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MSPs enshrine St Andrew's holiday

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Published Date: 29 September 2006
MSPs approve plans for St Andrew's Day holiday despite no vote last year New national holiday will not be a bank holiday or official public holiday Employers will decide whether staff can have the day off
Key quote "It is important to establish the principle of a St Andrew's Day national holiday. And once the holiday is established I'm confident that recognition of it will grow in the years ahead and, with the help of negotiations between employers and trade unions, it will eventually become an additional holiday" – Dennis Canavan, MSP
Story in full MSPs performed a spectacular U-turn yesterday and approved plans to create a new national holiday on St Andrew's Day.

Proposals for the holiday were voted down by 66 to 58 when in parliament last year.

But Jack McConnell, the First Minister, has since given his personal backing and the Scottish Executive's support to the idea.

The effect of his patronage was reflected in yesterday's vote, with many MSPs backing plans they had previously opposed. Yesterday, the plan was passed by universal acclaim in the chamber, without need for a vote.

The new holiday will be neither an official bank holiday nor a universal public holiday.

Starting next year, 30 November will become a holiday. If it falls on a Saturday or a Sunday, then the holiday will fall on the following Monday.

Workers will be allowed to take the day off if they can swap the day for one of their existing public holidays: the most likely option is the autumn holiday in September or October, which varies from region to region.

However, the day off will not be made statutory and it will be up to employers to decide whether they want to give staff the time off. There has been considerable doubt as to how many private companies will do so.

Many employers, including the main banks, do not observe the local autumn public holiday so they have nothing to trade for the 30 November holiday. But the confusion as to who would benefit from the holiday did nothing to curb the enthusiasm of MSPs for the plan - all of whom will get the holiday, with the rest of the public sector.

The bill paving the way for the St Andrew's Day holiday was pioneered by Dennis Canavan, the independent MSP for Falkirk West. He had originally wanted St Andrew's Day to be an extra day off for workers.

And while he told MSPs that was still his preferred option, he added: "I'm realistic enough to recognise that the bill has virtually no chance of getting parliamentary approval without the support of the Executive."

Mr Canavan said: "It is important to establish the principle of a St Andrew's Day national holiday. And once the holiday is established, I'm confident that recognition of it will grow in the years ahead and, with the help of negotiations between employers and trade unions, it will become an additional holiday."

Tom McCabe, the minister for finance and public service reform, said the ultimate aim of Mr Canavan's bill was to help create a national day to celebrate Scotland and its people. "The Scottish Executive completely subscribes to this aim," he said.

The Scottish National Party's Stewart Maxwell rejected claims that all businesses were against an extra holiday.

The Scottish Retail Consortium supplied the enterprise committee with figures showing that sales from a St Andrew's Day holiday on a Monday could be as much as £88 million, an increase of almost £30 million on a normal Monday, he said.

"If we are serious about growing our tourist market by 50 per cent over the next ten years, then initiatives like an extra bank holiday are exactly what we need, rather than robbing Peter to pay Paul by taking a holiday away from elsewhere in the year."

Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 September 2006 8:34 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: St Andrew's Day
 
1

Malc,

29/09/2006 00:05:18

I wonder if this could possibly to do with the recent fact that the SNP are breathing down Labour's necks?

2

scottwebb,

29/09/2006 00:20:22

Comment@1 Malcolm. I was thinking the same mate :)

3

,

29/09/2006 00:32:59
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4

scottwebb,

29/09/2006 01:02:54

I'm starting to lose my faith in MSPs after seeing interesting info like the following, i mean surely they must of heard of a thing called Agenda 21 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-893921550183947386 cheery days ahead for sure

5

Guga,

Rockall 29/09/2006 05:24:47

Great stuff. A holiday that isn't a holiday. Still, I suppose its a step in the right direction towards officially recognising our national day.

If Brown takes over from the war criminal Blair, he'll probably want to change it to St. Georges day.

6

Jmhzx,

Brighton 29/09/2006 06:40:55

who wants a holiday in the middle of winter and a religious one at that? I'd rather have "tartan day" in April than St Andrew's day in November. And what about people who don't believe in the Christian traditions? Are they to mark a saint's day? Load of balony!

7

Ivan the terrible,

29/09/2006 06:56:27

It,s a holiday well maybe!
We could try contacting confused.com maybe they could find out for us?
Of course it has all to do with next years May Election.
McConnell is running scared after all look at the shambles at the "NEW LABOUR" conference!!
He is a "LIAR" oh I never said that.
Then we heard Pressy trying to apologise for getting caught with his pants down.
Who do these people think they are.
They are all liars.
Never forget Blairs lies.
Jack Straw gets kicked out of his job he is now saying it was a mistake to go into Iraq!!
Please do they think we are all stupid.
Let us vote for Independence
and make "New Labour History"

8

DavidM,

Glasgow 29/09/2006 07:00:24

What a great idea - a non-holiday that you can swap with a holiday from a warmer time of the year.
This just about sums up the meaningless badly thought out policies in the Executive.
The Scottish Parliament is a joke - and while mad nationalists have a go at Gordon Brown for being British, at least he sits in a Parliament that actually does some meaningful work and can affect real change in people's lives (if it wishes to).

9

Big Ot,

Aberdeen 29/09/2006 07:14:35

Yes, the Labour government is sure making a difference to people's lives in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Edward = Another gullible soul trapped in a Unionist past and terrified of independence for his own country.

10

bill-alba,

29/09/2006 07:19:13

Edward..."The Scottish parliament is a joke" at least their our joke not some other countries...when have you ever seen the Parliament in England do anything for Scotland???
The fishing industry
The Coal industry
The Shipping industry
The poll tax
The Army - regiments
The Navy - Rosyth - Devonport
I could go on...
However I agree that to give a holiday that isnt a holiday is stupid..but they are in an election period...look out for more semi pro Scottish things being proposed...

11

Paul Voltaire,

29/09/2006 07:22:50

Those Buddhist public holidays sound fine to me

12

Phil MaGlass,

29/09/2006 07:27:58

Its quite amazing that it has not been a public holiday up to now, Look at St.Patricks day, it is celebrated all over the world by the Irish and gives them unprecedented world coverage,what better way to advertise your nation.And while I am on coverage why does Scotland not have a proper advertising campaign to attract visitors,I live abroad and have seen absolutely no adverts for Visit Scotland,although I have seen plenty adds to visit Ireland.

13

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 07:31:48

Bill @ 9

Every single thing on your list also happened in/to England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland was not singled out for ill treatment - apart from having the Poll Tax a year earlier - which did seem a bit crass to some of the people in England at the time.

However, good luck with the holiday - be nice if you could have it at a warmer time of the year - how about April 23rd?......... :)) lol

14

Peter The Great,

29/09/2006 07:38:20

When is a Holiday not a Holiday.

15

James, Edinburgh,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 07:38:37

I'd be happy if all the (various) Autumn Holidays were replaced with St.Andrew's Day. That would stop all the confusion about who's open when. Friends of mine travelled from Middlesborough to Edinburgh to tie up various matters after their father's death, discovered it was an Edinburgh Local holiday and had to come back a couple of weeks later, when the Cooncil offices were open. (They did manage to get their shopping and banking done however.) We could also do away with the Spring and Victoria Day holidays and combine them with the Easter Monday and Whit Bank Holidays..

16

mr chips,

GLASGOW 29/09/2006 07:45:11

11. Philip /visit scotland is run from their london HQ,
hence the lack of advertising abroad,they want people to visit london not scotland.they do however
advertise in scotland telling people to come to scotland, They treat us with contempt as usual.

The numptys give us a holiday,then steal a holiday from us,maybe the boss will let me exchange christmas day for st Andrews day,Another CON by mCONnell and his useless executive. ,but the msp.s will take it without the need to swap,bunch of no use no marks. LETS VOTE LABOUR OUT.

17

David,

Forfar 29/09/2006 07:47:50

Will we get a drop in our council tax to compensate for the absence of the public sector on that day? The private sector won't see this holiday.

18

bill-alba,

29/09/2006 08:17:26

Joanna...Yes similar things happened to England (apart from the Rosyth to Devonport move and the Fishing industry given to the EU which was a tory political move)...however what I was saying was that a parliament in England was making decisions for Scotland with little regard as to how it effected Scots.
(and before you all start about a Scottish mafia now running Westminster...thats just plain rubbish - look how many MP's come from Scotland and think what effect they can have if the English MP's want something different).

19

Grumpy,

29/09/2006 08:20:17

Why not change the date of St Andrew's Day to 4th July? At least Blair & bush will appreciate it - and it's slap bang at the start of Edinburgh Trades Holidays anyway, so all ths schools (in the east) will be on holiday anyway, so don't need the non-holiday. Oh, I can't be bothered with this..............

20

Pete McClelland,

Kirkcudbright 29/09/2006 08:32:09

If I opt to work on this (non) holiday, will I get a non grantable Lieu day off (not) in return?
Confused? Tune in to the next episode of Holyrood!

21

Nigel,

Dunfermline 29/09/2006 08:40:18

There appears to be a few of those political types on this message board. Anybody know the result of the Markinch by-election ? Someone told me that the Lib dems said were going to win it easily. Did they ?

