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70% of English want Union but most still foresee UK break-up



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Published Date: 10 December 2007
SEVEN out of ten English voters want to keep the Union between England and Scotland, an opinion poll has revealed.
Just 24 per cent of people questioned south of the Border want the two countries to separate and six out of ten feel more British than English.

But it also shows that 48 per cent of English voters fear the United Kingdom will only survive in its current form another 25 years, and 59 per cent believe the Union will be broken within 50. Just 18 per cent think it will survive indefinitely.

The poll by a Sunday newspaper came on the eve of a visit by Tory leader David Cameron to Edinburgh today. He will meet Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie, and make a speech to party supporters at Dynamic Earth, near Holyrood. Mr Cameron will then meet representatives from the Scottish financial-services industry.

Shadow secretary of state for Scotland, David Mundell, said that a debate last Thursday on the Union and devolution in the Holyrood parliament was the most important since it was set up eight-and-a-half years ago.

He said: "The future of devolution is a cross-party and cross-border issue. David's visit is a demonstration of our commitment to creating a strong and prosperous Scotland within a strong and prosperous UK."

But Scottish National Party leader at Westminster, Angus Robertson, said the poll showed that the English were slowly realising the Union was falling apart.

Mr Robertson said: "There's a growing realisation in England that the 18th-century Union is a busted flush which is old fashioned and out of date.

"What this poll shows is that it's time for a new 21st-century relationship based on equality and mutual respect.

"Our 'National Conversation' is leading the process for change in Scotland with, for the first time, all opposition parties in Holyrood agreeing that Scotland's parliament should have more powers, with the status quo no longer an option."

Meanwhile, UK Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor Jack Straw rejected a finding that 27 per cent of voters believe the Tories are more likely to stand up for England's interests, compared to just 10 per cent who believe Labour and Gordon Brown would do so.

However, most of the voters polled also said there was "not much difference" between the two main UK parties.

Mr Straw said: "It is so dangerous for the Tories to go down the route of English-only voting at Westminster, which would ultimately lead to the break up of the Union. This is not what the British people want."

Acting Liberal Democrat leader Vincent Cable said: "The Union is one of our greatest achievements and it is alarming to see the growth of pessimism about its future."

John Curtice, Professor of Politics at Strathclyde University, said the poll showed that people in England were far from convinced the Union will survive.

The full article contains 494 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 December 2007 12:29 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The union
 
1

druidh,

10/12/2007 01:33:57

So. We all know it's gonna happen. It's just a matter of when.

2

I'm no really here,

10/12/2007 01:51:35

I'd more interested in a Scottish Poll on the same questions.

3

Freeman Stand,

10/12/2007 01:58:55

Much as I respect and admire our southern neighbours, it's not really up to them to decide on the Union. If we decide to leave, then that's that - as proved by numerous reborn countries who recently left the Soviet Union.

4

Bad Yin,

Nostalgia! 10/12/2007 02:18:36

The party's over
It's time to go!

Same goes for Wee Wendy and her bunch of sleaze merchants.

5

Willie Macleod,

Wick 10/12/2007 03:23:46

The picture is enough what is this Bugger all natio nality We are free people

6

Watson,

Irvine 10/12/2007 05:43:04

So 70% of England now realise that Scotland is keeping them afloat?

7

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 10/12/2007 06:39:14

#6 Watson
As usual we always have the gracious one on the poster board.

This was an indication of what peoples feelings was towards Scotland and nothing to do with Scotland keeping anyone afloat.

Pity morons like you are still floating anywhere.

8

A Better Way,

10/12/2007 06:48:33

Wee Wendy and the rest of the crooked Unionists are trying to create a commitee that will involve English politicians to come up with an answer to what they can do to delay,stretch out the blawbags reasons to keep us in check.

Wales, Kosovo and Belgium will shortly follow Scottish Inspired Independance. The English Politicians have absolutely no say in Scottish Matters. The Nation of Scotland and the Nation of England signed an Act of Union. Like any divorce it only takes one member to demand a divorce. Even though it was signed in an act of betrayal by a very small majority of Scots, the point is that is was a signed agreement that each party can disolve of their own accord. Crooked Wendy, Nicol and Annabel can say and do what they want but it will be rejected by the Scottish People. Come the next Election the SNP will be returned by a majority, and the people of our land will decide by placing their mark under yes or no for Independance. The minute they vote yes the United Nations will be invited to conduct the seperation of the two countries. It will not be an English matter other than negotiating the division of debt and assets that Scotland is entitled to.

