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Gretna hang onto life but the end is nigh

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Published Date: 14 March 2008
By Alan Pattullo
ADMINISTRATOR for Gretna admits fulfilling fixture against Aberdeen is vital but only ten players willing to play due to lack of insurance.
THE theft of 20 pairs of boots from the Gretna dressing room is a mere triviality amid the clubs's current woes, but it is just another frustration for the very people currently wrestling with a decision set to impact greatly on the club's hopes of survival.

Have boots, will travel is a popular phrase, but even then it is not certain the Gretna players will agree to journey north to Aberdeen for this weekend's fixture at Pittodrie. Gretna's future lies with the players who have been cut adrift from the club this week, and effectively rendered redundant. David Elliot, the joint administrator, needs Gretna to play this weekend's scheduled fixture or face further penalties, with the club already reconciled to a ten-point deduction imposed by the Scottish Premier League when administration was officially confirmed on Wednesday.

The ball is in the players' court, and skipper Paul Murray yesterday confirmed they will gather again at Raydale Park to discuss the pros and cons. They will, however, be minus former captain Chris Innes, who was absent from training yesterday. Dundee are in negotiations to sign the centre-half as they seek to strengthen their First Division title bid.

Those who are left at Raydale Park must decide whether there is anything to be gained from playing a fixture that means nothing to them in terms of league position, with Gretna all but relegated. Pride is not even an issue any longer when the very future of the club is at stake.

While Ellliot has asked players to fulfil their fixture at Aberdeen on Saturday the absence of guarantee regarding wages and doubts over insurance money has left with him only ten available players. But Elliot is determined to ensure that these players will have adequate insurance should they agree to help Gretna buy the time they need to make it through another week.

Elliot is determined to give the club a chance of making it through to next weekend's potentially lucrative home clash with Celtic. Costs for the Aberdeen game have been eased, with players willing to travel on the day of the game and a coach offered to the club to transport them north.

"If I am to prevail and get through Saturday, our next match will be a week on Sunday against Celtic and that would be a cash bonus for us and would alleviate some of the problems," said Elliot.

But the situation remains dire. "I am being dragged, kicking and screaming, to the death throes of this club," Elliot added. The players must decide whether it is worth even playing one more game, and facing the prospect of injury.

"Each player is facing a situation where their contract has been breached," he continued. "The players will need to consider their now position. Until 27 March there is the opportunity to move to another club. I can't stand in their way morally, ethically or legally. I was impressed with their loyalty and the way they want to keep the football playing.

"We have a shortage in particular at the goalkeeper position. Out of 17 senior players I have got ten available for Saturday. They are wanting to ensure that they are insured. What I have done is to get my staff to make certain that they are insured. I would treat that as a matter of utmost priority."

Elliot will also hold talks with the Scottish Premier League so they may relax rules which prevented them handing over a £100,000 advance – if Gretna can agree a plan to complete the season. League officials had agreed to pay the cash in four weekly instalments but a clause forbids them to do so when a club falls into administration.

"They have also impressed upon me the integrity of the league and the integrity of the sport," said Elliot. "What they mean is that if we were to field a 'youth team' it could affect the goal difference between Rangers and Celtic. Therefore I am mindful that we need to put out a strong senior team and that is what I am struggling to do."

Elliot is battling to keep the club going in the hope of finding a new Brooks Mileson, who bankrolled the club until falling ill with a brain infection last month. Elliot made another plea to Mileson's son Craig, Gretna's operations director, to continue the funding which has amounted to around £8million.

"Without wishing to be unkind I have said to him I have no idea how seriously ill his father is, but I really feel he needs to be made aware the club he has spent so much time and money on is likely to be closed and if he wants to do something he has to do it now," explained Elliot. "Craig returned from the family home and there is no financial commitment coming from Mr Mileson."

Elliot revealed "two or three" parties had expressed interest in the club. Football agent Paul Davies wants to look at the books to determine whether he and partners Hume International could fund the club.

"That's why I would like to get through the game on Saturday and explore those opportunities," he said. "What they don't know is the extent of the problem and what they would be – and I use the term loosely – investing in."

GRETNA

1946: Gretna form and start in Dumfries Junior League.

1947: Move to Carlisle and District League.

1982: Admitted to English Northern League.

1991: Reach FA Cup first round. Draw 0-0 at home to Rochdale but lose replay 3-1.

1993: May – Unsuccessfully apply for Scottish Football League membership. November – Beaten 3-2 at Bolton in FA Cup first round.

1999: Fail in second SFL bid.

2002: Elected to SFL after the demise of Clydebank.

2003: Benefactor Brooks Mileson joins the club.

2005: Promoted from the Third Division, setting new points record with 98.

2006: 25 March – Win promotion to First Division.

13 May – Beaten 4-2 in penalty shoot-out by Hearts in Scottish Cup final after 1-1 draw after extra time.

August – Lose 7-3 on aggregate to Derry City in the Uefa Cup.

2007: 7 March – Manager Rowan Alexander given leave from the club due to illness. 28 April – Gretna win title and promotion to the SPL with a last-gasp 3-2 victory against Ross County on the last day of the season.

18 July – Davie Irons appointed head coach.

2008: 12 February – Club confirms Mileson has been admitted to hospital, with tests revealing he is suffering from a brain infection.

18 February – It emerges players and staff have not been paid.

19 February – Irons and his assistant Derek Collins resign and join First Division Morton. Director of football Mick Wadsworth takes over as caretaker manager.

21 February – Mileson is released from hospital.

12 March – Club enter administration. Administrator David Elliot warns Gretna have to find £30,000 or the club will cease to exist.