22

John,

Clovenfords 29/09/2006 08:42:08

Why not wait until we can have an Independence Day holiday and schedule it for July?

23

,

29/09/2006 08:55:36
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24

JHC,

29/09/2006 08:59:00

Did not the SNP take Markinch?

25

freetalkscotland,

29/09/2006 09:03:44
26

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 09:15:36

Bill

I don't have any problem, whatsoever, with any elected MP from any of the home countries (Scotland, Wales, England, NI) becoming PM, or being in the cabinet, in the house etc, etc. I do have a problem with some of the policies of all the political parties but that has nothing to do with where individual MPs come from. Believe me, not all 'the English' are bothered where the PM and the Government come from as long as they are doing a decent job!

Don't believe everything you read in the papers or in opinion polls about the English having a vendetta against Brown because he is Scottish - people put a lot of hyperbole on these forums and in the media from both Scotland and England but it doesn't reflect the views of all the people of that country. As for opinion polls have you ever been asked for your opinion? I, know that I never have - so I wonder where this "cross section" of the public come from. Opinion polls should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Anyway, I've moved away from the point of the article - St Andrew's day holiday at the end of November - getting a bit cold then isn't it? I still think April 23rd would be your best bet ...;))

27

Tappets,

29/09/2006 09:21:35

Is it my understanding that the MSP have just voted themselves and all Parliamentary and Council employees another holiday at the tax payers expense? This goes with their secure pensions, retirement at 60 and a nice golden handshake. It would appear that our "career" politicians have no grasp on the real world. This country is being divided into two groups, those that take and spend and those that provide. We need this imbalance addressed.

28

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 09:24:40

Bill

About the fishing industry - the whole of the east coast once had a fishing industry, including England. Grimsby was one of the biggest markets for fish in England. Their fishing industry was destroyed as well - and it created a lot of bitterness. Lets not even get started on the bitterness that still exists, in the former coal mining areas of Yorkshire and Notts, against Thatcher.

29

Choose a nameSteven,

saltcoats 29/09/2006 09:25:52

i would give about 200,000 redundant, in all but the legal sense of the word, public sector employees in scotland a permanent holiday - then we might see some progress in this country. who the hell voted these balloons in - not just labour - but who voted for this huge monument to futility in edinburgh in 1998? not me anyway, im just another one of the ordinary people who pay for these half-wits

30

bupf,

29/09/2006 09:28:45

Ricidulous. The UK has the least Public holidays in the whole of Western Europe.

Now we get some half-arsed holiday. Shows you what the Parliaments powers are.

31

bupf,

29/09/2006 09:31:31

'and, with the help of negotiations between employers and trade unions'

what trade unions are they then ?

What century do these clowns live in ?

32

Rich,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 09:56:18

I'm glad that St. Andrew's Day passed so easily, BUT why not make it a full blown holiday? One more holiday surely wouldn't leave us as economically destitute as I thought. Just imagine if this day became big! It could become as large as St. Patricks!

33

Ashley Thomson,

29/09/2006 09:56:18

so we only get this "holiday" if we give up one of our other days ?! and we still have the lowest number of public holidays in europe all because the majority of politicians would rather bow down to the demands of business. cowards and careerists.

34

bupf,

29/09/2006 10:18:57

Theres something wrong with this country. I happened to walk through Edinburgh near rush hour last night , all these little calvanist clones and drones marching about , sour pussed , phone clamped to their ear , talking sh*te basically. I was thinking that all major capitals Ive been in (outside the UK) i could walk down the street at a normal pace , pretty much in a straight line with no hassle. In edinburgh , overgrown village that it is, the little - useless - financial service tossers need booted up in the air and told to smell the roses.

35

michael,

29/09/2006 10:21:19

Nice to see that those hardworking MSPs get another holiday, they really need it considering all the hard work they do.

36

Heather B,

29/09/2006 10:27:38

How can a discussion on a public holiday become embroiled in the war in Iraq?! There's so many comments on here that are bizarre, but am not sure how the "catholic dominated" Labour party can be slagged off for calling a public holiday on St Andrews Day. The "St" bit stands for "Saint", which i'm sure even the densest poltroon on here will recognise is a Catholic term.

Rab #15 - what orifcie are you talking out of? the tourist board are based in edinburgh, which i think even with your basic knowledge of, well anything you'd accept is in scotland.

Steven #28 - yes, get rid of all the public servants, the ones who nurse your sick rellies, the ones who process the court paperwork to put criminals away, the ones who drive the fire engines to put out your fire in your flat. Yes, what a great idea. Take a cookie from the jar.

37

bupf,

29/09/2006 10:33:20

This would never have happened if we were Independent.

ermm..

38

Choose a nameSteven,

saltcoats 29/09/2006 10:40:20

re Heather - I knew someone would bite. I didnt say get rid of ALL public servants. 200,000 represents about 37% (roughly) of the public sector in Scotland and if you dont think we could do without that amount take a look at the Scotsman or Glasgow Herald jobs pages on any Friday and tell me we cant do without some of the made-up garbage, often highly paid, non-jobs on offer. THe health sector jobs will ultimately be predominantly private sector where there will be no place for the plethora of 'administrators'. On the criminal justice system it is grinding to a halt because the executive want to interfere in judicial appointments and because they dont value criminal defence lawyers. We could lose 200,000 jobs easily and, if the revenue saved was used constructively; Scotland could become a genuinely competitive country instead of the former eastern european command economy that it appears roly-poly Jack the adulterer aspires to for us all.

39

Choose a nameSteven,

saltcoats 29/09/2006 10:42:07

Bye tha way i am apolitical - BIN ALL the MSPs, let out Holyrood and put the money into medical R & D or anything more worthwile

40

Sedov,

29/09/2006 10:44:59

Its good to take any paid holiday that is given, but as an atheist I could am not celebrating St Andrew or even St Mirren.

41

bupf,

29/09/2006 10:47:39

St Johnstone ? Isla St Clair ?

42

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 10:50:52

Our mid-January observance of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday struggled at first too, but finally got national recognition by even the private sector. Even though it comes so soon after the Christmas holidays, most Americans now take the day off except for retail stores, which use it as an advertising vehicle. It's an official public holiday and a day of great pride for persons of African descent.

So... good luck with St. Andrew's day. It might take ten years, but it'll catch on. Also, I agree with the person who said that Scotland doesn't advertise for tourism. Ireland (republic) has very enticing ads to tempt tourists, and there is absolutely no reason why Scotland can't do the same. In fact, what would be really clever would be for both of you to advertise together, so that people, especially Americans who like to be efficient even on holiday, could see two countries in two weeks. It sounds like a bargain so people who haven't even gone to one of the nations yet would be spending tourist dollars in both.

If I were to say what should be emphasized, I would say you should concentrate the very romantic history of Bonnie Prince Charlie, some kind of tourist activities loosely based on R.L. Stevenson's books, Lorna Doone, and other such tales. Your fishing villages are natural tourist havens, and eco-tourism is also a big thing. Every American knows about the Great Famine in Ireland, but very few know about the crofters being thrown out of their homes in Scotland.

Edinburgh is a tourist natural, soaked in history and local color.

However, you do have "instant history" with Rob Roy and William Wallace, especially since Mel Gibson arrived on the movie scene, so there are two more avenues of recruiting tourist dollars. I venture to say very few Americans knew about William Wallace until the movie came out.

You do have to get off your tartan backsides and stop blaming Britain for everything. They aren't in any pos

43

Honest Opinion,

Germany 29/09/2006 10:51:28

You're right Heather - lets get back to the basic topic.
Again, we have "laughing stock" material emerging from our Lords and Masters in Holyrood. A holiday that isn't really one - PLUS - please note there are 2 full months left to 30th November 2006 - time enough to prepare one would think. Nope - wrong again - the non-holiday doasn't come into effect until 2007. Time to set up a non-elected Quango of pals to decide on the rules governing the non-right to take the non-holiday

44

Choose a nameSteven,

saltcoats 29/09/2006 10:51:57

Bye the way did anyone see "Extras" last night. Brilliant.

45

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 10:57:41

42. Henry: This is exactly why Scotland can't get itself hauled up by its own braces in order to DO SOMETHNG. You'd rather grouse about the situation than join in any constructive venture.

I dunno, maybe it's in your genes.

46

Choose a nameSteven,

saltcoats 29/09/2006 10:58:30

#45 Dugald - your dead right mate.

47

bupf,

29/09/2006 11:01:06

Martha , beat it. Nowt to do you with you.

48

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 11:01:40

You know, after reading JM from Brighton, maybe I'll give up on Scotland entirely. Believe it or not, you are still a Christian country and why anyone would object to St. Andrew's Day is totally beyond me. Here everyone celebrates St. Patrick's Day, since it involves vast quantities of beer, corned beef and cabbage (not that too many Irish got to eat beef in the Olde Country) and parades.

Or are you waiting for an official pronouncement to the effect that your atheist or muslim minorities are so sensitively tuned that you daren't celebrate St. Andrew's day for fear of upsetting them beyond their capacity to bear it without starting riots and killing people?

49

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 11:04:06

Up yours, Tina. You're posting on the internet, an American invention, on a personal computer, also an American invention, and you're talking about St. Andrew's Day and tourist dollars in the same breath. Since Britain doesn't have a dollar-based system, I have to assume you want the American trade. Is your species of rudeness how you intend to develop your tourist economy?

