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No case for Holyrood to lose powers – devolution review chief



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Published Date: 26 April 2008
SIR Kenneth Calman, who will head the Scottish Constitutional Commission, last night said he did not believe there was a case for powers to be transferred back to Westminster from Holyrood.

Sir Kenneth, the Chancellor of Glasgow University, was speaking exclusively to The Scotsman ahead of the 15-member commission's first meeting at the Scottish Parliament on Monday.

He also said he believed that a transfer of control over areas such as broadcasting, control of Scotland's seas, firearms legislation and drug abuse laws, as well as economic powers, to Holyrood should be considered.

Sir Kenneth said: "We have a clear remit voted for by a large majority of MSPs. That is that we secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.

"I am a passionate Scot who is happy to live in the United Kingdom.

"I have lived in London and in the north-east of England and I never felt like a foreigner, as I hope English people do not feel like foreigners in Scotland."

Sir Kenneth said he was working on the "gut feeling" that devolution and the Scottish Parliament had been a success, but "we have to quantify that and provide evidence".

And he said that he saw "no case for powers being taken away from Scotland", adding: "There are areas, such as broadcasting, firearms legislation, drug-abuse laws and marine legislation (where] we should consider (giving control to the Scottish Parliament].

"We have to provide detailed evidence and reasons to change the status quo. There may be other areas we need to explore."

The academic said that questions over tax-raising powers and oil revenues would be "the most complex" and revealed that, for these areas, he intends to work with "a group of specialists".

Sir Kenneth also dismissed the SNP's claims that the commission would not engage with members of the public, unlike their "national conversation".

He said: "These are not rival processes. I will be using the national conversation, especially its papers on devolution.

"I hope the Scottish Government will co-operate with us.

"We will have our own website and we will go round the country and encourage groups to write to us with their observations.

"It will not be an expensive commission, but we will do what we can to engage Scotland. We will also regularly publish papers on which people can comment."

LOOKING AT SCOTLAND IN THE UK

THE Scottish Constitutional Commission will be made up of 15 members, including academics, politicians from the three main unionist parties, community group representatives and faith representatives.

It has been set up to look at Scotland's place within the UK ten years on from devolution, following an initiative from Labour's Scottish leader Wendy Alexander, supported by the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.

It will publish an interim report by the end of this year with a final report to go to Holyrood and Westminster by next spring.

Sir Kenneth Calman, the chairman of the commission, has promised that regular discussion papers and direction papers will be produced along the way.

Alongside this is the SNP's rival National Conversation which is also asking people about more powers for Scotland and, unlike the commission, is looking at the case for independence.

The full article contains 546 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 April 2008 11:51 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 00:03:26
Salmond has disgraced himself and Scotland once more.
2

Sanny,

26/04/2008 00:50:18
I note the three Unionist parties are included on this commission. If they are honest then they would admit that this commission has only come into being BECAUSE of the SNP success at the polls and the current demand by 40+% of the population. And yet the SNP are not members of this commission? WHY???

I suspect that this commission will throw us a few scraps, in the hope this will satisfy us and the independence issue will be quiet for a few more years, whilst Westminster continues to rob us of our resources. We can be certain that Westminster will not let go until our resources are all but gone and they perceive us as a potential liability.

Let us not be fooled by this commission and be prepared to fight for what is rightfully ours. For the three hundred years that we have been saddled with this London Centric Government. This is not only the weakest government we’ve had in Westminster but also the weakest opposition; we must take full advantage of this weakness and seize our independence!

As for the congenital idiot Alfred perhaps he should burn a few more scones. Alfred if you are incapable, as your previous post have clearly shown, of constructing a coherent argument or simple comment then stay silent.
3

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 00:53:08
4 Sanny

I thought the poll showing 41% was a poll of 997 people.

Why are you claiming it is 41% of the population now, the poll was not a sample of 5,000,000.

I now it's a lovely fantasy for you, but I do not want to have a repeat of yesterday when SNP voters were posting links to beast club.
4

Jimmy the Pie,

26/04/2008 01:08:06
#1 Alfie

Are you the full shilling??
Alex Salmond's name isn't mentioned once in the above article. You must be one of the cyber idiots Lard Foolkes was wittering on about.

5

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 26/04/2008 01:42:51
5.

What you want is irrelevant? What you will get is the opinions of the posters as they see fit to post.

If you don't like the opinions you read, go past them or refute them, just like we do with you.

Be the fool if you want... you are not alone.
6

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 26/04/2008 02:06:26
The best that can be hoped for is that this commission will deliver the 3rd option in the referendum. Since it has chosen as its remit to exclude Independance as an area of enquiry.

Once it has conculed its work, the Scottish people must be given the choice between Status Quo, Devolution 2 and outright Independence.

We will have to see if our elected repesentatives will trust us with deciding on changes to the constitutional make up or will they once again institute changes without consulting the people as they did with the Lisbon Treaty.
7

Stefan Mack,

Inverness 26/04/2008 02:12:54
sir kenneth calman said:

"I am a passionate Scot who is happy to live in the United Kingdom.

