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Putin: A living riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

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Published Date: 06 June 2007
Several recent flare-ups between Russia and the West On eve of G8 conference, Russian relations at low point Issues include Iran's nuclear technology, oil, energy and poisoned spy
Key quote
"Russian relations with other developed western nations are at the lowest point since the end of the Cold War." - US think-tank

Story in full ALMOST six years to the day, in a 16th-century castle in the Slovenian hills, George Bush looked deep into Vladimir Putin's eyes and "got a sense of his soul".

After his first meeting with his Russian counterpart, the US president declared: "I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy."

Today, Mr Bush, like the other leaders gathering in Germany for the annual Group of Eight summit, will once again look into those steel-grey eyes and wonder: will this man lead the world into a new Cold War?

Before every major international summit, leaders manoeuvre carefully, dropping hints about their intentions and staking out positions, hoping to maximise their own advantage around the negotiating tables. As pre-summit gambits go, Mr Putin's, delivered on Sunday, was certainly striking, threatening to train Russia's nuclear missiles on European targets once again in protest at Mr Bush's plan for an anti-ballistic missile system partly based in Poland and the Czech Republic.

It was a dramatic statement, if largely symbolic - it takes seconds to set a missile's target, so Russia's arsenal poses the same threat to Europe whether "targeted" or not - and Mr Bush yesterday went out of his way to insist he is still keen to do business with the Russian leader.

But the nuclear warning was the latest in an ever longer list of flare-ups between Russia and the West: supplying Iran with nuclear technology; menacing former Soviet republics by cutting off their energy supplies; undermining Russian opposition groups; waging bloody war on Chechen separatists; pressuring western oil companies for a bigger slice of their profits; blocking United Nations' moves to make Kosovo an independent state; even harbouring a former spy accused of murder in a London hotel. A diverse list of grievances, but all of them instigated by Mr Putin, directly or otherwise.

And for all the inevitable attempts to portray a united front at the G8 meeting in Heiligendamm in Germany, those provocations and confrontations are taking their diplomatic toll behind the scenes. In the opinion of the Moscow office of the Heritage Foundation, a US think-tank: "Russian relations with other developed western nations are at the lowest point since the end of the Cold War."

So who is Vladimir Putin, the slim, trim former spy who rules modern Russia with an iron fist and a will to match? Fittingly, for an espionage professional, Mr Putin rose almost without trace. After a middling career in the old KGB, including a stint in East Germany, he returned to his home town of St Petersburg in 1990, and renewed his university friendship with Anatoly Sob-chak, then the city's mayor.

Mr Sobchak drew Mr Putin into the wider political circle around president Boris Yeltsin, and he slowly climbed through a number of bureaucratic postings in the chaotic post-Soviet power structure. By 1998, he was head of the FSB, one of the successors to the fractured KGB.

Crucially, the appointment was made by Mr Yeltsin, who was even then looking for the man who would replace him as president. Mr Yeltsin's criteria for a successor were loyalty, competence and willingness to protect the interests of "The Family," the cabal of relatives and allies who surrounded the old president and had grown enormously rich during the 1990s.

In August 1999, Mr Yeltsin surprised the world by appointing Mr Putin his prime minister and heir. On the last day of the year, he sprang a bigger surprise by resigning, making Mr Putin acting president.

Perhaps the greatest irony of Mr Putin's elevation is that his presidency began amid suspicions that he was nothing but a cipher, a puppet of powerful and wealthy men like Boris Berezovsky, one of the oligarchs who dominated Russia in the late 1990s.

But in a turn of events that says much about Mr Putin, Mr Berezovsky is now in exile: he has been granted political asylum in Britain, and says he fears for his life from his old friend's shadowy allies.

Likewise Tatyana Dyachenko, Mr Yeltsin's daughter and once a key Kremlin powerbroker: Mr Putin summarily dismissed her weeks after he became president, then cantered to his first election victory as the man who would end political corruption and restore Russia's pride.

He has not looked back since. Buoyed by a high oil price and higher domestic popularity, he has tightened his grip on Russian politics to a stranglehold. If he steps down next year, as the constitution demands, he will still be able to hand-pick and control his successor.

His foreign policy has grown ever more assertive. Although he backed US-led action in Afghanistan in 2001, he flatly opposed the Iraq war in 2003. Recently, he has made no secret of his desire to restore Moscow's influence in the "near abroad", the former Soviet republics that border Russia and that have been leaning ever more to the West.

As his nation became more stable and prosperous, Mr Putin found strong supporters among an early generation of western leaders. France's Jacques Chirac was friendly, and Germany's Gerhard Schroder once called the Russian "a peerless democrat". But both have moved on, replaced by leaders more suspicious of him: Nicolas Sarkozy of France was critical of Russia in his recent election campaign.

"The big problem with Russian leaders is that they still think of international politics as a zero-sum game - every gain for the West must be a loss for Moscow," says one think-tank analyst with close links to the German government of Angela Merkel, the host of this week's meeting.

And even Tony Blair, who once visited Mr Putin at his private dacha north of Moscow with his wife, has cooled, as the list of Mr Putin's provocations has grown. Lately, Mr Blair's approach has been economic - publicly warning Russia that inward investment in its economy is at risk from an increasingly authoritarian government in Moscow.

One British diplomat who has dealt with the Russian president shivers as he discusses the face-to-face meetings between leaders that will take place in Germany this week. "There is something unnerving about him when he fixes you with a stare," says the envoy. "Even when he's trying to be warm, his eyes are absolutely dead."

G8: What's on the agenda


• THERE will be a push for greater investment in Africa, with a drive to make countries live up to their pledges of more development aid.

While G8 countries have moved to scrap debt, they have been slower to deliver on aid. During Tony Blair's presidency, pledges were made to deliver debt relief, boost aid budgets by $50 billion by 2010 and ensure more money was provided for universal access to HIV treatment and education.

The United States and Germany have announced aid packages ahead of the summit, boosting spending on HIV and aid respectively. Measures to increase transparency and eradicate corruption in Africa will also be addressed.

• THERE is pressure for world leaders to agree emissions targets to combat climate change. A possible stand-off could ensue, after George Bush's calls for a separate climate summit were interpreted as an attempt to sideline the G8 talks. There is also pressure on China, India and Brazil to commit to curbs on their emissions.

The UK wants a commitment to stop temperatures from rising more than 2C above pre-industrial levels or to reduce emissions by around half their 1990 levels by 2050.

It prefers the scheme to be part of a United Nations framework under which countries have been seeking to find a successor to the 1997 Kyoto accord.

• WORLD trade talks are one of three priorities for the summit.

The big developing countries and the United States want more access to Europe's protected markets, while the EU wants America to reduce subsidies for its own farmers.

India and Brazil are also under pressure to reduce protective barriers for their goods.

This would make it easier for agreement on agricultural and industrial goods by all 150 members of the World Trade Organisation by the end of July.

There will also be an emphasis on the "human face of globalisation".

In his own words ...


“The US has overstepped its borders in all spheres – economic, political and humanitarian. We see a hyper-inflated use of force”

April 2007

“We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy as in Iraq”

Putin responds to US concerns about Russian civil rights, G8 summit, 2006

“We’d be interested in your experience, including how it applies to Lord Levy...”

At the same summit, after Tony Blair criticised corruption in Russia

“Moves by Iran have convinced us that it has no intention to build nuclear weapons”

Moscow, February 2005

“They provoke law enforcement forces to use force, and they respond”

May 2007, after EU leaders protested about Russian police treatment of pro-democracy protesters

“If you want to become an Islamic radical and are ready to have a circumcision, I invite you to Moscow. I will recommend this surgery in such a way so nothing would grow out of you again”

Putin to a journalist who questioned Russia’s conduct in Chechnya, 2002

“Should we catch them in a s***house, we'll kill them in a s***house”

On Chechen separatists

Page 1 of 1

 
1

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 00:17:13

One thing is for sure, evry time the energy/oil price looks like its going to start dipping.......suprise surprise..............:)

2

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 00:17:29

EVERY :)

3

The Strategist,

06/06/2007 00:24:20

Energy independence please.

4

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 01:00:06

Putin: A living riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma ...... Jim ...... you have to be kiddin?

There's no riddle, no mystery and certainly no enigma.

The man's KGB from tip to tail, inside and out; always has been, always will be.

This is a 'USSR' man, not a Russian like Yletsin or Gorby.

Its good the world is finding out who is the real enemy - maybe Europe and those Polyanas in the UK will wake up and come to understand that thet COLD WAR never ended.

Incidently, the point is that Putin could only feel threatened by the so-called 'missile defence shield' if he ALREADY HAS PLANS TO ATTACK EUROPE!

5

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 01:14:11

Comment@3 Dick, hi dude....thats easy :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb_rDkwGnU

6

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 01:15:10

And heres the company that makes it :) http://hytechapps.com/

7

brian mcc,

the arctic 06/06/2007 01:18:04

So Bush has made eye to eye contact with Putin. 2/3's of americans do not approve of the presidents vision of leadership. They have one thing in common, oil. As the US positions itself to profit against the losses in Iraq, missile defence against Iran...take air force one to Russia and get a circumcision while in Europe.

8

gerad,

scotland again 06/06/2007 01:31:54

#4 Conan
Yletsin was not a Russian, he was a drunk. I am with Putin on this the whole way.
I hope he follows Bush and Blair into the s***house.

9

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 01:34:00

..all that..inside a baldy man...

