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Cross-Border fight for control of Scots seas



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Published Date: 04 April 2008
A NEW row broke out yesterday between Holyrood and Westminster over who controls Scotland's seas.
The UK government published proposed new laws on the marine environment, which include the establishment of conservation zones to protect species and habitats of national importance.

However, there are concerns such restrictions could create "no
-go zones" for off-shore renewable-energy developments, such as wind farms.

The Scottish Parliament controls conservation issues for only the first 12 nautical miles from the coastline – with the control of areas further offshore reserved to Westminster.

But Holyrood also dictates policy on renewable energy up to 200 miles out to sea – and 380 miles off the west coast – creating the potential for a stand-off on whether new developments should be prohibited on conservation grounds, or permitted to tackle climate change.

Following publication of the draft Marine Bill in London, the SNP called for control of all matters of up to 200 nautical miles to be transferred to Holyrood. The Scottish Government is planning its own marine bill and has established a sustainable seas taskforce to develop proposals.

Richard Lochhead, the environment secretary, called for ministerial discussions after the bill proposed that control of waters beyond 12 miles remained with Westminster.

Mr Lochhead said: "Anyone who cares about our precious marine environment will be delighted that governments north and south of the Border are preparing improved management of our seas.

"However, we are disappointed the UK government has (not accepted] the case for any new powers relating to devolved matters and offshore marine conservation measures to be part of the Scottish marine bill, rather than the UK's.

"Reclaiming control over Scotland's seas will help safeguard their future and the future of the coastal communities who depend on them. The UK bill does not take into account the distinctive marine environment of the seas around Scotland."

The UK bill aims to establish the conservation zones by 2012, once the sea has been "mapped" to highlight areas of importance. Differing levels of protection will be offered, with some forms of fishing, dredging and developments being banned across up to 20 per cent of UK waters.

It is hoped a committee set up by the UK government will work with the Scottish Government to identify conservation sites. However, the final decision will remain with Westminster.

The bill also proposes to allow public access to the English coastline – something that has been in place in Scotland since 2003. In addition, a new marine planning and licensing regime will be established.

Last night, Sally Bailey, North-east Atlantic marine manager at WWF, the environmental charity, said: "To secure robust protection of the UK's seas, it is essential a marine bill is passed in both Westminster and Scotland. Our marine environment needs to be managed as a single ecological unit."

Maria McCaffery, the chief executive of BWEA, the UK's leading wind, wave and tidal energy trade association, said the conservation zones should not prevent the development of the 5,000 to 6,000 wind turbines that it believes are needed to meet renewable-energy targets.

She added: "Britain's potential to develop offshore wind resources must be at the heart of the draft bill. It should promote sustainable development and that includes economic activity, such as offshore renewables."

THE UK'S POSITION

THE changes proposed by Westminster follow a long-standing need to replace confusing and outdated laws to fulfil a 2001 pledge from Tony Blair on marine conservation.

But with the UK's seas some of the busiest in the world, the bill proposes a UK-wide marine planning system and a marine management organisation to oversee all aspects of marine policy.

SCOTLAND'S POSITION

THE SNP-led Scottish Government wants to extended its power over the seas from 12 to 200 nautical miles from the coastline.

A taskforce set up to consider a new marine bill north of the Border will look to set guidelines on sustainable management of the seas and 6,800 miles of coast, balancing demands to harness wind power against the needs to protect natural heritage and significant wildlife species.

VITAL STEPS

THE Scotsman has launched a campaign to protect our precious marine life. We want:

• A network of marine reserves and protected areas to be created to safeguard sites properly.

• A system of marine planning, effectively zoning areas for appropriate use, to safeguard important fishing grounds from offshore wind farms and other projects.

• A single organisation to administer this system.

• Scotland to be given control of conservation to the 200-mile boundary with international waters.





The full article contains 766 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 April 2008 10:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Sea fishing industry
 
1

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 00:23:43
It is not a fight. good god scotsman stop your sun like rhetoric.

It is fair and reasonable we control our seas it is within our territory no need for a fight unless westminster sends an invasion force.

Too much harking back to 1306 for some Scotsman journalists.
2

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 00:27:51
Is this another simmillar stunt to the budget? E.G. SNP announces budget , Westminster reduces it by sly measure in a spanner in works fashion?

SNP announce yesterday to world applause environmental measure and reason not to have Nuclear power around our shore so Labour and westminster attempt a ruse to make it essential?

