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Published Date: 23 April 2009
DRIVERS, drinkers and high-earners are the victims of what has been termed the gloomiest Budget since the Second World War, as Chancellor Alistair Darling set out measures he claimed would help young job-seekers and pensioners.
In a move that will anger motorists, he announced a surprise 2p hike per litre of fuel from September. The autumn rise comes on top of a 1.8p rise that came into effect this month.

Mr Darling insisted that, despite the economic downturn, the government would pursue its policy of redistribution, as he outlined plans to help the elderly whose pensions had been hammered by low interest rates, and the jobless.

He then broke a Labour manifesto commitment by imposing a new rate of income tax: 50 per cent for those on £150,000 or more. "Even in this time of global economic difficulty, we are determined to continue building a fairer society," he said.

Although the revenue raised will be outstripped by massive borrowing, the Chancellor set out how his policies would help the less fortunate.

The under-25s who are out of work for a year or more were promised a job, training or paid work experience. Mr Darling said the government was determined not to return to the days when a whole generation of young people found themselves "abandoned to a future on the scrapheap".

Child tax credits would go up by £20, with additional help for children with disabilities.

Reflecting the soaring unemployment figures, he also unveiled plans for higher statutory redundancy pay, which will go up from £350 to £380 a week.

Mr Darling also offered help to pensioners with "modest" savings, who have been hit by the record low interest rates.

He unveiled plans to increase the capital disregard limit on Pension Credit from £6,000 to £10,000 from November, which will allow pensioners to have more in savings before their level of help is reduced. The decision will see the 5.5 million pensioner households with savings of less than £10,000 gain an extra £4 a week on average.

Grandparents who are under retirement age, but who care for grandchildren will have their efforts counted against their entitlement to a basic state pension.

The winter fuel allowance will be maintained at the higher level of £250 for over-60s and £400 for over-80s for another year.

Other eye-catching measures included a 2 per cent above inflation rise on alcohol duty. According to the Treasury, the rise, effective from midnight last night, put 1p on a pint of beer or cider, 4p on a bottle of wine and 13p on a bottle of spirits. An angry Scotch Whisky Association said the rise was a blow to the industry "at the worst possible time".

Smokers were hit by a rise of 7p on 20 cigarettes.

As well as the new 50 per cent top tax for those taking home more than £150,000 a year, workers will also see their personal tax allowance reduced by £1 for every £2 earned over £100,000.

This would equate to an annual rise in tax of £2,790 for anyone earning £113,950 – or £233 extra a month, according to Grant Thornton accountants.

Opposition parties warned that more pain was to come for basic-rate taxpayers, as the hikes on high-earners could offset only a tiny proportion of the ballooning national debt, forecast to reach nearly 80 per cent of national income by 2013.

There was also a warning on the impact of scrapping pensions relief for higher earnings.

Marcus Hurd, head of corporate solutions at Aon Consulting, said the measure was likely to backfire and lead to a drop in revenue for the Treasury.

"The legislation could fail to generate any tax revenues, as those earning above £150,000 can circumvent this through salary sacrifice," he explained. "If this were to happen, the government would also lose out on National Insurance contributions."

There was help for the beleaguered car manufacturing industry. Mr Darling confirmed a heavily trailed scrappage programme, which would pay owners of cars more than ten years old up to £2,000 towards the purchase of a new car.

In other measures, the government is pledging £1 billion to boost the housing market, including an extension on tax exemptions for house purchases at the lower end of the market. For businesses, it is extending the timeframe to allow loss-making companies to reclaim taxes for the past three years, and doubling the main capital allowance rate to 40 per cent to encourage firms to bring forward investment programmes.

The announcement that will have the biggest impact will be the fuel price rise for motorists.

On top of the 2p per litre rise in September, drivers will face a 1 per cent above inflation rise in April for the following four years.

This will generate £3.6 billion in extra taxes for the Treasury over the next three years – £660 million more than Mr Darling's 50 per cent tax rate for people earning more than £150,000 a year.

The RAC said the increase in petrol and diesel prices was a "brutal blow for motorists".

AA president Edmund King said: "Drivers will be delighted that a scrappage scheme has been given the green light, but they will be furious that Mr Darling has landed a fuel duty bombshell to pay for it."

He went on: "In petrol alone, the UK consumes 64.5 million litres a day. A 2p rise in prices produces £1.3 million extra tax a day, or nearly £475 million over a year. So petrol sales alone will more than pay for scrappage."

the Liberal Democrats' Scotland spokesman, Alistair Carmichael, said: "It is also disappointing that this government is still not taking action on a fuel discount scheme for those in rural areas."



Sketch: Move over, Darling, at least the high Tory can get the doomed to smile

IT WAS to be the most apocalyptic Budget for more than half a century. The catastrophic words turmoil, crisis, collapse were all set to go off like grenades. Alistair Darling, dubbed Mogadon Man for his boring delivery last year, was now the Grim Reaper. By the end of the his speech, the nation would be reaching for Prozac.