"I have lived in London and in the north-east of England and I never felt like a foreigner, as I hope English people do not feel like foreigners in Scotland."

yes sir kenneth, because of course independence would mean an iron curtain descending between england and scotland, eh?

people would be unable to see their relatives and armies would assemble on the borders to wage endless bitter fights.

*the unionist looking glass on an independent scotland*

fortunately a growing number of scots no longer accept this twaddle.


8

FrancesP,

26/04/2008 02:19:58
#4. "I thought the poll showing 41% was a poll of 997 people.

Why are you claiming it is 41% of the population now, the poll was not a sample of 5,000,000."

You're only one step away from the Highland Mighty-style logic that, because 41% of 997 amounts to only 409 people, and because those 409 people are only 0.008% of the Scottish population, the survey in fact constitutes conclusive proof that 99.992% vehemently oppose independence!

Back in the real world, most people understand the well-established fact that a properly-conducted survey of 1000 people will produce an accurate representation of the views of the whole population (within a 3% margin of error) nineteen times out of twenty.
9

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 26/04/2008 02:42:53
4 a little something to make your night....NOT

Some good news today for all residents CyberNats.

YouGov has released a poll for the Telegraph which shows a collapse in Labour vote not only in the south but now in Scotland as well

Scottish results for Westminster are as follows

SNP 35
Labour 28
Conservative 22
LibDem 12
Green 3

According to Electoral Calculus, these numbers would result in the following seats.

SNP 25
Labour 21
Conservative 7
LibDem 6

Seems to be headed the way the FM wanted it on the weekend.
10

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 26/04/2008 02:44:26
Make that NOTE not NOT
11

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 02:44:33
Should have read:

"No case for the Unionist devolution review chief"
12

An Beal Bacht,

26/04/2008 02:54:51
The arrogance of the unionists is breathtaking. The "commission" and its "chief" have already ruled out what an overwhelming majority of Scots want. But he asks the Scottish Government will cooperate with them? What gall!
13

mesmiths,

fife 26/04/2008 03:09:37
Have to say I'm pleasently suprised by this. The westminster scotlab lot will absolutely hate it, which seems alot like a validation. I look forward to the findings and how they will parallel the national conversation.
14

­­Alfred E. Neuman­­,

26/04/2008 03:27:55
#6 Jimmy the Pie,

Alfred E. Neuman is a Multi-Monikered Troll financed through the public purse as a "researcher" for said Lord Foulkes.

It is he who has spent most of the last three days Cloning Monikers (including his own) to post comments and links for the promotion of bestiality and far worse perversions up to and including Unionism.

He is seeking to destroy this forum and may well succeed.

If you wish to assist him in his noble mission here is his login and password.

madman@unionist.co.uk

highlandmighty

P.S. I got this via a FOI request.
15

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 03:48:07
Looks like Broon will be knifed in the back by Milliband in the next couple of months.

Des Browne, Douglas Alexander, Alistair Darling, David Cairns and the rest of the London Controlled New Labour Party will be looking for new Jobs. Well they wont find any up here. I suggest they think about migrating back to their beloved London on a permanent basis.

25 SNP MP's and counting. Looks like we will hold the balance of power in Westminster. Not that doing that is a permanent condition as we will be calling in the United Nations to supervise the handover of powers to the Elected Scottish Government of the day. The 32 million quid of oil taxes a day that the Westminster take from our economy together with the taxes from general economy plus the inclusion of taxes from exclusive fishing of Scottish Waters by Scottish Trawlers only and the generation of duties from a Scottish Government supporting the Whisky Industry.

The OilP plant at Grangemouth should be a Nationalised resource that is contracted out to a private company at rates that make it attractive to Scots and the commercial sector should be first on a list of things to do for an Independant Government.

Everyday we are getting that bit closer to reclaiming our right to run our own affairs. People treated Alex Salmonds discussions about 25+ MP's in Westminster as a ridiculous thing that could not happen.

As we all know The Eck has proved to be a very astute Leader of Scots. His predictions and actions have been to the benefit of all Scots who are now walking that little bit taller, with the head just being that bit higher. The World will soon be our oyster, so lets make sure we give it everything we can. An Independant Scotland with an aggressive business outlook balanced with a left of centre Socially Democratic Government can accomplish anything it chooses. Its up to us to throw off the shackles that have stopped the Scottish Government from solving the Petrol crisis, or the closure of the JVC fa
16

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 03:50:52
Scottish Government from solving the Petrol crisis, or the closure of the JVC factory.

We could have at least asked the company if it would like lower Corporate Taxes. Would it have been an influence on keeping them in Scotland instead of going to Poland.
17

Willie Macleod,

Wick 26/04/2008 06:31:42
#14 How are you all the best Willie we will talk latter
18

Boaby,

Glasgow 26/04/2008 07:19:31
Does this mean Sir Kenneth will be sacked for not doing his job properly? Surely he was given this job to recommend handing back powers to Westminster and the safe hands of the charismatic Des Browne?

