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Sir Tom calls for a quick vote on independence

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Published Date: 31 March 2008
By HAMISH MACDONELL
ALEX SALMOND has welcomed the intervention by Sir Tom Hunter, Scotland's richest man, who called yesterday for "common sense" and a speedy referendum on independence to sort out the wrangles over Scotland's future.
Sir Tom said a vote was needed to allow the nation to move on – either as an independent country or as part of the UK. The billionaire tycoon and philanthropist said he wanted a "considered debate" followed by a referendum.

In an article in yester
day's Scotland on Sunday, Sir Tom accused Scotland's political parties of "posturing, positioning and pontificating" over attempts to reform the constitution. Despite this, his call for a referendum was welcomed by Mr Salmond.

The First Minister said: "Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80 per cent support – and those who don't.

"The SNP's first choice is to have a 'for or against' referendum on independence and that 2010 is the right sort of timescale."

Sir Tom's intervention in the debate comes after Labour, the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives announced they planned to support an independent commission to examine more powers for Holyrood, but without full independence.

But Sir Tom also attacked a suggestion by Mr Salmond that a referendum might be held under the Single Transferable Vote (STV) system. Under the system, voters list their preferences in order.

The tycoon said that such a system – which he describes as "Simon Cowell's X Factor voting system" – could not be used to determine Scotland's future.

The SNP wants a referendum in two years on whether Scotland should become independent, but, at present, lacks majority support to get this through Holyrood.

Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander said: "Sir Tom Hunter is certainly right that there's no way we should go down the route suggested by Alex Salmond.

"It's an absurd notion that he could gerrymander the vote and break up the UK without a straight majority."





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1

Angus Ogg,

30/03/2008 23:53:45
"The SNP's first choice is to have a 'for or against' referendum on independence and that 2010 is the right sort of timescale".

It's going to be very interesting, because by 2010, Westminister will have a new government and Gordon Brown will likely not be the UK Prime Minister.

How will David Cameron as the new UK Prime Minister react?

Cameron is only one generation away from Scottish heritage, with his father born at Blairmore House in Huntly, and grandparent lineage from Inverness and the Scottish Highlands.

1. Will this influence Cameron in how he leads his party in dealing with the SNP ?

2. Will the temptation to disembark Scotland from the UK with the ancillary benefit of floating away enough Labour voters to ensure England NEVER has another Labour government prove very tempting?

3. Will Cameron revert to Conservative dogma and keep the "Unionist" within the title of his party, or will dropping the "Unionist" from "Conservative & Unionist" be a new crusade for Cameron like Labour's dropping of the "Clause 4" was?

Interesting times.

Whatever else, Gordon Brown's custody of the tail end of the Labour party in government is likely to be relatively irrelevant.

That irrelevance was emphasised by the abyssmal performance of the part time Secretary of State for Scotland, Des Browne's performance on the Politics Show today.
2

Stepford Nat,

31/03/2008 00:28:56
Have the referendum this year. No other elections, so come on, let's just have it out!
3

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 31/03/2008 01:03:21
With David Cameron's father being a Huntly loon and Gordon Brown's mother being an Insch quine, I wonder if they ever crossed paths at the dances in Rannes Hall, Kennethmont. The mind boggles at what politico love child they might have produced.

On the subject of independence and a referendum, I would guess it will be one venomous war of words. I think independence in the 19th century sense does not exist any more in Europe (maybe Serbia excepted). All countries are interdependent and have few barrier and most share a single currency.

What Scotland will have in 10 years time will be virtually full autonomy with only some aspects of defence shared, and some practical cross border co-operation regarding national insurance and pensions.

As regards "Britishness" even an independent Scotland will retain some aspects of this, such as a shared monarch and royal family and Remembrance Sunday commemorations, with display of the Union flag, but it will be just another part of Scotland's historic tapestry. As regards families being split up this is a nonsense. Nothing prevents the great Scottish diaspora keeping in touch with their Scottish cousins, with e-mails and webcams. Only travel costs are a hindrance and that would be the case within a UK or after independence.
4

,

31/03/2008 01:44:45
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5

,

31/03/2008 01:55:35
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6

James Andrews,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 02:12:39
In voting for independence would we raise our national standards or lower them. In areas where we have some degree of independence I leave the case to the judgement of others. Is BBC Radio Scotland, BBC TV and STV something of which we can be proud in comparison to Radio 4, etc or will our future be more such as Tam Cowan and Gary?
Will our once proud justice system thrive in the future with a more powerful example of Kenny MacKaskill? Would we be able to watch Match of the Day with the present format or would we be restricted to thrilling teams like Hearts, Kilmarnock etc? Would there be a return to Scotland of talent or a great exodus? Would we invest in the Arts and have companies of which we could be proud or have future examples of artists singing out their protests at their impending redundancies?
I do not know but I would worry about a Glasgow/West monopoly on anything. It would be worse than one from London where enough Scots and other nationals have sufficient influence to make it at least palatable.
We should, on a vote for independence, ask such qustions? If we do, look at how we presently use the powers we have before then coming to a decision.
7

Scullion,

Canada 31/03/2008 02:40:01
Has there been any thought to a "sovereignity association" such as Quebec want with the rest of Canada. This would mean the sharing of currency and defence but full dipolomatic and internal autonomy. It might be a good starting point towards full independence while avoiding some of the more expensive necessities for the time being.
However, the battle over North Sea oil will be ferocious.
8

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 03:07:00
#6, James Andrews.

I would ask, if Scots can do the business furth of Scotland, why can they not do it in Scotland?

Perhaps it's because we are not an Independent nation, with the associated pride and incentive to do what is best for our people?

Why would you think that Scotland would not aspire to the same status as the US, Canada, NZ, Australia, France, Spain, Germany....................?
9

,

31/03/2008 03:24:42
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10

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA....captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 06:08:22
1
Angus Ogg,
30/03/2008
-------------------------------

What U have written is hypothetical, and therefore worthless, clap trap oratory. U have no clue about the future and neither does anyone else.