With a skittish inflection, the Chancellor spent nearly half of his 50-minute speech outlining the state of the world economy, the IMF forecasts and the G20 action, as MPs shuffled in their seats.

The ashen faces of Labour MPs and Gordon Brown's remaining special advisers said it all. Even Lord Mandelson, surveying the Commons scene from his lofty perch in the gallery above – he who told Britain to "cheer up" last week – looked like he wanted to throw himself off.

The mood of the House of Commons was edgy and depressed. MPs braced themselves for the latest onslaught of bad news. The Tories looked as worried as their Labour counterparts as they wondered whether the figures would be bad enough for them to try to throw the election.

Then came the statistics – like machine gun fire, they hit everyone in the guts and stuck in the craw. The Chancellor ran through them with the speed of a caller at a cattle auction.

And little wonder he did not want to dwell on them: the economy was set to contract by 3.5 per cent this year alone, he admitted, drawing gasps and whistles from both sides of the House.

But it was not all doom in the chamber. There were widespread guffaws and merriment when Mr Darling suggested the economy would recover by 2010 – yes, next year – to grow by 1.25 per cent.

Perhaps like the way Japan recovered after Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Britain too will rise from the ashes once it has been levelled to the ground.

The roars, cheers and jeers in the chamber on Budget day are usually deafening. Yesterday, the news was greeted with the deafening silence.

It fell to David Cameron, the Tory leader, to breathe life into the Commons corpse, managing the perfect balance between anger and swagger. If the Chancellor was the undertaker, DC was the comedian.

"The Chancellor told us about his scrappage scheme. Let me see if I can get this right. You take something ten years old, completely clapped out, it pumps out hot air, pollutes its surroundings – it is absolutely ripe for the knacker's yard. What a brilliant idea."

Poring over the figures, he said: "Let's turn to the IMF – he may have to."

He demolished the Chancellor's Budget forecasts with the confidence of an Old Etonian. Note to Ma and Pa: money well spent.

What was the point of another 14 months of the government of the "living dead", he asked, as MPs from the benches opposite blinked at him like zombies.

The only colour in the chamber came from the purple robes of the Bishop of Carlisle. The reason for his attendance was clear: he was in the Commons to read the damned their last rites.



BUDGET 2009: FULL COVERAGE

Slideshow: The Budget in graphics

Darling bounces UK deep into debt

Britain to sink into £1 trillion debt hole next year

Analysis: Chancellor's projections for growth a real gamble

Swinney says cuts will lead to loss of 9,000 jobs

Energy: Boost for North Sea fields is welcomed but detail needed

Whisky: Few cheers as duty rise comes at the worst time, say whisky leaders

Leader: Wait-and-see Budget shows lack of leadership

Cartoon by Iain Green

The full article contains 1597 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 23 April 2009 12:12 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The Budget
 
1

RufusT-Firefly,

23/04/2009 00:13:44
Cynicus, you beat me to that one!
2

RufusT-Firefly,

23/04/2009 00:14:29
Happy St George's Day Cynicus.
3

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 23/04/2009 01:04:12
well the good thing from this budget, is the terminal illness of the labour party. only question now how many numpties are left that will still vote for this party of hypocrites! SNP's 20 MP's in this june's general election looking good!
4

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/04/2009 01:30:05
With the thawing of the Arctic a big Russian landing fleet slips round Norway behind Bush's ballistic Maginot line to the aid of Middle England while China feints invading New Zealand to cause a televised distraction.

The Pictish Confederacy rise in the East, West, North and South.
5

Edward,

23/04/2009 01:50:47
#7 tartangladbach
Right sentiments, but wrong year for general election, unless of course you know something
This June is the EU Elections and likely all the Labour MEP's will be wiped of the face of the map!
Later at the General Elections, there is speculation based on strong polling that the SNP will return 30 to 35 MP's
Scotlandonly has 7 MEP's, two of which are Labour, here' to them being defeated!
6

hoblar,

23/04/2009 01:54:00
Well, the Russian Navy hold Samuel Grieg in extremely high regard, so perhaps the Picts would have the Russians on board, seeing that 60 Russian sailors unveiled a memorial to him at his birthplace in Inverkeithing!
7

,

23/04/2009 02:15:38
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8

Alec M,

Falkirk 23/04/2009 04:00:55
Jesu Kriste!! Will someone remove that damned Citreon car advert at the top right of these pages??????????????
9

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/04/2009 04:07:46
I reckon confederacy is the best system humans have thought up to organise society v. empires, tyrannies, destitutional monarchies, and the current spate of oligarchies. It seems fractal and scalable as is universal structure. Picts arrived from the East and West (Scotti) and pretty much make up contemporary Scotland. It's the substrate from picts with ships and picts with horses. Whence we get technology and agriculture.

