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SNP demands power to cut voting age to 16



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Published Date: 13 June 2008
YOU can go to war for your country, legally have sex, get married or be held responsible for a crime.
Now the Scottish Government has called for the voting age to be lowered to 16 and demanded the powers from Westminster to implement the change in Scotland.

It had previously been suggested that by giving Scotland's 131,000 16- and 17-year-olds th
e franchise, the SNP would pick up more votes than the other parties, which could swing results in key council and Holyrood seats.

But the call by Bruce Crawford, the SNP minister for parliament, at a meeting of the Electoral Reform Society yesterday, was also seen as an attempt to highlight divisions between Westminster and Holyrood.

At Westminster, lowering the voting age is far down the political agenda, even though Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, has given it his personal backing. Mr Crawford has now made it a priority at Holyrood.

To emphasise the SNP's commitment to giving the franchise to teenagers, he also promised a bill bringing forward direct elections to health boards in Scotland, which would include votes of 16-year-olds upwards.

If, as the SNP want, Holyrood is given complete control over elections in Scotland both for the parliament and councils, then the Scottish Government would probably be able to push through a younger voting age.

Mr Crawford said: "It is the responsibility of us all to get young people interested in the democratic process.

"While 16-year-olds can pay taxes, get married or serve in the armed forces, they effectively have to bite their lip when it comes to decisions that will affect them."

He added: "As with so much of Scotland's electoral legislation, reducing the voting age is a matter reserved to Westminster. I can see no good reason why the voting age for elections in Scotland should not be decided in Scotland by our own democratically elected parliament, representing the people of Scotland."

The move was welcomed by the Liberal Democrats and the Electoral Reform Society (ERS), both of whom have been campaigning for a considerable time to lower the voting age.

Amy Rodger, the ERS Scotland director, said: "Just as Scotland has shown the way by introducing STV (single transferable votes] for its local elections, we are delighted the Scottish Government is now also taking the lead on this issue."

But Labour and the Tories, who in the end are likely to decide in Westminster whether to lower the voting age, were far more cautious in their approach to the issue.

A Scottish Labour spokesman said: "Labour has examined the merits of lowering the voting age to 16. Any change is best dealt with across all elections rather than a piecemeal approach."

David McLetchie, for the Tories, said: "Austria is the only European country which has a nationwide voting age below 18. Of the few other countries in the world that do, the likes of Iran, Sudan, Cuba and North Korea are hardly paragons of democratic virtue."

'We've a right to have our opinions heard'

KATIE STEWART


AS A 16-year-old, I welcome this campaign for a change in the voting age, because I believe that many 16 and 17-year-olds are as interested in the decisions made – decisions that will affect them – as most over 18s. At 16, you are considered an adult in many ways – you can leave school, work full-time, get married, start a family. Not being able to have a say in the decisions that will affect your life becomes ludicrous in the face of all that.

The power to decide the age to vote in the elections to the Scottish Parliament and to Westminster, is a reserved power, held by Westminster. But why should the age to vote in elections in our own country be a reserved matter?

Shouldn't this issue be given into the hands of the Scottish Parliament, to do with as they see fit? And why is Westminster so reluctant to allow under 18s to vote? Young people are as interested and as eager to take part in the process of government as people over 18, and we have a right for our voices and opinions to be heard.

Yes, there are 16- and 17-year-olds that are completely uninterested and probably wouldn't even use the vote – but there are many adults who don't vote and don't care about what goes on in the government.

Young people should not be denied the vote because some, maybe even the majority of them, wouldn't use it.



The full article contains 767 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 13 June 2008 12:08 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 00:09:41
"It had previously been suggested that by giving Scotland's 131,000 16- and 17-year-olds the franchise, the SNP would pick up more votes than the other parties, which could swing results in key council and Holyrood seats."

And, in a nutshell, we have the SNP's primary motivation for this.
2

Nikostratos,

13/06/2008 00:28:58
They should raise the voting age to 97 under that people are just not mature enough to be trusted to vote.
3

David MacVicar,

Location:Scottish News Blackout on negative Union 13/06/2008 00:31:13
From my post on the Herald:

Context:While I am a supporter of the SNP I am not a member.

This is obviously a move for political gain for the SNP. Why? Studies have shown that teenagers support independence more than other demographics.

So there is clear advantage to the SNP in pushing the lower age limit. No surprise there.

