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Scotland will not be first among equals



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Published Date: 17 April 2008
A HUGE gulf emerged yesterday between the aspirations of Westminster and Holyrood for the role of joint ministerial committees (JMCs) as Alex Salmond met with ministers to discuss the body.
The First Minister and Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy have begun to work out the ground rules of the committee involving the UK, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish governments.

Earlier Mr Salmond's spokesman had boldly proclaimed that it would be t
he means to deal with rows between the parliaments such as control of Scotland's seas, the £120 million of prison money not passed on to Scotland or the fate of the Lockerbie bomber Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi.

But even before the two sat down a senior Westminster source had dismissed the JMC and said it would not be a partnership of equals. "This is not a relationship of equals," he said. "John Swinney (the finance minister] is dealing with the Treasury of the United Kingdom.

"The JMC is part of the devolution settlement – it does not exist to undermine it. What it will expose is the narrowness of the claims and pomposity of the posturing of Executive ministers."

A source told The Scotsman that Mr Murphy had been embarrassed by the comments and had provided assurances the JMC's would provide a proper forum for disagreement.

However, the Scottish Government was unable to say how disputes would be resolved, who would arbitrate and how the UK government, which holds the purse strings, could be over-ruled by one or even all three of the devolved administrations.

A Scottish Government spokesman said that details would emerge after Mr Murphy had met with Northern Ireland's First Minister, Ian Paisley. The first JMC meeting is expected some time in the summer.

After their meeting yesterday, Mr Salmond and Mr Murphy insisted it had been useful and constructive.

And Mr Murphy denied he was worried that Mr Salmond would use the joint ministerial committee system as an opportunity to grandstand.

"I think the committee is a legitimate way for all First Ministers and appropriate ministers to get together to deal with issues of common concern.

"There will be issues which we can sit around the table and talk about."

He also denied the new body would be restricted by not being a "relationship of equals".

"It's a relationship where we don't start talking about equals and unequal, but a relationship in which people come together and talk about differences on different issues," he said.

Rows so far between Edinburgh and Westminster have involved spending on the London Olympics, and whether Scotland should continue to get council tax benefit if the tax is replaced by local income tax.

Mr Murphy said: "There is a mechanism that deals with finance – a joint meeting of the finance ministers from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the UK government."

A joint ministerial committee, chaired by the Prime Minister and bringing together ministers from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, was set up in 1999 but has not met since 2002, except for a sub-committee on European matters.

Reviving the ministerial committee system was one of the early goals of Mr Salmond, and Prime Minister Gordon Brown asked Mr Murphy to take up the issue earlier this year.

Mr Murphy met Rhodri Morgan, First Minister of Wales, earlier this week, and will shortly meet senior Northern Ireland ministers.

Mr Salmond said: "I have long advocated the re-invigoration of the JMC and I was delighted to welcome Paul Murphy to Edinburgh today to discuss the detailed arrangements around getting the vital JMC process up and running again by this summer. I made clear that I want to do all I can to ensure the success of the JMC meetings in supporting structured relationships between the UK government and the devolved administrations."

Alexander blasts SNP's £2.7bn of 'broken promises'

WENDY Alexander yesterday attacked SNP "broken promises" and cuts ahead of the party's spring conference this weekend.

The Scottish Labour leader claimed the first year of an SNP Scottish Government had resulted in £2.7 billion of ditched and under-funded promises and cuts.

The comments from the embattled Labour leader, who has just emerged from a tough first year dominated by investigations into her leadership campaign donations, were dismissed as a "moanifesto" by the SNP.

However, Ms Alexander produced details of £686 million of ditched election promises, including reducing P1 to P3 class sizes to 18 and paying off student debt; £933 million of funding promises including expanding nursery provision and drug rehabilitation, had been cut; and the £1.114 billion efficiency savings announced by the Scottish Government yesterday were, she said, cuts.

She also sneered at the SNP's biggest achievement, the council tax freeze, which she said was worth 71p a week to the average household, "less than a naan bread".

The only thing she could find to praise the SNP was the attempts by the justice secretary, Kenny MacAskill, to tackle binge drinking.

The minister for parliamentary business, Bruce Crawford, said: "Labour lost their first election in Scotland for 50 years because of their negativity, total lack of ideas and silly attacks on the SNP – one year on and they have clearly learned nothing."



The full article contains 872 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

16/04/2008 22:38:41
Dear David Maddox,

You report...

"a senior Westminster source had dismissed the JMC and said it would not be a partnership of equals. "This is not a relationship of equals," he said. "John Swinney (the finance minister] is dealing with the Treasury of the United Kingdom.

Please can you say who this source is?

"No" you say.

I didn't think you would.