And Inverkeithing as the cockpit of the planet. If we could put our hideous barbaric past behind us we'd become a space-faring people. Item 2: global warming; it isn't. The previous warming of the heliosphere, which we could have used to advantage instead of fighting 2 world wars and are still at it, has ended its cycle. We don't have the knowledge to predict though we're fairly lucky with a sophisticated self regulating electric (as they all are) sun.
10

redcliffe62,

23/04/2009 04:34:42
when was the last time a labour government left the country in better shape than it took it over, if ever?
rufus and co, any idea? certainly not this side of the vietnam war.
11

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/04/2009 06:54:38
What's the shape of the Country? Neo-feudalism - about the worse state possible!

Though it depends on where you sitting, I suppose, and how you confract your various experiences.

But say you were a house builder with various new projects, extensions, conversions. The job's interesting and I'm making good money from it. The country would look in reasonable shape. Which may be more a minority view.

Old Labour had some merits but critical deficiencies. That was the past. Today there's no UK party representing working people of usual decencies and faults. No understanding on how to get to grips with running a country.

I see no purpose in continuing with the UK set up.
12

Big Dave Fae The Rigs,

The De'ils awa wae the Excise Man 23/04/2009 07:19:53
Get ready for a mass exodus, just like the one in the 60s

The people Darling needs to lift the country out of the recession will leave in droves.

As Labour sow So shall we be taxed

TO PAY FOR TRHE TRILLIONS OF DEBT
13

Jimmy Le Pie,

23/04/2009 07:41:49
I think we'll start seeing the blading of Comrade Broon by his 'loyal' backbenchers who are cr@ping themselves about the next election.

The required stalking donkey will be led out in around a month, but Our Dear Leader won't go quietly!!!

Should be funny if it wasn't so sad.

All this economic misery just so one man's wish to be PM could be granted.
14

Linda,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 08:03:28
Where are the strident articles and editorials from Scotland on the increse of tax rate buy 25% increase in tax for the super rich?

I do remember the daily tirade by journalists and Labour placemen about a little Local Income Tax difficulty of 3% increase for the very rich
15

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 08:04:09
Alistair Darling says -
"We will make £5 billion of government savings, no details available you will just have to trust us on this one.
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will also make proportionate government savings, you can trust us on this one as we will deduct the money at source."
16

Dave From Barra,

Western Isles 23/04/2009 08:04:25
Happy Peppercorn Day Everybody!
17

Tynietiger,

23/04/2009 08:23:24
Heard John Swinney on Radio Scotland. He is right UK government should scrap Trident replacement and ID cards rather than cutting the Scottish budget.

An efficiency saving by Westminster goes to London Treasury to spend on other things but an efficiency saving in Scotland (is a cut) goes to London Treasury despite latest GERS report proving Scotland was in surplus last year
18

Slioch,

Scottish Highlands 23/04/2009 08:33:40
#12 Alec M

Hint: Firefox Adblock.
19

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 23/04/2009 09:07:22
Most of the pain of course lies the other side of the election date except for very high earners who will be packing their bags if they have any sense. This is Brown revealed in his full vindictive Old Labour stupidity.
20

,

23/04/2009 09:09:13
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21

WL,

Livingston 23/04/2009 09:27:29
Does the increase of 2p in the price of fuel include VAT? If not the increase is 2.3p per litre. Mr Darling, why can you not be honest about this.
22

Elethiomel,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 09:28:06
#9 30-35? Can we place a bet or something? There have been some stupid figures baded around regarding how many MPs the SNP will win but that one is truly ridiculous.

They didn't even manage an overall majority using PR at a Scottish election and now you think they are going to get one for Scotland under FPP.

I think everyone thinks they'll win a few but even 20 would be a minor miracle (for them), quoting 30-35 is just deluded.
23

Bigwull,

edinburgh 23/04/2009 10:00:14
DAMN STUPID HEADLINE Scotsman Newspapers
24

Bigwull,

edinburgh 23/04/2009 10:01:22
25 unfortunately the Tories will benefit, if you think this lot are bad for us
25

,

23/04/2009 10:04:17
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26

Bigwull,

edinburgh 23/04/2009 10:07:24
14 when was the last time any government left the country (and by that term I take it you mean you) in better shape, thats why they get voted out, remember this world recession was caused by globalisation and greed of a few. Not that I'm defending the prats in power now, but I can guarantee you things would be much worse for the ordinary person if the other lot were in charge.
27

,

23/04/2009 10:22:08
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28

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 10:24:43
In the post-War period, every single UK Government, Labour or Tory, has always ended in tears, and this one will be no different.

Like taxes and death, one thing is a certainty, any future Tory (or Labour) government will end in exactly the same way!

Did anyone seriously believe that, the excesses of the Thatcher Years compounded by the chaos of the past 10 years, could continue indefinitely?

Hopefully, the Tories will receive a poison chalice of national debt which will curtail any future irresponsibility.

However, it will eventually bring them down and, after electing another Government, we will begin the whole sorry process of decline all over again!

29

Queen D,

Glasgow 23/04/2009 10:38:16
Thanks to Guido I found an article in the Australian describing the awful state of Britain today.
Really disturbing stuff written by Hal.G.P.Colebatch.
The rest of the world seems singularly unimpressed with this government and the UK.
30

,

23/04/2009 10:40:16
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31

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 10:48:50
#33:

The country is in this mess because of one reason and one reason only... STUPID LABOUR.