However...SNP aside

16 is the age that we generally can go to work and pay taxes. I am a firm believer of no taxation without representation. Therefore I back this SNP policy but ONLY because it fits with my democratic beliefs and not because of SNP advantage.

An added bonus just the same ;).

Meanwhile......Back in Brit deception central:
Westminster will certainly oppose such democratic tendencies tooth and nail. As will the Scottish cringe and England based forum posters fighting to justify continued Scottish subvention. How sad.
4

,

13/06/2008 00:35:25
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

,

13/06/2008 00:37:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
6

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 13/06/2008 00:38:02
The points proposed for reducing the voting age to 16 omits the most important and most relevant and that is that from the age of 16 citizens in the UK receive a National Insurance number and if they work and their rate of pay reaches the appropriate thresholds they are subject to tax. If the Government and the law can demand taxation from them as individuals, they are fundamentally entitled to a say in how that taxation is spent.

Britain lost its first and richest colony on this very principle. If the raison d'etre of the mightiest power in the world, the United States of America was founded on 'No taxation without representation.' , then 200 years later such principle remains unalterable.

Either 16 year olds are accorded the vote or those who have been subject to the taxation system should be refunded until they become 18 years old. Is our public revenues in such a desperate plight that we require the modest contributions of 16 and 17 year olds.

I am open minded on whether the voting age should be 16 or 18. What I am sure of is that the voting age and the taxation age should be the same.
7

Richard1,

13/06/2008 00:49:37
10,
What are you on about?,in the united states you can't even drink until you are 21.The amount of people who are banned from votong is USA,would be deemed against people's human right's in UK,EU.
8

Richard1,

13/06/2008 00:52:30
10.
I recently watched ABC news America,i was astonished to hear that a third party wanting to run against the DEMS/REPS was taken to court to stop them standing in one state,that's not democracy!
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 00:52:44

'GET LOST'! yer telling me you want the age of "voting" made at 16years and on the other hand you criticize them Purchasing Alcohol, and want the age limit put-up to 21years!

Some Cheek!
10

walter,

13/06/2008 00:55:31
While 16-year-olds can pay taxes, get married or serve in the armed forces, they effectively have to bite their lip when it comes to decisions that will affect them.

Then after these 16/17 year olds who have finished work, picked up their pay packet, checked the tax they have paid, went to the polling station, voted SNP (they hope), can they go to the pub and have a pint or will the SNP deny these 16/17 year olds they so much want to have a say in the democratic process the right to buy alcohol.
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 00:58:39

And Don't forget the,...'Cigarette's'!

But that's OK!

Vote for us,...'Suckers'!
12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 01:02:05

Yeh canny Puchase Booze!, Yeh canny Puchase Fags!

But you can Vote!

"VOTE" FOR WHAT,???
13

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 13/06/2008 01:04:16
Richard1 I do not know why you have made a comment. The fundamental principle that broke the American colonies away from Britain in the 1770s was that of 'No taxation without representation' What America is now, their question.
16 year olds are subject to taxation. They accordingly are entitled to representaion. It is one of the basic tenets of democracy. As for Walter's comment perhaps the voting age should remain at 18, in which case the national insurance and taxation age should be raised to 18 also.
14

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:05:02
The SNP are trying to do this to get hold of the young vote,when you are young you are that age when you rebel against authority.
15

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:07:53
18.
Your are talking rubbish,more USA citizens are denied the chance to vote than any other recognised democracy,or are you more informed than the UN on these matters?
16

somerferg,

perth 13/06/2008 01:15:16

Memo to Charlie - the critisism about buying alcohol is related to binge drinking which unless you live in a big castle and never venture out on to the streets of sunny Edinburgh is a huge issue in the capital as well as every other town in Scotland. Giving the vots to 16 year olds is a good idea no matter who they vote for. Unless of course you and the other tired old parties (tories, Numpties, Fib Dems) have something to fear??
17

Pat Scot,

13/06/2008 01:27:12
19 Richard1

Is that the same reason as the Lib Dems have for supporting the reduction in age.