Wendy will not be pleased and Nicol will probably wet his trousers like he did at FMQ's on Thursday when he made a total clown of himself again.
19

john z,

edinburgh 26/04/2008 07:41:54
Dear Sir Kenneth Calman,

As a 'passionate scot', I am sure you will remember that we now have a democratically elected government. It sits in the Parliament in Holyrood, Edinburgh, Scotland.

Forgive me, but I do not recall you being elected to said parliament, or indeed being part of this democratically elected government.

I am sure you are enjoying you're little self dellusory power trip, but policy on Scottish Parliament powers is not yours to decide. Unless of course you choose to stand for election to the Scottish Parliament.

A small point, but an important one, don't you think, Kenneth??
20

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 26/04/2008 08:04:47
Calman is advocating back-door Federalism here: granting more powers to the States, leaving National shared matters to Parliament. Way to go!

Independence is no guarantee of success. Plenty of basket cases around to prove this.
21

McX,

26/04/2008 08:10:06
Nice to see Sir Kenneth advocating more powers, particularly with regard to broadcasting and marine legislation. Although I suspect some of our more dribbling unionists will still advocate that this must be reserved to Des Browne and David Cairns.

However, I take polite exception to the following statement:

"I am a passionate Scot who is happy to live in the United Kingdom.

"I have lived in London and in the north-east of England and I never felt like a foreigner, as I hope English people do not feel like foreigners in Scotland."

Now according to the UK National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Sir Kenneth, belongs to group (1), Whereas say, for example a steelworker, let's call him Andy from Hamilton, belongs to group (5) Semi-routine and routine occupations.

Does Sir Kenneth really believe that he and Andy frae Hamilton will share exactly the same experiences of living in London and the north-east of England?

Sir Kenneth as a University Chancellor will have found his life down south in the rarefied air of academia, evenings of cheese and wine, bridge, theatre and dinner parties. Whereas yer man Andy from Hamilton will have sought his evening entertainment in the local pub. Are the people they meet exactly the same, with the same notions of nationality, identity and class? Don't think so...and this applies equally to a Shane from Essex and a Sir Nigel from Cambridge moving to Scotland. Shane and Andy are the more likely to feel like foreigners in the others country that Sirs Ken and Nigel. Division, hostility and 'feeling foreign' are class factors more than anything else.
22

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:14:21
Holyrood is an expensive talking shop full of failed 3rd rate politicians.
Many of which cant even speak English.
God forbid they are given anymore powers.
Christina Macelvey on newsnight this week being a prime example. What am embarrassment.
23

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:17:08
I just heard on the news that Nicola Sturgeon has bitten 3 people.
24

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:20:54
#23

Shane from Essex?

Andy from Hamilton?

Please get some therapy before its too late.
25

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 08:25:44
Is Alex Salmond still being paid as a Westminster MP?

I wonder how many times he has been down there in the last year.

If he is taking a salary for that then its tantamount to fraud.
26

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 26/04/2008 08:29:30
I have lived in Scotland,England and Finland.I have a Finnish wife and we have 3 daughters who live in 3 different countries (Scotland,Holland and Finland).My half brother lives in London and my couson who lives in Paris has a french wife.We regard independence as the norm.I regard myself as Scottish and European.Actually I am an internationalist who wants independence for Scotland.Professor Calman needs to factor into his analysis that, these days, that while Scots want to retain the social relationship with England and Wales, and Ireland,they also understand that Europe is larger than the British Isles.

Independance will enable Scotland to have social relationships with many additional European countries.It will also provide opportunities to grow the economy faster.This opportunity is now being recognised by a growing number of economists and business people.I'm not against what Professor Calman is proposing,but only see it as a step in the right direction.Certainly we do need to test the water and include full independance as an option,but I think that the unionist parties are not yet mature enough to understand why.

27

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:38:08
10 Frances P-leaving aside the eternal battle and just focusing on polls/statistics I recall the wonderful headline the year Truman was elected in the USA-Dewey Wins! A sample of 1000 people is in my view too small a number to be able to guage whether it is accurate or no. In the heated passion of the Independence debate kitchen, a small sample can be easily skewed by robust canvassing! No accurate conclusions can be derived from one poll-esp a small one. Having said that one can discern a trend to the SNP and (possibly) Independence but growing SNP support MAY reflect a backlash against Labour as a large contributing factor as well as satisfaction with the way the SNP are handling government in SCOTLAND>
28

McX,

26/04/2008 08:41:41
#26 As you've obviously attempted remediation of a mental health problem, I'll defer to your superior knowledge on the subject pausing only to ask whether you underwent electric shock therapy, animal assisted therapy, Pharmacotherapy or as is most likely Playing-with-your-own-poo therapy?

#28 Suomi, first time correspondent, long time reader. you hit the nail on the head there feller, the unionist parties, with perhaps the bewildering exception of Bella G are not mature enough to udestand.
29

Talorthane,

26/04/2008 08:43:18
Is this devolution review not in breach of both human rights legislation and Parliamentary standards on the use of public funds for party political purposes?


Firstly, this review, as it is funded from the budgets from both the Scottish Parliament and the Westminster Parliament, must surely be classed as a public service or public body.