50

,

29/09/2006 11:06:24
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51

Navvy,

29/09/2006 11:07:08

hey Joanna, nobody took your bait. Was it ignorance?

Never mind, I can tell you that here in Singapore we have the best Feast of St.Andrew celebration ever. 400 to a ball, full pipe band - from Nepal, Same dance band for 20 years, all Scots. etc

I think that there ere about 50 people to the 23 April event

52

,

29/09/2006 11:07:14
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53

David Park,

Ayrshire 29/09/2006 11:07:29

I always find it interesting how readily ALL MSP's are held culpable for the decisions of the executive. How different when it comes to Westminster! How quickly blame is 'focused' down there. Not only to the governing party, but beyond that to individuals.
Of course this is just part and parcel of the unionist media's attempts to undermine the Scottish Parliament and, by extension, the Scottish peoples ability to govern themselves. It's so transparent that I'm constantly surprised by anyone falling for it (or perhaps they're just as disingenuous as the 'Scottish' media.)

54

,

29/09/2006 11:09:09
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55

jacky,

England 29/09/2006 11:09:16

So we can look forward to a St. Georges day bank holiday here in England then?

That's if our nearly all Scots cabinet will allow it!

The corrupt Scottish Labour Party never surprises me.

The Scots wanted devolution, their MP's should have been part of the package!

56

Navvy,

29/09/2006 11:09:54

steady tinatiktak
yes we should celebtate our saint, I do, see my previous post
BUT, you are wrong about the internet, it was invented by a Brit as was the personal computer and much else besides

57

,

29/09/2006 11:10:04
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58

,

29/09/2006 11:13:08
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59

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 11:16:05

Peter, just exactly where do you get THAT? The Einiac was the first real computer, invented in the USA during World War II, and the internet was a child of the Advanced Research Projects Agency, (later DARPA) an agency within the US Dept. of Defense. IBM came out with the first PC. IBM was begun by a man who was born in the same city as I was, which is most definitely not anywhere in Britain.

English (not Scottish) mathematicians, like Americans, understood what a computer was in the 19th century, and an English woman did so much work on it that the U.S. Defense Dept. named some proprietary software in her honor, namely, Ada.

But we're talking about Scotland's bid for tourist dollars. If you want dollars, you have to attract Americans, Canadians, and Australians. IF you want marks or francs or rubles or yen, then say so. And try to be a little more polite whil you're at it.

60

,

29/09/2006 11:16:45
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61

Navvy,

29/09/2006 11:21:25

Oh no martha. have you never heard of tim berners lee?

There were personal computers before IBM though i agree that IBM coined the phrase

And steady there marhta, I hae not been rude yet

62

A J,

29/09/2006 11:24:13

Did anyone REALLY think Holyrood would be good for Scotland? Other than the thousands of public 'servants' that we pay for, of course.

63

Navvy,

29/09/2006 11:24:52

Martha, any currency is good though if I were you I would hold off foreign travel till the greenback exchange rate improves for you

The wilds of Yosemite are pretty good as are the villages in Maine

Disneyland you can keep

64

Navvy,

29/09/2006 11:28:24

Martha
Tim Berners-Lee
With a background of system design in real-time communications and text processing software development, in 1989 he invented the World Wide Web, an internet-based hypermedia initiative for global information sharing. while working at CERN, the European Particle Physics Laboratory. He wrote the first web client (browser-editor) and server in 1990.

65

Navvy,

29/09/2006 11:40:24

and again martha, we Scots gave you a hand
THE role of James Anderson, the Scot who advised George Washington to get into the distilling business and helped America's first president become the country's biggest producer of whiskey, was recognised yesterday as a replica of their operation was opened by Prince Andrew.

66

Gordon, Canonmills,

Canonmills 29/09/2006 11:52:41

Martha

This must be a wind-up- I can't believe that there are Yanks quite as stereotypically patronizing as you appear to be.

Themepark Scotland?

Playground for arrogant Sepos?

Thanks, but NO thanks.

Once Scotland is a real country once again, hopefully it will also develop real industries.

And you can shove Disney, Stallone and all your fascist, imperialist politicos (including Bush's catamite, Tony Bliar).

67

Heather B,

29/09/2006 11:54:38

I always laugh when i see the private sector having a go at the public sector. Steven with his 200,000 redundancy plan probably being the best example. Who do you think buys the products the private sector are selling?

The St Andrews day holiday is a great chance for Scotland to be sold abroad or in the UK. come to scotland, maybe do some christmas shopping here, and enjoy some of the events that can be put on to celebrate Scottishness. It's an opportunity, but in a typically Scottish way, plenty people are ready to kick in the teeth before it gets a chance. That side of Scottishness is not maybe so attractive for visitors to see mind you!

68

Janis,

London 29/09/2006 11:58:14

Hi Joanna..... Lets petition for a St. Georges Day Holiday. Can you imagine it :- An English spring day, toasting the Bard (with English wine of course), with at least 12 hours of daylight, by the river Avon. Even a few morris dancers perhaps...Beautiful.

Martha.... Lorna Doone was set in England, & yes America may have invented a computer but the www was developed by an Englishman.

Jack @ 56 Gordon Brown will sanction a St.Geo`s day I`m sure for us.... he is determined to be British

69

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 12:03:30

Martha @ 41 said:

"I would say you should concentrate the very romantic history of Bonnie Prince Charlie, some kind of tourist activities loosely based on R.L. Stevenson's books, Lorna Doone, and other such tales."


R L Stevenson did not write Lorna Doone and it is not set in Scotland - I think you are confused and actually mean Kidnapped which was written by Stevenson and is set in Scotland.

Lorna Doone, A Romance of Exmoor, is a novel by Richard Doddridge Blackmore. The book is set in the 17th century in the region of Exmoor in Devon, England.

70

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 12:07:31

Peter @ 52

Glad to see someone was awake ......... it is warmer in April tho' ;))

71

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 12:09:42

Janis @ 69

"Thistle & the Rose - Alan Massie - excellent book - thanks :))

JoAnna

72

,

29/09/2006 12:19:16
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73

Choose a nameSteven,

saltcoats 29/09/2006 12:22:59

Heather - the point still stands there are thousands of made up jobs that everyone is paying for. Is that your justification that people in these jobs generate demand? What about getting rid of the posts using thesavings to stimulate the economy and create or attract jobs which are sustainable without handouts and which would, in turn, genrate revenue for the services that the public sector should be providing. A St Andrews day to rival a St Patricks day should happen. But for Gods sake we should be getting our priorities right.

74

Jack1,

29/09/2006 12:29:59

Over 90% of voters in your poll want St Andrews day to be a holiday. There's a surprise! Would you expect the result to be different if you asked who wants a holiday on St George's day, St David's day and groundhog day, too?

75

Tam,

29/09/2006 12:36:30

Tina - I know quite a few folk fae European countries, including capitals - who like the Scots and like living here. The problem isnae wi the Scots - the problem is that you seem tae be sufferin fae a particularly bad dose o the Scots Cringe. The answer is tae reject ur inherent feelings of superiority over the people around you and to realise the Scots arenae much better or worse than any other European people. Calm doon - reject irrational loathing and feel the love. By the way - I forgive you

76

bill-alba,

29/09/2006 12:41:24

Joanna.... I'm aware that the east coast of England lost most of its fishing industry as well...
so I go back.....The UK (english) parliament decided on that policy...so you are getting what your politicians decided....If it was a Scottish Parliament that sold our people down the river then they would be booted out....(note the fishing industry in scotland accounted as a huge employer whereas in England the fishing industry only represented a small proportion of the work force).
Im sure that England will have a St George's day soon...

77

bill-alba,

29/09/2006 12:45:27

Jack...
The cabinet may be full of scots...but remember there is approx 600 English mps and only 59 scots mps...so its your MPs that aren't giving you a holiday..

78

Tom of Ocean city,

former U.K. colony of Maryland 29/09/2006 12:48:02

Euro's don't work. How can they tell a holiday from any other day...LOL

79

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 12:49:52

Hello Bill,

I know the Scottish fishing industry was a big business - a friend of mine is from Wick and his family were fishermen. The fishing industry in Grimsby was the main employer tho' and the town just about collapsed along with the fishing industry at the time.

St George's day has been suggested down here by someone or other. So has reinstating Trafalgar Day but that would be a British holiday of course and would happen in October - could still be a mite chilly but with global warming - maybe not.

I'm all for more holidays - I don't think the UK get anywhere near enough! ;))

80

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29/09/2006 13:11:27
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81

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 13:12:42

About time too!!

82

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 13:13:57

Yes just what we need a holiday to celebrate our most famous case of grave robbing. Even Burke and Hare did not resort to stealing the interred corpse of a Saint. Nevertheless I happen to adore St Andrews for the golf and I'm sure the Saint himself would approve. So however we ended up with the bones of Saint Andrew, at least he was real and tangible and not a myth, ahem... so what about this Saint George? Will this holiday apply only to MSP's by any chance?

83

bupf,

29/09/2006 13:16:42

JOanna & Jack , welcome ;)

84

johnny gorbals,

29/09/2006 13:18:06

I'm with all those who consider it risible to swap a holiday from a mild season to a cold one.