10

,

06/06/2007 01:50:02
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11

,

06/06/2007 02:10:02
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 684775, Article id was mapped to record!
12

Lynn,

Madison, Wisconsin, USA 06/06/2007 02:10:26

So Dubya finds Putin trust-worthy and straightforward, eh? Figures. Well, over here, we all know what to expect from Dubya. Nothing intelligent, nothing honest, certainly nothing straightforward or trust-worthy.

13

Guga II,

Rockall 06/06/2007 02:11:19

Bush is an living idiot, wrapped in a psycopath, inside a numpty.

14

Gerber Daisy,

06/06/2007 02:33:17

13. Guga II, Rockall

I guess Rockall does not have any type of education system.

15

Open Minded,

06/06/2007 02:47:02

#13 Guga 2

A bit like a Russian Doll then.

16

I'm going for a beer,

On my high horse 06/06/2007 03:27:31

"George Bush looked deep into Vladimir Putin's eyes" With a romantic meeting like that, couldn't they just make out on a bear skin rug and forget all about missiles and crap?

17

Paul,

06/06/2007 04:21:12

Putin maybe everything negative the articles acuses him of being. But I doubt it.

The most significant issue at the moment is WHY the West is seeking to so comprehensively discredit Putin. I don't think Putin is actually threatening the West, even with energy supplies (lik ethe uS would neevr dream of doing such a thing of course). It is the US and its allies that are the biggest aggressors in the world by a long, long way, and everybody knows it though the mainstream press are not allowed to say it.

Following Russia's disasterous move to capitalism there were many many problems, which the West chose to largely ignore in its celebration of the collapse of the eastern Bloc, and even now does not fully acknowledge. Putin rescured Russia from many of those problems, though not all of course.

Puitn has worsened the horrors in Chechnya but he has made Russia stable again, strong even. And that is what the West really hates.

In fact, I think we should applaud Putin for re-establishing stability but at the same time encourage him to extend democracy but this time in a controlled way not like under Yeltsin etc. who the West supported but in fact was totally useless.

Blaming Putin for reacting to the new arms race in Eastern Europe which is once again being driven by the US and its allies is typical of the Orwellian double speak of today.

When we have a media that is largely independent of the big business/political mainstream agenda then I will start to listen to it and think about believing what is printed. Because at the monment it is a case of "the bigger the issue, the bigger the lie". Witness Iraq, Guantanamo, rendition centres, the peace dividend, the war on drugs, Vietnam, development for Africa etc etc etc

Until then, it is the smaller more genuinely independent press which prints infomration closer to the truth and with less of the double speak in the article above.

18

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 05:07:11

#8 Gerad

Gerad said:

"Yletsin was not a Russian, he was a drunk."

That's like saying, "Pancho Villa wasn't a Mexican, he ate tortillas.

19

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 05:09:02

#17 Paul

Paul said:


'Following Russia's disasterous move to capitalism"


Right, Paul, good thinking, why did they ever ditch that communist thing that was working so well for them?

20

Ubi,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 05:28:18

Thank goodness for Putin, warts and all. Without him we would still be witnessing the effect of a monopoly super power. A little competition in nuclear expansion is no bad thing. And let's not forget that the Russians have never used one in anger.

21

Maksim,

06/06/2007 05:42:33

"Russian opposition groups" are bunches of losers supported Smolensky, Gusinsky, Berezovsky and others thieves with "-sky" at the ends of their surnames who cleaned out Russians.

If he cares so much of the destiny of Russia why don't Bush meet with real ordinary people in Russia talk to them and find out what they think and feel instead of meeting those ... in Prague?

22

Repton,

edinburgh 06/06/2007 05:44:38

Never trust a commie.I wouldn`t trust the likes of him. He`d shaft the west in a minute if he could.Did you see all the countries freeed by their supression wanting to stay in the USSR.No way,remember Hungary and Checkoslovakia.This guy`s no different from the old guard and would go back to the old ways as soon as he could.
As for the Russians not using a nuclear missile in anger it`s because they know what would happen to them.They sure would if they thought they`d get away with it.A nation which cannot be trusted.

23

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 06:04:39

All this negative propaganda started when Russia (its elites) objected to the US' 'star wars' in Europe.

I too object to that system. Sold to the US public (who will pay for it. Subsidising share holders' lives. Nice of you to be so charitable to the rich) as a 'deterrent' it will allow the US/'uk' elites to bomb targets a tad more dangerous than 3rd world countries like Afghanistan and Grenada or indeed countries crippled by sanctions. IE they will have little threat of retaliation. That alone should frighten folk.

24

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 06:07:14

22. Repton, edinburgh

"As for the Russians not using a nuclear missile in anger it`s because they know what would happen to them.They sure would if they thought they`d get away with it.A nation which cannot be trusted."

---My point exactly. Just change the word 'russia' for 'USA' and make a distinction between the elites and the masses. Say no to Star Wars.

25

Stephen101,

Ian Rankin, pay attention 06/06/2007 06:14:27

Rankin, you got competition! Excellent intro to Kirkup's novella.

Bush sees Putin's soul in his eyes. A British 'diplomat' sees eyes that are 'totally dead'. Ohhhhh I'm shivering too.

As for reality ( I know the Scotsman doesn't like it but here goes) who is the key player at the G8 that everyone needs to pay attention to? Our failed leader Blair? Or someone else? #17 Paul is totally right.

Bush and Blair hate to see Putin/Russia having real influence so get the spin docotors on the case, while the oil and gas keep coming our way. Can we find a WMD in 45 minutes 'threat' so we can get in there?

26

eric,

Lothian 06/06/2007 06:51:55

Rocket to Russia Ramones hey ho lets go

27

Phil C,

06/06/2007 07:27:16

It seems perfectly obvious that the arms manufacturers are back in control, through good old George W and his lying little poodles (Blair and Brown). This will help the US economy, to the detriment of the earth.

Putting up their extra 'defences' is threatening Russia. Putin needs to be less aggressive though, and Europe should be supporting him on this one.

The recent loud support for Trident and nuclear weapons is understandable, given the sabre rattling. This is exactly what the arms producers want. It is however completely paranoid and small-minded.

We need to continue the dialogue of the last three decades, get rid of WMD and make sure we make no more mistakes because of those lunatics; Bush, Blair, Brown and anyone who blindly supports the US. We need to minimise the chances of war, not maximise them like these nutters are doing!

28

Boedica,

06/06/2007 07:30:41

There is nothing enigmatic or demonic about Putin. He is a cool and determined politician with the mission to protect his country's interests. That is the job of a politician.
Ultimately it is the aim of the Western powers to get control over Russian and Asian natural ressources. Putrin opposes that policy. That makes him
an enemy in the eyes of Bushblairsarkozy. Were he one of those easily bought heads of state that we see so often in Africa, we would never hear of him.
As Paul and Stephen pointed out, this article is part of a media campaign.

29

Jeeemy,

06/06/2007 07:49:50

OIL! OIL! OIL!,
Yup that’s behind it, what do you think the oil transfers in the Forth are about.
This is to get Russian oil transferred to larger tankers to take it to America, you see the paranoid Yanks would not like to see Russian Tankers tying up at Galveston.
Oil like blood dose not have little national flags in it

30

Royster,

06/06/2007 08:12:31

Putin has all the hallmarks of the wiry, taciturn guy you would never dream of crossing. The type you come across occasionally in pubs. Blair and Bush are not remotely threatening by comparison. Putin, though, has the 'See You Next Tuesday' word written all over him. If he doesn't get his way, he'll probably give you a Mars Bar.

31

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 08:13:03

17 Paul

I agree. In spite of the crazy arms race and being bogged down in Afghanistan, trade restrictions etc the USSR economy went from 3rd world to 2nd. Then the fatal blow: a World Bank loan and its infamous conditions. The flight capital was huge and the criminal elites became the businessmen. The poor in Russia (outside of the cities) are now even poorer.

Aslo, it should be noted that Marx would have rejected the USSR. The revolution of the people never really got off the ground. The revolution of the wealthy continues to this day.

The State picks up the tab for the weapon industries' output. The masses are feeding the elites, as per usual. "The economy is doing well just now" = "The money is flowing smoothly from the poor to the rich, thank you very much".

32

,

06/06/2007 08:13:59
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Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 685126, Article id was mapped to record!
33

von-Scharnhorst,

Berlin-Preußen (ex Bathgate) 06/06/2007 08:30:40

"As pre-summit gambits go, Mr Putin's, delivered on Sunday, was certainly striking, threatening to train Russia's nuclear missiles on European targets once again in protest at Mr Bush's plan for an anti-ballistic missile system partly based in Poland and the Czech Republic."

In this instance, Putin is correct. If these defences are against the Middle East, and North Korea, as Boy George sais, then, like the guns at Singapore, they are facing the wrong way.

To defend against Iran, and other Middle Eastern threats, the radars should be in Italy, Greece and Turkey, not in the strategic "middle of nowhere" that is Poland and Czeckoslovakia (Or whatever it is called this week).
To defend the U.S against North Korea, then Japan and the Pacific Islands that "belong" to the U.S are the place.