It's their future, and I hope their idealism kicks a few @rses into dealing with matters important to them and their future.
18

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:28:49
22,use a coherant argument or shup up.
19

Pat Scot,

13/06/2008 01:30:04
19 Richard 1 and 23 me

and I wouldn't regard a SNP vote as a rebel gesture against authority - they are the authority, just now.
20

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:34:32
19,gonna start crying about oil now?
21

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:38:17
19,humour me with an answer if you SNP,your great leader say you have neen underacheiving in the UK for 40 year's,OK!!.Why do you claim to be not subsidised.If GER'S report is wrong underestimating you GDP then what is right? overacheiving or underacheiving?
22

Jock MacSprog,

13/06/2008 01:43:27
of course the Nats want this. Their superfical, emotive platform depends on their voters being morons, teenagers and teuchters.
23

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 13/06/2008 01:45:31
#11 Right on

Our citizenry can't drink until 21 because that's the condition the Feds required before it would release highway (Motorway - your English) maintenance construction funds to the States.

Sixteen Year Olds can't vote here because it would require a constitutional amendment, meaning 2/3 State Legislatures must approve. Why won't it happen? Because here our teenagers (myself included though I was last one 10 years ago) can't vote for prom queen in good conscience.

My personal view, teenagers pay taxes when they work, but here they need adult and/or school permission before a permit is issued. I consider it provisional adulthood - let them get some experience seeing how the government screws us before they get to experience voting for the jerks. That way they'll understand why they picked liberal, conservative or moderate in their ideology.
24

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:49:52
29,well done mate,but don,t expect the SNP to let something at supertficial as fact's get in the way.
25

Richard1,

13/06/2008 01:53:14
Salmond, wants to go into school's with a dvd of braveheart under his arm,and a voting slip in the other.
26

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 13/06/2008 02:49:28
Responsibility is growing up, and as Captn Gustav Ericson said, "You should start young.". 16 years are unlikely to have much understanding of why Scotand is the state its in, but neither do most adults. An army marches on its stomach (do you want to do this in Afghanistan?) but how is it funded? and did Scots go from players in an imperial stunt to living in the gimmick laden UK gimcrack economy. Why did they not talk the first faltering steps to Independence like irish, norwegians, kiwis etc?

[You may yawn if you've heard this before]

In the fishing biz., 16 year olds would take their watch and be entirely responsible for the ship and those aboard. At least you'd know that lawyer-capitalism was as great a threat to your survival as the sea!

Without ever being trusted with genuine reponsibility (when capable of some) youth will naturally overdose on booze, drugs, sex, cars. As we see. And we can't all be merchant bankers and financiers?

27

Richard1,

13/06/2008 03:16:42
32,I understand what you are saying,16 in my opinion is too young to decide thing's on the future of an entire country,a list of thing's i didn't know when i was 16,most adult's don't know a lot of these things either.
1)UK HAS THE SECOND LARGEST DEFENCE BUDGET.
2)UK IS THE #2 ONLY BEHIND THE USA IN SERVICE'S
3)UK IS THE FIFTH LARGEST MANUFACTURER IN THE WORLD
4)MORE REVENUE IS RAISED FROM PETROL TAX,THAN THE NORTH-SEA-OIL ITSELF.
5)OVER 90% OF ALL SCOTTISH IMPORT'S GO TO ENGLAND.
6)IRELAND HAS TO IMPORT 40% OF ALL IT'S IMPORT'S FROM UK,AS IT IS TO SMALL TO MAKE WHAT IT NEEDS.
7)UK HAS CONTRIBUTED TO FROM 1973-2004 £276BN,IRELAND HAS CONTRIBUTED NOTHING.
8)UK IS THE LARGEST TRADE PARTNER OF THE ENTIRE EUROZONE.

with all the will in the world,i don't think 16 year old's have the nouse to decide fundamental things like voting.
28

Richard1,

13/06/2008 03:21:37
SORRY,I SHOULD HAVE SAID EU FUNDING 1973-2004

UK)£276 BN
ROI)0
29

Richard1,

13/06/2008 03:27:36
I have spoke to people,adult's who think the uk for instance dosn't make anything,sell anthing,no manufacturing.

TRADE FIGURE'S JUNE 13 2008 FOR APRIL 2008

UK SERVICES EXPORTS'£12 BILLION
UK GOOD'S EXPORT'S £20.8 BILLION

THAT'S NOT BAD FOR A COUNTRY THAT IS DOING RUBBISH,AND SNP SAY IS FINISHED.
30

John Gilmore,

Montreal 13/06/2008 03:39:49
Good idea.....but will the Scottish Nutter Party also
lower the drinking, smoking and now sunbed age to 16?