We wish the English all the best in the future. Its going to be very difficult for your country to maintain its pretend super power status but just imagine how much you will save when you empty Government Departments that will be obsolete and not required for a small country. You lot can keep the likes of Brown and his mafia, we dont want him up here.

9

Roballe,

Aberdeen 10/12/2007 06:59:01

In my experience, 70% of England appear to be either married to, work alongside, or have good friends that live in or originate from Scotland. In much the same way they appear to accept and welcome colleagues and partners who are ‘British Caribbean’ or ‘British Asian’, so too do they value the Brits from north of the border. It’s difficult to have so many high profile Scots in the English media, business, politics, sport, music and the arts, and not then accept the inclusiveness of people in England. Those same 70% would no doubt be disappointed if Scotland voted to separate, but their attitude would probably be ‘your choice, good luck to you.’ At the rate that people are currently migrating to England from around the world, they’d make up the numbers within 10 years. And a good many of the best and brightest from Scotland would still continue to seek their futures south of the border.

10

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/12/2007 07:48:00

Just 24 per cent of people questioned south of the Border want the two countries to separate and six out of ten feel more British than English.

Yes, feel more British than English because to be British is to be English. The Scots, Irish and Welsh (Celtic nations) are expected to adopt Englishness to be British.

I think I'll stick to developing my Celtic/Gael nationality thanks.

11

eddylongshanks,

10/12/2007 07:48:44

#8 - how many English do you think really care about the "pretend super power status" ? Though I suspect England will not be the biggest loser - and that aint politics, its an economic fact.

And no - we've had enough of your pretend politicians down here as well, we can screw it up ourselves thank you.

12

eddylongshanks,

10/12/2007 07:49:32

Hi Dave - hope you are well ! Merry Christmas...or is that too early ?

13

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/12/2007 08:02:57

Very well thanks eddy!

No, not too early if my kids are anything to go by. And the same to you and yours too!

14

Number 6,

Germany 10/12/2007 08:29:41

All the more reason to break away. The English don't know who they are. National identity beaten down by decades of "Political Correctness", ruled by
people they see as grasping scots, a nation heading for financial ruin and social implosion. No wonder they don't want to let go of our coat-tails.

Now, is Alexander and the rest of the corrupt LABOUR mps in jail yet?.

15

Ken S.,

Independent England 10/12/2007 08:56:05

Read the Telegraph's Britishness campaign (plus related articles such as Cameron interview). Then read comments to see whether the Telegraph or the recent poll are entirely in tune with the readership!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinio...

#10. Dave from Barra
"... six out of ten feel more British than English. "

No, DfB, just 37 per cent of English would describe themselves as "British".

16

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 08:56:14

Why is it that so many of those in favour of independENCE can't spell it?

17

james 1st,

nz 10/12/2007 09:09:29

it is easy for the english to feel british, 95% of people worldwide just think that the name britain is just another name for england ,so the english do not lose their national identity feeling british.i htink it is unfortunate that the union has to be broken but scotland needs policies that put scotland first to survive ,and those policies have never been forthcoming from westminster. even noethern england is treated badly by westminster which seems only interested in london and the southeast

18

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/12/2007 09:10:48

Ken S

Do you think I wrote the article from which I took the quote?

19

Ken S.,

England 10/12/2007 09:10:51
20

Ken S.,

England 10/12/2007 09:14:30

#18. Dave from Barra

Sorry, hadn't intended to imply that you personally had misinterpreted, as opposed to the Scotsman text. I came onto here in a bit of a temper that the Telegraph was putting a bit of a pro-British gloss on the figures and wasn't thinking straight :-(

21

Watson,

Irvine 10/12/2007 09:16:52

7 Pinelands
I must have hit the nail on the head. looks like someone doesn't like to be told who's footing the bill.

22

Boy Wonder,

10/12/2007 09:25:17

The Union won't survive 20 years, mind 50. Perhaps even less.