34

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD,

Dar-Es-Salaam Tanzania 06/06/2007 08:38:46

Vladimir Putin. After his first meeting with his Russian counterpart, the US president declared: "I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy." Picture: EPA

Sir; Between the Great 8 summit that is seeing all sorts of confrontations from public, poor the politicians I laugh at the sentences that I paste here.
The reason is simple.
The Iran is out of the question and will stay out as long as the GREAT * cannot settle the indifference they have already caused within themselves. I mean if my roof is leaking badly I definitely do not want to come to the Economist magazine and repair your roof sir,
I see that the there is no danger at all to me.
Iran is in no danger from any Rice or Bush or Blaire. They have the cards mixed up bad.
The Mullahs are having the laugh.
For this, you may have to read the following:
Mr. Bush stressed: "Russia is not the enemy." "My message will be Vladimir - I call him Vladimir - that you shouldn't fear a missile defence system," said Mr. Bush. "As a matter of fact, why don't you co-operate with us on a missile defence system? Why don't you participate with the United States?"
I thank you

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania

35

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 08:46:37

"ALMOST six years to the day, in a 16th-century castle in the Slovenian hills, George Bush looked deep into Vladimir Putin's eyes and "got a sense of his soul""

Meanwhile, Putin looked back into Bush's eyes and just came away with a sense of total empty nothingness....there really is no-one at home in his head.

When does the US have its next holyrood style election? I feel a whole lot safer now that Putin is 'sense-checking' everything Blaire (for you Firozali) and Bush do.

36

Keke,

Aberdeenshire 06/06/2007 08:49:07

It takes at most a couple of minutes to retarget a nuke, the fact he's threatening to aim them at us is irrelevent, he could do it anytime. It's also worth noting that the first to use nuclear weapons in a scrap would be us, not Russia, as we do not have the conventional forces to match them and would have to bring out the big guns to save ourselves. Should a pre-emptive strike come from Russia without warning then Putin knows he'll be the president of the worlds biggest car park within 20 minutes. It's not a good scenario, but the only way Russia can survive in the world is to sell her oil and gas, and to do that she needs friends. That Putin is a problem is without question, but I suspect he's got a lot of yes men around him from the old guard and little support in the wider Russian population. The real threat remains Iran, Muslim extremists and assorted other nutters, Russia and the Europe need each other to tackle these.
One thing's for sure, we need a trustworthy, balanced government with common sense and diplomacy to tackle these situations ... we haven't got one.

37

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 08:51:57

4

Aye right enough lets start another arms race just to keep feardies like you happy.
The US plans on sticking missile bases on the Russian borders and their wondering what awe the fuss is about. Dont forget if you have a missile base set up you can deploy whatever kind of missiles you like there once the infrastructure and security is in place its like building an airport and telling everybody your just going to use it for commercial flights but it doesnie stop ye using it for any other type of aircraft.
Does this mean its ok now for Russia to deploy missiles in Cuba?

38

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 08:52:27

#13 Guga LOL! :-))

39

,

06/06/2007 08:53:56
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Reason:
40

Phil C,

06/06/2007 08:59:58

#37 Boyce. That would be a fair exchange. If only the US could see that and stop their nonsense in Easteren Europe.

41

BIG EYE,

Paisley 06/06/2007 09:02:08

Putin has much in common with the Labour Party. Putin is in denial over the loss of the Russian Empire while Labour cannot understand that they are now in opposition in Scotland.

Putin however is really dangerous and his foreign policy and interference in the now independent former Soviet states could be potenially very dangerous. I am not in favour of nuclear power stations but unless we can be sure that alternative energy sources can be in place before the existing stations life is over then we may have to change our minds.

I would not like to be held ransom by the Russians under any circumstances.

42

Radical Mac,

Kirkcaldy 06/06/2007 09:02:19

As has been said Putin is KGB through and through so he is of the cold war world not today. So any US world domination tactic or simply finding outlets for their arms industry is likely to aggravate the situation and allow Putin to go back in time. Time we all started understanding each other settling arguments with a fight should end in the school playground. Let the Russians try and find true democracy and freedom for the first time after rule by Czars, Communist Czars etc. They dont have to become americans who think their system works globally as they have no conception of other cultures.

43

Phil C,

06/06/2007 09:02:26

Bush, Bliar and Brown-nose should be tied to missiles and fired into space.

44

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 09:04:40

#42 I hear Blair has appointed a Russia Czar to look into the situation.

45

Dell,

06/06/2007 09:20:58

"missiles on Russia's border."

If my atlas in correct Prague is closer to Edinburgh than to Moscow. The Scotsman building could be under threat.

46

Erse,

Middle East 06/06/2007 09:35:44

#44 What a revolutionary idea!

47

Alberto.,

06/06/2007 09:38:00

Perhaps George Bush should take another look into Putins eyes!

From our past experience of 'Foot in Mouth' George, perhaps he should have a re-check - it might easily have been a Haddock' Cod or Plaice, or who knows what!

Perhaps a second opinion might be worthwhile, as I doubt that Bush would know in any case - especiaaly if they are naked, without batter, and no descriptive label!

48

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 09:40:14

45

Is that the Prague in Poland yer referring to?

49

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 09:42:25

45

Mind you thats like the Russians saying if we put our missiles in Cuba we are more of a threat to Trinidad than the USA.

50

GD,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 09:42:50

I read about a third of this article and couldn't go any further, It's so predictable it's an insult to our intelligence.
So now we've to believe it's the Russians who have been running about causing havok throughout the world and the West are trying to calm them down and make them come to their senses?
Bush: A living joke, wrapped in a comedy, inside a tragedy.

51

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 09:50:36

#50 GD: Absolutely correct! Whilst America instigated the cold war due to her fear of Russian supremacy in science, technology and other sectors, she also invaded many nations under the guise of peace whilst Russia took care of Russia.

During the cold war the Russians built nuclear safe houses for their people, the American government did not.

I see where you are coming from. The aggressor and the creator of war is the one pointing the finger at the lesser evil...

But thats politics isnt it?

52

James Bond,

Perth 06/06/2007 10:08:39

Suggest you should read a 4 th. June transcript of Putin's briefing to G8 Newspaper Journalists.
This runs to 30 pages and makes good reading - covering most topics.
Reason and dialogue are the central themes. Essentially unlike those from the USA as per Bush administration.
File can be forwarded on request

53

Chanter Reed,

06/06/2007 10:12:55

38. Polmonto

You may be the dumbest poster I've ever seen before.

54

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 10:14:27

#52 Bush already has his hands on nuclear weapons though? Frightening.

Oi! Bush!! Yoohooo, we don't have a democratically elected head of state...are you going to bomb us into democracy too?!

I'm a fan of your work,

Love,

polmonto.

55

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 10:16:18

Chanter Reed,

You are the third dumbest poster I've ever seen.

Love you too,

polmonto.

56

None_Sense,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 10:17:42

50

"Bush: A living joke, wrapped in a comedy, inside a tragedy." !!!

57

GD,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 10:19:09

Putin also said Washington's proposal to Russia to cooperate in the missile defense sphere was limited to Russia providing its missiles for target practice, which was an unreasonable offer.

"Our American partners want us to provide them with our missiles as targets, so that they can conduct exercises using our missiles. This is just brilliant. What a great idea they've thought up."

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070605/66682646.html

58

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 10:22:56

As Bush Sr said to Bush Jr, "Son, you're making the same mistake in Iraq that I did with your mother, you didn't pull out in time"

59

Lianachan,

Highlands 06/06/2007 10:41:49

No wonder Russia is a bit annoyed about the US setting up missiles in eastern Europe. How would the US feel if the Russians were to set up missiles on their doorstep, in, say, Cuba? Oh wait, that's right.......

60

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 10:44:43

Will the defense system protect us against the pineapples??? Deadliest weapon known to mankind. Don't go near Glasgow, Putin: they know how to use fruit to maximum effect.

61

doris d,

06/06/2007 10:44:47

George Bush looked deep into Vladimir Putin's eyes and "got a sense of his soul". "I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy."

Mmm-maybe he is George-but as one little twisted Neocon, how accurate is your perspective on life???

Perversely we are now in a situation with world leaders where the public at large have no trust or respect for them. That could actually have a healthy bearing on the state of nations-whereby people will become less subservient and more questioning of their politicians.

62

Schools Inspector,

06/06/2007 10:49:20

#14 Gerber Daisy

You are perfectly correct. There is no education system on Rockall.

But as everyone knows, Guga II spent his formative years on the mainland and only moved to Rockall in his early 20's.

Rockall Sporting Goods on the other hand is a native.

63

mnky,

06/06/2007 10:53:41

I sometimes think that Putin is the Ultimate Bond Villan. I've got a sneaky bit of respect for him in a weird way as he seems to be the only world leader that really knows how to play the big Power Games.

Is he evil for making his country's interests No.1?

64

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 06/06/2007 11:00:54

I have to say that a lot of the recent willie-waving by the governments of the EU, US, & RF is pandering to public opinion, as per some comments above.
In my humble opinion, it is highly unlikely that the fore-mentioned missile interceptors will be sited in Poland or the Czech Rep. This is a most unpopular idea amoung the populations of these countries, particularly as it smacks of days past. Being democracies, their govering parties wish to get re-elected.

65

Banana Heid,

Ayrshire 06/06/2007 11:04:29

It asn't America Or Russia who ended the cold war it was the russian people fed up with all the sabre rattling pish who nailed the coffin shut on all that crap. GW and Vlad had better remember that when the go about discussing the future of europe and it's people. they are both a pair of hasbeens who's cards are marked.

66

Parker,

06/06/2007 11:19:26

The posters "Barbara Bush" & "Schools Inspector" are both Trolls, as you can see they are just here harassing other posters with their conveniently made up names

67

www.scottwebb.co.uk..,

06/06/2007 11:33:41

Comment@65 Morning Reading Public, its great that people are waking up to the reality that we can run the world on water :)

68

Robert Law,

Dundee 06/06/2007 11:33:55

The Russian stance on ballistic missile defence is sheer hypocrisy ! as Putin allready has a system in place , so if it is good anuff for Russia are we second class citizens in europe? , rouge states like Iran and N.Korea are developing of have ICBM's which could target Europe.

a proposed balistic missile system where the war head is plastic balls , not a nuclear bomb which would be pointles in such a system ,where you are trying to destroy incouming missiles.

