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Westminster accuses SNP of move to ditch EU fishing policy



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Published Date: 22 May 2008
THE power struggle between Westminster and Holyrood took to the seas last night after a row broke out over fishing policies.
UK Labour ministers accused their Nationalist counterparts of trying to withdraw unilaterally from the European Common Fisheries Policy.

They have questioned the legality of the Scottish Government's moves contained in a consultation launched yes
terday by Richard Lochhead, the rural affairs secretary, and have said it will undermine Britain's negotiating power in the EU.

They are also seething over the lack of time given to look at the consultation before it was launched.

But the SNP's Mr Lochhead has said he is simply trying to do his best for the Scottish fishing industry and pointed out that the row is only over a consultation document, which has had positive feedback from the fishing industry.

The consultation is looking at how to safeguard Scottish fishing quotas, make licensing more user-friendly and encourage new blood into the fishing industry.

But Jim Murphy, the UK Government's Europe minister, said: "This is yet another example of the Scottish Executive trying to pick and choose the elements of the devolved settlement it adheres to according to political expediency rather than fact."

The UK fisheries minister, Jonathan Shaw, added: "We question whether this would stand up to legal scrutiny. It creates additional risk and uncertainty for fishermen already under pressure."

But an aide to Mr Lochhead said that the SNP was astonished that the UK Government wanted to pick a fight on this issue.

"We are simply looking at the best way forward for our fishermen and to be fair the fishing industry in Scotland is right behind us," he said. "Of course we believe that industry would be better served by an independent Scotland, but by choosing to fight us on a consultation, the UK Government has just shown how out of touch it is."

The Scottish Government hopes one benefit of the new system for managing its fishing quota would be to clamp down on so called "slipper skippers".

These are non-active, often retired fishermen who still have a quota allocation, which some lease out in return for a profit. About 7 per cent of the North Sea fishing quota lies in the control of slipper skippers.

Iain MacSween, the chief executive of the Scottish Fishermen's Organisation, said: "It's absurd that former fishermen and, in some cases not even former fishermen, can make a better living renting out quotas to active fishermen than fishermen can make by catching fish."

Under the proposed system, quota-holders who are not active would have to relinquish them to active fishermen within six months. Any organisations outside Scotland that got hold of Scottish quotas would also be asked to show economic benefit to Scotland.

ANALYSIS

THIS latest clash between Westminster and Holyrood represents a new twist in the almost weekly conflicts.

Frequently, it is SNP ministers trying to pick fights with their UK counterparts as in the case of lottery money going to the London Olympics and possible return of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya.

In this instance, UK ministers have shown that they, too, are willing to pick a fight with the Nationalists on a favourite SNP topic – fishing.



The full article contains 544 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 22/05/2008 00:06:04
Heaths' insane 1971 fisheries policy sell out should be recalled. How many towns has this destroyed in Scotland ?

How on earth can the english parliament think that the Common fisheries policy was a good idea for Britain? Totally mad.
2

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22/05/2008 00:07:05
Comment Removed By Administrator
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3

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 22/05/2008 00:11:38
Here, have thousands of years of our welfare, tradition and community, and welcome foreign boats with little or no coast line to come right in to take our fish. We are still in no position to regulate our fish stocks to allow them to remain healthy.

I don't expect to have equal share of a special resource that comes out of the ground in Bavaria, why should we lose our command of one of our oldest trades?

Establish a 350 mile manned radius.
4

,

22/05/2008 00:12:43
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5

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22/05/2008 00:13:14
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6

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 22/05/2008 00:27:43
"Westminster accuses SNP of move to ditch EU fishing policy"


5 minute standing ovation for SNP common sense.
7

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 22/05/2008 00:31:19
This is a much more balanced piece than Newsnicht - at least it explains the Scottish Government's argument.

Gordon Brewer gave the UK minister such an easy time even though he didn't look as if he knew what he was talking about.

Contrast that with the agressive, arrogant contempt he had for Richard Lochhead. Lochhead knows which the side the Scottish people are going to take. It ain't London's.
8

Royster,

22/05/2008 00:42:03
I agree the EU fishing policy is a joke so, grudgingly, I support the SNP on this one. However, the point about the EU is that it is very hard to act unilaterally for one particular industry. Others will retaliate and an independent Scotland simply wouldn't have the muscle at an EU bargaining table. Don't forget, English fishermen have also suffered because of this cr*p EU policy.
9

Jwil,

22/05/2008 00:51:44
Lochhead is trying to stop a sellout of Scottish fishing quotes to foreign fishing interests, which would devastate fishing communities in Scotland. The Westminster government should be supporting this initiative and so should the Scotsman.

Gordon Brewer appears to be not only anti-SNP but anti-Scottish as well.