23

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 10/12/2007 09:32:07

#21 WATSON

You hit nothing on the head Ii just like to see good in people

Not like you, who probably only likes himself.

I notice you have to write your poster in English
always a come down what.

Now back to your hate mode

24

Gregor Addison,

Scotland 10/12/2007 09:35:53

I'm happy to call myself British. It doesn't stop me wanting independence. I'm sure even once we are independent there will still be a sense in which we are British, though the relationship will change. After all, were we any less British before 1707; were the English any less British then? We share elements of culture, family ties, etc., but for me it all comes down to power over decision-making. If Scots are against Trident being located in Scotland, can we do anything about it? Clearly not.

25

carrottop,

Dumfries 10/12/2007 09:51:57

The union gives us strength in depth, going it alone would leave us vulnerable to the old Scots socialists inflicting their unworkable ideology on us. Yes to more independence, No to total isolation.
My thoughts are that if you take a good Scot out of Scotland you end up with a great one, leave them in Scotland and they get dragged down to the lowest level. Maybe the older Scots should grow up a little and leave the old masonic, socialist mentality behind before contemplating independence. The young are ready with next to no one wanting to live in the Wendyhouse that the unthinking socialist would want us to live in.

26

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 09:58:17

#25 Unfortunate use of the word wendyhouse

27

Ken S.,

10/12/2007 09:59:01

25. carrottop,
" if you take a good Scot out of Scotland you end up with a great one"

.. And if, as in Westminster, you take a bad Scot out of Scotland you end up with Nulab!

28

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 10:08:06

#25 But I agree - I do believe the union has been the only thing stopping Scotland sink into communism.

I wonder why these polls only ever ask England and Scotland, I would be interested in what NI and Wales think.

Would 60% of the NI population (and you you know what 60% I'm talking about) say more British than Northern Irish.

It would be an interesting comparision to see how the other countries in the union felt.

29

carrottop,

Dumfries 10/12/2007 10:08:53

Never ceases to amaze me how many posters on the Scotsman site wait in the shadows to comment on other posters, obviously nothing to say for themselves.
26# note the cap W on Wendyhouse and maybe work out why its there.
Got a life so off to get on with it now.

30

Micropacer,

10/12/2007 10:13:09

I cannot see independance happening in my lifetime and im 33.

Frankley I dont think there is enough supoprt for it. Its easy to think reading these and other forums that most people are Nats but thats simply not the case.

Most people just want to earn a living and enjoy life. I think Mr & Mrs average dont really care if Scotland is independant or not. I used to be a full time supporter of Independance but now im older I dont really care anymore. My extended family couldnt care less - none would call themselves British but neither would they vote or care abour Independance.

I think people on here that think its round the corner have managed to convince themselves of this despite all the facts.

The simply fact is people dont really care and most would say if it aint broke dont fix it. You may say the UK is broke (I would) but thats not what I mean.

Most people in Scotland work and earn a semi decent wage - to them it makes no difference if Scotland is in a Union with the Faroes.

31

AJ of Fife,

10/12/2007 10:17:29

I'd be surprised if 70% of English people gave a toss about the Union! I would be amazed if 70%of English people knew what the union was!

The ending of the union is a big deal in Scotland, but down south until recently, it barely merited a mention. Scotland is useful to Westminster for many reasons, but I doubt if ordinary English people are interested at all in the grievances of the Scottish nation. Why should they be, they've got enough issues with Westminster themselves.

32

Adrian Clegg,

England 10/12/2007 10:18:27

United we stand - Divided we fall.

It's already happened in Northern Ireland.

You have been warned.

33

Ben Arty,

10/12/2007 10:29:43

I'm a Fifer, a Scot, a Briton, a European.............I don't write it as my address any more, but I do remember as a child going all the way down the page to The Universe!