Every single time the electorate has been idiotic enough to vote this shower of incompetent morons into power, they have turned Britain into a train wreck by the time they are finally pushed out.

The Tories will inherit a poison chalice. They always do once the mandate to stupid labour to wreck things runs out. Then they set about bringing stability and growth---until such time as a couple of them commit a few misdemeanours in their personal lives, then the people turn to stupid labour once again, thinking they are doing the right thing but conveniently forgetting about the degree of incompetence associated with them.

"Did anyone seriously believe that, the excesses of the Thatcher Years... ...could continue indefinitely?"

No. Of course not. However, during the Thatcher years, we had real growth. OK, iut wasn't without the occasional hiccup, but under Thatcher, and later under Major, real, tangible money was being made. Under Blair and later Brown, all that was happening was that debt was increasing. It looked like growth to the layman, but in actual fact, we were all living (literally) on borrowed money.

Had they been prepared to actually think and take action, stupid labour could have protected us from the worst of this global recession, but because they ARE stupid, they decided to blindly follow the example set by the USA.
32

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 23/04/2009 11:00:07
-- remember this world recession was caused by globalisation

When it was discovered that you could sail round the world, globalisation has always been a feature and probably the main feature of global economics. For hundreds of years. You might as well say that Sputnik caused the weaponisation of space, the space station, the super stealth bomber and of course the world recession.

It's like applying an "unknown force" to events that are perfectly explicible by plasma physics to every strange and unforseen item in the Universe now discovered by the Hubble telescope and unmanned space probes. For plasma and plasma electomagnetic effects are 99.9% of observed space.

Not every community even in Scotland is suffering a world recessions. Some nations, even are on the up.

Meanwhile the 5 (is it?) of Big Oil are posting record profits and Haliburton Inc having successfully looted America for 8 years has moved its HQ to Dubai.

The first question is: to whose benefit is this global recession while we examine it. For it had to be manmade and pre-planned, don't you think?
33

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 11:19:40
#30 My goodness, you've absolutely lost it, they have absolutely no hope of returning 30 MPs, not a prayer.
34

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 11:28:43
The Hootsman appears to have fallen out of love with ZanuLabour. I bet they will be sniffing around the Tories next.
35

Big Dave Fae The Rigs,

23/04/2009 11:35:06
# 22

Have there been any cuts to the Olympic Village gravy train, and has Tyneside benefited from it?

Tony Blair stated that winning the right to hold the Olympics would benefit Britain

Read London for Britain, same old story them and us.

"To be born English is to win first prize in the lottery of life."

Aye if you are one of the 5 per cent who hold 90% of the wealth..

36

Big Dave Fae The Rigs,

23/04/2009 11:35:55
# 38

Try Ladbrokes other betting section
37

,

23/04/2009 11:38:03
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38

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 11:40:02
27 A lot has changed since May 2007. 20+ seats may be eminently achievable.
39

,

23/04/2009 11:41:54
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40

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 23/04/2009 12:04:33
This can't be right ? a negative story about Labour in the Scotsman.
41

John1,

Stirling 23/04/2009 12:17:21
36: Couldn't have put it better myself. We need a new Maggie Thatcher - and can we please have the Community Charge back? Despite Labour propaganda (the only thing they are any good at) it was a much fairer tax than the Rates. Tory support in Scotland fell AFTER replacing the Community Charge with the Council Tax (the old rating system in all but name). If society was fairer we would not see so many of the productive people emigrating.

42: I agree with you on the south-east-centric issue. Until the parties become aware that there is life north of Watford there will always be support for the SNP (and the BNP). Why don't MPs representing the rest of the UK speak up for their own areas and against this attitude? The separatists might like to consider that if the UK split up we would have Brown and his ilk returning to Scotland. Now there's a thought.
42

,

23/04/2009 12:26:02
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43

Arfur,

23/04/2009 12:49:27
Stupid Labour keeping saying they want to help small businesses - if thats the case - why the h*ll do they keep raising fuel?
44

Andy Ritchie's left boot,

23/04/2009 12:53:18
46: Brown wouldn't dare return to Scotland. He would be lined up against a wall and shot for treason.
45

,

23/04/2009 13:02:19
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46

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 13:06:43
46 John 1
I think you are the third (or possibly more) person on these threads in the last day or so who has said that we need another Maggie Thatcher. I heard the same sentiment expressed by a couple of men in the pub the other day.