Time was when you could get married in Scotland at 14 .. or was it younger?
31

Royster,

13/06/2008 03:41:24
Voting should be for adults. If you become an adult at 16 fine. Everyone pays tax when they buy something - even 3-year-olds. It's called VAT. Should 3-year-olds get the vote?
32

!Ya basta!,

13/06/2008 03:41:43
Nobody should be going to war or even getting married at 16 so its hardly a good comparison. The vast majority of 16 year olds do not have enough undertsanding of the system to make a judgement and will probabaly vote the same way as their parents. 16 and 17 year olds are still children, albeit mature ones. Let's be sensible and keep it at 18.
33

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 13/06/2008 03:45:47
It appears that the SNP hardly needs the new voters to win over the rest.

I know that this is just another partial poll,
but as each poll has the same general result,
the trend line cannot be ignored.

Populus poll for the Sunday Times
Survey taken June 6th to 8th 2008
Westminster Parliament, Scottish Results
(Seat allocation according to Electoral Calculus)


SNP 36% (38)
Cons 22% (5)
Labour [22% (8)
LibDem 16% (8)


The 22% popular vote and eight projected seats is the lowest result for Labour in many generations. Tied in popular vote with the hated Tories and in seats with the incompetent LibDems, how low the mighty have fallen.
34

Richard1,

13/06/2008 04:14:57
39,but that does not mean they would vote that way in a referendum.Like i said over 90% of all Scottish import's go to England,UK and Scot's small businesses employ around 88% of all employed persons.London alone import's £120 billion from the rest of the UK each year.England can get what is buy's from Scotland much cheaper abroad,say E.Europe what would happen to Scotland then,and the workforce,England in return with the way of trade will get E,Europe to buy more goods/services in return,England gains twice.Scotland is not like former Jugoslavia,Chech Rep,etc.Scotland is dependant on a trade realaionship with a land locked big brother,a trade relationship going back centuries.
35

Royster,

13/06/2008 04:54:40
It would be a form of child abuse. Young people need to be protected from politicians.
36

,

13/06/2008 05:05:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
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37

,

13/06/2008 05:05:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
38

Richard1,

13/06/2008 05:16:30
I think you have posted on the wrong article,shouldn't that be on the bbc story?anyway i'm at work,tired and it's early we all make mistakes.

For the record if England is Conservative,Scotland is socialist,and BBC is Lib,socilaist,left wing,England is certainly not gaining anything from the BBC.more SNP proganda about the nasty English.
39

Beth Boyle,

NY 13/06/2008 05:40:03
I can't believe this, its really insane. I have lost all respect for the SNP.
40

Richard1,

13/06/2008 06:01:34
Dear old alex,is getting desperate,i work for a national statistics company,private but with some government contracts.A Petroleum report in 2007,by the actual Oil Multinationals themselves predict a huge fall in North Sea Oil output.they even give the year 2015,20% off current levels.
41

Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 06:39:42
Richard

Are you really AM2/British Pride/Highland Idiot/Head Window Licker???

You talk the same statistical drivel, repeating yourself over and over again.

It's quite sad really but there will always be a bed for you in Carstairs.
42

Charley,

Dubai 13/06/2008 06:52:28
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5121552.stm

Aye, you can certainly die for your country....this makes me so angry. At least all these gentleman could vote! 100+ for what? Please, can someone explain?
43

Richard1,

13/06/2008 06:53:11
47,do you want to elaberate on the'statistical drivel,ask away i will provide proof.make it quick i clock off in 19 mins.
44

Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 07:02:43

#49 Richard1,

Postings #33,35,40 & 46. Like they were written by AM2!!

Your post #46 is utter drivel.

But you already know that don't you?
45

Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 07:04:57
#46 Richard

Do you work nightshift, cleaning the statistical company's offices???

Remember and clock off or you won't get paid!!
46

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 13/06/2008 07:22:17
Male brains are not fully wired up until around the age of 23. Has no one noticed how stupidly so many young men behave?

Really, the age of marriage, driving, voting, etc should, for males, be delayed until maturity.

Females mature sooner (around 18).

Those of uncertain gender orientation never mature at all (in my observations).
47

W Smith,

Middle East 13/06/2008 07:53:50
Is Salmond suggesting the younger, dumber, inexperienced and immature are more likely to vote SNP?

He could be right!