Happy Haggis day

GC
11

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

31/03/2008 06:14:37
11 GalacticCannibal,Murrieta, CA....captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008

Plonker
12

Rabbies Wee Bruthir,

31/03/2008 06:16:27
11 GalacticCannibal,Murrieta, CA....stolen from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008

Erudite crud
13

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 07:55:18
Mr Salmond really is a funny guy, he said:
"Opinion is coming down between those who believe in the right of the people to determine Scotland's future – a position carrying 80 per cent support – and those who don't."
OK, hands up all those people who don't believe the people should decide....what's that? one in five Scots don't want to decide their future? Is that right Alex? Or are you lying through your teeth. Again...
14

Marcus Fenix,

Paisley 31/03/2008 08:24:43
My well balanced and typically thought provoking comment on the subject is:

"Bring it on"
15

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 08:55:58
#17
Illegally? Brownshirts? Explain yourself please.....
16

Linda,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:04:08
# 6 James Andrews' comments are typical of the Scottish cringe and our dependency culture which independence will get rid off in a stroke.
17

eric,

Lothian 31/03/2008 09:11:59
Most of my family on both sides of border who were labour voters all their lives.Actually voted SNP and glad they did,The other half in England will vote Tory.
They also want Scotland to leave the union.
18

Alastair the First,

31/03/2008 09:24:00
I laughed particulalry loudly at Wendy the Crook's comment about gerrymandering. How would he do that, Wendy? Nicking postal votes as practised by Labour?
19

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:36:04
#23
Empty rhetorical blather, lies and personal attacks. Another typical nationalist post...
20

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:39:31
#22
Did you laugh Alastair, did you? My, aren't you the wry old cynic, eh?
21

James Andrews,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 09:43:49
To Scullion I ask where is the proof of this, as if the talent is here, why is it not showing currently? To Linda I say that I am asking the questions and I am certainly not decided at this moment one way or another but just frustrated at the ham andd egg mess of the way we have made of existing opportunities. We could not even organise the last lot of elections properly.
Lets ask question then and go in to any referendum with our eyes open rather than wide shut.
22

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 09:50:56
#26
Oh Bobby give it a rest. I'm sure there will be some easily-impressed spotty youth attracted to the infantile trot nonsense you spout, but not very many and not for very long....
23

Linda,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 10:10:50
On December 6th 2007, Parliament agreed to have the

Scottish Parliament Corporate Body

run a commission on the powers of the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government.

Therefore the British Nationalist's Commission has not got the authority of the Scottish Parliament.

No address is given for sending submissions in so you the public, if asked, should send your thoughts to:-

Kenneth Calman,
Chair,
Parliament Review,
c/o the Presiding Officer
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh
EH99 1SP
24

John S,

31/03/2008 10:16:23
#29 - TNS System Three poll carried out in late November and early December 2007
The questions asked were the ones the Scottish Government is proposing to put to the voters in referendum with the electorate having the choice of either I AGREE or I DO NOT AGREE or DON'T KNOW the actual result:-
I agree -40%
I do not agree -44%
Don't know-16%
TNS System Three poll from Aug 2007 when for the same questions the result was:-
I agree - 35%
I do not agree - 50%
Don't know - 15%
25

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 10:22:16
4. "To the disenchantment of AM2 & Co., approval for Scottish independence considerably exceeds the "23%" that is all-too-frequently aspersed by their like"

And Salmond himself of course:

BBC Interview yesterday
ANDREW MARR: If things are going so well why do only a quarter of Scots say they actually want independence?

ALEX SALMOND: Well it's interesting that the poll last Sunday, the one you're quoting, showed a number of things, actually. It showed that the SNP government was far in the lead, in a double digit lead. But on the question of independence the support for independence now is about a quarter.

(Actually Alex, the lead is only 8% and falling, not the "doublie-digits" you say. But you did get one thing right!)
26

Angus Ogg,

31/03/2008 10:23:46
#11 GC

You should know clap trap as your posts are almost universally full of it.

Go and have another spliff.
27

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:24:15
#30
Linda,
You seem a bit confused. The Commission was set up by the SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT a democratic body elected by the SCOTTISH PEOPLE. Do you understand now? This has the backing of the democratically elected Scottish Parliament.
The SNP's conversation is a one-party campaign for independence backed by about a quarter of the Scottish people.
Hope this clears it up for you...
28

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:27:06
#33
Bobby,
Never mongered a war in my life, nor do I support fascists, something you obviously don't mind doing but hey..it's a democracy and if you want to hang out with racists and single-issue fascists that's your look out...
29

Arfur,

31/03/2008 10:28:20
'But Sir Tom also ATTACKED a suggestion by Mr Salmond that a referendum might be held under the Single Transferable Vote' - typical hootsman reporting here. He basically just said he would do it a different way.
30

donald,

glasgow 31/03/2008 10:32:13
Did I read that right? A Labourite talking aboot gerrymandering?
31

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:32:50
37. Instaed of trying to grandstand on the constitution, Labour should be explaining why they voted with the Tories last week against council house building in Scotland. And perhaps they could explain why they are cutting millionaire's inheritance tax while sacking disabled workers at Remploy factories, closing 4000 post offices and sacking 12,000 DWP workers.

32

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:41:16
Ayrshire,
Still toiling away with your smears I see...still anything to move focus away from the neo-Thatcherites of the SNP, eh?
33

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 10:46:37
41. Neo-thatcherite? Is was Brown who had tea with Thatcher and praised her. It was Labour who just voted with the Tories against council house building in Scotland last week.

It is Labour who are cutting millionaire's inheritance tax while sacking disabled workers at Remploy and closing 4000 post offices. It is Labour who are cutting capital gains tax while sacking 12,000 DWP workers and refusing to back date the police pay rise. It is Labour who are buying new Trident WMD while imposing tuition fees to price the poor out of higher education.

It is Labour who want detention without trial, ID cards, who incarcerate children of asylum seekers at Dungavel, and who invaded Iraq.

Lets hear a defence of these Tory policies?

Labour are indeed Thatcherite and right wing.
34

Highland Mighty,

31/03/2008 10:51:22
40. Low-cost house building is best left to the private sector so they carry they full cost and risk, not the taxpayer. Unless you want to go back to the days of ugly sprawling housing estates built by councils.

Isn't everyone's IHT being cut? Or is that a bad thing?

Remploy has announced plans to increase the number of disabled people for whom it finds mainstream jobs from five thousand to twenty thousand a year. It is also a heavily subsidised nationalised industry that was created at a time that disabled people had little chance of finding work. Also, nowadays, there is tough UK and EU legislation banning such discrimination.

Shutting the 400 rural post offices across the UK is a shame but it this age of electronic communications and strong competition from the private sector, why should this increasingly unnecessary organisation be propped up by the taxpayers?

Cutting staff at the bloated DWP is a bad thing? And it's okay for the SNP to cut the civil service back but not Westminster?