UK particapation in a starwar's non nuclear missile sheild is far superiour to the present trident nuclear weapons system which offers no defense

this is a way for the UK to get rid of nuclear weapons and particapate with the rest of europe and the united states in a missile defense system.

ICBM sheild = defensive non nuclear system kills missiles

Trident = offencife nuclear system dumped in scotland makes us a target -kills people

since the 1960s russia and the soviet union have had a balistic missile shield protecting moscow.

69

Pens,

06/06/2007 11:34:42

#70 Parker

What are you rabbiting on about. There are no posts from anyone called Barbara Bush on this thread. You are delusional, did you forget to take your meds this morning,

70

Call Me Al,

Rockaway Beach 06/06/2007 11:38:43

#25. Cheers Eric. There is nothing wrong with bursting the bubble every now and again.

Gabba Gabba Hey!

71

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:50:39

69

His real reason is GWBs insensitivity poor statesmenship and total stupidity.
Explain to me how this differs from Khrushchev deploying missiles in Cuba?

72

Erse,

Middle East 06/06/2007 11:51:03

#72, Rouge states! I like it! Is that where they got the Red Flag?

73

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 11:51:41

68

But you trust the Americans right?

74

Erse,

Middle East 06/06/2007 11:52:57

Kruschev sent missiles to Cuba to force Kennedy to remove the US missiles from Turkey. Putin should do the same now.

Talk about history repeating itself!

75

fred bloggs,

in my shelter 06/06/2007 11:56:58

32. I suspect the missiles would be too close placed in Italy or Turkey. They need to be further away to give the radars time to track the Russian ICBMs and time for the intercepting missiles to get to them - probably when the ICBMs are near the top of their trajectory.

76

Canning,

06/06/2007 12:07:51

hands up who is all for keeping Faslane now? It would appear that having nuclear weapons is cumming in pretty handy in the old international negotiations. It would be interesting to see where China is standing in this procession, we are forgetting that they too are shaping up to become a superpower in the not too distant future.

77

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 12:11:14

Putin: A living riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

Blair: A living enigma, wrapped in an American flag, inside a box of stars and stripes.

Bush: A living mystery, wrapped around his dads fingers, inside an empty head.

78

Venom217,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:16:18

I know - Russia has oil & gas.

We need these items, but they wont give it to us.

Time for a regime change - Putin in collusion with Osama?

79

fred bloggs,

in my shelter 06/06/2007 12:17:13

The US would not be targeting its defensive missiles against Russia - there aren't enough of them to stop all the Russian ICBMs and they're not 100% effective anyway. What they are afraid of is a single missile from a rogue state that there would be a good chance of intercepting.

80

Venom217,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:18:12

81

China are shaping up to be a superpower?

Sorry, they already are.

Handy keeping Faslane? - what's left of it.

81

Eddie1,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:20:44

So Bush is an idiot, tell us something new. Quicker they get him on trial for war crimes the better. Maybe the American public can wake up to the fact that trying to rule the world will end the world. If only Bush & Blair would have to stand and explain why they authorised the killing of so many inoccent people in a war for oil. But no, off they go to some high paid jobs and leave us jo public to live with what they have created. Good job boys NOT !

82

Erse,

Middle East 06/06/2007 12:22:07

#84 - Not a rouge state then?

83

Venom217,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:22:48

84

Britain is developing its own missile interception technology involving large magnifying glasses placed at strategic locations in the Home Counties.

Sunlight is focused through the lense to help burn the missiles from the sky.

Only a few problems

- The cunning russians may attack at night or on a cloudy day.

- We may hit a few passenger aircraft in the crossfire.

- Because all the magnifying glasses are in the Home counties, anywhere North of Watford will need to fend for itself.

Don't worry though, civilsation will be retained in London in time for the Olympics.

Another piece of no news.

84

W Smith,

Middle East 06/06/2007 12:23:20

Having nuclear missiles at Faslane makes Scotland a target?

1) Clydebank was a target in WW2 because of the shipbuilding. Coventry was targeted because of its manufactuting base.

2) Russia has since admitted that it had nuclear missiles pointed at EVERY major city in the UK when the Commies were in power.

BTW
The Ukraine versus Russia at football is a real grudge match - and its not George Bush's fault.

Maybe something to do with the Stalin imposed famine that killed more than 5 million Ukrainians 1932 - 1933.

One of Stalin's officers said that the famine was a great success as it showed the peasants "who is the master here. It cost milliions of lives, but the collective farm system is here to stay.."

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

George Galloway said the collapse of the Soviet Union was the "biggest catastrophe" of his life.

Not for the Ukrainians it wasn't!

85

Eddie1,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:23:45

#82 Media 1, Good shout

86

Venom217,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 12:26:01

If all rules are off in a nuclear war?

Why doesn't russia pack commercial aircraft with Nukes and fly them remotely to target cities and detonate them?

After all the IFF transponders on the commercial aircraft, along with logged flight plans would get them into our airspace?

87

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 12:31:13

I heard from a source that Putin is planning on having one ICBM permanently trained on the Gogar tram depot, and will send it homewards when the Scotsman stops writing tram-related stories. We may complain about the number of trams-themed articles, but the kindly Scotsman journos are doing it for the good of the nation!

88

Eddie1,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:31:29

Wasan't there a bit of a question mark over the voting when Bush first became President? a question mark is an understatement more like cheating. Then was it not strange how his second stint came from being up against a weed called Kerry. Is that the best the yanks have to offer against brianless Bush, oh how I fear for the future!

89

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 12:35:36

80

The only Cu*ts the cold war didnt finish for were the Neonumpties in the States everybody else celebrated it.

90

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 12:46:43

Bush is more of a rollmop wrapped around an empty irn bru tin, wrapped around a neon sign that reads, 'glaikit'.

every time W comes on the TV a caption pops up in my mind that sits beneath his fizz and reads, 'glaikit'.

91

Lock,

06/06/2007 12:51:33

If anything ever goes wrong all we have to do is send Dan Ackroyd and Chevy Chase into Russia and they will manage to redirect any missiles in a slapstick comedy fashion.

92

Media 1,

cape town and stockbridge 06/06/2007 13:05:08

#91 Reading Republic: The only reason old man Bush has distanced himself now is because Saddam is dead...Its mission accomplished for him.

I cannot believe you trusted Bush. The man is an absolutely shallow human being. And he brings god into everything he does and says. That alone is enough to ignore the man.

93

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 13:16:13

Why would anyone envy the US? Complete lack of moral compass springs to mind.

94

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 13:20:30

99

I have no problems with the US only the Neo apocalyptic Yee ha's that like to pretend they represent the US. I have the same attitude towards my own present Government and I honestly wouldnt trust Putin either. I bet he was behind the assassination of Litvinenko in the UK. But on this occasion he has got it right and that poor excuse for a world leader Bush wants tae get his heid looked at and keep his missiles away from where they can do us all harm. What kind of a tosser could think he would get away wie putting missiles so close to a regime like Russia?
Where do you right wing muppets get off thinking you actually represent the US with your views?

95

wattie>x 1,

06/06/2007 13:25:18

The remarks made on Putin MUST be correct, coming from two Christian stalwarts such as Bush and Blair. It must be wonderful belonging to the Christian faith; dogma; or whatever it's label!
Are all its believers such paragons of virtue?

96

von-Scharnhorst,

Berlin-Preußen (ex Bathgate) 06/06/2007 13:28:09

"79. fred bloggs, in my shelter
32. I suspect the missiles would be too close placed in Italy or Turkey. They need to be further away to give the radars time to track the Russian ICBMs and time for the intercepting missiles to get to them - probably when the ICBMs are near the top of their trajectory."

Quite. But the point of my post was that according to the U.S, these defences are to defend against the Middle East and North Korea. NOT the Russians.

Therfore, they are in the wrong place. The only POSSIBLE use they could be is to stop an attack from the Middle East on Iceland or Sweden. (Highly dubious countries THEY are :-)) )

They would also have to have a bloody long range to give a North Korean missile a good doin'.

However, considering the Russian ICBMs are East of the Urals, then Poland/Czekoslovakia, are perfectly placed, for a "first screen defence".

97

Neil,

9% Growth 06/06/2007 13:30:31

Putin is undoubtedly a lot smarter than Bush. That doesn't stop him being much less likely to start aggressive wars.

Putin clearly understands the importance of international law & peace. Unfortunately for him he has a bunch of genocidal war criminals on his borders. if we remember that the first duty of any national leader is the safety of his own country we will find it easy to understand putin's actions. Regretably Bush & Blair are more enigmatic.

98

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 13:49:27

104

Unfortunately for him he has a bunch of genocidal war criminals on his borders.
And it looks like more are on their way.

99

Patricia M,

Guisborough 06/06/2007 13:56:04

I have watched Putin since he first came to power.Putin was a frightening man then and worried other wolrld leaders with his background. But, if you watch his eyes carefully, he watches and listens more than he talks. The man is no fool and knows exactly what is going on in world with other leaders. In this day and age, who wouldn`t.

100

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 14:05:20

89

I was happy with the collapse of the Soviet Union but if only it was tempered with the collapse of the Neo Right in the West we would be living in a much better world right now.

101

Ally Mac,

Wimborne 06/06/2007 14:12:33

If I were Putin I would not be happy about the Yanks shooting down nuclear missles before the reached the West, especially since it means they will fall on Russia!

