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Sir Tom calls for a quick vote on independence



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Published Date: 31 March 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
ALEX SALMOND has welcomed the intervention by Sir Tom Hunter, Scotland's richest man, who called yesterday for "common sense" and a speedy referendum on independence to sort out the wrangles over Scotland's future.
Sir Tom said a vote was needed to allow the nation to move on – either as an independent country or as part of the UK. The billionaire tycoon and philanthropist said he wanted a "considered debate" followed by a referendum.

In an article in yester
day's Scotland on Sunday, Sir Tom accused Scotland's political parties of "posturing, positioning and pontificating" over attempts to reform the constitution. Despite this, his call for a referendum was welcomed by Mr Salmond.

The First Minister said: "Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80 per cent support – and those who don't.

"The SNP's first choice is to have a 'for or against' referendum on independence and that 2010 is the right sort of timescale."

Sir Tom's intervention in the debate comes after Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives announced they planned to support an independent commission to examine more powers for Holyrood, but without full independence.

But Sir Tom also attacked a suggestion by Mr Salmond that a referendum might be held under the Single Transferable Vote (STV) system. Under the system, voters list their preferences in order.

The tycoon said that such a system – which he describes as "Simon Cowell's X Factor voting system" – could not be used to determine Scotland's future.

The SNP wants a referendum in two years on whether Scotland should become independent, but, at present, lacks majority support to get this through Holyrood.

Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander said: "Sir Tom Hunter is certainly right that there's no way we should go down the route suggested by Alex Salmond.

"It's an absurd notion that he could gerrymander the vote and break up the UK without a straight majority."





The full article contains 335 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Angus Ogg,

30/03/2008 23:53:45
"The SNP's first choice is to have a 'for or against' referendum on independence and that 2010 is the right sort of timescale".

It's going to be very interesting, because by 2010, Westminister will have a new government and Gordon Brown will likely not be the UK Prime Minister.

How will David Cameron as the new UK Prime Minister react?

Cameron is only one generation away from Scottish heritage, with his father born at Blairmore House in Huntly, and grandparent lineage from Inverness and the Scottish Highlands.

1. Will this influence Cameron in how he leads his party in dealing with the SNP ?

2. Will the temptation to disembark Scotland from the UK with the ancillary benefit of floating away enough Labour voters to ensure England NEVER has another Labour government prove very tempting?

3. Will Cameron revert to Conservative dogma and keep the "Unionist" within the title of his party, or will dropping the "Unionist" from "Conservative & Unionist" be a new crusade for Cameron like Labour's dropping of the "Clause 4" was?

Interesting times.

Whatever else, Gordon Brown's custody of the tail end of the Labour party in government is likely to be relatively irrelevant.

That irrelevance was emphasised by the abyssmal performance of the part time Secretary of State for Scotland, Des Browne's performance on the Politics Show today.
2

Stepford Nat,

31/03/2008 00:28:56
Have the referendum this year. No other elections, so come on, let's just have it out!
3

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 31/03/2008 01:03:21
With David Cameron's father being a Huntly loon and Gordon Brown's mother being an Insch quine, I wonder if they ever crossed paths at the dances in Rannes Hall, Kennethmont. The mind boggles at what politico love child they might have produced.

On the subject of independence and a referendum, I would guess it will be one venomous war of words. I think independence in the 19th century sense does not exist any more in Europe (maybe Serbia excepted). All countries are interdependent and have few barrier and most share a single currency.

What Scotland will have in 10 years time will be virtually full autonomy with only some aspects of defence shared, and some practical cross border co-operation regarding national insurance and pensions.

As regards "Britishness" even an independent Scotland will retain some aspects of this, such as a shared monarch and royal family and Remembrance Sunday commemorations, with display of the Union flag, but it will be just another part of Scotland's historic tapestry. As regards families being split up this is a nonsense. Nothing prevents the great Scottish diaspora keeping in touch with their Scottish cousins, with e-mails and webcams. Only travel costs are a hindrance and that would be the case within a UK or after independence.
4

,

31/03/2008 01:44:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
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5

,

31/03/2008 01:55:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
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6