Wow! With calls for the return of the old sprawling council housing projects, massively increased subsidies to the post offices, increased subsidies to nationalised industries, complaints about cutbacks to a bloated civil service etc. the nats clearly want a huge public sector! And yet they also want to emulate Ireland and its far smaller public sector!
35

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 10:51:55
#43
And while Ayrshire huffs and puffs like a disruptive marionette the nationalist administration get on with the serious job of dismantling our local government and slashing our local services.
The tories did this in the 80s, here we go again...
36

,

31/03/2008 10:54:33
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37

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 11:03:15
He who pays the piper calls the tune. A referendum is a clever device thought up by parties who want to divert the attention away from the real issues - the cost of living and housing, health and welfare, education, inflation and unemployment (which now has started to rear its ugly head again). Personally I could not care less about a referendum as it is not a priority for the people of Scotland but my list of issues is.
38

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 11:11:52
Having given this more thought I have asked myself- Why does a top business man want a referendum (read "independence" for Scotland? ) Does this guy really care for his fellow Scot or is he just out for himself and his big business cronies who are bankrolling the SNP?
39

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:11:56
47 fakey, yawn
40

 Ayrshire Scot™,

31/03/2008 11:14:05
46. Grahamski, why do you not explain why Labour voted with the Tories against council house building in Scotland?
41

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 31/03/2008 11:29:24
THE problem is government. Let the problem be settled by a vote from the people of Scotland. I am weary of hearing about all the studies and polls and such, and doubly weary of hearing all the politicians on both sides of the issue natter on endlessly. Call for a vote, managed by a neutral and independent panel from another country if needs be, but get it done. Then we will all see that the posturing and posing to be just that. The majority of people know that business and life will go on as usual, one way or the other. Lets see, for a refreshing change, our government show some backbone and quit faffing about like a bunch of old ninnies, and get this decided - now.
42

European Scot,

31/03/2008 11:31:04
44 AM2

" That the Parliament, recognising mainstream public opinion in Scotland, supports the establishment of an independently chaired commission to review devolution in Scotland;

Who is heading this independently chaired commission. ?
Sir Kenneth Calman, who said, quote :-

" Like the majority of the Scottish people, I very much see myself as part of the UK, but a Scot within that,"

Independently chaired ?
Certainly not by independent opinion.
This man is a Unionist, like yourself.
43

John M. Slusser II,

Nantwich 31/03/2008 11:31:44
Thank goodness this government was not around when Herr Hitler threatened our shores, they probably - with the spineless Chamberlain, would have us all speaking German to this day...
44

John S,

31/03/2008 11:40:12
Tom Hunter don't you think it is to the SNP's advantage to wait until after the next UK GE before they propose a referendum on Scottish independence ?
45

Jack and the Bean Stalk,

LONDON 31/03/2008 11:55:50
Talk about Germans: Germany has excellent health service, good universities, good primary and secondary education, good pension entitlements, good transport system, good manufacturing industries..

The man from Kirkaldy and Cowdenbeath-Brown says that they have a large unemployment compared to Britain. But our unemployed din the South of the Border are pushed into categories like Disability claimants -about 3 million or more and Brown and Blair changed the way of counting unemployed so that it appears less.
46

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:25:50
Interesting article in the Times about how Gordon Brown and the New Labour Traitors had to have a steel fence encircling the complete carpark at the Traitors Aviemore Conflab. They compared it to last years SNP Conference at the same venue, where Alex Salmond sauntered in to the venue.

Doesnt that tell you what the Scottish People think of both men. Not the Numpties like AM2 etc. The real people of Scotland, who care about each other rather than Northern Ireland or London.

Another little titbit from the same article, that the Scotsman forgot to mention or censor if you like.

The reality is that the “People's Party” is doing its best impression of a swan. Despite apparent serenity on the surface, below the water line there is churning, panic and disarray.

Just how scared Labour are of Salmond and the SNP is revealed in a leaked account of a meeting between Brown and his closest aides on devolution. At the end of January, Brown met Des Browne, his Scottish secretary, Alistair Darling, his chancellor, and Jack Straw, the secretary of state for justice, who handles constitutional issues. An account of the meeting, seen by The Sunday Times, reveals that the prime minister believes that the advance of nationalists in the British Isles has become so great, he plans to mount a “Save the Union” campaign.

Far from being relaxed about the constitution and confident that independence will be rejected by Scottish voters, it suggests Brown and Alexander are afraid of the direction in which the country is travelling.

At the meeting, Brown said that it was important for all those who believed in the Union to become mobilised and to make their voices heard. He raised the issue of the abolition of student tuition fees north of the border for native students, while keeping them for English ones, and the Welsh Assembly voting not to fund Welsh patients using English hospitals, as examples of “emerging tensions”.

Emerging tensions indeed, he is shoiting himself. Jus
47

Grahamski,

Falkirk 31/03/2008 12:30:16
#58
A fascist writes......
48

tessterror,

31/03/2008 12:35:53
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhh
my brain is numb . im giving up reading the comments after articles or better still will unsubscribe to the Scotsman on line so i wont be tempted to take a peek at the postings
49

,

31/03/2008 12:38:28
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50

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:43:45


Far from being relaxed about the constitution and confident that independence will be rejected by Scottish voters, it suggests Brown and Alexander are afraid of the direction in which the country is travelling.

At the meeting, Brown said that it was important for all those who believed in the Union to become mobilised and to make their voices heard. He raised the issue of the abolition of student tuition fees north of the border for native students, while keeping them for English ones, and the Welsh Assembly voting not to fund Welsh patients using English hospitals, as examples of “emerging tensions”.

Emerging tensions indeed, he is shoiting himself. Just remember Brown, Darling, Des Browne and the rest of the traitorous dogs who sold Scotland out for so many years. There is alway a counter action to any force. The Scottish People listen to the Meglomaniac rantings of a form of man who was never elected to his present position by the People of the Three Countries of these Isles. Because of his failure to put himself to the Electorate as a potential Prime Minister, he obviously is commited to the Manifesto that he and Blair both campaigned on for the Votes of the People.

Where is our referendum on Europe Chairman Brown,

Fair Comment Danielrober, but as you say there has been Forty years of rubbish management of the Economy.

What I would suggest to you is that after living through and witnessing first hand the incompetance of consecutive Westminster Governments, we now have to do what all those successful losing countries from the second World War and the many conflict since then, and go our own way with a United Country, and start to do things our own way. After all Scotlands People started the whole free trade system, and are still held in high regard by so many other Nations. Christ even our criminals are clever, but choose to use their intelligence in a selfish way.

It cannot be any worse than just voting for the status quo. We cant keep wai
51

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 12:45:55



Fair Comment Danielrober, but as you say there has been Forty years of rubbish management of the Economy.

What I would suggest to you is that after living through and witnessing first hand the incompetance of consecutive Westminster Governments, we now have to do what all those successful losing countries from the second World War and the many conflict since then, and go our own way with a United Country, and start to do things our own way. After all Scotlands People started the whole free trade system, and are still held in high regard by so many other Nations. Christ even our criminals are clever, but choose to use their intelligence in a selfish way.