More devolution of power. and all the way down to households and the people within them. But please let's base that on principles of justice, freedom,solidarity and responsibility rather than on spurious national identity

34

Media 1,

cape town 10/12/2007 10:34:24

I think the people of Scotland should decide what is best for Scotland...And just the people of Scotland! I live in SA most of the year and I only return to Scotland for 3 months per annum, so even I should not have a say! Only those living in Scotland should get to vote in a referdum...
I think we all know that Scotland will be worse off without the union, but the question is "what do the people want"?
Let the people vote, and then we can put this sorry topic to bed!

35

Worried Scot,

10/12/2007 10:34:27

Well said English Voice!

Unfortunately reasoned debate is not welcomed around these parts, it's too full of nationalists painting their faces blue, dancing round bonfires screaming "FREEDOM" and attempting to counter any dissenting opinion by shouting about how much they hate Labour.

However, for what it's worth, some Scots are intelligent enough to realise that what you say is of course true. We would be our nation with our own voice, but we would be so insignificant that no-one would listen.

Many thanks for your intelligent, well thought out post. Commence the nationalist screaming!

36

Nick_Byrne,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 10:38:58

#29 I fully understood why you used it - your reaction is a bit OTT.

37

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 10/12/2007 10:49:31

It's ok Ken S, we all do that from time to time.

Stay cool.

38

Bad Yin,

On Fire 10/12/2007 10:53:09

EV - Trident!

39

Adrian Clegg,

England 10/12/2007 11:08:38

# 34 Ben Arty.

Is the classic example of New World Order fodder and his conditioned deluded mind leaps out us.

He speaks of freedom and justice, the very things that our forefathers fought and died for and then he wants to give it away to Europe and the New World Order or to the Power Elite - International Banking Conspiracy.

40

somerferg,

oz 10/12/2007 11:08:51

Oh what a shame #36 no screaming nationalists just laughing ones at your pathetic comment. As for #33 pleeaassee don't even get me started on that load of tripe. Suffice to say english voice you have just set out what must be a ringing endorsement of the call for english independence. Roll on - the sooner the better and let england return to doing what it has been doing for 400 hundred years now ie stealing, looting, and generally making itself the most unpopular set of people in history. Difference will be of course that wont be my country for a change.

41

somerferg,

oz 10/12/2007 11:11:01

p.s and english voice if you think Trident is such a good idea park it across the road from your home or better still next to Westeminster.

42

Bad Yin,

On Fire 10/12/2007 11:11:28

EV - Scotland neither has nor wants "Global Assets/Territories". Just our oil and our fish - and it's not the Russians, Chinese, or some islamic theocracy that's robbing us of these. The Scots don't want Tridant - end of.

43

Reckless,

Fife 10/12/2007 11:42:37

There is no room for national sovereignty or family in our globalist society.

Britain (including Scotland and Wales) don't exist anymore - we're just fragmented regions of the EUSSR.

When Comrade Miliband signs the EU treaty on 13th December, you can kiss goodbye to liberty and embrace another long, destructive period of European tyranny.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news....

http://www.eu.prisonplanet.com/

44

Bad Yin,

On Fire 10/12/2007 12:10:54

48. An English voice... / 11:35am 10 Dec 2007 posts:

"Isn't it strange how the most passionate nationalists live outside Scotland where economic reality comes a poor second to sentimantal images of mist-covered glens populated by stags and golden eagles, saltires flying from endless castles and crofts and where all political, economic and social ills are instantly cured by simply becoming yet another small country in a big world."

Most Scots in the diaspora remember the deprivation of inner city ghettos. A country where you had to emulate an english accent to get ahead - just think Gordon Brown. A country that was systematically lied to as the McCrone report clearly demonstrates. A country where we had to put up with the likes of you. But not for long now. Away back to Grimland - there's a good chap!

45

Saul Tyre,

Germany 10/12/2007 12:27:52

An English voice...

Do you think a nation seeking indpendence is an evil idea? It happens all over the world and the catalyst is always a growing lack of acceptance of the state in which that nation is a contituent part. Many Scots are not happy to be part of the British state and wish to see Scotland (like Ireland, Denmark and others) independent with all that independence entails.

Who are you to tell us that Trident should be stationed just down the road from Glasgow? Who are you to tell Scots to keep quiet because they live abroad? If Britain is so great and so important to you, why is your nom de plume not A British voice...?