One can see why people feel this. As I have pointed out, Labour are going to take national debt to 80% of GDP (if not more). Maggie Thatcher left office in 1990 with national debt at just 26% of GDP. She left a legacy of a sound, healthy fiscal postion. Labour will leave a legacy of huge debt which will be a severe burden on future generations.
47

John1,

Stirling 23/04/2009 13:09:57
47. The Maggie comment was mine. We need someone like her to sort out the problems. The present lot of politicians are not concerned with sorting the present situation, they just want to get re-elected. At times of crisis politicians should listen to Churchill. "Trust the people" he said. In 1940 they did trust him, even though he promised 'blood, sweat and tears'. They knew that was necessary. They chucked him out in 1945, but circumstances had changed by then.
Before any Labour fans (there must be a few - it takes all sorts) start on about Labour bringing in the NHS etc, most post-war policies like that were decided during the war by the National (coalition) government and would have been brought in whoever won the 1945 election.
49. Where would he go? The English wouldn't want him, or his mates.
48

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 13:10:31
50 Quisling Gogs

This happens regularly. Overall budgets are set for future years with a continual increase built in. When changes are made the level of increase might be cut back.

It depends on how you look at it. You can say that the budget is still "increasing" or you can say that the annual increase has been "cut"
49

,

23/04/2009 13:10:32
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50

,

23/04/2009 13:20:08
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51

John1,

Stirling 23/04/2009 13:20:28
51. I'm 71 shortly, so I am unlikely to be around when (if) the debt is cleared, even if I live to be 100. My children have emigrated, like a lot of productive people. Who does that leave? Labour supporters? I weep for my country/countries - UK and Scotland. Who will the whingers so prevalent in Scotland blame for their troubles if the UK breaks up? Is the present situation a 21st century Darien? Who did they blame for that?
52

The west awake,

Argyll 23/04/2009 13:26:06
Quizling - "No Nobel prize for mathematics this year I'm afraid Iain."

- In Labourland, if Tony Blair can be a a middle east peace envoy, then a £500m cut CAN be an increase.

The Labour spin machine has left earth's orbit.
53

Galvatron,

23/04/2009 13:26:35
#42: "Sadly for the regions of England that have the least choice ,hence the rise and rise of BNP in England and nowhere else in UK."

You'd better not be saying that the reason Scots don't vote for the BNP is that they already have a Nationalist party of their very own...
54

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 13:37:41
54/55
I cannot accept the analysis. It is a trite and facile point to say that Brown is just another Maggie Thatcher.

Gordon Brown may have sold off one or two things but, in reality, he is a tax and spend (or should that be tax, borrow and spend) politician who believes in big government and high levels of state involvement in peoples lives.

That is the very antithesis of Maggie Thatcher.

"Every action and every policy could just as easily have been a Tory government"

Do you believe that the Tories would have introduced Harriet Harman's "equality" legislation and similar measures, encouraged universities to take kids from comprehensives in preference to those with better grades from private schools, doubled spending on NHS and education, introduced educational maintenance allowances increased the tax on the wealthy by 25%, taxed pension plans, etc etc etc.

That is the very antithesis of Maggie Thatcher.
55

,

23/04/2009 13:42:14
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56

steve52,

Kinfauns 23/04/2009 13:56:36
I wish some of you would stop saying 'CUTS'. Its NOT cuts but efficiancy savings........

Andy Kerr and Labour have finally shown their true colours....sell off assets! Watched him on TV last night, terrible as all he did was attack the SNP which is the only policy Labour has.

At least if he loses his seat he could get a part in River City as the local thug......he certainly fits the bill.

Of course petrol increases are good for the country especially in such a crisis. Keep Joe Public off the road.

Why increase tax on those earning over £150.000 ? Were I earning that amount I would simply ask my employer for a wage cut, sorry efficiancy saving, of £1 which would bring me under the new 50% tax rate.

I might buy a new car. First I would pop down the local scrap yard and buy a banger for a few quid then trade it in for a couple of grand......big fiddles to be made here folks.

Brown, Darling, Murphy all dead men walking.

' we have detected some potentially unsuitable words in your post....n*p' REally!!!!!???
57

Galvatron,

23/04/2009 14:15:26
#61 steve: " Why increase tax on those earning over £150.000 ? Were I earning that amount I would simply ask my employer for a wage cut, sorry efficiancy saving, of £1 which would bring me under the new 50% tax rate."

Not many employess earn that amount, so you'd be more likely to be a self employed business man or partner in a successful law firm or other professional business.

The only real option is the pension route, but Darling's wise to that one already. However, I'd be interested to hear if anyone else knows how the self employed will avoid the 50%.
58

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 14:24:51
62 Its actually worse than that. If you earn over £100k, you will start to lose your tax allowance. It ramps out altogether at a salary (and bonus) of £112,500.
59

Richard Lionheart,

23/04/2009 14:25:47
I’d say MAN THE LIFE BOATS, but I believe that the IMF may be negotiating a”floating”charge!
60

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 14:26:37
62 "However, I'd be interested to hear if anyone else knows how the self employed will avoid the 50%"

One way would be to become non resident in the UK for all but 90 days per year. I can see this happening.
61

,

23/04/2009 14:27:00
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62

,

23/04/2009 14:34:29
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63

redcliffe62,

23/04/2009 14:36:02
some good arguments here. i guess cogent thoughts are possible when people in general are not voting in support of a party as much as voting for the one that is the least worst. for them and the country.
that is now the best (only) option for many people.
fear of tories and the snp jas lessened after this labour disaster, although i cannot see more than 20% in scotland ever putting an x on the their ballot. too much lies and deceit. a complete apology is needed, admitting they were looking after london and not scotland is needed, with a legislated promise to change their spots, before most people could take them seriously.
the lying liars are still lying.
64

Galvatron,

23/04/2009 14:47:32
#65 connaught: good suggestion, but I think it's only seriously wealthy millionaires who (such as the Nats' very own Sir Sean) who take the tax exile route.