It cannot be any worse than just voting for the status quo. We cant keep waiting every election to find out who the English Majority have elected to stuff things up even more. British Labour or British Tory, theres no difference in them. Why not a Scottish Social Democratic Party, or whatever other Party the Scottish People Choose. At least like the SNP, they will put Scotland ahead of all others no matter how much coin they have in their pocket. Give it a Go Daniel, nothing to loose.
52

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 13:04:51
Grahamski, As an obvious fan of anything Labour, one would have to assume you have some financial stake in Labour and Brown. Falkirk, now theres a fine example of Labours success in Scotland. Chronic problems with drink and drugs, brought about by years of being second class citizens within the UK. Perhaps if Scotland wasnt tied to London we could have built up a nice country, where instead of big business taking the biggest piece of the pie, they took their fair share. Or instead of fighting illegal wars that have killed a million men women and kids, we could have spent more on our own kind, and started giving physical benefits back to third world nations. We might have even not had the highest rates of poverty in the developed world. Christ come to think about it, we could have had a society where there were opportunities for our young to persue sporting activity that could take them to the dizzy heights. Kids in Jobs, School, Tafe, Uni. We might never have bred a generation of lost youth who know nothing except how to kill each other in the streets. 170 Glasgow gangs, maybe an Independant Scotland would have been the only gang they wanted to be part of.

Ask Wendy what besides a New Tesco has she done for her Electorate. Could it be rows and rows of shops which closed, because many of the Scottish Folk havent worked for 35 years since the Car Builders pissed off under Labour. What about the new generations, will they get to see Wendy's Armani Suits when she visits at the next election she needs to win.

Aye right Grahamski, yer a waste of space.
53

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 13:07:30
#46, Grahamski.

You are fundamentaly at odds with Stephen Purcell(NuLab), Leader GCC, "The deal was TOO GOOD to turn down.) and, Pat Watters(NuLab), Leader Cosla, "The Concordat is returning LOCAL ACCOUNTABILITY."

Perhaps you will, now, wish to retract your infantile, childish accusations concerning SNP local government policies.

While the LA Budget settlement is at +/-5% above inflation, the SBG was only 1.8%, one can only assume that any cuts in LA sevices, or jobs, is due to PREVIOUS LA ADMINISTRATIONS' mis/maladministration or, the extremely tight WESTMINSTER (below real inflation) SBG settlement.

Again, perhaps you would like to withdraw your apoplogist propaganda, but I doubt it as your previous posts are devoid of integrity.
54

kimba,

31/03/2008 13:12:52
63. With the greatest respect,you have everything to loose if it goes wrong,apart from there only being a 38% support rate for independence.
55

Sedov,

Scotland 31/03/2008 13:13:26
#57 Jack - there is much to admire about Germany but the country is going through a bit of a crisis at the moment Real wages have been falling for years and this has led to trouble in the workplace. Last month 12,000 transport workers in Berlin went on strike following a wave of strikes across the country. There has been a marked shift to the left in union militancy and this is causing hysteria amomong the press who are talking about the sceptre of communism rising again in Germany although the last time this was forecast, fascism won the day. It is now likely that with the effects of job loss and wage cuts through the credit crunch there couldalso be a backlash across the rest of Europe including Scotland. The SNP will not be immune from this as we live in a global economy . The idea that if Scotland was independent it could "go it alone" and be almost immune from the global economy is totally niave and very dangerous for us all.
56

kimba,

31/03/2008 13:21:27
I think Wales is the nation that is losing out in the Union. I don't hear of the Welsh asking for independence.
57

The Master,

31/03/2008 13:22:17
Don’t you just love the way the Scotsman has to inform us that Sir Tom is Scotland’s richest man. What further qualification do you need for your opinion to be respected? I picked up my father’s S on S and he warned me that there was very little in it: the paper’s not worth the cover price and it’s just sad that they had to resort to filling out a couple of pages on the back of a billionaire spouting his mouth off about an issue that’s not exactly the top concern of your typical couple struggling to make ends meet for their family in an ex local authority property. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that it’s downright offensive to trumpet the views of this individual above those of everyone else solely because he has more money than he knows what to do with. S on S is nothing short of a parochial, narrow minded rag and is consistently bettered in the breadth and insight of its coverage of Scottish affairs by the Sunday Times. Not to bother, I notice Salmond’s impressed with his latest friendly billionaire. This one’s even richer than Souter and Trump, so he’s definitely onto a winner here!
58

,

31/03/2008 13:30:41
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59

Shaken,

31/03/2008 13:47:19
AM2 like Nu labour can quote figures to back up his case but that 'reality' thing just can't be explained away.

Can I ask AM2 do you live in Scotland and if so from what town do you see this enormous success that Labour has brought?

I see a lot of failure in Glasgow is the reason I ask. People speak of the unemployed beng the true supporters of the SNP. I would bounce that back and say why do we have poor housing, unemployment, education and health system? Why in Glasgow do we have a lower life expectancy than devloping Eu countries? Do you think it is acceptable for a supposed recipient of the English govts generosity?
60

Potato Eater,

31/03/2008 13:57:10
#70 Master/Trolla: sorry, but I’ll think you’ll find that the Donald could buy and sell Hunter, although I suspect that’ll make little difference to you, as you’re only interested in the potential for scandal. Well, there’s no Hunter Scandal to match Trumpgate or the Souter bus deregulation u-turn, so you’re not in luck this time, old son!
61

The Master,

31/03/2008 14:04:11
#73 Potato Eater: what are you on, man? Alex’s got three friendly billionaires in tow and there’s only been scandal from his involvement with two of them! Methinks he doth protest too much, as my learned associate kimba might put it if she happened to google an extract from Hamlet and work out what it meant!
62

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 31/03/2008 14:27:07
As a banished Scot do I also get a say in Jimbos referendum?
Probably not with Whiny already crying gerrymander.
But at least I'd like to be allowed to contribute to the Think Again ad campaign.
Please pass the bonnet.
63

,

31/03/2008 14:39:21
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

,

31/03/2008 14:43:51
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
65

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:06:55
Nationalists beware. Hunter is no fan of independence. This is yet another unionist plot.
66

Miss H,

31/03/2008 15:11:45
35 Grahamski

But this debate is about letting the peopled decide. The SNP wants people to have a vote on proposals - Labour, the Lib Dems and Tories don't.

The 'Commission' set up by the Scottish Parliament has already been replaced with a review under the control of Westminster by the way.

