3rd question put forward by the outcome of Calman. (personally i would rather a 2 question referendum). Calman will report by the summer of 2009. that would leave a good 9 month campaign from both sides to argue there case.



178

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:02:57
"The SNP's plans for a referendum on independence confirms their arrogance and failure to listen to the people ..." George Foulks, MSP
179

Thistledhu,

Fife 05/05/2008 11:04:21
Any aspirations to have a referendum that have suddenly appeared must be looked at with the knowledge of recent events.
does anyone beleive that scotish labour has taken this bold step without agreement form westminster
more likely westminster has instructed wendy and co to carry out this bold step as a short term panic measure to try and stop labours slide into political obliveon
180

Buckfastleigh,

05/05/2008 11:04:31
When will Wendy win her welcome wish whether to wither or warrant to win: Wallace has won!
181

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:04:52
Are we Unionists starting to resemble Vicky Pollard on the referendim issue? No but, yeah but, no but, yeah but?
182

brownlie,

05/05/2008 11:05:24
214 Uib

There was so much confusion at the briefing this morning that Jackie decided to let Alfred E. out for a while. There was much discord regarding the fact that we now have to change the terms of the Calman Review to include a referendum on the independence nonsense. Will our traditional allies put up with this u-turn and has Wendy considered the difficulties inherent in Jackie turning?
183

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 11:05:46
NEVER .... NEVER .... NEVER!

OK then.
184

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:05:57
"This whole referendum business is a complete red herring". George Foulkes, MSP.
185

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:08:15
"Every minute spent on a referendum is a distraction from more important priorities such as health, education and crime." said Nicol Stephen.

Labour MSP George Foulkes agreed - "Labour will resist their plans at every turn."

186

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:09:26
231. Note George Foulkes said Labour would oppose a referendum at "every turn" not every "U-turn" so you Nats can't say anything along the lines of inconsistency.
187

Phil C,

05/05/2008 11:09:47
#212 Alfred NeuLab

How come you can say I'm talking crap, but I can't say 'my *rse' (removed from #218)!! Unionist conspiracy!!

#219 Draco- We just want to have a fair argument! It started a while ago, if you hadn't noticed. The debate isn't over yet. Two years should about do it. Fair for all sides.
188

Pilrig.,

Livingston 05/05/2008 11:12:46
Westminster is to organise the referendum ? Hopefully Wendy's brother will be have no part in the running of it.
189

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 11:14:41
234 Phil C

I have nothing to do with Labour, I dislike them more than the SNP.

Why do you nats just make up crap to suit your ends all the time?
190

Darien,

Panama 05/05/2008 11:15:56
Perhaps Wendy and the 3 unionist parties have belatedly discovered that their Commission to ignore Scottish Independence is racism under the UN Charter?
191

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 11:17:19
#223 Alan B

Unless the timings of elections are fixed, obviously that are going to be open to manipulation by politicians. I know the SNP have intimated they will hold a referndum in 2010. But, until now, the Unionist parties have been denying them the opportunity to call one earlier. Now there are no reasons why Salmond shouldn't hold a referendum as soon as possible. Forget the 3-way option. I'm with you, it should be a straight yes/no. He can and should call it now. To delay, when he has the power to do so and for no other reason than he knows he won't win, is a manipulation of the democratic process for party advantage.
192

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 11:18:39
#215 Alan B

Good morning Alan
Your post is interesting as your posts always are. But the point is that Labour no longer holds the initiative. It lost the initiative at Holyrood last year. It has now lost the initiative in England. Power has forsaken Labour. Whatever Brown or Alexander do now won't be seen as statesmanship. It will be seen as panic or blundering around in the dark.
Publius
193

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 11:18:51
238 Draco

Salmond doesn't want a referendum, that would reveal the true position of Scotland and the Union, effectively ending his career.
194

Phil C,

05/05/2008 11:20:15
#236 Alfred Oldman

Sorry Alf. Your entrenched and indefensible positions just led me that way.
195

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 11:21:35
#225 Thistledhu

You may be right but I doubt whether Labour in London is well enough organised to give orders to anyone any more. The party doesn't even have a general secretary. Brown's nomineee has just jumped ship.
196

Alan B,

05/05/2008 11:22:35
#Draco

Not sure why u think that having a referendum in 2010 us a "manipulation of the democratic process for party advantage".

I think people also have to be aware of what the unionist commission is offering. U cannot go into a referendum without knowing the options.

We also need a proper period to discuss the issue and have it debated.

Wendy uturn is after all is a bolt out the blue.
197

Buckfastleigh,

05/05/2008 11:23:16
Gordon Brown will unite the Unionist parties against independence in a referendum and personally head the campaign to stay as part of the United Kingdom.

Yes it's all very clear, as he is bound to win it, for us!
198

The Strategist,

05/05/2008 11:23:56
Given the state of the economy I find it utterly astounding that there is anyone left in Scotland who seriously believes that our economic future is best run by the City of London and the Westminster Treasury.


199

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 11:24:08
207 Rev. S. Campbell

"If one partner in a marriage wants a divorce, you have a divorce (it just takes a wee bit longer)."

Which church are you? Father O'Reilly doesn't give advice like that.

200

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:24:23
244. Well said. Just a pity Gordon Brown will have no vote in a referendum as he is registered to vote in London.
201

Buckfastleigh,

05/05/2008 11:24:28
245. got it in one!
202

Rob,

Moray 05/05/2008 11:26:40
The west awake. Oh dear, devious politics at work, eh? Let's face it, politicians do change their mind and bow to the inevitable - witness Brown of the 10p rate!! However, this U turn from Scottish Labour, if that's what you would prefer to call it, does seem to strangely coincide with a rather sudden loss of appetite for referenda by the usual SNP suspects - but I would hesitate to call that attitude a U turn, of course. Why would that be when the window opens for a core manifesto pledge to be enacted? Giving the people of Scotalnd a choice is the priority, you are right there - but actually, the SNP are already dancing to someone else's tune but they don't like the potential words to the melody too much. You now have another party who is saying if you want a referendum - fine - go ahead and have one. I've been saying it for years but the time is never right, is it? Defies the "it's time" slogan in fact - perhaps that needs revision. Surely it can't be that the SNP are fearful of the result? That would be a pity as I actually think they're doing a decent job - but I do wish they would honour that manifesto pledge now. Don't want to get caught out like Brown on the Lisbon Treaty now do we?
203

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 11:27:55
What if it was a simple yes/no question for Independance with a series of Tick Boxes for extra powers.

You could have a list of powers that are currently held by Westminster that people could tick if the wanted control to rest with the Scottish Government.

Control over Personal Taxation [ ]

Control over Excise Taxes [ ]

Control over Business Rates [ ]

Control over Oil Revenue [ ]

Control over Energy Policy [ ]

Control over Social Benefits [ ]

Control over Pension [ ]

Control over Defence Policy [ ]

Control over Foreign Policy [ ]

Etc. etc.

Then we could let the Scottish People decide who they want to manage what, rather some committee of Labour Party hacks.
204

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:29:49
249. Well said, the SNP manifesto pledge to introduce a referendum bill in 2010 should be honoured now.
205

Blarney,

Falkirk 05/05/2008 11:30:07
Another broken promise by the extremely attractive Wendy.
206

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 11:35:43
#243 Alan B

Is, or is not, the raison d'etre of the SNP to bring Scotland out of the Union, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, in accordance with the wishes of the Scottish people? Did, or did not, the SNP promise a referendum on the matter in their last manifesto? Had the SNP won a clear majority at the last elections, do you really think they wouldn't have introduced referendum legislation by now? Until now, their minority status in Parliament has placed constraints on the SNP. Alexander has now removed the obstacle to the SNP getting what it promised. Some SNP posters here are saying they should delay a referendum. I'm perhaps being unkind in suggesting that it's because they know they will lose. And that's a manipulation of the democratic process.
207

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 11:37:58
Ayrshire Scot STILL thinks his UiB username is 'funny', or perhaps even 'clever'? I mean, it's nice that he has SOME social contact through these boards but it's still a shame that this is all he has.

Anyway, what are the chances we can have the referendum this year and then we can put Salmond back in his box for 30 years.

208

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 11:39:55
According to the SNP manifesto, the referendum was proposed for 2010. If they brought that forward, they'd be accused of yet another "broken promise."

It's still very amazing though.

209

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 11:40:59
254

Why 30 years?
210

The Strategist,

05/05/2008 11:42:34
#250

You're not far from the truth here. It's of huge importance that the people of Scotland be given the opportunity to look at the details of the economic argument so that they understand what it all means.

211

Alan B,

05/05/2008 11:46:07
#Draco

I just think if they promised to bring forward legislation in 2010 for a referndum then they should do what they said.

Wendy has also not removed the barrier to an early referendum. She has seemingly said she would support a referendum with the calman option. salmand will not have the power to get a majority for a 2 question referendum. calman does not report till next summer.

When would u hold it?

I think the snp will need time to digest wendies uturn.

Why do u think it is a good idea to have a referendum before we know what the unionist position is?

My own personal position is - i would like fiscal autonomy and other powers devolved asap. I would then like a real discussion on independence after than. Many of things i would like from independence can be achieved within the union if powers are devolved. It is just that they are unlikely to be do. Until we know what calman says it difficult for people to make up there minds which way to jump.

212

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 11:46:18
Highland Mighty,26/03/2008 23:43:41 _ Salmond Calls for Referendum:
Independence is a dead duck. it has ceased to exist. There is almost complete apathy from everyone about it.
213

Slippylizard,

Sunny Rock 05/05/2008 11:48:14
I'm just going to get my "Braveheart" dvd out. Think it may get a fair bit of usage in the next wee while.

Nearly 800 years, same message. How boring can it get?

Problem is that there are only a couple of good quality politicians in the Scottish parli, unfortunately Salmond is one of them but one day he will go and we will be left with the mince.

It's the mentality that every woe that exists is someone else's fault. Do the SNP supporters really think utopia lies around the corner? Scottish Nationalists are so insulting as well, just read the messages above.
214

Saul Tyre,

Germany 05/05/2008 11:49:28
#254
'Anyway, what are the chances we can have the referendum this year and then we can put Salmond back in his box for 30 years'.

If in a referendum with only a 'yes or no' option the Scots decide against independence the question will not automatically be put aside for a generation. Should after (say) 10 years the SNP gather sufficient support and polls show a huge majority for independence, then nobody's going to tell them to wait another 20 years.

In a referendum where increased poweres is an option and is chosen by most voters, then nothing has been decided - just another stepping stone on the way.
215

The west awake,

Argyll 05/05/2008 11:52:10
Draco 238 "To delay, when he has the power to do so and for no other reason than he knows he won't win, is a manipulation of the democratic process for party advantage."

More than a tad hypocritical surely?
Given the fact that the Labour party has vehemently opposed and prevented a referendum for years (manipulating the democratic process for party advantage) and now when it sees its least worst chance in an early referendum (manipulating the democratic process for party advantage) its peforms a U turn of acrobatic proportions.
And the SNP must change its well thought strategy to suit Wendy and her band of "socialists"?