I'm also with those who are not inclined to celebrate a saint's day holiday.

However I am in favour of a holiday to celebrate our Sottishness, and wouid suggest that since our de facto national anthem is a dirge that recalls a rare military victory over the auld enemy, this same event would be an appropriate focus for a holiday.

Does anybody out there know what battle it was, and more importantly, what time of year it took place?

85

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 13:19:35

Odd isn't it that we keep inventing days which polarize and reflect the sentiments of people on the fringes.

Why is it that in the UK there has never been a day when we celebrate Britishness. As a United Kingdom we did a lot of things - some we can even be proud of. We have no national day!

86

bupf,

29/09/2006 13:21:26

While on the subject , what the bloody hell is boxing day about ?

87

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 13:26:08

80. Joanna, Trafalgar Day! I'd love to see that. One of my lot was at the battle of Trafalgar on board HMS Tonnant!

88

johnny gorbals,

29/09/2006 13:27:44

Martha,

The pc is just a development of the difference engine invented by Charles Babbage before you American settlers killed off the indigents.

You'll have to try a bit harder to come up with an original American invention other than the electric chair, and even that is just a development of the manual chair and the mechanical chair.

89

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 13:28:38

David @ 83

St George was born to a Christian family in the 3rd century in Palestine and was a real person. He was decapitated as a Christian martyr during the reign of Roman Emperor Diocletian (284–305).

The cult of St George probably first reached England when the crusaders returned from the Holy Land in the 12th century. King Edward III of England (1327 – 1377) was known for promoting the codes of knighthood and in 1348 founded the Order of the Garter. During his reign, George came to be recognised as the patron saint of England.

However, the bit about the dragon is, of course, mythical or possibly it could be allegorical and George never, actually, visited England or lived here. There is a movement in England at the moment to have St George replaced as our national saint with St Augustine who is credited with bringing Christianity to England.

90

JANIS,

London 29/09/2006 13:28:44

Tina @ 84 Touche!!

91

bupf,

29/09/2006 13:36:15

JOanna

"There is a movement in England at the moment to have St George replaced as our national saint with St Augustine who is credited with bringing Christianity to England."

Who is credited with taking it away again?

92

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 13:39:29

Good point ......... Tina,

Maybe the poor church attendance in England should be laid squarely at the feet of the people to blame ........ the church itself..!

I don't think St Augustine has the same ring to it tho' - some of Shakespeare would have to be rewritten for a start..... :D

93

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 13:45:39

90. Joanna, heard all this before. It's still amyth about a man who is confused with other Roman soldiers and even a myth about Zeus, and had absolutely no connection with England.

94

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 13:46:54

Is it not the case that the Pope urged Roman Catholics in England for a time celebrated St Peter as Patron Saint?

95

JANIS,

London 29/09/2006 13:51:52

There is a movement to bring in St Alban as the English Patron Saint, the only English martyr. But his emblem is very much like the Saltire, except the diagonals are pale yellow and that could lead to unfortunate mix-ups... can you imagine it?

96

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 13:54:14

Which raises the obvious question, had the Crusader knights not nicked the bones of Saint Andrew - would our Patron saint not in fact be Saint Columba - who brought Christianity to Scotland and Christianised the Picts at the cost of having his eyes poked out!

97

inter alia,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 14:12:38

I've retired! Can I have an extra day's old age pension please ?

98

johnny gorbals,

29/09/2006 14:18:50

I want to change my mind and vote to celebrate American Indepenence Day. This is a momentous day that all Brits should give thanks for as in "Thank goodness we're rid of them!"

99

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 14:19:12

What happens when someone reports sick on this day,will it be seen as a holiday?

100

Spud,

NC USA 29/09/2006 14:20:23

Easy Peasy - Get rid of the Queens birthday nonsense for Scotland and merge Tartan day (america thanking the Scots ) onto St Andrews day - paint faces blue, and like the Irish and all the Oirish wannabees, everyone gets skooshed.

101

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 14:23:09

What happens when someone reports sick the day after,will it be seen as a hangover?

102

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 14:28:25

102. Moichael Mc Tartantrews, erm,, thanks but no that's not a good idea. I'm a Scot living in the US and I think Tartan Day is the biggest load of crock that has yet to be invented. What reeally annoys me most though are those NY parties that thrown for Tartan Day were you have to be incredibly rich to attend them. it's unScottish and the people who go to them deserve a doing for dressing so badly in our national costume. Oddly ebough that included Jack McConnell in his very gay looking kilt at one point.

103

bill-alba,

29/09/2006 14:29:18

TX - there isnt a day that celebrates Britishness because there isnt a thing called a British public holiday.....eits either a Scots holiday or an English holiday...(and of course there wouldnt be anybody in Scotland celebrating one)

104

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 14:30:29

104. Me, forgive the typo's, jeez that's even bad for me, I'm trying to eat my breakfast with the other hand.

105

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 14:31:23

105. Bill, why not? I'd celebrate my Britishness, many Scots would, just not you apparently.

106

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 14:41:10

107. Peter, yes so what's changed? Rich foreigners farting around in fake tartans and invented costumes made up to flatter their ego's back then, and today we have the rich Noo Yoikers who all seem to want to dress like a made up costume modelled on something they saw on the movie Braveheart. BTW, have they given us Wallace's sword back yet? I've lost track of where it is!

107

mr chips,

29/09/2006 14:45:15

I heard the the executive gave mo johnson £10.000.00 to appear in a kilt at a TARTAN DAY BASH IN NY. PATHETIC WASTE OF MONEY

108

mr chips,

29/09/2006 14:47:20

108. David, TX/When?, THE QUEENS BIRTHDAY

109

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 14:56:53

112 Peter. Really Peter? So you've never heard of the defeat of Napoleon, the Kaiser or Adolf Hitler? Or more humble things like the National Health Service or the rise of the Trade Unions, emancipation of the working man in the 19th century, or names like Florence Nightingale, or great authors who gave us such a wealth of reading? Then of course there are great leaders like Caracticus, Boudicca or Arthur who defending our islands against the invaders. Do you really believe there is no concept of Britishness?

Sad to here that the fringe politicians and tartan clad weirdo's, have been able to polarize thing so much that we have even lost respect for the men who died in WWII - that was Scots, English, Welsh, Irish. Or what about the euphoria in the nation after the defeat of Napoleon which is celebrated in the song Rule Brittania. All forgotten and nothing to celebrate?

Hmmm, you've been reading your SNP manifesto again having you Peter?

110

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 14:59:19

111. FELIX, no I already said that we have no British National Day, it would have to be a day which was not connected to Royalty. The poster (Bill) generalised with a sweeping statement saying that Scots wouldn't celebrate a British Day, I merely pointed out that a great many would.

111

Stuart B,

London 29/09/2006 15:15:46

David #104 - what is "a very gay looking kilt" then? Am concerned that my own kilt might be a little too "straight", but don't want to go too far either way. Can you recommend a metro- or bi-sexual one for the twenty-first century age?

112

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 15:20:35

Er ......David @ 94........ I did say that St George had never been to England in my post 90. He was adopted as patron saint by Edward III during the crusades.

Whether he came here or not is irrelevant anyway - the whole saint and martyr religious thing is shrouded in myth anyway....... :)) Some might argue that the whole of religion is a myth!!

113

inter alia,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 15:20:36

.. anybody listening out there ... just want an extra days pension in lieu of another holiday .. go on .. please ...

114

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 15:30:49

Peter @ 118 & David from TX

Interestingly enough the words for "Rule Britannia" were written James Thomson, a Scottish poet and playwright.

He was born at Ednam in Roxburghshire, and educated at the University of Edinburgh.

Small islands these aren't they?

115

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 15:35:42

115. Stuart, London. As part of Tartan Day celebrations, Jack McConnell once wore a striped kilt that could only be described a skirt. If you haven't saw the picture it's a scream.

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1138422006

116

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 15:38:23

Joanna,

Do you win every argument? It would seem so!

You've fairly zapped Peter and David with your interesting and entirely accurate posts.

Well done ;-)

117

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 15:53:29

118. Peter, Kirkcudbright. You are wrong about Arthur. Most of the battles attributed to him are actually found in Scotland.

The grave of Caw the Pict, for instance is located in Cambuslang, Glasgow where he was defeated by Arthur. Then there are as many would argue with you that Prince Arthur was son of the King 'Aedan mac Gabhran' of Dalriada (Kintyre). No surpise either to find Merlin was a Druid who fled to the forest of Caledon to live. The earliest reference of Arthur is from "Y Gododin" by Aneirin, who went south from Edinburgh to engage an enemy army at a site or district called Catraeth.

No surprise either to find that Arthur's O'on was a Roman Temple that existed at Falkirk, on the very frontline close tot he Antonine Wall, and also no surprise that this is located close to the village of Canelon, or that this Arthur engaged the Picts at the foot of Dumyat at the Ochil Hills.

"According to legend, Arthur's last battle was fought against Modred, the son of Lot the King of the Picts. Modred was therefore a Pict. According to the Annals of Wales, this battle involving Arthur and Modred was fought in the year 539 AD, while according to the Norman-Welsh Cleric Geoffrey of Monmouth it was fought in 542 AD.