67

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:30:46
86

The Spook, I note with great interest that you do not praise the Council Tax freeze. Do you, like many others, fear the resultant poll tax?
68

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:39:53
89

The Spook, if you praise the Council Tax freeze, you must praise the Council Tax's proposed alternative - or must you?
69

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:45:18
89

Come on The Spook - let us have a response. Are you in favour of the SNP's proposed poll tax?
70

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 15:47:24
Even if Scottish independence was a major issue , which it is not , whatever some may think , surely it cannot be for the people of Scotland alone to decide . Cessation from the Union , by any member , would clearly involve extremely complex matters in which the other members of a union of long and free association have a vested interest and who are equally entitled to have their say . Never mind Scotland , England , Ireland and Wales , the union created one country , Great Britain . The creation , one country , which historically already existed , was formally recognised and freely entered into , resulting in huge amounts of investment and shared interest over centuries . Therefore , by any objective reasoning , it cannot simply be within the remit of any one group to cecede and that the integrity and strategic interest of Country must remain paramount .
71

Marky o8,

France 31/03/2008 15:51:54
poster 93

I totally and utterly disagree with your comment.
72

Marky o8,

France 31/03/2008 15:52:39
poster 93

I totally and utterly disagree with your comment.
73

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 31/03/2008 15:58:05
94

The Spook, thank you for your reply. From your earlier contributions, I detected a lack of enthusiasm. While I agree that I hold your contributions in high esteem, I am afraid that I cannot say the same about your spelling. Are standards slipping further in Salmond's Scotland?
74

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 16:04:10
MARKY 95 . WHY ?
75

W U Merchant,

Spellchecker 31/03/2008 16:14:13
99

The Spook, I am begone - happily.
76

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 31/03/2008 16:52:34
#12, #13
77

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 16:59:23
#12,#13

Hey Dude, If that's the best U can do , then tough on U.

Name calling is a very crude substitute for debate or argument.

GC
--------------------------------

#1 Angus Ogg
Dude,
I stand by what I scribed , Ur comment is 100% hypothetical dude.

'What U have written is hypothetical, and therefore worthless, clap trap oratory. U have no clue about the future, and neither does anyone else'

Happy Haggis day

GC
78

kimba,

31/03/2008 17:01:24
Guess Tom Hunter made his millions courtesy of the UK,and accepted his knighthood from a English queen,makes you wonder what he's up too!
79

Lovepan,

England 31/03/2008 17:10:47
I love you all. I beseech thee my Scotish brethren, do not hate each other or call names! Love is the answer! And maybe fewer speed cameras north of Carter Bar.
80

Knit your own Yohgurt,

31/03/2008 17:11:46
If they had a referendum the SNP would lose.

The SNP will never accept the Scottish people's democratic right to form Unions with its friends and neighbouring countries.
81

oddoneout,

31/03/2008 17:19:05
can we please stop the incorrect use of gerrymandering, labour was caught ballot stuffing, using postal votes. gerrymandering is something completely different
82

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta..CA .....a valley in the Sun 31/03/2008 17:20:49

Dudes ,
An independent Scotland will be nothing more than a pip squeak nation, in a global economy, where big is better and big is safer. Scotland will join the 3rd. world brigade with their begging bowls.

And is seems fanatics like Alex Salmond , do not grasp that fundamental premise. Rather he lives in a historical dream of past failures.

His strategy of constantly attacking the UK and Westminster , could easily backfire on the SNP.

Clearly the small majority of SNP fanatics, will ignore the consequences, no matter what the cost be,to the majority of the Scots people.

BEWARE Scots voters. BEWARE

The SNP is no panacea for for Ur perceived ills, and difficulties in Scotland in 2008.

BEWARE Scots voters..BEWARE

GC



The advocacy of the utmost political advancement of one’s nation or people, without regard to the consequences, in promoting hostility and competition, discrimination and vilification.
83

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:29:03
#111 Rather a pip squeak than complicit with the septic's and their wee adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan and GitMO.

Then again, we're expected to take lessons from someone who has Arnie as his muscular Governor.
84

Truely English,

31/03/2008 17:29:16
It still is not clear to me what CIVIC NATIONALISM means, though I have been looking for an easy to understand meaning for a number of days now.

Does it mean that where one is born or which language they speak or what their day to day life style is (which normally creates stability) does not matter.

What creates stability in Britain and keeps us as one nation is primarily the British language: English.
As yet I am unsure as to what Civic Nationalism means for the ordinary person in the street.

Can I have a clear meaning provided by someone who can write plain English please.



85

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:29:52
#111 for #110, hey maybe one day we'll get a proper editing software on this here site.
86

GalacticCannibal.,

GalacticCannibal,Murrieta..CA Obama for prez 31/03/2008 17:41:59
The great American melodrama of 2008 has already been a saga of improbable twists and shocking turns, each prediction defied. At its centre has been the man who describes his candidacy as "an unlikely journey" - and in South Carolina he sprang one more surprise. Barack Obama won a walloping victory that ensures he heads towards next week's Super Tuesday primary battles in 22 states as a genuine contender and with momentum on his side
87

GalacticCannibal.,

VOTE SNP NOW&Obama 31/03/2008 17:42:59
Obama did not just win in the first southern state to vote in this year's contest, he wiped out his opponents. With 55% of the vote, he more than doubled the share commanded by Hillary Clinton. If the polls were wrong in New Hampshire, where Obama seemed to be ahead only to lose narrowly to Clinton on the night, they were more wrong in South Carolina. Most showed the Illinois senator leading in a race that seemed to be tightening; pundits thought he'd be lucky to win by a double-digit margin. Instead this was a landslide: Clinton trounced by 28 points
88

GalacticCannibal.,

A fly in the Whitehouse 31/03/2008 17:44:09
112
Dude stay of the shrooms and speak USA like me man.
89

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:51:49
#115 DUDE if you're going to plagiarise Jonathon Freedland from The Guardian, can I suggest you alter the text a tad so that it appears as if you might actually have a voice of your own.

Otherwise a complete absence of hatstand batshittery raises suspicions, n'est pas. Fraud.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jan/28/barackobama.usa
90

Andrew Allan,

31/03/2008 17:54:52
I just like the fact stated by Alex Salmond yesterday that two thirds of those in Scotland would vote for Independence.
91

frank mcbride,

lusitania 31/03/2008 17:55:27
#112, Truely English.

A brief definition of Civic Nationalism.

Civic Nationalism is the right of a Nation to govern itself in accordance with the wishes of its people: the rule of the majority, with the consent of the minority.

Scotland is a Nation in its own right, and, is therefore entitled to the rights stated above.

Remember GB is the result of a TREATY between two Sovereign Nation States i.e a Contract and any contract can be ended by either party giving due notice.
92

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 17:57:31
Oh you fakey sods!
93

Andrew Allan,

31/03/2008 18:01:01
#120.,frank mcbride.
Frank you are completely right, in fact if you look at the wording of said contract it has been broken many times with Scots not being treated in an equal manner, and the fact the empire no longer exists means the main reason for Scots belonging to said Great Britain no longer exists.
94

Truely English,

31/03/2008 18:02:36
120

Thank you for your prompt answer.

What happens if the majority takes no interest or tries to overwhelm the minority? What can the minority do then?
95

Miss H,

31/03/2008 18:07:03
112 There are a number of misconceptions in your question. Britain is not one nation - it is 4 nations. Yes English is the lingua franca but the same is true of Ireland, Australis, New Zealand, the USA. We are not one nation though are we?

What I think you need to get your head round is that it is not weird to want your country to be independent. That's not a strange fact that needs to be explained. Independence is the norm for most countries.