10

,

22/05/2008 01:04:00
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11

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 22/05/2008 01:09:56
Well well well, london telling us what we as SCOTS should be talking about in a consultation paper,how PATHETIC ARE THOSE CREEPS! Oh and by the way jim murphy is well qualified to to SLAP the Executive in the face when it does not EXIST. SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT AND SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE!!!!!!
12

Soosider,

Glasgow 22/05/2008 01:24:34
Fishing is a devolved matter, it says so in the Scotland Act. The real question is why did the previous 2 Holyrood governments not pick up this devolved issue and act in Scotlands interest.
Well done for standing up for Scotland
13

Edward,

22/05/2008 01:40:12
#12 Soosider,Glasgow
That ones easy to answer!
They did as they were told by Westminster and did nothing to support the Scottish Fishermen
Remeber the scandal of the Scottish Fishermen loosing the rights to fish for langoustine catch in Scottish waters (Scotsman - 22/03/07 http://tinyurl.com/6n9927)
14

Edward,

22/05/2008 01:55:46
Newsnight Scotland was highly bias against the Scottish Government last night in its reporting on this story. Kept showing an interview with a rather suspect representative of the Scottish White Fish Producers' Association , who seemed a bit nervous wehn talking to camera. This was the BBC's excuse for their 'Scottish Fishermen' against the SNP slant. I would be interested in knowing just how many memnbers of the Scottish White Fish Producers' Association still fish? I would not be surprised if those that have retired, which they still have a quota allocation, and lease out in return for a profit.
Im pleased for once we have a Scottish Government thats taking an interest in one of our important resources and standing up for Scotland.
This paper can say what it likes, but the Scottish government are not 'picking fights with Westminster' but standing up for Scottish interests. Something Labour just dont do!
15

Guga II,

Rockall 22/05/2008 02:27:00
The CFP is a joke, and Scotland should withdraw from it. Then we should withdraw from that other farce, the CAP. The next logical step after that is to withdraw from that totally incompetent and utterly corrupt organisation known as the EU.

The sooner Scotland gets out from under the English yoke, and the EU yoke, the better.
16

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 22/05/2008 04:59:45
"UK Labour ministers accused their Nationalist counterparts of trying to withdraw unilaterally from the European Common Fisheries Policy.

"They have ...said it will undermine Britain's negotiating power in the EU."

Yes indeed, the horrible Scots are trying to undermine Britain's objective of destroying another major Scottish industry.
17

scottish person,

paisley 22/05/2008 05:57:10
When is the Scotsman going to be the SCOTSMAN.I am getting tired of this union rag. The Scottish fisherman have been treated with contempt for years. I remember that useless piece of work ross finnie falling asleep at a euro meeting on fishing, missing a vital vote. What is wrong with this paper?
18

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 22/05/2008 06:02:53
I don't like either the Union or the EU, and would welcome Scotland banning foreign fishers, but the price will be high: just look at the mess Iceland is getting into.

Independence is frying pan to fire.
19

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 06:16:19
Another reason to doubt the SNP's motives when it comes to looking after Scotland's interests rather than their own narrow political objectives. The nats' ludicrous idea that they can simply re-negotiate the CFP within the EU would be a joke if it weren't so serious. It is another cruel hoax perpetrated on the Scottish people by the most cynical and opportunistic administration we have ever seen.
We now have the executive in Holyrood suggesting that they will be able to bounce the rest of the EU into amending the CFP in an independent Scotland's favour. That won't happen and most damningly of all, the SNP know it. Shame on them.
20

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 06:59:55
Get a grip of yourself Grahamski. I dont know where you are from but dont you dare tell the People of Scotland that fighting for our rights is anything but the right thing to do. And if you are Scottish and have taken the London side then shame on you.

If we loaded up a fleet of 100 trucks and headed of to Germany and started to cut down their forests then I am sure there would be an almighty stink by the krauts. Same applies to the French Farmers etc. The trees and suchlike belong to the Nations that own them, so why should we Scots just stand by and let English, Italian, French and even countries fishing fleets who dont even have shoreline to the sea, fish SCOTTISH Waters. Scotland has 75% of the entire EU Fishing Grounds. Not England or the rest of them. It is a natural resource of the Scottish Nation, there to be nurtured and more importantly owned by US.

Even the most biased Unionist on this forum cannot in all honesty argue any different. If they do, I'll be over to dig up the plants in their gardens or take the vegies they grow. Its my right as a member of their community to take what I like. England have never had the right to take our fishing grounds and give ownership to whoever takes their fancy. Maggie Thatcher did it so the nutter pseudo English Unionist Tories on these forums are sure to argue in her favour. Hands off Scotlands Fish.
21

haggis 10,

The Capital city of Scotland 22/05/2008 07:08:28
Fortnum and Mason do a mavelous Haddock au Frite freshly imported from that quaint old village of Arbroath each day starting price a mere £50 per portion.
22

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 07:14:24
20 A Better Way
How can Scotland possibly have 75% of the entire EU fishing grounds? Look at all the other countries with large coastlines- Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, Greece, Denmark etc. Are you saying that Scotland has three times as much as all of these contries combined?
23

john z,

edinburgh 22/05/2008 07:15:19
If this is true, well done to the Scottish Government. It has been a long time coming.