I'm sure Alex will consider her suggestion - and hold it in 2010.

We Nats are the ones driving the agenda in Scotland nowadays, Labour must just sit back and wait - we'll let them know when we need them to do anything. Should be easy for Labour in Scotland - they are past masters at doing nothing until they're told.

Rob 249 - Referendum in 2010, - before Wendys panic attack, before the Labour meltdown, - after the same.
Its called consistency and strategy, Wendy's tactics are being driven by factors she can't control, ie the public, north and south of the border saying "Labour- No thanks" The SNP don't have that problem - quite the reverse in fact.
216

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 11:52:56
#259 Alan B

Like a saddo, I've just checked the manifesto. It says a LIKELY date of 2010. With Alexander now removing the main obstacle to delay, there's no reason why Salmond shouldn't meet one of his party's main pledges earlier. Unless, of course, he's scared he'll lose. It's a nice sunny day, I'm aff.
217

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 05/05/2008 11:54:40
All those wanting independence please sign this 10 Downing St e-petition

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/England-freedom/
218

Angus Ogg,

05/05/2008 11:55:58
WENDY PHOTO CAPTION COMPETITION......


"Ouch, I just sat on a hedgehog, and it's spikes were that big !"
219

Stephen_Gash,

Carlisle England 05/05/2008 11:56:01
And please tell your friends about it
220

,

05/05/2008 11:56:48
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
221

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 11:56:56
I dont think anyone should be in any doubt that this is not wendys idea this is browns idea. Brown is scared witless at losing his seat in the general election. why else would she mention that she hasnt got browns approval. Wendy does nothing without asking brown. Brown loses loads of councillors and suddenly we are to have a referendum? suspicious?
222

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 05/05/2008 11:58:08
Wendy alexander has just publicly admitted that the Tories are going to win the next General Election.

The thing that seems to be getting over looked here is that Westminster has the power to bring this about any time it wants, yet Wendy is still saying Alex Salmond should do it, I think she is running a bluff, but I'm not really bothered if she isin't.

The question that has to be asked is, If Westminster could call a referendum either on Independence or increased powers for Holyrood, why don't they? perhaps some of the unionist contributers could answer that at last.

You can just imagine Gordon, Mr indecisive himself, working himself into a lather if this were to come about and thinking to himself, how would he be remembered by history? what if it all went wrong? Could he count on the support of the other unionist crews or more importantly his tame media hacks to back his play? Should he really give Wendy his permission. Does she really want it?'t why don't people go away and leave him in peace?

As for Alex Salmond, I would like to see him come out and say something along the lines of 'fine, and we set the questions', just like Westminster does in the referendums it controls and as it doesn't want to run this one, well...........

Wendy's response would be something, mind you it would probbley be so high pitched that only dogs would hear her!

223

Alfie Bett,

05/05/2008 11:58:16
Wendy Alexander sees the writing on the wall,every opinion poll shows her the gradual but inexorable trend that Scotland is heading for independence, otherwise why the sudden volte face and the desperation to cobble up a quick stitch up referendum run by Westminster,but I doubt Salmond will allow this shallow silly woman railroad him into doing anything until he is ready,she and Brown know that very soon the polls will show a majority in favour of the SNP and independence and they are desperate to head that situation off and to have an ambigiously worded referendum that they can manipulate before it arises.
Labour have been shown to be all washed up in England and know that if they lose Scotland they are finished as a party,also if they can quickly have a referendum on this issue how about a referendum for the entire UK on the EU issue,will that happen ?no chance !
224

Alan B,

05/05/2008 11:58:54
#Slippylizard

If u think nats are insulting i suggest u ready Alfreds posts.

"Do the SNP supporters really think utopia lies around the corner?"

For me there are 2 main aspects to independence.
1)economics: scotlands growth rates has been very poor over the last 30yrs less the 2% gdp per yr avg. our grwoth rates has trailed the uk as a whole. The following countries have gpd ppp higher than the uk

Luxembourg, Norway, Cyprus, Ireland, Switzerland, Iceland, Netherlands,Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Finland , Belgium.

Then if consider oil it makes the situatin so much worse. The mcrone report for the labour party showed that scotland would be one of the richest countries in the world. Needless to say labours own report was hidden from public scrutiny and labour knowing lied saying how bad scotland would be after independence.

2)democracy. scotland does not vote tory rightly or wrongly. traditionally the tory party is the most popular in england. this means scotland is governed by a party that has not democratic accountability here.

england only voted the tories out in the 90s after a recession in the south. they were quite happy to vote tory during the recessions in the north during the 80s.
225

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 12:00:13
Does this mean wendy is now one of the Mcchattering class?
226

James F,

East Ren 05/05/2008 12:00:31
A referendum is a good idea. Maybe not tomorrow, because it would take a wee while to organise.

The best time for our referendum would be a week after the next General (UK) Election which the Tories will almost inevitably win.

The Scots people will then face the prospect of another 5 years of Thatcherite policies, using Scotland as a dumping ground for nuclear waste, building unwanted new nuclear installations, legislative experimentation (Poll Tax?), drafting young Scots men for their next illegal madcap aggression in the middle east, increasing unemployment to bolster the culture of fear and intimidation in the labour force etc. Maybe then we Scots will take a long hard look at ourselves and realise that we couldn't possibly run our country any worse than the incoming Tory government.
227

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 12:01:24
have we reached tipping point now or was that months ago?
228

Phil C,

05/05/2008 12:01:26
To all the daft unionists on here who seem to have lost their legs (ie haven't got one to stand on)...

"Ms Alexander has now made that decision and given her support to a referendum as early as next year, although she believes it is wrong to wait until 2010, as the SNP wants."

It's not the SNP that's changed anything, it's Labour and they've no business trying to call the tune. They LOST the election, remember. 2010 is obviously right for everyone and it seems the opposition is coming round to that. It is only better for the SNP if they win the arguments before then.

Any earlier and Wendy's wastrels have more chance of feeding off the fears of many ordinary people who are naturally afraid of change. Wendy's call for an imbecillic rush into a referendum is because she fears a steady erosion of unionist support until the tide becomes unstoppable. It'll probably happen anyway, but a no vote might stall it.....or so the dafties think.
229

antifa,

05/05/2008 12:04:33
This is absolutely the right move from Alexander. Opposing a referendum when a substantial plurality of Scottish opinion is for independence, and a big majority at least want the question to be asked, is just morally wrong as well as politically foolish.

From the above comments it's clear that the decision has already caused problems for the Nats. The slogan "it's time" seems to have now become - "it's not time just yet - after all we've waited 300-odd years", which will strike the public as rather feeble.

In my view, Labour should not be a unionist party, it should be entirely pragmatic on the issue. Labour exists to reduce inequality and make life better for ordinary people. If that can be achieved better in an independent Scotland (which seems likely), then it should support it.
230

Alan B,

05/05/2008 12:08:18
#James F

We can not have a referendum until we know the result of the Calman commission. If the that only reports next summer (2009) it makes sense to have the referendum after that.

It would make sense to have the uk referendum out the way. Normally uk governments have elections every 4yrs which would mean Jun(ish) 2009 but brown will probably delay to jun(ish) 2010.

It makes sense to have a referendum Sept 2010.
231

Jimmy the Pie,

05/05/2008 12:09:47
#254 Highland Mighty

Remember this one Highland????

British Pride,
11/04/2008 18:16:47
553. Whoa! Great! Such typical SNP incite. Fantastic! I only post as Highland Mighty, can you say the same you cyber-nay???
232

Rob,

Moray 05/05/2008 12:13:03
I find KampungHihlander's approach irresistable but for ease of completion he should add another line:

None of the above ( )
Some great stuff coming in on this ............
Alfie Bett 273. Truly delusional - a wonderful contribution.
272 - equally splendid: no simple yes or no for you then! We don't want any straight answers to straight questions in Scotland,do we?
"Imbecellic rush into a referendum" - fantastic Phil strikes again

Slogan for the day "It's Not Time" as Antifa says, 300 years old (but sadly still counting)
233

Skull&Crossbones,

All@C 05/05/2008 12:15:53
I'm all for independence but whoever governs Scotland will mess up,they're politicians they always do.Can you picture Scotland in 10 or 20 years time with Salmond or Wee Wendy or god help us Hen Broon at the wheel.Having huge oil reserves isn't a cure all,look at Iraq.and won't America find us an interesting prospect.But what the hell do it anyway.
234

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 12:16:17
jimmy lol

i wonder how many others he has AM2 perhaps. etc.
235

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 12:17:08
spook you are naughty but i like yoooooooooooooo.
236

G,

dundy 05/05/2008 12:22:28
Bring it on!

Lets have the referendum now.
I can't understand the SNP'S RELUCTANCE to press for a referendum.

Could it be that if Scotland voted for independence their sole reason for existence would disappear? They would have to think up some policies that they could deliver rather than ones they can blame on someone else. They would lose their USP and be just another political party judged on their policies and not some adherence to an ideal.
237

Alan B,

05/05/2008 12:25:07
#285 Skull&Crossbones

Was Heath good for scotland. Callahan! thatcher! major! blair!

That advantage of controlling who runs the country in scotland is we can kick them out when we want.

238

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 12:35:10
#280, 289 etc

Blimey, it's funny to see all these Unionists (position until yesterday: NO REFERENDUM EVER!) suddenly falling over themselves not only to demand one, but to castigate the SNP for not doing it RIGHT NOW!

Wendy hasn't even *officially* said Labour would support one yet, just fudged and evaded and hinted. But let's be clear here - she can make it happen tomorrow if she wants to.

OPTION 1: Wendy states categorically that if the SNP brings forward a bill for a two-option referendum tomorrow, the vote to be held as soon as practically possible, Labour will vote in support of it. The SNP would have no choice but to bring forward that bill.

OPTION 2: Wendy states categorically that Labour will support only a three-option referendum. In those circumstances, we clearly have to wait until at least mid-2009, since that's when the Calman Commission has promised to deliver a definitive "more powers" option. (And possibly longer, since by then there's a good chance we'll have a Westminster election to get out of the way first.)

Ball's in your court, Wendy. The SNP don't have the votes to force a referendum by themselves, they need to know they can count on your support to get it through, and only you can tell them what your terms are for that support. So let's hear it.
239

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 05/05/2008 12:36:56
#289 G, Dundy.

I agree! SNP don't want a referendum. It'll lose and all those snouts will lose all those troughs.

Independence, as anyone who cares to look can see, is no guarantee of success in anything. SNP has no special plans or solutions to any of Scotland's real problems. SNP is THE modern example of 'Toom Tabard'. Which, oddly, has the same initials as Tartan Taliban. Mysterious, or what?

