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Brown survives Labour revolt on 42-day detention



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Published Date: 12 June 2008
GORDON Brown last night secured a narrow victory in the battle over 42-day detention of terror suspects, but was left badly wounded by the scale of the Labour back-bench rebellion.
The Prime Minister was forced to seek the support of the nine Democratic Unionist MPs from Northern Ireland to ensure that the key measure in the Counter Terrorism Bill passed through the Commons. Some 36 Labour MPs rebelled, which would have been enough to bring about Mr Brown's first defeat as Prime Minister as it would have wiped out Labour's normal working majority of 65.

There were angry scenes in the Commons as the result was announced, with Liberal Democrats and Conservative MPs shouting at the DUP "you were bought" and "hope the price was right".

Rumours were widespread that Mr Brown had offered the DUP a £200 million concession over water rates, to be spent by the devolved administration it runs with Sinn Fein in the province. But the government insisted the £200 million was a previously agreed windfall from the sale of army bases in Northern Ireland that had been announced last month. Ministers insisted there had been no concessions.

Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem leader, said the vote marked a "victory of pork- barrel politics over principle", while John McDonnell MP, chairman of the left-leaning Labour Representation Committee, said: "Any attempt to present this as some sort of victory for the government will ring hollow. This is no way to run a government. Securing votes by threats, bribes and personal pleading demeans the role of the Prime Minister."

The government victory means its plans to increase the period terror suspects can be detained without charge from 28 to 42 days was secured by 315 votes to 306. In addition to the DUP, the government was supported by the Tory MP Ann Widdecombe and Bob Spink, the Tory-turned-UKIP MP.

David Davis, the Tory shadow home secretary, said: "We won the argument, the government bought the votes. The measure is likely to be rejected in the House of Lords.

"Amidst widespread reports of vote-buying, the government did not have the Labour support to win – leaving its parliamentary authority in tatters."

In the Commons, Mr Brown looked uneasy as he awaited the vote, fiddling nervously with his cufflinks and staring into space. He had spent days personally phoning rebels in an attempt to win their support. Despite claiming that defeat would not provoke a vote of confidence, his efforts to secure victory showed how important he regarded it to his long-term survival.

Many observers believed the victory had been secured as soon as Ian Paisley, the former DUP leader, led his colleagues into the government's voting lobby. But the scale of the Labour rebellion caught many by surprise.

Michael Martin, the Speaker, was forced to rebuke a Tory MP, Roger Gale, for suggesting that some MPs had failed to vote with their consciences. If the DUP had abstained and the vote had been tied, parliamentary convention would have meant that the Speaker would have voted to preserve the status quo – meaning government defeat.

The bill now passes to the House of Lords, which is likely to reject it – forcing the Commons to vote to overrule the Lords.

Bob Marshall-Andrews, one of the Labour rebels, said: "It was the worst conceivable result. (Mr Brown] won this vote on the back of the Irish vote."

But Willie McCrea, a DUP MP, insisted: "We decided on an issue of principle on national security."

A source close to the Prime Minister admitted that winning by just nine votes was disappointing. But he said it was an acceptable result as there were 55 rebels at one stage. "We fully expected to lose today," he said.

Katy Clark was the only Scottish Labour MP to vote against the government. Other rebels included Diane Abbott, Frank Dobson and Kate Hoey.

Earlier, at Prime Minister's Questions, Mr Brown said the proposals were a "matter of necessity" and he would be failing in his duty if he did not try to put them into law.

But David Cameron, the Conservative leader, said there was a danger that the moves could prove counter-productive. "Terrorists want to destroy our freedom," he said. "When we trash our liberties, we do their work for them."

Mr Clegg said the bill had no chance of becoming law as it would be blocked by the House of Lords and was likely to be declared illegal by the European Court of Human Rights.

There was also a likely court challenge by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, he said.

Pete Wishart MP, the SNP home affairs spokesman, said: "This is the worst of all outcomes for Gordon Brown. He can no longer rely on his own MPs for a parliamentary majority, but is instead hanging by an Ulster thread."

Mark Lazarowicz, the Labour MP for Edinburgh North and Leith, had grave reservations about the proposal and had considered rebelling, but said: "I was given assurances that they do not expect the powers to be used."

Kate Allen, the Amnesty International UK director, said: "This is a dangerous and disappointing decision. No government minister should have the power to allow police to lock people up for six weeks without charge."

>BULLETS
A bad day for freedom: What it means for civil liberties

Analysis: John Scott


AS A supporter of Raith Rovers, Gordon Brown will know the meaning of the phrase "win ugly". It is more than unfortunate that a similar approach is considered acceptable on matters of principle. In desperate need of a win for political reasons, the Prime Minister should be ashamed of himself for sacrificing another part of our liberty in the (now less-mentioned) war on terror.

