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Calman's Holyrood tax power plans 'don't go far enough'

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Published Date: 12 June 2009
PLANS to give Holyrood greater tax raising powers do not go far enough, a leading think-tank has claimed.
Reform Scotland was reacting to revelations in The Scotsman yesterday that the Calman Commission will propose the Scottish Government has far greater control over income tax.

But the members of the centre right think-tank headed by former Conserva
tive candidate Geoff Mawdsley and banker Ben Thomson had wanted the commission to go much further.

The Calman Commission, set up last year by the pro-Union parties to look at how to improve devolution in competition to the SNP's National Conversation, is set to propose that Holyrood should be given control of income tax beyond a 10p basic rate for the UK and 30p and 40p at the two higher rates.

This would give MSPs the power to raise or lower income tax as much as they liked.

However, critics believe that the new power would go largely unused because MSPs would not want to risk losing money by cutting tax or making Scotland the highest taxed part of the UK.

The current "tartan tax powers" of varying Scottish income by 3p up or down have gone unused in the first ten years of devolution.

In its submission to the commission chaired by Sir Kenneth Calman, the Chancellor of Glasgow University, Reform Scotland had called for Holyrood to be made more accountable by giving it the ability to raise and lower major taxes.

The think-tank also called for Scotland to have its own Treasury in a solution similar to the "devolution max" proposals put forward by the Liberal Democrats.

In The Scotsman yesterday, Isobel d'Inverno – of legal firm Brodie's – who had represented Reform Scotland in evidence to the commission, dismissed suggestions that European law prevented this from happening.

She said case law with Portugal and the Azores showed a devolved region could have its own tax powers if there was a proper change to the constitution.

However, Mr Thomson, chairman of Reform Scotland, conceded that, despite his disappointment, the proposals revealed in The Scotsman represented "a real step forward".

But he added: "Our view is the Scottish Parliament needs to have much greater power to raise its own revenue in order to enhance its financial autonomy and accountability.

"This is vital to provide a real incentive to introduce policies which encourage economic growth and provide real value for money while giving the Scottish Parliament the fiscal tools which they could use to increase economic growth."

He said that instead of just under half of income tax raised in Scotland being the responsibility of Holyrood as suggested by the Calman Commission, a much greater proportion – nearer 60 per cent – would provide better accountability.

This figure was based on the proportion of devolved and reserved expenditure in Scotland.

Mr Thomson added: "The proposals do not go as far as we recommended in our report, Fiscal Powers, in which we called for the Scottish Government and parliament to be given control over a range of taxes so that they were responsible for raising all the money they spend in Scotland."

Sources on the commission have said that they wanted to provide more accountability but not undermine Scotland's financial stability.

Body that likes to think the unthinkable

REFORM Scotland is a centre-right think-tank set up last year to provide a different perspective on how to take Scotland forward.

Its chairman is Ben Thomson, a former Scottish international athlete who is now a leading banker and head of the Noble Group based in Edinburgh.

The group's chief executive is a former Conservative candidate Geoff Mawdsley, who also at one time worked for the ex-Tory leader in Holyrood, David McLetchie.

Since it was launched in April 2008, the think-tank has produced several controversial papers.

As well as setting out a blueprint for a highly devolved Scotland with extra tax-raising powers, it has proposed a complete shake-up of the education system, arguing parents should get government money to fund new independent schools.

Another paper has called for a rethink of the exams system, while a third has demanded greater patient rights in healthcare and an end to the NHS's monopoly on services.





The full article contains 709 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

11/06/2009 21:56:44
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2

Brianwci,

12/06/2009 00:17:19
Only two possibilities will have any lasting success. One of course is Independence itself, the other is full fiscal autonomy.

Anything else is mere window dressing by British Unionists who are being dragged kicking and screaming along a constitutional path which has the bright sun of Independence looming ever closer.

Without question civil servants on both sides of the border will be making contingency plans for the break up of the union.

These guys are realists if nothing else. The very fact that they are preparing for the 'possibility' says it all.

We are Living History. The end game is in progress.
3

The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 00:22:01
Male employment higher in England than in scotland
Male unemployment higher in scotland than in England

Public sector employment lower in England (less than 1 in 5) than in scotland (more than 1 in 4)

Something tells me scots males are private sector workshy!, 50% income tax of nothing = nothing.
4

Iainbroch,

12/06/2009 00:28:31
Calmans stinking red herring, bin it for a seagull would not swallow this rotten carcass!

Lets stop wasting time - Independence now!
5

Conan the Librarian™,

12/06/2009 00:32:37
5
Indeed Berero.
A rather pathetic attempt to annoy most Scots.
6

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 00:40:42
This is all reformist nonsense.

7

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 00:41:36
For any ex labourites that was a joke.
8

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 00:45:13
Calman has not allowed voters to take part in the process. Labour and their bedfellows, the Tories and the Lib Dems, have conspired to stop people participating in the debate, refusing a referendum, and for parties that call themselves democratic this strikes me as odd. Calman was never about giving the 80% or more who support greater powers for the parliament more powers; it was about putting the breaks on public support for change. It won't work and we're not having it. Bring on an election and let us sweep Calman aside.
9

Observer,,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 00:45:23
Devolution without borrowing powers is fundamentally flawed, it worked for a period because Labour were running the country like a pyramid scheme, but now tinkering about at the margins is fairly useless quite frankly.
10

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/06/2009 01:17:48
40%, 50%, 60% or 100% of IT revenue is no change from 3%.

If you are confined by any other body, in this case Westminster, as to how it is applied; the power is useless!!!

FFA is, also, not acceptable because the power to utilise our revenues, as we see fit, would be constrained by Westminster priorities.

We have past the "baby-step" stage. Holyrood is up and running and it has proved that Westminster is a tier of government we don't need.

With the severely limited powers available to Holyrood we have achieved, in governance, most of the "innovatory" schemes, now, proceeding from Westminster.

But, Westminster will never work to meet the aspirations of the people of Scotland as it has delusions of grandeur: the UK is a world power and, as such, must maintain the trappings.