13 March – Deadline extended but Elliot claims the club's position has "deteriorated" overnight. Players free to leave Gretna as contracts have been breached.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 14 March 2008 12:47 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Gretna FC
 
1

SAME RULES APPLY !!!,

14/03/2008 00:21:31
They shoot horses don't they?
2

Anglo Jambo,

Chorley 14/03/2008 01:00:08
For Gretna to travel to Aberdeen in the morning on a coach then play a game same afternoon with ten men is a complete farce. SPL know how bad the situation is and come up with the cash for them to have a bit of dignity or ask Aberdeen to postpone the game. SPL could even loan cash to the administrator based on the Celtic match where it is expected there will be a capacity crowd. Or the administrator should put a bullet in Gretna head now.
3

walter,

14/03/2008 01:08:19
These players were willing to jump on the bandwagon, the club is sitting at the bottom of the league due to these players meaning the wheels are falling of the bandwagon so where is their loyalty.
I hope that these players the other spl clubs and football supporters through out Scotland will prevent Gretna disappearing from existence and making it through to the end of the season thus allowing the SFA dropping them 2 leagues where they can survive..
4

Darling On Severn,

In Garys Arms 14/03/2008 01:23:28
Well if 50% of all marriages end in divorce it looks like 50% of all football clubs end in foreclosure.
5

jamtart,

Beechboro 14/03/2008 01:38:10
#3 If your employer stopped paying you would you still turn up at work and show your loyalty or are you just loyal to your giro.Numpty.
P.S. Are you a hibs supporter by any chance.
6

USA Hibee,

brandon 14/03/2008 03:07:56
#5
You are the Numpty and i am a Hibs supporter.
I think your just a wee bit envious that a few people care what happens to Gretna and nobody gies a monkeys about the Hertz.
GGTTH
7

Cammy,

Craigleith 14/03/2008 05:06:21
The SFA/SPL are the ones responsible for getting us all rapped up in this mess. It's going to turn the season on it's head and makes us all a huge joke in world football

Why were the financial requirements not strict enough to ensure that all clubs had the resources in place required to complete the season.

No stadium, no fans and one bloke with a cheque book paying on a week to week basis. Who looked at all that and said "yeah no problem, come on up to the SPL".

Professional clowns, get your coats guys.......
8

Princess Kevin,

Partick, Glasgow 14/03/2008 06:07:46
#6 Hi sweetie, nice post, i agree
Do you live in the USA? I have a friend there. His name is Craig, do you know him?
9

scorchio,

West of the Pecos 14/03/2008 07:36:28
All of us knew this Gretna thing would grind to a halt one day, it's just a shame that it has to be this way, and with all the flak it's going to cause.
The whole episode has been a real eye opener in many ways.
It has shown how mediocre Scottish football really is, when a guy with a few bob, can muster together a dozen or so, "journeymen", and speed through the divisions, and almost win a major trophy.
What's required now, is for the club to be wound up, and the S.L. to nullify all Gretna's league results.
Some will benefit, and some will lose out, but that's just the way it is.
To let them carry on is folly, there's no way the guys who will play for them, can possibly apply themselves and let's not mince about and think they could.
10

Phil Lawrence,

Tallinn 14/03/2008 07:50:42
I do not know how often in the past week or so I have read the rubbish about Gretna being elected to the SFL following the demise of Clydebank. What short memories everyone has. It was Airdrieonians that went out of business. Gretna were elected to replace that failed club. It was Jim Ballantyne who then bought Clydebank, moved that club to Airdrie and restyled it as Airdrie United.
11

Tracy C,

Aberdeen 14/03/2008 08:11:07
If they don't play against Aberdeen on Saturday then they shouldn't be allowed to play the "lucrative" game with Celtic either.

Why should Aberdeen lose £50k for them to bankroll it in the following weekend??? Assuming of course that the Fir Park pitch will make it!
12

Anglo Jambo,

Chorley 14/03/2008 08:19:15
3* 5*

I think what 3 possibly means is the football bodies should help Gretna to fulfil their fixtures in a dignified way and with a full team that includes paying their wages. I know it will be better for Hibs if this happens, and it will affect Hearts. I do also see that Hibs won the points and Hearts dropped them and that is not Hibs fault At the end of the day we will have to wait and see.

7* I agree with you. Gretna shouldn't have been promoted in first place, but it is sad that a club has to end this way. I still think there are too many clubs in Scottish senior football anyway. It would be good for Gretna if they were allowed to find their own level again now they don't have the Mileson dough. They could even make a good feeder club. They were already playing in English football and it seems to me Scotland was the easier option.

9*
There will always be different points of views on a matter such as this. Everyone has a good point. Well most do anyway. You too make a good point. As a Hearts fan it will suit us if they go, but we did drop points to them and to be fair to Hibs they didn't. Now that I have thought about it I would like to see Gretna finish their fixtures with a full side and our final position will be a true reflection on season

13

BuddieDumfries,

Dumfries 14/03/2008 08:22:29
#6 Get real no one likes Grotna and no one will care if they go bust! No fans, no stadium and now no "rich" sugar daddy!
14

Political Exile,

Penny Lane 14/03/2008 08:23:59
Let's imagine the same article in a couple of years or less!

For Gretna read HOMFC.

For Mileson read Romanov.

All HOMFC supporters should read and digest this article because it may come back on you!
15

Huntlylad,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 08:24:45
The solution is very simple. Its all over, Gretna should be removed from the league now and all previous points deducted and the league carry on with 9 teams. The SPL should face up to the international embarrassment now, but equally gain respect by dealing with this issue firmly, now. After the season has finished, the SPL and SFA need to face up to some realities. Rangers & Celtic are no doubt actively considering how to exit Scotland since clubs of their international potential cannot carry on working in a day to day situation like this. I could go on, but even Aberdeen couldn't fill thier stadium for the visit of Celtic last week in the Cup. Most of the SPL fixtures are played in front of half empty stadiums. Unacceptable. Scottish football needs a significant rethink.
16

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 08:32:35
I've said all this before in the last couple of days, but ultimately scottish football as a whole has two choices:
1. Rally round Gretna, say "we don't want any football team to go out of business" and do everything it can to stop this club folding. Loan them enough players to see them through the season, fans of all clubs go to the games, whatever we can do to help.
2. Sit back, say "ha! I knew it wouldn't last, serves you right", and count up how many points we'll get back from this.
Personally, I find the latter ever so slightly distasteful. Maybe that's just me.