Without an increase to 90 days' detention, Tony Blair said we would all be less safe. For our government, this is all about random numbers and posturing, not about the right of an innocent person to be treated fairly.

When ministers run around making promises and threats, it is hard to accept assurances that they do so out of principle. When those who seek to persuade do so out by misleading use of partial information, it is impossible to see it as anything other than politics – a prime minister in need of a win.

Opponents were accused of being "soft on terrorism". The government says only "Trust us – it's necessary". But trust must be earned. We cannot afford simply to trust any government when it comes to our liberty.

What is involved in pre-charge detention? The police are not always able to proceed immediately to charge someone. They may require to complete their investigations. However there are time-limits for all such investigations even in minor cases and, whether completed or not, the law says that a person should be charged in order that they understand the allegations against them. Without knowing the charge, a person cannot begin to defend themselves.

It cannot be right that someone should be kept in custody for 42 days without even being told why they are there.

And what happens if the police or security services make a mistake? Think that mistakes couldn't happen? Not after the de Menezes case. Or Lofti Raissi, an Algerian pilot wrongly accused of being involved in 9/11. He was held at Belmarsh for six months to the severe damage of his health.

The increase to 42 days was voted through without evidence to justify it. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that yesterday was a bad day for freedom.

• John Scott is a leading human rights lawyer and chairman of the Howard League for Penal Reform in Scotland.

A Pyrrhic victory: What it means for Prime Minister

Analysis: Gerri Peev


WHAT price victory? About £200 million, apparently. Gordon Brown won the vote, but not thanks to the backing of his party. It was down to the nine DUP MPs, who are rumoured to have secured a multi-million-pound concession from the government.

Last night, 36 Labour MPs rebelled against Mr Brown – just 13 fewer than the number who defied Tony Blair in 2005 on the anti-terrorism issue. Mr Blair lost the vote, while Mr Brown won, but it seemed a hollow victory; the look on Mr Brown's face when the vote was announced said as much.

In any case, the House of Lords has threatened to throw the bill out, and it also faces the threat of legal challenges domestically and in Europe.

Shortly before the DUP's backing was secured, one member of the government involved in a frantic arm-twisting operation told The Scotsman the vote would be lost by "single digits".

Last night, a normally loyal MP asked: " If a prime minister cannot command the respect of his party, how can he win the respect of the country?"

Mr Brown may attempt to use the win as a way to bolster his leadership – by having his bill passed by the Commons, he has avoided any chance of a confidence vote.

But there was an air of desperation leading up to the vote. One MP battling cancer left his sickbed for the first time in months to make the vote. Another who had just been widowed was dragged back to the Commons, while David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, cut short a trip to Israel to return.

A recent ICM poll found a majority of the public backed the idea of locking up terrorist suspects for up to 42 days. But as David Davis, the shadow home secretary, has pointed out, the key to winning support is in the phrasing of the question. If members of the public were asked if they backed the detention without charge of innocent civilians for six weeks, the answer would be "No".

Damningly for Mr Brown, most respondents believe he is weaker on terrorism than the Tories, even though he was the one advocating an extension of detention without charge.

So even when the electorate agrees with the Prime Minister, they do not give him credit for the idea. It is far from the definition of being a winner.

Song explains PM's drive to battle on

A CLASSIC tune by entertainer Sir Harry Lauder may explain Gordon Brown's determination in the face of adversity.

The Prime Minister has told schoolchildren in Dundee that he is a great admirer of the song Keep Right On To The End Of The Road.

He replied to a letter sent by P5 pupils at Sidlaw View Primary who are compiling a book of music hall lyrics for an end-of-term concert next week.

The song's lyrics state: "Tho' you're tired and weary still journey on."

FACT BOX

THE Counter Terrorism Bill aims to update the UK's ability to tackle the threat of terrorist attacks in the face of increasingly complex and global plots. The most controversial proposal is to raise from 28 to 42 days the time suspects can be held without charge.

Another key proposal is to allow police to continue questioning suspects after they have been charged, up to the start of their trial.

The government proposed a series of amendments to the 42-day period in an attempt to win over reluctant back-benchers. The new detention powers would be used only in the face of a "grave, exceptional" threat to the UK. Also, they would have to be approved by Parliament within seven days of being implemented, and they could apply for only 30 days, rather than 60 days as first proposed.

The full article contains 1991 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

CRAGman,

12/06/2008 00:09:09
The people triumphant, the legal bods democratically overruled. A good result for the man in the street. Let's get taken a bit more notice of in future.
2

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 00:13:00
ANNUAL REPORT

Name: Sergeant Brown, Gordon
Number: D0000001
Posting: Recruiting Sergeant, Al Qaida.
Performance: A1
Notes: NOT suitable for any other posting due to limited intellect.
3

Good Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 00:24:31
Blame the DUP for this narrow victory and punish N Ireland for this. Take away the huge burden that they are costing the UK tax payer, well that is what i hope the conservatives will do. Better they in the North reunite with the south and let them have the burden of a loss making Provence
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 00:36:58
Why are we not alowed to comment on the missing "Files" left on a train,?