I have NEVER understood why English MP's and ministers are allowed to sit in Brussels and negotiate away the entire Scottish fishing fleet, just to appease English voters on EU changes. It is a disgrace.

Well done to the Scottish Government for once again standing up for Scotlands interests. Unlike Gordon Brown, the dis -nonorary englishman.


And by the way, for heaven's sake Scotsman, are you now just the mouthpiece for Gordon Browns office? Did you miss the bit about the Scottish fishing industry being right behind the Scottish Government on this??
24

911 was an inside job.,

22/05/2008 07:43:55
Ditch the EU, vote UKIP!
25

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 07:48:16
20.
I see that you do not address my substantive point: The SNP's claim that they can re-negotiate the CFP within the EU is a cruel hoax perpetrated on the Scottish people by a cynical and opportunistic administration.
Put aside the bombastic bluster for a moment and we are left with one immutable fact - the SNP are suggesting a course of action which they know cannot succeed. It is a cruel and cynical exercise designed to further engender a feeling of grievance against the UK and indeed the rest of the EU by this increasingly discredited administration.
They have nothing to offer but girning and sulking. Pathetic.
26

Ken S.,

Reading 22/05/2008 07:59:17
The one bit of SNP policy that I do not comprehend is to remain in the EU.

Firstly, being in the EU and being an independent nation are mutually exclusive conditions.

Secondly, if you're in the EU Club then you obey club rules. The only advantage of so-called independence within EU is that Scotland would get to hear the Brussels diktats directly rather than through Westminster.
27

yockel,

22/05/2008 08:07:31
#25 What's your point Grahamski? Don't mention inequity because you're scared of losing the fight?

Don't Nublab spend half their time "sending messages" with no intention of doing anything and the other half looking for messages that might win them a vote?
28

yockel,

22/05/2008 08:11:35
#26 Fair point Ken S. but we could be a lot more European with out being a member of the EU. If we did stay in, applying the EU dictats ourselves would allow a great deal more flexibility over the zealotry of the UK civil service. Having a voice in the EU would be a start though.
29

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 08:12:46
There is an old saying that surely applies to the former Scottish Executive, in fact to Labour MSPs in general - "They have never done anything individually and collectively decide that nothing can ever be done."
30

Royster,

22/05/2008 08:20:25
#18. Good point. Iceland - part of Salmond's 'arc of prosperity' - has interest rates of close to 16% and inflation of just under 12%.
31

Royster,

22/05/2008 08:23:40
#23. Why just the Scottish fishing fleet? What about the English fishermen? Where has Westminster given priority to English fishermen over Scottish ones? Are the people of Hull, Grimsby, Cornwall and Whitby living the life of Riley whilst the Scots starve? Get real.
32

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 08:33:59
27
My point is a simple one.
The SNP claim that Scotland as an independent country can re-negotiate the terms of the CFP. They know this to be untrue but persist in peddling this tissue of lies.
It is a cynical and cruel deception perpetrated by an opportunistic and irresponsible administration. They should be ashamed of themselves.
33

amberlight,

Scotland 22/05/2008 08:34:24
A reminder of what this is all about:

http://news.scotsman.com/seafishingindustry/Fishing-armada-39set--to.3972179.jp

http://news.scotsman.com/seafishingindustry/Scotland--39shaking-itself-.3838332.jp

Richard Lochhead:
http://www.snp.org/node/13829

Good job Richard! But I agreed with #26 Ken S., we should get out of the EU - Norway has the right idea imo.


34

Iain's,

Barcelona 22/05/2008 08:35:55
Here in Spain, people believe that because they eat more fish than in any other European country, they should get priority regarding fishing.

So unless Scotland has an Icelandic - style fisheries policy, you can watch as all Scottish fishing ports close forever.

Go to Newhaven in Edinburgh and look at the harbour. Dead. This is the future if the New Labour gang have their way.

With reference to the first posting. Who was Ed Heath?
Obviously it was all the fault of Henry VIII and Cromwell too. What is the point of looking back to past failures. We need positive action now.

Must go to the market and buy some fish from one of the 20 or so stalls.

You are just foolish if you think you can stand between a Spaniard and his fish supper!





35

Royster,

22/05/2008 08:37:07
#32. You're right. Just look how much trouble the EU has been able to give non-EU Switzerland over banking secrecy. Scotland would have very little in the way of bargaining power.
36

Alasdair,

22/05/2008 09:01:36
I love this sentence:
"In this instance, UK ministers have shown that they, too, are willing to pick a fight with the Nationalists on a favourite SNP topic – fishing".