(I bet most SNP supporters don't understand the Toom Tabard reference!)
240

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:37:40
Gordon got a drubbing in England, this article and the sudden change of heart by u turn Wendy is most likely to try an deflect from Labour's woes south of the border
Can wait till May 22nd when there is the Crew by lection, Labour stronghold, will Labour keep it or will that go as well?
241

Alan B,

05/05/2008 12:39:20
#291 Rev. S. Campbell

Well said
242

Skull&Crossbones,

05/05/2008 12:40:05
#290 Alan B
Read my post. I'm not agin independence,I'm just old enough and cynical enough to be agin pollies of all colours,shapes,sizes and genders.You will never be done kicking the b@st@rds out but like I already said,do it anyway.
243

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 12:40:11
My God, you are idiots. At least you are consistent.

283. That was posted by a nat faker, you frickin' idiot. How come you can't see that?!

Ayrshire, 19% was the last poll for support, wasn't it? The "lowest ever", wasn't it? Down from that 44% in 2006, wasn't it? This latest independence campaign is on its knees and only the most deluded of nats are yet to see that.
244

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:41:54
#293
Independence will work for Scotland, it has work for many other nations, that have a lot less in resources than Scotland
Scotland would earn enough, more than enough actually from oil and gas, to bank away and invest in industries
It is now time to reflect and realis that the Union with England is finshed. England wants to go its own way and Scotland does as well, its far better we went on as an Indpendent nation and worked with England as well as our other neighbours than continue with the antagonism that prevails thanks to the politicians
245

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 12:41:57
From SNP Manifesto:

"...offering Scots the opportunity to decide on independence in a referendum, with a likely date of 2010."

The date of 2010 is only 'a likely date'. If Labour MSPs can strike a deal with the SNP government to vote for a referendum ,it shouldn't matter to the SNP whether the referendum is in 2008, 2009, 2010 or 2011.

Personally I can't see any referendum this side of the next Holyrood election.
246

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 12:42:37
283. Mind you, we all know just how gullible the nats are, so that you fell for that is no real surprise to anyone with a 3-digit IQ.

Let's face it, you nats just aren't the brightest of lights, are you!
247

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 05/05/2008 12:42:37
Might be the smartest thing Labour have done for years. Lets vote end of the year and wipe that smug grin of Salmon. Be good to have the SNP shut about about this for a while so we can concentrate on more important things that really matter to peoples lives in Scotland.
248

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:43:47
#297 Highland Mighty
Not still touting the Telegraph poll are you?
The poll that also gave 28% in favour of Independence or have you airbrushed that out of your mind
249

Alan B,

05/05/2008 12:46:18
#Rulesbutnotrulers

"Independence, as anyone who cares to look can see, is no guarantee of success in anything"

U are correct. But what we do know is the union over the last 30yrs has not delivered for scotland. what we also know is that many small countries have outperformed the big ones in western europe.

We also know that if the tories get back into power they will have almost no mandate in scotland. The idea is u kick parties out if they do not deliver. As we know from the 17yrs of tory rule we could not do that.

Even people like urself who support federalisation are also admitting that the union has not been working well. The big questions are can it be reformed enought that it could be beneficial.

If say it is in scotland interests to join the euro are we really going to have a uk devolved and mature enough where scotland could do so within the uk if england chose not to.
250

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 12:46:25
301. Even their donors are getting fed up with Salmond banging on about independence all the time.

What a pathetic climbdown it was from Toad too!
251

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:47:33
#300
Now thats funny as I actually do have a three digit IQ!
clearly you dont though seen as you still havent figured out the Telegraph poll, which gave three different percentage figures for those in favour of Independence and the poll was conducted with a mjority of Labour and Libdem voters..Hmmm let me see If I went into a Labour club in Lanarkshire , I wonder how many would vote for Independence?
252

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 12:48:14
302. First, it was 25% not 28%.

Second, that was the TWO-option poll, ie Yes/No.

19% was the support in the MULTI-option poll.

Amazingly, there are still nats that can't tell the difference!
253

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 12:49:01
#294 Edward

You're right about the importance of the Crewe and Nantwich by-election on 22nd May. If the Tories win this seat, Labour might implode. The Tories haven't won a by-election in a Labour seat for over 25 years (1982 was the last one I think).
Labour though they were being clever by holding the by-election quickly to sneak home under the radar. This doesn't look so clever now.
254

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 12:49:02
#301 "Might be the smartest thing Labour have done for years. Lets vote end of the year and wipe that smug grin of Salmon. Be good to have the SNP shut about about this for a while so we can concentrate on more important things that really matter to peoples lives in Scotland."

Couldn't agree more. So let's have a categorical pledge from Wendy this week that Labour will support an SNP bill to hold a two-option referendum as soon as possible. Unless she's scared, of course.
255

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 12:49:39
#292 Spook

That just the face she make when Gordon Brown uses her as a hand puppet.
256

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 12:50:06
#306 The most recent two-option poll showed support for independence at 41%, against 40% for the status quo. Clearly you're as illiterate as you are stupid.
257

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:51:17
The union was never popular when it was made 300 yeasr ago and has never been popular ever since and its certainly not popular now
Frankly I want to put right what was done in 1707 when the population of Scotland were ignored and not allowed to vote!
258

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 12:51:41
Edward, I'll repeat the polls for you:

TWO-option polls (Independence - for or against):
YouGov Apr 08…For: 25% - Against 59%
YouGov Jan 08…For: 27% - Against: 57%
YouGov Apr 07…For: 25% - Against: 53%
YouGov Mar 07..For: 28% - Against: 51%
YouGov Nov 06..For: 31% - Against: 50%
ICM Oct 06……..For: 39% - Against: 51%
YouGov Sep 06..For: 44% - Against: 42%

MULTI-option polls (Independence - More Devolution - Status Quo - Scrap Devolution):
YouGov Apr 08…Ind: 19% - More Dev: 38% - Status Quo: 34% - Scrap Dev: ??
MRUK Mar 08.....Ind: 23% - More Dev: 45% - Status Quo: 22% - Scrap Dev: 6%
YouGov Aug 07...Ind: 23% - More Dev: 39% - Status Quo: 20% - Scrap Dev: 9%
YouGov Apr 07…Ind: 26% - More Dev: 37% - Status Quo: 17% - Scrap Dev: 12%
SSAS 2007……..Ind: 23% - More Dev: 55% - Status Quo: 8% - Scrap Dev: 10%
SSAS 2006……..Ind: 30% - More Dev: n/a - Status Quo: n/a - Scrap Dev: n/a
SSAS 2005……..Ind: 34% - More Dev: 37% - Status Quo: 7% - Scrap Dev: 14%

Do you understand now?
259

Rob,

Moray 05/05/2008 12:52:30
The Rev S Campbell does many of us a dis-service. I voted SNP because I want a referendum, not because I want independence. How could you vote for anyone else in this country (Scotalnd that is, not Liberal Democrat Bath)- they are all idiots to a man and woman. As it happens the SNP have done a good job so far - but it has nothing to do with Scotland being Independent. Scotland will reject that cause whether you hold the referendum now, next year, 2010, 2020 etc. I want the referendum out of the way asap so that we can run this country without this ridiculous self centred distraction - and I have said it for years. Unlike the Independence seekers, I have no fear of a referendum - not so the many who are ducking for cover on thsi blog as they too know what the result will be.

Anyway, enough angst - time to go off to the links.
260

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:54:46
#306 Highland Mighty
I stand corrected, it was actually 29%!
The experience so far suggests that Scotland is perfectly capable of governing itself and no longer
needs to remain part of the UK: it ought in due course to become formally independent 29%
This is taken from the poll you are adept at quoting
261

Ananurhing,

05/05/2008 12:54:55
293 Rules

Is your self esteem really so low that you have to come on here to pat yourself on the back to tell yourself what a clever chappie you are?
'Toom Tabard' Bit rich from a federalist! Can't be many emptier coats methinks!
262

Edward,

05/05/2008 12:55:39
#306 Highland Mighty
Page 4 by the way, in case you cant find it
263

Alan B,

05/05/2008 12:59:01
#299 Publius

Good day to u! Hope u are not working too hard bank holiday down ur way and all that.

I just cannot see how they could have a referendum before Calman reports. It would no be in the snps interests to argue against something vague. Tangible powers or lack of them would be a much wider target. Wendy has also said sapparently that he wants a 3 question referendum.

I agree with u that it would be better to have a referendum after the next scottish election. And i also think it needs to be a 2 question referendum.

I think the snp would rather wait until after labour get kicked out at the election. Political expediency. Also labour, if they are in terminal decline, which seems likely, will help give the snp better press in comparison over the next few yrs.

When the calman report comes up with it views. Assuming all the union parties buy into it. Salmond could easily try to ensure that the powers have been passed to the sp before a referendum.






264

Edward,

05/05/2008 13:03:05
#312 Highland Mighty
Your not AM2 are you?

The polls on the multi option question are a tad skewed
to say the least as the actual reverendum would be STV
that is 1st choice 2nd choice etc
But an opinion poll which as we alaredy know from the Telegraph (is a push poll) is based on simple numerics, it does not take into account STV
So its feasable that those of the 38% woul have Independence as their 2nd choice could be transfered to the Independence vote and end up with 50% plus
Also note that you insist on touting the 'scrapping devolution' guff, which frankly will never happen!
So please get real and start using the old brain cells
and stop touting flawed polls, which in the real worl can only be relyable on straight ftp voting, but just dont work on the STV system
265

Geoff,

sa 05/05/2008 13:03:38
A referendum on Independence is inevitable. What is needed prior to that is for the various parties to formulate their proposals/positions clearly so that the Scottish people have a clear understanding of the alternatives. I think that the way that Wendy Alexander has announced this and the timing in particular does reinforce the belief that this is a knee jerk reaction. What I would like to see is a Constitutional Convention for the WHOLE of the UK involving ALL of the parties.Englands position needs reviewing as well and it would make perfect sense to table the whole thing in 'one hit'instead of doing it piecemeal.
Alex salmond articulates his policy on Independence clearly. The Unionists need to forget party politics for a while and articulate their positive case for the Union. Scaremongering is neither helpful nor necessary.
266

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 13:04:28
#313 "Unlike the Independence seekers, I have no fear of a referendum - not so the many who are ducking for cover on thsi blog as they too know what the result will be."

I have no fear of a referendum either. I think a two-option one would deliver independence, and a three-option one would deliver a parliament inside the UK with very considerably increased powers, either of which would represent forward progress for Scotland. I want Wendy Alexander to clearly state her conditions for Labour to support a referendum bill, and then to get on with it. If the Scottish people reject independence in a free vote, then so be it, and let the SNP continue doing a good job of running the country within the UK.
267

Montford's Jaicket,

05/05/2008 13:05:32
#87 I can exclusively reveal the answers to all 5 of your questions:

1. Why did you spend so much effort opposing a referendum previously, and what has happened to your reasons for doing so?
"Ah'll huv tae refer that wan back to the Pry Monster as it's no' a devolved matter"

2. Why has your Calman Commission not been asked to look at independence, if you are now proposing a referendum that includes such an option?
"Ah'll huv tae refer that wan back to the Pry Monster as it's no' a devolved matter"

3. If a three question referendum is being proposed, will it be a 1-2-3 choice, FPTP, or a "special threshold" required for the independence option?
"Ah'll huv tae... " (you should have the flavour by now)
268

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 13:07:29
319. Every time you do this, Spook, and every time it has to be explained - You can't just take one poll from one company as gospel.