Is it a case of,..

"That's another nice mess you got me into Oly".
5

Good Answer,

12/06/2008 00:41:10
4
Good Answer
6

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 00:57:39
#6 Transit!,
Ta for the Link! to which I left comment. :)
7

DouglasT,

12/06/2008 01:02:01
don't blame the DUP, they have probably (hopefully?) done a good deal for NI. Those to blame are Brown and his Westminster entourage - dwindling group :) - who initiated the deal and continue to use taxpayers' money for personal advantage. Much like his minion in Scotland. I don't think many people are still fooled.

Its time.
8

Huntly loon,

Aberdeensire 12/06/2008 01:20:17
And if Alex had only gone through the lobbies with Gordon we could have had an oil fund, a share of the oil windfall, council tax benefit for the LIT and support for the fishermen and hauliers. We missed a trick there.
Ah well we'll just have to do it the long way - independence. And we always thought Gordon Brown had principles.
9

TommyKaye,

UK 12/06/2008 01:21:38
From a website:

Alledgedly:

Downing Street is making out that it is on a knife edge tonight. In reality they have got it in the bag and are trying to set the ground for the "Gordon Wins" stories for which the Brownies think it is well worth tearing up the Magna Carta.

Congratulations are due to the honourable member for Glasgow central, Mohammed Sarwar, who has secured, as the price for his voting for 42 days detention, assurances that he can pass his seat down to his son. It seems the Labour Party was only against hereditary peers, but are more than happy with family seats for MPs..

More stories will unravel over the next few days
10

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 01:24:38

Well as a lad, People went to Switzerland and brought back,.

"The Cuckoo Clock"

Never in my Life would I believe we would all eventually live inside this wee house, with the Important Figures on the outside going,..

'Round and Round'!

Then,.."Cuckoo Cuckoo"!

'Aye' we now all live in "Cuckoo Land" !
11

Scott Webb.......,

12/06/2008 01:26:37
Cheery vid hinting at whats coming :)


http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2502830637471895940&hl=en
12

Col. Blimp­IV*,

12/06/2008 02:10:43
#14 Scott Webb.......,

Thanks...That cheered me up.
13

Scott Webb.......,

12/06/2008 02:12:31
Comment@15 Col BlimpIV, your very welcome :)
14

bring them on,

12/06/2008 03:56:50
Someone please tell me.

What is the significance of 42 days?

Is it full month, allowing for the poilce interrogators to have Saturday and Sunday off?
15

Scott Webb.......,

12/06/2008 05:12:25
I watched this one years ago, and its taken ages to find this up on the net ...Hidden wars of desert storm

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3804528229102317499&hl=en
16

Boy Wonder,

12/06/2008 05:37:53
The worst part of this is that it is an alleged Labour government bringing in this legislation, which you would normally expect from the Tories.

Which alternate reality are we in now?
17

Guga II,

Rockall 12/06/2008 05:47:35
The New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party lived up to their name, yet again. Bribery and corruption to buy votes for this Stalinist, totalitarian mob of control freaks.
18

bring them on,

12/06/2008 05:50:40
Brown is not really doing very well.

Is he
19

Jimmy the Pie,

12/06/2008 06:22:09
And all but one New Labour Sleaze North British Mp's cast aside any principle they might have had.

Scumbags every one!

Just another event to mark up onto the list of New Labour Sleaze scandals.

They won't be forgotten

20

Jimmy the Pie,

12/06/2008 06:39:58
I see Mohammad Sarwar voted with Comrade Broon on condition his son inherited the seat!!

Do the electorate have a say or is it all postal voting??
21

bring them on,

12/06/2008 06:51:51
I bet he's already working on his memoirs
22

Champion Haggis Slayer of Fife,

THE REPUBLIC OF SCOTLAND COMING YOUR WAY IN 2010 12/06/2008 06:57:48
Onward to Independence! Another vote catcher for the Tories in the bag! Thanks Gordon, you are doing a grand job. "Keep right on to the end of the road....... the juggernaut is becoming unstoppable"

THE REPUBLIC OF SCOTLAND COMING YOUR WAY IN 2010
23

Pilch,

12/06/2008 07:12:15
Labour backbencher Austin Mitchell said he had intended to vote against 42 days, but changed his mind and backed the Government in order to "save Gordon Brown for the nation".

"I support him and I think he would be on his way out if he had been defeated on this," Mr Mitchell told Sky News.