In fact in reality the only battle in historical records fought between Arthur and the Britons on one side and the Picts on the other was fought by Arthur son of Aidan. There is no other."

http://www.legendofkingarthur.com/camlann.htm

http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/1/hatf.htm

118

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 15:54:44

121. AJ, Fife, what are you muttering about now AJ. Same old nonsense I expect.

119

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 15:56:04

122. Me, That should have read Camelon. Was a typo. :-)

120

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29/09/2006 15:56:35
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29/09/2006 16:03:22
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29/09/2006 16:05:20
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29/09/2006 16:09:25
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29/09/2006 16:11:11
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 16:14:58

Anyway and so back to the debate... Should we in fact be celebrating Saint Culumba's day instead? He was afterall a saint with a real connection to Scotland and our Christian past.

126

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 16:20:14

Nice Maxwell, I like the idea of one big paid public holiday...

127

David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 16:22:13

131. Peter, duh and the tribe the Britons lived where exactly? Caledonia btw way was only ever the North of Scotland after the tribe that lived there.

128

David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 16:24:40

131. Peter you are obviously a troll on the boards. Any 10 year old kid could explain Britishness to you. Just becaue you don't have any, doesn't mean the rest of us aren't patriotic Britons. I also served man and boy in HM Forces. You seem to have a very sketchy idea of history Peter. I would expect more from someone claiming to have been a Naval Officer.

129

David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 16:28:25

131. Peter, btw the Charter of the Land in the song, is imaginary, as though given to us by God. As that too difficult for you to comprehend?

130

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 16:30:20

Because mspS have performed a spectacular u-turn
and approved plans to create a new national holiday on St Andrews day.Does that mean no one will turn up tomorrow for the Independence 1st March in Edinburgh?

131

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 16:36:09

137. Peter, 12th century Myth... Heard all this English rubbish before and it sounds no less convincing from you. Cornwall, Wales, Southern Scotland was the Kingdom's of Britons. The Goddodin were descended from Lott or Llyod from where we derive Lothian.

You are obviously English and like too many English can't get your head around the fact that Arthur actually wasn't one of you lot. He was your enemy.

132

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 16:39:41

BTW, Peter, no all Scots were not Caledonians (Picts) as you claim. So no the Roman's did not call Scotland Caledonia. The Kingdom of Strathclyde for instance was Brythonic - that's Britons - as in Rule Brittania. Of the 7 or so Kingdom's that existed in Scotland, only a small number of them were Pictish. Do get your facts straight.

133

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29/09/2006 16:39:47
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 16:41:20

p.s. Then of course there's Scots themselves (on Kintyre and West coast) who were most definitely not Picts and hence were never known as Caledonians!

135

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29/09/2006 16:45:08
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 16:50:11

143. Oh really Peter, so where do you imagine the word Lothians comes from? And why do you think it is that the writings about the tribe the Goddodin who had their Kingdom from Edinburgh down were written about by Welsh bards like Aneirin and their history is found in ancient books that exist in Wales, and why do you think that the people who lived in South West Scotland (Brythonic Kingdom of Strathclyde) were not Brythons when recorded history tells us that they were. Sounds like you've been reading British history according to the English by Big Ears and Noddy et al...

137

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29/09/2006 17:07:14
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138

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 17:12:27

Davie TX,

I do not appear with Janice all the time, thank you very much! There only a few hundred people who post regularly and our names crop up occasionally together.

So please stop being so paranoid!!

Can I ask a possibly silly question - does the US have a patron saint? If the answer is no, who should the US employ?

139

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29/09/2006 17:19:39
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 17:22:57

Whatever Peter, but you have still not answered the question based on your claim that the Brythons never lived in Southern Scotland. Odd that because where you claim to be currently, happens to be located slap bang in the middle of the ancient Kingdom of Strathclyde, Alt Clut or Cumbria. Likewise you have not answered my question arising from your false assertion that the Roman's called all the people of Scotland "Caledonians" when of course they did not - only the Pictii were ever called that. As I pointed out recorded history proves otherwise.

Ptolemy's Geographia - lists the tribes, found in southern Scotland at around the time of the Roman invasion and the establishment of Roman Britain in the first century AD. As well as the Damnonii, Ptolemy lists the Otalini, whose capital appears to have been Traprain Law; to their west, the Selgovae in the Southern Uplands and, further west in Galloway, the Novantae. In addition, a group known as the Maeatae, probably in the area around Stirling, appear in later Roman records. The capital of the Damnonii is believed to have been at Carman, near to Dumbarton, but around 5 miles inland from the river Clyde.

The Brythonic Kingdom of Alt Clut (Strathclyde or Cumbria) which you claim did not exist stretched from the north end of 'Clach nam Breatann' or the 'Rock of the Britons' at Loch Lomond, the Campsie Fells and the marshes between Loch Lomond and Stirling and south into Clyde valley and along the coast towards Ayr.

141

mr chips,

29/09/2006 17:37:24

151. David, TX / and the wombles came from wimbledon, am i correct ,please tell.

142

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 17:39:15

Any of the brainbox,s know anything about st andrew?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Andrew

143

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 17:47:07

Just looked at your link, Cameron, according to that - St Andrew never visited Scotland - must check out St Patrick and St David and see if they ever actually visted Ireland and Wales. I'm sure St Patrick did, but I think the snakes are a myth - probably allegorical for heathens!!

144

inter alia,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 17:53:51

150+ comments and still no mention of compensating the old age pensioners who cannot take a working holiday. Masses about history - tons of stuff telling me how wonderful it's going to be when the SNP get in - some bloke on about being a RN officer and the last night of the proms - but no one listens to the heart-felt pleading of an old grandad. Wasn't like this when I was paying all that tax to have you educated and looked after - oh no - wasn't like this when I was charged with the defence of the realm - oh no - funny how things change - enough - I'm off to eat my supper - beans on toast - be different if they gave me an extra days pension!

145

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 17:59:33

154-Did george slay a dragon.?Maybe someone will find this website interesting.
http://www.independence1st.com/index.shtml

146

inter alia,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 18:11:33

[154] You been in one of those cafes with the green and white triangles ?

147

Audrey,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 18:43:44

The staff who work for the Scottish Parliament already have a St Andrews Day holiday - they gave up the local Edinburgh holiday in September for it.

148

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29/09/2006 19:31:06
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29/09/2006 19:32:09
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 19:37:17

Joanna. No need for anymore of your pitiful divisive attacks on Scotland.

As for St David yes he lived in Wales and was a contemporary of Columba and Mungo (Kentigern) who actually met him, St Patrick was taken to Ireland as a captured slave.

We already know that St Andrew never visited Scotland, until his bones were brought there.

As for St George he's a complete myth, nay 13th century invention, based loosely on various Roman soldiers and the story of Zeus slaying Typhon. At least the other three were real people.

Saint Columba however was completely real and has more right to be considered the patron saint of Scotland, than Andrew whose bones were stolen from Greece.

Not that most Scots care much since the majority of them are not Roman Catholics and since the reformation don't believe in such a thing as worship of Saints - with the notable exception of Santa Claus.

152

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29/09/2006 19:39:53
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AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 19:41:41

David TX,

You've cracked the US patron saint issue - Santa Claus, the perfect choice!!

154

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29/09/2006 19:48:22
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Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 20:03:39

David from Texas - who is also Mary

Give me one instance of where I have attacked the Scots .......... just one. I have a deep affection for Scotland where I have a lot of relations and friends. You, however, regularly attack anyone who contradicts you.

Check my id out with the Scotsman if you want - I have only posted on here as one person.

The story about St Andrew's bones is a legend and a myth. You are right about St Columba, however, he would be a more apt patron saint for Scotland.

157

David Ex-Pat,

KY 29/09/2006 20:03:56

168. Rennie. They aren't Roman Catholics (unlike the Irish) as was pointed out, so extremely unlikely that most Scots will ever celebrate any Saints day. They certainly don't need the nonsense of Sat Patricks Day, as a Catholic I find it offensive to see people drinking beer and acting like assholes. The American idea of Tartan Day is already a joke to them.

158

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 20:11:38

I am not Mary, my IP address would prove that. Like your other name AJ you refer to me as David from Texas - I am David from Glasgow actually, I just happen to be working in Texas.

St Andrews' grave was certainly robbed and there is a whole in it to this day which proves that his bones were taken some place. Some of them I have no doubt reached Scotland, why else why would we have this story?

Being of a Kintyre family, I have been to the remains of Columba's tiny chapel at Southend (yards from where my own ancestors are buried). His artefacts were also carried by Scots at major battles. Pretty real. So really, St Andrew's Day is not that important, and nor is Saint George's day. I can't see what all the fuss is about myself.

159

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 20:19:33

David @ 171 - you can ditto that IP thing for me. I am not AJ, Peter, Janis - the Womble person, Uncle Tom Cobbley or anyone else on this board.

I think the point of the Saint's day is that it is just a convenient hook to hang a holiday on. Lets face it we are ill served in this country with bank holidays compared to our European neighbours.

As to the origin of patron Saints it is all lost in the mists of time and unless some archaeologist discovers a long lost manuscript which details it all then we will never know for sure. Mind you, if such a manuscript was found someone would say it was a hoax or a conspiracy theory!

