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Computer says this postman should be able to walk at 4mph

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Published Date: 12 December 2008
IT WAS the pace set by the demanding army general Lucian Truscott, who pushed his troops to march at 4mph to increase the distance they covered during the Second World War.


The gruelling "Truscott Trot", which upped the speed from the normal 2.5mph, became famous for creating some of the fittest and strongest soldiers in the war.

However, now postal workers are claiming that they are being subjected to similar treatment from their Royal Mail managers as they carry out their rounds.

But rather than creating troops of super-fit posties, it could result in mutiny in the ranks as beleaguered delivery staff claim the pace is impossible to keep up.

The Communication Workers Union (CWU) said delivery staff were being told to walk at a speed of 4mph, an increase over a previous target of 2.4mph.

This, it said, was being used as a cost-saving measure so that staff delivered larger quantities of mail in shorter periods of time. The union even said some staff have been sacked for being too slow.

The Royal Mail has denied the union's claims.

Postal workers say the problem centres on a Royal Mail computer system called Pegasus Europe Geo-route, which calculates the optimum post load that can be delivered by staff.

Postal workers claim they regularly have to work over their hours because the time allocated to complete their rounds is not sufficient.

One postman said: "The job is supposed to be done at a rate of four miles an hour.

"That is taking into account calling at doors for packets, recorded deliveries, registered letters. That pace is just not achievable."

Bob Gibson, the union's national officer, said postal staff were being bullied.

"Royal Mail is using this system to meet financial savings without considering the physical realities of delivery rounds," he said.

"This is putting pressure on delivery workers and leading to bullying and harassment. CWU has an agreement with Royal Mail to jointly review all aspects of Pegasus, but the business has reneged on this and is pushing ahead with damaging changes without input from the union.

"This is having disastrous consequences on services in some parts of the country."

He added: "We need Royal Mail to see sense and review this system with the CWU."

The union says it is being inundated with complaints from workers across the country about the speed they are being told to walk at.

However, a Royal Mail spokesman said the claims were "nonsense".

He continued: "Royal Mail carefully plans every postman and postwoman's walk so that no-one is asked to cover a greater distance or deliver more mail than they are capable of doing and it's complete nonsense to suggest otherwise.

"The systems we use to help us plan the most effective delivery walks have been successfully used nationwide in many hundreds of delivery offices since 1996.

"The average postman or woman covers just over five and a half miles on their walk over a three-and-a-half-hour period."

'Dejected, I could not believe my pace was still too slow'

'PAH. Piece of cake," I said, when set the task of walking along Princes Street in Edinburgh at 4mph.

As a keen runner, with longer than average legs, I thought it was a derisory task.

How wrong I was.

First I walked the length of Edinburgh's famous shopping street at 2.4mph – the speed posties are apparently currently told to aim for.

It did feel a little like a dawdle. Hordes of shoppers were overtaking me, and I felt a little like I was getting in the way.

It was a cold day and I wanted to speed up to keep myself warm.

So I approached the task of upping my pace to 4mph with confidence.

Armed with a GPS-enabled watch to measure my speed, I set off briskly.

When I looked down to check my speed, expecting to have to slow my pace, I was shocked to discover I was going nowhere near fast enough.

I swung my arms, stretched out my legs and charged ahead as fast as I could.

I felt a bit like I was taking part in a walking race, legs firing back and forth like pistons, hips going 19 to the dozen.

I dodged shoppers, my makeshift postal bag (a laptop in its case) banging against my hip and threatening to whack passersby.

Some looked at me in alarm as I charged towards them, and either froze or quickly stepped out of the way.

Even the chuggers and market researchers looked wary and decided to avoid me – so walking that fast does have some benefits.

Once again, I looked at my running watch, certain this time it would show me I was going at least 4mph.

It told me I was walking at 16.5 minutes per mile, whereas I needed to keep it at 15.

Dejected, I could not believe my pace was still too slow to meet the target. My time suffered even more when I was forced to stop repeatedly at pedestrian crossings.

By the end of the 0.81-mile walk, my heart was pounding and I was beginning to sweat.

The conclusion I reached was that it was utterly impossible to walk consistently at 4mph. I walked less than a mile.

For postal workers who have to walk for hours, it would clearly be even more difficult.