It doesn't mean you don't share common bonds, be thy linguistic, cultural or indeed political.

You could look at the Scandinavian countries for example. They work closely together. There is an identifiable Scandinavian identity and outlook. Yet they are all independent countries.

Many of us think that is the best option for what is now the UK.
96

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2008 18:11:41
#6

" Would we be able to watch Match of the Day with the present format"

Well on a recent visit to Dublin I was able to watch on terrestrial TV not only the Irish RTE stations but also BBC1, BBC2, STV and Channel 4. Fancy that eh! So it would be logical to conclude the answer to your question would be yes. Unless of course I am grossly mistaken and Ireland is infact still wholly part of the UK, their statehood being a fabricated illusion to pacify the republicans.
97

Andrew Allan,

31/03/2008 18:20:13
#125.,Miss H.
Unfortunetly not quite right Miss H. britain is both a nation all told but each country is not just a country but a nation too. To me though britain is but a nation by name and not by character. For britain to be a proper nation there would need to be a sense of equality between the peoples of each of the four countries, and not a sense that one of the countries think themselves as overlords.
98

Independently Minded,

31/03/2008 18:24:36
Post 125 from Miss H is typical of the SNP's pointless and logical irrelevancy.

He/she is like a dog chasing a car. A car moves so it can be chased, so it follows in the beasts head that is must be chased. Monkey see, Monkey do.

The dog has no idea what it will do once it catches car.

Or like a schemie gang member on one of Glasgows estates.

As their are identifiable borders surrounding me it follows that I must reinforce these nature physical boundaries with artificial constructs.

The post is total codswallop. Miss H and the SNP should try to demonstrate what an Independant Scotland can do that can't be done as part of a Union.
99

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 18:30:02
#124

"What happens if the majority takes no interest or tries to overwhelm the minority? What can the minority do then?"

Here's what happened last time.



As negotiations for union progressed, the public mood became increasingly volatile, and during 1706 there was frequent civil unrest and disorder in Scottish towns.

In October 1706 the Scottish Parliament met to consider the Articles of Union. Publication of the Articles triggered widespread unrest. Violent demonstrations took place outside Parliament House, and inside there were fears that the building would be invaded by protesters.

On 23 October the Edinburgh residence of Sir Patrick Johnstone MP, the former lord provost of the city, was attacked by the mob. Defoe described the Edinburgh mob as 'a hardened, refractory and terrible people'. On several occasions the Duke of Queensberry was pelted with stones, while other Scots MPs were bullied on their way to and from Parliament House.

Trouble now broke out elsewhere. Early in November there was rioting in strongly Presbyterian Glasgow. In Stirling, Dumfries and Kirkcudbright (also strongly Presbyterian and anti-union), copies of the Articles were burned at the town crosses, witnessed by aggressive crowds. There were rumours of a 50,000-strong 'Association' being formed in the north, and also of a Jacobite invasion led by the Old Pretender.

The Duke of Queensberry was not particularly liked by Queen Anne or her English ministers, but he had been successful in pushing the Union measures through the Scottish Parliament.

In Edinburgh he had been on the receiving end of eggs and stones, but in England he was feasted and feted wherever he went. As he and his small entourage approached the outskirts of London in April 1707, where he was to take part in the celebrations laid on by the court, he was greeted by cavalcades of noblemen and gentry in their coaches and on horseback. From Barnet the route became thickly lined with cheering crowds, and
100

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2008 18:30:31
#93

What would you suggest then in the event of a UK-wide cessation referendum, 75% of Scotland votes in favour but 75% of the UK as a whole votes against, the net effect being a resounding rejection at a UK level.

This would be catastrophic in terms of the cross-border resentment that would precipitate and the Holoyrood-Westminster relations post referendum would make that between Alex Salmond and Gordon Brown at present look like a passionate love affair.

101

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 18:31:05
..... From Barnet the route became thickly lined with cheering crowds, and by the time Queensberry's coach entered the City itself it had become engulfed in a magnificent parade.

On the morning of 17 April the Duke went to Kensington Palace where he was gratefully received by the Queen.

What you would call today a bloodless coup.


http://www.parliament.uk/actofunion/06_03_mob.html
102

IainGlasgow,

31/03/2008 18:37:32
#110

Big is better and big is safer?

Yes wasn't it fortunate for those student demonstraters in Tianunmen Square to have the tanks of the Peoples' Republic there to protect them.

Just think if only the USA had been that little bit bigger, there would be two more skyscrapers in New York than there are at present.

Keep well away from Luxembourg. Despite having the highest GDP per head in Europe it is nevertheless and extremely dangerous place to live, every steeet corner has either a mugger or a suicide bomber ready to pounce
103

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 18:45:48
Hey all U Dudes.

#115 , #116 are not my posts.

And Its flattering and/or irritating to see another poster ape my posts. They cannot be original thinkers, or they cannot think for themselves.

GC

I stand by my #112 post, which is re-stated below:

An independent Scotland will be nothing more than a pip squeak nation, in a global economy, where big is better and big is safer. Scotland will join the 3rd. world brigade with their begging bowls.

And is seems fanatics like Alex Salmond , do not grasp that fundamental premise. Rather he lives in a historical dream of past failures.

His strategy of constantly attacking the UK and Westminster , could easily backfire on the SNP.

Clearly the small majority of SNP fanatics, will ignore the consequences, no matter what the cost be,to the majority of the Scots people.

BEWARE Scots voters. BEWARE

The SNP is no panacea for for Ur perceived ills, and difficulties in Scotland in 2008.

BEWARE Scots voters..BEWARE

GC
104

Truely English,

31/03/2008 18:47:43
125
Other than Ireland the other Countries are thousands of miles away and were settled by British people who have English culyural values and an English way of life.
It is not the same for Scotland as we are part of the continouus land mass that makes up Britain.

129

Over the past week, I have been reading much of the articles and responses from the Scotsman newspaper on their website and have been surprised at how the Gaelic minority in Scotland seem to be hated by the rest of the population. Can someone explain why this should be the case?
105

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 19:04:47
#134 Ahem there is a continuous land mass from the Bering Straits to Calais, many different peoples, cultures and languages.

Re the Gàidhealtachd. Good question and I'll treat it with respect. It's an odd one. I suspect it's mostly a central belt thing, possibly a legacy of the many police hailing from the Highlands to quell the rapmant criminality on both sides of the religious divide, following the potato famine in Ireland and mass migration to Scotland.

I've seen British unionists at the Beeb, taking great pleasure in the fact that soon there will be more Indo-Pak speakers than native Gaels in this country. It's almost genocidal the way they refer to those who want to hold on and grow the native language.

I remember attending a media festival where Presbyterian Gaels sat down and got drunk and convivial with Republican Catholics, absolutely united through a common language, yet separated by politics and religion.
106

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 31/03/2008 19:11:31
#3+5 - yes you guys are already getting your knickers in a right fankle on what so-called "independence" really means.