You are right to criticise third rate Scottish politicians such as Gordon Brown but Britain became unpopular long before then and Thatcher is anything but Scottish.

I have never felt British. Does that make me small minded or just plain bad? You're right out of step with what's happening in Scotland right now and you sound like you take your aruments straight out of the Telegraph.

I acually like England (except for the football commentators and sports writers) and I look forward to the day when the British state is a thing of the past and our two nations can live together in harmony.

46

Henry De Tamble,

10/12/2007 12:30:48

48
EV.
I became a Nationalist in the eighties,when Thatcher destroyed the Scottish economy.
Hundreds of thousands put out of work,just so she could fund tax-cuts for the SE of England.
Never again shall a Tory have power over me and mine,if I can possibly avoid it.

AND I DIDN'T SCREAM ONCE.

Until then that is.

47

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 12:37:22

A couple of quick points:

1) The 60% “more British than English” figure seems too high. In January of this year an ICM poll found the following mix of senses of national identity in England.

British not English: 19%
More British than English: 12%
Equally British and English: 41%
More English than British: 11%
English not British: 11%
Neither British nor English: 3%
Don’t know: 2%

2) I agree with English Voice about Trident. This idea put about my people like Bad Yin that “the Scots don't want Tridant - end of” is nonsense. In fact, an April 2007 ICM poll for the BBC found that a small majority even of SNP supporters said they agreed with the proposition that “Britain should continue to have nuclear weapons”.

48

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 12:38:28

#52 Henry De Tamble

Thatcher did not destroy the Scottish economy! I suggest you read this:

“Scotland is better off because of Thatcher”
http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=518592004

49

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 10/12/2007 12:49:53

Why is the SNP not fighting for seperatist referendum?

We have an SNP goverment who are not holding a public debate on the matter. Maybe they should change the party's name?

50

Adrian Clegg,

England 10/12/2007 13:03:13

# 49 Well said Reckless, but have you noticed one thing, none of the blind numb skulls on this thread are reading what you or I am saying or if they are it's not registering in their brainwashed heads!

Like lemmings rushing head long towards a cliff.

51

Ken S.,

England 10/12/2007 13:16:36

#53. AM2,
"..The 60% “more British than English” figure seems too high.."

It's wrongly stated.

33% English, not British + More English than British
21% More British than English + British, not English
The rest Equally English and British.
See link to poll summary at #19 above

52

Pinelands,

PINELANDS. Where the heart is 10/12/2007 13:17:39

#33
Well stated.

should shut up old Watson and his stupid comments about England hanging onto Scotland to pay the bills.

The sooner guys like Watson start to find out the facts and make a role call of the Scottish population the better .

They live in cuckoo land

53

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 13:23:37

#57 Ken S.

Ah, that's pretty much in line with previous polls then. Thanks Ken.

54

Joe M.,

Edinburgh 10/12/2007 13:27:49

I note 'the Britman' has missed out this bit of the poll:

59 per cent of those polled would call themselves "English" if asked their nationality by a foreigner, while 37 per cent would call themselves "British."

55

Henry De Tamble,

10/12/2007 13:53:30

54
AM2
I was made redundant twice in the eighties.
The greeting between my ex-workmates was "Ye workin'?"
The traditional industries which once employed hundreds in my area are now gone.
Is this a good thing?

56

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 13:56:30

#60 Joe M.

You've misrepresented the question. It wasn't about nationality. According to the Telegraph summary at least, it simply asked "What would you call yourself abroad?"

57

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 13:59:25

#62 Henry De Tamble

Not to detract in any way from what you experienced at the time, but in the main it is a good thing, yes. Scotland is considerably stronger for it.

58

kimba,

10/12/2007 14:25:21

Less than 25% of Scots want to break up the union, and England just wants to be treated fairly,so if England gets put on a even footing with Scotland,the union will last a good few years yet.

59

Henry De Tamble,

10/12/2007 14:33:49

64,65
What about the effect long term unemployment has had on our (excuse me Maggie) Society?

60

kimba,

10/12/2007 14:40:52

It wasn't just Scotland that felt thatchers axe,the north-east of England had shipyards closed,but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger,and we in the north-east certainly got stronger,so in a round about way we have a lot to thank thatcher for!