In THIS instance? Considering Broon said he wouldn't even talk to the Nats, The Hootsmon's misrepresentation of the truth has reached new heights (or should that be lows) here.
37

mr angry,

ayrshire 22/05/2008 09:03:51
#35 Royster what a weasel you are , if someone from UK told you that breathing in Scotland was illegal I am certain that you are so thick you would stop breathing right away. Get a backbone man , Scotland has been tramped over for far too long , time to stand up and tell these people that enough is enough. If they don't want to play then we should take our ball away.
38

mr angry,

ayrshire 22/05/2008 09:05:49
#32 Grahamski, you are another snivelling cretin with no backbone, how subservient can you get, time for Scotland to look after its own interests and stop beind taken for a ride.
39

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 22/05/2008 09:28:00
Grahamski

From the Scotsman (not Richard Lochead):
"The consultation is looking at how to safeguard Scottish fishing quotas, make licensing more user-friendly and encourage new blood into the fishing industry."

Is that why you and your London Government are picking a fight? Is that it?

Scotland is a country currently within a United Kingdom of countries within a Union of States. Why would you not want to stand up for your own country within this huge conglomerate. Does your own political interest override the welfare of those you live with? Are you worthy?
40

ExpatNI,

somewhereelse 22/05/2008 09:37:02
#22.
Actually, The old Strathclyde region alone has a coastline greater than France. True. Measure it.
But why shouldn't a Scottish Administration fight for Scottish industries and Scottish jobs?
41

BIG EYE,

Paisley 22/05/2008 09:40:21
Why the SNP are doing this is because fishing to many small communities is the basis of their local economy. If slipper skippers sell their quota to English, Spanish or any other countries fleet, then this business is lost to these local communities.

It is the SCOTTISH QUOTA, it is a Devolved power and BREWER should have told the UK Minister to butt out, instead he did his best to bolster his position to Scotland's detriment.

Well done the SNP, give us more of the same.This is precisely why Scotland voted for you!
42

Alan B,

22/05/2008 09:42:15
Completely disagree with the comments (#9 and #10)slagging of Gordon Brewer. Think he is an excellent interviewer.
43

Alan B,

22/05/2008 09:43:22
#BIG EYE

It is not the interviewers job to tell the "UK minister to butt out".
44

Alan B,

22/05/2008 09:48:10
#Royster

U make very little sense. The problem is the uk government have sold the fish industry down the river. When entering negotations the scottish fish industry is a bargaining chip they have bargained away to achieve other goals.

The fact that the uk government has sold english fishermen out to is irrelevant when we are looking at what is good for scotland.

The question is, is how can we get a better deal for scotland. U come across too much as a union apologist. A union at any price.
45

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 09:59:40
39.
From the consultation paper:
'The Scottish Government is seeking to withdraw from the CFP'.
This is impossible within the EU, the SNP are aware of this yet they persist in peddling this myth.
Unprincipled lying liars.
Once you strip out the bombast of the SNP you're left with nothing but posturing buffoonery.
The people of Scotland's welfare is too important to be left to this bunch of opportunistic chancers.
46

Alan B,

22/05/2008 10:00:39
#Ken S

I think u miss the point about scotland being an independent member of the EU.

"Firstly, being in the EU and being an independent nation are mutually exclusive conditions."

France, Germany, Ireland are independent nations. Yes there are sovereignty issues involved, as there would be by joining any club and having to obey the rules of that club, but they are still independent sovereign nations.

when looking at whether scotland should be a member of the European union or the british union u have to look and the advantages and disadvantes of these unions and how it would benefit scotland.

The uk union has not and does not work to scotlands advantage. For one thing it is far to restrictive and far too centralising.

A member of the eu controls all there own taxation. Yes there are certain harmonisations like vat must be within a certain range but nothing too restrictive. Most of these harmonisations are also logical.

Within the uk, scotland has little control over tax.

Part of the other problem is the very weak nature of the scottish parliament. Scotland cannot chose many aspects of its separate legal system like firearms,drugs, id cards, number of days detention. Scotalnd cannot control its energy policy fully. It ability to stop nuclear came throw planning law.

Then u look at currency. The euro would be better for scotland than sterling where interest rates have generallly been too high for the scottish economy.

Add to that an independent scotland within the eu would be free to choose when to get involved in wars and also whether to fund nuclear weapons.
47

Alan B,

22/05/2008 10:07:54
#Grahamski

U say it is impossible but what proof do u have it would be impossible.

Their policy rightly or wrong is to have an independent scotland within the EU. As part of the negotations with the EU they want to opt out of CFP.

I agree that might be tough and they may not be able to do it. But there is no reason for a political party not to try. At the very least i would expect them to get a much better deal for scottish fisherman than the current situation. Spain have a much better deal. Why the uk governments did not see fishing as a priority in negotations.

The fact is uk governments have opted out of the euro and at one point the social chapter. They do not participate in the non border control agreement.

Fisheries are now not that important in european terms. We are living in a post industrial economy. Scotland may very well be able to count on support of other countries like ireland, denmark, sweden. The EU may consider that CFP has failed and think its removal would help encourage Norwegian membership.
48

Arfur,

22/05/2008 10:09:12
Well done SNP. About time.

It is great having a government that actually looks after the country.