For the "source" to have a shred of credibility, they should also have the courage of their convictions and not hide anonymously as a "source" especially not a "senior source", or a "senior Westminster source".

Otherwise their words are worth what you paid for them. Nothing.

If you have to report unattributed anonymous political gossip, please can you use the more accurate phrase....

"unattributed anonymous political gossip"

Thanks.
2

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 17/04/2008 00:07:52
DAVID MADDOX, THE GOSSIP COLUMNIST.

However, the upshot is that simply by their arrogance, these loose cannon 'senior sources' are building a bigger army of SNP supporters by the day.

I reckon it's Cairns. He just can't help himself.
3

Wardog,

Buckie 17/04/2008 00:15:49


Who is this "..Senior Westminster source"
4

Angus Ogg,

17/04/2008 00:16:06
#2

Hi Andrew,

I think that you have hit the nail on the head.

This and the fact that Labour have a hugely difficult job effectively combating the SNP just now.

I think perhaps the best that the Labour Strategists can do is go consult Sun Tzu. For whatever they seem to do it doesn't dent the SNP.

Must be very frustrating for them ?
5

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 17/04/2008 00:19:29
#1 Angus Ogg,16/04/2008 22:38:41 How come you can post at that time and we all have to waite until after 12am?
You mad thing..!!!

Now.."But even before the two sat down a senior Westminster source had dismissed the JMC and said it would not be a partnership of equals. "This is not a relationship of equals," he said. "John Swinney (the finance minister] is dealing with the Treasury of the United Kingdom."

"A source told The Scotsman that Mr Murphy had been embarrassed by the comments and had provided assurances the JMC's would provide a proper forum for disagreement"

Labour can not even agree on something that they themselves are part of. The best solution is to hold a referendum on Independence and for once we will get shot of all this internal bickering
6

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/04/2008 00:26:46
After reading the Hootsman, I have reached the conclusion that sources can be grouped by the following ....

Labour source-- Simon Pia, Press Office at John Smith House

Holyrood Labour source -- Andy Kerr, Jackie Baillie

Senior Holyrood Labour source-- Red Wendy Alexander, George Foulkes

Westminster Labour source -- David Cairns, Douglas Alexander

Senior Westminster Labour Source -Des Browne, Gordon Brown

unknown Labour source -- oor boy Alf


7

Fifi la Bonbon,

17/04/2008 00:29:53
I wrote this a few days ago but I can see it being just as relevant here!

Thank you for joining the Cybernats. Your commitment to a brave new Scotia free of alien influences is appreciated by Alex, and indeed by Sir Sean and Mister Souter.

Now this is how it works.

Your task is to scour the websites of those Scottish newspapers that permit comments, and fill them up with - well, whatever you like, really.

You will probably get an email from us suggesting the line to take, but it is really important for everyone not to take the same line. Nonetheless there will generally be one story that we all hack into. Usuallly one that expresses any criticism of Alex or even more, Mister Souter.

"Another non story ..." First of all, we need to undermine the reporting. So attack the reporter. Suggest that he or she is unprincipled, incompetent, drunk, corrupt, and in the pay of some English conspiracy. Feel free to make reference to MI5, the CIA and Mossad. You can extend that to the owners if you like.

"Do people still buy this rag?" Suggest that the newspaper is rapidly runnng out of customers because of its wicked and perverse editorial policy, probably dictated in London. Declare that you grew up as a child reading the paper, but it has gone downhill so fast that you will never buy it again and even your dear auld rheumy-eyed faither has stopped buying it. You do not need to say that you have never bought a single copy since the internet made that un-necessary.

Attack the personalities of the oppposition. Remember, personal attacks are entirely acceptable and indeed desirable. The leader of the opposition is always to be referred to as "Bendy Wendy". A full lexicon of abusive terms will be circulated shortly.

But if anyone else uses the expression "Fishheid McMoonface" to describe Alex, we must complain bitterly. And it goes without saying that any even mildly critical reference to Mister Souter must be attacked without quarter.

8

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 00:32:34
4 I prefer Chun Tzu. In the human sense.
9

subrosa,

17/04/2008 00:36:31
# 7

If you must practice your typing could you make the content relevant to the article.
10

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/04/2008 00:39:32
7 Iffy ooops I mean fifi

Nice to see AM2 back on the boards. Are you feeling better lad .. er. lass... since the sex change.

Did it bother you going to Denmark? After all, I know how afraid you are of wee independent countries.
11

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 00:40:05
Take away all Westmincers toys for four hundred years and see how they like it.

The oppressed becomes the oppressor?

They really are shoiting themselves, where is the revenue going? Where are our colonial thefts going? Where are our own backsides?