I dropped my pace to return to the newsroom, where fortunately we are not told to walk, type, eat or do anything else at minimum speeds, but just to meet deadlines.

On the way to the office, I passed a red-faced postman waiting for a bus at the end of his shift, looking tired and slightly fed up. I felt his pain.


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 December 2008 9:10 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

,

11/12/2008 23:56:14
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Schot,

12/12/2008 00:12:12
4mph is what a fit person should be aiming for over the distances posties walk on their route. However posties don't just walk their route. They also stop to open and close gates, walk up garden paths, get parcels signed for once the householder finally answers their door, stooping every minute to find the groundlevel letterboxes that sadists install.

Working employees to ill-health through unattainable 'standards' is not a long-term recipe for profit.


3

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 12/12/2008 00:59:14
Most people these days understand that computers don't "say" or "decide" anything, they just process the information they're given and produce a result.

Jenny Haworth's idea of computers still seems to be stuck in the 60s, though.
4

jerrymanders,

12/12/2008 01:00:58
#1

Most of your squad will be delivering the last post after Christmas.
5

JWW,

Whitburn,West Lothian, 55.86667 -3.68500 12/12/2008 01:02:38
Could the average speed of the Postman not be determined by the distance between the dropped red rubber bands?
6

,

12/12/2008 01:08:58
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

jerrymanders,

12/12/2008 01:23:49
#6

Thank goodness.
8

Sand between the toes,

the beach 12/12/2008 01:59:38
How can your postie be a Jambo ? Posties need to be able to read
9

notime4anovice,

glasgow 12/12/2008 02:07:30
When I first moved here 10 years ago our post arrived at about 7.30 am. Now it arrives at about 1pm give or take an hour here or there.
I live in a city so I suspect it's worse out in the sticks.
I doubt if making posties walk faster could make up for the 5hrs difference in 10 years.
I suspect it's just more rubbish that we have to put up with in this rubbish country.
10

drunken proffet,

Tassy 12/12/2008 03:07:02
The only guys I know off that can hit this speed are golfers on a hot summer day, playing the inward half and heading for the bar.
11

DesertRat,

Southwest USA 12/12/2008 05:05:50
Yeah - but it isn't the computer that's doing the walking. 4 mph is a helluva pace to maintain over a substantial distance and with all the stops a letter carrier has to make, they'd have to run at 6-7 mph to maintain it. I suspect the idiots who support such nonsense whouldn't want to deliver mail would they?
12

Sinead,

Tanunda 12/12/2008 05:28:55
Why don't posties have a motorised scooter as they do in Australia?
13

Waus,

safety bay 12/12/2008 05:57:47
#7 you make me smile!you think the Brits would be that progressive&want to look after their Posties by giving them motor bikes to save their poor legs!!
14

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/12/2008 06:12:29
Oh, stop complaining.'

Yesterday we got over one foot of snow within 34 hours and the snowbanks are between one and two feet high here in Ottawa.

The post wasn't even delivered yesterday because of the weather although they are obligated to do so.

We should not be dictated by computers and lunatic time and motion nerds who have all the sense of slugs.

These postmen and ours are doing their best under the most trying of weather conditions -rain, sleet, snow (LOTS OF SNOW!), mean dogs, crabby older people, nitpickers, instant experts, etc.

Be thankful your mail gets to your door at all with all the factors I have listed above.
15

drunken proffet,

Tassy 12/12/2008 06:13:36
I think that the system is different. The posties buy their own special bikes and contract to the post office. Well within the capabilities of the UK Postal service to organise. However they are also allowed to ride on the pavement. If I remember correctly, not even the wains in Scotland are allowed to ride on the pavement. Well there is another good, well proven, idea gone down the tubes.
16

CindyWE,

Austin, Texas 12/12/2008 06:40:15
How can this possibly be fair to the postal workers? They now deliver more mail in more densely populated areas than they ever did during the war. Todays postal workers have to deliver more junk mail, and more special delivery mail than was ever sent during the war. What are those bureaucrats thinking? Why don't they factor in all those differences, plus the evidence of trial delivery routes walked by the bureaucrats in the postal service? Then let's see what a fair pace would be for them to expect for the fine people who brave the elements every day in rain, sleet and snow to serve all the rest of us!
17