The Union is "aw fur coat, an nae knickers.".
11

Edward,

12/06/2009 01:22:16
Like I commented on the story yesterday, I prefer if Calman went the whole Hogg and gave Scotland ALL of the Tax revenue and I mean ALL!!
Of course that would mean Independence, but I could live with that quite easily!
12

Jo Flo,

short fuse 12/06/2009 01:30:38
A leading think tank

sewers can talk now

what the fek is a leading think tank?

helloooo

13

Canny Mann,

The Kingdom 12/06/2009 01:57:17
This report isnt journalism, it is sound bites to have the people who want independance, worrying at the bone. There is nothing in this report that gives scottish people any reason to vote for any of the main parties as an alternative to Independance.
As one poster said,"why should we accept a slice of bread, when we can have the whole loaf"?

This report is the stereotypical "Too little, Too late". The pro union parties know the scots are annoyed, have been deceived, mislead and hoodwinked by consecutive governments under Tory and Labour leadership.

If westminster hadnt been so greedy, they could have devolved everything to scotland in 1999 and levied a charge or tax to pay a share of UK running costs(defence, NHS, cross-border agreements etc). As it is westminster wanted to have the lions share of everything, dribbling out devolution in dribs and drabs.

Scots want either full devolution or independance.

Giving little titbits here and there and threatening to return some powers to westminster if Holyrood doesnt use the powers the way westminster dictates, is not devolution. It is the big boy taking his ball away in the huff, when he doesnt get to call the shots.

Removing powers from holyrood and returning them to westminster, does not reassure scots that the whole devolution plan would not be revoked at some time in the future(We have experience of westminster U-turns).

This report does nothing other than fan the flames in an already heated debate. Men in black hidden in the shadows, are quite content to pull strings to have scots fighting scots. They fear a politician calling for independance who can mobilise the people, encouraging the masses to connect with the vision of a better tomorrow in independance and following through with little achievements to demonstrate what big moves could be made, with the permission of the people.

Alex Salmond as the leader of the SNP has done just that. Though SNP have had to govern with thier hands tied beh
14

Canny Mann,

12/06/2009 01:57:57
Continued...
behing thier backs (the unionist block of tory, labour, lib-dem, interfering with student fees, imposing the trams on edinburgh etc) they have provided a breath of fresh air to scottish politics.

Vote SNP.

Alba gu brath...
15

,

12/06/2009 03:27:21
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16

donald,

glasgow 12/06/2009 03:47:17
I call for the resignation of the Onionist Calperson Committee. Point of Order!
17

The End Is Nigh,

Highland 12/06/2009 05:49:40
Bla Bla Bla,
More unelected people with no authority trying to tell us what is right for us.
Get this, Were not interested in what you think, come the election we'll tell you what we think.

Get these people a real job, they obviously have far too much time on their hands.
18

Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 12/06/2009 06:36:07
"Calman's Holyrood tax power plans 'don't go far enough'"

Aye, that will always be true.


INDEPENDENCE, NOTHING LESS.






19

David MacVicar,

web 12/06/2009 06:51:13
Nobody cares what the Calman deck chair arrangers propose or their unelected side kicks. Nobody cares except the Scotsman - you know the paper people stopped buying since ages now.

The Union interest in Scotland is like MPs expenses.
Take as much as you can get away with.

Calman commission = Mutton dressed up as lamb.

The Unionists try to pretend it has a mandate because the cabal in the SP backed by British Labour in London wanted it. Thats Unionist democracy for you: Nobody had this in their manifesto and when they get beat they set up a pretendy constitutional commission that exludes the representation of the Biggest political party and a large section of the public. Sheer desperation and utter arrogance.



20

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 12/06/2009 07:13:43
There should be no more devolved powers before the referendum on Independence.
Whilst preferring to remain within the Union I would much prefer Independence than the whining talk shop that is devolution.
21

Joe Plaice,

the Nutmeg of Consolation 12/06/2009 07:19:34
Good posts on here showing that Scots have a good grasp of what the unionists are trying to do and showing that they won't succeed. We want the whole loaf, plain or pan, we don't care, even if it's smaller than the bits of bread we get just now, it will be ours and that's what's important.
22

McNasty,

Edinburgh 12/06/2009 07:32:01
Independence is not just about money, taxation or oil revenue.

It is a matter of honour to run our own affairs in our own country.
23

Marian,

12/06/2009 07:46:13
History tells us that there is nothing surer in this world than the fact that Scots should beware of New Labour proposals to tinker with our Parliament - for behind their proposals there is always a hidden threat to it, or a theft of something much more valuable from Scotland..
24

TWC,

exLabour 12/06/2009 07:51:16
#1 & #2

Spot on both these alternatives would give the people real choice for the future in the referendum.
Any short fall would force us to cut benefits and the public sector in line with what we can afford.
25

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 07:58:08
Scrap the ethno-regional talking shops and give more tax-raising power, and responsibility to the local authorities. Put education and policing in central control.

What morons are proposing giving yet another layer of politicians yet more tax raising power to gather yet more taxes? Ah... that would be politicians proposing that.
26

letmein,

hinterland 12/06/2009 08:09:40
Why are the hootsmon printing anything about this so called commission. Bin it and be done now.
27

TWC,

exLabour 12/06/2009 08:16:56
32 letmein,

The outcome of these Calman negotations will decide the TOTAL future of Scotland. I don't think Labour realise that people will judge the Unionist parties intentions for Scotland based on how much they fight for.
28

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/06/2009 08:27:04
#31 Tin Man

"Put education and policing in central control."

The last desperate gambit of the failed union.

"What morons are proposing giving yet another layer of politicians yet more tax raising power to gather yet more taxes?"

That would be the unionist morons. The SNP is not proposing a new layer, in fact they are proposing getting rid of a very corrupt and useless layer of Government.
29

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 08:30:50
#33 TWC

Let us not forget what a failure Holyrood has been. We need to be entirely realistic about these things - Holyrood has failed Scotland and we would have probably been better-off being run out of Westminster. I think that not enough responsibility has been given to, or taken by MSP's. I suggest we allocate them full responsibility, and sack them - they are a national embarrassment.
30

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 08:34:44
#34 Kampung

"The SNP is not proposing a new layer, in fact they are proposing getting rid of a very corrupt and useless layer of Government."