James Andrews,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 02:12:39
In voting for independence would we raise our national standards or lower them. In areas where we have some degree of independence I leave the case to the judgement of others. Is BBC Radio Scotland, BBC TV and STV something of which we can be proud in comparison to Radio 4, etc or will our future be more such as Tam Cowan and Gary?
Will our once proud justice system thrive in the future with a more powerful example of Kenny MacKaskill? Would we be able to watch Match of the Day with the present format or would we be restricted to thrilling teams like Hearts, Kilmarnock etc? Would there be a return to Scotland of talent or a great exodus? Would we invest in the Arts and have companies of which we could be proud or have future examples of artists singing out their protests at their impending redundancies?
I do not know but I would worry about a Glasgow/West monopoly on anything. It would be worse than one from London where enough Scots and other nationals have sufficient influence to make it at least palatable.
We should, on a vote for independence, ask such qustions? If we do, look at how we presently use the powers we have before then coming to a decision.
7

Scullion,

Canada 31/03/2008 02:40:01
Has there been any thought to a "sovereignity association" such as Quebec want with the rest of Canada. This would mean the sharing of currency and defence but full dipolomatic and internal autonomy. It might be a good starting point towards full independence while avoiding some of the more expensive necessities for the time being.
However, the battle over North Sea oil will be ferocious.
8

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 03:07:00
#6, James Andrews.

I would ask, if Scots can do the business furth of Scotland, why can they not do it in Scotland?

Perhaps it's because we are not an Independent nation, with the associated pride and incentive to do what is best for our people?

Why would you think that Scotland would not aspire to the same status as the US, Canada, NZ, Australia, France, Spain, Germany....................?
9

,

31/03/2008 03:24:42
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
10

Castaway,

31/03/2008 04:49:37
#1 Angus Ogg - I agree there is no rush to hold any Scottish referendum before the next UK GE for some of the reasons you mentioned plus the SNP could have more UK MP's.
11

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA....captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 06:08:22
1
Angus Ogg,
30/03/2008
-------------------------------

What U have written is hypothetical, and therefore worthless, clap trap oratory. U have no clue about the future and neither does anyone else.

Happy Haggis day

GC
12

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

31/03/2008 06:14:37
11 GalacticCannibal,Murrieta, CA....captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008

Plonker
13

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

31/03/2008 06:16:27
11 GalacticCannibal,Murrieta, CA....stolen from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008

Erudite crud
14

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 31/03/2008 07:08:17
Oh dear. Judging from some above posts the debate has already degenerated.

Bring on the referendum as long as 1. the SNP pays for its own propaganda and doesn't make us, the public, pay,and 2. the SNP promises to shut up and go out of business for at least ten years when it loses. (Otherwise it will keep demanding referenda until we 'get it right', that is, until we vote the way it wants. Only then will it shut up).

A nice simple in or out decision please, but preceded by a good debate with only the truth being told.

Once we lose the albatross of the SNP we can then begin a serious discussion with intelligent people about improvments to what we now have.
15

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 07:55:18
Mr Salmond really is a funny guy, he said:
"Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80 per cent support – and those who don't."
OK, hands up all those people who don't believe the people should decide....what's that? one in five Scots don't want to decide their future? Is that right Alex? Or are you lying through your teeth. Again...
16

Marcus Fenix,

Paisley 31/03/2008 08:24:43
My well balanced and typically thought provoking comment on the subject is:

"Bring it on"
17

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:55:58
#17
Illegally? Brownshirts? Explain yourself please.....
18

Linda,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:04:08
# 6 James Andrews' comments are typical of the Scottish cringe and our dependency culture which independence will get rid off in a stroke.
19

eric,

Lothian 31/03/2008 09:11:59
Most of my family on both sides of border who were labour voters all their lives.Actually voted SNP and glad they did,The other half in England will vote Tory.
They also want Scotland to leave the union.
20

danielrober,

31/03/2008 09:13:15
The quick decision to close the ship yards, had no long lasting effect on Scotland.

The quick decision to close the coal mines, had no long lasting effect on Scotland.

The quick decision to bring in the poll tax, had no long lasting effect on Scotland.

The quick decision to close the mobile telephone factories, had no long lasting effect on Scotland.

The quick decision to close the outsource the telephone call centers, had no long lasting effect on Scotland.


So sure, the quick decision on an independence vote will have no long lasting negative consequences for Scotland.