For me greater autonomy under a federal structure with all the nations that make up the state called the UK is the sensible route and I believe once the real debate gets underway this will be the eventual outcome that the majority of sensible fowk north, south, east, and west chose. Anything else is an unnecessary gamble that will not bring genuine progress in any shape or form. The heads will eventually rule the hearts so bring on the dabate and the vote - I can't wait to witness the smirk being wiped off Aik Salmons fizzog!

Mind you after that I'm sure the "neverendum" will continue amongst the chattering classes who infest the SNP.
107

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 19:24:09
114 Freedom for Scotland . Well no I´m not completely ignorant of Scottish history . Unlike Britain , whose ancient concept preceeds the individual nation states of these islands , Great Britain stems from the late 16th century but more formally from early 18th and did not include Ireland . I did not mean to imply otherwise , since it was to the ancient concept I referred , but wished to keep my contribution relatively short . You went on to make assertions that are , in my opinion , meaningless . Suffrage was not universal , being available only to the ruling classes . That WAS the system at the time and it was these who entered the agreement freely . Bribery ? Think about what that truly means . Your point too regarding ¨The People ¨never being consulted is not correct when in fact they are consulted at every general election . You may have powers of clairvoyance not available to me but I see no evidence that the Scottish people wish to cecede . I suspect the roots of this Union are deeper than you suppose . As a Unionist I feel that profoundly and I always feel completely at home in any area of Britain and especially in a Scotland I love . But we shall see . Keep in touch .
108

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 19:29:49
#137 Würzburg, if you "see no evidence that the Scottish people wish to cecede", then surely you can have no fears from a Yes or No vote.
109

John Blackley,

Florida 31/03/2008 19:37:18
I have a question - and I'm not being provocative. I really do want (preferably considered) opinions on this:

Say the referendum takes place and it's a straight 'yes' or 'no' question. Say (bear with me here) that a simple majority of those voting opt for 'yes' (meaning that the majority of people in Scotland did not vote 'yes'). Say that the party in power in Edinburgh declares that Scotland will become independent on such-and-such a date. Then say that Westminster responds, "Oh no you won't!"

What then? Thoughts on this?
110

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 19:48:17
IAN GLASGOW 114 . Ian I am opposed to the breakup of Great Britain . I know that problems exist but we are not a stupid people . It should be possible to address most , if not all , concerns of all the peoples of these islands without dismantling the country . For centuries men from John o Groats to Lands End have sacrificed their lives to defend the integrity of this Land . It is not for us to forsake this heritage . I would not permit any vote , from any quarter , to cecede from this Union . In my opinion the present administrations in both Edinburgh and London are made up largely of charlatans and cowards who may well permit referendums . If it leads to the break up of the UK I can forsee terrible resentment , especially from the south , with far reaching consequencies . We cannot afford to be divided on this small island .
111

Wuerzburg,

Germany 31/03/2008 19:56:12
OSCARMAXAPFEL 138 . Oscar , the evidence of three hundred years of free association involving universal suffrage suggests no desire by most to cecede . I am opposed in principal to a vote on the subject and so the issue of my fears vis a yes or no vote are irrelevant . Are you in Wuerzburg Oscar ?
112

Angus Ogg,

31/03/2008 19:58:33
104 Galactic Canibal

I am not calling you a name. Genuinely, go and have another spliff.

The reason: you have no reason or logic. Your brain is clearly wasted so go and finish the job.

You cannot debate worth a t0ss.

You say, and I quote:

"U have no clue about the future, and neither does anyone else"

That is, to use your own rude phrase, "claptrap".

By your logic, nobody could use a plane, train or bus as you say nobody can predict the future.

Of course they can you derranged timewaster.

A key part of debate is working out what may happen in the future. Many take care not to repeat the mistakes of the past, and use predictive logic and reason.

My big error from the past was that I, like many others here in Scotland, have made a mistake in the replying to your irrelevant drivel, and did so again today.

I shall do my best to avoid your meaningless tripe in the future.

Have a happy Mariachi Band Day you stereo typing quarter wit.

113

Wuerzburg,

Germany 31/03/2008 20:08:24
DANIELROBER 140 . Daniel I´ve only seen the film Braveheart in parts but what I did see I thought of as rubbish . If those that rule us were swayed by that junk then by God we are in trouble . Anyway I think Mel Gibson is an odd little chap who can´t act . Not exactly precise ofcourse but I think Britain is about 2000 years old , with cooperation between the peoples of these islands even preceeding that . Got to remember the English part of the island was always the most fertile and therefore attracted the greater population . Wales and Scotland , apart from the lowlands , remained relatively sparse of people .
114

John Blackley,

Florida 31/03/2008 20:18:26
#141 danielrober, thank you for your response to my comment.

Unfortunately, despite having re-read my comment, I can find no reference to the violence you mention so I cannot relate to your comment.

I did, however, ask for thoughts on the hypothetical scenario I outlined. If those are the sum of yor thoughts then I thank you for sharing them.
115

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 20:20:28
John Blakely Florida .139. John its not a question that can sensibly be answered since there are so many imponderables . Legally I´m not convinced there is provision for a vote and certainly not one that lies in Edinburgh . Surely the breakup of the UK cannot simply be within the gift of the Scottish people alone ?
116

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 31/03/2008 20:20:52
36 AM2

Checked out your links. Not all of them accurate or comparable. Anyway, got the gist of it.

What you fail to mention each time is the level of support for more powers for the Scottish Parliament, either full independence or more devolved powers. Clearly, a number of people who voted for the SNP at the 2007 election are unsure whether they want independence or more devolved powers.

Here's a breakdown of stats used in a different way for the polls you posted:

25 Mar 2007 (Populus/Times)
More powers 79% v status quo 12%

17 Apr 2007 (Populus/Times)
More powers 78% v status quo 11%

30 Apr 2007 (Populus/Times)
More powers 77% v status quo 13%

19 Aug 2007 (YouGov/Sunday Times)
More powers 62% v status quo 20%

16 March 2008 (MRUK/Sunday Times)
More powers 68% v status quo 22%

What does it prove, you may ask?
It proves that two thirds of Scotland is unhappy with the current constitutional arrangement, and that we need a fully inclusive 'review' of the whole thing, not just for the 67% of electors who didn't vote for the SNP.

Also, it would be helpful to hear what unionists on these threads think of more powers and what they should be, or are you all in the tiny minority of people who want the status quo?

117

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 20:30:38
#138 Würzburg, nope i'm in Scotland although I have pootered through Würzburg on a barge several years ago.

I'd say a slight alteration in your principal and we can settle the issue of Independence for once and for all.