By the way, anyone know what UEFA make of all this? As a country, Scotland has 2 Champions League spots and 2 UEFA Cup spots. For a 12 team top division, where the bottom club can't even finish it's season. Seems a lot to me...
17

Braes of Glenmiller,

Examining the League Table 14/03/2008 08:38:05
#15.....we've had 12 teams in the top division for a few years now.....even though is seems like 10 because the sectarian Brothers Grimmm win almost everything.

Why not just kill off Gretna and leave the points already earned? As fair as taking them away or adding them to other teams tallies. Give everyone who hasn't played Gretna for the third time 2 points rather than 3. Don't think it will make much difference to the table then.
18

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 08:52:04
I cant believe this is still going and some are trying to think up alternativesor guess other possibilities when it has already been CONFIRMED last night that all points earned against Gretna WILL be expunged.

#17
It would still be unfair and could still affect the outcome of the table.
Give celtic 2 points? what if they lose the league by one point, Celtic gretna is a game you would expect Celtic to win. The only fait way if Gretna cannot fulfil their fixtures is expunging all their points from each team. You cant add pints for games you wont play. And at the end of the day all it means is each teams position and points at the end of the season is then based on their results against every other team, where they would have played them an equal amount of time/ Yes it seems unfair for teams like Hibs and Motherwell, but it is the only course of action that wouldnt lead to possible legal action from other teamsimagine missing out on a top 6 because you had only been given 2 points for a game you might have won ensuring a club a top 6, the money they would lose out on etc. Impossible to leave the points as is when there are still games to go, and either dish out points freely or not.

Another thing if Hibs and Motherwell are so bothered why dont they bail out Gretna at last until the split, 100,000 each should be enough, they'll make more from european qualification/gate receipts/and final position prize money.
19

Jambo 58,

14/03/2008 08:53:37
#11
Tracy. You're spot on.

#14
Yes you are right, and I'm sure most of us Hearts fans will feel the same, although hopefully with our fan base, we would have a better chance of raising enough funds to survive.
20

Anglo Jambo,

Chorley 14/03/2008 08:54:13
Where do those people get off comparing Hearts to Gretna, don;t they have anything worth contributing.

15*

Although the SPL would be reduced to 11 clubs you have a good point and I have said before there are too many clubs for too few supporters. It is not the first time I have said this. What happens a club goes out of business comes back under a new name and SFL say welcome aboard nice to have you back. It is now time to clubs to look at amalgamation, which means fewer grounds to use so can be sold off, also less grounds to administer, fewer players so maybe better quality. Before, all a man had on a Saturday afternoon was the football now he has more to do. We will always get the true football fan going through turnstyles and it doesn't matter if it is Alloa and Stirling United or Lanarkshire. Don't forget Inverness Caley thistle were too clubs amalgamated and see what they have achieved.
21

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 08:55:46
#18 Indeed. It's blatantly clear from the SPL rules what happens:
- no relegation
- points can be expunged.
No mention of of making up results for the remainder of the season, and the points will have to be expunged as teams have played Gretna a different number of times. It's the only solution that is both fair and within the rules set out by the SPL.
But hey, if there's straws to be grapsed at...
22

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 08:58:04
By the way, until a couple of days ago, I'd never seen the word "expunge" or any of it's derivations on this site. Now it's all over the place! Regardless of the final outcome of this, it's certainly improved all our vocabularies...
23

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 09:03:34
#22
For some desperate Hibs fans all it has done is improve there continued drivel about it will be Hearts next. Very sad indeed that they have to stoop so low to score points from their rivals on the back of something so terrible reagrding a lot of people being made unemployed, but I suppose being Hibs fans the usual weekly giro is a norm for them.

Just shows how low and thoughtless some people can go and clearly shows them for what they really are.
24

Jambo 58,

14/03/2008 09:05:58
#20
what else does a man have to do of a Saturday aftrenoon, if not the footbal ??
25

,

14/03/2008 09:06:04
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26

,

14/03/2008 09:06:04
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27

,

14/03/2008 09:06:08
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28

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 09:06:58
#15
Huntlylad,

I take it you didnt see the news last week RE. Celtic and Rangers will be blocked by UEFA & FIFA from ever entering into the English league.Thats to say IF the English league ever actually wanted them.
29

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 09:09:08
#27
So do i they might still be in the 2nd division and operating at a level they could afford, and none of this nonsense would have happened
30

Mikee,

14/03/2008 09:14:23
#15: "Rangers & Celtic are no doubt actively considering how to exit Scotland since clubs of their international potential cannot carry on working in a day to day situation like this"

Methinks you should look a little deeper before making such throwaway tabloid statements. International potential is a classic bullshit marketing term which the OF freely apply to themselves. They have no future without the rest of the SPL and they know it - but have to continue with the posturing of being 'too big for Scotland'. If the SPL was structured properly ie the OF were forced to return proper amounts of their vast profits to the grass roots of the game then the gap caused by this current imbalance would close, enablling greater competition and effectively making the OF stronger.