Oh sorry the SNP are different and Alex.S has not spent most of his adult life as an MP at Westminster.
21

Alastair the First,

31/03/2008 09:24:00
I laughed particulalry loudly at Wendy the Crook's comment about gerrymandering. How would he do that, Wendy? Nicking postal votes as practised by Labour?
22

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:36:04
#23
Empty rhetorical blather, lies and personal attacks. Another typical nationalist post...
23

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:39:31
#22
Did you laugh Alastair, did you? My, aren't you the wry old cynic, eh?
24

James Andrews,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:43:49
To Scullion I ask where is the proof of this, as if the talent is here, why is it not showing currently? To Linda I say that I am asking the questions and I am certainly not decided at this moment one way or another but just frustrated at the ham andd egg mess of the way we have made of existing opportunities. We could not even organise the last lot of elections properly.
Lets ask question then and go in to any referendum with our eyes open rather than wide shut.
25

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:50:56
#26
Oh Bobby give it a rest. I'm sure there will be some easily-impressed spotty youth attracted to the infantile trot nonsense you spout, but not very many and not for very long....
26

Linda,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:10:50
On December 6th 2007, Parliament agreed to have the

Scottish Parliament Corporate Body

run a commission on the powers of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government.

Therefore the British Nationalist's Commission has not got the authority of the Scottish Parliament.

No address is given for sending submissions in so you the public, if asked, should send your thoughts to:-

Kenneth Calman,
Chair,
Parliament Review,
c/o the Presiding Officer
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
27

John S,

31/03/2008 10:16:23
#29 - TNS System Three poll carried out in late November and early December 2007
The questions asked were the ones the Scottish Government is proposing to put to the voters in referendum with the electorate having the choice of either I AGREE or I DO NOT AGREE or DON'T KNOW the actual result:-
I agree -40%
I do not agree -44%
Don't know-16%
TNS System Three poll from Aug 2007 when for the same questions the result was:-
I agree - 35%
I do not agree - 50%
Don't know - 15%
28

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 10:22:16
4. "To the disenchantment of AM2 & Co., approval for Scottish independence considerably exceeds the "23%" that is all-too-frequently aspersed by their like"

And Salmond himself of course:

BBC Interview yesterday
ANDREW MARR: If things are going so well why do only a quarter of Scots say they actually want independence?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it's interesting that the poll last Sunday, the one you're quoting, showed a number of things, actually. It showed that the SNP government was far in the lead, in a double digit lead. But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter.

(Actually Alex, the lead is only 8% and falling, not the "doublie-digits" you say. But you did get one thing right!)
29

Angus Ogg,

31/03/2008 10:23:46
#11 GC

You should know clap trap as your posts are almost universally full of it.

Go and have another spliff.
30

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:24:15
#30
Linda,
You seem a bit confused. The Commission was set up by the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT a democratic body elected by the SCOTTISH PEOPLE. Do you understand now? This has the backing of the democratically elected Scottish Parliament.
The SNP's conversation is a one-party campaign for independence backed by about a quarter of the Scottish people.
Hope this clears it up for you...
31

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:27:06
#33
Bobby,
Never mongered a war in my life, nor do I support fascists, something you obviously don't mind doing but hey..it's a democracy and if you want to hang out with racists and single-issue fascists that's your look out...
32

Arfur,

31/03/2008 10:28:20
'But Sir Tom also ATTACKED a suggestion by Mr Salmond that a referendum might be held under the Single Transferable Vote' - typical hootsman reporting here. He basically just said he would do it a different way.
33

donald,

glasgow 31/03/2008 10:32:13
Did I read that right? A Labourite talking aboot gerrymandering?
34

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:32:50
37. Instaed of trying to grandstand on the constitution, Labour should be explaining why they voted with the Tories last week against council house building in Scotland. And perhaps they could explain why they are cutting millionaire's inheritance tax while sacking disabled workers at Remploy factories, closing 4000 post offices and sacking 12,000 DWP workers.

35

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:41:16
Ayrshire,
Still toiling away with your smears I see...still anything to move focus away from the neo-Thatcherites of the SNP, eh?
36

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 31/03/2008 10:44:16
Q: When SNP loses this in/out referendum will it shut shop?

A: Unlikely whilst its piggy snouts are in the Westminster and Holyrood troughs (and its supporters remain happily on the dole).
37

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:46:37
41. Neo-thatcherite? Is was Brown who had tea with Thatcher and praised her. It was Labour who just voted with the Tories against council house building in Scotland last week.

It is Labour who are cutting millionaire's inheritance tax while sacking disabled workers at Remploy and closing 4000 post offices. It is Labour who are cutting capital gains tax while sacking 12,000 DWP workers and refusing to back date the police pay rise. It is Labour who are buying new Trident WMD while imposing tuition fees to price the poor out of higher education.

It is Labour who want detention without trial, ID cards, who incarcerate children of asylum seekers at Dungavel, and who invaded Iraq.