Independence is the road to Gross National Happiness G.N.P.


not looking forward to the hangover mind.........
12

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 17/04/2008 00:40:13
#9 Subrosa

lol, if your like the rest of us well no one will even bother reading his/her post. I just look at the name then weesh woosh past the drivel
13

Fifi la Bonbon,

17/04/2008 00:49:29
I'm not AM2, I'm fifi la bonbon, and I've been here for quite some time - google my name to see the fruits of my wisdom - especially the day I innocently asked what a cyber-nat was and learned a lesson.
14

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 00:49:31
"Fishheid McMoonface"

Captain Beefheart- "Trout mask replica"

One of the most inspirational albums of popular music, for musicians only......



15

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 00:51:17
Bendy Wendy the rubber puppet.......

Potential kink sales there....?
16

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 17/04/2008 00:53:02
7 Fifi La Fluff

1. Very naive.
Most newspapers have an editorial policy that follows a political party or persuasion

2. Un-original
A repeat

3. Isolated.
Not many unionist posters 'cos they're embarrassed by their current leadership

4. Two-faced
You start off with a collective demeaning term and you accuse others of name-calling

5. Stereotyping wrongly.
Many posters don't entirely agree with LIT and have said so, but still applaud the Scottish Government on it's performance so far

6. Irrelevant.
Another unionist who has joined the thread just to portray his anti-SNP views and make no comment about the article

7. Negativity
See 6 above - Usual form of attack

I COULD GO ON, BUT YOU GET THE POINT.


17

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/04/2008 00:53:39
13

Aye, lass, you seemed to show up just around the time that AM2 goes away for a while... interesting turn of events is it not?
18

Fifi la Bonbon,

17/04/2008 00:55:46
#1,2,3,4,5,6,8,especially 9,10,11,12,14,15,16,17 - too close to home, I think! How did you come to join the cyber-nat club?
19

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 17/04/2008 00:59:20
FIFI

Care to comment on the article?
20

Alan Reid,

NZ 17/04/2008 00:59:40
Scotland will not be first among equals....says it all really, so no news there.
21

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 17/04/2008 01:00:59
18

After all years of Labour rule, joining the Nats seemed the only logical move left to any thinking person.

Anyone can join the cyber-nat movement.. all that is requires is a commitment to Scotland and an IQ larger than your waistline..

Unfortunately most onionists can't commit to the first and don't meet the second.
22

Fifi la Bonbon,

17/04/2008 01:00:59
# 17 - I'm afraid I don't have his dedication, energy and capacity for banging his head against a brick wall. Since the cyber-nats' tactic is to occupy space and not actually engage in debate I prefer just to mock from the sidelines. I do think there's a lot of trutb in my post #7, though and I hope that people enjoy it.
23

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 17/04/2008 01:03:36
#22 Fifi la Bonbon

Thanks for Spamming us again, im away to my bed baw bag!!
24

subrosa,

17/04/2008 01:05:33
# 12 Spook

Thanks for the advice and I'll do that in future. I actually got to line 2 before I got bored.
25

Richardinho,

17/04/2008 01:10:53
It has been suggested that a big reason for the popularity of the SNP government, and the recent increase in support for independence, is the fact that Westminster constantly seeks to attack and undermine Scotland and Scottish interests, whilst the SNP shows itself to defend them.

This is yet another case of that;


"The JMC is part of the devolution settlement – it does not exist to undermine it. What it will expose is the narrowness of the claims and pomposity of the posturing of Executive ministers."

You really couldn't make it up,unless you were an SNP scriptwriter, and even then you'd probably dismiss it as 'fanciful'- The Westminster govt coming out and stating quite clearly that their sole purpose in creating this body is not to solve disputes, but to undermine the Scottish government.

priceless!
26

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 01:12:47
21 onionists,

Is that the Will Self onionist cult worship ?
27

Richardinho,

17/04/2008 01:13:04
'She also sneered at the SNP's biggest achievement, the council tax freeze, which she said was worth 71p a week to the average household, "less than a naan bread".'

Not bad for a tax freeze though, eh Wendy, that it actually CUTS taxes? And better than the 100% increase in taxes your party has foisted on many hard working families and single people.
28

Senga Jean,

17/04/2008 01:13:10
I remember now "Fifi la Bonbon" was the name of the foul smelling skunk in "Tom and Jerry" cartoons and I claim first cybernet prize. Fred Quimby never left the planet.
29

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 17/04/2008 01:13:24
FIFI LA BONBON YOU ARE A DISGRACE

You have occupied space on the thread without actually engaging in relevant debate. Something you accused everyone else of doing @ 01:00:59.
30

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 17/04/2008 01:16:54
12 I find the same weesh whoosh method is good for onion is best, highland mighty, Alfred Neuman, AM2, Geoff SA, Kimba and all others of a blind approach to realism or truth or indeed intrgrity.
31

Castaway,

17/04/2008 01:17:00
The Scotsman: A senior Westminster source said it would not be a partnership of equals. "This is not a relationship of equals," etc
The Herald : .......and even a comment that: "This is not a relationship of equals."
Our Kingdom: Senior Westminster source” who briefed the Daily Telegraph ahead of the meeting:This is not a relationship of equals etc
The Telegraph: But a senior Westminster source warned last night: "This is not a relationship of equals etc
32

Richardinho,

17/04/2008 01:20:44
'And Mr Murphy denied he was worried that Mr Salmond would use the joint ministerial committee system as an opportunity to grandstand.'