Certainly agree with that one. Abolish the failed Scottish government, and the idiotic Holyrood institution, and give more local power.
31

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 12/06/2009 08:44:27
Reform Scotland is a two person "think tank", maybe it should be reclassified as a "gold-fish bowl".
32

noswod,

Honestas 12/06/2009 08:46:05
Perhaps these Tories shud learn tae add up. Scottish Govt budget £33bn pa. £6bn pa higher than it should be. British Tories get in and its doon tae £25bn a year. Economic capacity O Scotland to generate taxes at current rate £20bn. Hey Jimmy its a gap a wee big gap. The only solution is if Scotland wishes to maintain its welfare dependancy state income tax basic rate at 50%. The best option has alwys been tae keep oor mouths shut and keep on takin the £33bn frae WhiteHa. Naye much chance O that with Wee Ecky although he kens the economics O a bust bank soon tae be transfered tae a bust Nation 1707 he we come again.
33

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 08:48:24
When Westminster, of all places, performs better on the areas that Holyrood has responsibility for, than Edinburgh, it really goes to show what a pointless rabble we have elected to represent us as MSPs. At least it has put Edinburgh house prices up, though.
34

TWC,

exLabour 12/06/2009 08:49:47
35 The Tin Man,

I disagree, I think that Holyrood has been a revelation to me. If I were youger I would actually become active in politics. I will admit thet the replacement of Wendy with Elmer Fudd has devalued the Scottish Parliament.

Just think how much more positive Calman would be if it was following Wendy's plan rather than Brown's.

There would be real debate.

I suppose it is possible there will be a real fight yet, but who will stand up for Scotland.
35

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 09:05:30
#40 TWC

The illusion is pleasant. The actual results for the people of Scotland have been poor, when compared to Westminster, and that should be the real debate - not the mirage that Holyrood foists on us. I think it was set-up to propagate the illusion, and it has worked on you, and probably the majority of Scots.

Scottish policiks:

SNP: incompetent.

Labour: corrupt.

Lib Dems: useless.

Conservatives: Thatcher!!!

Greens: 'wear woolly jumpers during power outages.'

Margo: 'subsidise Edinburgh swimming pools out of Aberdeenshire business rates.'
36

TWC,

exLabour 12/06/2009 09:11:47
42 The Tin Man,

No Tin Man,

I have watched carefully and while you may find examples of all the above I have ahd more results out of Holyrood than I have out of Westminster.
I strongly believe that Fiscal Autonomy for Holyrood and a similar set up in the other Home Countries would reduce the total number of politicians.
Only enough reps to handle reserved Matters would travel to Westminster. Add to that the removal of the H.O.L. and we would all be better off.
This is the way to save the Union and modernise.
37

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 09:17:06
#43 TWC

Sorry, I don't see any evidence to suggest that Holyrood actually deserves tax raising powers. For one thing, they almost certainly wouldn't use tax-raising powers, and secondly, if they did, history points to them frittering money away on pointless policies with no long-term benefit to Scotland.
38

TWC,

exLabour 12/06/2009 09:18:46
44 The Tin Man,

They need Full Fiscal Autonomy and then it is all down to us. Have faith.
39

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 09:19:01
#43 TWC

Have a look at what counts: education, health, and the economy. Despite record expenditure from Holyrood, Westminster performed better. What comments do you have on this situation?
40

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/06/2009 09:36:56
The more we talk about Calman, the more credibility it gets.

#4, that is why these articles are repeated.

Calman is a unionist exercise in order to disenfranchise the people of Scotland and impose upon us a political and fiscal system on us that Westminster and maggie Brown wants.
41

,

12/06/2009 09:36:57
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42

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/06/2009 09:41:58
42 TM

The usual rambling nonsense.....
43

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/06/2009 09:43:42
46 TM

I think you need to provide some evidence to support this:

"Westminster performed better"
44

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 09:45:39
#48 24

"The report by John McLaren, who was a co-architect of the Scotland Act and advised the first two Labour administrations at Holyrood, claims Scotland’s once high-achieving education system has been particularly devastated by home rule, with standards falling behind those south of the border.

While Scotland’s health service had a poorer record than that in England and Wales in 1998, standards have now slipped even further behind.

The economy’s performance has also suffered under devolution, with Scotland’s output lagging behind England’s, according to the report.

t suggests public services may have been better had the Scottish parliament not been created and its powers remained at Westminster. “One can tentatively conclude that government being closer to the people has not led to improved relative performance in Scotland. In fact it may have had the opposite effect,” it states.” It says too many policies have been “about wanting to make Scotland stand out and wishing to be popular”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6122746.ece

The report was dismissed by MSPs of all creed, in a dismissive way, after all, health, education, and the economy, pale into insignificance when Labour, Lib Dems, and SNP find free bridges of greater importance.
45

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 12/06/2009 09:51:03
Well, we all knew it was coming.

Alistair Darling has just announced that UUK's (Un-United Kingdom) "recovery" could be 'held back" because of inflation (I wonder what has caused that??) and because European countries are not doing enough.

Prepare the way of the Lord Maggie Brown - a voice crying in the Wilderness.
46

mr broon,

Edinburgh 12/06/2009 09:54:03
In a few years time, the excessive cost of the Wendy Alexnder inspired 'Calman report' will no doubt cause outrage, after it is thrown into the dustbin of history.
47

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 12/06/2009 10:02:02
46 The Tin Man

"Despite record expenditure from Holyrood, Westminster performed better."

Yup, Westminster and a lot of London floats on a sea of public money. No wonder they have (alledged) done better. They are, quite simply put, a drain.
48

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/06/2009 10:05:05
51 TM

What you quote at length is someone's opinion, which whilst interesting, is not the same as evidence. what indicators are being measured to make this comparison? Even then, correlation does not prove a causal link.