Lets hear a defence of these Tory policies?

Labour are indeed Thatcherite and right wing.
38

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 10:51:22
40. Low-cost house building is best left to the private sector so they carry they full cost and risk, not the taxpayer. Unless you want to go back to the days of ugly sprawling housing estates built by councils.

Isn't everyone's IHT being cut? Or is that a bad thing?

Remploy has announced plans to increase the number of disabled people for whom it finds mainstream jobs from five thousand to twenty thousand a year. It is also a heavily subsidised nationalised industry that was created at a time that disabled people had little chance of finding work. Also, nowadays, there is tough UK and EU legislation banning such discrimination.

Shutting the 400 rural post offices across the UK is a shame but it this age of electronic communications and strong competition from the private sector, why should this increasingly unnecessary organisation be propped up by the taxpayers?

Cutting staff at the bloated DWP is a bad thing? And it's okay for the SNP to cut the civil service back but not Westminster?

Wow! With calls for the return of the old sprawling council housing projects, massively increased subsidies to the post offices, increased subsidies to nationalised industries, complaints about cutbacks to a bloated civil service etc. the nats clearly want a huge public sector! And yet they also want to emulate Ireland and its far smaller public sector!
39

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:51:55
#43
And while Ayrshire huffs and puffs like a disruptive marionette the nationalist administration get on with the serious job of dismantling our local government and slashing our local services.
The tories did this in the 80s, here we go again...
40

,

31/03/2008 10:54:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
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41

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 11:03:15
He who pays the piper calls the tune. A referendum is a clever device thought up by parties who want to divert the attention away from the real issues - the cost of living and housing, health and welfare, education, inflation and unemployment (which now has started to rear its ugly head again). Personally I could not care less about a referendum as it is not a priority for the people of Scotland but my list of issues is.
42

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 11:11:52
Having given this more thought I have asked myself- Why does a top business man want a referendum (read "independence" for Scotland? ) Does this guy really care for his fellow Scot or is he just out for himself and his big business cronies who are bankrolling the SNP?
43

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:11:56
47 fakey, yawn
44

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:14:05
46. Grahamski, why do you not explain why Labour voted with the Tories against council house building in Scotland?
45

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 31/03/2008 11:29:24
THE problem is government. Let the problem be settled by a vote from the people of Scotland. I am weary of hearing about all the studies and polls and such, and doubly weary of hearing all the politicians on both sides of the issue natter on endlessly. Call for a vote, managed by a neutral and independent panel from another country if needs be, but get it done. Then we will all see that the posturing and posing to be just that. The majority of people know that business and life will go on as usual, one way or the other. Lets see, for a refreshing change, our government show some backbone and quit faffing about like a bunch of old ninnies, and get this decided - now.
46

European Scot,

31/03/2008 11:31:04
44 AM2

" That the Parliament, recognising mainstream public opinion in Scotland, supports the establishment of an independently chaired commission to review devolution in Scotland;

Who is heading this independently chaired commission. ?
Sir Kenneth Calman, who said, quote :-

" Like the majority of the Scottish people, I very much see myself as part of the UK, but a Scot within that,"

Independently chaired ?
Certainly not by independent opinion.
This man is a Unionist, like yourself.
47

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 31/03/2008 11:31:44
Thank goodness this government was not around when Herr Hitler threatened our shores, they probably - with the spineless Chamberlain, would have us all speaking German to this day...
48

John S,

31/03/2008 11:40:12
Tom Hunter don't you think it is to the SNP's advantage to wait until after the next UK GE before they propose a referendum on Scottish independence ?
49

danielrober,

31/03/2008 11:54:58
I would like to point out that i am not for or against independence. I'm against quick decisions.

These islands and all the communities in them have a near history over the past 40 years, of disasterous macro-economic decisions. The justification that if we make a quick decision we will save money, or just pull that rotten tooth, has be proven wrong again and again.

Sure this time it will be different, 98th time lucky.
50

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 11:55:50
Talk about Germans: Germany has excellent health service, good universities, good primary and secondary education, good pension entitlements, good transport system, good manufacturing industries..

The man from Kirkaldy and Cowdenbeath-Brown says that they have a large unemployment compared to Britain. But our unemployed din the South of the Border are pushed into categories like Disability claimants -about 3 million or more and Brown and Blair changed the way of counting unemployed so that it appears less.
51

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:25:50
Interesting article in the Times about how Gordon Brown and the New Labour Traitors had to have a steel fence encircling the complete carpark at the Traitors Aviemore Conflab. They compared it to last years SNP Conference at the same venue, where Alex Salmond sauntered in to the venue.