If it is a choice between a seal being killed by a rotor of a propleeler versuses a nuclear plant turning my children into freaks for generations to come when we don't need the power. I am affraid I am with humanity!
3

Resolutions,

04/04/2008 00:33:40
Seems this mess harks back to Scotland Act when Labour did not anticipate a different regime north and south of the Border.

Usual 'lie service' restored or revealed yet again.
4

walter,

04/04/2008 00:39:56
The SNP want control of all matters for 200 miles, I bet they do.
They may say it is for conservation reasons but what they really want is control over oil fields.
5

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/04/2008 01:01:10
WALTER....WHY NOT?
6

Conan the Librarian™,

04/04/2008 01:05:32
4
Well, they froze the council tax.What about that?
7

Senga Jean,

Scotland 04/04/2008 01:31:03
Wendy. Wendy. Wendy. Have you no control over the glistening Brown and Browne?
8

Socrates2,

04/04/2008 01:36:51
scots are not able to decide for themselves
westminster can better look after the seas
it makes more sense that way
ask any journalist
9

Highland Mighty,

04/04/2008 01:54:51
Hey, SNP picks fight with Westminster. Finally.

It's been hours since the last SNP hissy fit, we were beginning to wonder what Salmond was up to.

2. "SNP announce yesterday to world applause environmental measure..." P*ss-poor grammar asides, I missed that "world applause" so where is it?

Everyone knows that a wind turbine kicks out more energy than a nuclear power station so bring it on.
10

Highland Mighty,

04/04/2008 02:06:35
10. What is the tax income from oil nowadays? Let's have a figure for once.

Public accounts (available online if you want to check) show average annual tax income of only £4-6bn a year....not exactly a mega-bonus for the £550bn Westminster budget, is it.

How many times do we have to cover this?

How many times do we have to highlight the fundamental flaws in a 30 year old report written before any oil made it ashore?

How many times do we have to explain that to dismiss these public accounts is to say that every UK government, plus the EU, WTO, the UN, the multinational oil producers, the international oil markets, the international financial markets plus of course OPEC, are all in cahoots to suppress North Sea oil production figures.....purely to control the SNP?

They produce and monitor all North Sea oil accounts so any false reporting must involve them. Why can't the nats understand this?

Obviously the nats will AGAIN ignore such facts and will continue to peddle their ridiculous conspiracy theories.
11

Hen Mc Stoorie,

Port William 04/04/2008 02:16:06
HM..FO
12

,

04/04/2008 02:23:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

AJ Fife,

04/04/2008 02:24:54
Westminster are virtually declaring war on Scotland. Perhaps it's time for ALL Scots to stand up and be counted. Even staunch Unionists are disgusted by the latest UK govt bullyboy tactics!
14

The Pict.,

04/04/2008 03:46:43
# 4 Walter. And your point is ?????????
15

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 03:53:25
#9 - for our own good? lol. They annexed it as part of a super market sweep. Brown as chancellor and co sold out Scotland.

The continental shelf is the fith participant in the union and Gordon and co told us nought. Just let that one slide.

Simple.We were robbed and sold by our own countrymen!
16

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/04/2008 04:21:21
#17

Don't worry AJ, this strategy of constant fight picking will make them as unloved as the Tories. If they keep this up their will not be a single Labour MP from Scotland at the next Westminster election.

It will be interesting to see if the "Wendy Review" will chose this as one the new powers they want or want to give up.
17

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 04/04/2008 04:52:59
#13 High and Mighty

We have seen the same quoted figures from you on many occasions. I must congratulate you on your commitment to the enviroment by constantly recycling your posts.

There is however some figures that you omit either through misunderstanding or a desire to deceive. The 4-6 Billion Pound sum which you characterize as insignificant is 1000 pounds per person in Scotland. It is also only a measure of the royalties received on production. What you omit is that if Scotland where Independant that these Oil Companies would to pay tax on the corporate profits of their operations in Scotland.

Given that prodution costs are around $20.00 per barrel and that current market prices are $100.00 per barrel that translates in to profits of $80.00 per barrel. The Scottish share of production was 2.5 million barrels per day in 2007. That would mean profits of $73 Billion in 2007. At a 30% tax rate that would be $21 Billion in taxes or just over 10 Billion Pounds. Add that to your royalties and it works out to 3,000 Pounds for every man women and child in Scotland.
18

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/04/2008 05:22:10
Blah blah blah, SNP, blah blah blah, oil, blah blah blah, unionista, blah blah blah, Labour, blah blah blah, democractic right, blah blah blah.
19

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 05:25:13
Highland Mighty

We all have a laugh and a joke on these boards but you're acting like an attention seeking and ridiculous clown. The joke is over.Abuse doesn't work when thats all you spout. It would have more effect if you and the other trolls on all sides just participated in the debate instead of just being contrary or abussive for the sake of it.

