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Blair feared being called 'nutter'

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Published Date: 26 November 2007
By BILL JACOBS
TONY Blair suppressed his Christian religious views while prime minister for fear of being labelled "a nutter", he said last night.
Mr Blair said his faith had been "hugely important" to his premiership.

His former spin doctor Alastair Campbell once told reporters: "We don't do God," when asked about Mr Blair's beliefs.

However, the ex-prime ministerial press secretary ac
knowledged that his former boss "does do God in quite a big way", but that both men feared the public would be wary.

Mr Blair said his faith was a crucial component for him in having the character to take on the prime minister's job.

"For me, having faith was an important part of being able to do that," he said.

But while it was commonplace in the US and elsewhere for politicians to talk about their religious convictions, he added: "You talk about it in our system and, frankly, people do think you're a nutter."

British voters imagined that leaders who were informed by religion would "commune with the man upstairs and then come back and say, 'Right, I've been told the answer and that's it'".

Mr Blair said Mr Campbell's refusal to discuss his faith was not due to any opposition to his beliefs, but, rather, because "you always get into trouble talking about it".



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 25 November 2007 9:47 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Tony Blair's leadership
 
1

Senga Jean,

Scotland 26/11/2007 00:38:55

No fear. He is a nutter and so are all who continue to support his party!

2

,

26/11/2007 00:44:06
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3

,

26/11/2007 00:45:38
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4

JB2003,

26/11/2007 03:45:45

I think this just goes to show that the whole Blair administration was a sham. It shows that he would have told the public anything to persuade us to back his proposals. These "whiter than white" politicians are all just very good liars with hidden agendas, whether it be related to oil business, personal glorification or religious crusades.

I can't believe how wrong the public was back in 1997 - I remember staying up all night and cheering Portillo's dismissal but feel that we just got landed with a smarter and more deceptive leader. At least you knew where you stood with Thatcher!!

5

Jason,

Japan 26/11/2007 04:02:37

Unrepentant war criminal, the man that took Britain to war on a tissue of lies and deceit: No amount of "Hail Marys" are going to save your sorry ass. Even if you escape retribution in this life, the deepest circle of Hell is reserved for traitors and war criminals. So something to look forward to. Why Tony, you've gone quite pale.

6

Pete39,

Tassy 26/11/2007 05:34:29

Well Blair took the Labour party into the 21st Century. Because of him, you guys will have a party to vote for in the coming years. If you do not believe me, look back to the Labour party of the 1970's, even then folk were looking at them as if they were not quite the full shilling. Or would you rather get back to the flat caps, the comrades, brothers and the unions running the country into the ground. I have always voted SNP while in Scotland, they will be looking for a strong oppostion in the next election. Just thank Mr Blair for that.

7

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 07:24:47

One reason that he has played down the Catholic aspect to his life is that this country is still in an anti-Catholic time warp - not just the knuckle-dragging bigots that inhabit the likes of Larkhall but also supposedly intellectual areas like the English broadsheet press.

Nothing gets them foaming at the mouth more than Catholicism and Politics (or Royalty).

8

Guga II,

Rockall 26/11/2007 07:40:16

I think a lot of us thought that Bliar was a nutter anyway, without giving a second thought as to which particular mythology he believed in.

He is, however, a total hypocrite, as well as a liar and a charlatan. He states that his faith is "hugely important" to him, yet he joined Bush in getting into an illegal war which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. Nor did he do so for the sake of self defence of the country. His 45 minutes statement, for example, was a blatant lie.

Again, all this proves is that Bliar is a hypocrite, a liar and a charlatan, who is now trying, for whatever reason, to prove to people that he is a Christian. It is unfortunate that his beliefs are nothing other than mythology as, if they were fact, he could be sure of burning in hell alongside Bush and their ilk.

9

Alphonso,

26/11/2007 07:40:18

#7 - "not just the knuckle-dragging bigots that inhabit the likes of Larkhall"


What - like Paul McStay and his family, brought up in Larkhall?