Doesnt that tell you what the Scottish People think of both men. Not the Numpties like AM2 etc. The real people of Scotland, who care about each other rather than Northern Ireland or London.

Another little titbit from the same article, that the Scotsman forgot to mention or censor if you like.

The reality is that the “People's Party” is doing its best impression of a swan. Despite apparent serenity on the surface, below the water line there is churning, panic and disarray.

Just how scared Labour are of Salmond and the SNP is revealed in a leaked account of a meeting between Brown and his closest aides on devolution. At the end of January, Brown met Des Browne, his Scottish secretary, Alistair Darling, his chancellor, and Jack Straw, the secretary of state for justice, who handles constitutional issues. An account of the meeting, seen by The Sunday Times, reveals that the prime minister believes that the advance of nationalists in the British Isles has become so great, he plans to mount a “Save the Union” campaign.

Far from being relaxed about the constitution and confident that independence will be rejected by Scottish voters, it suggests Brown and Alexander are afraid of the direction in which the country is travelling.

At the meeting, Brown said that it was important for all those who believed in the Union to become mobilised and to make their voices heard. He raised the issue of the abolition of student tuition fees north of the border for native students, while keeping them for English ones, and the Welsh Assembly voting not to fund Welsh patients using English hospitals, as examples of “emerging tensions”.

Emerging tensions indeed, he is shoiting himself. Jus
52

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:30:16
#58
A fascist writes......
53

tessterror,

31/03/2008 12:35:53
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhh
my brain is numb . im giving up reading the comments after articles or better still will unsubscribe to the Scotsman on line so i wont be tempted to take a peek at the postings
54

,

31/03/2008 12:38:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
55

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:43:45


Far from being relaxed about the constitution and confident that independence will be rejected by Scottish voters, it suggests Brown and Alexander are afraid of the direction in which the country is travelling.

At the meeting, Brown said that it was important for all those who believed in the Union to become mobilised and to make their voices heard. He raised the issue of the abolition of student tuition fees north of the border for native students, while keeping them for English ones, and the Welsh Assembly voting not to fund Welsh patients using English hospitals, as examples of “emerging tensions”.

Emerging tensions indeed, he is shoiting himself. Just remember Brown, Darling, Des Browne and the rest of the traitorous dogs who sold Scotland out for so many years. There is alway a counter action to any force. The Scottish People listen to the Meglomaniac rantings of a form of man who was never elected to his present position by the People of the Three Countries of these Isles. Because of his failure to put himself to the Electorate as a potential Prime Minister, he obviously is commited to the Manifesto that he and Blair both campaigned on for the Votes of the People.

Where is our referendum on Europe Chairman Brown,

Fair Comment Danielrober, but as you say there has been Forty years of rubbish management of the Economy.

What I would suggest to you is that after living through and witnessing first hand the incompetance of consecutive Westminster Governments, we now have to do what all those successful losing countries from the second World War and the many conflict since then, and go our own way with a United Country, and start to do things our own way. After all Scotlands People started the whole free trade system, and are still held in high regard by so many other Nations. Christ even our criminals are clever, but choose to use their intelligence in a selfish way.

It cannot be any worse than just voting for the status quo. We cant keep wai
56

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:45:55



Fair Comment Danielrober, but as you say there has been Forty years of rubbish management of the Economy.

What I would suggest to you is that after living through and witnessing first hand the incompetance of consecutive Westminster Governments, we now have to do what all those successful losing countries from the second World War and the many conflict since then, and go our own way with a United Country, and start to do things our own way. After all Scotlands People started the whole free trade system, and are still held in high regard by so many other Nations. Christ even our criminals are clever, but choose to use their intelligence in a selfish way.

It cannot be any worse than just voting for the status quo. We cant keep waiting every election to find out who the English Majority have elected to stuff things up even more. British Labour or British Tory, theres no difference in them. Why not a Scottish Social Democratic Party, or whatever other Party the Scottish People Choose. At least like the SNP, they will put Scotland ahead of all others no matter how much coin they have in their pocket. Give it a Go Daniel, nothing to loose.
57

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 13:04:51
Grahamski, As an obvious fan of anything Labour, one would have to assume you have some financial stake in Labour and Brown. Falkirk, now theres a fine example of Labours success in Scotland. Chronic problems with drink and drugs, brought about by years of being second class citizens within the UK. Perhaps if Scotland wasnt tied to London we could have built up a nice country, where instead of big business taking the biggest piece of the pie, they took their fair share. Or instead of fighting illegal wars that have killed a million men women and kids, we could have spent more on our own kind, and started giving physical benefits back to third world nations. We might have even not had the highest rates of poverty in the developed world. Christ come to think about it, we could have had a society where there were opportunities for our young to persue sporting activity that could take them to the dizzy heights. Kids in Jobs, School, Tafe, Uni. We might never have bred a generation of lost youth who know nothing except how to kill each other in the streets. 170 Glasgow gangs, maybe an Independant Scotland would have been the only gang they wanted to be part of.