Who else would trust Kenny MacAskill with law and order?
48

Jimmy the Pie,

13/06/2008 08:03:51
#56

So all the graduates,older, experienced mature voters are going to vote for Red Wendy, Lard Foolkes and our favourite harridan, Maggie Curren???

Care for a bet???
49

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 08:39:58
47 Jimmy the pie
Why do you dismiss claims that North sea oil production is falling markedly as "drivel" This is an accepted and acknowledged fact. Production peaked in 1999 at 2.9 milllion barells per day and is now at less than half of that level. Check the RBS monthly oil index and BERR info. for yourself. They both confirm this. The latest RBS statement (April) desribed an annual decline in production of 15%. If this is compounded over 8 years (2007-2015)you do get to a situation of production being between only 20 and 30% of its current level.
Please check facts bfore you seek to abuse and insult other contributors and question their mental health.
50

Boy Wonder,

13/06/2008 08:50:55
I think age 16 is quite enough for the age of majority for everything, whether it be marrying, driving, work, drinking, smoking, sex, fighting and of course, voting.

51

Lothian Unionist,

13/06/2008 08:56:09
Another political trick by the master himself, be rest assured Salmond, and any other politician, are not in politics to help you and I. It's self preservation and ego, if polls would show an overwhelming majority of 16-18 year olds voting against the SNP, we wouldn't be hearing about it.

And anyway, what 16 year old is interested in politics? Surely he should be enjoying life instead of acting like a little berk!
52

Upbeat,

13/06/2008 09:06:04
If this is the only way the SNP thinks they can get a majority of course they will push for it.

At 16 most young people could not list 10 of the top twelve UK cities in terms of population, they could not name four of the country's largest ports, they would not be able to mark the location of Sellafield, Torness , Dungeness and Hunterston accurately on a map. They would not be able to list the first ten members of the EU or mark the location of each of these countries on a map.

To say that at 16 the average young British person is equipped to vote intelligently is simply not borne out by the facts. At 16 a person is not as knowledgeable or familiar with the ways of the world as they will be at 18. Despite having the "right" to get married, join the armed forces in a Junior capacity, or leave school, it is not until they are older that the majority can care for themselves, and manage their own affairs without assistance from others, or begin to understand their adult responsibilities.

Could it be that the SNP consider that at 16 the average person is more open to suggestion from their olders ?

Point made I think .
53

Alan B,

13/06/2008 09:32:40
This is a good idea.

One thing i think most people are not taking into account is the age of voting in a general election is not really 18. It is 18 or over at the point of that election.

As such when i was first allowed to vote I was 22. This was made worse by the fact that Major ran a 5yr term at the time.

One problem is young people not voting. Part of that could be do with lack of knowledge about how to vote. If you can only vote after u have left the family home u do not have ur parents to tell u how to vote.

This follows one of my main gribes and that is how difficult it is to vote in the uk for a number of reasons. Much of that is do with some problem with most elections and how to deal with the administrative problems that always seem to happen round our elections. (The sp one the first to get a big media circus round the mess.)

Have an educational campaign round voting would be useful. How do u make sure u are registered. What happens if u move home shortly before an election. What happens if ur polling card does not arrive. Where is ur polling station if ur polling card does not arrive. What can u do if ur postal vote does not arrive on time.

There are other related problems like what can u do if u have to work late at short notice. Go away on business at short notice. Our whole election procedure is more for those that have a settled place to stay and do not move regularly and have jobs that do not involve anything irregular ie working away from home, going to business meetings not in ur area. etc.
54

Joe,

Livingston 13/06/2008 09:39:45
Given the number of 'adult' SNP supporters who plague these forums, the voting age should be upped to 60+. Preferable restricted to those who have no interest in football...
55

Alan B,

13/06/2008 09:41:11
#Upbeat

I do not think having knowledge of a map is particularly relevent. U could easily argue that people at that age would have a much more informed view of the education system one of the main areas of political policy.

In many ways as people get older they more cynical and some start to think it does matter which party get in they are all the same. ie the tories and labour are just as bad as each other type of thing.

If u take in election 4 of most important issues:
-economy
-education
-health
-transport

Most of the population are clueless with regards the economy.

And i cannot see young people that bother to vote being ignorant particulary about the other 3. In some ways they maybe use public transport more not have cars.

On matters of environment and even energy policy they are as likely to have a meaningful opinion as anyone else.