Just spouting a line you know to be false and disengenuos only highlights everything people as individuals hate in the political machine. Whereby uusally grown up adults peddle lies and half truths and convince themselves of their justification. This is what rturned me o labour for example. The very fact i was listening to a party i had high hopes for and they were just talking rubbish and not giving a hoot. I would like to see genuine passion for the cause not some folk going boo yah and then all gettting together in the bar later. That's what interests most people in politics. Unfortunately the main people it has passed by is MPS on all parties. If you care enough about your constituents being shafted punch your oposite in the mouth. Protest or wear your hear your sleave about your cause. If you have ever listened to Mark steel going on about his question time experience where he layed into a tory. Afterwards the tory comes up and buys him a drink and says good show it's all a game!You landed a good un on me! Mark Steel was being bloody serious and passionate about what he said and could not believe he took it so lightly!

If you actually care about where you live or the party you support then interact , debate seriously and take something from it or add something to it. Perhaps even stand for your party of choice. But this bating is just sickening folk.

The good thing about Scottish politik at the momment is it has sturred passion in the publics belly. I only wish we could get some into the old boys club that reperesents us. Perhaps if they tolerated the conditions they impose on the average person we m
20

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 05:25:57
may get somwhere and actually acheive.
21

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 05:28:16
Alfred

read 23 - it applies to you even more also

Time for me to get a less clogged keyboard.
22

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/04/2008 05:31:37
25 RIP HON... blah blah blah

Blah blah blah, 1707, blah blah blah, butcher's apron, blah blah blah, journalism, blah blah blah reinactment, blah blah blah, fishing industry, blah blah blah.
23

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 05:43:47
#26 - You really are such a bairn. We all like a joke but you go on like that at all times. I seriously doubt for your sanity as a useful member of society.

You have added absolutley nothing to the debate over recent days other than stupidity at all times. Not one bit of sense or fully truthful fact has come from you.

Time to scroll past a troll.
24

langtonian,

scotus 04/04/2008 06:02:55
First Minister Alex Salmond, his Executive, need to be continualy reminded they only hold a balance of power by the skin of their proverbial teeth, ie-ONE

Alex Salmond is a "smart" poiltician,knows which side his bread is buttered on,inclusive to being "smart" is the on going propensity to be have a fist class cabability to "Cause a row in an empty hoose"

Combined with maliciouse intent and subterfuge,included in the purpose of which is a self inflicted, urgent,requierment to deflect attention away from a "doggy" emasculation of 22 coucil budgets, which have already required support from John Swinny's apparent nest egg,in an ongoing attempt to avoid a situation that occured to Jack the house builder,whereby when said house, collapsed around his "lugs",basicly due to the foundations being not fit for purpose.
25

R.I.P. HONEST BALANCED JOURNALISM,

04/04/2008 06:06:50
#28 pity is all I can muster. It is also easier to scroll past.

Such a waste of time and more worrying he/she obviously feels it is an important task??
26

Napoleon the cat,

04/04/2008 06:18:57
Given the current focus on Sovereign Wealth Funds (where a country puts the revenue from natural resources in the piggy bank instead of squandering it on tax cuts etc), and givent that Norway has one of the biggest such funds in the world; and also given that it is accepted that the UK government's priority will be UK plc and not Scotland (which is only natural, first law of survival etc), it makes absolute sense for Scotland to a) want to control the revenues from its now natural resources and b) expect to do so. Its not about politics its about being able to survive as a small country in the future. We can do it, we have the people to do it (they may not be in pariliament now in readers' opinion but there are an awful lot of clever jocks around), and with the right resources, we can set Scotland up to thrive and to look after its own for the future. So, given the above, and at the risk of askign a daft questions, What's wrong with us wanting/intending to manager our own territorial waters? Where's the argument?
27

!Ya basta!,

04/04/2008 06:54:48
Erm, lets get back to the subject.

The bill is about environmental conservation, and, as WWF rightly point out, the marine environment needs to be managed as a single ecological unit. This needs to be the core of the Bill, not development of offshore wind resources, an important consideration though they are.

It will take a while for the mapping to be completed, and scientific proposals to be developed, so most importantly that work must start now. Both Parliaments should then agree to the principle of science - based decision making.