Let's start at the obvious place with a return to both clubs receiving a portion of the gate home or away. Why not - do both teams not perform in the same game? Then the OF punters may travel to the away games they currently watch for free in the pub - and the 'provincial' clubs will begin to gain a foothold with a percentage of the receipts at Ibrox & Parkhead.
31

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 09:24:12
#30
Couldnt agree with you more. For years/decades the OF have just taken taken taken and continue to do so from Scottish football and other clubs, like a parasite eating away at everything, They so enveloped in their own selves they cant see the wider picture, as you say if they made it a more even playing field with regards to money etc, by returning some of those vast profits they make from TV deals back into Scottish football the standard of other teams would improve making it more competition which would benefit the OF, but as has been proven though the OF while they talk about wanting more competition they cant handle more competition, neither can their favourite west coast media friends and buddies at the SFA, everytime a challenge looks like it might come along everything in their power is done to thwart it, they have things on easy street qualifying 1/2 every year and having a shot at the CL,it will kill them to have another team take their place and they lost out on the 10million or so.

They have 2 options either help out Scottish football and other clubs by putting in some of that wealth they earn from Tv deals etc, or face up to the fact this is life for them and will probably never improve or go anywhere.
32

GersFanOfFitba,

14/03/2008 09:31:39
I'd suggest that the players' loyalty isn't in question, but the question of insurance would loom large in a players' thoughts. Surely, if they were to get injured long-term at this time, they'd pretty much be screwed. I don't blame 'em, to be honest......

#31. I don't believe that what you're saying is the truth. For years and years, the smaller clubs of the SPL have NOT been willing to take away their two home games revenue against the OF.

That could be argued as the realistic "parasitic" behaviour of other smaller clubs. The difference is that we don't complain about it: we just get on with being a big club!

And that's what makes the difference between us and you -- That, and having a decent owner.....! mua ha ha ha ha ha ha! (Champions' League in five years? Don't make me laugh!)
33

Mikee,

14/03/2008 09:38:15
#32

Completely missed /avoided the point and turned a serious point into a slagging match - you wouldn't be a Rangers fan by any cahnce?

If all home gates were shared as I suggested then the 'smaller clubs' as you put it would be financially free to give up their seciond OF home gate of the season, and we could all rid ourselves of the pointless split. Do you really think the other clubs have a choice over income generators? Why have so many gone to the wall / into administration then? It's all down to the current financial imbalance which can be remedied with a bit of bravery from the SPL at a time when another club is dying.
34

Jealousy,jealousy,

14/03/2008 09:50:23
#33

You all blame the Old Firm while missing out the fact that the fans of the smaller clubs mostly have pathetic attendances. Fill your grounds and turn out for your team week in week out rather than harping on about the big bad Old Firm. Every time a smaller club makes a semi or final they suddenly have an extra10-15,000 fans. And you call us glory hunters.
Hibs for example have taken in millions and by all accounts have little or no debt. Why no investment in the team? Football is a business not a charity.
35

We love fitba,

14/03/2008 09:56:03
#16 GrahamL,

You say fans could rally round Gretna, to help them survive, but rally round what, exactly? There is nothing of substance to be saved... it's telling that this issue has been the main topic of discussion on here all week, and still not a single post from a Gretna fan. If their few hundred supporters can't be troubled to "rally round" the club, why should anyone else?

Sad to say, because it's not nice to see a club go bust, but the kindest thing to do would be to put Gretna out of its misery now. The staff will all be anxious, but their jobs have gone and they might as well start looking for new employment as soon as they can. I don't think any of the "interested parties" will come good - at least not in terms of preserving Gretna as a professional football club.
36

We love fitba,

14/03/2008 09:59:45
#34 Jealousy, jealousy,

Excuse me for asking, but where are you from? Because if you're not from Glasgow, then you are a perfect illustration of the problem - all Scottish football clubs are working hard to improve attendances, but are hampered in their efforts when local people would rather wear a replica Old Firm jersey and watch matches in the pub than support their local team.

So, Govan or Glasgow East End, eh? Because otherwise, yes, you are a Glory Hunter.
37

Lenny,

14/03/2008 10:00:58
Gorgies Finest

Good Morning mate. Serious question. Do you honestly think you would be of the same attitude if it was the other way round and Hibs were going to gain point on Hearts?

I'm not saying it will happen or that but SHOULD Hearts find themselves in a sililar situation I hope they dont expect to receive sympathy from anyone else.
38

CharlieCarlisle,

Carlisle 14/03/2008 10:02:46
Gretna FC owes a lot of money including to my small company. Brooks Mileson should pay his debts before walking away. This way at least he can hold his head up high when he is driving around in his 90,000 pound car.
39

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 10:02:48
#32
Big club maybe in Scotland but be realistic none of you could never compete with the real BIG teams in the CL. which is what its all about, if you had a harder league in Scotland you would improve and maybe you might just eventually have a good shout at the CL, it wouldnt happen overnight.

Scottish football as a whole needs totally restructured from the grass routes level upwards, stop this stupid split the only country in the world where a team finnishing 6th can have less points than a team finnishing 7th (hibs situation a few years back)

one system that would work is a bit like the american one where the league buys the players for the clubs and allocates them, the clubs all contribute to the transfer system buy paying the league and they buy maybe 2 or 3 players a season for each club and allocate them based on what wages the club can afford/sustain, eg you wouldnt have a 30k a week player playing at say ICT or motherwell but easily at Rangers or celtic. also cut down the foreigner rule only 4 overseas players allowed in the match day squad, unless the player has come up through the youth ranks from within this country. All gate monies halfed between both teams playing that day. A proper Soccer full time football academy built where those kids good enough live at the academy like a boarding scholl, they do their school work but also learn the game and play and train every day, Grants can be issued to families on lower incomes etc so all kids no matter what their background/circumstances can have that chance if their good enough.
40

Lion-O "Lord Of The ThunderCats,

14/03/2008 10:03:12
If I was a Gretna player I wouldn't play against Aberdeen without insurance - unless Zander Diamond is not playing in which case I might be able to last 90 minutes without being injured.