Ask Wendy what besides a New Tesco has she done for her Electorate. Could it be rows and rows of shops which closed, because many of the Scottish Folk havent worked for 35 years since the Car Builders pissed off under Labour. What about the new generations, will they get to see Wendy's Armani Suits when she visits at the next election she needs to win.

Aye right Grahamski, yer a waste of space.
58

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 13:07:30
#46, Grahamski.

You are fundamentaly at odds with Stephen Purcell(NuLab), Leader GCC, "The deal was TOO GOOD to turn down.) and, Pat Watters(NuLab), Leader Cosla, "The Concordat is returning LOCAL ACCOUNTABILITY."

Perhaps you will, now, wish to retract your infantile, childish accusations concerning SNP local government policies.

While the LA Budget settlement is at +/-5% above inflation, the SBG was only 1.8%, one can only assume that any cuts in LA sevices, or jobs, is due to PREVIOUS LA ADMINISTRATIONS' mis/maladministration or, the extremely tight WESTMINSTER (below real inflation) SBG settlement.

Again, perhaps you would like to withdraw your apoplogist propaganda, but I doubt it as your previous posts are devoid of integrity.
59

kimba,

31/03/2008 13:12:52
63. With the greatest respect,you have everything to loose if it goes wrong,apart from there only being a 38% support rate for independence.
60

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 13:13:26
#57 Jack - there is much to admire about Germany but the country is going through a bit of a crisis at the moment Real wages have been falling for years and this has led to trouble in the workplace. Last month 12,000 transport workers in Berlin went on strike following a wave of strikes across the country. There has been a marked shift to the left in union militancy and this is causing hysteria amomong the press who are talking about the sceptre of communism rising again in Germany although the last time this was forecast, fascism won the day. It is now likely that with the effects of job loss and wage cuts through the credit crunch there couldalso be a backlash across the rest of Europe including Scotland. The SNP will not be immune from this as we live in a global economy . The idea that if Scotland was independent it could "go it alone" and be almost immune from the global economy is totally niave and very dangerous for us all.
61

kimba,

31/03/2008 13:21:27
I think Wales is the nation that is losing out in the Union. I don't hear of the Welsh asking for independence.
62

The Master,

31/03/2008 13:22:17
Don’t you just love the way the Scotsman has to inform us that Sir Tom is Scotland’s richest man. What further qualification do you need for your opinion to be respected? I picked up my father’s S on S and he warned me that there was very little in it: the paper’s not worth the cover price and it’s just sad that they had to resort to filling out a couple of pages on the back of a billionaire spouting his mouth off about an issue that’s not exactly the top concern of your typical couple struggling to make ends meet for their family in an ex local authority property. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that it’s downright offensive to trumpet the views of this individual above those of everyone else solely because he has more money than he knows what to do with. S on S is nothing short of a parochial, narrow minded rag and is consistently bettered in the breadth and insight of its coverage of Scottish affairs by the Sunday Times. Not to bother, I notice Salmond’s impressed with his latest friendly billionaire. This one’s even richer than Souter and Trump, so he’s definitely onto a winner here!
63

,

31/03/2008 13:30:41
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

Shaken,

31/03/2008 13:47:19
AM2 like Nu labour can quote figures to back up his case but that 'reality' thing just can't be explained away.

Can I ask AM2 do you live in Scotland and if so from what town do you see this enormous success that Labour has brought?