In the meantime, which should be plenty, both Parliaments have a duty to work something out between them, it's what thye are paid for. No need to panic just yet.

The continuity of the environment demonstrates that whatever the politcal structures become, they are secondary to the fact that we are neighbours and have to find a way to accomodate each other. Politicians from both sides should work in this spirit.
28

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 06:59:59
You had better not allow free speech on the trial of the Jihadists dear Scotsman dear Scotsman.



29

Gregorf,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 07:00:50
Can we identify the Mosques where they studied their beliefs?
30

Russell M,

Stirling 04/04/2008 07:26:41
In the eyes of Westminster and the Unionists, Scotland came into the Union impoverished and they're going to make d...n sure we leave the same way.
31

Guga II,

Rockall 04/04/2008 07:28:23
I wonder if that thieving war criminal Maggie Broon has had a look at the latest Comres polls?
32

Jimmy the Pie,

04/04/2008 07:36:26
Where's AM2 with all his reams of useless statistics??
33

scottish person,

paisley 04/04/2008 07:51:15
Good old hootsmon, dont want any discussion on the fact that asians wanted to blow up 5 planes over the atlantic. I am surprised they didnt manage to blame the snp.
34

Nell,

The Preservation Hall 04/04/2008 07:51:41
No. 17:- You could argue the reverse, that the Scottish parliament is declaring war on Westminster. The UK bill seems to be to protect the environment. What is "bullyboy tactics" about that?
35

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 04/04/2008 07:55:28
This is a reasonable discussion, not a war of words. Good neighbours should try to harmonise interlocking activities. I guess the EC is the real determiner here, anyway.
36

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 07:57:13
#29

It is always entertaining to read your original attempts at mangling your master’s language.

Your curiously bombastic and pompous style of writing serves only as a smokescreen to hide your total lack of coherent thought or expression.

This is compounded by your obvious failure to understand any of the issues which you attempt to comment upon.

My mind boggles contemplating the connection between “doggy emasculation” and the budgets of 22 councils.

I am also intrigued as to the fate of the budgets of the other 10 councils, seemingly not afflicted by this canine surgery.

Perhaps the next time you care to refer to local government finance, you will at least now be aware of how many local authorities there are in Scotland?
37

brownlie,

glasgow 04/04/2008 08:13:51
29 Langtonian

Thank you for reminding the unionists who does hold the balance of power in Scotland.

The rest of your posting is as irrelevant as it is incomprehensible.
38

Venachar,

04/04/2008 08:28:43
Under international law nothing above 12 miles is recognised as territorial waters.
You have external to the 12 mile limit contigious zones and EEZ's, Exclusive Economic Zones out to 200miles from the nearest land, that includes Rockall.

This is cuurently controlled by Westminster.

The fishing industry in Scotland has been severly affected by Westminster policy and given that it is the aim of the current Scottish administration to improve Scotlands natural resources is it no wonder that the SNP wish to control this area.

I would rather the SNP took this one over, at least they are doing something for the people of Scotland with a majority on one. What did Labour do for the last umpteen years.
39

eric,

04/04/2008 08:32:21
Most of my family have already dumped labour the other half in England cant wait .These were staunch labour voters who i thought would never chnge ,They voted SNP and they are glad they did.
40

John S,

04/04/2008 09:13:00
#16 - I would also like to know the Scottish Labour Party view on this matter.
41

Alfred E. Neuman,

04/04/2008 09:15:25
Blah blah blah, unionist troll, blah blah blah, begone, blah blah blah, wendy is rubbish, blah blah blah, labour = union, blah blah blah anti-SNP = anti-scotland, blah blah blah, oil, blah blah blah, taxation, blah blah blah, i am so well informed, blah blah blah butcher's apron, blah blah blah immmigrants are good, blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah, undemocratic, blah blah blah, the will of the people, blah blah blah, that fact is incorrect, blah blah blah, because it is, blah blah blah, my mate down the pub said, blah blah blah, i can assure you, blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah, wide man of Europe, blah blah blah, nuclear, blah blah blah, taxation, blah blah blah, battle reinactmentent, blah blah blah, McConnell, blah blah blah.
42

David Ban,

04620 Vera Spain 04/04/2008 09:19:52
Without reference to the Scottish government far less the people, Westminster removed the the UK marine jurisdiction from Rockall. within minutes huge Russian trawlers appeared and in less than two years the breeding grounds for herring were wiped out.