160

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 20:30:41

172. Ironic isn't it that that we have a St Andrews in Scotland, but no town called named St Columbas?

I suppose the origin of patron saints was something along the lines of the old myths and holy artefacts, regarding things like The Spear of Longines the Nazi's, Christ's blood, Holy Grail etc... which were carried into battle at the front of Armies. So that if you have an artefact then somehow you have the power of that Saint on your side. Superstition, is the word that springs to mind. ;-)

Before Christianity the very same things were done using for instance Greco-Roman or other pagan gods. Come to think of it many of those pagan gods were suddenly Christian Saints... ;-)

161

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 20:32:01

...should have read the Nazi's went a big deal on... Ouch, I hate the fact you can't edit afterwards on these boards. :-)

162

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 20:34:58

Arn Ky,

You're right about Scotland probably not getting to excited about St Andrews Day, due to the Calvinist/Presbyterian background.

However you're wrong about Tartan Day. It's currently only a fraction of the size of the St Patricks parade, but the organisers(St Andrew Society NY amongst others) take it very seriously indeed and aim to expand the march. The Tartan Parade only recieves limited coverage in the Scottish and American press -mostly positive, so it's in no way a joke.

Maybe some of the individuals that attach themselves to the thing are a joke, but the essence of Tartan Day is not.

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29/09/2006 20:37:48
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 20:41:53

AJ Fife. Have you ever seen Tartan day for yourself? It's quite disturbing actually how only the very wealthy are involved in the actual do's that go on, and as the poster pointed out a complete joke.

Most Americanised things are, for instance earlier this year I was offered tickets for a Burns supper if I was prepared to pay $200 a head for my wife and I. It's all the same bs. Outside of the bagpipes, the psuedo-Scots clowns in the Braveheart costumes are what makes the event a complete joke.

165

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Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 20:43:51

Was st columba a freemason?
http://www.stcolumba1295.co.uk/stcol.htm

167

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 20:47:05

Run along AJ, and come back when you have something interesting and on topic to post. :-D

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David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 20:49:16

180. Cameron. Are you insane? Many Scottish masonic lodges are named after Saints. Although, The patron saints of Freemansonry are the 2 Johns.

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29/09/2006 20:52:57
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Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 20:54:44

Disney in Scotland? I never suggested such a thing. Disney World was initiated for chidren 6-12 years old, originally; but it was so well done that adults like to go there with or without children.

However, putting such a theme park in Scotland would be silly, if only because the real thing is here and people like to come to Florida to enjoy it. Still, if tourists are bringing children to Scotland, it might be nice for the little kids to have something like that to attend in between being trundled through castles.

You should capitalize on what you have that no one else does: the gorgeous highland scenery; the lochs and fjords, the history, fishing villages, Scottish dances and games, that kind of thing.

What about moving St. Andrew's Day to March, in between St. David's Day and St. Patrick's Day? That way you'd probably snare a lot more tourists, and the three Celtic nations could make it a sort of Pan-Gael festival. Since St. Andrew's Day is not any historical date but a relic of the Catholic calendar, I would think you would be able to move it with impunity.

173

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 20:56:15

183 bernie-just asking ,im a rite fitter maself

174

David Ex-Pat,

Falkirk 29/09/2006 20:57:30

186 Martha, fjords is Norway...

175

David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 20:58:26

187. Maybe you are but you don't appear to be a freemason...

176

David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 20:59:53

Great idea Martha let's move St Andrews day to March and Christmas day to July, and let's celebrate Easter in August....

177

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 21:00:31

There really was a St. Columba, not that Presbyterians go in very much for saints from what they consider to have been the bad old days of the Roman church.

You know, Scots here are thought of far differently than you think of yourselves. The Scots here are known as fierce warriors, excellent soldiers and policemen, canny with money, sticklers for cleanliness, great writers, inventors, and legislators. America benefited greatly from the Scots who settled here and added their stubborness and perseverance in the face of difficulty to our national tapestry.

From what has been posted on these forums for the past several months, it's amazing how gloomy you all seem, and how you paint a picture of legislative bungling, poverty or at least economic depression, and general social ills.

178

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 21:01:41

Ronnie, I'm no geologist but have been taught that fjords are common in Scotland as well as Scandinavia. We even have a fjord in our country, on Mount Desert Island off the coast of Maine.

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29/09/2006 21:01:43
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Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 21:02:59

189 bernie-niether was st columba a rite fitter,but that didn,t stop christianity reaching scotland.

181

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 21:03:42

Well, Bernie, since St. Andrew's Day is not linked to anything but Catholic liturgical calendars, what's to prevent you moving it? We moved our Thanksgiving to a month before Christmas; it had been celebrated earlier. The world did not come to an end when we did it, and within a few years everyone had forgotten being upset by the change.

If it would give Scotland a jump start to its tourist industry, then what's wrong with moving the holiday?

182

David Ex-Pat,

Falkirk 29/09/2006 21:05:06

Pan-Gael festival??? Christus sur une bicyceltte... Same old garbage from the Americanos lump all the Celts together... Even when they are culturally different and have little in common.

191, Martha, and I suppose America is a bundle of laughs, and not a divisive society where the working class have no health care, no job security, unacceptable levels of poverty with no support, and serious racial tension issues. Look at your own backyard before you attack others Yankee.

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Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 21:13:47

191 martha-your right some scots can put themselfs down too much.But the general opinion in holland is that scotland is under england ie-we,ve been conquered.The UK,Great brit,etc is seen as England and most famous scots and scots inventions are seen as English.

187

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 21:14:55

The USA as far as I know does not have a patron saint, since it did not start out as a Catholic nation. Of the 13 original colonies, there was only one Catholic colony, and that was Maryland.

And for the bozo who complained about my being "peninsular," I've only lived in Florida three years. I was born in NY, lived abroad and in various states here, and have relatives in England, where part of my family originated, the others coming from Wales, Ireland, and Germany. I married a Scot and therefore my children have Scottish heritage in addition to the other nations of the British Isles.

You know, I don't come on this forum and insult you, even with the most egregious errors and bigotry that I read here about my country. I have completely changed my mind about moving my publishing company to Scotland, as obviously all of us "Yanks" as you like to refer to us would not be welcome, and no doubt the jobs we would bring would be sneered at as well. Apparently you don't realize how insular and provincial you can be, and how disheartening it is to be met with that sobering fact.

Formerly I had considered that Scotland had several enticing factors: I thought you had a disciplined and responsible, as well as educated, work force and cultural attractions for a highly literate and very well-educated group of Americans who would be willing to relocate to your country. Now I have to consider industrial sabotage from the rampant and frankly ignorant anti-Americanism I read here. I am sure the Republic of Ireland would welcome me with open arms, however, as they seem to have learned how to operate in the real world of commerce.

188

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 21:18:54

David TX,

Do you think a St Andrews Day holiday would be a good idea?

189

David Ex-Pat,

29/09/2006 21:20:24

200, Janis. No it doesn't. I couldn't care less. I think it's pathetic to the point of being funny that you hate the Scots this much. Only proves my point and proves to anyone reading your postings that you are a complete tadger whatever name you post under. Get a life. :-)

190

JANIS,

London 29/09/2006 21:23:00

David 204 when have I ever said I hate the Scots?

191

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 21:23:15

202 martha-im sorry to hear about your disapointment,but i can assure you not all scots are what you described,even in scotland.

192

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 21:24:03

America has one of the highest standards of living in the world. Health insurance? Most working people have it. IF they don't sign up for it, that is their choice. Temporary workers frequently do not have health insurance, although some temp companies offer it to workers if they have been on the payroll for six months. This kind of ignorance is precisely what I am talking about. So, you lose a business to some other venue.

What exactly is it about us Yankees (a term here that means people from north of the Maryland/Pennsylvania border) that so excites your venom? You talk about increasing tourism, then you insult prospective tourists from the one country that could send you many millions more of them. What is wrong with you?

193

David Ex-Pat,

Falkirk 29/09/2006 21:26:21

202. Martha, Miami, why dish out the insults and then wonder why Scots respond to your comments about them? So don't bring your publishing company to Scotland. look nobody cares. We don't need your American people in our country thanks. Sod off to Ireland for all I care, you sound like a Paddy anyway.

194

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 21:26:48

Martha Miami,

I'm very sorry about the insults aimed at the super power,that is the United States of America, on this forum.

If you won't re-locate your publishing company here would you consider opening a bakery here, and supplying the country with muffins?

195

mr chips,

glasgow 29/09/2006 21:27:58

204. David / Well said mate ,lol.

196

David Ex-Pat,

Falkirk 29/09/2006 21:29:42

207. Poverty is rife in the USA to unnaceptable levels. If you are unemployed you have no Health Care, if your Health Care runs out no one will treat you. Racial Tension is to the point that you might get murdered for your colour if you find yourself in the wrong side of town. What pi$$es most people off about Yankees is your patronising attitude.

197

mr chips,

glasgow 29/09/2006 21:32:35

207. Martha, Miami / We are not all motivated by dollars and greed. which your counrty portrays as succes.

198

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 21:35:08

Martha,

Have you any idea how patronising you sound? A lot of people just post on here because they want to let off a bit of steam. These forums do not reflect the views of every person living in Scotland.

However, Scotland and the rest of the UK are not some charity case that are going to fall at your feet with gratitude for your largesse!