As for the halfwit unionists above, you really are as thick as mince if you argue against this one.
49

Rasco,

Inverness 22/05/2008 10:09:23
Has anyone seen what the French Goverment is to be paying out to their fisherman, read the Press & Journal today.If they can do this why can't our lot in London do it or do THEY just want to pick a fight with the SNP stick up for our on Richard.
50

Miss H,

22/05/2008 10:18:46
Labour's tactics are unfathomable. It's as if they are just picking issues where the SNP can't help but win to make a stand on.

Bizarre.
51

Miss H,

22/05/2008 10:22:37
8 Royster. It is a matter of public record that the fishing industry was described as 'expendable' in the negotiations when Britain signed up to the Common Market. Subsequent events have demonstrated how true that was.

Yes potentially Britain had clout at fisheries negotiations. Potentially they could have got the best possible deal for the Scottish fleet. But they didn't. They rolled over and our fishing industry got shafted. That's what happens when you allow yourself to be sidelined.
52

sm753,

22/05/2008 10:24:09

The Nat-wits have obviously not realised that, should they get to bring about their nightmare of "independence", the only EU membership deal on the table will be one with no negotiation, no opt-outs and signing up to the full package of policies as they are.

There is no "international rule book" for EU entry - it is a political decision made by the existing members for their own self interest. And none of them want to make it easy for secessionists.
53

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 10:27:30
8

They would have a damn site more muscle than they have now which makes your comment yet another idiotic unthought out meaningless post.
What is this compulsion you have to make a complete t*t of yourself everytime you come onto these blogs??
54

Miss H,

22/05/2008 10:30:41
25 Grahamski I suspect you do not follow these matters very closely. Nobody thinks the CFP in its current form is sustainable. Everyone supports more regional management. The SNP is swimming with the tide not against it.
55

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 22/05/2008 10:40:12
I am struggling to work out sho are the posters here who would wish to oppose the SNP's stance on trying to protect the Scottish fishing industry. Some seem to be far right Unionist faantics an UKIPs. Others are Labour trolls opposing for opposing's sake.

Either way they have no intention to be constructive and would rather Scottish interests were destroyed than concede that there might be merit in SNP policies.
56

Miss H,

22/05/2008 10:43:07
52 Aye they are making it so difficult for Montenegro aren't they? Must be why the EU managed the referendum by which Montenegro became independent. That's showing them. No secessionists here.
57

bluehead,

edinburgh 22/05/2008 10:46:06
about tme to ! this world has become one large mad house
58

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 10:46:08
54
This kind of obfuscation is typical of the nats. Are you saying that it is possible to gain admittance to the EU without accepting the terms of the CFP?
The simple truth is that an independent Scotland would not be accepted into the EU without Scotland first accepting the terms of the CFP. Fact.
To suggest otherwise is cynical and ooportunistic bombast. Again, typical SNP tactics: propose the impossible then blame everybody else when their ill-thought out plans collapse in a heap of their own incompetence. Pathetic.
59

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 22/05/2008 11:03:56
#25 Grahamski

You are mis-quoting what was said.

He did not say that he would "simply re-negotiate the CFP"

Nor did he claim that "they can re-negotiate the CFP".

What he said was they would make the case to the EU and try to re-negotiate the CFP. He never once said it would be easy of a foregone conclusion. The chances of success depend entirely on the skill of the person carrying out the negotiations.

60

Guga II,

Rockall 22/05/2008 11:04:01
#30. It's good to see that you agree with one of your own countrymen.
61

Alan B,

22/05/2008 11:05:29
#Grahamski

I agree that with u it would be difficult to negotiate EU membership with an opt out for CFP. However to say they cannot and that it is fact is wrong.

For me the bigger question would they be able to rectifiy the problems brought about by the uk selling scotlands fishing industry down the river. Can they get a deal like spain?

The problem with ur whole approach to politics is u are like the guy from dads army. "We're doomed".

That is the problem with labour in scotland. A poverty of ambition. Unless u have high expectations u will never succeed. It was like McConnell. Set expectations so low. They u cannot fail to meet them.

Scotland should look at the best, aim to achieve and if we do not quite match them then atleast we have tried (and we can keep on trying). Rather than the labour idea of we're crap and we know we are and cannot expect anything better. It is such a sad way to approach life.
62

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 11:07:35
59
Here is what the SNP administration claim (from their own document):
'The Scottish Government is seeking to withdraw from the CFP'.
The SNP know this to be impossible within the rules of the EU.
Cynical opportunistic liars that they are.
63

Grahamski,

Falkirk 22/05/2008 11:10:07
61.
Difficult? It is impossible, the SNP know this. It makes them the most awful kind of political charlatans this country has ever seen. Their whole programme is built on false premises, broken promises and grievance-fuelled girning. Scotland deserves better.
64

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 22/05/2008 11:13:06
#58 grahamski

Your aggressive style of argument displays a certain lack of conviction in your own beliefs.

Why so agressive? surely your arguments could be equally well made in a civilised way?
65

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 22/05/2008 11:18:09
#62 Grahamski

Note the word "seeking". It is an aspiration. It will not be easy or simple.