The sooner Scotland can manage her own affairs the better.
43

Guga II,

Rockall 04/04/2008 09:21:04
I notice the Hootsmon, as well as limiting the stories we can comment upon today, have also avoided the story about Maggie Broon claiming for his groceries and his utility bills on his expenses.

Why is that? Is the Hootsmon so determined to protect their precious New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party that they are now burying stories about their progligacy?
44

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 09:21:26
The bizzare thing about this particular Scotsman story is that it leads with the usual sensationalised SNP picks fight tripe...

.... and then hidden in the very last paragraph acknowledges that the Scottish Government's position is exactly what the Scotsman is campaigning for!! We obviously can't win....

What's also bizarre is the usual knuckle scraping trolls haven't spotted this and are indulging in another day of vitriolic mudslinging...
45

brownlie,

glasgow 04/04/2008 09:26:27
46 Alfred

Are you Wendy's speech writer?

A few nights ago Brian Wilson was being interviewed by the well-vaselined Gordon Brewer over alternative energy sources. He was described by the gay Gordon as Ex Energy Minister and not in his present role as a Director of Amex Nuclear.

He stated that the optimum distance for wave power was around 60 miles off the coast of Scotland. A few days later the UK Government wish to control that area. I wonder why?
46

brownlie,

04/04/2008 09:27:24
51
Sorry should read Amec.
47

Miss H,

04/04/2008 09:35:34
13 Fine. Lets get these revenues repatriated to the Scottish Exchequer, along with full fiscal autonomy.
48

Miss H,

04/04/2008 09:37:35
50 It's actually not that bizarre - I can think of a few situations where they have supported the SNP position e.g. on prescription charges. But it doesn't stop them from writing negative pieces about the SNP Government.

Confusion reigns at Scotsman Towers!!
49

brownlie,

04/04/2008 09:40:57
48 AM2

spot on - It is extremely tedious to express concerns about the future direction of your country. Around 75% of Scotland appreciate how fortunate they are to be governed by Gordon Brown and his highly effective government.
50

MtnKat,

04/04/2008 09:41:53

"A NEW row broke out yesterday between Holyrood and Westminster"

No. The cowardly Westmonster wet nappies chose to raise their heads above the parapets when Eck is out of the country and lob another load of sh!te at Scotland.

I shake my head and sigh.
51

 Ayrshire Scot™,

04/04/2008 09:42:00
48. AM2, I find your positions confusing.

The Westminster Government propose new laws, and this is an SNP power-play? How did the SNP trick them into proposing these laws?

Now, the SNP want to extend Holyrood powers in this area, and over other areas - this is "picking fights" and power-playing. But the Uninionists have a commission to identify areas to extend Holyrood powers, and this is sensible and consensual development.

So, we can summarise your position - any SNP commentary or position on extension of devolved powers is fight picking, any Unionist commentary on same is sensible.
52

 Ayrshire Scot™,

04/04/2008 09:43:06
55. Brownlie - please remember that when Unionists propose changes to devolved powers that is not tedious. It is only tedious when the SNP voice an opinion.
53

MtnKat,

04/04/2008 09:47:03
48 AM2
Then why is the Scotsman supporting Scotlands positon?
You're right, that alone makes it suspect.
54

Queen D,

Glasgow 04/04/2008 09:49:49
Anyone notice a bit of news about the Americans wanting the Lockerbie bomber to serve his time/appeal in Scotland??
55

brownlie,

04/04/2008 09:50:00
47 David Ban

You have to appreciate that the government was acting in our best interests. My brothers who had bought a herring trawler shortly before then were put into debt for the rest of their lives as a result but as the government were working in their best interests they cheerfully and with great gratitude accepted that there were plenty more fish in the sea.
56

Stephen B,

04/04/2008 09:54:35
"I notice the Hootsmon, as well as limiting the stories we can comment upon today..."

The 'bomber' story is about a trial in progress and the Scotsman, like the Herald, don't seem to be taking comments on it as they are presumably under legal advice not to do so. If comments wee allowed, it is possible that any one of us could add something that was in contempt of court but the paper would get the blame as the publisher.
57

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 09:55:42
#48 AM2 - the really tedious thing is that Scotsman whipping up the perception of continuous fights between Holyrood and Westminster - even when the Scottish Government is just doing what the Scotsman has been campaigning for!!!