10

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 07:51:17

#9 It is easy to give examples of Catholics in Larkhall but they are still a minority - Catholics, who account for just 2,000 out of the town's population of 15,000.

A few facts about Larkhall:

* When the council painted park gates municipal green, they were given a new coat of red, white and blue

* 205 traffic lights which signals go (green) have gone since 2004 in acts of vandalism that have cost the local council £16,880 in repairs

* Subway's standard livery is green throughout Britain. In Larkhall it is black

* Five years ago Moss Pharmacy in the town changed its front colours from green and white to red, white and blue

* Telewest boxes - originally green - were vandalised and reappeared blue

* In Hamilton, a chain of Indian restaurants is green and white, while the Larkhall branch is blue and white.

The sad thing is that the majority of the town's residents probably don't give a damn either way - my own brother-in-law being one. It is the large minority of bigots who are wagging the dog.

11

Walkin Dude,

In happy neutrality 26/11/2007 08:08:02

#10
Speaking of bigots - what is your view of the fine upstanding residents of Croy who see fit to throw bricks and stones at repair workers because they wear orange safety jackets?

Or are we not meant to mention that sort of thing?

12

John M.,

26/11/2007 08:20:41

Another example #11 would be how the fire brigade was attacked in Coatbridge by local hoodlums for being part of what they described as be the "Queen's 11".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/4436589.stm

13

Alphonso,

Land of the MOPE 26/11/2007 08:29:37

#10

There is only 1 non-Catholic family in Croy (I live close by)

Oh, and local police admitted that the reason the green traffic lights were getting smashed was because they were the closest to the ground (D'oh) ...and notwithstanding the fact that this happens in every Scottish (and probably English) town as well - but that wouldn't make a good tabloid story.

Just read an article this morning regarding the huge number of stabbing (and other serious assault) victims in Scottish hospitals - I would wager that under 1% of these incidents are in any way related to Catholic/Protestant conflict

14

Alphonso,

Land of the MOPE 26/11/2007 08:34:19

Oh, and #10, another point...

you say that only about 2,000 of Larkie's 15,000 population are Catholic (don't know where you get this figure, but I'll humour you)

If this is the case then around 13.5% of its population are RC. The figure for the whole of Scotland is (according to the 2001 census) just under 16% - so what's the problem?

15

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 26/11/2007 08:46:09

The biblical principle is clear "by their deeds ye shall know them". On this basis Tony Blair has not practised what he purports to believe. He therefore should be seen as a total fraud.

16

Number 6,

Germany 26/11/2007 08:50:40

Clearly it is not an advantage for anyone seeking a majority in Britain to express deep held religious views, especially Catholic. That been said, how does BLIAR square his Faith with his going to war on what he Knew were lies and deceit. Did he, like "George of Crawford", see the attack on Iraq as the next crusade.

I feel all politicians should be made to reveal any deep held religious beliefs, especially those that
will conflict with their political decisions. If we had
known BLIAR was a religious fanatic then Parliment would have been much more wary of his scare tactics.

He's got some explaining to do at the Pearly Gates.

17

bill2,

26/11/2007 09:09:50

A murderer, thief, liar, traitor and denier, and unrepentant to boot.

Some Christian.

18

JB2003,

26/11/2007 09:13:10

As an Aberdonian I find all this religious nonsense just that - nonsense. It's totally alien to Aberdonians as we just don't care about it. There's catholic churches and schools but nobody makes anything of it because it's just not an issue.

Now that Blair's gone, I'm all for David Icke to be PM! Well, him or Glenn Hoddle.

19

iRoy,

26/11/2007 09:23:59

He was elected to do the will of the electorate, not what his invisible sky wizard was deemed to be putting forward as instruction.