Repeated polls from multiple companies show support at under a quarter. Salmond Himself agrees with this. Obviously Labour do too otherwise they wouldn't be demanding a referendum as early as possible.

It's only you nats that do otherwise. Why can't you comprehend this?
269

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 13:08:08
#319

http://www.journal-online.co.uk/articles/show/3127

Pro independence 41%
Anti independence 40%

April 24th 2008
270

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 13:09:19
"In previous TNS polls, conducted in August and November 2007, support for independence has stood below that of the status quo. In their first survey, 50% of respondents did not agree with Scottish Independence, compared with 35% who did.

Scottish political commentators have put the change down to a strong period of successful governance by the SNP since their election victory in May 2007. Such success in power is a central pillar of the SNP’s attempts to win over the Scottish people to the thought of independence.

TNS managing director Chris Eynon said: "This represents a very dramatic turnaround over the period of eight months since August 2007. The poll suggests that, based on the SNP's performance in power since the May election, public confidence in the ability of Scotland to run its own affairs as an independent state has increased.""
271

brownlie,

05/05/2008 13:14:46
312 Highland

You were instructed not to mention the polls as we have to lure the nats into a false sense of security.

With the referendum in mind, much better to concentrate on scare stories such as 90%(insert any figure of your choice) tax rises, nuclear submarines anchored off Grangemouth, lights out in Scotland courtesy of withdrawal of electricity in Scotland by Gordon's brother's firm etc etc.

We will have to convert the media outlets such as the nat-loving Sun, Record, BBC etc into printing and broadcasting such doom and gloom stories. The well-vaselined Gordon Brewer will give us a head-start and the Scotsman has always printed what we asked them to print.
272

Busymale,

05/05/2008 13:18:24
After a life time of waiting it looks as though I might finally have a chance of a vote on the future of my country. Why so long Labour?
273

Tris,

05/05/2008 13:19:12

Question for Hamish MacDonell:

Why would it finish Labour as a political party in Scotland?

An independent Scotland would have a need for a party of the centre left, indeed it could be argued that it would be supreme in politics in Scotland.

It would be the end of London-controlled Labour in Scotland of course. This would be a Scottish Labour Party in a real sense.
274

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 13:19:29
324. Sorry, are you saying the poll should have been taken mostly from the SNP voters instead of a cross-section?

"That poll was proven by many posters..." Would these "many posters" be other teenage nats, by any chance? And are any of those experts in statistical management?

What a beautifully desperate crock of doggy-doo-doo. Astonishing denial by the nats.

You are all truly in form today!
275

boudica,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 13:19:39
Do I detect the natz getting a tad nervous ..Why I ask myself, How often have they screamed for e Ref..now that Wee Eck is getting the support he wanted ..his supporters are nervous and lo and behold ..Wee Eck is very quiet ..Whats wrong , I thought this was your dream scenario ...
276

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 13:19:41
#293

Your reference to John Baliol is about as relevant to the debate as your frequent assertions that many small countries do poorly.
277

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 13:21:44
Brownlie - this 'unionist' username, along with Union is Best, was really never funny to begin with. Not even original let alone any decent contribution.

At best, it was 'sad' but now it's 'tedious'.

Go and see what mummy is doing in the garden. Maybe you can help her with the washing. Eh?
278

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 13:21:51
here highland mighty never mind the polls can your please explain wendys volte face?

i thought that having a referendum was grandstanding?

i thought there was no demand for it?

you can paste polls for that if you want?

I thought that the lib dums didnt go into coalition with the snp because they were against a referndum same with the tories?

So i take it nicol will now be pulling out of the constipation commsion?
279

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 13:23:02
334 speak from experience do you highland i can imagine you with the pinny holding the pegs?
280

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 13:23:15
#332 No, you don't detect that, except in your desperate dependence fantasies. Let Wendy say what her terms are for Labour's support for a referendum bill, then let's go ahead and have it as soon as practically possible.

Or in short, bring it on.
281

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 13:23:42
335 posts so far.

I'm amazed.
282

The Strategist,

05/05/2008 13:27:57
The questions are all too simple which is of course how unionists want it.

283

boudica,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 13:29:12
329 ..didnt Alec promise to deal with the ref in his first 100 days ..I think you should ask that question of the Natz ...Why is it taking them so long ....do you think they already know the answer hence the delay and rush to get all the " Curry Cooks" they can into Scotland before they commited to a date ...Priceless..
284

Davie from Irvine,

Ayrshire coast A Nationalist not a racist. 05/05/2008 13:31:01
If an early referendum on independence is held and with the help of the daily record and others who use the nasty misleading term separitism and scaremongering like they do, and Wendy gets the union result she wants, it is not neccecerally going to regain Labour votes. I shudder at the thought as many unionists must also do of a return to labour Lib dems forming another inept government, Ayr and Monklands A&E would be closed now if they had been returned to name just one of their incompetent policies, and back to being run from London if Labour are still in control.
285

boudica,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 13:31:07
341 ...Are you confirming that Natz cant deal with simple questions ?
286

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 13:32:30
#329 You're struggling with this, aren't you?

There was no point in bringing a referendum bill before now, because there weren't the votes to get it carried.

Now it seems as though there are.

So as soon as Wendy tells us under what conditions Labour will vote for a bill, we'll have one.

Simple enough for you? Or would you like to dig yourself an even deeper hole as you spin around in confusion about whether you want a referendum or not? Our answer's always been "Yes". Welcome to our side!
287

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 13:32:33
345 what simple questions like where is jersey? Is it somewhere your allowed to take donations from?
288

boudica,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 13:33:45
Spook ....No Scotland got the Tartan Version of the Tories...You seem a little spooked by the thought of the Referendum ..Why is that ??
289

boudica,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 13:36:02
Karen or that other simple question ...Mr Salmond how can you claim £130.000 expenses when you rarely appear at Westminster
290

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 13:36:17
#348

We all know who the Tories are, dear. After all, only Tories make the poor poorer and the rich richer, right?

Too embarrassed to answer me?
291

brownlie,

05/05/2008 13:37:37
334 Highland

Whether you think I am funny or not - or the validity of any views you pontificate on - is the very least of my concerns.

Do you deny that tales of doom and gloom will be our unionist policy right up until the election?

You also claim that Salmond has admitted having support from 25% of the electorate. Given that you continually accuse him of lying why do you believe him on this occasion?

Sadly, my mummy is no longer around and if you refrain from mentioning her I will make no reference to your fondness for a bit of lamb.
292

Publius,

Girvan 05/05/2008 13:45:10
#318 Alan B
Thank you for your good wishes. I've got this weekend off and am staying with my ma in Girvan. I usually work bank holiday weekends - the pay's brilliant and not many clients contact us - but I worked last weekend and didn't want to do two weekends in a row.
I don't know about the desirability of waiting until 2011 for a referendum. I just don't think the politicians will be able to agree about one until after the next Holyrood election - and very likely they still won't agree in 2011!
#340 Spook
Glad you've got out of your coffin early! Be careful with opinion polls. YouGov (the poll from the Telegraph much rubbished on this board) got much closer to the results in the English local elections than any of the other pollsters. Scottish Progressive Opinion is not really a polling organisation. It does telephone polls every week for this, that and the other but focus groups are more its thing. Given the choice of YouGove and Scottish Progressive Opinion I'd go with YouGov every time.
293

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 05/05/2008 13:46:52
#319 Spook

By the look on her face it looks like he forgot to take off his watch.
294

,

05/05/2008 13:51:27
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
295

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 13:56:40
340. Let me guess.....another TNS poll?

I'm going to guess 'yes' as they are the only polling company that shows support for the SNP increasing while EVERY OTHER POLL shows decreasing support.

Interestingly, isn't it also TNS that comes up with the 41% support for independence while EVERY OTHER POLL shows dropping support?
296

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 13:58:39
356. There you have the stereotype proven!

Nats hunched over their computers in the gloom of the bedrooms with curtains firmly shut.

I thank you!
297

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/05/2008 14:00:27
#56 Royster

I've seen you peddling this trash before.

There is no way that your all-or-nothing proposal will happen. We will not allow power to revert to Westminster and no true Scot would support your nonsense.
298

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 05/05/2008 14:00:31
Rob, moray, I see so it's all right for unionist governments to set questions for referendums but not Nationilist ones, what are you scared of, another 40% ruling perhaps. only on the other side this time?

You didn't answer the question etheir, why don't Westminster see to this, what are they scared off? Alex Salmond had already given a date, but not Westminster, so please tell us, why don't they do it?

BTW, I never saw Wendy on Telly spouting off about this, so can some bodytell me, did she say or was she even asked, if a yes vote for Independence won, even by a single vote, will she and her cronies accept it?
299

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 14:00:44
360 [contd]

So one poll (I can't find this poll - who is it by?) has a 14% lead and rising.

Another (the world-renowned multinational that is YouGov) has a 5% lead and falling.
300

Jimmy the Pie,

05/05/2008 14:02:05
I do like the way Highland Pride,after being soundly humiliated and disgraced, in all rational arguments resorts to insults and smears.

Typical of someone with such a low IQ.

Pity him, he doesn't even know his own identity.
301

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:04:11
ahhh i have just figured out why wendy got to provide the news about the u turn. If brown did it then it would bring up the whole referndum on the eu constitution issue?

Brown will now try and distance himself from wendy when the papers pick this up if they do?

that way he can say wendy acted independently.............
302

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:10:02
so does anyoen know what wendy thinks about a refernedum on the eu constution?
303

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:10:37
#364 It's by System Three.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article3868138.ece
304

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:12:33
Also here:

http://www.buteman.co.uk/latest-scottish-news/SNP-hits-highest-ever-poll.4048464.jp

SNP figures 12% up on the Holyrood election results a year ago.
305

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:13:47
dougie seems to like referndums as well just not ones on the eu?

One of the prime minister's closest allies has said he is not afraid of a referendum on Scottish independence

aye but he is afraid of one on the eu.........

no wonder gordons not talking about it.....
306

Truely English,

05/05/2008 14:15:12
A referendum will certainly show just how British the Scots are and this should happen as quickly as possible, so that the matter can be dealt with and put aside for a number of years.

Since the Scots and the English share the same language, culture and values, would it not be fairer if everyone in Britain including Northern Ireland, were given the opportunity to vote on such an important topic, affecting all of Britain constitutionally. We have shared this Union a one people for some 300 years.
307

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/05/2008 14:16:28
#82 Royster. Of course the Unionists will disappear post independence just like in all independent, or recently independent countries. Do you believe otherwise?
308

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 14:17:04
364 [contd!)

Found it.....it IS a TNS poll. I knew it. My God, that company is useless.