199

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 21:36:24

211. Ronnie. Steady on old thing. We know the NHS is a very good thing... I decided some time back that the first sign of a wobbly and I'll be on the first flight to Gatwick. Let's keep it on topic though.

200

wattie>x 1,

England 29/09/2006 21:38:04

I wish every single Scot expressed the same eloquent views as Ivan the Terrible.
Now that I am over eighty years of age and a life long passionate Nationalist; I may still live long enough to see my hope for an Independent Scotland come to fruition, before *Auld Nick* gets his claws on me.
My sincere regards Ivan.

201

Slurach,

Alba 29/09/2006 21:39:38

The St Andrews holiday is a good Idea even though its only symbolic..but as was said earlier..its a start.
And as to the people who say the Scots parliment is crap...of course it is..as its still run from down south and was always meant to look crap so westminster could say...look at the scots numpty parliment...its no use..we better just keep you in the union..so until we get a real one..no point moanin about the mickey mouse one till we get the real one

tioraidh an drasda

202

Phillip,

Commonwealth of Virginia 29/09/2006 21:41:33

I've read through all the posts on this and find much of what has been said quite interesting, if rather off-topic.

However, allow me to state that Martha et al do not represent the views held by all of us who are citizens of these United States of America. Not all of us are patronizing bullies, just the Republicans (aka followers of Bush).

Seriously, I think that the idea of a St. Andrews day is a fabulous idea from the point of view of retail & tourism. It's a great way to increase sales and maximize profits. If the idea is simply to create a way for business to do more business, then it's a great idea.

As an instrument of national pride, perhaps other choices would have been more suitable.

203

Martha,

Miami 29/09/2006 21:41:40

211 Ronnie: Poverty in the USA would be considered lower middle class in much of Europe, and would be riches in Africa and southeast Asia. Ronnie, I know nothing about you and can only assume that what you state so categorically is on the basis of complete ignorance.

Ever hear of Medicaid (government-paid medical care for anyone who can't afford health insurance because their income is officially under the poverty line, or less than about $24,000 per year, the last I knew.) How about WIC for unmarried or poverty-level mothers and children; school lunch and breakfast programs for welfare children; Pell grants for college for the same people, along with many other official welfare agencies and innumerable private charities? America is a country that offers 13 years of free education to all, and limitless opportunities, as every group of immigrants to arrive here proves again and again and again.

You ignore the fact that our grievous institution of slavery was initiated by the three great European powers: Spain, France, and England, for two centuries before the colonies became a nation. You ignore the fact that our First People were decimated mainly by diseases brought by the same Europeans. You ignore the fact that you are the place that gave the world continuous persecution of Jews, pogroms against various minorities, state-sponsored persecution of conquered peoples, endless wars, an idle aristocracy living like vampires off the blood of the people, plagues, superstition, ignorance, dirt, and crime. Or haven't you ever read Charles Dickens or Emile Zola? There is not one nation that is immune to social ills; but I can assure you that whatever propaganda you read about the USA is either completely wrong or much exaggerated at the minimum. That being said, clearly you prefer sulking and whining and blaming, rather than standing up and correcting whatever situation you dont like. You're welcome to your pessimism, envy, and nastiness. I won't w

204

David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 21:43:49

While there's still any oil and gas left to come from the North Sea, and Whisky to tax, I don't think any of us will live to see Independence Walter.... ;-)

205

Joanna,

Cambs 29/09/2006 21:50:33

Martha,

You ignore the fact that it was the people of Europe who you so viciously malign that went to America and became Americans!

The blood of all those 'awful' Europeans runs in your veins......:D

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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 21:52:31

218, Martha I cannot agree with Ronnie, but the your statement about poor people in the USA being equivalent to the lower middle class in Europe is just silly.

There's a lot of poverty in the USA, I see street beggars on Houston's Streets everyday, and I can assure you they are not lower middle class in any nation.

I personally do not believe in a class system and as a Socialist I reject all notion of it. Although, lower middle class to British people, generally means working people who own their house.

Apartment living in the USA which applies to the majority of working people is not equivalent to British lower-middle - it's equivalent to their working class.

207

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 21:59:08

Joanna, Cambs

Well said, you fairly put Miss Muffin in her place. But you better watch oot, that Weegie Davie TX is after your blood and mine!!!

Do you think the first colonists would have bothered with Roanoke, James Town etc, if they knew what a monster had been born?

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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 21:59:23

222, Rennie. Hmm I'm stumped. Remove all that and we don't have much else to celebrate that we could all agree on. Some might say, roll on Independence day... ;-)

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29/09/2006 22:03:14
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29/09/2006 22:12:33
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David Ex-Pat,

TX 29/09/2006 22:17:53

Time I was going down to get my mail anyway. Don't upset too many people while I'm gone AJ. ;-)

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Slurach,

Alba 29/09/2006 22:20:39

Marta 218

Why the hoo ha about slaves ( wrong as it was) I think every race had them at some point or other going way back to biblical times..so to single out Europeans is plain daft..and as to wars..Cant say we can take the blame for viet nam ..and nukin japan wasnt our idea either
I have a few American friends..and fortunatly none are like you ..Tioraidh an drasda

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29/09/2006 22:23:49
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Nita,

29/09/2006 22:24:11

Martha, you give Americans a bad name...girl come out of your Ivory tower and take a look around you here in America!

We are still rebuilding from Katrina....our country sat with the world and watched our government sit and let people die, refusing planes with supplies to help our poor....

Poverty levels in some places in our country is so bad, that people still live in shacks, with no water and no power.....just walk over to a Indian reservation some time and see how they survive girl friend.

Medicaid has been cut a lot, and not everyone can get it....not every company offers insurance and those that do, don't always hire people in full time so they can get it, most would rather use the temp services so they don't have to pay it for employees.

Yes we live in a country where people have it better than other countries, but we are not the greatest in the world, we do have problems that did working on.

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29/09/2006 22:24:33
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29/09/2006 22:24:56
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29/09/2006 22:25:55
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Steve,

29/09/2006 22:27:08

AJ is the Steppenwolf open yet?

David, stop havering on about us being Britons.
The "Britons" were actually the Welsh, who populated this island as far north as the Clyde. They were celts. This has little to do with the "British" identity you are slavering on about, which really means modern Anglo-Saxon culture to the detriment of all others. British identity is a figment of your imagination.

The defeat of Napoleon, Hitler and the Kaiser don't evoke "Britishness" to me, they evoke war! Is that what defines your identity? Fighting Napoleon? Britain didn't win the second world war, the Allies did. Yeah, you're a true Saxon, David.

Arthur,Boudicca-Welsh freedom fighters.
Great authors? Shakespeare doesnt fill me with any sense of shared heritage, sorry. Every country has authors. Scotland has a few great authors, but try telling anyone south of Carlisle.

You accuse those who reject Britain of having lost respect for the men who died in WWII, I dont think so! My grandparents fought against fascism and tyranny, and your insinuations are frankly a bit desperate! Obviously a unionist. Labour or Tory?

No sorry David, I dont accept your theories on national identity. I'm Scottish. I think justice, humility and a respect for the brotherhood of mankind are Scottish values shared by others other all over the world.

Class? War? Division? Imperialism? Greed?
You can keep them.

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29/09/2006 22:29:39
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mr chips,

glasgow 29/09/2006 22:30:06

yeah here it comes,Can you imagine working at the following Company? It has a little over 500 employees with the following statistics:

29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
19 have been accused of writing bad cheques
117 have bankrupted at least two businesses
3 have been arrested for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shop-lifting
21 are current defendants in lawsuits In 1998 alone
84 were stopped for drunk driving

Can you guess which organization this is?

Give up?

It's the 535 members of the United States Congress. The same group that perpetually cranks out hundreds upon hundreds of new laws designed to keep the rest of us in line. TRUE.

221

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 22:31:42

234-steve,did younot mean humanity.

222

mr chips,

glasgow 29/09/2006 22:32:31

Next is closer to home,,Jack mconnell had just started as first minister. As he was wringing his hands in glee sitting at his big desk, he saw a man come into the outer office.Desperate to appear clever, jack picked up the phone and started to pretend he was having a chat with tony blair .

He threw huge figures around and made giant commitments. Finally he hung up and asked the visitor, "Can I help you?"

The man said, "Yeah, I've come to connect your phone".
boom, boom,

223

Uisge Beatha,

COLORADO 29/09/2006 22:32:42

I haven't read through every comment on this site, but I just have to say Scotland is more than entitled to celebrate a holiday honouring St. Andrew. After all, the US celebrates Mexico's Independence day in our schools and in our streets. I urge the Scots to hold fast to your unique identity as you have for centuries. On St. Andrews Day I will proudly display a Saltire in solidarity.

224

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 22:34:50

238-rab thats a repeat

225

Steve,

29/09/2006 22:35:36

AJ you still go out much?

Cameron, o I meant humility. Look it up buddy.

"The rank is but the guinea stamp, the man's the gowd for a' that.."

226

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 22:39:43

241 steve-mmm i think i understand...

227

Steve,

29/09/2006 22:41:56

Humility as in not looking down your nose at people because of their status..

228

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 22:43:12

Stevie,

Dinny go oot much noo pal, got tae keep the heid screwed on. The days o hoorin' aboot are in the past, and in the the past, they must remain......