#67 Union: " take anything ver £149k a year in stock and pay 18% tax on capital gains"

Good suggestion again, but surely anyone able to take payment in stock is already doing this to avoid 40%; I doubt if the rise to 50% will lead to a significant increase in those taking the stock option.
65

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23/04/2009 14:52:54
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66

Davie08,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 14:58:15
#64 Richard I think Gordon sold the life boats some time ago.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 14:59:02
70 the unionmustgo

The Laffer Curve I believe.
68

vorlic,

LANARK 23/04/2009 15:05:28
GET THE PIGS SNOUT OUT OFF THE TROUGH.PULL OUT OF AFGHANASTAN,STOP TRYING TO BE THE POLICEMAN OF THE WORLD,SCRAP TRIDENT BLOCK TAX LOOPHOLES,GIVE THE COUNTRY BACK TO ITS CITIZENS.CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME STOP GRANTS TO PEOPLE,GOVERNMENTS AND COUNTRIES THAT WHANT TO WIPE US OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH.CONTROL MULTI NATIONAL COMPANIES AND YOU MAY SAVE US ALL FROM POVERTY.
69

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 15:06:41
#44 Data, past election results, recent ones, not being a fantasist.

Overcoming incumbency is a massive battle, especially against the Lib Dems, traditionally the Nationalists score low in UK elections, you are up against more viable alternatives that are dug in better, but most importantly of all even if the national vote went with the highest poll you have ever posted in recent times (Sunday Times/YouGov 3 Sep 08 - 5 Sep 08 1,355 17 32 13 34), which it won't because of all the reasons stated above, you still would not win nearly 30 seats.

In fact if you were to take the average poll, you would only win SEVEN SEATS IN TOTAL - (1 Jan 06 - 13 Mar 09 16,550 18.0 35.8 12.9 28.9 = CON 4 (+3), LAB 42 (+1), LIB 6 (-5), NAT 7 (+1).)

Now I think you might do a bit better than that, but you cannot go from that to winning 30+ seats. What they hell are people voting for if they vote SNP in the UK elections anyway? In real terms? An SNP campaign at a general election is essentially a romantic one, the can’t do all that much down there so it’s all about either sending a message to Brown on his running of the country or independence. I’m not saying that that has no merit if you agree with either of those ideas but good luck winning an overall majority FPP on it when you can’t even do that with a policy based (cough, cough) campaign for a Scottish Election.



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Stuart505,

Dubai 23/04/2009 15:13:44
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25361297-21147,00.html
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 15:16:07
74 Cher

"What they hell are people voting for if they vote SNP in the UK elections anyway?"

Independence?
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23/04/2009 15:17:57
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73

Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 15:21:41
#76 Yeah I get that (and also said it). But when you vote for it at a Westminster election you're essentially voting for an idea. You can't hope to back it up in policy terms because you are never going to have enough MPs to even cause that much of a stir down there (The Lib Dems have ten times as many, and even they have problems).

That's a very hard sell for a general election, protest voters are more likely to vote for someone who has a chance of doing something a bit more dramatic (Tories, maybe Lib Dem) or an incumbent (which is where Labour to an extent, but particularly the Lib Dems benefit).


If you need proof look at every general election result ever.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 15:24:40
#78 I think you miss your own point. If the SNP tend to do worse in UK General Elections, what a powerful message it would be if the Scottish electorate put the SNP into more than 50% of the Scottish Westminster seats. It has nothing to do with having a majority in the House of Commons.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 15:27:11
#78 "If you need proof look at every general election result ever"

I think your definition of "proof" differs from the generally accepted one.
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 15:30:24

#77 It might be arrogance but it's arrogance based on statistics, your the one who is now resorting to hearsay. What you have said is not stuff that's been omitted from my poll data, its just stuff you have added from experience. That doesn’t make it invalid but you cannot simply ignore that stuff when it benefits other parties and make a massive play on it when it benefits your own. In the end it comes back to the figures, and there they are.

Enjoy waiting for people to die, I'll spend my time trying to find a bookies that will take my bet on there not being 30 Nationalist MPs (I’ve heard they don’t like giving money away).
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 23/04/2009 15:32:55
#78 Here is a statement based upon your logic.

(April 2007)

"The SNP will never win power in Scotland. If you want proof just look at every Scottish election result ever"

Hey presto, we have an SNP Government the month after.
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 15:36:57
#79 Still just a message though, that’s the hard sell, what do they actually get? How can they hope to get an overall majority in FPP just on that message when they couldn’t get one with PR on that message and policy? It boggles the mind.