Just as a guide to how way off the mark TNS is:-

This TNS poll has the Conservatives on 17% in Westminster polling, a THIRD of the 44% they secured in the local elections. You'd expect there to be a difference but to be so far out is ridiculous.

The TNS poll has the LDs only on 10% even though they secured 20% of the vote in the locals.
309

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 05/05/2008 14:19:20
#371 Truly English

I am unaware of this so-called shared culture. I suspect it's a figment of your imagination.
310

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 14:20:46
365. What the....?

Where?...How?.....In what reality are you that I have been "soundly humiliated and disgraced"?

You nats are relying solely on one poll that has been shown to be way of the mark on every occasion.

The delusion is astonishing. Well, it would be if it wasn't so sad.

Where's our uber-racist ex-pat Jackie Priest nowadays? Has the Lord High Bigot changed its username again?
311

WeThePeople,

Glenrothes 05/05/2008 14:21:00
#102:

'The only reason that the SNP insist that it is the people choice whether to become independent or not is so they can use the fact the unionist do not support a referendum as a way of crying foul at the union.'

You need to check your facts out before going into print -

'If the Scottish people expressed a desire for independence the stage would be set for a direct clash between what is the English doctrine of sovereignty and the Scottish doctrine of the sovereignty of the people.'

SOURCE: 'The Operation of Multi-Layer Democracy', Scottish Affairs Committee Second Report of Session 1997-1998, HC 460-I, 2 December 1998, para 27.
312

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:21:07
371 aye we share the same language im sure you will agree with the statement below?


an duine nach seall romhe seallish e as a dheidh agus

an ni nach buin dhut na buin dha
313

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 14:25:58
374. Nope, wrong stats on the latest YouGov poll.

The figures are SNP 36% on the Holyrood constituency vote, with Labour on 31%. A 5% lead.

http://www.yougov.com/uk/archives/pdf/08%2004%2028%20scotland%20topline.pdf

The lead over Labour was 11% in Nov 07, 9% in Jan, 7% in March and now 5% in April.
314

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:26:31
Highland Shighty, I'm sure you can provide us with actual links to all these polls showing declining SNP support? Because it'd be awfully embarrassing if you were just talking keech you've made up off the top of your head.
315

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 14:29:47
380 Rev S Campbell

Are you still farting out your mouth you complete and utter dip-stick?

Scotland does not want to independent, get that through your thick skull. 20% of people support it.

The reason the SNP beat Labour by 48 votes in the one seat they have more is because Labour are worse than useless.
316

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:29:55
371 truly sasannach

de dh'eirich dhut?
317

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:29:57
That same YouGov poll:

"Taking everything into account do you approve or disapprove of the Scottish Executive’s record to date?"

Approve 52
Disapprove 27
Don’t know 21

"Which of the following do you think would make the best Scottish First Minister?"

Alex Salmond 43
Wendy Alexander 11
Annabel Goldie 9
Nicol Stephen 5
Don’t know 31

Twice as many people think they're doing a good job as a bad one, and FOUR times as many think Salmond would be the best FM out of all the Scottish leaders. Wow, the SNP must be sobbing themselves to sleep.

:D
318

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 05/05/2008 14:30:23
Wendys playing games to try and boost the image of her party by trying to make them look tough.

As I (and others) have said, Westminster could do this anytime, but won't, Wendy's insisting the Scottish Government does it, so she can vote against their proposals, what ever they might be, on the grounds that she thinks the format is wrong.

She will then try to say the blame lies with Alex Salmond, it's the usual Labour hypocracy, she is also counting on the fact that the Lib-Dems and Torys would also vote against any proposals to get her off the hook.

She is trying to be clever and once again failing!
319

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:31:04
Alfred: thanks for that insightful and perceptive comment. Wit and political savvy like that are the reason the Unionist parties are doing so well in Scotland these days.

:D
320

Alan B,

05/05/2008 14:32:15
Highland Mighty

One thing i do not understand about u, for someone that argues so much for the union, u do not support the union as it currently stands, supporting a dev max position.

By not embracing independence we have suffered 17yrs of tory misrule followed by a weak scottish parliament unable to do the stuff u (by definition of dev max) want it to be able to do.

Lets say we move to dev max where we have fiscal autonomy and foreign policy, defence, currency and eu membership are the few powers left to a central uk government what is the point. Unable to join the euro if deemed in scotland interests. Being misrepresented in the eu, using up political capital for issues not in our interested, spending vast amounts of money on defence which could be better spent else where.




321

Alan B,

05/05/2008 14:32:46
To any unionist that cares to answer:

Given that scotland does not vote tory and england does why do u think that scotland being governed by a party where there is little democratic mandate is a good thing?
322

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:33:34
381 alfred

Wee, sleekit, cowrin', tim'rous beastie, O, what a panic's in thy breastie
323

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:35:00
YouGov poll January 2008:

Headline Voting Intention
[excluding Don't Knows and Wouldn't Votes]
Lab 36%
SNP 30%

So despite Highland Shighty's inaccurate assertions, YouGov polls actually show an INCREASE of 11% in SNP support in the last four months.
324

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 14:37:53
YouGov poll October 2007

Westminster Vote
Lab 42
SNP 27
Con 18
Lib 11

YouGov poll April 2008

Westminster vote
Labour 34
Scottish National Party 30
Conservative 17
Liberal Democrat 14


SNP increase since October 2007: 11%
325

brownlie,

05/05/2008 14:43:55
382 Karinx

Tha ant-amadan na chadail. Chan'eil Highland Mighty glic!!
326

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:50:32
391 brownlie

abair e tha e balbh.
327

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:52:31
391
brownlie
highland mighty chan eil sgot aige.
328

brownlie,

05/05/2008 14:53:08
376 Highland Mighty

Do not despair, HM, humiliation and disgrace are the inevitable by-products of unionism but it's the polls that count!!!
329

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:55:48
394 he he he lol. aye i can just see him after the referendum

but the polls said x percent didnt want it......lol still laughing.
330

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 14:57:48
wendy alexander

the new little britain vicky pollard.

yeah but no but yeah.........
331

Craig Cockburn,

Linlithgow 05/05/2008 14:59:03
Wendy has seen this week what happens when Labour is seen as out of touch with voters and she's simply trying to ensure that the Labour party in Scotland doesn't make the same mistakes as Gordon Brown in England. Looks like some common sense for a change
332

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 15:00:23
criag stop being a potato. The woman has been told by gordon brown to say this because hes frightened he going to lose his seat at the general election..
333

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 15:01:16
397 and what do you mean as "seen as out of touch" they are out of touch there is no seeing about it.
334

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 15:08:45
I'm amazed.
335

Craig Cockburn,

Linlithgow 05/05/2008 15:12:57
If Labour is not against the principle of independence being on the ballot, does this mean that the Calman commission are able to consider it as a possible outcome?
336

Lauwrie,

05/05/2008 15:14:21
er - um - does that mean we in England get a referendum on independence too ?


We've been waiting 301 years for it and still no specific mention of the a take on how the English feel about the union. If it takes place I suspect the outcome might bear comparison with the recent local election results!
337

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 15:15:31
Rev Campbell, you don't seem to have noticed that you are comparing the Westminster figures of last year with the Holyrood constituency figures of this year.

Well done.
338

Lauwrie,

05/05/2008 15:16:02
Another thing, if Brown loses his seat at a general election the laugh from England will drown the one from Scotland.
339

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 15:18:40
402 why are you thinking of leaving wales england and northern ireland. I agree with you i think that every country in the union should get a vote on wether each country wants to remain in the union any that dont get to leave.
340

Edward,

05/05/2008 15:19:36
#371 Truely English
Shared Language - erm not by choice actually, if you knew your history you would find that Gaelic was banned at one time by the London
Chared Culture - erm, no , its not, sorry totally diverse cultures. Allthough at times the Scottish culture is hidden by design by the English to the World at Large when promoting Britain abroad, I still remember the Visit Britain posters and campaign that only had pictures of men in bowler hats, London Buses adn the Tower of London!. While were at it our culture was also attacked by the banning of the Kilt by the government in London and only revived at the turn of the 20th century
Despite all this, by and large, we still dont hold any greivence against the English, who are our neighbours
341

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 15:19:58
401 no the callman commission is a seperate issue that is only looking at more powers. The other parites ie lib dems and tories would have to agree that they are to consider independence.

do keep up.
342

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 15:22:46
#403 I'm doing no such thing, you helpless clown. See post 390, which compares like with like - Westminster vote with Westminster vote. Feel free to keep misrepresenting the truth, though - it's what you do best.
343

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 15:23:58
#402 If you want one, vote for parties that offer you one. We won't stand in your way.
344

Edward,

05/05/2008 15:25:44
We the pepole of Scotland did not have any choice when it came to the union 300 years ago. Now, if Labour has its way the people of Scotland will still be ignored.
Its facinating that Wendy Alexander is having a U turn about a referendum. But I would be very very wary of some one like Wendy have a change of heart. I still rememebr the first referendum under sunny Jim Callaghan's Labour government where they fixed the devolution refendum with a 40% ruling. Nothing would surprise me if Wendy was thinking of doing the same!
Remeber the commission come review she has instigated does not include anything on Independence, so why should we think that she has changed anything! She cannot or ever be trusted
345

Edward,

05/05/2008 15:27:45
Wendy Alexander: 'I don’t fear the verdict of the Scottish people.' because she will ignore them anyway, if she doesnt get the result she hopes for
Watch out for a 40% rule!
346

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 15:28:06
aye we have already seen their little tricks at the budget edward where they propose ammendments then abstain from voting.
347

Phil C,

05/05/2008 15:33:09
#396 Karinx

I think she's more like the only blow-up doll to be elected to parliament! (see picture above). Either way, she turns the stomach!
348

brownlie,

05/05/2008 15:38:13
Highland Mighty

When I told you of our policy of getting the media on-side as part of our anti-independence campaign I did not expect such an instant response from the Scotsman with their heading "Salmond a coward over referendum".

I'm going to suggest at tomorrow's briefing that we adopt your "Independence is a dead duck" as our slogan.
349

pehman,

sussex 05/05/2008 15:38:34
From a cynics point of view, wendy's change of mind wouldn't have anything to do with maggie's predicament of civil war in the labour party.

By supporting a referendum now, she hopes the party in Scotland will be diverted away from the internal dispute going on down south, giving maggie a bit of lee way !

350

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 15:47:29
408/390. 30% - 27% = 11%?

Oh, my goodness!
351

Edward,

05/05/2008 15:49:52
I found this funny 'GORDON Brown, the Prime Minister, yesterday sought to reconnect with the British public by emphasising he came from a "pretty ordinary background" and understood their struggle to cope'
This also came out during the Andrew Marr show
But when you remember his background of being the son of a Church of Scotland Minister, who, in relation to the community at large , are not working class or poor, its a bit rich to say he had an oridinary background - compaerd to what exactly
352

morris,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 15:53:48
417
It certainly has to do with their performance in the English councils,so the fall out also comes into it I suppose.