102

Pete,

Paisley 06/06/2007 14:17:26

Why does the UK allow the likes of Boris Berezovsky, Gordievsky and Alexander Litvinenko to stay in the UK when they are/were clearly conspiring against Russia and president Putin?
Berezovsky has got to be one of the most corrupt men within the UK the borders.
The UK government maybe believes that Berezovksy can with help, one day, overturn the Russian government and will be manipulated by the west for Russian oil and gas. They are probably right, that for an appropriate amount of cash he will be, but, I'm also betting that Putin is a better chess player, than Bush and Blair together.

103

Sedov,

Scotland 06/06/2007 14:26:26

Putin is now the new bogey man of the West and will be used, along with terrorism as an excuse for the continued existence and expansion of Trident and other MWD's. Putin wants to increase his share of the capitalist market as gas is not enough to sustain a Russia disentergrating day by day so he is gambling with the increasing need for gas by the West. Most of it is posturing, just like Bush. That's the way of the system we live under and its not going to get any better.

104

Pete,

Paisley 06/06/2007 14:44:20

George Bush's sabre rattling provocations are designed to creat problems for the Democratic president who will take his place when his time as president is over.

105

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 14:58:19

110

I think that sums it up nicely enough.

106

Temporary Afghanistan Denizen,

06/06/2007 15:39:30

111. Pete, Paisley

LOL

107

Boab,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 15:39:46

Liked the Lord Levy comment Putin made to Blair. Makes a nice change from all the 'third way' blandness we've had over the last ten years! Not sure if Putin's really scary - he's definitely a Thatcherite control freak; I suppose history will judge whether he was any good for Russia.

108

Temporary Afghanistan Denizen,

06/06/2007 15:40:39

96. Polmonto

When you can't win the debate you call people names.

109

,

06/06/2007 15:42:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 687060, Article id was mapped to record!
110

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 15:53:31

116

I was wondering how long it would take a right wing toerag to pull Islam into the debate.
Welcome to the forum on Russia have you just finished cleaning yer automatic weapons?

111

Grumpy scotsman,

Nicaragua 06/06/2007 16:00:19

"It was a dramatic statement, if largely symbolic ... and Mr Bush yesterday went out of his way to insist he is still keen to do business with the Russian leader.

But the nuclear warning was the latest in an ever longer list of flare-ups between Russia and the West: supplying Iran with nuclear technology; menacing former Soviet republics by cutting off their energy supplies; undermining Russian opposition groups; waging bloody war on Chechen separatists; pressuring western oil companies for a bigger slice of their profits; blocking United Nations' moves to make Kosovo an independent state; even harbouring a former spy accused of murder in a London hotel. A diverse list of grievances, but all of them instigated by Mr Putin, directly or otherwise."

It's distressing to see no mention of the United States part in the 'flare ups'. For Bush to say he still wants to do business with Putin after Iraq, the missile 'shield', Israel, and above all his insulting refusal to do anything tangible to curb his country's insane planetary destruction (5% world population, 25% carbon-based pollution), beggars belief.

Sadly - tragically - here in this little country bludgeoned into submission by Bush's father for daring to feed its own children first, we expect such hypocrisies of those other 'Americans'.

We don't expect it of a newspaper that claims to offer objective reporting.

112

Sedov,

Scotland 06/06/2007 16:05:13

#116 phucus - Its a pity you know nothing about the history of your own country and the struggle of ordinery men and women in the US ( Oklahoma, the wobblies atc, against their employers to make it easier for you to spout out your red neck rubbish. I suggest you visit your local library ( probably donated by Carnegie) and educate your tiny mind. I have many friends in the USA who are as tired of people like you as I.

113

Temporary Afghanistan Denizen,

06/06/2007 16:05:38

118. Grumpy scotsman

Jefe,

Your last line is very funny. The Scotsman is very Liberal in it's reporting. That's why you find so many America & Bush haters that hang out here and complain.

114

phocus,

Prescott, AZ, USA 06/06/2007 16:11:54

#116 Boyce, it's all tied together...but then that appears to be beyond your comprehension capabilities. The US, UK, and other freedom defending countries are being played like a drum by Putin, Iran, N. Korea, etc., with support from non thinking folks like yourself.

And I fully understand your concern about my weapon...after all, you and your ilk are depending on it for your defense. You are too easy.

115

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 16:14:15

"Today, the United States is the only nuclear power that continues to deploy nuclear weapons outside its own territory. The approximately 480 nuclear bombs in Europe are intended for use in accordance with NATO nuclear strike plans, the report asserts, against targets in Russia or countries in the Middle East such as Iran and Syria."

http://www.nukestrat.com/us/afn/nato.htm

One rule for US and quite another for the ROTW.

116

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 16:21:15

#30 Finnking

Finns, you said:

"The money is flowing smoothly from the poor to the rich, thank you very much".

Really? Isn't that like saying that the water is flowing smoothly from the desert to the lake?

117

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:25:42

121

Hud oan til a catch ma breath. I havnt laughed so hard since reading Sandys last post.
That freedom defending countries line is a cracker.
Where dae ye dig these jokes up fie are they on the internet? whats the address?
And fur Christ sake dinae tel ma wife am easy or it will no be your weapon Ah'll huv tae worry aboot.

118

phocus,

Prescott, AZ, USA 06/06/2007 16:27:21

Sedov...you and your friends in this country are more dangerous than any terrorist. But, rest easy, we will defend your right to be as stupid as you can be...just as we have in the past. Your post is telling. I bet you have a real nice tin cup you hold out for the STATE to fill when you need things...right? Take responsibility for your self man. Stop singing the praises of unions and socialism. Free enterprise and capitalism...that's what you and your friends in this country hate. Makes slackers and losers obvious.

119

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:32:31

121 Phocus

Actually seeing as naebody else wants to answer my question maybe you can.

Is it alright now for the Russians to deploy their missiles in Cuba?

120

Spuds,

Yer back yard 06/06/2007 16:32:35

121

"Freedom Fighting Countries"? Priceless. Lemme guess - yer one of them boyos that stands around chanting "U-S-A, U-S-A", thinks that the US is fighting for "my" freedom and that anyone that disagrees with the "War On Terror" (Copyright Dubya) is a threat that must be shot down.

I'm all for free speech, but there's a difference between expressing an opinion and talkin guff. "Useful Idiot" indeed.

121

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 16:39:09

#122 Finnking

This is a serious question. Doesn't the British navy have subs with nukes on board?

Also, I notice that your opinion of the States is one of a few wealthy autocrats wheeling around in limos and a vast population of moron drones. You should come and see for yourself. If you'd like, I would be happy to host you for a stay in Southern California. As strident as your opinions are about the US they are kinda mild compared to the views about America that are held by my fellow Americans at the school that I'm affiliated with, the University of California, San Diego. Angela Davis used to be a professor there. So I don't personally take offense at anything you say, it's dinner table talk in the States. You're welcome anytime.

122

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 16:40:46

#126

Are saying that the Cubans are all set to install non-nuke defensive missiles?

123

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 16:42:57

#127 Spuds

Spuds says:

"I'm all for free speech, but there's a difference between expressing an opinion and talkin guff."

That's your opinion.

124

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:44:15

129

Does it matter? will the US allow any type of Russian missile to be deployed in Cuba?

125

Pete,

Paisley 06/06/2007 16:47:37

phocus # 121

Nice to see they are naming towns in Arizona after George Bush's grandfather, the war profiteer, Prescott Bush.
What does freedom mean to you in Prescott, Arizona?
Freedom for Americans and screw the rest; the freedom for a US president to order the US war machine into a sovereign country on a lie or the weakest of pretexts. Freedom for Americans to bear arms and gun down their own president. Freedom for American school/college kids to gun down their classmates. The freedom for 35,000 Americans a year to die in shooting incidents. The freedom for American soldiers to die in foreign lands for Halliburton Oil, sent there on the whim of a congenital idiot, president because of a fixed electoral system.
I can see how you might think our ways are strange when we are denied all those cherished American freedoms.

126

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:49:43

57Nomad

Is it alright fur Russia to deploy missiles in Cuba now or no?

127

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 16:52:03

116. phocus, Prescott,

"Did you know that Mohammed will be the top name for boys in the UK by years end. "

----Yeah? Well, if that were the case, so what? That's how civilisations have moved from when we started. "George" is hardly an indigenous name to the celtic isle either.

However, you should always take what the Murdoch's Times say with a large pinch of salt. Here's a right wing paper, that still has some credibility, on the subject: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006...

"Ah, you'll be loving your freedom to spread your sad and childish hate for the West, the US, President Bush, whatever, once the Muslim boys are running things. "

---You mean that the muslims will start running things in the uk within the next 30 years? In 30 years they will tear down over 300 years of legal systems building? The muslim population will grow from 1.5Million to a majority of approx. 30 million in 30 or so years, yes?

---Out of 1.5m muslims in the 'uk', muhammed is the most common name for boys. The 'christian' names are more varied. I.E. there are hundreds of 'christians' names. You analysed the stats to suit you predudice, just as the Times wanted you to.

"You are stunningly foolish."

----Mmmmm...................

128

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:54:01

Is there anymair o you neonumpties prepared to answer ma question.

Is it alright for Russia to deploy missiles in Cuba?

129

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 16:56:47

134

We hud awe better start shagging a lot mair then.
Dae ye think Ah could use that as a good chat up line? If ye dinae sleep wie me soon we will be knee deep in Muslims before the end of the year.