Oh and of course the usual unionist trolls so desperate to have a pop at the SNP on these boards is also tedious. And even their dear leader comments on it at conference! The sad thing for them - and they know it - is that their activity on places like this and their wierd obession with "cybernats" just shows how little they now have left in Scottish politics - you unionist trolls are on here shouting and screaming because there's nowhere else for you to go.... Scotland's moved on. Get used to it.
58

Guga II,

Rockall 04/04/2008 10:12:26
#62 I was not meaning stories which are obviously sub judice, but many other stories. I also queried why they had made no mention of Maggie Broon claiming for his groceries and utility bills. Don't try and ditort my comments.
59

Guga II,

Rockall 04/04/2008 10:12:58
"distort"
60

brownlie,

04/04/2008 10:17:57
63 Chris

Sorry, you are quite wrong. In this week alone headlines such as "SNP running scared ...." "Butler slams SNP ...." "Manifesto promise rejected...." and "SNP branded ridiculous" are no indication of anything other than an independent and balanced view of Scottish politics.
61

Stephen B,

Inverness 04/04/2008 10:29:56
64 - Guga II, I wasn't trying to distort your comments - I just thought they might be reiterations of the kind of comments back at 33/34. I was wrong and I apologize for any insult to your character.

62

mr angry,

ayrshire 04/04/2008 10:35:29
#48 AM2 the really tedious thing is your constant posting of drivel made out to be information. Not many people are interested in your biased , cut and paste , data. Ask for a transfer to another job within the Scotsman.
63

David MacVicar,

Web 04/04/2008 11:03:25
What nobody seems to have picked up on is the not so obvious matter of Crown Estate revenues.

Currently every activity that touches the seabed or on the coast (up to the high water mark on OS Maps I believe) is 'owned' by the Crown.

All inddtrial activities eg from renewables, oil or other stuff (eg I think port activities) are all included.
The crown recieves a %age of all the moneys generated and this flies switly out of Scotland and nicely into UK treasury coffers.

Neither does any of the revenue get counted as part of GERS afaik. Though if anyone can prove otherwise I will stand corrected!

So its another double, triple or even quadruple WHAMMY for Scotland as per usual.

Remember: Vote Union, you know its in all our best interests in this Great equitable partnership we have.
64

MtnKat,

04/04/2008 11:08:53
69 AM2
Thank you for clarifying that three of the the four parties have banded together to disenfranchise a significant portion of the electorate.
65

David MacVicar,

web 04/04/2008 11:09:05
from the Crown estates web site:
"
Marine Estate

The marine estate includes over 55% of the UK's foreshore, the beds of tidal rivers and estuaries, and almost all of the seabed out to the 12 nautical mile territorial limit around the UK. It also includes the rights to explore and utilise the natural resource of the UK continental shelf, with the exception of oil, coal and gas. It covers a diverse portfolio of interests embracing marine aggregates, potash mining, oil and gas pipelines, telecommunication and power cables, aquaculture, renewable energy, moorings, marinas, wildfowling and ports.
"

Isn't that great!
66

MtnKat,

04/04/2008 11:10:26
71 AM2
Still plucking phrases and disregarding the complete text, I see.
67

David MacVicar,

web 04/04/2008 11:12:36
For some more Scottish revenue leeching activity details:
http://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/annual_report/op-financial-review/marine-estate/marine-activity.html

Thats just the marine part...
68

MtnKat,

04/04/2008 11:13:26
addendum to 74
"Scotlands postion" corporate. As in the current administration.
69

Chris.J,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 11:15:16
#71 - a pathetic comment. now how about engaging with the issue?
70

Jimmy the Pie,

04/04/2008 11:20:05
AM2
As the recognised master of statistics could you tell me the total number of soldiers from Scottish regiments killed in Iraq and Afghanistan since the current conflicts began??
Thanking you in anticipation.

PS this is not a trick question.
71

 Ayrshire Scot™,

04/04/2008 11:20:45
69. AM2, you have once more carelessly ommitted any logic or consistency from your post.

So, 3 unionist parties pontificating on what additional powers Holyrood should have is "better serving the Scottish people" but the SNP opining on the same is designed to breed grievance and grudges?