Here's the issue as I see it;

love him or hate him, vote for him or not, Alex Salmond is still OUR First Minister. As such, we in Scotland expect him to be treated with respect when he goes abroad. He is representing Scotland, hence any insult to him is an insult to all of us.

The labour party really do themselves no favours with this attitude, and certainly not when the SNP government is more than ready to stand up for itself.

Will they ever learn?
33

Jwil,

17/04/2008 01:29:55
Wendy said:

"The Scottish Labour leader claimed the first year of an SNP Scottish Government had resulted in £2.7 billion of ditched and under-funded promises and cuts."


Is she suggesting that Alex Salmond has pocketed the money? If she has identified it it must exist, or perhaps it was not received from the treasury.
34

The Spook in Leith,

Leith 17/04/2008 01:31:58
Boy spooks up late tonight...

#24 subrosa No probs.!!

#30 Ard Righ lol yeh it does work but hey (Onion is best)"union is Best" is no Unionist and that is a 100% cast iron guarantee. He states the obvious flaws in the Unionists arguments and is very affective at doing. it. Now im really of to bed this time..Yawn..need sleep

35

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 17/04/2008 01:55:55
Scotland will not be first among equals
----------------------------------------

And who may I ask are Scotland's equals, and based on what ?
In a contest with England, Scotland would stand not shoulder to shoulder but shoulder to ankle.

So who are Scotland's equals.
who else is in the Ankle Brigade ?

Happy dreamers Day dudes.

GC

36

,

17/04/2008 02:05:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
37

Samoyed,

Costa del Menie 17/04/2008 02:12:37
Fifi, pardon me asking and please, please don't take this personal, but could you explain to me why, of all possible names, have you chosen to use a well known prostitute synonimous in France?
38

Conan the Librarian™,

17/04/2008 02:23:52
36
Miss H
Apparently it is now your turn to be fakied by this sad, if not mentally disturbed, Unionist onanist.
The style is somewhat the same from when he mildly annoyed Ayrshire Scot™ and Methelions.
35
Are you basing the equality on numbers Galcan?
If that is the case your homeland stands about knee high to your beloved China.
1,321,851,888 China
301,139,947 Usa

Happy hotdog day dude.
39

,

17/04/2008 03:03:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

An Beal Bacht,

17/04/2008 04:26:40
Fifi la Bonbon = Ciderman = Dain Bramage.

View him here!

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=162963418
41

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/04/2008 04:45:34
"This is not a relationship of equals,"

The meetings will be held in Whitehall with King Broon sitting on a throne on an elevated dias with Mr. Salmond, Mr. Paisley and Mr. Morgan seated on milking stools.
42

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 17/04/2008 04:49:47
#35 GC

You Americans can't even match the Chinese Executing Prisoners.

The Inhuman League table.
1. China
2. Iran
3. Saudi Arabia
4. Pakistan
5. USA

Boy what nice company you Americans keep.

Happy Lethal Injection Day Dude
43

MacAlba: The Coming Independence (c2007).,

17/04/2008 05:56:07
Oh AM2, where are you? Come out from behind the hedges!
44

brownlie,

17/04/2008 06:43:10
7 Fifi etc

Great posting, Simon!!!

30 Ard Righ

Union is best will be delighted to be classed with Highland Mighty etc etc.

45

Mikey,

17/04/2008 06:52:21
The Labour party and it's supporters have really hit a new low. The fact that some Scots want to see Scotland subsumed doesn't surprise me however.

Fifty years ago, the Labout party under Gaitskill and then Wilosn at least had a reason to trumper their policies. They, as they said often, were fighting for the working man. Whether they won the fight or not is irrelevant. They had that platform and fought on it to no little success, I might add.

Today, Labour is in a mess. Leaderless, rudderless and with no specific platform, they and their supporters rubbish everything and everyone that tries to make this country a better place to live.

Labour is now the party of sleaze and corruption, something I would never have thought possible twenty years ago. They and their supporters see Holyrood not as a national parliament, but as a first dive into the trough, a sort of training session before they can really rip people off in London.

The National Party see thier mission statement as the freedom of Scotland. Labour and their supporters see this as a barrier in front of the trough and will do anything to keep the status quo.