Seems a bit distasteful that Aberdeen should have to lose income from a home game to help out Gretna and that Celtic fans are expected to sell out Fir Park to bail them out as well.

Not as distasteful though as fans of other SPL teams mumping and moaning about the right and wrongs of points being removed and how it affects their team. Their team will still be in business next month after all.
41

GersFanOfFitba,

14/03/2008 10:04:23
I probably did miss the point, to be honest: but I just don't like hearts all that much, and so it was easy to get a wee dig in, if I'm honest. :)

I don't know about the sharing of gates thing. I think that it would be sending out the wrong message, and, as it is, there's a general perception amongst sections fans of Rangers and Celtic that other clubs are hanging on our coat-tails, and this would just make it worse!

I'll repeat what I said before, though. Gretna should NOT have been given access to the SPL. They DID NOT have the correct ground requirements, and that, on it's own, should have been enough to prevent this situation.....
42

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 10:07:27
#35 Not quite sure on what you're basing your assertion that the Gretna fans aren't rallying round the club? The fact that there haven't been any posts from gretna fans on this website?
We know they don't have an SPL size fan base, but Div 2? Div 3? Easily. That's their level and they should be allowed to fall back to it. Unfortunately thats looking increasingly unlikely. They don't have a ground of their own any more, thanks to the SPLs ridiculous decision to let them in in the first place. That may be the final nail, they were allowed in when they weren't ready, and had to start work in upgrading their ground. They got halfway through and Mileson ran out of money, so they really have nowhere to play. That's the SPLs fault. And the SPL shouldn't be sitting back and letting them go out of business. You may see the SPL as a boardroom full of faceless bureaucrats or it may be an amalgamation of all the clubs in the division. But for everyone to sit back and wash their hands of it is a disgrace. A show that we, as football fans, care about it must count for something. Mustn't it?
43

ERIN GO BRAGH,

edinburgh 14/03/2008 10:08:53
#23 If you're Gorgie's finest, god help the rest of the unwashed !

44

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 10:10:52
#37
Mornin Lenny Hows you m8?

Im not saying the point deduction is going to be fair yes i would feel aggrieved by it like you guys do i understand that, but it is really the only answer, out of anything possible it is the "Fairest" way. Its more unfair to start going awarding points and goals for games that wouldnt take place that openes doors to legal implications should a team lose out based on a result being forecast that never took place. Things cant be left as is, as there are still games to go in which clubs could earn points and goals which could affect the league standing and their positions. So really a totally point deduction is the only solution.

And i certaonly wouldnt be expecting sympathy or help from any other fans if it was Hearts m8, least of all Hibs fans, i think we all know where Hibs fans stand on that issue, what they dont realise is both edinburgh clubs need each other equally. I fir one would hate to see hibs go down the swany
45

Jealousy,jealousy,

14/03/2008 10:14:07
#36 We love fitba

Have lived outwith Glasgow for a few years but my family is from Jura Street which if you know Glasgow is in Craigton. You can see Ibrox from my Grandpa's window. Hope i pass your strict guidelines in who is allowed to follow what team.
I do see your point re fans outwith Glasgow but that doesnt change the fact that more fans DO turn out for the bigger occasions which proves they do exist. They choose not to turn out.

46

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 10:17:02
#45
Yes your right, but your pop at fill your own grounds cannot be put in the direction of Hearts 3 years running we have filled our ground each match, and as you know have reduced the OF's ticket allocation accordingly to accomodate oour OWN fans, if we could get away with it you wouldnt get any tickets and we would still fill the ground so saying we need you to turn up for the money aspect isnt true
47

Mikee,

14/03/2008 10:17:55
#36 - spot on.
#45 'Jealousy': Try some of the following for reasons why fans don't turn out.

Buses travelling from places like Keith & Huntly to Ibrox/Parkhead every other week - what is that all about? Dare I say glory hunting dressed up as pseudo-religion (how many are at church/chapel on a sunday?). If it's about watching SPL football, then why not travel to Aberdeen or Inverness which I agree suffer pathetic crowds based on their potential 'catchment' areas.

The other factor here is cost of attending games. You can watch a Premiership game at the likes of Fulham for around £30, whereas we are continually fleeced to the tune of mid-high £20's for SPL fodder. Irrespective of how good the OF think they are they're not a patch on what's on offer down south for virtually the same price. Drop the prices, halve the gate money & watch the fans (gradually) return.
48

Lenny,

14/03/2008 10:24:37
Im good GF, glad its Friday....

Mmm, I'm thinking that you would be saying slightly different things if Hearts were sitting 5th but I will leave it at that ; )

I will say it again though, points will not be deducted. And I will come on and say to you and Vic etc that I 'told you so'. Likewise, I will hold my hands up if wrong.

I wouldnt want Hearts to go out of business either, have said that many times. But I really wouldnt feel sorry for many of the Hearts fans. Jambos seem to be the only ones on here virtually demanding that points are deducted. To say this is nothing to do with 'self-interest' would be foolish. A bit lacking in class imo.
49

We love fitba,

14/03/2008 10:29:35
#42 GrahamL,

Ok, let's put it another way... any evidence that Gretna fans are doing anything to save their club? In these days of online communication it's easy to make some noise if you try hard enough, but personally I've not heard a peep.

I do agree with you, though, that the SPL did not scrutinise Gretna's situation enough. However, the talk this time last year was all about the "fairytale" and how the nasty SPL surely had to find a way to let plucky l'il Gretna live the dream. If they had refused them entry to the SPL, the vitriol would have been deafening. So I have some sympathy for the administrators on this point. People like Chick Young are now saying it was obvious that the Gretna story would end this way - well they weren't saying that 12 months ago!
50

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 10:32:15
Lenny It has been said by the SPL and was broadcast only last night by the BBC that IF gretna do go to the wall points deduction WILL happen, its not a case of talking about probably or thinking or other scenarios anymore it has been confirmed this will happen. So talking about the points deduction is quite relevant.