130

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 17:07:21

128. 57Nomad,

Thankyou for the offer but unfotunatly you have too often started a decent argument only to lie, twist and distort the 'debate' when you feel you cannot retract false statements. Then, most annoyingly, you say something like, "Hey man, i'm only kidding! I got a stressfull job and just like taking the piss." It makes rational debate and a dialectical exchange of views impossible. Sorry, but you screwed it up some months back.

Simply put, I can't be bothered.

I tend towards using the term "US/'uk' Elites" as I see no difference between them. If you honestly don't believe that the US and the 'uk' are run by an elite, then that's your view and I know from experience that nothing I state will alter that view and nothing you state will alter mine.

BTW: Every nation state, in my view, has an elite. That's why we have nations states. However, some of them content themselves with expoiting the local herd while others tend towards more expansionist slavery and theft. I detest both types but the latter most.

Let me see you having a rational discussion with another poster and I will be tempted to try and explain my views again to you and to learn from yours.

In the meantime: Anytime you're passing through Finland, feel free to keep going!

131

John Holmes,

06/06/2007 17:19:09

137. Finnking II

Are you ready to apologize for your disgusting Anal Comments from 2 weeks ago?

132

Neil,

9% Growth 06/06/2007 17:21:36

Did you know that Jesus & Jose will be the top USA names by 15th November 2008? Me neither but if you are going to make up such rubbish you might as well be specific.

133

John Holmes,

06/06/2007 17:27:12

137. Finnking II

No comment will mean no apology.

134

phocus,

Prescott, AZ, USA 06/06/2007 17:46:05

#139

Try to keep up Neil. Read a paper, listen to the news, then hit the posts. You're embarrassing yourself...smile.

#132

Pete, Pete, Pete...you're being funny...right? You are such a jokester...

I retract the "Useful Idiots" comment from earlier. Lets try Village Idiots...

135

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 17:51:48

141 focus.

There ye are I thought you had gone out to reset yer bear traps around your house.
Huv ye thought aboot an answer tae ma question yet regarding Russian missiles in Cuba?

136

Siebie,

South Africa 06/06/2007 18:02:24

Apart from the US who has nuclear Carte Blanche in the world today, and supplying Israel with it, Russia is the only country with an equally impressive arsenal.

I wish Bush will provoke Putin enough...enough to push the red button that is ;-) It would be fun to see that revolting Statue of Liberty being blown to smithereens.

137

Pens,

06/06/2007 18:15:46

#138 & 140 John Holmes

Are you going to try for an on topic comment any time this week.
No on topic post will mean you are a troll

138

phocus,

Prescott, AZ, USA 06/06/2007 18:27:43

142 Boyce...

Sorry Boyce, I was brushing my tooth. Now, aboot missiles. Are you thinking that offense missles are the same as defense missiles?

Whatever yer thinkin, it's good to see yer thinkin. And, Putin would be proud to have you lookin out for him and the poor oppressed motherland.

And to Seibie #143 What a loving comment. You must be a wonderful and happy person. It must be great just being you.

139

okanaganguy,

kelowna, b.c. canada 06/06/2007 18:30:35

I believe that Putin has a legitimate concern. I wouldn't want a missile defence system in my back yard. If G.W. is successful in getting his way , everyone in Europe including the British Isles is in grave danger. Where do you think all those missiles are going to land when they are shot down? Certainly not on the U.S.A. The only country in the past 6 years he hasn't p----d off is China. But he still has 2 years to go so i wouldn't be surprised if he puts his foot in his mouth again. Just the other night, a couple of the Democratic presidential candidates suggested boycotting the Bejing Olympics to force China to intervene in Darfur. Gimme a break.

140

Listen Ear,

06/06/2007 18:36:30

It's all so they can con us into paying for weapon systems we don't need and driving up the price of oil and gas.

141

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 18:40:15

145

Like the tooth joke shows a glimmer of humanity.
Do you think the type of missile matters to the US would they allow any type of Russan missile to sit in Cuba?

142

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 18:44:30

#137 Finns

Okay, junior, have it your way. It's impossible to be civil with you.

I remained puzzled by your description of elites. By your definition those who win gold medals in the Olympics stole them from those who are weaker and slower. Is that why you're grumpy all the time, Finns, did nature short change you? Are you slow, weak, unable to compete?

143

H.O.G. Since 1998,

06/06/2007 18:53:29

4. Conan, Here

Well said!

144

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 19:02:53

Neocon USA


Aye thats exactly what I thought so if the US objects to the Russians deploying missiles close to your borders you cannae be surprised that the Russians are going to object to the US deploying them close to their borders Youre effin hypocracy is breathtaking only topped by your incredible ignorance and stupidity.

145

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 19:12:58

#116 I've complained about your disgusting, narrow minded racism.

146

bill1,

06/06/2007 19:16:06

4. Conan

I find myself in agreement with you for a change.

Putin is USSR/KGB right through, like a stick of rock.

Communism was suspended to get money and technology from the west, to penetrate western institutions, and to build up the economy; anybody who believes otherwise is a fool.

The oilfields are in good shape and making record returns, the infrastructure is better than it ever has been and all the armed services are up and running.

In spite of what some people here say, Bush's proposed missile shield will ramp up the cold war, and we had better pay attention to what is going on in this new arms race.

The doomsday clock is now at 2355, its highest point for twenty years.

147

Conan,

Watching Polmonto Very Closely 06/06/2007 19:21:03

#152 - bit of a little Hitler, aren't you?

148

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 19:26:23

#153 - bill1 - I am Honoured (yes, I'm genuflecting, bowing, scraping deeply).

I will have your post #153 enlarged, cast in bronze, gilted, then set upon the walls of Edinburgh Castle - to be illuminated with a spotlight after dark - as a reminder to all the even Conan can occasionally please bill1 ..... thank you your magnanimousness.

149

Boyce,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 19:28:41

153

Hud on Bill What do you mean ramp up the cold war what you mean is kick off cold war 2.
Theres nae mair USSR but it looks like the attitude in the good ol USA hasnt changed one iota.
It aint the Russians bearing their teeth.
Is there a medical condition for this selective blindness. Whats it called neoconitis?

150

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 19:48:22

#154 Conan, i'm a real gas.

151

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 19:51:04

Conan, having read your posts, it is clear you are not worth reading.

152

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 19:57:19

#158, Polmonto - then why are you reading them, let alone responding to them, you nitwit?

153

Boab,

Glasgow 06/06/2007 20:04:21

#153/155 Sorry to spoil yer love-in but communism is about as likely to surplant capitalism as Islam. Russia is only becoming powerful by becoming capitalist, same with China. I don't really see any conspiracy going on behind the scenes there.

#149 57Nomad: sounds like you've been reading Nietzsche!

#137 Finnking: Hey, you're a white guy with access to the internet. Doesn't that make you part of an elite, at least on a global scale?

154

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 20:05:25

anyone watch the footy?

155

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 20:08:01

#159, ...yeah, that makes sense. bed-time is it?

156

Sambo,

A'm here tae sort things oot 06/06/2007 20:08:08

I wouldn't trust Putin as far as I could throw him.

157

Sambo,

A'm here tae sort things oot 06/06/2007 20:11:36

Wee shooie1 and all ma mates around the world, Am here in Scotland, brought the good weather an everythin.
Go Scotland, the reason they beat the Faroes, that team did'nae have good jumpers.

158

busybee,

USA 06/06/2007 20:26:02

I say hell-ya to the Missile Defense System!

159

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 20:29:22

#165: The voice of reasoned America.

160

Conan,

Here 06/06/2007 20:35:12

#166 - Polmonto - come here ma wee rascal, its time tae huv yur nappy changed.

161

bill1,

06/06/2007 20:48:53

156. Boyce

The cold war never stopped.

162

busybee,

06/06/2007 20:51:44

#166

I don't claim to be the voice of reasoned America. That's MY (one person) opinion.

163

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 20:52:25

Conan....nice name. Watch too much tv?

164

OK Stewart,

OK USA 06/06/2007 20:57:57

119 - Loved your rant! I'm sure there is some logic in there somewhere. Your knowledge of history even exceeds your knowledge of spelling. Redneck is one word. In the mid 1700s the Ulster Scots began to settle the American frontier in large numbers. The were plain spoken, poor, uneducated, hard working, hard fighting, hard praying and hard drinking. They were always a'fixin to do something and had young'uns instead of children. Because they were Presbyterian, they were called by the same name Presbyterians were called in the Borders - they were called rednecks. And because they always seemed to be spreading news about the frontier, they were called crackers.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

165

bill1,

06/06/2007 21:07:34

160. Boab

Communism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive in practice as opposed to theory.

Power and wealth has always been in the hands of the few in Russia; Tsarism, Communism, what they have now (pseudo-Democracy similar to the USA and UK as of late). There has been little real change for the masses under any system.

There is no conspiracy behind the scenes; the same people are in charge as before. They're just trying a new way of running things.

166

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 21:20:39

171 - For one who picks up on a small typo to establish your argument, your knowledge of grammar and vulnerability to typo is amusing.

I'm fascinated by the way that 2nd, 3rd and 4th+ generation US citizens consider themselves in some way 'Scottish'. Being Scottish is as much about the philosophy and experiences of inhabiting this space, as having the surname 'Wallace' or 'Stewart', or having ginger hair. You people aren't Scottish.

167

Faye,

06/06/2007 21:34:44
168

busybee,

USA 06/06/2007 21:52:03

#173- Oh, so you get to make the decision on someone's ethnicity? They aren't Scottish because they don't live up to your standards of what a Scottish person is? You can't change someone's ethnicity, and it is entirely possible to be of Scottish desent and American. The nerve!