What u may see is many voting the way their parents do. But that is an issue in scotland we have seen with much older people. The sheep effect that makes people in scotland vote labour.

In many ways in the sp with more choice that could be less of a factor. A better democratic system would mean most people should not be loyal to any party but vote on the quality of the party and their policies at that time.
56

Tweedmouth,

Coldstream 13/06/2008 09:49:52
#10 - How many 16 year old do you know who work and pay taxes?

Registered electors vote on matters that involve spending the £600 billion or so collected from taxation in the UK annually.
If you allow children to vote - and a 16 year old is still technically 'a child', you are saying : well you don't contribute to taxation but you can vote on how taxes are dispensed.

The American Revolution slogan was "No taxation without representation".

The British one should be: " no voting on the giving away of public money until you yourself are a taxpayer".
57

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 13/06/2008 09:53:33
16 - 17 year olds would tend to vote like their parents at that age. They are only just begining to be politically aware. The taxation system deems a 16 year old to be an adult and the right to vote should fall in line with that. The age when particular laws apply is not relevant.

Smoking or drinking ages are not relevant. Just as the age when folk get bus passes.

No taxation without representation must be the guiding principle. As for VAT paid by 3 year olds. That is a red herring. The parent is paying the VAT when the child receives the 50p to buy a Mars bar.

If 18 is deemed adulthood and the age for voting then the taxation system for income tax and national insurance should be raised to 18. any income a 16 -17 year old receives should be considered part of learning. I doubt the amount lost to the revenue would be much. If it is considerable then they have a right to determine how it is spent by parliament.
58

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 09:56:54
Would it not be rather bizarre to have laws which state that a 16/17 year old is not considered responsible enough to buy bottle of beer but is considered resonsible enough to decide the future of the country?
59

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 10:00:04
63. There are no adult SNP voters in these forums (except the ex-pat nats who don't count as they don't live here).

The SNP are after giving these 'Braveheart Neds' the vote which is just plain scary.
60

Upbeat,

13/06/2008 10:02:11
64 Alan B.

The attempt I set out in #61 was to indicate how little about their country the average 16 year old actually understands. The specifics i.e. geographical facts, are not the point. If you can show me a group of 10 16 year olds who can name five recent prime ministers, can name theplace in Northern France where the British army suffered its biggest single day loss of life, can correctly tell what the prevailing rate of VAT is, know the name of the second European city where the EU parliament also meets once a month. Can indicate what the lower Income tax threshold might be to the nearest £100, can outline what the speaker's role is in the House of commons should be , and can also say what the currencies of France Switzerland Denmark, Sweden, and Norway are. Then viwing the outcome of this new test we might be getting the point across. The fact is that at 16 the average person is not aware enough to be able to make an informed decision about most Political matters. Let alone be wise enough to understand the significance of casting their vote intelligently.
61

Publius,

London 13/06/2008 10:03:18
#57 Ugly George

It's worse than that. At 16 you can buy contraceptives and have sex, but you can't buy cigarettes and have a smoke afterwards!
62

Highland Mighty,

SNP: Spreading lies and hatred since 1934. 13/06/2008 10:04:03
How about giving people on large incomes extra votes in recognition of their much higher taxes?

How about giving the elderly more votes in recognition of their life-long contribution to society?

How about banning ex-pats from the vote as they pay zero/very little taxes and don't even live here?
63

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 10:05:37
69. Such a reasoned and obvious argument has no place on this forum.
64

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 10:14:26
64 Alan B
I might appear to be contradicting my ealier point but have to ask what proportion of over 18s would get all of these questions right?
65

Alonso,

Aberdeen 13/06/2008 10:19:17
#69 - I would be very very surprised if the majority of those over 18 could answer correctly to those questions. To test it out, I've just asked a 36 yr old colleague with a PhD in Psychology and she couldn't answer all the questions and struggled with most. I don't think that between the ages of 16 and 18 there is a magical transition which gives you these answers.

#67 - Having worked in pubs and restaurants in the past, it is my experience that there are plenty of people over 18 right up to retirement age who are not responsible to buy a drink. Yet, they can still vote.

66

brownlie,

13/06/2008 10:19:23
72 Highland

A see a tiny flaw in your postings. If only sensible people are allowed to vote who is going to vote for our glorious unionist agenda?

It would mean that the Calman Commission would have to resign en masse.
67

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 10:23:53
70 Publius
Good point.