20

Paddi,

26/11/2007 09:25:45

I don't think Blair had to worry about being called a nuuter because of his religious beliefs. He was thought of as a nutter because of plenty of other things;
Iraq, Afghanistan, WMD, spin, Kelly, electoral promises broken, lies etc etc etc.

this guys name will always be tarnished

21

WENDY-WETNESS,

Puddles in the street, and rollling in a gutter... 26/11/2007 09:35:13

They also abandoned their principles for fear of being branded "Left wing"

22

bill2,

26/11/2007 09:44:10

19. iRoy

Let's get this right.

He was elected to serve the constituency of Sedgefield, not to do the will of the electorate.

The system in our country is that the two main parties share the power, and the Prime Minister is elected by them to do their will. The red and blue gangs in their turn are controlled by the people who bribe them for favours, the better to enrich each other.

The electorate have nothing to do with it, never mind any faith base.

23

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 10:03:05

#20 Afghanistan should not be in that list - it was the right thing to do to go in there. But then some on the left have a bit of a problem with geography - they seem to think that Iraq and Afghanistan are the same thing - they are not.

#16 "Clearly it is not an advantage for anyone seeking a majority in Britain to express deep held religious views, especially Catholic."

Interesting that you put "especially Catholic" at the end there - there is still an institutional bigotry in the British Establishment regards Catholicism - if there was not a problem the Act of Settlement would be abolished.

24

Cadgers,

Perth 26/11/2007 10:21:04

#12 I wish they'd, the firemen that is:-), turned the fire hoses on these lowlife moronic zombies.

25

Alastair the First,

26/11/2007 10:32:36

I think the problem with Blair is that he IS a nutter - he thinks some mythical friend in the sky has given him a mission and he must fulfil it. Every bit as nutty as the Islamic fundamentalists who want to murder anyone who doesn't follow their hardline views.

26

Boy Wonder,

26/11/2007 10:43:01

#17. Bill2 ...

A murderer, thief, liar, traitor and denier, and unrepentant to boot.

Some Christian.

No ... like most Christians! And other religions!

27

Paddi,

26/11/2007 10:43:43

#23, It's a matter of opinion of course if Afghanistan should be on that list. We have no clear strategy or exit plan for that country. And when the deployment to Afghanistan was explained by Blair's defence secretary "Dr" John Reid as being humanitarian, nation building and that he "would expect British troops not to fire one bullet in anger" one can only surmise that once again we have been misled and duped. So, Afghanistan stays on the list and by saying "it was the right thing to do to go in there" you sound like the politicians.

#25 Ali the 1st, please add to the very end of your posting the name, G W Bush.

28

Maurice,

Fife 26/11/2007 10:44:53

Religous or not, Tony Blair is a nutter. Amongst other things

29

,

26/11/2007 11:11:12
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30

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 11:21:46

He didn't "suppress his views" he hid them while acting upon them. There were plenty of warning signs of that already though. What is interesting is that he now appears to be admitting that he was such an insecure weakling he didn't have the bottle to be open about his convictions. Or was he really a despotic man hiding his views for an ulterior motive. Come on Mr Blair tell us which it is.

31

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 11:37:10

#7 So if he had been a member of Sinn Fein it would have been OK to "suppress" that too because a few biggots might not have voted for him? Even a tin of been has its ingredients listed on the tin!

32

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 12:03:38

#29

No Catholic has ever been elected as Prime Minister.

Iain Duncan Smith is the only Roman Catholic ever to lead a British political party.

So maybe Blair was right not to reveal his leanings?

33

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 12:05:04

#32 If he were a memeber of Sinn Fein he would have stood for Sinn Fein. the point is that teh English establishment are still predominantly anti-Catholic in their views.

34

G,

dundy 26/11/2007 12:32:59

We know that he is a nutter! After all he looked at the evidence that Iraq had WMDs and concluded that we had to invade!
He was feearful of also being thought of as a religious zealot, which most people knew he was....