And there's the rub. One party and it's supporters want a free Scotland while the other major party want a subservient North Britain. As a Scot, I know what party I'll be giving my vote to and it won't be the one that supports North Britain!
46

McGinty,

17/04/2008 06:59:46
"This is not a relationship of equals," he said. "John Swinney (the finance minister] is dealing with the Treasury of the United Kingdom.

Would they have said such things to Ian Paisley, or Martin MacGuiness or Gerry Adams? But then again it's maybe just the rantings of some sad hack.
47

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 17/04/2008 07:16:28
So much for the union (small u) being a "merger of equals"....EQUALS MY @ss!
48

malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 07:35:21
#47

The only part of the Union not represented is England. it is not ameeting of equals it is a meeting of departments of the UK Government with their bosses the majority of whom are Scottish.
49

Conan,

Honduras 17/04/2008 08:00:53
Its totally unimportant what the self-vested corrupt 'experts' say. The reality is that an Independent Scotland would work wonders on the PEOPLE of Scotland and in my opinion it would only be a matter of time before all of Europe looked to Scotland as a shining example of how great great can be when the shackles (of English domination) are removed. Gangforrit!
50

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 08:01:53
#48 Malkster

Exactly. Not one mention of the poor old English. No wonder they're p**sed off. The nationalist parties are going to get what they want by default.
51

McX,

17/04/2008 08:09:55
'WENDY Alexander yesterday attacked SNP "broken promises" and cuts ahead of the party's spring conference this weekend.'


Err didn't they just have a spring conference in Aviemore...or did I imagine that?



'She also sneered at the SNP's biggest achievement, the council tax freeze, which she said was worth 71p a week to the average household, "less than a naan bread".'

Wow how offensive is that on so many levels? She's offending those who welcome an average of £36.92 off their yearly council tax, the Scottish government which she will never lead and the manufacturers, distributors and consumers of Naan bread.

Och well I suspect Simon Pia chose Naan bread as the WENDY is known to be able to consume an entire Naan bread sideways.
52

Linda,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 08:29:39
Scotsman is a day behind Daily Telegraph on this story which says something about Scotsman's ability to keep with the news these days.

Wendy Alexander should know that much of SNPs manifesto
was predicated on Scotland receiving the same level of block grant as when Labour was the beneficiary.

That it has been cut at a time North Sea Oil is pouring record funds into the UK Treasury highlights the need for financial and political independence.

53

Stepford Nat,

17/04/2008 08:31:48
Fifi

It's outrageous that you call our esteemed FM Fishheid McMoonface, and sully the reputation of one of our major donors.

Oh, so maybe you're making a joke, but where is your respect for these fine individuals, who can do no wrong. Indeed FM has been described ON THESE VERY PAGES as the greatest living scot who ever drew breadth, so you must be a unionist and therefore incapable of being correct. Shame on you.

www.snp.org We put the rant in tolerant
54

tomias,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 08:44:36
Demockcrasy!
55

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 09:04:03
Strange that whatever happened to the Union of equals??
Is this the official confirmation that England in fact IS in charge of the union then??
56

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 09:06:23
51

Maybe somebody should have reminded her that It would be worth more if Labour hadnt taken away the 10p rate.
57

Stepford Nat,

17/04/2008 09:07:00
55 Cybernat

Yes - England is in charge, with the wannabee cockneys G Brown and A Darling at the helm.

www.snp.org - don't you fee oppressed?
58

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 17/04/2008 09:08:55
As this claim comes from an unamed source we should ignore it as either lies or rumour. Someone is being a spirtle.

Truth is the Union is in a mess and only a federal solution will preserve it.

The Scottish National Front, er, Party, has nothing worthwhile to offer that a well reconstructed Union can't.
59

Alan B,

17/04/2008 09:15:34
I really amazed in this country in this day and age we could have a government acting such a vindictive manor. Labour really are the lowest of the low. What i find so disheartening is not the fact that brown has completely lost the plot but his own colleague don't turn round and tell him this is a democracy and to start acting in a grown up manner.

He really does seem to want to punish scotland for not voting labour.

Look at the council tax rebate. Labour creates the scottish parliament, grants it power over local government finance but when an opposition party tries to use that power, does not argue the merits or otherwise of the alternative, but tries to withhold scotland's share of the money.

Then Barnett formula means scotland get money depending on spending on england, so brown spends extra in england and then tries to withhold scotland share.
60

Miss H,

17/04/2008 09:32:21
'This is not a relationship of equals'.

It's going to be interesting to see how Labour in Scotland defend this because you can bet that SNP MSPs and MPs will use that quote from now until 2011.

How do you justify not being equal? It's going to be a challenge to say the least!