Give us some real evidence.
49

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/06/2009 10:06:41
TM - Still waiting for your reply to #50.
50

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 10:11:01
#55 connaughtboy

Here is the actual report, based on auditable figures:

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/pdfs/sunday_times/sundaytimes190409.pdf
51

,

12/06/2009 10:11:20
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52

,

12/06/2009 10:18:41
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53

The Tin Man,

12/06/2009 10:33:19
24

Health and Education are fully devolved to a Scottish government. If anything, the report highlights the independent Scottish government spending more on health and education than their English and Welsh counterparts, but with poorer results. I don't see anything to differentiate the SNP, Labour or the Lib Dems.

These are important issues, and need to be taken seriously. Free school meals for rich kids etc, etc ad infinitum, are not.
54

brianmca3,

auld reekie 12/06/2009 10:33:51
if the lib dems had this guy as leader in england brown would be scared,i applaud him for saying to broon what everyone can see and know yet broon just laughs
see for yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs
55

,

12/06/2009 10:49:40
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56

,

12/06/2009 10:50:08
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57

frank mcbride,

lusitania 12/06/2009 10:54:12
#38, nosewood

Before pontificating on the so called Scottish "deficit", especially extrapolating from the article above, you should put your brain into gear.

The SG will not be receiving 50% of the IT take in Scotland:

50% of 20p band.

25% of 40p band.

20% of 50p band.

In no-one's language is that 50% of the total IT revenue.

Also, when you calculate revenue, all taxes should be included: VAT, Corp. Tax, Stamp duty, Excise duty, inheritance tax etc.

When all revenue streams are taken into account, there is no deficit.

Beware of lies and obfuscation in any statement from Westminster, or its mouthpieces.

But why am I telling YOU this........you know it already, don't you?
58

,

12/06/2009 11:29:53
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59

,

12/06/2009 11:32:49
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60

,

12/06/2009 11:36:51
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61

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/06/2009 11:47:17
#57 TM

Thank you for that. An interesting read. I suggest you re-read the Conclusions section at the end of the report which discusses the uncertainties surrounding the causes of any underperformance. There is no causal link to the establishment of devolution.
62

ecosseman,

FACTS NOT PROPAGANDA 12/06/2009 11:49:36
ARROGANT AND GREEDY LONDON TRYING TO CHEAT SCOTLAND OUT OF HER RIGHTS AND WEALTH.(WHATS NEW THERE THEN)

GET LOST MR GB,YOUR BAD HISTORY.

YOU NEVER LISTEN OR LEARN.

SCOTLAND CAN STAND PROUD IN THE WORLD WITHOUT YOU.


ROLL ON THE ELECTION!

63

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 12/06/2009 11:50:35
60 TM

"Free school meals for rich kids"

A rather twisted view in my opinion.
64

Ewan Randall,

12/06/2009 11:55:42
(#63) - (24) - "i before e except after c"?

• absenteeism
• agreeing
• albeit
• atheist
• beige
• being
• caffeine
• canoeing
• codeine
• counterfeit
• deign
• deity
• edelweiss
• eiderdown
• eight
• either
• fahrenheit
• feign
• feint
• feisty
• foreign
• forfeit
• freight
• gneiss
• heifer
• height
• heir
• herein
• leisure
• leitmotif
• madeira
• neigh
• neighbour
• neither
• oleic
• pein
• plebeian
• pleiades
• protein
• seize
• reign
• rein
• reinstate etc
• reveille
• seeing
• sheik
• skein
• sleigh
• sleight
• sovereign
• spontaneity
• surfeit
• surveillance
• their
• therein
• veil
• vein
• weigh
• weight
• weir
• weird
• wherein
• ancient
• co-efficient
• concierge
• conscience
• deficient
• efficient
• fancied
• financier
• glacier
• hacienda
• inscient
• omniscient
• policies
• prescient
• prima facie
• proficient
• science
• society
• species
• sufficient


65

JaF,

12/06/2009 12:11:12
The report by John McLaren.The Sunday Times. April 19, 2009

Quote: The report uses life expectancy as a key indicator of the performace of the health service. It was already lower in Scotland than in England before devolution, but since 1998 has fallen further behind. Unquote

Life expectancy at birth
M 1997 Scotland 72.6 : England 75.2 diff 2.6
M 2005 Scotland 74.8 : England 77.5 diff 2.7
F 1997 Scotland 78.0 : England 80.1 diff 2.7
F 2005 Scotland 79.7 : England 81.7 diff 2.0

Life expectancy at 65
M 2005 Scotland 81 : England 82.3 diff 1.3
F 2005 Scotland 83.3 : England 85 diff 1.7
66

jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 12:58:05

Post 24 @ 62 TIMSS results, December 2008:

Out of 16 OECD countries Scotlands children (S2) were 7th in maths & 9th in science. In both subjects English children outperformed Scots. children

The Times league tables for UK universities. In the top 10 only one Scottish University...St Andrews. Oxbridge Unis. of course were top.
67

TheDisplacedGlaswegian,

Edinburgh 12/06/2009 13:03:38
#73 is that an argument for staying in the union?
68

Brianwci,

12/06/2009 13:11:14
Reform Scotland and the Lib Dems have it right. Only Devolution Max will come anywhere near to preventing the breakup of the UK.

And even that isn't guaranteed. The concept of Britishness was a major world success but it's raison d'etre has long gone.

Britain needs a fresh start, a major shot in the arm. It either becomes the 51st State of the USA (unthinkable) or the constituent parts develop a fresh impetus by going their own way in friendly but independent competition and cooperation.

Independence is an idea whose time has come.

73 please, no more meaningless statistics.....try adding reasons.
69

jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 13:16:53

TDG @ 74 ..... I hope not! Brianwci @ 75.... just info. for 24. but arent you the poster who likes to list numerous links to stats. etc. show how inventive you Scots are? What are the reasons for those statistics?


70

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 12/06/2009 13:24:39
"but arent you the poster who likes to list numerous links to stats. etc. show how inventive you Scots are?"