35

Ananurhing,

26/11/2007 12:33:58

So the fear was that the public would have branded him a nutter, had he been perceived to have gone and " commune with the man upstairs and come back and say, Right I've been told the answer and that's it."
With the benefit of hindsight, isn't that exactly what he did! He went of to see the Pope, took us to war on the strength of WMD, then came back and said with his most sanctimonious Ike like smugness, "You're just going to have to trust me on this one."
I think he's the most worrying kind of nutter. No recognition of his wrongdoing. Takes no responsibility. Shows no remorse.
Look up sociopath in the dictionary.
Don't forget WE are still waging his illegal war. The sooner he's on remand in Holland the better.

Maybe that's his plan. Become an asylum seeker in the Vatican when the Hague issue his arrest warrant.
I don't underestimate this mans derangement!

36

G,

dundy 26/11/2007 12:35:24

#33

I had no idea that Ian Duncan Smith was a catholic. Iknew he was a terrible ineffectual leader but if I known he was a left footer that would have explained it all....

37

sam the god,

26/11/2007 12:35:30

this is quite funny

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines...

38

bill2,

26/11/2007 12:50:44

26. Boy Wonder

Everybody has some religion; what is yours - nihilism?

39

bill2,

26/11/2007 12:54:55

31. jennifer


"You can have, all, the positive qualities,you speak of,with or without Religion. In itself, Religion is not prerequisite."

Logical positivism is in itself a religion.

Religion is not just a prerequisite, it is a thought process which everyone has, an essential part of being.

40

Paddi,

26/11/2007 12:55:38

#35 winni,

If you knew even the tiniest bit about what’s been happening in the global economy over the last 10+ years you'd have know that these first two "achievements" were to do with what was happening within the world economy and not through the policies of Blair and Brown. The latter who has actually squandered and mortgaged this time of prosperity where now we have precious little in the coffers to get us through the bad times. The only point I can concede is #3

41

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 13:04:22

#39 He converted to catholicism as a teenager.

42

Boy Wonder,

26/11/2007 13:06:12

#41. bill2 ... no ... not everybody has "some religion"!! That's just wishful thinking on your part ... and those who can't accept living without a mythical "god"!

Nihilism is a philosophical position ... not a religion.

Do your research better!

43

,

26/11/2007 13:14:31
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44

bill2,

26/11/2007 13:20:56

35. Wini

"Sometime in the future, when people can judge with hindsight, the phrase, 'Blair's legacy' may be to his great credit for standing up to a global threat... the dictators and Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists."

Wishful thinking. Blair will always be remembered as one who took this country into an illegal and unjustified invasion resulting in the deaths, injuries and exile of millions. A war criminal, a traitor, a thief, and a liar.

"the author of the above post who is a fool for blaming the situation onto Tony. Does she blame the conflict of WW2 onto Winston Churchill."

Churchill led us in a just war against our country and its allies. Blair led us into an illegal and unjust invasion. His name is not fit to be in the same sentence as that of Churchill.

"So now Tony is being made out to be a liar and criminal for declaring war on dictators and the Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist."

He didn't even declare war, which is illegal in itself. He just steamed in and killed people without any valid reason.

"the examples of Iraq and Afghanistan are well worth while, and we are all safer as a consequence."

Rubbish, we are all in far greater danger as a consequence.

New Labour Achievements?
Rampant house price inflation, low interest rates causing debt economy, minimum wage causing unemployment and black economy. Plus wrecking of the fabric and institutions of our society, rubbishing of schools and healthcare, crime-ridden streets, and thievery of our money. Even the wretched tories couldn't do worse for us.

Where are you posting from - some parallel universe with good substituted for the bad that we have to live with?

As for your #36, I have answered that type of nonsense on previous occasions; if you choose to ignore the facts, that is your business.

45

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 13:21:37

#47 Record police numbers in England, Scotland and Wales.
Now that either says something about the state of the country or the style of government.

Cut overalls are a crime?
Literacy in "numeric" schools, how many exactly?

46

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 13:23:09

#45

the dodgy dossier

war crimes.

47

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 13:25:40

#47 Record police numbers in England, Scotland and Wales.
Now that either says something about the state of the country or the style of government.