61

,

17/04/2008 09:34:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
62

Alan B,

17/04/2008 09:35:02
#58 Rulesbutnotrulers

"The Scottish National Front, er, Party, has nothing worthwhile to offer that a well reconstructed Union can't."

Pathetic and immature jibe about the National Front.

Can u try to actually put an argument together to justify why a reconstructed Union would work.

As u admit the union as is, is not working and promote a federal solution. Problem is we waited 17 yr of the tories (thatcherism) running scotland down and denying us a parliament with a centralise uk. Now we have the mess we have. How much longer do we have to wait for a federal solution. The fact is it is not on the table from the big 2 parties that will actually get into power in uk election.

As such the choice is the mess we have not or independence. The unionist parties only have discussed this review when they lost power, not when the actually had the confidence of the people.

Right of the bat, i could name a list of things independence would give that a federal solution would not.
1)fiscal autonomy (eu law means that that would not happen, it is not allowed for differing corporation taxes within member states).
2)freedom to choose the most appropriate currency for scotland; i would support the euro. this will not happen unless england decide to go for it.
3)scottish membership of the eu, so that it can put scottish interest first.
4)a defence policy that does not include nuclear weapons if the people of scotland do not want them. (add in wars etc)

A confederal solution may work ie a sovereign scotland a member of the uk, but even then u have to work out for what purpose.

Even if u go for a very decentralise form of federalisation (remember what we have is a form already), it would mean shared currency, defence and foreign policy and eu membership. U really need to justify why these would be a good thing.
63

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 09:43:25
Sounds to me like Westminster have already under-mined the JMC with their pompous utterings.
64

interstellarmince,

outer-space 17/04/2008 09:43:31
And what of the Labour Party, that other wing of the One Party State? They supported both GATT and the Maastrict Agreement, as did the Liberal Democrats. Here we see modified Hegelianism again. Two ‘opposite’ forces, socialism and capitalism, were brought into opposition by the Elite in the early years of this century in Britain and they have fused into one force, which now differs only in words, not deeds. There are certainly scores of unanswered questions relating to leaders and high ranking members of the Labour Party through this century.

Doctor Kitty Little is a long time researcher into the corruption and infiltration within the British Intelligence agencies. Her scientific career has included research for the Ministry of Aircraft Production during the Second World War followed by nine years at the Atomic Energy Research Establishment at Harwell. In her submission to the 1995 Nolan Committee on Standards in Public Life, she tells the story of an attempt to recruit her to the Communist Party at Oxford University in 1940. Oxford University, you will recall, was a bastion of the Milner Circle and the Round Table, particularly All Souls, New Chapel, and Balliol.

The communists, she said, had gone “underground” by joining the university Labour Party and she attended a meeting of a Labour Party “study group” in a room at University College. The main speaker at the meeting, who clearly believed he was among “friends”, began to reveal the plot to “destabilise the United Kingdom and Commonwealth, ready for a Marxist takeover”. She later realized that this was part of the plan to introduce the global centralized control called the New World Order. The plot was outlined by the speaker at that Oxford meeting to destroy United Kingdom defenses, engineer a Marxist takeover of Rhodesia and South Africa, and to use what became known as the European Community as a smokescreen to hide the changeover to a centralized, Marxist, rule of Europe.

The plan was also to
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interstellarmince,

outer-space 17/04/2008 09:44:09
The plan was also to destroy British manufacturing industry. He went on to describe how members of the political section of this subversive organisation were going to infiltrate the British parliament and civil service, some entering each of the political parties. Many would go into the right wing of the Labour Party, others to the left wing of the Conservatives. Eventually there would be a fusion into a new “Centre” party.

He said that the British distrusted extremists and so posing as “moderates” occupying the centre ground would allow them to dismiss their opponents as “Right wing extremists”. This subversive organization did not have a name, he said, because that would make it harder for people to prove it existed. The speaker said that he had been chosen to be the head of the political section of this organization and he expected himself one day to become the prime minister of the United Kingdom. All this was said in 1940 and that man did indeed become prime minister.

His name was Harold Wilson.

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,

17/04/2008 09:44:21
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 09:47:14
Wow, how did this paragraph get past the sub-editor?

"The minister for parliamentary business, Bruce Crawford, said: "Labour lost their first election in Scotland for 50 years because of their negativity, total lack of ideas and silly attacks on the SNP - one year on and they have clearly learned nothing."
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 09:48:18
Does Wendy not realise how stupid she sounds?
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 09:51:53
#7 d i c k h e a d
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Arfur,

17/04/2008 09:53:05
"This is not a relationship of equals,"

This is why support for independance is going up by the day.