I see a lot of failure in Glasgow is the reason I ask. People speak of the unemployed beng the true supporters of the SNP. I would bounce that back and say why do we have poor housing, unemployment, education and health system? Why in Glasgow do we have a lower life expectancy than devloping Eu countries? Do you think it is acceptable for a supposed recipient of the English govts generosity?
65

Potato Eater,

31/03/2008 13:57:10
#70 Master/Trolla: sorry, but I’ll think you’ll find that the Donald could buy and sell Hunter, although I suspect that’ll make little difference to you, as you’re only interested in the potential for scandal. Well, there’s no Hunter Scandal to match Trumpgate or the Souter bus deregulation u-turn, so you’re not in luck this time, old son!
66

danielrober,

31/03/2008 14:02:28
# 63 A Better Way,Edinburgh

It's not just the central government that have had a recent history of bad macro-making decision. Councils, town, parish, major companies (that no longer exsist), univesities etc have all been guilty of big bad choices. This is the reason why we have such strict planning rules it is to stop these powerful peple 'messing up' again.

By the way i don't think we live in 'a steady as you go time'. The four new bodies in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and London have changed the way we live for the better. For the first time since before WW II we can ask questions and 'require' answers from local leaders. There has been far to much blame it all on $%^& who ever.

If Westminster is not working as it should at the moment, it because the Labour party (John Prescot) botched up regional assemblies. This has created a two tier structure in Parliment. However it is not the business of Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and London to fix this problem it is for other areas to address thier local problems.

I'm just against shooting from the hip, it rarely works and there is too much to risk.
67

The Master,

31/03/2008 14:04:11
#73 Potato Eater: what are you on, man? Alex’s got three friendly billionaires in tow and there’s only been scandal from his involvement with two of them! Methinks he doth protest too much, as my learned associate kimba might put it if she happened to google an extract from Hamlet and work out what it meant!
68

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 31/03/2008 14:27:07
As a banished Scot do I also get a say in Jimbos referendum?
Probably not with Whiny already crying gerrymander.
But at least I'd like to be allowed to contribute to the Think Again ad campaign.
Please pass the bonnet.
69

,

31/03/2008 14:39:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
70

Jwil,

31/03/2008 14:43:51
It seems that the Scotsman's discretion to remove posts only applies to removing them, but not to keeping them even if they are a fair representation of the facts.
71

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:06:55
Nationalists beware. Hunter is no fan of independence. This is yet another unionist plot.
72

Miss H,

31/03/2008 15:11:45
35 Grahamski

But this debate is about letting the peopled decide. The SNP wants people to have a vote on proposals - Labour, the Lib Dems and Tories don't.

The 'Commission' set up by the Scottish Parliament has already been replaced with a review under the control of Westminster by the way.

73

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:30:46
86

The Spook, I note with great interest that you do not praise the Council Tax freeze. Do you, like many others, fear the resultant poll tax?
74

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:39:53
89

The Spook, if you praise the Council Tax freeze, you must praise the Council Tax's proposed alternative - or must you?
75

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:45:18
89

Come on The Spook - let us have a response. Are you in favour of the SNP's proposed poll tax?
76

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 15:47:24
Even if Scottish independence was a major issue , which it is not , whatever some may think , surely it cannot be for the people of Scotland alone to decide . Cessation from the Union , by any member , would clearly involve extremely complex matters in which the other members of a union of long and free association have a vested interest and who are equally entitled to have their say . Never mind Scotland , England , Ireland and Wales , the union created one country , Great Britain . The creation , one country , which historically already existed , was formally recognised and freely entered into , resulting in huge amounts of investment and shared interest over centuries . Therefore , by any objective reasoning , it cannot simply be within the remit of any one group to cecede and that the integrity and strategic interest of Country must remain paramount .
77

Marky o8,

France 31/03/2008 15:51:54
poster 93

I totally and utterly disagree with your comment.
78

Marky o8,

France 31/03/2008 15:52:39
poster 93

I totally and utterly disagree with your comment.
79

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:58:05
94

The Spook, thank you for your reply. From your earlier contributions, I detected a lack of enthusiasm. While I agree that I hold your contributions in high esteem, I am afraid that I cannot say the same about your spelling. Are standards slipping further in Salmond's Scotland?
80

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 16:04:10
MARKY 95 . WHY ?
81

W U Merchant,

Spellchecker 31/03/2008 16:14:13
99

The Spook, I am begone - happily.
82

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 31/03/2008 16:52:34
#12, #13
83

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 16:59:23
#12,#13

Hey Dude, If that's the best U can do , then tough on U.

Name calling is a very crude substitute for debate or argument.

GC
--------------------------------

#1 Angus Ogg
Dude,
I stand by what I scribed , Ur comment is 100% hypothetical dude.