I'm speechless - overturning habeas corpus and tearing up the social contract for the short term gain of one tawdry politician. Contemptible.
24

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/06/2008 07:12:35
Sadly, Gordon and Alistair remain SNP's greatest secret weapons of mass destruction.
25

Black Five,

edinburgh 12/06/2008 07:19:15
Don`t see why you lot are not for it.Doesn`t matter how it was won it was the right thing.Any law that locks up these b....who would terrorise and kill us is alright by me.Lock them up for 142 days I say.
26

steve 1511,

aberdeen 12/06/2008 07:22:48
broon the liar and his stasi mps have reduced westminster to the status of a banana republic where democracy and votes are controlled by bribes,labour are known for liking a bribe or a bung
27

conservative,

Fife 12/06/2008 07:43:44
It's a difficult decision - should we allow a suspected terrorist to be detained for 42 days or should we just let another few dozen citizens be blown up by some fundamentalist thug? Difficult isn't it?
28

Graham Barnes,

Gravesend, Kent. 12/06/2008 07:48:08
Keeping party politics out of it, surely if the Government agreed to extend the period even further, say for a year, if it saves one life from the terrorists it should be adopted. Expecially in these days when the whole matter is getting more complex. There is an old saying about smoke and fire, and none of these people are locked up without reasonable suspicion.
29

Scott_B,

12/06/2008 07:51:21
30. conservative and 28 Black Five - at the point that 42 days is tearing someone's life apart, you don't know that they've done ANYTHING. You have no evidence. That's the point. For all you know, they're just an ordinary person - maybe you or a family member. The vast majority of people who are impacted by this are innocent.

If there is a problem that needs addressed by this legislation, it was caused by the buffoons we have in government. Is the solution to give them even more power to misuse? Of course not.

The real test will be once this lot has been kicked out and we have the next tory government - will they repeal this horrendous law? Unlikely...
30

11+failed,

the pans 12/06/2008 07:52:23
Apparently it cost £1.2bn for Gordon to increase the Tory and SNP vote at the next election. Every cloud has a silver lining!
31

jdships,

12/06/2008 07:53:52
19 Boy Wonder,

"The worst part of this is that it is an alleged Labour government bringing in this legislation, which you would normally expect from the Tories. "

Why from the Tories ?
Your point is ?

32

Iain Percival,

Den Haag 12/06/2008 07:54:00
The justification for this shameful erosion of civil liberties is to combat the threat of terrorism. I am at a loss then to understand why this excuse for a government will not commit the money required to properly equip our armed forces to combat the source and inspiration for the terrorist threat real out in the field. Just how much such equipment could have been purchased with the £2oo million bribe paid to the DUP? I almost cried when I read a comment from a senior police officer justifying the requirement for additional detention time. He said his officers had to sleep on the floor and not go home whilst working so hard within the current time constraints to secure evidence for a conviction. I am sure the troops in combat theatre will sympathise as they attempt to use cheap communication equipment to call for non existent helicopters as an alternative to travelling in poorly protected thin skinned vehicles. Oh yes, and the floor they will sleep upon when back at base (eventually) is unlikely to be a carpeted one.
33

Jimmy the Pie,

12/06/2008 07:56:30
#30 conservative,

Would a 42 day rule have prevented the Glasgow Airport attack???

Once you have worked it out, try lying down in a darkened
room for an hour or two (or 42)
34

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 12/06/2008 08:00:15
Why did so many Conservative MP's vote against legislation they wanted and would have voted for if it was a tory Government putting the bill forward? If David Davis and David Cameron were so set against this legislation and sure they were right, why were the Conservative whips out in force?

These dreadful tories now have to go back to their constituences and explain to their respective constituency parties why they voted against legislation that the tory party members wanted and the opinion polls showed that the UK wanted.

The usual mal-contents are complaining about civil liberties, what about MY civil liberty? My right to expect that the Government will do everything it can to protect me and my family? You people can go and live in your fantasy world of 1984 novels and conspiracy theories, the rest of us have to live in the real world.

#25. How do you expect Scotland to get independence when only 17% of eligible voters voted SNP at the last Scottish Parlilament election? Why is Salmond running scared of the referendum? How much more tax are you prepared to pay to subsidise the benefit scroungers of Strathclyde and the rural areas which currently get massive subisidies from Westminster?
35

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/06/2008 08:03:33
At least we have visibility of the 42 days and control over how it develops.If they did not get it then the security forces would simply have "rendered" captives somewhere they could have them for as long as possible.
36

Jam Tarts 1874,

On the Rebound 12/06/2008 08:04:52
#35. What rubbish! Terrorist are on the streets of the UK, no amount of military hardware is going to deal with that.

It amazes me that there are people like you who appear to believe that you know more about the security of the UK than the police and inteligence agencies.

#36. The police have already had to release a number of suspects after 27 days of detention, people that the police had some inteligence on. I sincerely hope that one of these released suspects blows up the next bus you are on.
37

paulr,

edinburgh 12/06/2008 08:19:48
Mark Lazarowicz, the Labour MP for Edinburgh North and Leith, had grave reservations about the proposal and had considered rebelling, but said: "I was given assurances that they do not expect the powers to be used."