61

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 14:40:57

#61 Jennifer

Do you mean "closes down" as in switches off? Or "closes down" as in freezes? If the latter and you're using the link in post #19, it is likely that either you don't have Adobe Acrobat reader istalled or that on trying to launch Acrobat your system has opened a "do you want to upgrade to the latest version of Acrobat?" window behind other open windows. If that's the case, then because you haven't answered the question, the document hasn't opened and your machine feels like it's seized up. Minimise other windows until you can see the window requiring a reply. Hope that helps.

62

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 14:42:44

#67 kimba

I agree. That's the overwhelming conclusion of the poll.

63

Henry De Tamble,

10/12/2007 14:43:08

66
Sorry Jennifer,haven't a scooby,but you could
run a scan to see if you have picked up any nasty cookies.

64

kimba,

10/12/2007 14:45:06

68. there are jobs if people want them,trouble is some would rather sit on their a--e and let the state keep them

65

kimba,

10/12/2007 14:51:00

71,AM2. But there lies the problem,I'm afraid Gordon & co will not put England on a even footing,hence a growing resentment of Scotland,brought about by a scot!

66

kimba,

10/12/2007 15:06:39

76.Totally agree.

67

,

10/12/2007 15:11:08
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1217847, Article id was mapped to record!
68

kimba,

10/12/2007 15:26:18

AJ. Nice try widget boy,please try and grow up!

69

AJ of Fife,

10/12/2007 15:32:26

kimba,

I've told you before...I'm only 14....so what do you expect!?!

70

kimba,

10/12/2007 15:40:03

AJ,Why don't I believe you,'cos your full of c@@p!

71

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 15:44:45

#74 Kimba

I'm optimistic - not so much about Gordon Brown but about the general situation. The SNP win in May and Henry McLeish's book, in particular, have forced unionists out of their complacency. We wouldn't have seen the three unionist parties in Scotland get together to kickstart the Constitutional Commission if they weren't committed to forging consensus among themselves. As a direct result, resolving the so-called democratic deficit in England will have to move up the agenda - and a good thing too.

72

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 15:45:57

#81 Kimba - Why not just let him spin his wheels?

73

AJ of Fife,

10/12/2007 15:58:25

Arthur#82,

Sweet talk the dreaded kimba at your peril. She/he/it might turn up at your office door in Edinburgh!!

Kimba, by her/his own admission, comes up to Edinburgh on "business trips" - normally during the tourist rich period in August! You don't want any unseemly stooshies on yer ain doorstep, do you?

74

Enigma,

10/12/2007 16:03:28

2. Well a poll in England is a start, I`d be more interested in a referendum, like evryone else in the UK got.

3 It`s not up to the English to decide on the Union`.

What if we decide to leave the Union, or give you the push?

75

Enigma,

10/12/2007 16:22:09

84

What you suggest `English seats in Westminster Hall` would be an English Parliament. Do I assume that non-English constituency MPs would also be barred from holding English portfolios?

76

lorren,

Scotland 10/12/2007 17:35:38

English voice


Why the bitter tirade and name calling.

You sound like someone who knows they are losing the fight. Why do you want Scotland to stay with England ?

No one ever answers that question

77

Saul Tyre,

Germany 10/12/2007 18:07:42

#90 Lorren,

You just asked the question which no English man or woman can seem to answer. I'm sure they're not thinking about Scotland's well-being. They just go on about a lot of superficial spin like 'stronger together', the 'tried and trusted Union' or 'messy divorce'. And they wonder why we want independence.

78

Saul Tyre,

Germany 10/12/2007 18:16:08

#89 'whinging, whining, moaning, money-grabbing SNP crowd'

Is that how you describe people who support independence for their nation? Admit it son, your hand is deinitely NOT on the pulse of people who support the SNP. You haven't a clue what you're going on about and if you really are the voice of the English people, we'll be independent sooner than many think.

I dont know what chip you have on your shoulder but it must go back a long way.

79

Worried Scot,

10/12/2007 18:19:15

'We' don't want independence. Is it not estimated that around 25% of the population do? Meaning 75% do not? Nice to know the voice of sanity still prevails...