What an odd and incoherent position. One less charitable than me might assume that some recent illness has left your mental faculties delapidated, or that you are just spinning your same old anti-SNP guff and looking increasingly ridiculous as you do so.
72

MtnKat,

04/04/2008 11:23:13
77 AM2
Yes, "minorities" do often feel disenfranchised, but in a "democracy" they are still allowed a voice. They are included, unlike the current exercise three of the four parties are indulging in.
73

John S,

04/04/2008 11:23:40
#48,#69 and #71 - I am writing no opinion poll today but you let me down with #77 you never fail.
74

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 11:24:59
Walter no 4 just for your information, The Continental Shelf Jurisdiction Acts of 1964 (Geneva) and 1968 (London) have already decided Scottish Law controls the waters up to the Continental Shelf down to parallel 55 degrees 50 North (straight from the Border to the Shelf).

So it's natural for us to also want control of the wealth coming from our own Oilfields isn't it? Just like any other normal country would.
75

European Scot,

04/04/2008 11:27:39
69 AM2

A group of three Unionist parties, which will be under an 'independent' chairman who also just happens to be a Unionist, will " review the strengths and weaknesses of the current devolution arrangement......"
Weaknesses ? There certainly are.
76

kimba,

04/04/2008 11:27:47
WELL AJ @17 knows all about "bullying tactics" he lpractices them often enough,as for westminster controling scottish seas,they are not,they are copntrolling BRITISH SEAS, and guess what YOU ARE STILL PART OF GREAT BRITAIN!
77

McX,

04/04/2008 11:30:10
#86 Guess what you are still a dribbling mentalist LOL FACT
78

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 04/04/2008 11:39:11
AM2 no 77, did you say WE'LL have to get over it??? You're the people who lost the election. You're the people resorting to alarmist headlines in your Unionist press and you're the guy who is desperately clinging to one dubious but 'advantageous' poll result which you have been flogging to death for days or is it weeks now?

I'm sure a sophisticated political observer like yourself knows that even 23% is an excellent base from which to launch a campaign because even you know that figure will soar as the soft 'non Independence' vote begins to come over in droves during the campaign.

Clearly you and your fellow right wing Unionist friends are terrified of the forthcoming Referendum Campaign as statistics and facts which you and yours have suppressed for decades begin to see the light of day.

At which point we will most certainly be saying, AM2, we have Independence now so get over it!!
79

brownlie,

glasgow 04/04/2008 11:39:40
81 Mtn Kat

Are you mad? Why should around one and a half million Scots be allowed any say in the future of this nation in the current democracy? You are much better leaving it in the capable hands of Wendy, Nicol and Annabelle.
80

Hamish Scott,

04/04/2008 12:15:37
The bottom line is who do we trust more to look after the seas around Scotland - Holyrood or Westminster?

#48 and #55

Both of you are conflating support for the Union as support for something in particular - in AM2's case, control over the seas and in brownlie's case, support for Gordon Brown and his government.
Perhaps you (brownlie) could provide your evidence that Gordon Brown and his government have 75% support in Scotland, or would you rather withdraw that claim?
Likewise, perhaps you (AM2) could provide your evidence that 75% of Scots think Westminster should control our seas, or would you rather withdraw that claim?
81

brownlie,

glasgow 04/04/2008 12:22:56
Hamish, my friend, if you think for one minute that I was being serious regarding Brown, Goldie, Stevens, or Wendy, that I gladly withdraw. From my point of view I cannot understand why even 75 individuals in this country should back Brown etc.
82

Jimmy the Pie,

04/04/2008 12:27:01
Does anyone know the names of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Westminster MPs who voted for the war in Iraq?? It's for my Phd!
83

Hamish Scott,

04/04/2008 12:29:43
#92
Ooops! Sorry for misreading your post, it's difficult to differentiate satire from most unionist posts.
84

Hamish Scott,

04/04/2008 12:37:26
#93
Jackie - I don't think we'll get a true picture of support for 'further powers' until the unionist Constitutional Commission comes up with a specific package - 'further powers' is just too vague. Nor do we know how many people who support 'further powers' see it as an intermediate step to independence. I think the unionists have realised that they have to offer more devolution, the challenge is for them to come up with a strong and workable scheme.
85

Alan B,

04/04/2008 12:37:49
Brown is misjudgging scotland badly if he thinks his maturity is going to secure the union. His childishness is not way to play adult politics.

If scotland is to stay within the union it needs a strong devolved parliament. Basically decisions should be taken at westminster because that is the best place to take the decision. ie it is best that we have a single policy. It could be argued defence and foreign are policy areas would best best taken at westminster if we stay within the union.

Labour have managed to create a mess of devolution where every area of policy messly fudged between westminster and the sp.

Scotland needs to move forward to dev max quickly. Fiscal autonomy will stop english resentment to scotland and allow english votes on english issues to be introduced.