They have at last got it through their thick skulls that they are going to be annihilated.Better to have a referendum whilst we can still win it,than wait any longer,because Salmond has been on honeymoon so long its looking like Wendy will never ever successfully lead anything more than her kids round TESCO.A victory could help secure the inevitable tension for the next twenty years

between Westminster TOry and Holyrood SNP/LABOUR
whilst Labour disappear into third place behind the NEW OPPOSITION party the Liberal Democrats in England.

Broken promises should be fewer under them since they have not promised anything as far as I can see, that is of any consequence.The best description I can find for Liberal supporters is they see the failing of Tory and Liberal but have no idea what to do about it.

Scotland knows what to do about it,and once the megathick Labour voters realise THEY CANNOT WIN they will presumably abstain,(they should vote SNP but hey they are megathick remember)and that will really cause SNP gains.What happens next I wonder?
353

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05/05/2008 15:54:28
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354

WeThePeople,

Glenrothes 05/05/2008 15:56:45
#371 Truely English:

'Since the Scots and the English share the same language, culture and values...'

You have a truely fevered imagination -

'Equally, the study of English history and the comparative neglect of Scottish history led to the acceptance of the false idea that the two countries share the same historic background. How far this can go was illustrated in 1965, when it was proposed that the seven hundredth anniversary of Simon de Montfort's parliament and the seven hundred and fiftieth anniversary of Magna Carta - both events which took place in what was at the time a foreign country - should be commemorated in Scotland.'

SOURCE: 'Scotland: The Shaping of a Nation' by Gordon Donaldson, p.117, ISBN 0 7153 6904 0
355

morris,

edinburgh 05/05/2008 15:56:46
*420 should read failing of Tory and Labour (but the difference is not that great anyway).
356

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 15:56:59
#418 Goodness me, you're *epically* stupid.

15% behind to 4% behind = 11% gain.
357

Edward,

05/05/2008 16:03:44
This from yesterdays Sunday Mail :'One insider said: "We should call Salmond's bluff. Faced with the stark reality of being on its own, the majority of Scots don't want independence. A referendum would show the strength of the Union and the limits of the SNP'
This is an example of Labour's atitude to Scotland
Clearly Labour are of the opinion that Scots just love the Union and that its a comfort blanket that they do not want tp part with. The use of the phrase 'stark reality of being on its own' implies that if Scotland dissolved the union with England, that it would be worse of and be in some dark place is unbeleivable
Labour are living in some paralel universe there is no doubt about it!
Labour just dont trust the people of Scotland
Labour use the people of Scotland to prop up Labour
Its about time the people of Scotland and especailly those in Lanarkshire woke up and realised that Labour do not have the Scot's interests at heart, the only people they are interested in is keeping the status quo and keping time servers snouts in the Westminster trough!
358

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 05/05/2008 16:12:54
So MANY postings, so LITTLE said that has any meaning.

The usual suspects are here, of course, but I note the absence of comment from Boy Wonder and Charles Linskaill and Horrible Cankers.

Perhaps they are recovering from a very cozy weekend a trois ou a quatre ou a cinque?

Be that as it may, doe Wendy Alexander look so forbidding and dragon-like in real life? I wouldn't want to met HER in a dark alley (Shudder!).
359

Alfred E. Neuman,

05/05/2008 16:15:17
Rev S Campbell

Look, get it through your thick skull that noone wants independence bar 20% of the population who are hard-core nutters, racists, idiots and s**t-stirrers.

Everyone who reads the crap you post knows you are making the figures up or misrepresenting them.
360

The Strategist,

05/05/2008 16:19:57
#427

You're a football fan aren't you.
361

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 16:22:02
Alfred: you're starting your panic very early, I see.
362

Colin Allcars,

Fettes Avenue 05/05/2008 16:22:22
Whilst the postings on here are amusing, I am left with the feeling that the majority of people are bogged down in some union v independence quagmire.

For me, this article is about something completely different. I still remember the feeling of intense excitement when Blair was elected in 1997. You felt that something good was going to happen in Britain after years of sleaze and incompetence from the Major government and the fag end of Thatcher's reign.

I still remember listening to Gordon Brown talking about social justice, seeing Robin Cook in the Foreign Office talking about ethical government and ethical foreign polcies. I was genuinely impressed by the words of men who had waited over a decade to gain the people's trust and get into power.

Then look what we got! Spin, lies, manipulation and a lot of patronising. Labour has done one or two good things in office, but on balance they have been failures and rode on the back of Tony's charisma and its appeal to the middle classes.

Wendy is a tenth rate version of these patronising, arrogant, vile human beings and she cannot even carry out her orders effectively. Regardless of your political views and allegiances, you surely must agree that EVERYONE deserves better than this shower of shylocks!

Wendy, Gordon et al disgust me and will never get my vote! I do not forget betrayal that easily.
363

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 05/05/2008 16:24:47
a picture is worth a 1000 words and as her picture suggests "let's get it on"
casey purvis
364

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05/05/2008 16:27:50
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365

Mikey,

05/05/2008 16:28:11
Alfred, get it throught your thick and greasy skull that you're a loser of the worst kind! You will be re-educated you stupid arschloch!
366

CASEY PURVIS,

WEST HILLS 05/05/2008 16:28:49
#427 you might want to give me your address so i can look you up the next time i come to scotland.
lot of nasty names you called me.
casey purvis
wcp@earthling.net
367

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05/05/2008 16:32:06
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368

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging around 05/05/2008 16:36:57
I think we should have a referendum to decide whether we have a 2-question or 3-question referendum...
369

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 05/05/2008 16:47:19
I am English,yes and very proud of it whlist truely English tries to claim we have common backgrounds I disagee with him I do not think we do and I am we very delighted to say we DO NOT.You can have your Independence but remember it is principally Scots at Westminster voted in by Scots people in Scotland who are denying the English and a Referendum for our own Parliament.
It is also interesting to note that Wendy Alexander,a Scot, had to consult with Westminster before suggesting a referendum in Scotland for Independence.
370

Ken S.,

Reading 05/05/2008 16:50:36
#56 Royster,

"There has to be a single referendum with a simple choice. Stay part of the union and close Holyrood or have full independence.."

Absolutely correct.
Status quo is just trying to have your cake and eat it,whilst enhanced Holyrood would be an extra cherry on top.

If this neither-quite-in-nor-quite-out situation isn't resolved, you'll likely find it being resolved for you by increasing pressure for an English Parliament.The practical results of a federal system may not be to your liking and that would enhance support for full independence. If that is what the majority want, then that's just fine & dandy; ain't nowt wrong with that. If it isn't what you want. then tough!

371

Glaswegian,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 16:55:02

Wendy's entitled to do a U-turn over holding a referendum. As John Maynard Keynes said, "when circumstances change, I change my opinion". But what are those changed circumstances? Clearly it's the realisation that Labour is heading for defeat at the next General Election. Add a Tory government to the mix, and many more Scots will vote for independence. So Wendy has shifted her position in the hope of holding a poll before Labour lose power. Looked at in this way, it smacks of desperation. The question is, can the Labour Government bounce the Nationalists into a referendum ahead of the Election?
372

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 17:02:21
424. Just how big does the hook have to be before you actually notice it? Now that I've told you about it, let's see if you spot it....

Anyway, just to repeat the (what I thought was very) obvious:

Holyrood constituency vote (and I've just rechecked these):
Nov 07: SNP were 11% ahead of Labour
Jan 08: 9% ahead
Mar 08: 8% ahead
Apr 08: 5% ahead

Holyrood. NOT Westminster.
373

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:07:02
These are my principles..if you don't like them I have others ...
374

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05/05/2008 17:07:53
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375

Ken S.,

Reading 05/05/2008 17:07:53
#387 Alan B,
05/05/2008 14:32:46
"To any unionist that cares to answer:

Given that scotland does not vote tory and england does why do u think that scotland being governed by a party where there is little democratic mandate is a good thing?"

I'm not specifically a Unionist; simply content to either be in proper Union or else as independent nations (or maybe federation). It's this inbetween bit I object to.

However, with respect, your question is on the wrong baseline. The current UK parliamentary electoral system puts into power the party that gets the highest block of seats throughout the UK. I seem to recall that Labour got a majority in England. The fact that another party might or might not prevail in the next General Election is not a valid reason for advocating independence. What would be the corollary of that: application to rejoin the Union if a party you favoured was elected at a subsequent English GE and a party you disliked got in at a Scottish GE?
376

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 17:08:27
438. Why does 'close Holyrood' have to be an option?

Is it because that will win more votes for 'independence'?

How about Independence/Greater Powers/Status Quo?

Although even this seems irrelevant with support for independence now at the lowest ever.
377

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 17:10:44
443. Don't ever ask anyone to post links.

You never do with your endless ridiculous claims so you have no right to demand so of others.

Regardless, ask a semi-comatose monkey to find the polls for you, as you so clearly can't.
378

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 17:11:56
#441

Ah, so you're being even more desperately selective than we first thought. Sure enough, if you pick polls that support your view and say that others don't count because they're by the "wrong" company, or even by the same company but with slightly different criteria, you can "prove" just about anything. But only one vote counts - the one you've been saying for months we shouldn't have, and have now suddenly become an overnight convert to. I look forward to the outcome of it, and to you appearing the day after telling us you were always pro-independence.
379

Highland Mighty,

05/05/2008 17:14:26
447. No hypocrisy with you, is there.

Ignore all the polls that show decreasing support and only repeat ad nauseum those few that show increasing support....then complain bitterly when others do it.
380

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:16:25
The poll (system 3 26th - 29th April)showed the SNP on 45% of the constituency vote, with Labour on 31%, Tories on 12% and LibDems on 11%.

In other words the SNP is 14% ahead. Amazing.

Regional list: SNP 41% and 12 points ahead of Labour.

Truly amazing.
381

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:18:33
YouGov

SNP 36% on the constituency vote.. with Labour on 31%.
5% ahead. Not quite as amazing.

You Gov Regional vote. SNP on 37%, Labour on 28%.
9% ahead. Rather amazing.
382

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 17:19:45
449. As Highland Mighty has made clear, we Unionists do not like this poll, so shall ignore it.
383

Alan B,

05/05/2008 17:21:59
#Ken S

I think u miss my point. The argument for the union is that scotland and england would better deliver for its poeple as part of a union that separate. One of the problems for scotland within the union is the fact that england is so much bigger and effectively dominates.

If u look back to the 17yrs of tory rule. No matter what policies the tories brought in and no matter how bad the people of scotland perceived them to be (rightly or wrongly) scotland could not vote them out within the union.

One of the main reasons for devolution and in other countries federalism is due to the idea that different area may want different policies, have different problems and want different solutions.

The problem with the tories ruling the uk from a scotland point of view is they could easily have no mps what so ever. ie scotland views their policies as being totally inappropriate for scotlands problems and issues.

Many within scotland viewed the tories as running the uk for the benefit of england and probably more accurately the south of england.