,

12/12/2008 06:53:29
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
18

Isla Valassie,

12/12/2008 07:27:13
#5 Excellent idea. Perhaps the Royal Mail bosses could also save a bit of dosh by insisting their staff recycle the rubber bands instead of depositing them on customers driveways
19

Montford's Jaicket,

Hanging Around 12/12/2008 07:39:59
When I was a student Christmas postie it was expected that I would not only sort 5 times the usual volume of mail in the same time but deliver it as well. To speed me on my way I was given a bicycle - but have you ever tried to cycle with mailbags full of post hanging about your person? Sounds like Royal Mail haven't changed a lot in terms of common sense.
Obviously the time is here when the Chief Exec of Royal Mail should be asked to go into a busy sorting office and do a 6.30-17.00 shift in mid December so he can see how hard it is to meet these ridiculous speed targets.

BTW 16 - times have changed in Scotland. Cycles are not only allowed on the pavements, they can go through red traffic lights or wrong way down one-way streets and can have dim, flashing lights to front and rear which point in any random direction, or none.
20

Skimmington,

Wisconsin, USA 12/12/2008 07:46:56
This same idea has caused trouble here in the States. Despite Carriers going postal, a similar program still exists.
21

,

12/12/2008 07:48:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
22

Thelma,

Australia 12/12/2008 08:00:17
When I was a student - too many years ago to mention I worked as a postie one Christmas. I used to go out in the dark and cold in Aberdeen with a fairly large post bag (I'm only 5"2) and I'd deliver all my post and get back to the sorting room as fast as I could only to be told by the regular postie that I was too quick and I should go off and have a coffee or something as I was making him look bad as he took much longerthen that when he just had regular mail to deliver.
So for the rest of the time I finished my round and then sat in a cafe for an hour...and got paid for it too!
23

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 12/12/2008 08:02:34
Must be the same computer software the eco scientist use to model climate change.

i.e. unrealistic!
24

Brodric,

12/12/2008 08:11:24
For many companies, workers are the means by which to make profit. They are not treated as human beings and work is to be carried out, without thought to job satisfaction.

The Royal Mail are asking a lot of posties They are also consulting a computer on a human issue of endurance and physical ability.

Its disgraceful but it seems that this is the way things are going. And in the UK, we don't get together to change things, just comment on posts like this.

How ever did Marx imagine the revolution would happen in conservative-minded UK?
25

tommy,

belfast uk 12/12/2008 08:30:54
The whole country is being run by donkeybums with degrees in everything except practicality and commonsense
all trying to justify their parasitic existence

26

TREV,

Poland 12/12/2008 08:34:57
#8, since when did Posties need to read? When I lived in Ibrox the local posties couldn't read the difference between Nelson Street and Copland Rd. We regularly got mail from the other address because our number was the same!

I came home one day to find the whole letter box jammed and overflowing... with mail for the other address. The worst thing was, we had a house and the other address was a close.

When I went to the office to complain, and to ask them to check none of my mail had been sent to Nelson St, I was told "It wouldn't be because there is nobody there with your name!"
27

Screaming Blue Murdo,

Hereford 12/12/2008 08:43:13
Using the collected rubber bands as a slingshot, the posties could launch themselves at 400mph between houses. Might make a bit of a mess though
28

Boy Wonder,

12/12/2008 08:43:41
Never mind posties picking up the pace ... the whole of the rotten Royal Mail needs to be RUN much more efficiently!!!
29

itsmeisntit,

I cant get a job so im becoming a postie 12/12/2008 09:00:11
walk at 4mph ? does that include stoppage time for to adjust the ear phones for the phone/ipod

so the postie now needs to think walk faster also listen to music and take a call, read addresses and put letters through a letter box - wow !!

see the complains soar!
30

LochLomond,

Balloch 12/12/2008 09:02:41
[4mph is what a fit person should be aiming for over the distances posties walk on their route.]

I used to do long distance running but due to joint problems I can no longer run, however walking is not a problem. I have a sedentary job and I try to take a long walk of about four to eight miles a couple or more times a week. I aim at four miles an hour and I can achieve it for about four miles then I start to slacken off. Walking at four miles an hour means breathing heavy and really pushing it. It also means working up a sweat. Not many people can do this because it is quite difficult. Doing so while carrying a mailbag is utterly impossible over any distance. To claim that posties should be doing this is disgraceful.