80

Ken S.,

England 10/12/2007 18:54:02

91. Saul Tyre,
"You just asked the question which no English man or woman can seem to answer"

No-one ever asked me. My answer is that I have absolutely no problem with Scottish or English independence. This is purely on the basis of satisfying whatever the majority wishes are in each case and nothing to do with rants about money, taxes etc. A referendum is needed all round.

In practical terms, I think that federation is a more likely event than independence, at least as an interim measure.

81

Lee M,

England 10/12/2007 19:06:39

Hello all.

I'm totally behind Scotlands Independance, then again i would like to see Wales go to.

I think the "union" has run its course and isnt relevant. I think their would be a lot more mutual respect for our nations if they where indepentant and not run from London.
Down here in England our identity gets squashed or hijacked by the "union flag" etc. English has been wiped out most of our official forms etc. But you still get Irish & Scottish etc. Need i say anymore.

When i visit Scotland on holiday its nice to see your national flag flying and its such a shame when you drive back into England and see the "union flag".

Go for it Scotland

Lee

82

Saul Tyre,

Germany 10/12/2007 19:13:06

#95 Ken S.

Well said. No Englishman HAS TO answer the question. That why I'm wondering about the strange posts from someone calling himself AN English voice... I suspect he may be a Unionist Scot stirring up trouble. I have absolutely no problem with the English people and I wish them all the best.

Your post reflects the very mature and sensible discussions I've had with Englishmen concerning Scottish and English independence. Our opponents are not SOUTH of the border.

83

john z,

10/12/2007 19:17:15

Of course this is purely an academic exercise, as independence for Scotland is not any business of the English. Do you think the pollsters told the people they questioned??

Sooner the better for Independence, I say, then the English can be English, and the Scottish can be Scottish, and we can finally kick this 'britain' nonsense into touch.

84

john z,

10/12/2007 19:24:45

Has Wendy resigned yet??

85

kimba,

10/12/2007 19:26:50

98. This"Britain nonsense" as you put it,has served us well over 300 years,it may not be perfect,but a h-ll of a lot of other countries wish they had it!

86

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 19:39:19

#98 john z

Over 85% of people in the UK see themselves as British, in addition - of course - to being English, Scottish etc. Do you think they've all been brainwashed? Are they stupid? Ignorant, perhaps? Why do you think they don't agree with you that Britain is “nonsense”?

In Scotland, only 24% of people say they have no sense of also being British. 65% of people in Scotland say they are “proud” of being British too. 74% of people in Scotland feel “closely attached” to Britain as a whole. Only 7% feel any hostility towards the union flag.

In the face of such overwhelming appreciation of being both Scottish and British, why do you present your viewpoint as if it were accepted wisdom?

87

kimba,

10/12/2007 19:40:06

96,LEE. The only reason England is the way it is,has nothing to do with the union, it is because we in England have let this government ride ruff shod all over us,we need to be on a level playing field i.e an English parliament,then and only then will this bickering between England and Scotland stop!

88

Enigma,

10/12/2007 19:50:38

90

The question I have yet to hear answered is why so many Scots entertain the notion that it is the English standing in their way? Most people couldn`t care less, others , like the present writer, well........

89

kimba,

10/12/2007 19:55:50

103. Think you'll find your wrong! most people in England have a point of view on this,for or against it doesn't matter but we do care!

90

Enigma,

10/12/2007 19:56:31

98

Scottish independence may be nothing to do with the English. But it beholds everyone to grant the English the same constitutional rights as the Scots currently enjoy, a referendum for a start. Then all you posters who are convinced the English are blocking your independence might have some real grist to chew on, rather than received opinion, myth and assumption.

91

Enigma,

10/12/2007 20:00:26

103

I don`t believe you.

92

Enigma,

10/12/2007 20:00:48

104

I don`t believe you.

93

Enigma,

10/12/2007 20:02:12

97

That Saul, is because no one has asked us the question.

94

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 10/12/2007 20:22:46

The chief political correspondent of a rival Scottish newspaper recently reiterated a telling comment he made a few years ago about the future of the indigenous Tories: "In its present state, this political party is no longer relevant to Scottish politics"

According to an SNP commissioned YouGov opinion poll, the indigenous Tory Party is now bumping along at 12 percent in the Holyrood constituency vote, an incredible 28 percentage points behind the Nationalists!