I'm presuming you're either from Scotland or have an association with the country, but surely from your Bavarian perspective you can see that an Independent Scotland is nothing to be afraid of.
118

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 20:32:59
144
Angus Ogg,
-----------------------------
U wrote;
"A key part of debate is working out what may happen in the future"

Dude , what may happen in the future, is nothing more than 'expressing a possibility" (it may snow).

The US Congress and our evil Pres Bush debated IRAQ before attacking IRAQ.

Guess what dude . They go it all wrong.

Everything they debated "what may happen in the future" they were wrong on.

And their debate, cost the US taxpayer tens millions dollars. Leading to a military disaster in IRAQ, with thousands being killed and one trillion dollars squandered.

I stand by my statement :
"U have no clue about the future, and neither does anyone else"

Debating the future is a colossal waste of time dude.

And as for U comment ;
"You cannot debate worth a t0ss"

Dude that is U opinion, and that's all it is.

Happy Haggis day Dude, and chill out. Have a slug of scotch, U will feel better for it.

GC
119

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA........captured from Mexico 1845 31/03/2008 20:38:26
Dudes ,
An independent Scotland will be nothing more than a pip squeak nation, in a global economy, where big is better and big is safer. Scotland will join the 3rd. world brigade with their begging bowls.

And is seems fanatics like Alex Salmond , do not grasp that fundamental premise. Rather he lives in a historical dream of past failures.

His strategy of constantly attacking the UK and Westminster , could easily backfire on the SNP.

Clearly the small majority of SNP fanatics, will ignore the consequences, no matter what the cost be,to the majority of the Scots people.

BEWARE Scots voters. BEWARE

The SNP is no panacea for for Ur perceived ills, and difficulties in Scotland in 2008.

BEWARE Scots voters..BEWARE

GC
120

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 21:03:26
OSCARMAXAPEFEL 149 . Thanks Oscar . Actually I write currently from latin America . Although I am British /English I have a long association with my former home in Wuerzburg , a home which remains engraved on my heart , as does Scotland , particularly Aberdeenshire. I´m not in any way opposed to new thinking in the way the whole country is governed . Indeed we may have much to learn from Germany and Bayern . However the principle I have regarding the inviolability of the country , Great Britain ,remains and cannot be violated on the altar and vagaries of sectional popular opinion . Personally I do not fear an independent Scotland , except in the context of the breakup of Britain , but if I were Scots I would fear an angry and vengeful England . I´m certain Scots will not follow the path of independence from all those others of long association in these wonderful islands .Thanks Oscar .
121

Ivan 2,

31/03/2008 21:18:38
Sir Tom Hunter is exactly right.
122

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 21:27:00
Danielrober 155 . I´m unaware of the Phoenecians naming . But interesting . I´ll look it up . Can´t agree about Melvin or his films . But each to his own . Cheers
123

Ivan 2,

31/03/2008 21:36:17
Scottish Labour leader Wendy Alexander said: "Sir Tom Hunter is certainly right that there's no way we should go down the route suggested by Alex Salmond.

"It's an absurd notion that he could gerrymander the vote and break up the UK without a straight majority."

To have a straight majority!!! Is Wendy Alexander now saying that their should be a vote for the Scottish Electorate to make a decision which way they want the country to go?
124

John Blackley,

Florida 31/03/2008 21:55:00
#155 danielrober, thank you for your response to my comment. As you have had - apparently - no further thought to communicate, I have no further response.
125

OscarMaxApfel,

31/03/2008 21:57:05
#153 Würzburg, we have nothing to fear from an angry and vengeful England. We've got Trident...
126

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 22:02:01
You see Oscar where all this independence talk leads ? Now the threat of nuclear war ! All we need now is Cap´n Sean in his nuclear milkfloat heading south . Thank God I´m currently in another continent .
127

Sam,

Edinburgh 31/03/2008 22:24:17
#155

The location where Wallace was taken (by fellow Scots) to be handed over to the English is known. It is on Robroyston Road west of Glasgow. There is marked by a small monument and is less than 1 mile from Wallace's Well. There are several stone farm buildings nearby the monument. A bit of archeological research may prove these buildings to stand on much older foundations...even the actual location of the house where Wallace was captured.
128

Truely English,

31/03/2008 22:40:45
My interest in why a large number of people seem to hate the Gaelic speakers came about when Dave from Barra who I thought was English but now I find out is a Nationalist and from Scotland was so scathing about both the language and their religion.

How can it be that Scots seem to hate fellow Scots in this way and in a place where Gaelic is I am told spoken.
129

Scotsman in Dublin,

31/03/2008 23:03:04
#143 Wuerzburg,"the evidence of three hundred years of free association involving universal suffrage suggests no desire by most to cecede"
Are you joking? Its pretty common knowledge amongst all but the most fanatical unionists that the vast majority of Scots were against the act of union. Even the English spy Defoe is quoted as saying "for every Scot in favour there is 99 against". Numerous rebellions and disturbances followed until Scots settled into an acceptance of the situation, hardly a "universal suffrage"

147 "Legally I´m not convinced there is provision for a vote... Surely the breakup of the UK cannot simply be within the gift of the Scottish people alone?"
If the Scottish people dont have a right to vote for independence of their own country who does? What version of democracy are they teaching you in Germany?
130

Wuerzburg,

Germany . 31/03/2008 23:37:48
Scotsman in Dublin . 165 . I think you´ve not read my contributions , probably wisely . However had you done so I would have hoped you might have been less confused by my meaning. Universal suffrage only came about in the twentieth century during which time the Scottish people have steadfastly voted neither for or demanded ceding from the Union . Thats a fact not open to interpretation . Those with authority to vote , three centuries ago , voted for union . Whether or not 99% of the population were against I leave to you. The home of democracy is certainly America . Do you supose that country would permit the cessation of , say , Texas or California ? Do you seriously believe Spain , France or Germany would permit even their most disparate communities to cecede ? Ofcourse not ! The integrity of the country comes before so called democracy .
131

Miss Jean Brodie,

31/03/2008 23:51:01
Refferendum - NOW!

Scotland for her Liberty, or Scotland NOT for her Liberty - It’s that easy .

I’ll have Liberty pleeze!
132

Scotsman in Dublin,

01/04/2008 00:11:36
#166, "The home of democracy is certainly America", On what basis do you make this assumption? There are good points and bad in reference to America, but it is not a beacon of democracy above all others. The fact is that any part of the USA that has tried to secede in the past has been put down by military force is, this is not democracy.

"Universal suffrage only came about in the twentieth century during which time the Scottish people have steadfastly voted neither for or demanded ceding from the Union . Thats a fact not open to interpretation"
I beg to differ, when exactly did the Scottish people get a chance to vote for or against the union? This was never an option put on the table.

From what you are saying, if Germany had won WWII and 50 years later the majority of people in what is currently the UK voted for independance this would not be a 'legal' option???

 

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