As for that spluttering idiot bendy wendy. Slating the freeze??????? Her Labour government increased it by 100%. Stupid bint.
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interstellarmince,

outer-space 17/04/2008 09:53:28
Wilson was the British prime minister throughout the period between 1964 and 1976, except for the four years between 1970-74 when the Conservative Party leader, Edward Heath, was in office. Harold Wilson and Ted Heath were both Bilderbergers and both close associates of Lord Victor Rothschild. Wilson took over the Labour Party leadership with the death of Bilderberger, Hugh Gaitskell, in 1963.

Significantly, Gaitskell was not in favour of a federal Europe. His death was very convenient because Wilson became leader at an opportune time. Conservative Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan (Comm 300, RIIA), was driven from office by the Profumo spy scandal in the same year that Gaitskell died, opening the way for the Bilderberger Sir Alec Douglas Hume (Lord Home) to take over the Premiership. Hume would later be a chairman of the Bilderberg Group and also served on the Committee of 300. The following year Hume faced - and was defeated by - Harold Wilson, in the 1964 election.

The political upheavals in Britain mirrored those in the United States where Lyndon Johnson became president in 1963 after the Kennedy assassination in which, in my view, Lord Victor Rothschild was involved. Dr Little says that when she made her story public, the Daily Express journalist and writer of intelligence ‘exposes’, Chapman Pincher, showed a copy of her allegations to Harold Wilson. He was issuing libel writs like confetti at the time, but his only reaction to Dr Little was to say she had mistaken him for a Tom Wilson.

She knew she had done nothing of the kind, but she checked the entire university records and there was not even one “T” Wilson enrolled there in this century! She knew Wilson as an Economics Fellow at Oxford because it was he who researched and compiled most of the Beveridge Report which created the welfare state and the social security system after the war. Beveridge, she says, was little more than a figurehead who put his name to it. On the surface, the report wa
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interstellarmince,

outer-space 17/04/2008 09:54:28
On the surface, the report was admirable in many ways, but from the perspective of the 1990s it can perhaps be seen to have wider implications.

It created dependency and control while destroying opportunities for self-reliance and independence outside the Elite-controlled system. Now that dependency has been created, the welfare state is being dismantled and what is left is being handed over to ‘privatisation’ - the elite bankers in other words. This is leaving people at the mercy of some very unpleasant people and organizations. Should the underclass react violently to this, the Elite have another opportunity to introduce harsher laws under problem-reaction-solution.

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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 09:57:59
#30 Agreed, except for Alfred Neuman. He is always worth having a pop at. He of the low-self-esteem brigade.

It's so much fun watching him apologise for merely existing
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:06:56
Wendy, your opinion of Scotland is so low. My opinion of you is even lower (if that is at all possible).
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:10:12
#51 Don't be so cruel to Wendy. It's not her fault that she has a gigantic, rubbery mooth......
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FS,

Stirling 17/04/2008 10:16:36
Westminster would be foolish to continue to treat Holyrood like some sort of town council as it seems to have in the past. They're not dealing with their lackies anymore and the new Scots government can provide Westminster with real problems should WM try to prevent it from governing effectively.

As for Wendy Alexander, she should get some policies instead of bleating about "broken promises". She's brought nothing to the political scene since last May except illegal donations and annoying soundbites.
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malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 10:19:14
What is the issue with this story. the devolved assemblies/parliaments are subordiante to westminster end of. The only people who should be complaining are the English as they do not have anyone looking out for them specifically.
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:26:28
#58 Rules

How would a federal system save the union?
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connaughtboy,

stonehaven 17/04/2008 10:34:00
#59 Alan

It's unfair to blame Gordon Brown for his behaviour. He is ill and cannot help himself. He is a sociopath and nothing we say or do will change his behaviour. He is fundamentally unsuited to public office and is unable to use power in an appropriate way. I am deadly serious and am not simply having a cheap shot at him.

Here are the symptoms:

- Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
- Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
- Authoritarian
- Secretive
- Paranoid
- Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
- Conventional appearance
- Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
- Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
- Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
- Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
- Incapable of real human attachment to another
- Unable to feel remorse or guilt
- Extreme narcissism and grandiose
- May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
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unbiased,

Nairn 17/04/2008 10:38:38
Interstellarmince - why the history lesson a great many of us on this thread lived though it - have you just had your first political lecture
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Shireman,

Kilspindie 17/04/2008 10:44:42
Maybe I'm daft, but I understood that the reason student fees are still not scrapped was because Labour, Liberal and Tory all voted against it. In fact that will be the main reason our minority government fails to get a lot of legislation through the parliament.
So for Bendy to quote this as failure seems a bit hypocritical really, or am I daft?
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Jackie Priest,

17/04/2008 10:46:39
So much for democracy. This is the stuff of the nineteenth century. If ever we needed further proof of how Scotland is treated not as a nation but as a region, then this is it. And to treat us as a region is depriving us of the liberties associated with nationhood as we see it in all of the countries of the free world. Scotland is not a part of the free world and Scots need to understand that this is not acceptable for the people of any nation.