Having said that, it would be easy to settle the argument. Get a few of the rule makers out there with a full mailbag and ask them to demonstrate how it's done!
31

Humphrey,

Eastleigh, UK 12/12/2008 09:04:18
It's all very well to demand that posties should be forced to walk at 4mph, but surely this would depend on the class of mail carried. Those carrying 1st class mail would proceed at the rate of 4mph, but in the case of 2nd class mail then a speed of 2.mph would be acceptable (I assume that these are average speeds).

But how do we check on the required performance? I suggest that the posties be identified by their uniform, ie. red for 1st class mail and blue for 2nd class. These uniforms would then incorporate and ID plate unique for each postie, and this would provide the means of computing the average speed. So how can this be achieved?

The answer is the Doppler radar system. Doppler radars are used by the military to compute the speed of moving targets (I should know as I was involved with them during my working career). These radars could be manufactured in sufficient quantities to assess the average speed of each postie, and the resultant data fed to a central computer system. Each postie would then have his (or her)very own Average Speed Chart (ASC). These Dopplers would be positioned along all the designated routes.

How can the postie keep up to the required speed? I thought about this for about 2 milliseconds, and then came up with the obvious answer. Roller skates. After suitable training, the postie would be skilled in average speeds greater than the demanded 4mph (for 1st class mail), but the 2nd class postie would still be without such assistance.

I had also thought of skateboards, but rejected this as a silly idea, and obviously I did not want to appear frivolous.

One problem with roller skates of course is the present routing of the postie that might involve an uphill gradient. Unless someone invents a motorised roller skate, the only answer to this problem is to organise the route so that the postie always goes downhill.

As for bicycles, these are all very well, but they require constant maintenance and sometimes dangerous t
32

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 12/12/2008 09:09:11
AS A RETIRED POSTIE WITH OVER 25 YEARS SERVICE ALL I CAN SAY IS LET THE MANAGERS SITTING ON THEIR FAT ASS TRY TO GET THE JOB DONE IN TIME REMBERING THE POTSE NOW AS OVER 8 HEAVY BAGS OF MAIL COME RAIN SNOW AND SUN. PS YOU STILL GET THE IDIOT CUSTOMER COMPLAINING MY MAILS WET AS THE POSTIE IS SOAKING COLD AND SHIVERING WITH WET FEET. GIVE THEM A CHRISTMAS TIP .YOU TIP THE BARMAN AND TAXI DONT YOU
33

Humphrey,

12/12/2008 09:10:11
What happened to the rest of my comment? I give up.
34

Buckfastleigh,

12/12/2008 09:26:26
In a metric world our postman still has to walk Miles?
35

Miss H,

12/12/2008 09:26:43
As a leafletter I totally appreciate how difficult the job of a postie is. 4 miles per hour just seems silly to me. I agree with everyone who says the management should give it a go and see how easy it is.

Another issue not mentioned is the difficulty of getting into closes with secure entries. In theory the service button should allow access during set hours without having to buzz individual flat numbers to gain access - but that is in theory.

The other factor for posties I think is the increase in the number of packages they deliver - I would hope this has been taken into account. Ebay, Amazon etc have revolutionised the way many of us shop but it's also made the posties' bags a lot heavier.

Re all the people saying they should get bikes - well they do in areas where housing is spread out. But most people in Scotland live in urban areas. Having a bike would not make things much easier. They would have to find somewhere to park it for a start.
36

jaw,

Edinburgh 12/12/2008 09:59:17
I just think that these so called bosses should firstly try to do this themselves for a week, thenm come back and see if 4mph is correct
37