As it is funded by general taxation then it is paid for by your tax, my tax and everyone else's, regardless of their political persuasion.

The purpose of the review is to determine the future constitutional arrangements of Scotland. However, they have made it clear that they exclude the views of anyone who holds a particular view on that very issue; i.e. independence. I would certainly like to participate in this review, in order to advocate my own preference, but because my view is that Scotland should be independent then I am automatically prevented from doing so, or will have my views ignored.

In pursuing it's main aim the review will discriminate against those with a particular belief or political view; that Scotland's best constitutional future is independence. This seems to be contrary to human rights legislation.


Secondly, the funds are being drawn from both Holyrood and Westminster. As I understand it, these funds are prohibited from party political use. While the review is clearly not set up to serve the interests of any single party, everyone acknowledges that it has been set up to undermine a particular political party; i.e. the SNP. Surely, the use of funds to mobilise other parties against another, individual party is just as party political as a single party using it for their own ends.

If either of these arguments are valid, then surely the parties involved should have to pay for this review from their own budgets, instead of at the public's expense.

And if this is the case, surely any expenditure to date (if claimed) would be illegal.
30

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:43:57
Also further to my post at 29 I would comment on the headline"No sh*t Sherlock"! No matter where one sits politically it is clear that there is no support for a return to centralism in UK politics-Labour to blame/thank depending on wher u sit! Also the debate must be all embracing-independent reviews/commisions-whether Nat or Uni are a waste of time-all Scots TOGETHER need to debate this one. As a Unionist I think it is in our interest not to create more them/us politics.
31

pehman,

sussex 26/04/2008 08:44:33
So it's finally hit redfaced wendy that handing back powers to w/minster, would be be handing back to tory control
32

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:49:13
25 Rule Britannia-:)
33

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 08:49:19
25 Rule Britannia-:)
34

GM,

26/04/2008 08:51:28
@1 and @16

Maybe its too early in the morning for me, but could you reconcile your posts at 1 and 16 please?

(or is it the case (***again***) that you forgot to change your login name before hitting the 'post comment' button just like Highland Mighty did a few weeks back when he caught himself out using different monikers?)
35

Gordon lying traitor scum,

26/04/2008 08:51:45
Outspoken Arizona Senator Questions 9/11 Official Version Of Events

State Sen. Karen Johnson, R-Mesa, has come under fierce criticism for going on record with her doubts over the government's version of events surrounding the 9/11 attacks. Following a vote in the Senate Appropriations Committee on Arizona's 9/11 Memorial, Johnson told Capitol reporters "There are many of us that believe there's been a cover-up."
36

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:00:40
I wonder what Shane from Essex would make of this all.
Maybe Mr X can tell us.

I wonder if he was in the sample of 1000 people. Maybe even Andy Hamilton.

I bet Mr X has loads of friends. Albeit imaginary ones.
37

Alfred E. Neuman,

26/04/2008 09:01:36
36 GM

A harcore SNP nutty campaigner is pretending to be me by copying my username. I don't know how they do it, but it's hardly playing fair.
38

Terrier2,

26/04/2008 09:02:08
18 A Better Way,Edinburgh 26/04/2008 03:50:52
Scottish Government from solving the Petrol crisis, or the closure of the JVC factory.

We could have at least asked the company if it would like lower Corporate Taxes. Would it have been an influence on keeping them in Scotland instead of going to Poland.


Of course corporation tax should come down - but the French government who are about to take over presidency of the EU are already proposing a common corporation tax rate across the whole of the EU. Under their 'Social Model' this can only mean them going up. Looks like 'Independent' Scotland will not be so independent afterall.



39

brownlie,

26/04/2008 09:04:12
24 Rule

Awesome post and a sensational and sensitive contribution to our noble unionist cause.

A word to the wise, however. If we are to claim that some MSPs cannot speak English we should not use phrases like "some of which cant speak English" and "What am embarrassment". Cant is what we unionists do best and can't is what we tell the independent movement.
40

Senga Jean,

26/04/2008 09:04:36
#40 I have outed you as editor of MAD magazine. Very appropriate.
41

Senga Jean,

26/04/2008 09:06:34
#41 YOU HAVE MADE THE CASE FOR INDEPENDENCE. The real powers to solve these problems have been retained in LONDON.
42

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:06:39
#38 why should we waste money on an independence referendum?
The task is simple.
The SNP is going to win so many seats that they will have Westminster "dancing to a Scottish jig" (hilarious I know).
Once that happens, Toad of Toadhall will be able to have any referendum he wants.
43

Ken S.,

Reading 26/04/2008 09:07:45
Is it not rather odd that the chairman of a review commission has already taken a particular stance even before the commission's first meeting? It rather tarnishes the perceived objectivity of such a body in examining a range of options.
44

brownlie,

26/04/2008 09:08:28
40 Alfred E.