Yup, the Scots are a d@mn sight more inventive per head than you English.
71

jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 13:31:26

Of course you are Andrew Morton........who would think otherwise.

How do you measure these things anyway?.......cue for Brians links?
72

Peter20,

Edinburgh 12/06/2009 13:32:03
As an Englishman living in Scotland I feel the break up of the Union will be sad, but devolution doesn't work. How cam a party run a country with its financial powers restained by a neighbour? I think independence is inevitable, but how long will it take to settle the terms of the separation. Brace yourselves for a very ugly divorce, but we'll all be happier once its over!
73

Andrew Morton,

Berkshire 12/06/2009 13:35:52
Peter20

Do you have an anecdote to tell about how you have been subject to racism whilst in Scotland?
74

jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 13:38:25

Quite agree Peter20 @ 79......an excellent analogy!
75

,

12/06/2009 15:29:40
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76

TWC,

exLabour 12/06/2009 15:29:46
46 The Tin Man
I've been a way, sorry
education, health, and the economy.

There is little can be done on the economy with less than 33 Billion and that mainly fixed to support Health and Education.
What litttle they have is restrictive.

I actually think they have improved with the Nats but I am hopeful that the SLAb will take a more direct control with Fiscal autonomy.

I actually think all parties will benefit at Holyrood wit fiscal Autonomy though it may dent aspirations for Independence.
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Geoff,

sa 12/06/2009 15:31:43
The Calman Commission was fatally flawed from the start and its proposals are just more half baked nonsense. What is desperately needed is a UK wide Constitutional Convention that examines all the options and includes all the major and minor players -ie as inclusive as possible for maximum legitimacy. I am amazed at how muddle headed most british politicians are when it comes to the Constitutional and political setup in the UK at present-a total mess that will lead to an acrimonious breakup unless the problems are acknowledged and faced intelligently , head on and soon!
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Jimmy Le Pie,

12/06/2009 15:37:39
#73 jane shore,

You said that only St Andrews is in the top ten UK universities.

Scotland has 10% approx of the UK population.

Do you think we should have more uni's in the top ten??

And St Andrews is 4th in the table which I would suggest is very good!!
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Geoff,

sa 12/06/2009 15:54:44
79 peter20-good comment
Devolution has always been a half baked affair and can never work as presently constituted. I would like to see the Union preserved albeit in a very different form but Unionist politicians dont seem able a. to see the problems and b.address them in an intelligent manner. Labour has been a disaster for the UK -its treatment of Alex salmond and the SNP has not only lacked grace but has immensely damaged the Unionist cause they supposedly espouse. If the tories gain power they must treat the SP with respect and defend the Union by presenting a positive case for its retention.
Your comment re-'financial powers retained by a neighbour' -remember that neighbour is the BRITISH not English parliament so the Scots ,numbers imbalances notwithstanding, do have a say over their finances via Westminster
85

jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 16:00:34

Jimmy @ 87

I dont think the size of the country is relevant to the University league tables. The criteria are research, student satisfaction etc.

English Universities do very well in International tables too, using the same criteria. Oxbridge , LSE & Imperial well up there, & England is a small country compared with the USA.

AJ @ 88 .... that is careless journalism, Scottish Unis full of English & foreign students and vice versa. FULL? you mean as in complete/total?

Anyway I was really answering 24s guff about the superiority of Scottish education system. I couldnt let that one go!
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/06/2009 16:04:26
#89 AJ

A lot of the difference can be explained by the fact that alcohol consumption is higher and tobacco use is more prevalent.

Spending money on more Doctors sometimes will make little difference when people have already made lifestyle choices that will shorten their life expectancy.
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morris,

edinburgh 12/06/2009 16:43:01
Westminster receives more from Scotland than she returns to her.That is why we are wanted by Westminster. Anyone who has any understanding of even basic economics will know this.
When Westminster parties say they act in the interests of the majority of the United Kingdom,presumably they mean the more populous parts of the United Kingdom , and none more so than LONDON and ROSELAND.

The UK has huge debts and North Sea Oil will be what they intend to use to start repaying the complete self serving screw up that is Broon and Darlin.
Any tax proposal will never ever give Scotland a fair deal because thats not how the UK works.
The UK has always been Londoncentric and it does not matter what they propose,independence will always be advantageous to Scotland, but probably bad news for the South who have been milking us dry for years.


Brian Wlson even had the audacity to claim that Labour had explained to the Scots that they were a very wealthy country if we became independent, but we rejected this!
The are such a bunch of liars they cant even admit what every single one of us knows they did because we were there every day for the last 30 years !


THE CASE FOR INDEPENDENCE has been known for years even by Westminster based parties who suppressed the McCRone Report (and told both Scots and Others alike a load of crud).

As somebody asked earlier ,why have a slice of bread when you can have the entire loaf. Why indeed!
Westminster cannot offer anything which is inb Scotlands interests so why even listen

SAOR ALBA .
Independence is not the answer to everything
but its the answer to everything else !At least we can afford to tackle our problems.
Thats always a good start!
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/06/2009 16:51:31
#96 AJ

According to the GERS 2006/2007, while Scotlands population is 8.4% of the UKs we accounted for 12% of the Tobacco Duty raised and 9.4% of the alcohol duty.

That clearly shows a higher per capita consumption rate for both products.
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morris,

edinburgh 12/06/2009 16:55:30
97

I recall (as a Nalgo and UNISON shop steward for many years) that Labour in opposition claimed that the then Tory unemployment figures were an estimated 1 million at least understated,and probably near enough 2 million is well possible.
When Labour were elected two things became a possibility.
1) Labour changed the way figures were calculated which means that on the day at which the change was implemented the figfure was increased overnight by at least 1 million ..............................or
2) They are also using doctored figures.

Since not even Labour can tell us when that change and subsequent 1 million increase took place .............one can only conclude that LABOUR arealso a bunch of stat manipulating liars.

Statistics can be used to prove anything, but arithmetic is either correct or wrong.

LABOUR ARE ALSO LIARS the only possible conclusion !
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 17:54:10
Facts about a so called scottish education and the results!