I always knew this man was an idiot, and now he proves publicly just how niave or criminally incompetent he actually is
38

Iain Percival,

Den Haag 12/06/2008 08:21:51
Thank you No 39 for your thoughtful comments and hoping that all my journeys are safe ones.
I served with pride in the armed forces in a command position and remember fondly a great friend who died on active service in Northern Ireland as a result of a radio communication problem.
I do not pretend to be an expert on "homeland" security, but then many, many experts on the subject have argued with passion and knowledge against this proposal over the past few months. Perhaps you have not had the inclination to read or listen to them. Despite the tone of your comment, I presume you can read.
39

conservative,

12/06/2008 08:22:42
#36 Jimmy the Pie

Generally people who think that insults are the best response aren't worth responding to but anyway...

Does it matter if any single terrorist act wouldn't be caught by this (or any other) legislation? The point is to reduce the risk.

If you are so keen on the rights of thugs that you care so little about your own then perhaps you should care instead about the other innocents around you who need protection against the flood of brainwashed vermin who perpetrate these acts.
40

Jimmy the Pie,

12/06/2008 08:23:36
#40

Well said. You could have added criminally insane??
41

nineinro,

12/06/2008 08:28:28
Some countries such as Australia have less than a week to charge suspects and I would go along those lines as this legislation only gives the authorities more time to drag their feet. Charges should be instant and the cases also dealt with far quicker in courts.
42

Jimmy the Pie,

12/06/2008 08:32:17
#42

So Comrade Broon is going to protect us against a "flood of brainwashed vermin" with this ill thought out legislation is he??

Of course the 'vermin' won't be able to get an ID card when they are introduced?

You'll sleep easier then will you?

No doubt you'd be in favour of marshall law if Our dear Leader deemed it necessary to protect us against the 'vermin' flood?

Funny that the Lords (Conservative majority) will reject it, but then no doubt you'll think they are vermin too!

43

Jock ex 45Cdo RM,

THORNHILL 12/06/2008 08:41:36
We in the Upper House (a local tenement) will kick this proposal into touch.
44

Kick the pig party,

Stirling 12/06/2008 09:00:50
This is internment. Only 1 Scottish Labour MP(sic) voted against this scandalous and outrageous proposal. I'd like to see Tony B.Liar and Gordy Broon charged, not interred, for crimes against humanity and war crimes.
45

we willie winkie,

Wales 12/06/2008 09:11:12
Like most people in UK I agree with Gordon on this point, and if any of these vermin are guilty of suspected terrorist crimes against our country then we should bring back the death penalty and give them the treatment that they would have given us.

46

CRAGman,

12/06/2008 09:19:15
Almost all those posting above should get out and about a bit more. You're all eltitists. Get on to the shopfloor. Talk to the working class. They don't think 42 days are enough. And it's not just the working class - the middle classes too are largely in support. As are the public in general.

Accept the will of the people - the man is the street is glad of this new legislation.
47

John S,

12/06/2008 09:19:52
Congratulations Gordon now hold a general election and show the country that you can improve on the 66 seat majority which the Labour Party achieved when they got 35.3% of the total votes cast equating to approximately 22% of the electorate in the 2005 general election.
48

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 12/06/2008 09:26:03
14# What a load of old tosh...Modern governments are too stupid and greedy to form any sort of new world order. The only kind of new world order around today is when you buy a case of Sauvignon from south Africa or Australia...The fact is society is collapsing and the voters contempt for government is one of the symptoms...We are going the way of the MAYA...
49

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 12/06/2008 09:37:20
Locking up innocent people for 42 seconds, never mind days, is not what a truly democratic society does. That's why I'm a closet anarchist, but don't let on.
50

Cauchy Riemann,

Wales 12/06/2008 09:40:04
#48 et alia

I've no problem bringing back capital punishment - in fact I'm all for it.

The problem is that ordinary people need protection not just from criminals but from the state itself.

The old geezer who shouted rubbish at Jack Straw was arrested under the terrorism act. Legitimate and obviously non terrorist protestors have been targetted by this same act.

42 days sounds tough - but since when has Labour been 'tough on crime & the causes of crime'? They are letting offenders out early (one recently was let out early and raped someone the next day) - they are clueless about restoring discipline & respect in schools and in the wider community.

For most people it is crime that is the bigger concern than terrorism - and Labour are if anything encouraging it.

42 days is a tough sounding measure - but the 28 days has never even been used. So how is this measure tough? How is this measure going to actually do anything? It is simply fiddling about. And its fiddling about with the fabric of protection we enjoy from the state - which actually does nothing against crime or terrorism.

Take compulsory ID cards. This again would change the nature of the relationship between the individual & the state. Would compulsory ID cards stop terrorism? This was initially claimed by Labour who then went very quiet about it since it would never have stopped 7/7 and experts were lining up saying it would do nothing.