As a fellow unionist you have my sympathy. It is hardly fair. It is a big improvement but, as you say, it is hardly fair.
45

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:09:09
40 Alf-on that subject whilst I admit to being older and thus less computer able, I also would have thought that the Scotsman moderator could end this kind of abuse by allowing only one of each name and by barring the fakeys whose only intent is to confuse the debate and cause trouble. I'm all for allowing any views-even the most extreme, but this adolescent nonsense serves no good purpose
46

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 09:09:42
The United Kingdom is now a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name.

Like archaeopteryx, the dodo, beaver skin top hats, and naval reviews at Spithead, the 20th Century centralised British State is Long Gone With The Wind.

Devolved Government in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales is now the status quo.

Any future attempt by Westminster, for whatever reason, real or imagined, to amend or abolish Devolution would have to be taken on a tripartite basis? It is highly unlikely that politicians or voters in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales would seek to return to a centralised British State, and any attempt to do so can only have one inevitable outcome, especially in the case of Scotland's future within this unitary state!
47

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:10:19
#42 I make these postings from my mobile. Because of T9, it sometimes formulates words I did not mean. Also with the screen being so small it is hard to spot errors.
48

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:15:16
43 Senga Jean-Hi SJ! From Mad mag wen I was a yout-Sensational Feats-
Hiram P. Klotz once jumped into a bathtub of water from a thousnd feet tower!!!!

small print under"He was smashed to bits"!
49

McX,

26/04/2008 09:18:58
#39 Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves

It's not your fault Rule Britannia, it's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. It's NOT your fault, it's not your fault, it's not YOUR fault.

There there old chap, let the tears flow. It's not your fault.
50

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:21:17
49-wise words and true! But centralism is not needed to create a nation with a strong sense ,paradoxically, of nationhood. The USA is the perfect example-individual states have wide ranging powers including on such major issues as the death penalty, yet there is an enormous cohesive patriotism focussed on the Union. The Federal kingdom of Great Britain and Northern ireland could and should be the same-a nation of 4 nations!
51

Rule Britannia, Britannia Rules the Waves ,

26/04/2008 09:26:13
Did you see Salmond on the news last night lording it over the Grangemouth oil dispute?
He reeled off a list of countries that were helping out.
He could not, however, bring himself to say that one of them was England.
No. We cant be seen to be dependant on the country that Kenny MacAskill referred to as "The Great Satan".
52

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 26/04/2008 09:28:24
#49 Mr Lachie Todd.

Britain a quasi Federal State? We'll see.

Historically Britain has always been one nation (the gene pool proves it), but with local competition for local chieftainship (call them kings if you must). What is happening now is that after a spell of enforced centralism that hasn't worked we are now reverting to a successful formulae we evolved over thousands of years. Sad thing is that the historically limited don't understand this. That they want to call us after a band of colonists named the Scotti proves their numptiness.

Federal/conFederalism works well in many countries. Independence has failed in many small countries. Let us learn these two lessons lest we are swept into oblivion by ill-informed zealots.
53

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 09:42:17
31 Talorthane.

Interesting post. Some comments...

The 'Commision to review' passed a SP vote, so technically it is the will of the parliament from that angle. However this is definitely pa olitical and constitutional debate. It should be inclusive. What we have is a form of political racism.

Clearly the weight of unionist majority has been used to isolate the position of the minority government, their views ans the many people they represent and other politically like minded groups such as the Greens.

The UK Government is leading and backing this commision which is ignoring and criticising the views of our elected government. This is what concerns me most as it is clearly external political interference of represesntives of 92% of an electorate from outside this country.

For me it boils down to this: At a stretch we can say that the Scottish commision cleared a democratic Scottish vote. However they have no democartic right to go against and exclude the views of a large minority in a constitutional debate.

Imagine all the non catholic politicians in Scotland were to review closing down all catholic schools and catholics are exluded from the entire proceedings!
On the same lines they would be saying:
Ah but non catholic politicians won the vote - its democratic.
Ah but we dont belive Scotland should have religious schools.
Ah but the UK governent most of whom are anglican should lead the review for Scotlands best interests.

====
The review is therefore a unionist biased, narrow, conceited, morally bankrup, politically racist review runfrom a foreign Government aided by its puppet Scottish based politicians united to block constitutional change for this country.

Someone should be asking about the moral and legal aspects of such a process and hopefully the council of Europe are keeping a close eye on things.
54

McX,

26/04/2008 09:46:18
#54 It's not your fault.
55

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 09:50:11
57 Methalions-hi meths. Hope u are well-hows the Iberian weather-lovely day here!
55 Rulesbutnot..Hi rules. broadly on the same page as you but as you know the scientists say we are all one-H*mo sapiens so I would say nations/races are forged by geography and history-not blood or genes so much. I would like to think that we are "all britons"-tha from the heart.
Again tho,despite my comments re H*mo s.(moderator wont let ME use the "H" word for some obscure reason) clearly there is an observable difference between for example a pale,boney red headed Scot and a small brown skinned San Khoi(formally known as Bushmen) Maybe we were on an evolutionary path to the creation of different sub species as happens elsewhere in the animal kingdom but globalisation has put paid to that!
56

Edward,

26/04/2008 09:51:23
#54
Hate to p*ss on your parade, BUT
what exactly is England doing to help out in this industrial action??
57

Lulach mac Gille Coemgáin,

26/04/2008 10:00:22
Sheesh!