In 1997, the political base of the indigenous Tory Party was decimated overnight and it has never recovered! Since then the mass of the Scots Electorate has still continued to treat the indigenous Tories like low caste political Dalits, and refuse to vote for them at Westminster General Elections.
The Scots have long political memories and are very suspicious of the long term aims and objectives of what is essentially an English political party?

David Cameron's 'Day Return' visit to Edinburgh to give a two minute speech suppporting the Union
was simply a staged event to support the leader of the indigenous Tories because many members of her party are unhappy about her support for the Labour/Lib-Dem Constitutional Commission to consider fiscal automomy, and further devolved powers for Holyrood.

I have no doubt that IF, the indigenous Tory Party could turn the clock back tomorrow it would not hesitate to abolish the Scotland Act?

However, any future attempt to disrupt what is now the constitutional status quo can only have one inevitable outcome!

95

Saul Tyre,

Germany 10/12/2007 20:24:32

# 100 Kimba,

Are you saying that a hell of a lot of other countries wish they were part of the British state? If so, please name some.

96

Enigma,

10/12/2007 20:30:51

109

If the Tories really are `an English political party`, I wish they would start behaving like one.

97

Saul Tyre,

Germany 10/12/2007 20:31:31

#108 Enigma,

Lorren asked "Why do you want Scotland to stay with England?" Scotland will stay with England after both nations have gained independence - as friendly neighbours with no border posts and such like. But why do you want Scotland to remain part of the British state? What's in it for you?

98

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 20:32:37

#109 Mr. Todd

I fail to understand why you think that improving devolution and addressing concerns in England will heighten separatist sentiment. Please could you explain how you think that might work?

99

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 20:37:40

#109 Mr. Todd

I'm wondering why you chose to focus on Holyrood. Opinion polls for the next general election paint a very different picture.

19 Aug 2007: YouGov for the Sunday Times

Lab: 40%
SNP: 31%
Con: 14%
LD: 11%
Other: 4%

1 Nov 2007: YouGov for the SNP

Lab: 42%
SNP: 27%
Con: 18%
LD: 11%
Other: 3%

7 Dec 2007: YouGov for the SNP

Lab: 32%
SNP: 32%
Con: 19%
LD: 11%
Other: 4%

Summary:

Lab: major hit in last few weeks (CDs, Donorgate etc)
SNP: small net gain
Con: substantial gain
LD: support is flat.

100

Enigma,

10/12/2007 20:38:16

112

I don`t, and can`t understand why you keep claiming otherwise.

101

Jambo Number 1,

10/12/2007 21:20:26

#76

"just how is the UK holding Scotland back"

In my mind the accepted theory is:

Region Net government spending 2004/5 (£bn) Discretionary spending per head 2006/7 (£) Money received relative to need (100 = perfect match)

London -25.1 #5406# 171
Scotland 3.7 #5317# 114
Northern Ireland 3.8 #5553# 99
South East -24.1 #3776# 98
North West 2.4 #4582# 92
East of England -13.3 #3537# 88
North East #4 4700# 85
Wales 5.4 #4791# 85
Yorkshire and Humberside 1.3 #4182# 84
West Midlands -2.2 #4096# 83
South West -4.8 #3760# 81
East Midlands -3.5 #3768# 79
England n/a #4222# 99


So - thus Scotland appear a subsidy junky..

But these figures don't include the Oil...

102

AM2,

Glasgow 10/12/2007 22:32:03

#116 Jambo

Erm, why should government spending figures include oil?!

Your figures don't portray anyone as a "subsidy junkie". Subsidies arise when expenditure exceeds receipts. You've only provided half a picture.

103

Bad Yin,

On Fire 11/12/2007 04:21:56

117. AM2, Glasgow,

Subsidies arise when one country appropriates the resources of another. You are a real sophisticate pall.

104

Hunky Dorey,

Glasgow 11/12/2007 21:07:43

#17......Well said, I have been to many parts of the world and as you say, the island of Britain is normally just referred to as England.