229

Steve,

29/09/2006 22:46:00

But they can still rise now, AJ!

I'm the same actually. I've lost your details, but it's good to see you fighting thre good fight. You would have enjoyed MARKINCH last night, it was superb!
Not fancy getting stuck in?

230

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 22:46:05

243 steve-that sounds reasonable.

231

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 22:55:48

There should have never been any doubt about this holiday. Labour hummed and hawed about it for far too long and are now only caving in because they are worried about an SNP challenge in 2007.

232

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 22:57:24

Stevie,

It's maybe the time, right enough. 7/8 months to go and perhaps we could plan to have an Independance Day holiday!!!

What's it like "ower the watter"?

233

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 29/09/2006 22:59:09

Let's have a democratic referendum on independence and let the people decide if they want to stick with a half pint parliament and politicians without any ambition for Scotland or have the normal national powers of independence.

I'll be going to the Independence First (www.independence1st.com) Democracy demo tomorrow and I encourage everyone here to do the same if they support independence.

We can win if we work together in 2007

234

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 23:04:35

Stevie,

Lets hope Markinch is the true Barometer for next year!

235

Steve,

29/09/2006 23:05:23

AJ, I have had you in mind for something big that's coming up, and I've already discussed it with the top guns.

Get in touch, add my surname the above, @hotmail.com.

It's ok over here, but still miss the old days!

236

mr chips,

barmuloch 29/09/2006 23:05:25

Independece .please.

237

Steve,

29/09/2006 23:08:14

Put your specs on Wullie!

238

mr chips,

barmuloch 29/09/2006 23:11:00

I meant to say ,FREEDOM ,scotland ,beware of stevie.

239

Steve,

29/09/2006 23:34:57

AJ (if you're still awake) I have a proposition for you. It's a juicy one. Lets just say I wish I was still living in the area. Dont be shy!

stevie ________@hotmail.com

240

AJ,

Fife 29/09/2006 23:39:33

If it's haundin' oot leaflets.....forget it!! :-)

I've already e-mailed you neebs!

241

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 23:47:42

Whats the weather like in edinburgh tomorrow?ma wether device is broke.

242

Uisge Beatha,

Colorado 29/09/2006 23:47:56

The US is not "rife" with poverty. There are areas of the country that are full of the poor to be sure. As for health care...due to the greed of big business our health insurance is nearly unaffordable, however no one is ever denied health care. Proof of that is the complaints citizens have about the illegal immigrants overburdening our health care facilities.

I can see from my fellow Americans' postings that perhaps they have a limited view of the country...as I do. The US is a huge country and no one can see what happens everywhere. Also, we are each individually influenced by our own cultural backgrounds and tend to live in a way that seems good and comfortable.

America has its problems..mostly due to horrible government corruption and, again, greed. Sitting on this site and insulting each other doesn't do anyone any good. A steady stream of communication will go a long way and maybe a truer picture of reality will emerge.

243

Fannybawz,

amsterdam 29/09/2006 23:55:37

258-colorado maybe someone just saw the small picture and then began to think of the big picture.

244

mr chips,

glasgow 30/09/2006 00:25:46

257. cameron, Well said,I totaly agree.

245

David Ex-Pat,

Markinch 30/09/2006 00:54:10

The SNP are a by-election party, come the real thing, they lose. As usual thought he deluded SNP crowed get carried away... LOL!

246

Menzies,

30/09/2006 02:22:02

a day off for a fisherman from Capernaum...just a thought but why not a William Wallace day - now there's a hero! Or just a plain Scotland Day? Celebrate who you really are, not who people think you should be.

Whatever you do, Scotland, please don't let that beautiful, wild, unique country ever get turned into McDisney. People don't go there because it's slick and polished. They go there because it's authentic - well, maybe not the Jimmy hats. Stay real. Stay yourselves. Protect our heritage for us (the house where my father was born still stands; my grandfather's farm is still a working farm).

247

Menzies,

30/09/2006 02:53:18

Martha, by 1790, Edinburgh alone had 16 publishing houses and one of the highest literacy rates in Europe. Scottish publishing houses are still considered among the best in the world, particularly among scholars. Your publishing company might be better taken to New Orleans where, as I understand it, employment is sorely needed.

248

David,

Malaysia 30/09/2006 03:30:49

As everyone has forgotten what the original subject was (St Andrew's Day ) may I join them and say to another David- #120 , please do not show that web-site of the gormless-looking bloke in the kilt/skirt again! I checked it out and can only say whoever advised this man Jack McConnel to wear it must hate him very much! I only hope he doesn't dress this way when he goes overseeas. I have seen worse - but no' that much worse .

249

Stephen fae Scotland,

Edinburgh/California 30/09/2006 04:37:08

A 'vote' without a vote for a 'holiday' that is no holiday celebrating a Saint's day in a country that has all but ceased Christian worship.

Devolution at work - where would we be without it?

250

Stephen fae Scotland,

Edinburgh/California 30/09/2006 05:34:25

Hey -I can say that Scotland is irreligious, I am Scottish, I don't know where you are from Rennie!


Anyway, PLEASE don't think the huge number of "independence is the answer' postings here is proof of anything other than how nerdy Nats are. Lots of us are proud of our Scottish and British heritage. So please DON'T wish us well with 'our' independence. That is for nutters.

251

Andrew.,

30/09/2006 10:49:20

Holiday at the end of November! Who on earth wants that?

I traded my 4 local half day holidays in about 15 years ago for 2 extra full days holidays to take when I want.

252

Uisge Beatha,

Colorado 30/09/2006 14:38:35

Rennie, I don't know where you're getting your information about Scotland... Scotland is much more "religious" than the US. They still have prayer in public schools...children still said grace for sure just a few years ago. The whole Celtic / Rangers footba' (soccer to you) thing is Protestants vs Catholics at the core. Don't forget the influx of devout Christian/Catholics from Eastern Europe.

(And when my children went to school here in Colorado they were warned on the first day of school not to say "God" Bless you when someone sneezes!!!)

But that's beside the point. Logically an area is better managed on a local level. Therefore Scotland (or any country) would be better off running itself with local representation than being run from Westminster by a bunch of English who may or may not be born in Scotland. That's a big part of what's wrong the US...it's just too big and much mis-managed. I hear of California seceding... I say let them.

Anyway...I agree that Scotland could get lessons of failure from the US, but don't forget America is much the child of Eiurope (including Scotland) and when does a parent listen to the advice of a child? Scotland will do well on its own...very well.

253

Joanna,

Cambs 30/09/2006 18:47:38

Shaw @ 270

I don't know where you get your information from but the 'bunch of English' you refer to who may or may not have been born in Scotland, include Gordon Brown and John Reid - contenders for the Prime Minister's job. Both of these men are most definitely Scottish.

Check out their biographies on these links:

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page1388.asp
www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page1378.asp - 11k

You've obviously been away from these shores for a long time.

254

Uisge Beatha,

Colorado 30/09/2006 19:38:39

Joanna...I know they were "born" in Scotland, but I don't believe your place of birth necessarily makes you of the blood. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it's a duck.

255

Joanna,

Cambs 30/09/2006 19:55:25

They both have Scottish accents and homes and constituencies in Scotland - they are not English - they are British and Scottish. Brown is so Scottish that when his young children were born he went back to Scotland to make sure they were born there. In fact, Brown's Scottishness has been causing some resentment among English voters which is being manipulated by the Tory (opposition party) press.

Tony Blair however, was born in Edinburgh but raised in England with secondary education in Scotland - he is more English than Scottish.

256

Slurach,

Alba 30/09/2006 19:57:26

Joanna@271

As the ald sayin gings...jist acuz yir born in a stable..it disnae mean that yi come oot a cuddy

Tioraidh

257

Joanna,

Cambs, Albion 30/09/2006 20:01:06

Slurach @ 274

You seem to be in denial about owning Reid and Brown ......... I can understand that - we're not keen on them either!

258

missing home,

30/09/2006 20:32:56

Mary, the mother of Jesus, is the patroness of America. How about Beltane as our national holiday.

259

Slurach,

Alba 30/09/2006 21:15:26

Joanna

Not Denial really..just non acceptance of them because of all the broken promises and the lies
I dont think anyone in their right minds would own up to Blair and Brown bein kin
Ah Blair an Broon hiv din thon 9 yrs sine is been a fell trachle tae is ah
And as to BLair ..Scots Accent..not at all..Brown..A wee bittie mair

Tioraidh

260

Joanna,

Cambs 30/09/2006 21:34:06

Oh I agree with you about Blair - he hasn't got a Scots accent and I don't think he thinks of himself as Scottish. But, Brown and Reid both sound Scottish to my ears.

Perhaps we should put the whole shebang of them on a deserted island together and start again....:))

261

Uisge Beatha,

Colorado 30/09/2006 22:05:07

I'm with you Joanna...just make sure the island is big enough to hold our numpty politicians as well.

262

Slurach,

Alba 30/09/2006 22:27:46

Joanne

Yes you are right...but pity to waste a good island as it would not take them long to ruin that too.
Its just so amazing that they have deluded themseles into thinking that have achieved anything worthwhile during the past 9 yrs in power

Tioraidh


 

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