The Union now offers nothing but hinderence to Scotland!
58

European Scot,

26/04/2008 10:02:59
53 Geoff

Geoff, you are going down the same route so many Unionists use, comparing the States of the USA, with the country of Scotland.
Apples with apples please.
As for patriotism, I would admit to a feeling of patriotism, in the sense, love of country, but it's not for a Britain, or a United Kingdom, it's for Scotland.
A Federal Kingdom ?
For me the bottom line is Scotland at the UN, and at the European table.
Federal doesn't provide for either of these.
Regarding the EU, what is the point of having one 'Union' inside another Union ?
I would prefer to see Scotland speaking for itself, and dealing directly with other countries.
A Scotland in Europe may not be perfect, but it would be infinitely better than where it is right now.
59

Jwil,

26/04/2008 10:08:45
The Westminster government will be under no obligation to implement anything that this man comes up with, so "beware of false prophets".
60

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:12:21
67-what Kenny ACTUALLY meant in his bumbling dyslescic way was the Saint Granta-again reffering to the South's charitable largesse toward the Heathens of the Wild North!
61

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:14:30
or the "Grate Santa" whose bag of goodies consists only of fireside accesories...
62

Edward,

26/04/2008 10:15:03
Some interesting points raised about the Scottish Constitutional Commission (which Gordon Brown prefers to call a Scottish Constitutional Review or Working Party)
Firstly it has been set up by a political party who are not in government
Secondly it ignores the ongoing ‘National Conversation’ which the elected Scottish Government set up, so that ALL the people can get involved about discussing their future.
Now as it is not part of a Scottish Government review, it can only draw on the backing of the UK Government, so as to draw on Tax payer’s money to fund it. BUT it will ignore a section of tax payers who want Independence.
Now I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that a commission, any commission, took evidence from ALL interested parties and would look at ALL points concerning the topic in hand, in this case the future of Scotland. In addition that the commission would only make comment, once it has finished its investigations and issued a report on its findings. But we have here the chairman of the Scottish Constitutional Commission, making comment on the hoof, like some kind of running commentary. Now if it was a ‘Working Party’, I would understand this. But what this tells us is that he is being briefed by Labour. Remember when this was set up, Labour stated that some powers may return to Westminster, But this has proven unpopular (to say the very least), so Labour’s spin doctors have no doubt advised that this stand should be changed. But why did Kenneth Calman state anything, why not wait until the ‘commission’ makes its conclusions?
Kenneth Calman then states: "We have a clear remit voted for by a large majority of MSPs. That is that we secure the position of Scotland within the United Kingdom.
Sorry but the remit is NOT from the Scottish Government! and should not be taken as a remit from the Scottish people. It’s a very strange statement to make, but considering he is receiving his instruction from Westminster, we shouldn’t be surprised.
63

Mikey,

26/04/2008 10:15:13
Alfred E Neumann - MAD as a hatter!

To all the ignorant unionists, why are you not getting on to your unionista MPs? After all, energy is 'reserved.'

64

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 10:16:04
#64 You think so?

The Electoral Commission
Trevelyan House
30 Great Peter Street
London SW1P 2HW
Email: vmarkos@electoralcommission.org.uk

UK Government body, based in London: defend Scottish interests - hilarious on one hand and a sad endightment of 'British' democracy on the other.


Its like -
The political Change For Tibet Commission,
Great Mao street.
Peking.

65

Edward,

26/04/2008 10:17:07
He states he is a passionate Scot that is happy to live in the United Kingdom. But then again there are many many more Scots, who are equally passionate about Independence, who are happy to live in Scotland, or any country for that matter. He is simply repeating the Labour mantra, that an Independent Scotland would somehow be isolated and there would be restrictions imposed for anyone wanting to visit family in England (strange how it doesn’t prevent families in Northern Ireland visiting family in the Republic and vice versa!
66

McX,

26/04/2008 10:18:57
Anyone noticed the online poll on the front page of the Hootsman?

"A year after coming to power, is Alex Salmond doing a good job as First Minister? "

Has been stuck at 59% YES 41% NO since last night.

I find it hard to believe there has been no variation in the past twelve hours....
67

John PM,

Edinburgh 26/04/2008 10:20:28
It was never going to fly that Westminster could openly take powers back, however as Wales have found out (when they rigged their electoral system to disallow candidates standing as both PR and FPTP) when an act is re-opened at Westminster, anything can happen to it.

I notice Mr Calman is already trying to copy the national conversation but I can't imagine anyone will involve themselves in this commission except die hard unionists because it has explicitly ruled out independence from the beginning.

It would be nice if this guy was independent but he isn't and once Brown gets his sticky fingers on the Scotland act I imagine he would be quite happy to change it to exclude rights over planning (to ensure nuclear power stations can be built), explicitly remove rights to introduce a local income tax and try and re-jig the electoral system so it is more biased towards Labour.