And what’s your definition of proof, do the Nationalists do brilliantly at general elections? do Lib Dem incumbents do badly? are people less likely to vote for UK wide parties at general elections? Everything I have said is accepted fact. Look it up if you fancy.
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IainGlasgow,

23/04/2009 15:37:43
#75

Hardly a mention of events such as these in the UK press. Probably because it would get their editors prosecuted. Thank God (or to be PC should I say thank Allah?!) for the worldwide web.
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 15:40:31
#82 That's not what I'm saying though, I'm that based on how they are polling they do not have a prayer of winning 30 MPs at the next general election. They key phrase is BASED ON HOW THEY ARE POLLING, while theunionmustgo is going with "based on some stuff I think."
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Stan Butler,

23/04/2009 16:11:27

# 16 Big Dave Fae The Rigs

'The people Darling needs to lift the country out of the recession will leave in droves.'


Tory boy.


82

Stan Butler,

23/04/2009 16:13:25
#70 theunionmustgo

'In fact lowering tax rates is mre likely to bring in more revenue as more people do not avoid tax.'


Tory boy.
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23/04/2009 16:13:44
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,

23/04/2009 16:16:23
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 16:18:13
#88 None of that matters.

I'm telling you that all the polling data one year before the election says that they nationalists have no chance of winning 30 seats at the next general election. I'm not making random speculative guesses about the future, I'm just telling you what the figures say right now.

If the polling data said something different I would tell you, it doesn't though.
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 16:19:15
#88 I would also caution Big Eck against using the "yes we can" stuff again, that was tragic.
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23/04/2009 16:25:51
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Cheradenine,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 16:34:05
#92 Whatever, I don't support the Labour party either, Unionists are not some sort of amorphous blob led by Gordon Brown, they are allowed their own opinions too.

Just like you're entitled to your opinion about the Nationalists chances at the next election, even though it will be proven wrong.
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Darien,

Panama 23/04/2009 17:21:58
#93: "Unionists are not some sort of amorphous blob led by Gordon Brown, they are allowed their own opinions too."

And your unionist (or rather British Nationalist) opinion of the state of the British state is what exactly? That it is working? Stronger together? That we fight wars better together? That we rule the world better together? That the city of London really is the financial center of the world? That Scotland couldnae survive without perfidious albion's umbilical chord (now a mega-debt chord round Scotland's neck).

Unionists are simply British Nationalists by another name. The British state treaty began with a bust bank and is ending the same way. For any Scot to now vote for any British Nationalist/Unionist party they would have to be stark raving bonkers. The only possible hope for Scotland now will be independence plus a rising oil price.
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hoblar,

23/04/2009 17:46:00
Of course the obligatory daily 'new' commentator telling us all like it is can simply be discounted for dreaming that saying there is 'no chance' that Labour MP's will be far far less come any uk election, (same in Holyrood) and that the SNP will not have more MP's and a bigger majority in Holyrood has to say that.

No choice.

Bear in mind that labour hegemony has declined irreversibly in Scotland, and in England!

In England the twin sister party of Labour will do their blue bras (rather than red-the ONLY difference) and that is all the choice England has.

In Scotland we have a far better choice that has proven abilities to represent the Scottish interest.

The only way that 'New' labour would speak up for Scotland is when their Westminster bosses are given the boot, and Labour certainly won't have the Scottish labour cannon fodder they have enjoyed for 50 years.

Of course New labour are going to be severely weakened as a political party, they deserve it!

Some numpty telling us about some 'poll' isn't going to change the fact that Labour will enter an election with:

A failed economy they engineered

A catalogue of corruption

A catalogue of sleaze and scandal

A war record the tories would be proud of against third world countries

A staggering deficit to be payed for by the tax payer

The biggest borrowing debt per head for us punters in the western hemisphere

More borrowing after the FAILED borrowing and debt of the banks they failed to regulate-even more debt

Real top end cuts to services to bail out New labour's incomepetence

PFI-another enormous public debt kept off the books but due to be revealed next month

If things were going averagely well, Labour would be due a wake up call, and to believe that the above truths are a recipe for going to the people is a flawed and arrogant way to conduct yourself.

Sounds like New Labour!





91

Raymond Thomas Brooke,

Leven England 23/04/2009 17:52:06
To say GB is the new Maggie isthe absolute insult to Maggie.This man is not fit to run a tea shop never mind a country
92

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 23/04/2009 17:53:22
re the question posed by Cher, "What is the point of voting SNP in a general election?"

If they were to win a high percentage of Scottish seats it would send a clear message to Westminster that Scotland feels it has needs that aren't being addressed. (e.g. how can an a nation so rich in natural resources have such low life expectancy figures and have the most deprived areas in Europe? ). It could also give them great bargaining opportunities if there ends up being a hung parliament (although I'd be surprised if the Tories didn't completely wipe the floor with labour). Look at the bargaining power one green MSP has in Holyrood...