I said yesterday i would prefer Gretna to fulfil their fixtures I would prefer they dont go out of business nt because i give a monkeys about the club but i do feel sorry for the employees that will lose theor jobs through no fault of their own.And im not the only Hearts fan to say that a few others did as well. Of course we will have our banter and jobes at hibs fans IF they fold and the points are then deducted but would you expect anything less from your rivals, especially after the seson we have had and the amount of constant jibes and drivel we have put up with from SOME not all hibs fans. If they can give it out they should be man enough to take it back
51

Jealousy,jealousy,

14/03/2008 10:37:33
#47

As i said earlier i do see your point re fans travelling from outwith Glasgow but remember a lot of these people have family links to Glasgow even if it is from 1 or 2 generations ago. Example - Your Grandfather is from Govan/Parkhead but moves to Huntly. Brings up his son (your dad) to support Rangers/Celtic, he brings you up to do the same. So you then support the Old Firm never having lived in Glasgow. I dont see this as gloryhunting. (no doubt some are though)
I agree re the cost of football but im far from loaded and still purchase my book every year. Its about your willingness to commit. As i stated thousands more turn out for big games so why cant they do it week in week out?
Just as an extra point i dont agree the Premiership is great quality outwith the top four. The UEFA cup results back this up. Wigan v Reading? Id rather watch Hibs v Hearts anyday.
52

amca,

glasgow mostly 14/03/2008 10:42:47
SPl are concerned about the integrity of the league, oh really?
Where was this concern when Rangers were permitted a free week prior to a Euro tie?
Where is the concern for integrity of the league when there is even consideration of postponing the Aberdeen game in order to allow a big pay day for Gretna next week against Celtic?
And the game against Celtic is only a way of finding some money to pay debts which may not be enough to keep Gretna afloat for the rest of the season ...let Gretna sink and stop this emotional blackmail of layers who have not been paid and probably will never be paid.
53

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 10:44:09
#49 That may be true, it saddens me to see some people almost rejoicing in this though. There must be a moral in here somewhere:
"Don't reach for the stars, because if you don't make it we'll stand round and laugh at the wreckage"
This is a real shame, a club is in danger of going out of business, and folk are squabbling over whether it should be allowed to change their "very poor" season into simply a "poor" one. Says alot about some peoples priorities.
Gretna went too far, too soon. They don't deserve this, what few fans they have don't deserve this, the players don't deserve this, their staff don't deserve this and the small businesses owed money by the club don't deserve this.
54

Lenny,

14/03/2008 10:50:35
# 50

Thats my point though GF, I think a rescue package or something will be put together anyway.

FWIW, they are a joke of a club anyway and I wont be sorry to see them go. should never have been in the league in the first place. If they were replaced by Huntly or Spartans or the like it would only be of benefit to the League.

But to discipline clubs becouse they have beaten a club and to award teams that have failed to win is quite simply farcical. What about bookings, suspensions, win bonuses etc accured during these games. Not to mention the money the likes of myself and you will have spent on attending these games. To say this is the fairest way is a joke imo and is clearly looking out for your own interests.
55

Grierson_Green,

leith 14/03/2008 11:04:37
Surely finance will be in place to fulfil their fixtures until the split - its only 22 days away. When the split occurs it doesn't matter if they fold (hopefully they don't) as the top 6 are in place. The bottom 5 just play 4 instead of 5 meaningless games. Surely the SPL have enough money to help out, if not they are in a pretty bad state of affairs.
56

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 11:11:53
Lenny not once have i said it is fair, and have admitted i would feel aggrieved as well in your position, however out of the only other alternatives it is the fairest and only one where legal issues cannot be raised as that is the rules which all clubs have signed up to. Its got nothing to do with looking out for my own position or not, Instead of looking to Hearts fans etc as a way of venting your disapointment and anger turn it on the SPL who are the real culprits that have caused this situation to happen.
57

Fast_Eddie,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:13:28
#53 - What a load of sanctimonious claptrap.

"Says alot(sic)about some peoples priorities"- aye, it does! The effect that the demise of some poorly-run pub team is going to have on the destiny of my comparatively well-run club is my priority, and I make no bones about it. As far as I'm concerned, Gretna can bolt - the players and staff will move on, they always do, the fans will be largely unaffected in that there will no doubt still be a shan wee team playing at Raedale Park for the rest of time. It just won't be playing in the SPL, where the club (not that group of players per se, they earned the sporting right admittedly) never belonged in it's current form.

For my money, the SPL and Mr Mileson are to blame here- if the League had employed the same inflexibility as shown before with Falkirk and ICT in terms of infrastructure requirments as a pre-requisite to promotion, perhaps Gretna's progression *might* have become sustainable. Mileson is ill, and I hope he recovers, but he too caused all of this by chucking coin at the team without making any attempt to plan for the future, as evidenced by his failure to put the neccesary contingency plans in place to allow wages to be paid in his absence.

A harsh lesson learned, but I hope there is less "fairytale story" garbage next time someone artifically accelerates a club through the leagues in such a fashion. There is absolutely nothing romantic about it, as this episode so clearly shows.
58

'Chopper',

Norwich, "a fine city" ......... full of inbreds! 14/03/2008 11:20:41
The more I think about it the more I feel that Gretna should perhaps seek a voluntary 'demotion' and start afresh in the 3rd Division with their youth team. If they're so broke that they can't afford even knackered old pros in the 1st Division and are forced to play their kids they're going to be relegated again, and again, so why not bite the bullet and give the lads at least a fighting chance in a Division that's the poorest in terms of standards, finance and attendances.