Incidently, words like "impossible" belong in the lexicon of the likes of Jack McConnell and Wendy Alexander.

I recall many opposition politicians and political commentators saying that it would be impossible for the SNP Government to get its budget through parliament. In the event they did.
66

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeenshire 22/05/2008 11:29:31
Grahamski

The SNPs aims are for independence. Doh! Why would they not consult on whether it was in Scotland's interests to withdraw from the CFP? Even in a UK context, it's worth testing the legality of it if it gives our fishermen a better deal. Do they not have the support of the Scottish Fishing Industry?

"Shameful, opportunistic, cynical, bombast, bluster, girning, sulking, pathetic, lies, deception, peddling, unprincipled, lying, liars, posturing, bufoonery, chancers, obfuscation, incompetence, pathetic".

Using colourful language like this just confirms your ability for incitement and your inadequacy for substantive argument. As always, you argue against it because it comes from the SNP Government. If it had come from Labour you would have supported it. Usual tactics.
67

Ananurhing,

22/05/2008 11:35:22
Well done Richard Lochhead. This can only get more interesting as it gathers pace, and westminster Labour are truely rattled.

"it will undermine Britain's negotiating power in the EU." Duh!
There's an admission for you. That our fishing industry has been offered up to enhance the UK's "negotiating power".

Now Mr. Lochhead. When will you get round to addressing a similar land based issue? The non doms who are sitting on top of most of the Scottish land mass, paying no tax, and receiving subsidies to do so.
When are you going to review the Land Reform Act? It's barely created a ripple, never mind reform. Labour and the Glibdums would be up for it. When will there be a consultation on this hugely important issue?
It's potentially a bigger fish than the fishing industry.
68

Ken S.,

Reading 22/05/2008 12:17:18
#46 Alan B,
Your points about EU are valid in present terms but just think how incrementally the EU has evolved since EEC days. Is the process going to stop at the current situation? I think not!

If a UK government with a heavy Scots-constituency representation at senior levels has had to concede so much, given the supposed power of a United K,what additional strength could an independent Scotland bring to bear on its own account?

I'm not arguing the point as to independence v union. Simply whether there can be true sovereignty/independence as a member of a political EU (as opposed to a trade & cooperation one), whether as UK or as independent Scotland.


P.S. I first wrote "...arguing the t .. o .. s .. s" [without the spacings] but the system rejected it:
"We have detected some potentially unsuitable words in your post" :-)
69

PaulW,

Borders 22/05/2008 12:30:42
Keep up the good work, Richard. Nice to have a Government with a spine.

To those that think that withdrawal from CFP is non-negotiable, remember the EU would need Scotland's seas and airspace, as well as a huge share of Europe's energy reserves and renewable energy potential. We are in a strong position to negotiate what works for us.

The rest of Europe wants us in the EU, make no mistake. I just hope the defeatists like grahamski are never in a position to negotiate anything more significant than their way out of their beds in the morning.

#26 - Countries such as Norway are, in effect, bound to an increasing proportion of EU regulations (many of which are nonsense of course), without any say in them, as a consequence of being within EFTA.

Hence, while I symapthise with your view, Scotland's position is perhaps best served by being within the the EU and enjoying the benefits of that huge market, but while being able to influence change. Moreover, we should, as an independent state, actually have our own seat at the top table and more MEPs than the UK/EU allocates us as a "region".

Scotland would also get its own chance, as an Independent state, to hold the Presidency of the EU and to promote issues of concern to Scotland and other smaller member states.

The Norwegians and the good folk of Iceland are maybe beginning to find that, as a condition of membership of the EFTA, their legislation and regulatory environment has to comply with EU law, and yet they are powerless to change it. It might seem like it is a good thing to be outside, but I doubt they would be as sure of that now, while Iceland's currency is probably pretty vulnerable to speculators. Hence, IMHO, it would be worth being part of a currency union like the Euro, which has traditionally enjoyed lower interest rates than in the UK at both the peak and trough of the economic cycle and which would remove much of the exchange rate risks for Scotland's exporters.

I am speaking as
70

PaulW,

Borders 22/05/2008 12:33:14
......someone who once felt more Euro-sceptic, and formerly voted Tory, but I am now coming to realise it is not the EU that is at fault, but the cretins (including Tories) that we have previously had representing us in negotiation, while successive Governments (Tory and Labour) have failed to defend our interests and have failed to seize opportunities as they have arisen. With a different style of participation, and as an independent (of the UK) nation state within the EU, we can make Europe work to our advantage not our detriment. Richard Lochhead and his team have provided a good example, to-date, of how to do exactly that. More power to them.

That'll teach me to waffle...shorter next time, I promise!
71

Alan B,

22/05/2008 12:34:06
#Ken S

I agree at some point the EU could get so controlling that u virtually give up ur independence. It depends how far it goes.

There are things i like about the EU and things i would like to change.