So Labour, incompetent and sleazy as ever, muck around changing the relationship between the individual & the state - looking 'tough'. But their 'toughness' does absolutely nothing - except inflate the power of the state.

51

11+failed,

the pans 12/06/2008 09:56:52
Our police are empowered to shoot terrorists. So far, no terrorists shot, but one entirely innocent electrician had 7 bullets pumped into his head while being held down.I wonder how this legislation will be implemented.
All these noisy pensioners at Labour Party conferences ought to be thinking carefully about how much noise they make.
52

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 12/06/2008 10:03:19
It is hard to imagine that someone needs to be detained even for 28 days on suspicion of terrorism, yet in all that time the police and the intelligence authorities do not find one piece of evidence to charge that person.

How then can the authorities be expected even to prosecute and secure a conviction without evidence? A further extension to 42 days is unlikely to produce any thing either, only the trigger of compensation of £3000 per day.

It could well be used by someone with a grudge or even just paranoid to have someone kept in detention for which no evidence will ever be uncovered which may well only drive that person into extremism.

Why of all the countries in the world do we require the longest period of detention without charge?
This country is fast becoming paranoid in everything that it does. We have more CCTV surveillance than any where else. E-mails and mobile phones are monitored. Mothers are scared to let their children walk to school. Health and safety control our every action. We are attempting to create a society where fear by everyone of everyone is becoming the norm. We cannot eliminate risk or dangers in our lives, but our government would have us believe that we can by abandoning the rights and safeguards that were hard won over the centuries.

We cannot exchange freedom for security for the truth is we will end up with neither.
53

Alan B,

12/06/2008 10:08:18
Cannot see brown lasting long now.

While this is reported as a victory it was done at too high a cost.

Bribing his own mps to vote for him shows 3 things:
1)they mps can be bought and have few principles
2)other mps are going to ask why they cannot get the consessions when they have been loyal
3)that the country is having to pay for these bribes and that looks bad.

Add to that he could not command support from the labour party to win without the DUP. That has significantly weakened him.

finally using the DUP and peace in ireland to win a vote is sinking so low. Will the republican side see this as consessions to the unionists in the north and they have been sold out. After getting so far with peace in NI to have such an explicit deal with the DUP is just stupid.

The DUP have now put themselves in a position where they will have alientated the tories who will make the next government. This legislation is unlikely to become law as it will fail in the lords. Even if it does the tories could just repeal it.

Laws like this really should be done with consensus or when u have the politcal wind behind u with a large majority not when it looks like u are going to be turfed out of office at the next election.
54

Deekie fae Midstocket,

Aberdeen 12/06/2008 10:23:53
Bribery and corruption: the hallmarks of the Unionist Labour Party. We edge ever nearer to a police state, but at least the Scots have a choice, if they have the guts to make it.
55

SouthernSkye,

Bonnie Bonn 12/06/2008 10:28:36
I have nothing against terrorists being detained and locked away for life.
I have a problem with people being held for 6 weeks without charge.
6 weeks where life, family and jobbusiness go down the pan (who pays the bills? The Mortgage etc?).

Suspicion is all well and good. I suspect G Brown will be pulverised come the next election, but it is only a suspicion. 6 weeks to gather evidence and detain someone without needing to charge them (tell them why they are being held) is outrageous.
There are comments on here about it saving "even one life". I understand your point but how many innocent lives could also be ruined?
Do you really think, if one is held for 6 weeks and then released without charge, that there will be no stigma associated with that?
This is a bad idea, simple as that. 28 days is more than enough to charge someone with an offence.
56

FLUB,

a rocky outcrop in eastern central Scotland 12/06/2008 10:59:18
This stinks to high heaven. There is so much to be concerned about in the whole thing, it's difficult to know where to start.

ACPO and their equivalent in Scotland is the biggest threat to civil liberties in the UK They have lobbied for xtension to 42 days. The purpose is ostensibly to gather evidence. By what means? Repeated interviews of the same questions over and over are regularly criticised in court. Is it to wear a suspect down? Remember, at this stage, someone is only a suspect. They can only be detained or arrested where there is reasonable cause to suspect.

Also, it is an offence against regulations for a Police Officer to take an active part in politics. By becoming a lobbying group, is ACPO and ACPOS contravening those regulations?

As for the DUP!!!