If they did and the tables stayed as they are this is how it would work:

SPL
Relegated - Gretna

Division 1
Promoted [to SPL] - Hamilton
Relegated [to 2nd Division] - Stirling

Division 2
Promoted [to 1st Division] - Ross County
Relegated - [to 3rd Division] None

Division 3
Promoted [to 2nd Division] - East Fife (replaced by Gretna).

Would they attract any fans playing in the 3rd Division? Bear in mind that if every person in Gretna, yes, EVERY person, went to their home games they'd only get a 2,705 crowd! Their 'home' game at Fir Park against Dundee United a week or so ago attracted a total of just 501 paying fans, setting a new record low attendance at an SPL match! This number was also lower than the lowest attendance in the Scottish First Division this season to date!!

The average attendances for Third Division clubs for season 2006/07 were as follows:

Arbroath 730
Dumbarton 709
Queen's Park 590
Berwick Rangers 565
East Fife 546
Montrose 463
Stenhousemuir 461
Albion Rovers 431
Elgin City 423
East Stirlingshire 307
59

Lenny,

14/03/2008 11:28:32
GF

Wouldnt allowing a 1-0 win to the other team for the fixtures left be fairer?

And I DO 100% blame the SPL. ITs just that it is ONLY Jambos who seem to be demanding points being taken off and lapping it up.
60

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 11:30:14
#57 "sanctimonious claptrap" Thanks very much! I try my best.

To be honest, if you're more concerned about your "well-run club"'s season than other peoples livelihoods thats your look out.
If your employer went out of business, I'm sure you wouldn't expect any sympathy from the general public either.
61

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 11:31:03
#59

It shows how much you know about Hearts and Hibs to make a sweeping statement regarding club size and potential, Both Edinburgh clubs easily have a far bigger fan base and earning potential than any other team outwith the SPL. I agree about the proper management etc and if both clubs had a little more insight and ambition there would be 4 clubs challenging for the league not just 2 every year.
62

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 11:35:56
#60 Lenny

OK now you tell me how that can be fair? not having a go just want to hear your honest opinion, on how you would deal with a situation where Celtic and rangers finnish on level points but rangers win the league by 1 goal, be honest now would you expect celtic to win by just 1 goal against gretna? or even reverse the scenario celtic win the league by a point how would you know 100% celtic maybe wouldnt have only drawn againdt gretna, thats just an example between the OF those scenarios could affect the others the same way. Doing it the way you suggest opens doors to legal and financial problems, on clubs missing out based on hypethetical results and goal differances. You see where im coming from with regards to that?
63

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 11:39:20
#65

Its that sort of ignorant and arrogant attitude that has most people detesting the OF and that kind of attitude that has destroyed scottih football. being a big team does not solely consist of winning trophies son, there are many other factors to take into consideration. You clearly dont have the intellect to work that out with your blinkered attitude.
64

Mikee,

14/03/2008 11:40:11
Jealousy

Don't agree with your view of the Premiership. I've watched several games 'in the flesh' as opposed to on TV and what I'm talking about is the quality of player and the football vs the stuff I regularly pay to watch up here. Believe me the quality outwith the top four is substantially better than anything we have in Scotland - OF included. I don't necessarily agree we should compare ourselves directly with what is probably the best league in Europe just now, but the cost comparison is fair.

Wigan v Reading are both better teams than the OF in terms of player quality. And remember it's not a derby. Try any London derby for quality and I'm sure you'd swap Hearts v Hibs.

As for the logic of UEFA cup results bearing that out;

1. This is the first time in how many years since Rangers travelled this far in Europe?

2. Let's not forget Rangers parachuted into the competition hence had less games to play.

3. Wait till you get a real team like Fiorentina or PSV in the next round!
65

Lenny,

14/03/2008 11:43:58
Yes GF I totally see where you are coming from. But taking points away punishes teams for doing well. Motherwell could lose out on Europe becouse they have beaten Gretna 3 times and Dun Utd havn't. That doesnt seem fair to me at all. And taking the points away STILL affects the Old Firm anyway. So imo, awarding 1 nil wins would seem fairer. And Im looking at the bigger picture, not just from a Hibs point of view.

Ach its all ifs and buts, it wont happen anyway. Im telling you, a rescue package will be put in place.
66

Oor_Wullie,

ma_empty_bucket 14/03/2008 11:44:12
Oh, stick a fork in em already. No, seriously. The number of sadomasochists willing to chuck their hard-earned into the fan and futureless financial black hole formerly known as Gretna has to be limited in the extreme. And the less said about some of their current "suitors", the better.

They club either goes out of existence now, or manana, C’est la vie - as the old saying goes, only two things certain and life and looks like both of em are knocking impatiently at Gretnas door. At least they had a brief but bright Icarus Flight to remember them by tho, high time East Stirling and the rest of the numerous waste of coupon spaces followed them into the oblivion of the Third Lanark Rememberance League, an organisation to which a fair proportion of our 40 or 50 odd senior clubs rightfully belong if were being honest.
67

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 11:45:23
#69
Mikee
While i probably agree with most your points Werder bremen are a good side, and doing well, not sure of their position but its high anyway in what is a far superior league than the SPL i think Rangers pulled of a good overall result there.
68

Fast_Eddie,

Edinburgh 14/03/2008 11:51:12
I've got heehaw sympathy for the people at Gretna. They were happy to take the money from Mileson without ever considering where it was coming from and how it could be sustained. Now the cash has stopped, nearly all of those players and coaching staff will pack up their boots and shimmy off to other clubs like the mercenaries they are, and who can blame them? I gather the captain Innes is already in talks with Dundee.

So perhaps a handful of admin folk might get the bullet, and that's a shame, but it happens. They too were happy to operate in a risky but lucrative work environment. With high reward comes high risk, fact of life.