48

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 13:27:23

Tony blair lied to the House of Commons, he lied to the British people, he has undermined the intelligence services for all time by politicising their output so he could cherry pick the data he wanted. He illegally invaded a country with his equally nutty religious friend based on the (known) fantasies of an Iraqi refugee who would say anything to be allowed to remain. He can say as many hail marys as he wants he is going to the big bad fire.

49

bill2,

26/11/2007 13:30:03

46. Boy Wonder

You don't need a deity to have a religion, just a set of rules which is what the word means.

"Nihilism is a philosophical position ... not a religion."

I disagree. I would call communism, atheism, veganism, etc religions as well.

50

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 13:34:04

Tony Blair reminds me of the opening scene in Mean Streets where Harvey Keitel is pondering whether just to confess your sins can absolve them. No it doesn't. He can spend the rest of his life on his knees it won't do him any good.

51

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 13:36:33

#53 Going to the Big Bad Fire is part of the problem not part of the solution. Tony could do what he liked so long as he believed. Either God would forgive him and everything would be fine or if he screwed up really bad he would go to Hell and pay for his sins. Either way punishment in this world would not be appropriate or relevant so in the meantime, abrogation of responsibility as usual.

52

Baza,

Cambridge 26/11/2007 13:37:34

The phrase "double-standards" comes to mind. In a country where we are free to practice any religion we please without fear of retribution, Mr Blair was held his council because he didn't want to be called a "nutter". NEWS FLASH We thought you were a nutter for invading Iraq. We might have thought you were normal for to church every Sunday.
So why can't we have a Roman Catholic monarch? They would be taking advice from the Pope....

Anyway it time to get back to my Jedi meditations.

53

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 13:40:16

#57 he's not gonna get punished in this world, we all know that. i just hope he has converted i really do, and bought the whole thing hook line and sinker. that might give him something to think about as he's getting older.

54

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 14:15:15

He lied in the dossier he presented to the House of Commons. You know he did, stop kidding on. Feel free to report me for defamation of character. I would love a day in court, so would several million of us. He is a liar he cherry picked information from the intelligence services in order to take us into an illegal war.

55

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 14:17:55

45 minutes.

56

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 14:18:32

he knew that was bollox. he is a liar.

57

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 14:18:48

#61, ah ha.. I have eventually worked it out.

I thought Wini was a NuBlab supporter but really all Wini is trying to do is to stir you all up to continually repeat and publicise Tony's lies and crimes.

Cunning, keep it up Wini, keep repeating and repeating and repeating ....

58

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 14:27:03

Furthermore Wini by his actions of lying and committing war crimes he has brought this country into peril. That is not what a Prime Minister is supposed to do. He will have his place in history.

59

sam the god,

26/11/2007 14:30:13

#48 Disgusted reader

we will see if you stop or will you come back under a different name

60

Baza,

Cambridge 26/11/2007 14:34:21

The phrase "double-standards" comes to mind. In a country where we are free to practice any religion we please without fear of retribution, Mr Blair was held his council because he didn't want to be called a "nutter". NEWS FLASH We thought you were a nutter for invading Iraq. We might have thought you were normal for attending church every Sunday.
So why can't we have a Roman Catholic monarch? They would be taking advice from the Pope....

Anyway it time to get back to my Jedi meditations.

61

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 14:37:43

#69 Meanwhile Rwanda rotted

62

Paddi,

26/11/2007 14:43:53

Wini,

you’ve been told what lies , time and time again, just like Blair you don't want to listen or acknowledge the truth. if you think low interest rates and mortgages has anything to do exclusively with new labour then dream on.

The one thing which hasn’t been mentioned here which lair will regret in the next world is the hounding to his death of that poor man Doctor David Kelly, why? because he had the temerity to try and whistle blow on the lie that was WMD and 45 minutes.

If you want to defend Blair after that then you've as deluded and as bad as him.