On a point of clarification - if a man pays a woman for sex, infects her with HIV and has a smoke afterwards, is it true that his only offence is to smoke in the place of somebody's employment?
68

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 10:31:09
64 Alan B / 69 Upbeat
Ooops sorry - made an error. My post (#73) was intended for 69 Upbeat not for 64 Alan B
69

bluehead,

edinburgh 13/06/2008 10:34:22
I hope this is not a sign of desperation the simple reason is that at that age, part of a young persons's brain is still not working.
a person must have some experience of life to spot all the bums ,chancers and wasters that inhabit the political world, youg people should concentrate on enjoying life
politicians stink out every thing they go near,
you have only to look at this present goverment to see
how much a country can be destroyed
70

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 13/06/2008 10:37:39
The real questions should be. What's the point? What can a politician give a 16 year old that a bottle of buckfast Abbey Wine Cannot? How will they get to the polling station without a driving license? What's their motivation as they don't get broo money? And why isn't Eminem on the list?
71

Publius,

London 13/06/2008 10:39:19
#76 Ugly George

Could be you're right. One good thing about the anti-smoking laws is that they've generated a new form of people's architecture at pubs - outdoor smoking areas. They are getting more and more elaborate with roofs, walls on three sides and patio heaters. Before long there will be annual awards for smoking areas!

P.S. I don't smoke, but I like to show solidarity with persecuted minorities, like white, male, middle smokers.
72

Kirsty Boyd-Williamson,

New Town 13/06/2008 10:51:52
No.71: Highland Mighty >
How about giving people on large incomes extra votes in recognition of their much higher taxes?

This is precisely what I have argued for over many years. It is the only way to halt the unhealthy political influence of frightful clerks, gentlemen's hairdressers and plasterers, most of whom are simply to feckless to exercise their vote in a responsible manner.
73

Arfur,

13/06/2008 10:55:05
I am 100% behind this. I remember when I was 17 and wanted to vote but couldn't. And at that time I would have voted Labour. So this is nothing to do with whether SNP would get more votes or not.

I dont think anybody really knows who the youngsters would vote for even with AM2/Highland Blighty/something Pride/Richard1(thats a new one) numbers (honest they are not picked out of my nose).

#2 Highland Mighty - "And, in a nutshell, we have the SNP's primary motivation for this" actually that statement in your post, in a nutshell, is to be anti SNP as per usual.

#52 AM2 - "Spook knows I’m not Highland Mighty but continues making the claim, presumably for effect" - complete bull. Someone even posted one of your slips yesterday where you admitted being Highland.

Maybe the should make it mental age tho instead of actual age. That would rule AM2/Highland Blighty and Kimba instantly from voting.
74

Mike555,

13/06/2008 11:00:58
Another wonderful wheeze thought up by lazy people sitting in plush offices with nothing much to do.

Give newborn babies the vote and be done with it!!
75

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 11:05:47
80 Publius
Yes I have noticed the same about smoking areas outside pubs but it is probably only a matter of time before pressure from fundamentalist environmentalists leads to the banning of patio heaters.
76

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 11:13:33
82. You are an idiot or a liar.

However, you are a nat so tell us something we don't already know.
77

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 11:16:11
75. Still thinking this fake-unionist username is clever/funny/interesting/fooling anyone/original?

Our 'nationalist fringe', ladies and germs!
78

thinking,

Scotland 13/06/2008 11:22:51
With so many teenage marriages ending in disaster 16 is too young for marriage and too young for many other responsibilities. It is a learning time to gain experience which will help in making decisions that have such huge consequences.
If we seriously (and honestly)look back to our teenage years we will usually find that our beliefs have now changed according to our greater understanding which has come from experience.
We have enough of a problem now with many politicians who have never really experienced the outside world, having gone straight from education to the political!! life.
79

brownlie,

13/06/2008 11:25:26
85 Highland

Quite right, anyone who does not agree with our politics must be either one or the other!!

Any word of Alfred E.?
80

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 11:25:44
86. Highland - you posted above that the SNP were backing this for self-interest as young people were more likely to vote SNP.

AM2 has posted poll data which suggests the reverse, and politicians from all parties also back such a move.

Why do you always make yourself look like a total pillock?
81

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 11:32:58
89. Why do you always post insults instead of any hint of reasoned argument?

Is there ever going to be a point to your posts?