The one way to guarantee full powers for our parliament is to vote for independence. Whatever crumbs Mr Calman offers (the Lib Dems and Labour had already called for broadcasting powers in their original constitutional convention but this was rejected by the UK Government during the passage of the bill) they won't match up to the people living in Scotland, ruling Scotland.
68

Edward,

26/04/2008 10:21:14
"We will have our own website and we will go round the country and encourage groups to write to us with their observations"
NOT to be confused with the ORIGINAL http://www.constitutionalcommission.org/
69

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:22:22
66 European Scot-Morning ES! I was comparing the USA to the UK-not to Scotland. It is, I think, a good analogy and one which raises interesting questions on the nature of nationality and patriotism. I fully understand and respect your feelings re your Scottishness but I and many others have a pride in our Scottish roots and culture AND a sense of being British and feel that the two identities are perfectly compatible. The EU is MAYBE the way we shud be going but as i said before I can not drum up any heart for Brussels! But then again maybe we should be surpressing this patriotism thing and aim for a Earth identity free of the pains and dangers of love for country. Who was it that said that "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" forgot and merely curious-can u remember?
70

Cuthulan,

approx 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 10:30:17
SIR Kenneth Calman ,just in case you did not notice . The SNP are the biggest party in Scotland right now ,so how much taxpayers money did you waste coming up with this insight .DÓH?

#1 Alfred
Alfred E. Neuman has disgraced himself and Scotland once more.
#28 Suomi
Well said and I totally agree. If you are anywhere near Amsterdam I will meet you for a beer ;-) and I'll bring my Finnish friend.

A question to the unionist supporters on this sight.
Are you a Unionist for idealogical or economical reasons?
If for "economical reasons" then its has been shown to be b*ll*cks. Working in the Financial sector I can tell you I do not know 1 BA (business Analyst) that thinks Scotland would loose if it became independent. This has aslo been shown in the Herald's "Scotching the Myth" article.
If its for "idealogical reasons" please explain why most Unionists are ANTI European UNION? Surely if Scotland being aprt of the UK is giving us more clout on the world stage ,then if we join the EU we would have even more!?!? Your ideaology seems to be, give your soverigty to england but england will never give its soverignty to europe .It seems your are colonialists not unionists ,or Quisilings I would say.
If your unionist arguements are VALID ,you would be able to explain to the Dutch how stupid they are for not giving up thier soverignty to a German parliment ,or explain to Suomi and the Finnish why they should give up thier soverignty and join the Russian economy. See how far that boat floats mate ,I DARE YOU!!!!
Also explain why the Republic of Ireland is not trying to rejoin the UK? BTW Ireland,s GDP has just passed the UK's ,dispite AM2's prediction of Irelands economic ruin and the British economies strenght hahahahah. Also why are the Czech Republic and Slovakia not trying to rejoin thier economies?!?!!?

Also ,its a mute point be still a point. The declaration of Arbroath states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
"that the independence
71

Cuthulan,

approx 12,000 miles from Earth's core 26/04/2008 10:32:02

Also ,its a mute point be still a point. The declaration of Arbroath states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
"that the independence of Scotland was the prerogative of the Scots people, rather than the King of Scots"
The Act of Union was FORCED on us by bribes and threats of force to the The NOBLES not the PEOPLE
Robert Burns referred to this:

We were bought and sold for English Gold,
Sic a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.

Unionist supports where very much the minority.
Years later John Clerk of Penicuik, originally a leading Unionist, wrote in his memoirs that,

(Defoe) was a spy among us, but not known as such, otherwise the Mob of Edinburgh would pull him to pieces.

"spies, such as Daniel Defoe; his first reports were of vivid descriptions of violent demonstrations against the Union. "A Scots rabble is the worst of its kind," he reported, "for every Scot in favour there is 99 against".
Obvoiusly the PEOPLE did NOT agree with the Union!!!!

72

McX,

26/04/2008 10:39:36
#83 Ha ha, well done Mr Comma, Alfred is a Luton Scot, part of the Corby diaspora eh Alf...or is it Horsey?
73

Publius,

London 26/04/2008 10:43:27
Some absurd posts this morning. Examples:
#76 David McVicar compares Scotland in the UK to Tibet in China.
#74 Red Etin recites a nursery rhyme which threatens death to an Englishman.
#72 Edward nipicks at Calman and his commission. Edward well knows Calman (or anyone else) is free to say whatever he likes about about constitutions etc. By Edward's Alex Salmond is prejudging his own national conversation by coming out in favour of independence before he has heard the responses.
#60 David McVicar goes into an absurd rant against the UK government for asking Calman to look at a constitutional issue and makes some ludicrous statements about religion and education. [Incidentally David there are more Presbyterians than Anglicans in the cabinet, more Catholics than Anglicans and more atheists than Anglicans. Not that it matters except perhaps to you.)
#55 Rules etc writes of gene pools. A person's remote ancestry has nothing to do with his/her sense of national identity.
#23 McX introduces class war into the argument, apparently dismissing Calman because he is an educated academic with little understanding of manual workers. Apart from the fact that Calman headed up the Scottish and then the English NHS, which should have given him a very good understanding of the life chances of poorer people, not even McX could expect someone who is not educated to be appointed to this job.
# 31 Talorthane thinks the Calman review may breach the Human Rights Act. I hope that Talorthane is not as stupid as he/she seems.