I like:
1)the single market (although i would like the concepts extended to cap and services).
2)common currency: i do not believe countries should be forced to join.
3)freedom of movement of people: I like the idea u can go and work anywhere in the EU. Extends personal freedoms. I do think consideration the UK could have done something to transition the effects of the new members from the east, to prevent the unease help be some people. (they should probably have restricted non eu immigration more).

do think that
1)we cannot deal with global environmental issues ourselves and the eu is a good basis to deal with these. whether it is using the single market to limit the power required by light bulbs or the output from cars.
2)would like the EU to develop a common foreign policy. i do not like the slagging of of the us when we do nothing. ie we should take responsibility for dealing with the world problems.

this could be things like peace keeping. resolving international disputes etc. If the EU had turkey as an affluent member we would have borders with Iraq, Iran etc. A strong military presence by the EU could prevent many of the things that have gone on there. ie would sadam have dropped chemical weapons on his own people etc.

i also would like the eu to strenthen the democractic and economic situations along north africa the eu neighbours.

The things i do not like about the EU are its encroachment into domestic affairs. ie things that can be dealt better at a country level.

I would like them out social policy. I do not want them involved in education. Rules that over higher education funding are barmy.

CAP should be scrapped. Firstly move to a situation where countries pay for their own agriculture policy and then scrap subsidies. U
72

Alan B,

22/05/2008 12:35:25
cont...

CAP should be scrapped. Firstly move to a situation where countries pay for their own agriculture policy and then scrap subsidies. U can still protect the EU market from external competition, but have a free market within the EU.

73

Suomi,

Salo ,Finland 22/05/2008 12:36:59
The so called negotiating power of Britain failed to protect the interests of Scottish fisherman in the past.By contrast Spain and Denmark looked after their fishing undustry extremely well.The SNP have consistently stood up for the Scottish fishing industry.The redoutable Winnie Ewing (who was my MEP) and her son Fergus Ewing( MSP)are greatly respected by the fishing industry.That is why the SNP always get the bulk of the fishing vote.This is just one example of the SNP's long tradition of standing up for Scotlands interests.Now that the SNP are on power,I am very pleased to read about Richard Lochead's efforts on behalf of our fishing indutry.Yes,they do deserve better and Lochead is delivering.

Very interesting to read two examples in one day of Westminster picking fights with the Scottish government This tortuos logic that defending the interests of your population is somehow about girning is truly amazing.It is a view that will not be shared by the bulk of the fishing industry.In Inverness,Nairn and Lochaber,fishermen were advised by their union to vote SNP at the last election for the Scottish Parliament.Doesn't sound as if they believe the SNP to be unprincipled.

The two examples today,of the confrontational and aggressive attitude of London Labour indicates a lack of maturity on their part.They should be careful.The most recent opinion poll showed:SNP 33%(+15) and Labour 26(-14)for the next general election.The prediction is SNP 23 seats and Labour 21 seats.I don't pay attention to opinion polls but the general and consistent trend should be worraying Labour.They need to grow and listen to voters.

74

John PM,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 13:02:14
Westminster picking fights with the Scottish Government! Isn't the Scotsman against that? Or is it just if it's the other way round?
75

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 22/05/2008 13:03:35
Quite a while ago I must admit I spotted the difficulties that are slowly beginning to arise for those who argue for the status quo or devolution-max. Not really a great achievement, I know, and it did not require too much insight to be able to grasp that in order to argue forcefully they would have to first sacrifice coherence and reality. This is usually the case and we often find that coherence is the first thing to be abandoned in times of trouble and long-term thinking in favour of short-term point-scoring becomes the order of the day. So, out of the window goes coherence as the position of status quo lined up for the debates most recently being centred on fisheries.

The difficulty and it, in my opinion only, is quite a big difficulty. The difficulty lies in the fact that those whose vision for only devolution and no further is their vision is basically one in which Scotland should merely organise itself as a pressure group in Westminster. A sort of organised Scottish Bloc where every now and again the Scotland pressure group should raise its rag-tag head and ask politely if it can get something and then if told no, it should organise all over again, and ask again, then again, then again. This basically is what those who believe in devolution think Scotland should amount to: an organised political pressure group who should make representations to Westminster and then sit by the phone with collective fingers crossed.

But, of course, those of us who believe in independence in Europe are told that we are being a silly bunch. They tell people in Scotland that if Scotland wasn't a pressure group in Westminster then independence would merely mean Scotland would just be a pressure group in Brussels and Strasbourg. They say it's the same idea, different place and so instead of Earl Grey and buttered toast while we wait it would be croissants and coffee instead. Same idea, different place. Yet, remember the first things to be lost when an argument goes awry are co
76

Carmichael, A.,

Scotland 22/05/2008 13:14:04
75 (cont.)
Yet, remember the first things to be lost when an argument goes awry are coherence and reality.