So let's not make this about a tealady losing her part-time job, because if you want to get your knickers in a twist about redundancy, there are better places to start. It's about irresponsible attitudes to risk on the part of Mileson and the SPL, and the fall-out wreaked upon other clubs and businesses by those attitudes.

69

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 12:00:53
#74 "a risky but lucrative work environment. With high reward comes high risk, fact of life"
True. But these guys weren't working the rigs, or deep sea diving. We're talking about the architects who designed the new stadium who - I believe - have not been paid, and yes - if you like - the tea lady etc. I severly doubt any of these guys asked for extra money because they didn't believe Milesons business plan was sustainable. You no doubt blame them for that, I don't. There's the difference.
70

Lenny,

14/03/2008 12:08:57
Gorgies Finest

The Aberdeen Gretna game is on. I wouldnt be counting those points yet mate....
71

jambop,

14/03/2008 12:11:02
Quite interesting looking at the posts about what is and is not fair with regards to points all gained in games against Gretna. For what its worth the way I see it fairness is only what is perceived by the individual and what is at stake for them. The only practical way to deal with the situation is to remove the points and Gretna from the leaque table.
72

Gorgie's Finest,

14/03/2008 12:19:23
#78

Good stuff im happy they managed to find a playing squad, now they only have to come up with £350,000 for the Inland revenue on monday at court
73

Osama Bin Liner,

edinburgh 14/03/2008 12:36:12
#18 and 21 - The only fair way to deal with this is not by expunging all points as each team will have experienced different consequences as a result of playing Gretna. Apart from the intangibles, there are injuries and bookings which may lead to suspensions.

A better solution would be give every team 3 points for each fixture in the 3 round of matches. Whilst this would benefit some of the poorer teams it would not penalise others for good performance earlier in the season.
74

GrahamL,

14/03/2008 12:44:09
#84 That's a good point - count one home and one away match against Gretna for everyone, expunge the 3rd if it's been played.
Can't argue with that.
75

Jealousy,jealousy,

14/03/2008 12:46:09
#69 Mikey

Some fair points re the rest of the league. Outwith Rangers or Celtic the rest of the clubs probably wouldnt survive the Championship but to Wigan and Reading better than the OF? Come on! Are you seriously telling me the likes of these teams would beat the teams the OF have disposed of this season? AC Milan,Benfica,Shahktar,Lyon,Stuttgart,Panathanakos or Werder Bremen??
Everton and Spurs are decent teams but i would say that them against the OF would be extremely tight games. I certainly wouldnt be running scared of them.
PSV and Fiorentina? Decent teams no doubt but Everton absolutely murdered them at Goodison and PSV were far from impressive against Spurs. Bremen are a better side than either.
76

Jealousy,jealousy,

14/03/2008 12:50:07
#86

P.S Rangers played 10 European ties before the tie against Pana and against far superior opposition.
77

Lion-O "Lord Of The ThunderCats,

14/03/2008 12:53:35
According to the SPL rulebook "its playing record in the League may be expunged" if a club goes out of business.

Looks like it ain't really cut and dried.

I fully expect that if Gretna go bust the remaining 11 clubs will start horse trading due to the word MAY being in the rules. This farce will rumble on for the forseeable future.
78

Hertz Nil,

Where the grass is greener 14/03/2008 12:57:25
Many rational comments on this, even from the Jambos!

Unfortunatley there is no fair way to deal with this. Allow them to play on with 10 players/schoolboys and those teams they have left to play derive an unfair benefit in points and goal difference - a 10-nil thrashing would not be a surprise.
Alternatively, dismiss all their results and those teams, such as Hibs, who took maximum points from them under totally fair circumstances, are unreasonably punished -it will make 3rd place all but impossible for us, and up to £1m in revenue for playing in Europe potentially lost - extremely unfair.

Who's to blame for this farce? Not the SPL/SFA. How could they legitmately have refused Gretna promotion. There would have been outcry over that.
Nor the players/managers. They haven't been paid, and have effectively been sacked, and are expected by some to now play on and risk injury, and therefore no chance of a new club and wages possibly until the next season or beyond.

If anyone is to blame it is the Mileson Family. Hate to speak ill of Brooks when the poor man is not well, but they should not have started this season if they were not in a position to finance it through to the end. They would have known, if not immediately then within the first 5-6 games, that they would have financial difficulty and could have pulled the plug then, before any real damage is done. I suspect, based on a comment in the article and obviously have no evidence to support it, that it may be the son refusing to allow his father to commit anymore Family funds to a lost cause, and who could blame him.

What may come out of this, and is not uncommon in the real commercial world, is that every SPL Club have to put up a bond, or provide proof of financial assets at the beginning of each season. The farce that is now Gretna cannot be allowed to happen again....Hertz pls take note.

If a team comes 4th/5th this year, and loses a place in Europe as a result of Gretna/Mileson's shambl
79

Jealousy,jealousy,

14/03/2008 13:04:47
#88 Lion O

It appears the Aberdeen game will go ahead. Surely something must be in place to keep them going until the end of the season? Letting them play more games would just add to the farce that already is.
80

Cathcart Boy,

London 14/03/2008 15:51:00
Mileson's self-publicity as a "man of the people" has had its predictable end. His conduct as a director warrants a long ban from being a director - I wonder if he has taken that properly into account.
The SPL's decision to let Gretna into the SPL is shown to have been foolish. As is Motherwell's to groundshare, and now end with a wrecked pitch (not ust the playing surface, the whole construction) and a bad debt of sizeable proportions.
But what about appointing some person as Administrator who is not known to have experience of the football industry, seems to have no clear understanding of the rules of the league or of operating principles like having insurance, and can't even provide security to stop all these loyal Gretna people from the petty thefy of nicking boots?
The whole episode is a disgrace. The demise of Gretna is even more shameful than the shenanigans which surrounded the transition of Wimbledon to MK Dons.

 

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