Anyway, you go right ahead and believe Salmond and his followers when they say it is about giving teenagers who pay taxes/can be military junior soldiers the vote and NOT about getting more nationalist support.
82

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 13/06/2008 11:33:47
"YOU can go to war for your country, legally have sex, get married or be held responsible for a crime." [at age 16]

But you can't buy alcohol, buy tobacco, drive a car or ride a motorbike.

If they want people to be able to vote at 16 (which is a rediculous idea anyway) then why are they not allowed to buy drink? Why did they recently introduce the brain-dead law about not being bale to buy tobacco under 16? Why are they not pressing for changes to allow driving at an earlier age?

This is just complete madness.
83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 11:37:25
90. Highland - i refer you to your post at #85 where you call all Nats "idiots or liars" and then to your post #90 where you decry "insults" and must ask you again, why do you always make yourself look like a ludicrous, posturing, cretinous, hypocritical pillock?
84

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 11:39:21
90. Are you saying that AM2 was lying with his election data that showed less support for the SNP in the younger age group? And can you explain why Liberal, Tory and Labour politicians who back such a move are doing so, if such a move can only be about boosting SNP support? Or are your knee-jerk and predicatble little rants just the usual pointless anti-SNP mentalist dribble we expect from you?
85

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 11:42:42
91. You can't go to war for your country at age 16. You must be at least 18.

92. No, stating that nats are liars/idiots/both is called a FACT. What you do is hurl abuse at anyone who disagrees with you or challenges your ridiculous claims. That's the difference.

Now, I'm bored with you so begone.
86

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 11:44:45
94.... and Highland goes forth to carry on his crusade for the Union....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeLSNzEorbI
87

kimba,

13/06/2008 11:46:10
Salmond will try to use every trick in the book to get re-elected,including using naive kids who haven't got the experience or knowledge to make a balanced judgement,hope gordy told them to get stuffed!
88

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 11:49:49
96. Kimba, how is your new diet going?
89

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 11:51:01
97. And yet another mature post of great relevance to the debate from Ayrshire Scot.

Outstanding.
90

brownlie,

13/06/2008 11:57:40
96 Kimba

Good morning, Kimba

You are quite right - we need sensible and knowledgeable people like your good self to vote for the union.

Gordon and David - long to reign over us!!
91

Highland Mighty,

13/06/2008 11:59:15
99. Bam. And the nats score another winner.

Fantastic.
92

 Ayrshire Scot™,

13/06/2008 12:00:36
98/ 94 - I thought you were bored with me? And yet you keep posting to me? Are you trying to make yourself look like a retarded cretin? As for high minded debate, everyone can read #85 and will just think you are a posturing idiotic plonker.
93

brownlie,

13/06/2008 12:02:25
100 Highland

What is "bam" - please explain this posting?
94

brownlie,

13/06/2008 12:07:25
86 Highland

I've just noticed this post as I did not think it referred to me.

Please explain how the user name "Brownlie" is "fake unionist".

At least I have the courage to use my own name and I only post as Brownlie.

I do not use any pseudo user-names.

Can you in all honestry say the same?
95

brownlie,

13/06/2008 12:08:02
103

"honesty"
96

ptdoug,

Isle of Man.... where 16 yearolds CAN vote. 13/06/2008 12:09:11
If the Government, UK or Scottish, sees fit to tax you.... then they should allow you to vote.

"No Taxation Without Representation" was the slogan of the settlers in America that eventualy rebelled, fought and won their War of Independence against their British colonial rulers in London.

If London says no to this proposal, as they are likely to do just to spike yet another SNP initiative... Scotland should resurect the "No Taxation Without Representation" campaign in support of our youngsters. This issue should be treated as the fundamental principle of democratic rights that it is.

The "Leith Teaparty" has a nice ring to it.

Lets start it now!

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION !!!

VOTING RIGHTS FOR 16 YEAROLDS NOW !!!


.... where's my darned musket... ;-)
97

kimba,

13/06/2008 12:09:59
AYRSHIRE/BROWNLIE. Please explain why salmond wants kids to get the vote,if not for his own ends,he knows full well that kids of that age are impressionable,he also knows without them he is stuffed!
As for my "diet" sorry to have to tell you this ayrshire,but at 5ft 7in and 10st 4lb my doc says i'm ok,so go boil yer heid pal!
98

 Ayrshire S