63

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 14:46:14

FAO Wini

' We know that Saddam has stockpiles of major amounts of chemical and biological weapons '

'Saddam Hussein is developing weapons of mass destruction and we cannot leave him doing so unchecked'

'There is no doubt at all that the development of weapons of mass destruction by Saddam Hussein poses a severe threat not just to the region but to the wider world'

Dodgy dossier - ' Saddam was a current and serious threat to the UK national interest'

'The intelligence is clear'

All lies.

64

AJ of Fife,

26/11/2007 14:46:42

Since the murdering son of a bitch admits to believing in fairy tales, perhaps he should be flayed and crucified as per the so-called prophet!

This story only underlines Blair's deviousness - he was even able to compromise his own faith in order to cultivate his public fascade.

Some Christian!! Maybe a typical Christian?

65

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 14:48:58

Wini 73# "A lot of the anti-Tony post here, with one notable one, give the impression that they are sympathetic to the Islamic fundamentalist extremist cause."
Which planet are you on exactly or are anti Tony posters now meant to run scared in case they are fingered as crypto terrorists? Get back to teaching pre-school.

If you are truly interested in the Balkans think, the Dardanells, weather and possible oil pipeline routes.

66

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 14:54:49

Wini #79 The moon is made of Cheese. I am not lying my 5 year old said it and I am just passing it on

67

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 14:56:53

FAO Wini.

They manipulated the intelligence reports to get the data they wanted. Blair and Campbell knew that, they gave the orders. The 45 Minute claim came from an Iraqi domiciled in Germany, they discarded the intelligence as unreliable, Blair didn't. He is a liar.

68

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 15:00:13

Wini #82 What argument and what about your post #67. Double standards or what?

The rules are not your gift to give so don't expect anyone here to be impressed with your declarations of success.

69

Paddi,

26/11/2007 15:06:30

#79, the guy who passed this information on goes onto get a Knighthood and heads up the whole shabang. Not bad for passing on useless/worthless/discrdeitied intelligence information some of which was cut and pasted off the internet. From a university student essay 5 years previously. Stop trying to defend the indefensible, Blair will go down in history as the worst and most dishonest PM in the history of that office.

Btw, where's the personal abuse in #78??

I find your post #80 far more abusive and insulting, but then again why should i be surprised?

70

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 15:07:04

FAO Wini Operation Rockingham. It's all in the public domain.

71

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 15:11:03

O dear Wini what an inglorious retreat.

72

Paddi,

26/11/2007 15:15:57

I thought you were going after #88, having the last word?

For your information I’m sure people here won't find your postings on "the tea article" amusing. baffling and confusing yes, amusing NO

73

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 15:28:47

#54 The biggest War Crimes are by the far left who sit in denial about other War Criminals.

All action whether you agreed with it or not was passed by Parliament - including action in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia.

I may not have agreed with action taken in Iraq and the slowness of response in Yugoslavia but I do recognise that in each situation we were dealing with regimes that were responsible for crimes against humanity. They had to be dealt with and not ignored or even supported as some on the far left have done.

In fact I'd go as far to say that the objections of some has nothing to do with being anti-war - the pacifist position is a justifiable one in my opinion - and everything to do with their own anti-Americanism. We are talking about people who are oppositionalists for the sake of it - people who sit their all pious objecting to war in Iraq but would not blink if similar action were taken against say Israel.

74

bill2,

26/11/2007 15:44:40

87. Ms Fiona

Thanks for the reminder. Stacks of information on Bliar's trickery. Good analysis here:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/THU407A.html

75

Redfive,

26/11/2007 15:45:30

Well Mr Bliar we dont think you are a nutter we think you are a lyer because of all the many many lies you told us, I know you said they where spin but they were not they where outright lies.
You ignored the will of the people (iraq war march) and before going to parliment to ask for war based on lies you had already promised GW you would blindly follow him.
You destroyed our pensions, you neglect the old and infirm and have an open door imigration policies that favour the non-nationals and treats OAP services as something that can be continually cut back on, shame they did not know that when they were fighting for our freedom during the war. But with your PC brigade fighting for our freedoms in the past counts for absolutley nothing, nor does paying tax for a lifetime.
Talking of freedoms you send us into an illegal war and then tell us our freedoms must be curbed. You give us a human rights act which only ever favours the criminals. You give minorites favourism over the nationals.
Everywhere we look we see unaccountable goverment incompetence costing the country billions, tax credits, sell the gold reserve, NHS, IT projects, to name but a few and there are many.
You told us you would listen and you did but you never took any notice of what we said.
You have failed this country time and time again and put your own ego above what was best for the nation.
You ruined our security with Iraq and you deveoped a goverment that treats us as customers that can be fined and monitored at every turn.
There was only ever one person you tried to please and that was GW.