#58 Ignoring your moronic insult about Scotland's most inclusive party, federalism is being bandied about by a a couple of desperate unionist on these boards for the simple reason that they're desperate and are looking for a solution that they hope other people might buy into.

Federalism is a non-starter for quite a few reasons. ONe is, simply, why bother with federalism when full-blown independence would actually be easier, less complicated and a whole lot smoother than wrangling out some federal hoo ha.

Also, federal systems only really work when you're talking about a group of regions or states of more or less equal stature who recognise a collective overall nationhood between themselves (like the US or Germany). We don't have collective nationhood to bind us together. We have distinct cultures and identities and recognise ourselves and each other for our distinction not as regions but as individual nations.
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Buckpool Loon,

Cheshire 17/04/2008 10:49:17
Interstellarmince: Your comments may have a grain of truth in them.

It's well known the Bilderbergh group have a habit of inviting potential political leaders as guest speakers at their meetings. John Smith, Blair and Brown all had invites as presumably has Cameron. It's also well known there are groups similar to the Bilderburghers laced throughout the world of the self elected movers and shakers. What is more diffecult to guage or analyse is the influence they have on those who accept their invitatation and how that influence if any is manifested in the policies they adopt.

Personally, I think any connection between a politician and any of these secret societies should be regarded as suspicion enough to ban them from public office.
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Alan B,

17/04/2008 10:50:23
#77 malkster

"What is the issue with this story. the devolved assemblies/parliaments are subordiante to westminster end of."

The idea of devolution is to split power between central parliaments and regional ones eg germany with it landers. There is a big problem when the central parliament tries to subvert the democratic wishes of the devolved parliament. It is not a case that the central parliament can at will override the wishes of the devolved parliament is areas where these powers have been devolved.

The problem here is we have a prime minister in a central parliament vindictively using his powers to punish the devolved parliament for voting for an alternative party and vision for scotland.

How would u realisticly say this should be resolved. Look at the 2 recent issues.

1)the scottish parliament has devolved power over local government taxation. the central government is trying to stop the devolved parliament from implementing a devolved matter.
a) We have the treasury declaring lit illegal, when it is the remit of the preciding officer in scotland to decide if it is within the remit of the scottish parliament (ie wether the lit has to be locally set). The treasury should not be interfering with a matter of law in an area not in its remit.
b)The central parliament is trying to withhold scotlands share of the money (council tax rebate) if the devolved parliament uses it power to change the local government tax (something that is devolved).

2)the funding arrangements for the devolved parliament means that scotland gets a share of money spent in england. the central government is trying to withhold money due to the devolved parliament.


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malkster,

Scotland 17/04/2008 10:53:58
#84

i am not agreeing with westminster but simply pointing out that they are right. It is not a meeting of equals.
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BrianHill,

Edinburgh 17/04/2008 10:54:37
SCOTLAND WILL NOT BE FIRST AMONG EQUALS.

Let's face it Scotland isn't even an equal as it stands right now.

And therein lies the crux of this matter does it not? If we are content for Scotland to remain subservient, ever grateful to play the role of 'lapdog' in a bigger production, then we support the status quo.

However, if we would like Scotland join the 'equals' like Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Iceland....the list is endless, then we vote for Independence.
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Alan B,

17/04/2008 10:56:00
#79 connaughtboy

I think u are correct in ur analysis of Brown. It is sad but also scarey that his colleagues allow him to continue. The pressure of wanting power so much has taken its toll and i think he has gone the way of thatcher in the end.
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European Scot,

17/04/2008 11:01:35
77 Malkster

" What is the issue with this story. the devolved assemblies/parliaments are 'subordiante' to westminster end of.

It would seem that you are quite happy to accept Scotland's parliament being subordinate to Westminster ?
I think you'll find that ever increasing numbers of people are no longer prepared to put up with that kind of arrangement.
They don't like the idea of their country being run from the Capital city of another country.
Quite a few people used to to feel the same way about Moscow.
State control, State broadcaster, one sided media, etc.
Different type of Union, different countries involved, but same type of controls.
No thank you !
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,

17/04/2008 11:04:56
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90

Edward,

17/04/2008 11:25:18
Where's :
AM2
Highland Mghty
Royster
Media1
for the sake of my amusement I would love to hear their take on this
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,

17/04/2008 11:33:21
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Edward,

17/04/2008 11:41:36
Scary picture of door to door campaigning from the Telegraph
http://tinyurl.com/5no5bs

(appropriate url by the way)
The comments are very funny
such as 'We think we've found your lost luggage'