The EU is not something solid and unchanging. The EU does not have a cold, dead hand on the affairs of its member-states. Yes, the EU is a club but it, primarily, is a member's club. The EU is intergovernmental. This intergovernmental EU instituted some supranational elements in order to provide some reference and guidance for members and to act as a referee. If one is a member of the EU's club then forget the EP, forget the EC, don't forget the ECJ, but wait for the Council. Wait for the Council when you can sit down with all your pals, have a chinwag, and get something sorted out over refreshments and the thing to be sorted usually benefits most and for those that it doesn't benefit will eventually ask a favour in return. That is the EU's member's club, ladies and gentleman, and if you don't get invited to the chinwag, in the Council, forget about it. So, quite a different proposition from being a pressure group at Westminster and the difficulty will be in trying to convince people in Scotland that the best course of action is to remain as a rag-tag pressure group.

(mmmm, I'm stopping off at Aldi's on the way home for some croissants, lovely)
77

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 13:24:51
69 Paul W
I do not wish to appear to be negative but I do think that you have to be far more realistic in your assessment of what Scotland has to offer the EU apart from fish stocks.

Energy - total oil and gas production from north sea etc. does now not even meet the needs of the UK. The UK is a net importer of both. The rest of Europe gets its oil on the international markets and its gas from other sources. They therefore have no interest in this energy whether or not it is deemed to be a Scottish or UK resource.

Renewable energy - is their a feasible method of transmitting electricity generated by wind/wave power onto mainland Europe without astronomical costs?

Air and sea space - this is puzzling. Are you saying that if Scotland were not in the EU it would prevent flights and sea travel to other nations. Do Norway, Iceland and Switzerland(flights only of course) do this?

The reality is that it matters little, if anything, to the average person in Europe whether Scotland is in the EU or not in the same way as it matters little to us whether Bulgaria is in or not.

The only part that would concern them is the contribution. At present the UK pays a net £4.7billion per year. When push comes to shove that is the only aspect that would interest them.
78

Neal! Whit? Haud yer Whisht!!,

22/05/2008 13:39:07
Different Subject: Why cannot I comment on Brian Keenans death?

Is there some Religious or Political BIAS in the Scotsman?

For my part it's just another example of somebody getting away with murder, cos that's what he did!!
79

Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 22/05/2008 13:40:14
Grahamski:
I believe that Scotland should break all, but neighbourly, ties with Westminster.

I believe that an independent Scotland should negotiate the terms of entrance to the E.U. wiegh up the pro's and con's - submit these to the Scottish people then hold a referendum on whether to join or not.

I believe an independent Scotland should be a republic.

Now these are my belief's made without any recourse to scurrilouse adjectives on people I've never met and consequently know nothing about other than the manner in which they're reported by a somewhat dubious media.

And do I believe I'll have all my beliefs fulfilled in one? Of course I don't. Every one is a cuase that will have effects. And these effects will have to be acknowledged and their effects managed by negotiation.

All that I ask is that those who negotiate do so from a singular platform of Scotland and its people interest.

We may not win all the battles, but at least let's fight the war knowing what we're fighting for.

Not as mercenaries of a foriegn power banned from the peace table.
80

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 22/05/2008 14:26:06
Most unfair. No wonder the SNP are doing so well in the polls. They are obviously going round the country asking different groups what they can do to make life better for them, then, the crafty dogs, coming up with policies to suit.

Personally I think they are just trying to get people's votes. Damned unfair if you ask me. Never saw that kind of underhand behaviour from Labour and the other 'Put Britain First' parties.
81

Sanny,

Upwey 22/05/2008 14:34:46
This is disgraceful!!! How dare the SNP look after the livelihood of our Scots fishermen. A way of life that Heath and the Tory Westminster worked dammed hard to destroy!! Are we expected to allow the SNP to improve the lot of our fellow Scots?You bet your Sweet Ass we will. It looks like the SNP have just recruited another section of the Scottish Electorate to the Nationalist cause.
82

steveh3,

22/05/2008 14:49:45
Come on Scotland its time to stop westminster raping our resources, we should be picking fights with those take and waste what is ours.
Lets pick more fights with westminster and not stop until we have full control of our future.
How can anyone continue to support the total disregard westminster shows the people of Scotland.
Wake up Scotland, we are being treated like stupid children.
83

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 22/05/2008 15:07:53
#56

The EU did agree to run the Montenegro referendum but they also sated that there had to be a 55% yes vote on at least a 50% turn out. would you go for that?
84

Ananurhing,

22/05/2008 15:40:27
#80 & #81
What's more,........they're doing it deliberately!

To quote a certain old labour soak!
85

mesmiths,

fife 22/05/2008 15:57:06
Have Labour lost it's mind?!!!?!..... Don't answer that.
They are so out of touch now (as are papers who bleat about 'fights picked by the snp') they're moaning when the government sticks of for fishermen and proposes something practical to improve a difficult situation.
They say it's not for Holyrood! If we waited for Westminster we'd be waiting too long.

Those days are gone and in the past they shall remain.
86

Miss H,

22/05/2008 16:00:08
83 I don't think any EU involvement will be necessary. Basically they took on the job to give it legitimacy and negotiated the terms which would be acceptable to Serbia and Montenegro. Scotland is not really in the same position is it? Successive UK Prime Mi