A massive:

7% of scotland domiciled new undergradutes elected to study in England 2008

A tiny

1% of England domiciled new undergraduates elected to study in scotland 2008


8% is scotland share of the UK population, yet scotland domiciled full time undergraduates make up only 7% of the UK total 2008, magine how much less it would be if scots had to pay?




For each Westminister Parlimentary Seat!

A tiny sum of

8 England domiciles elect to study at a Scottish university.

yet

A massive sum of

30 Scotland domiciles elect to study at an English university.




For each Westminister Parlimentary Seat!

A massive:

650 New Fulltime Undergraduates are produced in England

yet

A pathetic:

498 New Fulltime Undergraduates are produced in Scotland




UCAS WebSite 15-Jan-2009
Table 6

tinyurl.com/cvuzer
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 18:04:30
104#

Those figures are for consumption, produced my scots government, false of course, how on earth do the scots manage to smoke 50% more than an average memeber of the UK.

But the figures are used to xtract extra revenue out of the English, lucky for the scots nobody ever questioned the absured sums.

It's just what scot's do.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 18:06:32
105#

Read the report on the UCAS website, or is the truth hurtful so much to scots.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 18:20:29
108#

scotland gives free university places to all and sundry from the EU, otherwise how else would the scottish univeities manage to put enough bums on empty
seats.

your not by any chance a white unemployed or public sector working scotland domiciled male are you, if so you on average are more likely to be unemployed or have to work in the public sector when compared against a white England male domicie.
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Alan B,

12/06/2009 18:21:26
We desperately need full fiscal autonomy along with devolution of social security.

Calman has become a sad joke.
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Alan B,

12/06/2009 18:33:36
#The Answer

We all know westminster has mismanaged scotland badly and only by gettng rid of it and sorting out westminsters mismanagement can scotland reach its full potential.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 18:35:34
111#

yes, scots pay the same rate of income tax as the English, yet manage to consume vast sums of English tax to pay for a pubic sector 25% larger than in England, and social security benefits costs 20% higher than in England.

110

Alan B,

12/06/2009 18:40:19
#The Answer,

"Pupils in Scotland are 50 per cent more likely to progress to higher education. More than 37 per cent go to to college or university compared with just 25 per cent of English students.

Scottish schoolchildren are also up to a third more likely to get good grades at age 16."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462923/Scottish-apartheid-means-Scots-university-English-children.html
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/06/2009 18:41:36
#104 AJ

Exports would not be subjected to excise duty. It is where the term "duty free" comes from.

The argument asserted earlier by Tin Man was that Holyrood was doing a poorer job of managing the health services because our life expectancy is lower than the UK average.

You can not make this assumption when it is obvious that Scots consume more alcohol and tobacco on a per capita basis and these are known to have a strong impact on mortality.

The Scottish NHS may actually be doing a much better job of keeping their patients alive than the rest of the UK but will still have lower life expectancy rates because of higher alcohol and tobacco use.
112

Mèths,

12/06/2009 18:42:10
116

Who let you out of yer cage sonny? You posted this pash before on the Herald.
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 18:43:14
Your name was "scotland only 8% of UK, consumes 11% of social security". It was trite pash then and it's trite pash now. Grow up.
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 18:43:42
Then again, there's the union benefit.
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 18:49:02
The Answer

"your not by any chance "

And you have the cheek to slag off Scottish education?
It's "You're not by any chance."

The apostrophe in "you're" stands for the missing "a" - as in "you are". Got it? Thought not.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 18:50:24
117#

Facts fom UCAS.


Facts about a so called scottish education and the results!


A massive:

7% of scotland domiciled new undergradutes elected to study in England 2008

A tiny

1% of England domiciled new undergraduates elected to study in scotland 2008


8% is scotland share of the UK population, yet scotland domiciled full time undergraduates make up only 7% of the UK total 2008, magine how much less it would be if scots had to pay?




For each Westminister Parlimentary Seat!

A tiny sum of

8 England domiciles elect to study at a Scottish university.

yet

A massive sum of

30 Scotland domiciles elect to study at an English university.




For each Westminister Parlimentary Seat!

A massive:

650 New Fulltime Undergraduates are produced in England

yet

A pathetic:

498 New Fulltime Undergraduates are produced in Scotland




UCAS WebSite 15-Jan-2009
Table 6

tinyurl.com/cvuzer
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 18:52:06
124#

The figures for smoing and drinking consumption are produced by the scots government, i'm sure the govenment didnt mean to includeconsumption from sweeden for example.
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Mèths,

Mortar board city 12/06/2009 18:54:51
The Answer

"univeities", "pubic sector", memeber", "It's just what scot's do."

You're all over the place sonny. Fair enough the normal slips in spelling as you rush to amazes us all with your half-baked "facts."

Unfortunately, you don't seem to be able to grasp what apostrophes are for. You miss them out when they should be there, and you bung them in when it's palpably wrong.
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 18:57:47
The Answer

"smoing ... govenment ...didnt... sweeden"

You are barely literate.
Slow down and try to at least approximate the English language.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 19:03:24
130#

Do they speak "English" in scotland?

Next you will be telling the world that edinburgh is a world heritage city , along with the only 2 world heritage cities on the planet , Bath and Venice.
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jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 19:04:32

Meths .....dont be such a pedant....this is blogging....how old are you, very old?

The Answer. (111) Good stats. those, (UCAS published & approved as well.) Only thing is Scottish Unis. do not extend the courtesy of free education to English & Welsh students, just any other EU students...nice that!
SNP quietly sorted that out within 4 days of May Scottish Parliament elections, 2007.
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/06/2009 19:07:48
#116 The Answer

"yes, scots pay the same rate of income tax as the English, yet manage to consume vast sums of English tax to pay for a pubic sector 25% larger than in England, and social security benefits costs 20% higher than in England."

I don't know where you are getting your figures but according to GERS 2006/2007 Scotland spends 9% more on Social Protection but also contributes a larger amount of revenue per capita.

According to GERS in 2006/07 Scotland spent £2.7 billion more than it contributed as revenue.