76

Redfive,

26/11/2007 15:52:05

86. Paddi - Spot on comments

It was never about being anti-american it was always about our ruling class being down right lyers manipulating information to their own end, its not spin its down right lies and I pity anyone who cant see that.

77

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 16:03:04

#92 the point is that the Iraqui action sanctioned by parliament was based on lies. we may all have been glad to see the back of saddam, who wouldn't, but the facts are that we did not do it for altruistic reasons. and the world knows that.

78

Paddi,

26/11/2007 16:03:57

#92, I find your remarks about the international community failing to do it's duty etc very disingenuous as if you can pin everything onto the "left" whoever they are as well as calling everybody who disagrees with you as "Anti- American" are US citizens who disagree with their government called anti-US?

You seem to have selective memory loss. It was, amongst others the US which supported and armed Iraq. You bankrolled Saddam and his henchmen when they were fighting your proxy war. Your very own Mr D Rumsfeld having spent plenty of time in the Bagdad bazaars selling all sorts of goodies from the glossy Halliburton magazines. To lecture us about responsibilities, is, a wee bit rich.

79

yockel,

Home 26/11/2007 16:04:34

#92 You don't need to be a pacifist to be disgusted by war just as you don't need to be an anarchist to be disgusted by a government.
Just because someone is against the actions of a particular government does not make them anti-that country or a traitor. Being opposed to a foreign policy does not in itself make you anti-semitic. Airing those spectres is useful in attempting to stifle open discussion so please don't go there in this thread. It's just the same sad hidden threat as in Wini's #73. Agree with me or I shall call you something unsavory and mud sticks.

80

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/11/2007 16:31:50

92 "They had to be dealt with and not ignored or even supported as some on the far left have done. "

Why then did teh UK and US support these regimes? The US/Uk supported Saddam while he was gassing the Kurds snd committing genocide. They supported the Taleaban and Bin Laden while they opposed the USSR. They supported the dictatorship of Pinochet in Chile after he assassinated the democratically elected government.

An illegal war is an illegal war. Don't try and justify the deaths of 700,000 Iraqi civilians with claims that the UK was acting for human rights.

Blair thought his religion would make him nutty? Lying about WMD and contributing to 700,000 civilians dying might.

81

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/11/2007 16:32:00

100

82

Ananurhing,

26/11/2007 16:45:47

70# Wini.
"Appraisment has not, does not, and will not work"

So just blindly steam in to war because it's just and God wants it?
Had he appraised the WMD evidence, or what resources would be required to support our troops to be effective in Iraq, or what planning would be needed to stabilise Iraq after the invasion, we would never have gone to war.
Neither Bush nor Blair made any proper plans for either the war, or the aftermath.
Read Bob Woodwards "Plan of attack." ie there wasn't one.

83

 Ayrshire Scot™,

26/11/2007 17:29:18

101 - Well, there was some planning. Of 82 operational oil fields, 17 are now in the control of the Iraqi National PC/ government, the rest are under American "management" of one kind or another.

84

,

26/11/2007 18:17:45
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 1175761, Article id was mapped to record!
85

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 20:07:33

Ayrshire - I have no problem with those who opposed the war - I did not support us going in either. However, I am constantly pissed off with the Trotskyite left re-inventing history for their own perverted ends. There are elements within the anti-war movement who have their own sectarian, anti-American and ultimately anti-semitic agenda.