169

Polmonto,

06/06/2007 22:03:25

Sorry busybee, but 'Scottish' is not actually a distinct ethnic grouping. I don't blame you - your lack of education is to blame. Big hug to the ignorant one.

love,

Polmonto

170

DrEska,

Canada 06/06/2007 22:06:46

Nice description of Putin and I agree. He is slimy, a former spy, I won't trust him etc....

However it is like talking about one ingredient in a cake lol.

Look who he is dealing with: Bush the neo nazi, Blair the doggy, Chirack the wanna be. What do you expect?

They are all criminals!

So goes the world!

Welcome to China and India the next super powers!

171

Buckskins,

06/06/2007 22:14:30

<151. Boyce, Edinburgh / 8:02pm 6 Jun 2007

Neocon USA

Aye thats exactly what I thought so if the US objects to the Russians deploying missiles close to your borders you cannae be surprised that the Russians are going to object to the US deploying them close to their borders Youre effin hypocracy is breathtaking only topped by your incredible ignorance and stupidity.>

There is a difference between offensive nuclear missiles and a defensive non armed impact missile. Never let it be said you are unqualified to call anyone stupid, and ignorant.

172

OK Stewart,

OK USA 06/06/2007 22:16:51

173 –
What is the source of all this malice? Is it because you see things which are not there? Maybe when you researched my family tree you missed the Germans, Dutch, French, Welsh, and Irish and so you erroneously assumed I consider myself to be Scottish rather than American. Sorry to burst your bubble.
It really is puzzling how much anti-American hatred is routinely expressed on this site. The gentleman to whom I was responding had attacked an American, for an assumed lack of historical knowledge and implied a Scottish superiority of knowledge because many years ago, an American capitalist that left his inheritance to be used in the public interest was born in Scotland. My point was that the writer used a term he thought to be derogatory without realizing the historical significance of the term as it relates to the Scots. I would think that most people, at least those not blinded by prejudice, could see the irony in that!
So, what was your point?

173

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 22:18:20

#38 Archie

No, I don't. Celiac disease involves the digestion of wheat gluten. Tortillas are made from corn so celiac disease doesn't enter into it. I believe his mother knew exactly where Pancho was born, she was there at the time.

174

57Nomad,

california 06/06/2007 22:27:52

#50 Media 1

Media I said:

"#50 GD: Absolutely correct! Whilst America instigated the cold war due to her fear of Russian supremacy in science, technology and other sectors, she also invaded many nations under the guise of peace whilst Russia took care of Russia."

Really, is that right? How about East Germany 1953, Hungary, 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968.

As to Russian supremacy in science, technology, etc., are you joking? In what? Beet science? Vodka consumption? Bad haircuts? What are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

175

OK Stewart,

OK USA 06/06/2007 22:38:05

#181 - The Russians were the first to have rear-window defrosters in all their cars. (It helped warm their hands as they pushed them along).

176

,

06/06/2007 22:59:09
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177

Millie,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 23:26:53

Anyone who challenges the fascist Americans and their European cronies has got to be good. Nice to see that Russia has a real leader again - it would be nice if I could say the same for the UK.

178

Finnking II,

Finland 06/06/2007 23:27:24

149. 57Nomad,

Well done. My point exactly. Nuff said.

179

Angus Lindsay,

Xiang Gang 06/06/2007 23:33:09

#35. Keke, Aberdeenshire
Excellent points. Putin IS the problem. His mindset accords with that of the Russian populace at large whose concept of political leadership is of the strong voice of the people. Not necessarily an elected leader. (He who shouts loudest in defence of the motherland, whether vocally or by implied threat, is the dog's bollocks in Russia.)

Putin, in the context of the modern world, is little more than KGB-lite. He is Soviet to the core, reluctant to disown his secret service background, and doing a bad job of pretending to be "democratic", as are the placemen toadies that surround him.

If Putin & Co can't see that the real threat is Islamic extremism (which he covertly woos - Iran for one bad example), then I hold out little hope for Russia and Russians in the immediate future. He, and Russia, need to see the bigger picture. It's on their own geographical doorstep, after all. Ordinary Russians know that, so why won't Putin ackowledge the fact?

180

Brightraven,

Barcelona 06/06/2007 23:34:37

Whether we like their haircuts or not, it makes not one iota of difference.

Russia is a nuclear power just as the USA is.
Each can turn the other into a heap of rubble.

So Bush wants to play around with this delicate balancing act in America's favour.

... Putting the entire world in peril.

181

Angus Lindsay,

Xiang Gang 06/06/2007 23:34:59

.... acknowledge, of course

182

albanoch,

kyoto Japan 06/06/2007 23:43:38

All you donkeys out there who think Vladimir Putin's the threat are conned, deluded, stupid and there's none so blind as those who will not see.etc.etc. What a load of crap for a newspaper article it reads like some cheap novelette..the real danger is Mr Bush & Co.they're the ones who have invadede other countries and have overstepped the line everywhere. I only hope Mr Putin didn't look too long into Mr Bush's eyes...all he'd see would be the abyss...a black hole...nothingness.
Evil does not come dressed in cloven hooves, forked tail and horns it presents itself as an honest God fearing christian with the Bible under one arm the wife on the other and the two perfect kids bringing up the rear and everyone smiling squeaky clean and saying all the right th

183

albanoch,

kyoto Japan 06/06/2007 23:49:06

Screwed up there...but I'll continue .." saying all the right things about democracy and peace etc. Do not be fooled by any of this. I watched the very sinister Mr Cheney on TV talking about America and stating quite categorically the "We're the new Rome,' Sounds like Adolf Hitler...Look what happened to Rome and all the other empires much less successful. Bush & Co. with all their media propaganda behind them are fooling no one and I'm surprised at Tony Blair for following on like a trained lap dog as that man is NOT an idiot despite what others might think.here endeth the lesson.Amen.

184

Millie,

Edinburgh 06/06/2007 23:51:02

albanoch

Correct.

185

Millie,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 00:04:11

57nomad

Here is your answer - The following Soviet scientists were recipients of a Nobel prize.


Physics
1958 Pavel Cherenkov, Ilya Frank and Igor Tamm "for the discovery and interpretation of the Cherenkov effect"
1962 Lev Landau "for his theories about condensed matter, particularly about liquid helium (superfluidity)"
1964 Nikolay Basov and Aleksandr Prokhorov "for fundamental work in the area of the quantum electronics, which led to the construction of oscillators and amplifiers on the basis of the maser laser principle"
1978 Pyotr Kapitsa "for his fundamental inventions and discoveries in the Cryophysics"
2001 Zhores Alferov (RU) "for the development of semiconductor heterostructures for high-speed and optoelectronics" (working in the time of the USSR)
2003 Alexei Abrikosov (RU), Vitaly Ginzburg (RU) "for innovative work in the theory about superconductors" (working in the time of the USSR)

[edit] Chemistry
1956 Nikolai Semenov For outstanding work on the mechanism of chemical transformation includes an exhaustive analysis of the application of the chain theory to varied reactions (1934–1954) and, more significantly, to combustion processes. He proposed a theory of degenerate branching, which led to a better understanding of the phenomena associated with the induction periods of oxidation processes.

Scientific Research Institutions (NII)
A large part of research was conducted in NIIs — "scientific research institutions" (Russian: ???, ???´???-?????´???????????? ???????´?). There have been a great number of NIIs, each specialized in a particular field.

Ioffe Physico-Technical Institute founded 1918
Institute of Anthropology and Ethnography founded 1933
Institute for Physical Problems founded 1934
Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology founded 1946
Institute of Radio-engineering an

186

Conan,

Here 07/06/2007 00:08:37

#186 - Brightraven - yes, right, and remember they can turn Barcelona into a pile of rubble too ..... so watch your mouth.

187

,

07/06/2007 00:35:40
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Janice Phillips,

Terre Haute, Indiana USA 07/06/2007 01:42:38

People all over the world better wake up---Putin and that Iranian raghead are in cahoots--against us---against Israel and I wouldn't be a bit afraid ro say they have that maniac from North Korea in their little cliche also. Putin is a dangerous man---he is a communist no matter how you slice it, a terrosist of a different breed. Wake up world----before you can't wake up anymore.

189

57Nomad,

california 07/06/2007 01:45:07

#191 Mille

Dear Mille,

You have listed 7 winners. There are more Nobel Laureates presently on the faculty of the University of California than there are in the entire history of the Soviet Union.

So, once again, in reference to the gentleman's claim that we were worried about Soviet scientific and technical superiority, are you joking?

190

57Nomad,

california 07/06/2007 01:50:36

#183 Mille

Mille said:

"Nice to see that Russia has a real leader again"

Gotta hand it to you Mille, not that many people actually express their inner longings for the return of Joe Stalin. Now there was a leader people like you could warm up to.

191

Liz T.,

bellingam,washington,usa 07/06/2007 02:54:49

Georgie bush jr is a real insult, I do not see much in his eyes, and question if he even has a soul. He has sold us all down a distructive path. Ask the everyday people in Iraq. Look at all the blocks of any messures of helping our planet. Our own citizens here have one of the worst medical systems for the everyday person in the states than anywhere in the world. The negative list is getting longer and longer of everything gwb has undone to help at all. Too bad he does not move back down to his home town-their idiot has been gone too long.

192

Conan,

Here 07/06/2007 05:36:14

Putin: A living riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma ...... Jim ...... you have to be kiddin?

There's no riddle, no mystery and certainly no enigma.

The man's KGB from tip to tail, inside and out; always has been, always will be.