Atleast then we could have a grown up debate on independence and its merits. So many unionists on these forums tend to go against an policy snp when it is clearly in scotland advantage.

Has anyone actually tried to work what advantage there would be to scotland not to devolve it. Having a policy that would go against the sp energy policies is barking mad for conservation reasons. Clearly one party must be in charge of the full picture and here it makes complete sense for that to be the sp.




86

Alan B,

04/04/2008 12:45:38
AM2 "About 23% want independence. About 65% want devolution"

You can spin stats if u want. That data also shows the about 70% wanting substantially more powers for the sp. As u say "not to sugar coat it" the poeple do not like the devolution lite that labout has implemented. A clear majority want substantial more powers for the sp.
87

Nikostratos,

04/04/2008 12:46:00
#90 Jackie Priest,


"It is unbelievable, incredible, beyond belief that Scotland does not have control of its own waters."

It does it just can't have all the rest which constitutionally and with the backing of all international laws the snp has no claim to.

There will be 'no-stand off' Westminster is the primary parliament holyrood the subordinate......

Perhaps if the snp were able to behave in more civilised manner.........but then it is in the nature of the 'Nationalist' beast


#91

not the snp that's for sure

#93


There's a guy who bleats about 'Liberty'(#90) and then quotes 23% as a reason to pursue a course of action which 77% do not want.........

'Nationalist' extremist to the core its time 'YOU' accepted the settled will of the people and gave up on your forlorn attempt for a lost cause. Which the facts (as Alex himself accepts) most are simply not Interested in nor wish for.......
88

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 04/04/2008 12:46:26
48 AM2,Scotland,UK 04/04/2008 09:20:23



What is tedious in the extreme for you, ("the rest of us," indicates that you think you speak for all,a sign of your pomposity and self importance,) it is a subject for debate that no matter how much you troll and troll under you various guises, (cue the return of HM,) as I have told you on many occasions your opinions on here are just entertainment value, as you are exposed daily as the aparatchik agitating troll and utter fake that you are. The middle of a doughnut.


Logging of and pretending that you have other things to do when we can see that you are commander in chief of The Pyjama People who is so utterly obsessed with his own importance and desire to attract attention that he cannot leave his monitor for ten seconds, hence the morphing between different monikers to try and hide, what a sad individual.


Delete this and moderate me as you will I will come back again and again, much as you would love to you cannot shut me up.

ALBA GU BRATH................
89

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 04/04/2008 12:47:09
CENTURY !
90

Caligula,

04/04/2008 12:49:38
#100 Hen Broon: as he keeps on repeating, AM2 only ever posts as AM2, oh unacceptable face of nationalism. Just like my good self in fact...
91

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 04/04/2008 12:49:45
The Treasury document "Funding the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales and Northern Ireland Assembly: Statement of Funding Policy" (dated October 2007) states the following:

The Government intends that this population-based formula will apply to changes in almost all the expenditure under the control of the Scottish Parliament and National Assembly for Wales. It will not apply to changes in agriculture programmes 100 per cent funded by the EU. The Government will also want to consider whether this approach or another formula is appropriate in relation to provision for Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit which will both come within the Scottish Block for the first time after devolution; Housing Benefit is already within the Welsh Block, but, as in Scotland, COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT WILL COME WITHIN THE BLOCK for the first time.

Spending programmes forming part of the Scottish Block

Domestic agriculture, fisheries and food (after devolution)
Forestry (after devolution)
Industry, enterprise and training
Roads and transport
Housing
Other environmental services
Law, order and protective services
Education
Arts and libraries
Health
Social work services
Other public services
ESF
ERDF
Nationalised Industries (after devolution)

COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT (after devolution)

Local authority expenditure


2. In a Parliamentary Answer of December 1997 Alistair Darling said:

Mr. Darling: The Government will also want to consider whether this approach or another formula is appropriate in relation to provision for Council Tax Benefit and Housing Benefit which will both come within the Scottish Block for the first time after devolution; Housing Benefit is already within the Welsh Block, but, as in Scotland, COUNCIL TAX BENEFIT WILL COME within the Block for the first time.

Hansard 9th December 1997 : Column: 511
92

HEN BROON 5,

ALBA being held back by the UK 04/04/2008 12:51:21
A survey by YouGov, undertaken on behalf of the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) and conducted during the election, revealed that 88% would prefer a system of local revenue raising based on income tax, while only 12% preferred it to be based on the value of property.
YouGov poll, 17-23 April, sample 1,872