For the same time period the UK Deficit was £36.8 billion.

Scotlands Per Capita Share of the UK deficit was £3.1 billion

Which means that in 2006/2007 Scotland would have been better of by £400 million if it had been independent.
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 19:11:45
jane

"Meths .....dont be such a pedant....this is blogging....how old are you, very old?"

The dumpling is discussing education. A slight grasp of the subject would be a help.

Then again you are probably correct. I shall desist forthwith!
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 19:13:44
Actually Jane - I shall desist forthwith from this article. Sheer idiocy from some posters showing a general ignorance of the subject makes the responses a tad pointless.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 19:14:20


134#

Only two cities on the planet are World Heritage sites. While it's true that parts of other cities have the cherished status, in just two cases does the designation apply to the whole place. One of them is Venice. The other is Bath.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/apr/06/bath-heritage-architecture
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jane shore,

london 12/06/2009 19:14:26

Careful AJ (136) Miss spells & no apostrophes....Meths will be after you.

Why resort to the abuse, resident idiot is it? You really are an inferior journalist.
134

jane shore,

12/06/2009 19:16:36

Ta ta Meths .... Im off too, its a lovely evening. (missing two apostrophes)
135

The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 19:17:46
yet on the scots government website for edinbrgh the following:


EDINBURGH WORLD HERITAGE CITY
The historic centre of Edinburgh, including the medieval Old Town and the Georgian New Town, was inscribed on the United Nations Education, Scientific and Cultural Organisation's (UNESCO's) List of World Heritage Sites in December, 1995

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/CEC/City_Development/Planning/World_Heritage/whman3.html

I'm shocked that they would even dare write stuff like that, but scots will be scots.
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KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 12/06/2009 19:27:43
#124 AJ

From GERS

"Tobacco and alcohol duties are only collected if the product is consumed in the UK. If the product is exported, the producer receives export relief. For example, while duty is levied on Scotch Whisky when it leaves a bonded warehouse, in reality it is only collected if the whisky is consumed in the UK. Consequently, the ultimate payer of the duty is the UK consumer of the product."

"Therefore, GERS estimates duty collected from Scotch Whisky based upon the level of whisky consumption in Scotland, even though Scotch Whisky is only produced in Scotland. Similarly, the estimate of tobacco duty collected in Scotland is based upon the level of
consumption of tobacco products in Scotland, even though most tobacco goods are produced outside Scotland."

It states pretty clearly that they base their numbers on actual consumption.
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The Answer,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 19:39:07
147#

so just how much smoking and drinking tax as a % of the UK total comes from scottish consumers ?
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KampungHighlander,

12/06/2009 19:46:32
#147 AJ

" This statement doesnt refer directly to your statistics does it?"

Please explain how,
"the estimate of tobacco duty collected in Scotland is based upon the level of consumption of tobacco products in Scotland" does not refer to the statistics?

145

The Col. of Monte Cristo,

12/06/2009 19:51:28
Here is the Answer...What was the question?

Africa
Kashusha * Lamu * Zanzibar *

Arab States
Aleppo * Damascus * Fez * Marrakesh * Sana'a * Shibam * Sousse * Tunis * Zabid *

Asia and the Pacific
Andong * Chengde * George Town * Hué * Kandy * Kathmandu * Lalitpur (Patan) * Luang Prabang * Melaka * Vigan *

Europe and North America
Alcalá de Henares * Angra do Heroísmo * Aranjuez * Avila * Bamberg * Banska Stiavnica * Bardejov * Bath * Beemster * Berat * Bergen * Berlin * Bern * Biertan * Bordeaux * Brugge * Budapest * Cáceres * Cesky Krumlov * Cordoba * Cracow * Dubrovnik * Edinburgh * Évora * Granada * Guimarães * Ibiza * Istanbul * Kazan * Kotor * Kutná Hora * L'viv * Le Havre * Lunenburg * Luxembourg * Lübeck * Lyon * Mantua * Moscow * Mostar * Namur * Nancy * Nessebar * Oporto * Oviedo * Provins * Quebec * Quedlinburg * Rauma * Regensburg * Rhodes * Riga * Røros * Sabbioneta * San Marino * Santiago de Compostela * Segovia * Sighisoara * Sintra * Stralsund * Strasbourg * Tallinn * Tel Aviv * Toledo * Torun * Trebic * Ubeda * Vatican City * Vienna * Vilnius * Visby * Warsaw * Wismar * Yaroslavl * Zamosc *

Latin America and Caribbean
Arequipa * Camaguey * Cuenca * Diamantina * Guanajuato * Havana * Mexico * Morelia * Oaxaca * Potosi * Puebla * Quito * San Miguel de Allende * St George * Trinidad * Valparaíso * Willemstad *

http://www.ovpm.org/index.php?newlang=eng
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Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 12/06/2009 20:22:37
The Col. of Monte Cristo,12/06/2009 19:51:28

I see Edinburgh in the list.

So much for "The Answer" at 142.

How about suggestions for a new name for "The Answer"

How about "The Delusional"

No No Wait! I have it. How about - "The Liar"

147

nostress,

grangemouth 12/06/2009 20:29:30
I wonder if it ever occurs to these Scotch-Unionists the extent to which the English despise them. The English are a proud independent people and have nothing but contempt for craven crawlers. For proof, these Unionists need only look at what the English actually think about North-Brit Bulldog Brown.

I genuinely cannot fathom how some people are content to be subservient in all they do.
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KampungHighlander,

12/06/2009 20:43:01
#149 AJ

"Unless retailers start taking note of the nationalities of all their customers and register what they buy how can it be measured?"

Aye, it must be all those Dutch People coming on the ferry and then loading up their white vans with ciggies and alcohol that are making the Scots look like they consume more.
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Jo'Burg Jock,

South Africa 12/06/2009 20:43:36
The Answer,Glasgow 12/06/2009 19:03:24
130#

States:-

"Do they speak English in scotland?

Next you will be telling the world that edinburgh is a world heritage city , along with the only 2 world heritage cities on the planet , Bath and Venice."