This is a 'USSR' man, not a Russian like Yletsin or Gorby.

Its good the world is finding out who is the real enemy - maybe Europe and those Polyanas in the UK will wake up and come to understand that thet COLD WAR never ended.

Incidently, the point is that Putin could only feel threatened by the so-called 'missile defence shield' if he ALREADY HAS PLANS TO ATTACK EUROPE!

193

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 05:54:07

178

Like I said breathtaking ignorance and stupidity.
defencsive, offencive missiles.
I made the point on another post that once a missile base infrastucture is in place you can deploy whatever missiles you want there thats why the Russians are so concerned and why the US would be concerned if Russia were to deploy missiles in Cuba.
Its the same with airports you can build an airport for commercial flights buts whats stopping you using it for military aircraft?
And anyway the US would never allow any type of Russian missile in Cuba so your point is like your thinking warped.

Bill

The first cold war seemed to have ended for Eastern and Western Europe and all the old Soviet satellite countries including Armenia and Azerbaijan and the like with the possible exception of Chechnya and Neocon USA.
Welcome to cold war 2 courtesy of GWB.

194

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 05:55:32

198

And how would you classify GWB?

195

von-Scharnhorst,

Berlin-Preußen (ex Bathgate) 07/06/2007 06:34:31

"122. Finnking II, Finland
"Today, the United States is the only nuclear power that continues to deploy nuclear weapons outside its own territory. "
RUBBISH!

The U.K and France have ICBM armed U-Boots on patrol "outside" their trritory 24/7/365.

196

Conan,

Here 07/06/2007 07:52:17

#200 - GWB, you ask? - A man of superior intellect, on an intellectual plane far above Boyce. A man who has brought great prosperity and freedom to the world. A man who has upheld the greatest traditions of honesty, decency and who is also an awsome orator. The world is a far safer and happier place with the leadership of a man like GWB. Yes, ever since I first met Gerald Wilberforce Balfour I have been very impressed with the man. I hope this answers your question, Boyce.

197

socialmedic,

USA 07/06/2007 08:06:44

OK the American Rupublicans claim that USA defeated Russian Communism - the Fascist Revolution has brought about the Fascist turn in Russian face ... Excuse me, aren't these guys supposed to be BEST FRIENDS? The new Capitalist Russia is the Kiss Ass of USA, NO? Otherwise what was taking credit for the Berlin wall for? I know the answer to these questions, do you?

198

socialmedic,

USA 07/06/2007 08:08:32

I mean really Russia was just a bunch of Capitalist guys begging to break out of the Communist Regime and Reagan and Bush are thier saviors, right?

199

socialmedic,

USA 07/06/2007 08:09:33

So now that Ronnie Reagan and Georgie Bush Senior rescued Russia from Communism everything should be peachy peachy for russia, right?

200

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07/06/2007 08:24:29
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201

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 08:28:49

203

You are absolutely correct we have had Both Bushes Reagan and Maggie Thatcher herself tell us all the Cold war has ended and we won now we have the Neonumpties telling us all their hero's got it all wrong and we are still threatened by the Red hordes of the East.
So if Both Bushe's Reagan and Thatcher got this wrong what else have they managed to get wrong?

202

molu kikes,

baselland 07/06/2007 10:18:05

as bush adminstration is looking forward to nuggets the next axes of evil ,he found that putin is growing horns of dilemma toward his echealon policy of his ghost house . the 43rd bush was known for calling spade aspade , with his arsenic and shambolic speech he claried what the history says ,.he too further embroil putin not to revitalize the former rubber stamp policy which has been eradicated by the elite , .he too further promised to engulf in corporate language for business inorder to have amutual relationship between the two state

203

molu kikes,

baselland 07/06/2007 10:28:33

it certainly clear that the cold war has been banished but the reminent still ther, after the cold war both the named giant of the word have signed the treaty of ABM of 1972 the aim of the treaty was to avoid any noxious gas or any hazard with cause or interfere with stability and liberty in these world , but the treaty could work well as the sole giant regard herself as the mighty has the mandate to carry what they are knowing meaning they governed the state as they said they do as republican do ,., therefore they carry on as also trident is fuelling is process

204

molu kikes,

baselland 07/06/2007 10:34:31

unlike the stalin, ,. boris yelsin ,.and gorbachov they bulid up the russian federation and they are regarded as heroes as they involved in different aspect in the goverment and parastatel body,., they are co friend remembered as history prevail ,.these are people who brought hitler to justice by phoneixing his body as he claimed the arrogant in the region during his era

205

Lamar,

07/06/2007 11:04:30

202. Conan, Here

Boyce is an obnoxious Troll, please ignore it.

206

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07/06/2007 11:13:39
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07/06/2007 11:57:33
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Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 12:03:48

214

But not for the US to become a British colony eh?

209

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07/06/2007 12:14:29
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07/06/2007 12:28:52
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07/06/2007 13:24:54
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07/06/2007 13:41:32
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voltaire's janny,

07/06/2007 13:44:37

#21 Repton.

All you do with your post is repeat your own perspective and demonise the bad guy. I am no Putin aplogist and communism fails as Adam Smith predicts it must.

However the only nation to use a nuke in anger is the US. Twice. You could argue the only reason the US has not done so again is that others now have them.

Whenever any nation state tries to impose its will through armed force there are always two (at least) perspectives. Almost every US president takes his country to war at one scale or another.

This nation with a twentieth of the world's population consumes a quarter of its resources. The current playing field is the middle east where half the world's oil lies underneath friendly-ish dictatorships and one extremely unfriendly democracy (sic). Bush want anti missiles in case lunatic Islam (Iran) gets nukes and targets Europe.

Putin sees this as a strategic power shift in his disfavour. He is right. When it is pointed out that Russia might target Europe we are reminded that targeting takes seconds, it is the presence of ballistic missiles that represents the threat and Bush wants more. In Europe! Why should Putin believe that these have only intercept capability or could not fly against Russias aging arsenal.

I agree Putin is old school, despotic and murderous just like generations of Soviets before him. But that is the devil we know....

Our common language, cultural origin and shared views on capitalist democracies should not blind us to the fact that the US is by far the biggest bully on the bloc and, like Iran, is heavily influenced on policy by right wing religious nutters, who happen to believe Armageddon would be a good thing.

214

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07/06/2007 13:55:55
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215

Michael Moore,

Flint, Michigan 07/06/2007 13:57:02

221. Boyce

Who cares!!! Drop it!

216

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07/06/2007 14:09:51
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07/06/2007 14:18:25
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07/06/2007 14:28:24
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219

John2,

Kent 07/06/2007 14:39:23

For many many years I have welcomed the idea of the USA being a valuable ally (even in the days of "overpaid" "oversexed"and "over here", and I do not apologise for that, but over the past few years I have found that I have less and less enthusiasm with some of the antics their leaders have been playing.

To ring Russia with new anti ballistic system may well appeal to the military but they must have all known that Putin could not just allow this to happen without some reaction on his part, and demanded by his military.

To suggest that this system is purely defensive is to insult the intelligence of most reasonable people (and Putin and his Generals don't come into that category) so what is the real reason ?

When Kruschev sent missiles into Cuba the world teetered on the brink of a nuclear war. True, the missiles were offensive, but what's to stop this new system of the USA to be slowly but surely changed by future developments in technology.

I believe that the USA leadership knew that Putin would have to react strongly and his threat to "target" European" cities may be just what they wanted - to involve the whole of Europe (having withdrawn many of their armed forces over the years).

That's my view for what it is worth, not based on any political dogma or anti American feeling, just a point of view of a man in the street who just cannot understand why this move by the Americans is necessary at a time when we were being led to believe the relationship between the USA and Russia was becoming more amicable.

Any comments on my view will be welcome - in order to assist me to understand it all

220

bill1,

07/06/2007 14:55:07

226. John2

I think your analysis is correct, unfortunately.

There is nothing the neocons will stop at to make money, and they have been encouraged by our criminal Blair in their outrages.

No doubt Bush thinks that a bit of sabre-rattling will bring the EU onside, but he's wrong. We've had more than our share of dodgy leaders through the years, and we can read him like a book, as we can Putin.

221

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07/06/2007 15:35:56
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07/06/2007 16:05:19
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07/06/2007 16:15:26
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224

Landman,

UK 07/06/2007 16:23:16

230. Boyce, Edinburgh

Conan was correct about you being a Troll.

225

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 16:44:33

231

No he isnt I am a genuine poster and try to stick to the issues when I can. Folk like Conan are unable to form any kind of argument to support their case so its easier for them to dismiss the comments they are unable to debate thus the accusation of troll.
Now take a look at the postings I have highlighted in
230 and you will see and example of a genuine troll.
I only post what I believe and like I said I try to stick to the point but I often get waylaid into personal discussions and arguments when my points hit home too hard.

226

Polly Ann,

07/06/2007 16:59:56

232. Boyce, Edinburgh

Why did you call 228 a troll unless you are a troll yourself?

227

Boyce is a Troll,

Moderator #12 07/06/2007 17:08:41

233. Polly Ann

We are taking care of the problem, thank you.

228

Boyce,

Edinburgh 07/06/2007 17:37:05

233

I supposet there is logic somewhere in your question but I am failing to see it maybe you can elaborate.
By the way 234 is a troll thats the difference.

229

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07/06/2007 23:30:11
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230

Conan,

Here 07/06/2007 23:33:13

Also, it appears that www.scottwebb.co.uk.. (note the two full stops at the end of the name) is actually a CIA plant whose task is to sow dissent and pick-up the identity of anyone who clicks on his links.


 

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