namedoesntmatter,

Livingston 12/12/2008 10:09:03
#5 hehe. do you know I called the royal mail 0845 number (as my local delivery office number has been ringing out for weeks now) to complain about this, not only one or two, but handfuls of those fecking red rubber bands strewn about my street, I spent 10 mins pressing 1 for this and 2 for that, to be told they could not answer my call at present and to call back! Last week I tried calling my local sorting office for a whole week, ended up having to walk an hour journey in the ice to collect the parcel myself (not at 4pmh I might add, otherwise I might have made it in half an hour), and do you know I was the only one in the office at the time, and the phone was ringing out while the worker sat reading a magazine! My grievances with the Rpyal Mail don't stop there, we have posties who dump special delivery items worth hundreds of pounds on people's doorsteps, openened I might add (passing opportunist or untrustworthy postie??? who knows). Anyway, my point is, I think the only way Royal Mail can manage to employ staff for the deadlines they set for such poor pay, is just to employ any tom dick or harry off the street, without having any consideration for their integrity and trustworthiness, or care for what they're doing, and it's destroying any ounce of faith we ever had in the postal service.
38

Toast,

12/12/2008 10:25:25
#9 I live in a rural community and our post rarely arrives after 10am,like a lot of services our's are more efficient than in cities,everybody knows each other and make a much bigger effort to be efficient and helpful
39

Mise,

Scottish Borders 12/12/2008 10:42:48
#22 and others

Local adverts for posties say that you must be able to cycle with a 25kg sack of mail.

I had often thought of applying for a job until I read that.
40

MikeN,

Edinburgh 12/12/2008 10:43:55
#16 - In Edinburgh (I'm not sure about other areas of Scotland) it is legal for children under the age of 16 (it used to be 12) to cycle on the footpath. However, it's a pretty dangereous activity for them to undertake because they risk being mown down by the many irresponsible adults who ride on the pavement illegally.
41

MileAMinuet,

uk 12/12/2008 11:10:22
Sounds about right, Top Management try to suck every last ounce of blood out of their staff now in an attempt to maximise their yearly bonuses. However While the latest topic is postmen what about other groups that are given unreasonable targets to achieve even though they have been subject to "time analyses" or such like. Ever wondered why buses tend to drive about in the way they do, it's not due to them thinking they are in a touring car race, however it is likely that they are stressing out as they are X amount of minuets later than their timetable states. Now this has far greater ramifications if things go wrong than a postman that is gasping and wheezing.
42

Patrick/Edinburgh,

Here and There 12/12/2008 11:18:24
Hi Folks,

I wanted to read this story as I have wanted to read other news in the Scotsman. But during the past 6 months the online version has been getting worse and worse. It is the most irritating web site I visit. The pop up ads are severe and numerous, I feel like some sort of an experimental test monkey in front of the computer. I have reset blocking pop-ups, but that still doesn’t stop them. These ads have to be part of the Scotsman and they are awful.

I wouldn’t mind paying for quality on-line news service, but the way the content is presented, I doubt its validity these days. I have always found it useful to read and respond in the comments section. But folks, I am concerned that the popups are so pervasive that they might leave damaging scripts to my computer. I investigate Internet Technology and Security, and I am really concerned about visiting this web site.

I am sorry but its just too obvious to ignore.
43

brianmca3,

auld reekie 12/12/2008 11:32:14
have some of the posters every did a posties job?,no well you should try it,what with gestapo like bosses on yer back to get the mail out,and then wanting you to do more when you have done your round
if you worked indoors at the sorting depot like i did,boy do you get youreyes opend ,bullying and sneeky wee runts as bosses,nice to yer face ,but plotting to get rid of you,just because you pointed out that they were in the wrong
union as about as powerful as a sterilised man at a fertility clinic
bah humbug
44

,

12/12/2008 11:42:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
45

hertscot,

12/12/2008 12:39:38
Surely the answer to getting more mail delivered in less time is...employ more posties.
46

Vandala,

12/12/2008 12:41:49
#41. It must be an unusual kind of life to live when one actually has time to ring up Post Offices to complain about rubber bands on the street.
47

brianmca3,

auld reekie 12/12/2008 12:49:17
#41
royal mail does a trace on you when you join ,this is done through the main criminal computer that scotland yard uses
as for opening the parcel,it may have been damaged in the post depot
anything worth hundreds is either sent by courier by company,s or by special delivery ,these items are kept and sorted in a high security part of the sorting depot
but moaning about rubber bands really,you should be supporting the posties or are you a thatcherite who would love to see it privitised so you can get yer greedy mits on shares
48

brianmca3,

auld reekie 12/12/2008 12:57:55
#49
thats what is needed ,but royal mail think nothing of paying an agency nearly £8 an hour and the same agency then pays temps £4 an hour over the xmas period
increase pay and conditions so that you have loads of people looking for work
but mr brown would rather flog it off ,prob thatcher whispering in his ear at those cosy wee meatings they had
49

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

12/12/2008 13:14:55
#47 Brian - people's experience of posties depends very much where they live. Unfortunately my experiences are based on the piss-poor service from Dundee East sorting office where the posties have a habit of being on unofficial strike action on a regular basis. Other posters will have had the opposite with a very good postal service.