As such the question remains. If politics have diverged so much so that the natural party of government in england is the tories and they are completely unelectable in scotland what happens. Currently scotland has to put up with a party it feels is not fit to govern scotland. England do not suffer this situation because they are so much bigger.

If scotland wants to stay in the union the price of that is accepting the party of government is 99% decided by england and scotland will have little say on this.
384

Brian M,

Eduinburgh 05/05/2008 17:24:14
Why does she want the SNP to "bring it on", can't she she put forward a private members bill calling for a referendum on independence
385

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:24:19
Taking the average of these polls

Constituency...SNP 40.5% ...Labour 31%
Regional... SNP 39% ...Labour 29.5%

Amazing.
386

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:25:07
Then again it's only a poll.
387

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 17:25:17
449. And we also do not like the Mail poll last week that showed the SNP 8 points ahead. And while we tolerate parts of the Telegraph poll showing the SNP 5 points head, we reject the part which said this:

Doing a good job?
Alex Salmond 53
Gordon Brown 26
Wendy Alexander 21
388

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:26:17
455

Why did you run 10 miles? Were you late for something?
389

,

05/05/2008 17:26:42
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390

Alan B,

05/05/2008 17:27:12
#Ken S

I think u really have to live through the 80s and 90s in scotland to understand the effect tory rule had in scotland.

Do u think england would put up with a situation where the party it voted out at the polls continuously over a period of 17yrs to the extent it had no mps left, would still be governing england? It simply would not happen.

391

acanthus,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 17:27:42
Well whatever anyone says Alex Salmond is miles ahead of just about everyone in Scottish politics and the only one who has any kind of credibility. Imagine anyone else in power in Scotland...really!
You can debate opinion polls until you are blue in the face and we are years away from an election so what is the point.
If anyone cared to read the articles from the Times and Telegraph it is taken as red there that the SNP is way ahead of Labour in Scotland and will remain so.
One other thing, go read the posts by some of the English on Brown and the other Scots in Parliament, see what they think of the 'smellies' as one of them stated! They clearly do not feel any need to preserve the Union.
Why not fo there and debate with the English about it..they seem far more angry than the Nationalists here!
392

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 17:29:02
445
Lowest ever?
Highland, get yourself off your chair, have a shower and brush your tooth.
Then take your courage in both hands and walk into a pub...
...And be yourself.

And as the ambulance takes you home, consider the merits of being polite, and truthful.
393

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05/05/2008 17:29:38
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394

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 05/05/2008 17:29:42
#448

Yawn. You discount all polls other that YouGov as worthless. But more than that, you even discount half of YouGov's polls, because they don't match up with your "theory". You may be the only person in the entire UK, including Wendy Alexander, who thinks Labour are catching up with the SNP. But carry on - it's giving us all a good chuckle.
395

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 17:31:15
465. Your chuckling will have no effect on Highland Mighty and myself. We are well used to people laughing at us.
396

westview,

sunny renfrewshire 05/05/2008 17:31:30
Is this weird wendy planning to join the SNP? Bet many of the present labour folk are also thinking about changing over to the winning party in Scotland.
397

Truely English,

05/05/2008 17:32:03
406
The Scottish people all speak English as do the English not Gaelic. Yes of course we have a shared culture otherwise why would Simon Cowell be in Scotland for the next programme.

The BBC and ITV speak to us in English and this is the language we all understand. Our Books, theatre, television, computer programmes are in English and not Russian or Swahili, therefore we are English or if you prefer British.

Scots are entitled to think they are not using English but what else are they speaking. Incidentally, friends from Inverness say the best English spoken anywhere is from their locality, followed by Morningside in Edinburgh and Kelvinside in Glasgow.
398

,

05/05/2008 17:33:20
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399

Geoff,

sa 05/05/2008 17:36:03
436 Montfords-and another referendum to decide whether the referendum on the 2 versus 3 question referendum ought to be held.
Or not.

Doyou remember Arther Haynes and Nicholas Parsons?
"What do you mean!"
"What do you mean what do I mean!!?"
" WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHAT DO I MEAN WHAT DO YOU MEAN!!"
400

,

05/05/2008 17:36:56
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401

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 17:37:07
470
FACT!!!
402

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:38:55
Nearly 500 posts. I'm amazed.
403

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 17:39:10
471
Hello Geoff, the acceptable face of unionism.
404

Alan B,

05/05/2008 17:40:29
#Truely English

What does it matter if we share a language. The issue is the union does not deliver for scotland.

U talk about sharing a culture. Explain then why scotland voted labour in the 80s and 90s and england voted tory. In scotland the tories were unelectable. Labour in england. Was that due to a different cultural outlook.

I agree there are similarities in popular culture, but u could say the same with us and the US as many films we watch with by american.

The issue of whether to go independent is more to do with better governance for scotland and having a better country for it.

405

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:41:55
Below is some old English. Language evolves. Who understands the following poem?

Mec se ueta uong, uundrum freorig,
ob his innaðae aerest cændæ.
Ni uaat ic mec biuorthæ uullan fliusum,
herum ðerh hehcraeft, hygiðonc....
406

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:43:17
476
Conan the Librarian™,
05/05/2008 17:39:10
471
"Hello Geoff, the acceptable face of unionism".

How do you know? Do you SKYPE each other? Amazing.
407

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 17:44:41
478
Excellent one Spook. Took the dugs a long walk but didn't put on lotion...AHHM BURNING...FACT!!!
408

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:47:49
I also have an example of early English
























See the dog
Jump dog jump
Dog called Spot
Smell its rump
409

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:48:42
Dogs too are amazing - in a canine sort of way.
410

,

05/05/2008 17:49:34
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411

Takes things at face value and is amazed,

05/05/2008 17:49:48
484

Polls have a margin of error +/- 3
The SNP may be 17% ahead.

Amazing.
412

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 17:51:53
486 hope you dont mind but im off to post that to the herald. everyone should see that............
413

acanthus,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 17:54:01
Anyway, let's be positive. At the very least Scotland will get more power and a possible overall SNP majority at the next election. The momentum carries forward as the Union is squeezed by a Tory Party in England eager to appease the English middle 'gin' classes..and gradually we drift apart..wonderful! Just let nature take it's course.
414

Brian M,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 17:54:06
more of a U-bend from Wendy

then when Broon tells her no and she changes her mind yet again it will become an S-bend or maybe a Z-bend.

415

pwd,

Hawick 05/05/2008 17:55:44
*406 Edward

Your use of "our culture" when referring to Gaelic and the kilt is seriously in error if you mean the culture of Scotland. Kilts, Gaelic and the like may be the culture of a small minority of West Highland Scots but the mainstream culture of the great majority of others is more Lowland/presbyterian/English. Gaelic has never been spoken either here or in the rest of the lowlands. As for the kilt, although there is currently a rather daft fashion of getting married in it, only members of pipe bands and a few eccentrics wear it.
416

,

05/05/2008 17:59:47
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417

Truely English,

05/05/2008 18:01:05
477
All countries like towns have differences within their borders otherwise they are not a society or nation. Yes, there are differences in accent or dialect even in Yorkshire, but it doesn't make it a different people or nation.
The English language helps us to stay as one country and binds us together as Britain
418

Truely English,

05/05/2008 18:03:31
491
Of course, you are 100% correct.
419

acanthus,

Edinburgh 05/05/2008 18:04:35
Unfortunatly that line of arguement did not work with the Americans, Canadians or just about anyone else! Stuid man, woman, whaever you are!
420

brownlie,

05/05/2008 18:05:43
455 The Spook

Please do not mention the word "strait" as Alfred E. is very sensitive about his jacket.

469 Truly English

I once went to a cricket match at Lords to immerse myself in English culture.

I was struck by the hauntingly beautiful song the England supporter were singing and I remember thinking "So this is what English culture is all about".

If memory serves the song goes:
"Barmy army, barmy army, barmy army, barmy army,
Chorus: Barmy army, barmy army, barmy army"

Repeat first verse and chorus all day - not at all boring.

421

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:07:15
isnt that a bit racist to the welsh? or the cornish or those who speak another language such as contonese etc?

and does that mean america is now part of the britain sorry i missed that. when did that happen?

awa ya bletherin totty.
422

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:09:10
503 was to you truly enlgish
423

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 18:09:56
501
The only way to stop Morris dancing is to buy him a nice warm pint.

And kneecap him.
424

Edward,

05/05/2008 18:10:52
#491 pwd,Hawick
Clueless to say the least!
Gaelic and Scots were the two main languages spoken before the union. English was a 'new' language which was also spoken. But by the late 19th century Gaelic had litrrelay been beaten out of use, as English was the languague taught in schools and gaelic and old scots became the secondary language (you can see from some of the early census records, it was asked if the person spoke Gaelic as well as English)
After the 1745 the Kilt and tartan were banned. The Jacobite rising in 1745 caused the Hanovarian government to ban the kilt and tartan so as to stamp out the culture that was the power base of the House of Stuart. The ban, imposed by an Act of Parliament of 1746, was called the Disarming Act.

I actually find your remark that 'few eccentrics wear it' a bit insulting
425

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:11:06
truly english and i suppose the little wars we fought with the government forces in 1745 when they came and battered scots brains out for daring to have a wee uprising where just an example of our "shared culture".
426

acanthus,

pwn 05/05/2008 18:11:20
What a twit you are. When you mention just about any town in Scotland you are using Gaelic. So it is part of your everyday culture. A pity you do not have the education to prevent youself from making such a stupid statement.
427

MartinR,

Inverness 05/05/2008 18:13:43
In the long run, this has the potential to effectively end the SNP as we know it, a party for full independence.

Let's suppose a referendum comes in 2010 with three options; the status quo, full blown independence, or more powers for the Parliament. The most likely result is that of 'more powers'. This will mean that the SNP will then go into the 2011 elections with 'we can promise to govern the best on a more powerful parliament', rather than 'we'll give you independence'. That will be off the table for at least 30 years. Do the SNP funamentalists (such as the contributors to this blog) realise this....?
428

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:14:57
and the highland clearances they where another time when we shared culture was it? were they similar to the london clearances?

and the refusual in 79 to give scots a parliament were another example of our "shared culture" and love for democracy were they?

and the sweaty sock jock comments etc they are culture too are they?

as is the scotland gets too much money under barnett?

oh aye its great this shared culture.

we also loved how you shared the mccrone report and the first year of the poll tax that was lovely.

429

acanthus,

05/05/2008 18:16:05
Edward,
I find it insulting too, anyone can wear the kilt and thousands feel proud wearing it. Also to refer to Gaels as a 'small monority of West Highland Scots' like they were and are some sort of insignificant museum piece i find also insulting. Whay a goof this man is!
430

Union is Best,

05/05/2008 18:18:23
509. Martin R - well said. No one thinks the SNP are doing well in government as we Unionist reject such findings.

Compared to Labour's competent, visionary and dynamic recent performance, the SNP are sure to lose!