Stand down Gordon, stand down please, stand down Gordon.
57

Why can't I use my usual name?,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 11:15:46
Guilty until proven innocent.
58

Why can't I use my usual name?,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 11:16:17
Why not just bring back internment? That was a great success, wasn't it?
59

Ike,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 11:25:58
All it takes now is a plot or an event in which Sir Ian Blair, the Met police commissioner, praises the 42 day provision and the police state will be complete. Its opponents will be discredited; Broon will be a strong man of foresight in the tabloid fear agenda. Remember: Sir Ian lied about the police execution of the innocent de Menezes, where any honourable leader would have at least offered his resignation. When MPs demanded his resignation, he promptly arrested Lord Levy on the "cash for peerages" pretext. He secured his own future and immunity for his officers in return for backing down over Levy and others. Tony Blair gave this guarantee in the week before stepping down. Today Sir Ian enjoys more power, more money, more troops, more weapons and hardware, more surveillance cameras, more powers to stop and search, more personal data, more legal authority, more media influence - and less public scrutiny - than any police officer has ever had in our modern history. The Prime Minister is now entirely dependent on him to "guarantee" this dreadful erosion of our democratic freedoms. Meanwhile prices are soaring and values are falling. What else do you need to know?
60

bluehead,

edinburgh 12/06/2008 11:27:57
in this case the price was not right,there isn't anything that will save this labour mob from being booted out of office.
the pity is they continue to stink out this country,
what did poor old britain do to suffer such a bunch of bampots
61

Jock MacTamson 2,

Highlands 12/06/2008 11:33:51
Just not sure about this.

I hate Islamic Terrorists and would happily see them rot in jail but on the otherside I totally do not trust the direction the government is taking. So many snakes operating and with such a weak leadership in the labour party is causing some very questionable policies that the Torry party would be ashamed to put forward.

I think we are seeing the worst of control freak socialism and anti terrorism legislation from a bunch of sh!tebags in government.

They are more interested in Gesture Politics. Being seen to be dealing with the issue is more important than just dealing with the issue and solving the problem.

As for the police they cannot be trusted by their very nature, history and attitude. These laws will be abused and used on the population.

"The new detention powers would be used only in the face of a "grave, exceptional" threat to the UK"

Here is a thought. Scottish INDEPENDENCE as a cause would definately fit into that definition.

Nothing to worry about I am sure. We can trust labour.
62

lulach mac gille coemgain,

12/06/2008 11:34:31
And now Gordon Brown reffers to If anyone should Know about Terrorism it’s Northern Ireland - So Gordon - They are not Britain then ?

The Best way for Free thinking Scots to deal with this Fascist State - Leave it !

A more rounded and realistic thinking Independent Scottish Government is what we need!
63

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 11:43:25
19 Boy Wonder-exactly. Which begs the question-how much is Tory opposition down to principle and how much to cynical politicking? Also reinforces my contention that Thatcher Tories are long gone-there is little to chose between the Tories and NuLab now excepting that the tories give a fresher faced alternative.
52 Rules but etc.. Locking up "Innocent people.." the key word is 'innocent'. I intuitively believe,notwithstanding some past mistakes, that British police hold 42 day detainees with strong "balance of Probability" evidence-even beyond reasonable doubt stuff- it might though take time to gather the necessaries to bring a succesful prosecutions. I do not believe that the police would use this power lightly to hold persons without cause-to what end would they do that?
64

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 11:43:25
19 Boy Wonder-exactly. Which begs the question-how much is Tory opposition down to principle and how much to cynical politicking? Also reinforces my contention that Thatcher Tories are long gone-there is little to chose between the Tories and NuLab now excepting that the tories give a fresher faced alternative.
52 Rules but etc.. Locking up "Innocent people.." the key word is 'innocent'. I intuitively believe,notwithstanding some past mistakes, that British police hold 42 day detainees with strong "balance of Probability" evidence-even beyond reasonable doubt stuff- it might though take time to gather the necessaries to bring a succesful prosecutions. I do not believe that the police would use this power lightly to hold persons without cause-to what end would they do that?
65

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 11:48:37
None of you who criticise have come up with alternatives-just the usual holier than though,we are squeeky clean SNP solve evrything never-make -mistakes nonsense! Pity we cant escape the usual Punch and Judy politics and work without Party restraints for the best of the country.
66

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 11:51:57
66 Lulach-great example of my comments in 68-high on rhetoric,devoid of content-a "more rounded.. Scottish Government"??
67

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 11:53:10
should be "comments in 69"
68

yockel,

12/06/2008 11:56:36
What will it cost Gordo to bribe the DUP when the Lords chucks his Bill back at him?
69

Davie08,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 11:57:04
Geoff lord love your touching faith in the police. I would point out that the only real precedent for these powers were the South African police in the apartheidt era. There is a noble example to follow.
70

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 12:10:20
73 Davie 08-the SAP during apartheid were a fascist and sinister organisation who adopted wartime powers as they saw necessary to prop up the apartheid government. I do not think that this is a valid comparison to the Uk's Police Forces although obviously they have their weaknesses. What I am trying to say is that what possible utility could there be in the Met Police for eg detaining a person/persons unless they had some strong evidence that he might be involved in terrorism? Are you guys suggesting that British cops would detain people at awhim or gratuitously or from spite?
71

Boab,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 12:11:37
'A recent ICM poll found a majority of the public backed the idea of locking up terrorist suspects for up to 42 days.'