The CWU does have an image problem - I have no problem with it standing up for its members rights - but sometimes it just seems to be defending the right of some to be shirkers and skivers.
50

Lianachan,

Highlands 12/12/2008 13:22:43
My postie arrives in a van. One which looks capable of moving in excess of 4 mph, too. Still, it doesn't arrive until late afternoon.

Maybe city posties could use Segways?

(Assuming they become legal, that is!)
51

GlenB,

12/12/2008 13:24:59
I presume this 4mph figure is based on the average time taken to complete a delivery route.

As anyone with a modicum of understanding knows an average takes in all the variations above and below this figure.

Does this 4mph target mean that at times the postie must travel at higher speeds to compensate for the static times waiting for doors to be opened, stopping to open gates etc.

If a postie can average 2.4mph for his route he is doing very well because at times he will have to have been walking much faster to achieve that.
52

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/12/2008 13:51:54
48 Vincent-W

I am surprised you didn't get into a fit of rage at me about my posting @ 15.

Good man. Keep up the good work and your postings are always "interesting".
53

MikeN,

Edinburgh 12/12/2008 13:59:33
#46 - I never get any 'pop-ups' on the Scotsman or EEN sites. I'm using Opera 9.62 set to 'block unwanted pop-ups'. It works fine. I've used Opera for several years and it blocks the lot on every website I visit.
54

Shug,

12/12/2008 15:04:49
A lot of spin going on from the postal union. Christmas is approaching and this is the unions flexing their muscles a bit. The postal union is one of the most hardline unions around. Like most stories there will be elements of truth, no doubt some managers are pushing the posties to go faster than is reasonable. On the other hand some posties are lazy work to rule types who will down tools on the dot rather than take an extra 15 minutes to finish their round.
55

OLD GIN,

METHIL LEVEN 12/12/2008 15:21:40
SHUG No 58 try the job and you will see why most posties are piss** off with the management. MOST IDEAS PUSHED THROUGH FROM PEOPLE NEVER SORTED OR DELIVERD A LETTER IN THEIR LIFE. IT WORKS ON THE COMPUTOR SO IT MUST WORK .
TRY THE WORK AND YOU WILL SEE WHY MANY ARE PISS** OFF.
TO WALK OUT IS HARD I HAVE IN LEVEN AND WE WON EVERY TIME.
56

Joe Macdelta.,

12/12/2008 16:05:35
Having worked for the Royal Mail in the past I am not surprised, the management in the office I worked from was full of ideas like this, the are good at shuffling paper but not much else, the posties themselves are good hard working men in general handicapped by poor managers.
57

jerrymanders,

12/12/2008 16:10:38
#60

What about the female posties?!
58

Phil the Flooter,

12/12/2008 17:55:46
Computer says ... No.....

COUGH..
59

Joe Macdelta.,

12/12/2008 18:31:39
#60 I stand corrected and apologies profusely, I should have said posties are good hard working persons, please except my humble apologies, but the remarks on management remains the same.
60

grannie,

Glasgow 12/12/2008 18:55:30
Wait for a really frosty morning or snow and send the managers themselves out with a stop watch and a heavy post bag. Let them prove how easy it is.
61

Buckfastleigh,

Bootle 12/12/2008 21:03:41
#38 walking Miles; of course the Postie walks in Miles why else? should he not walk in Feet?

If a metric computer is inept and cannot understand the peculiar English measurements involved we should demand the PO purchase special 1000mm boots and remeasure the role. Only after this recalibration will be able to issue new instruction that everyone can understand.
62

Brisbane Jambo,

13/12/2008 07:15:12
#34.... Joint Problems...hotrocks?? Say no more

 

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