A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence - it is a vote for the only party that puts Scotland at the forefront of it's agenda. The unionist parties will never be able to make this claim as London and the South east is the powerhouse of the UK - it's needs have to come first. No-one disagrees with that and as a nationalist, I have no problems with that at all. Voting SNP in a general election makes perfect sense if you want what's best for Scotland - that's what it's about. It is not a vote for independence - we will have to wait for a referendum to have a vote for that.
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hoblar,

23/04/2009 18:06:12
What use would having 'Scottish' Labour MP's in Westminster, as impotent out of power as Scotland is concerned as they have been when in power?

The red tories are gone, they have set the standard of debate and support of the Scottish interest by supporting enormous cuts cause by the economic mayhem of their New Labour bosses.

Jim Murphy is right into these cuts-so let's start with his own useless office misused by New Labour as a platform to attack the SNP rather than doing something for the Scottish interest.

And also how good did 'Scottish' labour look, going against all institutions in Scotland and the inhabitants of Scotland by SUPPORTING cuts in the Scottish budget?

Very sad for a torn apart party that noone's ma or da voted for!

England have no choice but to vote for a 'change' and that will only be the Tories, but Scotland can vote for far more representative politicians that aren't tied to Westminster, and that is a brilliant thing indeed!
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23/04/2009 18:27:45
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IainGlasgow,

23/04/2009 18:43:07
#99

I believe that the legal interpretation of the treaty of union is that Scottish MPs can, by a majority of their number, vote to withdraw from the contract (as could a majority of English MPs but I don't know what the situation is with Wales and Northern Ireland).

The UK is in fiscal meltdown and according to experts will be in chronic deficit to the tune of 90bn a year (if I just heard right on the ITV news) until 2032. Meanwhile the UK cabinet have their heads burrowing deeper into the sand.

Unless Gordon Brown proves that he really does have the superhuman ability to save the world in the next 12 months, the Tories are going to win a record landslide in the next general election. There will be no hung parliament. David Cameron will have a larger majority that TB had in 1997. The SNP may as well turn the general election into an independence referendum and campaign on that basis. If nothing else, 30 seats for the SNP would give the Scottish Government the leverage to force the opposition to pass a referendum bill. Labour would doubtless bottle it and give in, erasing the final thread of credibility they ever had. Then Scotland will, with the last stain of the labour movement washed out of our society, be able to move on to a better future.
96

Rab haw,

23/04/2009 20:13:29
R.I.P. The Labour Party
created by workers of vision and social conscience and destroyed by the greedy parasites who invaded it over the last 50 years.
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IainGlasgow,

23/04/2009 21:08:50
#98

Since devolution and until very recently, Secretary of State for Scotland was a task the defence secretary or some other cabinet minister did during their tea break.

It's a sign of how desperate Labour have become that they need a UK minister with a full time job of attempting to undermine the Scottish Government. If his constituents are prepared to let Jim Murphy keep his seat in the next election then its a clear sign we need to introduce intelligence tests to determine if people should be allowed to vote.
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Brianwci,

23/04/2009 23:35:05
#75 Stuart505. This is a remarkable article, frighteningly true.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25361297-21147,00.html
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Brianwci,

23/04/2009 23:39:09
Today's Herald:

"Pressure piles on Labour as the SNP power ahead in the polls"

(no sign of this poll in the Hootsman of course...until now. Enjoy.)

The latest polling makes grim reading for Labour on every count from voting intentions, to levels of party trust, to the individual standings of leaders.

There has been a 20-point swing on Westminster standings from Labour to the SNP. Far from facing mid-term blues, SNP ministers are stretching their lead at Holyrood. And the party's leader, Iain Gray, has plumbed disapproval levels not reached by his predecessor Wendy Alexander.

In short, if the latest YouGov poll on Scottish voting intentions speaks any truth at all, then the jig is truly up for Labour in the looming general election campaign, the European elections in June could be chastening, and prospects for Labour winning back control at Holyrood in two years will have stalled.
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The sampling period could not have been better for Messrs Brown and Darling - the eve of and the day of the Budget, a time when all the upbeat spinning of intentions had helped finally kill off the McBride/Draper sleaze affair and the Westminster expenses row, but before the horror of yesterday's front pages which almost universally traduced the Chancellor's best efforts.

This is a poll that is far more Glasgow East than Glenrothes, the best for the SNP since the autumn and a shift of seismic proportions within one month. In March YouGov put the SNP a single point ahead of Labour in the Holyrood constituency vote, two points behind in the regional vote, and 10 points behind in Westminster voting intentions.

A month later the same organisation using the same methods, albeit commissioned by the SNP itself, shows an astounding shift in fortunes. There has been a six-point shift in Holyrood constituency intentions (the SNP up two, Labour down four).

There has been an 11-point shift in the regional vote (the SNP up seven to 37%, Labour down four to 28%).
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24/04/2009 00:36:52
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Alan B,

24/04/2009 16:47:51
#Ugly George

Problem was Maggie was not very economically literate and was not a very good manager of the economy. There is difference between the policies known as thatcherism and what thatcher actually did in power. Difference between those who supported the general direction and thought the implementation was very poor.

I think those that comment that they would like a return of a Maggie generally do not understand the economy.

 

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