They see everything in black and white terms. Anyone with a modicum of sense knows it is not that simple - Iraq was a choice between one evil and another - there are some here who were not even prepared to tackle Saddam full stop.

I'm pissed of with middle-class toytown revolutionaries denying the atrocities of the B'aathist regime.

As for our past involvement - yes the UK, France and the USA's past interventions in the region are a disgrace - but it does not excuse us from taking action.

As I have said before, I did not support military action in Iraq - but it has happened and we have to deal with the situation as it stands not how we wish it could be - some people seem to forget that and revel in every death that occurs there - as if it were another notch on their own little revolutionary totem.

86

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 20:30:02

I think your comments say more about you than anyone else.

You know fine well that Saddam committed his major atrocities in the eighties and early nineties. If there was a time to invade it was at the end of the first Gulf War. And the Kurds and everyone else were let down.

To despise Tony Blair is not to be anti semitic. It is simply that he is worth despising, he lied to us, discredited us, has put this country into danger and anyone who pretends otherwise is deluded.

We did not invade Iraq for altruistic reasons. I know about the B'aathist regime. 'The West' did not care then and it does not care now. That does not make me a trotsyite middle class toy town revolutionary, merely someone who can read.

87

Disgusted Reader 3,

Scotsman: BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BOYCOTT BBOYCOTT 26/11/2007 20:35:44

From another user posting to all. Given this papers abuse of nationlist users and it's subsequent withdrawal of all legitimate and democratic posts

:why don't you take up the suggestion of others of a boycott of the Scotsman on St. Andrews Day (November 30th or LIFE)? -You could co-ordinate this by posting on as many forums as you have time to copy and paste on.

It would be interesting to see if such a `trial run` were effective. You are obviously motivated to do this, and it's obvious that editorial policy on a once fine newspaper has gone seriously awry - they take a deliberately provocative line on a number of issues that require serious debate, because of the current fashion in stoking controversy for controversy's sake., which is there to sell papers.

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88

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 20:41:58

#105 Fiona - I am certainly not accusing everyone who was against the war of being middle class toy town revolutionary - what I am fed up of is a small vocal element within the anti-war movement who have hijacked the issue for their own narrow sectarian ends.

I agree by the way that Saddam should have been removed at the end of the first Gulf War but his atrocities continued well after the late 80s and early 90s.


(to be continued)

89

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

26/11/2007 20:42:48

Iraq was never a good versus evil argument - it was a choice between one evil and another. Either leave Iraq alone and face the consequences of Saddam staying in power or invade and face the consequences of insurgent terrorist acts.

Those who continue to say that things would have been better if Saddam had stayed do not really know the truth - I think no-one knows in reality what may or may not have happened. Irrespective of the issue of WMDs Saddam's record of murder, torture and abuse speaks for itself.

In 1982, following an assassination attempt against Saddam Hussein during a visit to Dujail, 148 people were killed in the village.

In 1983, 8,000 male members of the Kurdish Barzani tribe in the northern province of Arbil were arrested and deported to southern Iraq. No trace of them has ever been found.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. The Anfal ('Spoils') campaign was designed to depopulate the Kurdish regions in northern Iraq. Some estimate that up to 182,000 people were killed or died from cold and hunger and entire villages were razed.

The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages duriong this period. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. over 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the Shi'ite uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south."

At least 270 mass graves were found in 2003 containing tens of thousands of people.
Saddam Hussein's regime also carried out frequent summary executions, including:

* 4,

90

Ms Fiona,

26/11/2007 22:26:52

Federalist I agree with you, I will always agree with you about the barbarity of Saddam. But he was not removed for his barbarity he was removed for oil. Is it possible to make the situation in Iraq worse ? Yes I think it is. But I will agree to disagree with you, all the best.

91

truthsleuth,

26/11/2007 22:57:20

Well at least he knows what he is.

92

Rt. Hon. Moosejoy, Bart.,

Philadelphia, PA 23/12/2007 23:50:33
What has Tony Blair got against our Mayor-to-be?

 

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