'What U have written is hypothetical, and therefore worthless, clap trap oratory. U have no clue about the future, and neither does anyone else'

Happy Haggis day

GC
84

kimba,

31/03/2008 17:01:24
Guess Tom Hunter made his millions courtesy of the UK,and accepted his knighthood from a English queen,makes you wonder what he's up too!
85

Lovepan,

England 31/03/2008 17:10:47
I love you all. I beseech thee my Scotish brethren, do not hate each other or call names! Love is the answer! And maybe fewer speed cameras north of Carter Bar.
86

Knit your own Yohgurt,

31/03/2008 17:11:46
If they had a referendum the SNP would lose.

The SNP will never accept the Scottish people's democratic right to form Unions with its friends and neighbouring countries.
87

oddoneout,

31/03/2008 17:19:05
can we please stop the incorrect use of gerrymandering, labour was caught ballot stuffing, using postal votes. gerrymandering is something completely different
88

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta..CA .....a valley in the Sun 31/03/2008 17:20:49

Dudes ,
An independent Scotland will be nothing more than a pip squeak nation, in a global economy, where big is better and big is safer. Scotland will join the 3rd. world brigade with their begging bowls.

And is seems fanatics like Alex Salmond , do not grasp that fundamental premise. Rather he lives in a historical dream of past failures.

His strategy of constantly attacking the UK and Westminster , could easily backfire on the SNP.

Clearly the small majority of SNP fanatics, will ignore the consequences, no matter what the cost be,to the majority of the Scots people.

BEWARE Scots voters. BEWARE

The SNP is no panacea for for Ur perceived ills, and difficulties in Scotland in 2008.

BEWARE Scots voters..BEWARE

GC



The advocacy of the utmost political advancement of one’s nation or people, without regard to the consequences, in promoting hostility and competition, discrimination and vilification.
89

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:29:03
#111 Rather a pip squeak than complicit with the septic's and their wee adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan and GitMO.

Then again, we're expected to take lessons from someone who has Arnie as his muscular Governor.
90

Truely English,

31/03/2008 17:29:16
It still is not clear to me what CIVIC NATIONALISM means, though I have been looking for an easy to understand meaning for a number of days now.

Does it mean that where one is born or which language they speak or what their day to day life style is (which normally creates stability) does not matter.

What creates stability in Britain and keeps us as one nation is primarily the British language: English.
As yet I am unsure as to what Civic Nationalism means for the ordinary person in the street.

Can I have a clear meaning provided by someone who can write plain English please.



91

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:29:52
#111 for #110, hey maybe one day we'll get a proper editing software on this here site.
92

GalacticCannibal.,

GalacticCannibal,Murrieta..CA Obama for prez 31/03/2008 17:41:59
The great American melodrama of 2008 has already been a saga of improbable twists and shocking turns, each prediction defied. At its centre has been the man who describes his candidacy as "an unlikely journey" - and in South Carolina he sprang one more surprise. Barack Obama won a walloping victory that ensures he heads towards next week's Super Tuesday primary battles in 22 states as a genuine contender and with momentum on his side
93

GalacticCannibal.,

VOTE SNP NOW&Obama 31/03/2008 17:42:59
Obama did not just win in the first southern state to vote in this year's contest, he wiped out his opponents. With 55% of the vote, he more than doubled the share commanded by Hillary Clinton. If the polls were wrong in New Hampshire, where Obama seemed to be ahead only to lose narrowly to Clinton on the night, they were more wrong in South Carolina. Most showed the Illinois senator leading in a race that seemed to be tightening; pundits thought he'd be lucky to win by a double-digit margin. Instead this was a landslide: Clinton trounced by 28 points
94

GalacticCannibal.,

A fly in the Whitehouse 31/03/2008 17:44:09
112
Dude stay of the shrooms and speak USA like me man.
95

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:51:49
#115 DUDE if you're going to plagiarise Jonathon Freedland from The Guardian, can I suggest you alter the text a tad so that it appears as if you might actually have a voice of your own.

Otherwise a complete absence of hatstand batshittery raises suspicions, n'est pas. Fraud.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/28/barackobama.usa
96

Andrew Allan,

31/03/2008 17:54:52
I just like the fact stated by Alex Salmond yesterday that two thirds of those in Scotland would vote for Independence.
97

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 17:55:27
#112, Truely English.

A brief definition of Civic Nationalism.

Civic Nationalism is the right of a Nation to govern itself in accordance with the wishes of its people: the rule of the majority, with the consent of the minority.

Scotland is a Nation in its own right, and, is therefore entitled to the rights stated above.

Remember GB is the result of a TREATY between two Sovereign Nation States i.e a Contract and any contract can be en