When he took over as PM, I was surprised Gordo wanted to pursue any policies left over from the utterly discredited 'war on terror' but this shows there's still votes to be had by flogging this particular dead horse.

What do you expect from Labour? Principles?
72

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 12/06/2008 12:14:13
#75

I don't get your point? You are saying thta the public agree with this yet crticising him for doing it.
73

Mikey,

12/06/2008 12:16:54
#37 & 39, I'm amazed you've fallen for this Liebour hogwash! The Lord Advocate sees no need for it and the various police across the UK see no need for it! Even the so called security services see no need for it! However, some Liebour sheep and some eejit in Gorgie/Dalry backs it against all the evidence!

Retreat into the corner and say BAAAA very loudly!
74

Ike,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 12:18:09
74 Geoff

Yes.
75

Boab,

Glasgow 12/06/2008 12:18:09
#74 Geoff:'Look sunshine, we know perfectly well that selling cannabis supports Al-Qaeda, which makes you a terrorist suspect. Whether you're guilty or not, we've got you for the next six weeks. If you want to see your family, you'd better sign.'

(Maybe I've been watching too much 24, lol.)
76

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 12:24:47
78 Ike-if that is a real comment I am genuinely surprised. I had always thought of the Brit cops as the good guys-Dixon of Dock Green-allo,allo,allo and all that. I think though that u exagerate.

79 Boab-in this country not much changes-the SAPS are not as brutal as they were but they are often drunk on duty and sell cannabis themselves-well some of them!
77

Davie08,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 12:28:12
74 Geoff 'Are you suggesting that British cops would detain people at a whim or from spite?' Birmingam six Guildford four Paddy Meehan &c. I think on refection if you re-read your post you might recognise one or two other flaws in your argument. You state that SA adopted wartime powers in reaction justified by what they described as a terrorist threat. Is not the UK government using precisely the same arguments for broadly similar powers? The simple fact remains that you do not defend the liberies of a state by eroding those liberies.
78

Davie08,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 12:30:02
Ops should read Liberties
79

yockel,

12/06/2008 12:30:24
#80 Geoff, Get real. The MET shoot folk for target practice!
80

kimba,

12/06/2008 12:35:13
Brown has played into the terrorists hands,he has done as they wanted,he has stiffled the uk's freedoms,even the u.s.a. are not this draconian.
81

Calum Crubag,

12/06/2008 12:39:46
So Labour needs the votes of Orange Unionist bigots in 'Ulster' to force through legislation that is so authoritarian that even the Tories didn't want it.

Another argument for independence.
82

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 12:41:27
81 Davie08- Inasmuch as the term has a precise(ish) meaning, i am a democrat but as i have said before democracy has to deal with a built in paradox-how does it deal with dictators,fascists,extremists of left and right and fanatics? Sometimes democracy has to suspend itself in order to preserve itself. The regulation of this is the big problem-how do we do this- I dont have the answer-do you gys? The example I have used previously is-do you allow extremists do freely operate and propogate their philosophies-liberal democrats have to say yes to this question but in essence they are saying yes to those that would destroy them. The answer-u guys tell me.
83

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 12:45:21
85 Calum Crubag-everything is an argument for independence as far as you are concerned!
Also heard that Alex Salmond has a good relationship with Ian Paisley. Pact with the devil Calum?
84

kimba,

12/06/2008 12:51:33
85. And salmond isn't a "bigot",LOL!
85

Davie08,

Edinburgh 12/06/2008 12:56:36
86 'Democray has to suspend itself in order to preserve itself' Well there is an oxymoron. Democracy I think you will find has been under threat since its inception not least from those who advance argumnets such as yours. If 'security' is placed above the basic tenets of a free society then that way fascism lies. Reichstag fire? I happen to believe that democracy and the right of the ciizen to be free from arbitrary arrest are the basis of a free society and that society is more robust than either you or Gordon Browm appear to think. You defend those principles by adhereing to them not by abrogating them.
86

Geoff,

sa 12/06/2008 13:07:49
90 Davie 08-an oxymoron indeed but a paradoxicall truth. An example-the ultimate example of what I am trying to say-the waging of War-The UK had to suspend its democracy in order to defeat Hitler. I agree with you in principle-the basic tenets of a free society must be preserved -but if you are facing those that do not play to your rules, how do you deal with them? You have not answered the question. We live in an imperfect world-if a fanatic murders innocents indiscriminately on the promise of FOR EXAMPLE martyrdom and an endless supply of Virgins and you have reasonable cause to strongly suspect certain persons then you can either detain them pending further investigation or allow them the freedom to kill and maim further whilst you seek evidence beyond reasonable doubt? Surely in these circumstances academic adherence to ideal world principles