Give up folks. It's the weekend. Go outside and enjoy yourselves. And stop writing cr.p.
74

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:48:56
84 Cuthulan-why are u Unionists-for economic or idealogicall reasons-in my case neither! For me it is a heart thing. Just a few points as well-you say Irelands GDP has just overtaken that of the UK(SCOTLAND INCLUDED)!!! If thats true then I will send yous a picture of me eating my hat!! Your analogy about Holland giving up their sovereignty to the German Parliament-this is a selective example. There are examples to support Unionism elsewhere-a notable and relatively recent one being Germany- Bavaria and Prussia DID give up sovereignty to the German Parliament! The constituent nations of the EU HAVE given up some sovereignty to the Euro Union.
Also most Unionists are NOT anti EU-where did u get that one from. All the major Unionist parties are on balance, pro EU.
75

Geoff,

sa 26/04/2008 10:51:56
89 Publius-nice one !
76

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 10:54:27
90. Geoff - get munching - Ireland's GDP per head over-took the UK some years ago...Irelands GDP per head is >125% of OECD average, the UK is 100% of OECD average.

Picture please!

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/53/47/39653689.pdf
77

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 10:55:08
72 Edward,

I wish we could get more legal light on this subject from the press, not going to happen unless someone like Paul Huchinson looks at it.

WHat legal basis is this 'review' working under. English law, Scottish Law?

The UK government AKAIK has nor signed up to many elements of the Human rights legislation...though it has signed up to the European : Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities.

See pdf here: http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fco.gov.uk%2Fresources%2Fen%2Fpdf%2Fpdf17%2Ffco_ref_ts42-98_frameminority&ei=ePkSSICSJ4nWnQPdifWUAg&usg=AFQjCNFt3WR8kSaf3XSZBONnJJDkh7NlNQ&sig2=FNHOWPwU6FXaWCOT92EG2w

It is pretty vague and here it is a question of open and inclusive debate, not the silencing of an entire national 'minority':
However article 7 states:
The Parties shall ensure respect for the right of every person belonging to a national
minority to freedom of peaceful assembly, freedom of association, freedom of expression,
and freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

>>> Freedom of expression seems to have failed.


It is also interesting that unless the Review conducts it in such a way so as not to alienat Gealic speakers they could be in contravention.

This came into effect in 1998. It is mandatory that Scottish history is taught based on article 12:
ARTICLE 12
1. The Parties shall, where appropriate, take measures in the fields of education and
research to foster knowledge of the culture, history, language and religion of their national
minorities and of the majority.

Since Scottish history on the natioanl curriculum has only now been promised by the SNP, (it looks to this layman) , that the Labour / LIB DEM executive were clearly in contravention.

Read up on it folks!
78

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 10:56:32
90. We await your hat eating picture eagerly Geoff!

Ireland leads world for quality of life | World news | The GuardianIreland's GDP per person - a standard, comparative economic measure - overtook the UK's GDP several years ago: Ireland's is now $36790 (£19800) compared to ...
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/nov/18/population.ireland - 58k -
79

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 26/04/2008 10:56:47
#85

Robert Burns approved of the Union, even if he made a poetical point about about the way it came about. Still, a majority of eligible Scots supported it then - and still do now!
80

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 11:02:41
More human rights violations by Labour in Scotland:
Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic,
Religious and Linguistic Minorities
Adopted by General Assembly resolution 47/135 of 18 December 1992

Article 4
4. States should, where appropriate, take measures in the field of education, in order to encourage knowledge of the history, traditions, language and culture of the minorities existing within their territory. Persons belonging to minorities should have adequate opportunities to gain knowledge of the society as a whole.

Pretty ambiguous though......

One thing is certain, at diplomatic levels the Council of Europe is keeping a close eye on undemocratic practices in the UK.
81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/04/2008 11:05:04
90. Come now Geoff - where we can we view your hat eating photo gallery?

"Ireland's GDP per person - a standard, comparative economic measure - overtook the UK's GDP several years ago: Ireland's is now $36,790 (£19,800) compared to $31,150 in the UK."

"Ireland is easily the best country in the world to inhabit, according to a quality of life survey which relegates the United Kingdom to a second-division ranking. The index of 111 states, produced by the Economist Intelligence Unit and released yesterday, combines data on incomes, health, unemployment, climate, political stability, job security, gender equality as well as what the magazine calls "freedom, family and community life".

Displayed on a notional scale of one to 10, rain-washed Ireland emerges with a gleaming top score of 8.33, well ahead of second-place Switzerland which manages 8.07. The UK languishes in 29th place on 6.92, narrowly in front of South Korea (6.88)
82

David MacVicar,

web 26/04/2008 11:14:05
Publius, London,

It may have been beyond you but I was using the catholic schools exa