Doing a good job?
Alex Salmond 53
Gordon Brown 26
Wendy Alexander 21
431

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:18:27
513 couldnt agree more but thats unionists for you.
432

Edward,

05/05/2008 18:21:12
#496 Truely English
The english language is not something that binds England to Scotland no more than it binds Australia to England. Also Britain or 'United Kingdom is not a country but a union of two countries, England and Scotland
433

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 18:21:59
509
That's a lot of pre-supposing Martin.

My brain hurts.
434

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:24:22
520 ah conan beware the unionist rune readers. they come bearing supposes. or should that be suppositories.
435

Anthony,

Glasgow 05/05/2008 18:28:46
I suspect I'm fairly typical of most Scots in that I'm quite pragmatic about independence. I'm not a nationalist by inclination, but nor do I believe the planets would shoot out of their orbits if Scotland became independent. In fact...there are some possible advantages - especially if England is going to vote for a bunch of Eton old boys to run the country. Think a Scotland with its own modern truly democratic constitution. Proportional representation? More social justice for the poor and underprivileged perhaps? A move away from the seesaw politics of Westminster which has so badly damaged this country? Hmmm - maybe just maybe.
436

Alan B,

05/05/2008 18:35:38
#MartinR

I think everyone knows that if there is a referendum then one side will lose. But atleast the people will have spoken.

U assume the people will not vote for independence. If the unionist parties were so sure they would have has a referndum before to kill it off. Despite the spinning over a period of yrs it is actually pretty evenly divided over wether scotland would vote independence or not.

Wendy has also raised the bar for the calman report, more power option. If they do not deliver significantly more powers then they could be in disarray. The problem with more powers and its seeming popularity is that no-one knows what it means. Dev max is generally assumed to mean fiscal autonomy, but none of the union parties are putting this view forward. Some like highland mighty a regular unionist poster says he advocates dev max but then backs away from its central policy of fiscal autonomy.

If the more power option is a damp squib then the more power option may not be attractive.

To a large extent if scotland just gets significantly more powers the snp will have advanced scotland anyway.

The other question that calman will probably fail to address is how to cope with a fairness for england.

What happens if we have a referendum and then the tories ban scottish mps from voting in westminster it changes the nature of the game.

If we have a powerful scottish parliament were only foreign policy, defence, currency and eu stuff is run by a central uk parliament how will that parliament work. Are scotland really going to have mps doing next to nothing in westminster, if the tories stop them voting on english matters.

The fact is significantly more powers will end up having its own dynamics.




437

Edward,

05/05/2008 18:40:49
The General Election has to be called between now and June 2010
The next Scottish Parliamentary Election is in May 2011

Labour want to force the issue of a referendum as they belief, that the earlier the referendum the better for the no vote, with a no vote, Labour will look good (this is what Labour actually believe). So in there warped thinking, if there is a referendum in 2009, they will win the no vote and put the Scots off thinking about voting anyone else other than Labour at a general election as they will have removed the main planks of the SNP manifesto. So will boost Labour chances in a general election which they probably plan to have just after the referendum, so Referendum in May 2009 then General election in the autumn of 2009.
This is Labour party strategy.
They will probably take some measures to noble the result such as insisting on the 40% rule as they did in 1979
438

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 18:42:13
right the hootsman has moved this article from the front page
439

Conan the Librarian™,

05/05/2008 18:42:53
523
Where's her Skean Dhu?
If she is without, I'd gladly give her one.
440

Jimmy the Pie,

05/05/2008 18:43:22
Just listened to Red Wendy on Radio Scotland news.

Utterly clueless - not really surprising that!

No wonder Alex and Nicola give her a kicking every week at FMq's.

Roll on Red Wendy's referendum
441

Alan B,

05/05/2008 18:50:06
#Edward

If wendy is going to have a 3rd question added then the referendum will not be before the summer of 2009 when calman reports.

there are also big questions like will brown still be there. will he hold out till spring 2010. if he does then a referndum will have to be sept/oct 2009 or 2010. The snp will not rush it as they will be happy to see the back of brown.

I personally cannot see how a 3 question referendum can work. It may be more sensible to have a 2 question independence or calman. STV for a referendum will not necessarily result in the most popular option.



442

Edward,

05/05/2008 18:50:35
#522
Im like you Im not a nationalist by inclination either. Ive allways supported the Labour part, but the old Labour party, not this managerial (over managed) right wing version. I also think that if Scotland is to get on, then it has to be Independent, so regardless of the right wing governments that take power in London, Scotland can be its own boss.
After watching the local elections and the people that 'Dave' has around him and compare with new labour, I would say that the Tories have the edge of appeal over tired out new labour (I remember the wife remark of the people around David Cameron as being all young and enthusiastic compared with Gordon Brown). So I would say its a racing certainty that the Bullingham Club will win the next election, regardless of the promises made by Gordon Brown or his successor.
I think the next key event will be the by election May 22nd. even if Labour hold onto the seat, it will be the margin that they manage to get, will be of interest and an idicator. If they loose that, then a blood bath surely will follow
443

Independence, you say? What a marvelous idea!,

05/05/2008 19:08:56
Douglas Alexander speaking on BBC Radio's Good Morning Scotland programme played down claims of a U-turn by Ms Alexander, saying: "She's long believed in the case for a referendum in terms of fundamental constitutional change."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7383710.stm

Extract of BBC Scotland interview on 28 March 2008:

Q. Brian Taylor: John Ferry of Benbecula asks why don't you have a
referendum, why do you deny the people of Scotland the right to decide in
a referendum if they want independence or your devolution plus option?

A. Wendy Alexander: We were in favour of devolution, we came up with
scheme, we took it to the people, people voted for a devolved parliament.
We now have that.

I'm not going to pre-judge the outcome of Sir Kenneth enquiry, one of the
things is that if you set up an independent enquiry then you have to let
it reach a judgement about how significant the changes it is proposing
are.

And you know, if the SNP want to advocate independence then that's up to
them, but they have to win a majority in parliament, for them to pursue
this and they currently don't have it.

Q. Brian Taylor: If you think you are right that devolution plus is as you
said, 'vastly popular' then why not put it to the test by asking the
people?

A. Wendy Alexander: Well you are asking me about devolution plus and what
I said is lets wait and see what Kenneth comes up with.

Q. Brian Taylor: Why are you against the referendum? What's wrong with it?

A. Wendy Alexander: Because I don't believe in independence, it's as
simple as that.

Q. Brian Taylor: So you think you might lose that's why you are against
the referendum?

A. Wendy Alexander: No far from it. If you believe in independence argue
for it.

Q. Brian Taylor: Well why not put it to the test?


A. Wendy Alexander: It's not my politics. I didn't come into politics to
rip Scotland out of the UK. Those who want it should argue for it.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h
444

Independence, you say? What a marvelous idea!,

05/05/2008 19:10:32
#531 Meths I believe the deleted user who said that has since been banned for posting something strikingly similar to post 532...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7317115.stm
445

Hamish Scott,

05/05/2008 19:10:32
Ideal referendum time - after Tories win the Westminster election in 2010 and whilst England take part in the 2010 World Cup with the full support of the British media.
446

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 19:11:26
oh dear we appear to have lost the brian taylor wendy alexander thing let me remind people

Douglas Alexander played down claims of a U-turn by Ms Alexander, saying: "She's long believed in the case for a referendum in terms of fundamental constitutional change."


Extract of BBC Scotland interview on 28 March 2008:

Q. Brian Taylor: John Ferry of Benbecula asks why don't you have a
referendum, why do you deny the people of Scotland the right to decide in
a referendum if they want independence or your devolution plus option?

A. Wendy Alexander#: We were in favour of devolution, we came up with
scheme, we took it to the people, people voted for a devolved parliament.
We now have that.

I'm not going to pre-judge the outcome of Sir Kenneth enquiry, one of the
things is that if you set up an independent enquiry then you have to let
it reach a judgement about how significant the changes it is proposing
are.

And you know, if the SNP want to advocate independence then that's up to
them, but they have to win a majority in parliament, for them to pursue
this and they currently don't have it.

Q. Brian Taylor: If you think you are right that devolution plus is as you
said, 'vastly popular' then why not put it to the test by asking the
people?

A. Wendy Alexander: Well you are asking me about devolution plus and what
I said is lets wait and see what Kenneth comes up with.

Q. Brian Taylor: Why are you against the referendum? What's wrong with it?

A. Wendy Alexander: Because I don't believe in independence, it's as
simple as that.

Q. Brian Taylor: So you think you might lose that's why you are against
the referendum?

A. Wendy Alexander: No far from it. If you believe in independence argue
for it.

Q. Brian Taylor: Well why not put it to the test?


A. Wendy Alexander: It's not my politics. I didn't come into politics to
rip Scotland out of the UK. Those who want it should argue for it.
447

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 19:12:49
hootsman dont even think aboot it.......... or we are going to post the fact you deleted it.
448

Hamish Scott,

05/05/2008 19:12:55
#532
Interesting BBC update from a Herald poster:

"Well according to Reporting West Central Scotland and Old Firm Football Wendy Alexander has 'for the first time' decided in favour of a straightforward yes/no single question on referendum - no mention of a u-turn, no questioning of Alexander in a way any normal 'national' news programme would undertake. And the red, white and blue studio and graphics is lovely, but reminds me of something - subliminal propaganda to go with the more obvious stuff?"
449

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 19:13:25
hootsman you have been warned.

450

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 19:14:49
538 rubbish its not the first time she said last year yes there will be a referendum then she said no and now shes saying yes again

yeah but no but yeah.
451

Displaced Scot,

UK 05/05/2008 19:19:48
This is an important vote and ALL SCOTS should have a vote, even those of us who live in other parts of the UK.
I want my vote it is only a HUMAN RIGHT.
It is not upto the SNP to break up the UK, it involves everyone in the UK.
452

Geoff,

sa 05/05/2008 19:22:35
476 Conan the librarian-Hi Conan howrya doin!
492 Meths-Hi meths-just remind me-how do i open the link? If I dont hear from u i'll ask one of the youngsters at the office tomorrow. congrats on the 500 by the way(jammy bu*ger)
453

danielrober,

05/05/2008 19:22:53
'IF' the leader of the Labour party is now backing separation, this is just another form of back stabbing. The Labour party has played the UK cards, the Military cards and the Referendum cards, over the last decade.

Now a natual change in government is ocurring, these guys don't want to pay the bill. First no referendum on Europe, now it looks like no new equipment for the Armed Forces and now backing separation. Back stabbing all the way. This is just more evidence of the few people actually involved in the succesful Blair/Brown years.
454

danielrober,

05/05/2008 19:24:11
# 541 Displaced Scot,UK

D*m right.
455

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 19:24:47
been over at the herald apparently wendy just got slaghtered on channel four becaue she couldnt say when she had her road to damascus experience. i missed it darn.
456

karinxxx,

05/05/2008 19:25:55
541 well support a party in rump uk that wants rest of uk independence then.
457

Independence, you say? What a marvelous idea!,

05/05/2008 19:26:07
+ C4 News is your friend Karinka