Well there are more than 2 listed in the Colonel's list and one of them is spelled "Edinburgh"

I think an apology is required from the "Liar" or "The Answer" or whatever it calls itself.

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Observer,,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 20:58:20
If you analyse the statistics Scotland's mortality figures relate to poverty (and not just poverty financially but poverty of hope) and related ill health. Yes - a *section* of the Scottish population smoke and drink themselves into an early grave, along with poor diet and other substance abuse. It is not a lifestyle choice in my view. Poor housing also has a role - and economic inactivity.




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Observer,,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 21:04:58
160 Indeed you can. However, the gap between the mortality rates in areas such as the Calton or Drumchapel compared to Mount Vernon and Bearsden are rather shocking and not found in comparable countries such as Norway etc.

If - as Kampung thingy is implying it is a *general* health problem that the Scots have then it could be approached through public health campaigns - like they did in Finland with demonstrable results.

But if it's related to poverty (both real and of aspiration) then it becomes a lot more complicated - in my view.
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KampungHighlander,

12/06/2009 21:06:43
#157 - 158

" Perhaps you can produce the statistics showing how many dutch people buy their ciggies in Scotland no doubt government derived of course?"

And perhaps one day you may be able to dislodge your head from your rectum.

What would be the point of finding statistics when you are to pedantic to believe them anyway.

Goodnight waste of oxygen.
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Observer,,

Glasgow 12/06/2009 21:13:29
164 You can't actually ''lift'' people out of poverty by giving them a wee bung with a tax credit, which is what Labour did.

But what they gave with one hand they took with the other, as stealth taxes have a vastly disproportionate effect on those with low incomes, so it's academic really.
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Canny Mann,

The Kingdom. 12/06/2009 21:13:30
How come the posts on this report have gone off topic so badly.
The fact that one university is further up a league table, or scots apparently smoke more tobacco and drink more alcohol, has absolutely nothing to do with the report.

The dribs and drabs provisions of Labour styled devolution does not work.

Scots want 100% devolution or independance.

If voters go with devolution then Scotland must have full autonomy within the UK. Scotlands government would have a charge or tax levied against it, to pay its share of UK running costs (defence, NHS, cross border agreements etc).

If westminster limits, restricts or refuses autonomy, then the ONLY alternative is Independance.

Any country whose policies deprive, in any fashion or form another country, has self interest at heart. Scotlands right to self determination, is a choice for the scottish electorate.
Many English posters visit this website and my word the majority of them have said "If scotland wants independance, then for goodness sake, get on with it." The English people themselves recognise scotlands desires and in general dont care one way or another. It seems it is only westminster politicians who wish to restrict scotland leaving the union.

Lets get back on topic, the calman report is a dead duck, possible frightened by a floating duck house.

Vote SNP.

Alba gu brath...

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Mèths,

12/06/2009 21:38:34
This Feria will be the death of me - or the total disintegration of my one and only liver.

The Answer. Here's an idea. How about you only answer if we ask you a friggin' question?
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Mèths,

12/06/2009 21:39:35
Sorry - I returned. Only for a tad though. Feria till 5:00am.
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morris,

edinburgh 12/06/2009 21:41:29
102 I just read that now.I note that nobody saw fit to even take issue with what we both agree is correct.That I would say speaks volumes.

They KNOW we are correct!
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morris,

edinburgh 12/06/2009 21:56:59
168

Of course that is correct and every single person I ever met in England said unequivocally if that's what you want then you should do it.
For that I salute them.
Of course we must remember that the load of garbage about Scotland being subsidised which we were fed over the years has also been perpetrated south of the border.

Whilst I applaud those who are clearly respecting our democratic wishes be met,I wonder how will they feel when it becomes clear to them that like Scotland, they too were conned into believing that Scotland was unable to stand alone,when clearly we have a much smaller and much more manageable economy,and the oil revenues multiply in terms of effect because of that (by a factor of around 12 or so I have heard). No doubt someone will have a more accurate assessment !
Of course they would not be such a significant part of The UK (minus Scotland) economy which would be inconvenienced certainly,but proportionately and significantly less so.Nevertheless the people have been conned and its all of the UK which should demand an explanation one day !
As I have said many times our enemy is ourselves the Scots,and Unionist politicians,the English Welsh and Northern Irish electorates are innocent and have also been lied to and used.
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S.M.D.,

Edinburgh 13/06/2009 16:22:16
This comment in the Scotsman says it all
"The Calman Commission, set up last year by the pro-Union parties to look at how to improve devolution in competition to the SNP's National Conversation"

It's been set up by pro unionist party's, therefore it most certainly will be bad news for Scotland.

Why is it allowed for 'only' pro unionist party's to look at such a report?
For THEM to decide over Scotland?

The fact is, that if the oil revenue would have stayed within Scotland , those living within Scotland could have had those schools/hospitals/nurses/public transport etc, which are desperately needed now.
If that weren't a fact, why else are those south of the Border are so desperate to keep the union.
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morris,

edinburgh 13/06/2009 19:24:10
175


Whilst I understand fully what you are saying I cannot resist the temptation to post what I know fully well you are already only too well aware of .
Devolution was an exercise in power retention and was never intended to provide good governance, because apart from anything else,it is an admission of bad governance by its very existence.
It is the case that we can never have a devolved settlement which goes far enough,because even full fiscal autonomy, whilst being an attractive proposition from a Scots point of view,is a taboo subject from a Westmidden point of view.The position is as it always was,power devolved is power retained and the right to dump (or oppose of course) nuclear waste ,install nuclear power,and have nuclear weaponry will never be devolved as will control over our own finance.
The choice is simple : Independence or short changed .

I am not even interested in debating Westminster or Calman proposals because like devolution they are at best a delaying tactic,and if we are stupid enough to entertain such in any form,they are tantamount to a licence to plunder Scotland's wealth and use her as a nuclear dustbin.
WE MUST NEVER ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN and I mean NEVER !
170

FTH22inarow,

13/06/2009 22:34:26
total independence or disband this talking shop please

 

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