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Court papers full of errors due to difficulties with Scottish accent

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Published Date: 12 May 2008
By Kizzy Taylor
COURT cases could be thrown into chaos because workers employed to take notes can't understand the Scots accent, it was claimed yesterday.
Leading lawyers have complained that official court papers are littered with mistakes because English stenographers are baffled by names and language used north of the Border.

They said Scottish names such as Barlinnie have been wrongly transcribed as "Barrel Annie" and that words such as "libelled" and "fanciful" have been replaced with "liable" and "fanciable".

It was claimed the mistakes and omissions could affect the outcome of appeals and lawyers have complained to Scotland's Lord Advocate Eilish Angiolini.

Donald Findlay QC said: "The transcriptions are bloody awful. There are clearly problems (understanding] the accent. There are bits that are either missing or plainly wrong.

"They know nothing of the local topography, which leads to some amazing phonetic translations of places. I would have thought it's not beyond the wit of man to check place names on the internet."

Gordon Jackson QC, the former Labour MSP for Glasgow Govan, said: "I have heard judges make disparaging remarks about the quality of work."

Gerry Considine, vice-chairman of the Glasgow Bar Association, added: "There's a lot of disquiet about the mistakes being made. It appears they can't make out the accents."

Legal workers said problems began when the Scottish Court service awarded the work to Devon-based Mendip Media Group in 2006.

Mendip admitted there had been problems but blamed the mistakes on the "atrocious" quality of the recordings being taken in court, but said transcribers based in Scotland had been hired to avoid problems understanding the dialect.

A Scottish Courts Service spokeswoman said: "We are upgrading our recording equipment to improve the quality of recordings, but there are still some quality issues regarding tape transcriptions and these are being addressed with Mendip."


Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 11 May 2008 9:06 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Legal Issues
 
1

One-man-bucket's older twin,

Ankh-Morpork of the North 12/05/2008 00:39:20
Anybody who uses subtitles on TV must wonder if the people working on news programmes have English as their first language - or maybe they run a book on who can slip the most outrageous obscenity onscreen. So this doesn't surprise me. However, I suspect Geordies and Yorkshire folk, and maybe Brummies, Liverpudlians and those living in the extreme south-west may have the same problems.
2

Rob - Honest Toun,

12/05/2008 00:42:00
The easy wey oot o this is tae employ local fowk that's bi-lingual in English an Scots.

Aither that or pit the fowk they've got the noo throu a Scots language lairnin coorse.

Contack Http://www.scotslanguage.com for guidance.
3

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 12/05/2008 01:10:03
And who was responsible for out sourcing the work ?

Let me guess........

The party that is bleating about Union dividends and hungry caterpillars ?
4

Abel Magwitch,

12/05/2008 01:19:32
Professor Higgins, where are you when we need you?
5

Scullion,

Canada 12/05/2008 01:53:53
This only proves my point that all legal matters should be recorded in interpretive dance, "M'lawd, allow me to hula my objections."
6

Thorson ,

Peterborough , Canada 12/05/2008 01:58:03
I never have any difficulty in understanding the precise English spoken by native Gaelic speakers - so my recommendation would be for Scotland to become bilingual ( English/Gaelic).

Some Scottish accents bear no relationship to auld Scots ( i.e auld English ) but very badly pronounced standard English.
As far as teaching Scots is concerned there's no standard language. e.g fit you daen in Aiberdeen and whit ye daen in Fa'kirk.
Otherwise elocution lessons in English need to be given at all Scottish Schools.


7

An Beal Bacht,

12/05/2008 02:26:23
I think number six should haud his wheesht. Employ Scots - simple really.
8

,

12/05/2008 03:21:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

Helene,

Ontario Canada 12/05/2008 04:09:19
A lack of basic general knowledge is part of the reason and yes, intelligent use of the internet would clear up a lot of confusion about place names. Court note-takers should be well educated. It's a highly responsible job.
10

Mallory,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 04:12:45
A simple solution - mike up all including the lawyers, witnesses and especially judges and sheriffs.

Tape record ALL court cases in criminal and civil cases and make the record publicly available.

It would then be much harder to 'forget' or 'misplace' testimony.
11

The Pict.,

12/05/2008 04:18:16
The Scottish words are NOT pronounced with any accent. They are SCOTTISH words period and all foreigners should be required to take lessons so they can understand. Scots and English have the same root. LOW GERMAN.
12

somerferg,

Perth 12/05/2008 04:32:15

EMPLOY SCOTS
13

Pilrig.,

Livingston 12/05/2008 05:56:46
6 - one solution is tae become TRILINGUAL, the other is employ SCOTS.
14

,

12/05/2008 07:02:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

Sonare,

12/05/2008 07:07:14
#11

On a point of information, I was under the impression that there is not such a language as Low, or High, German. There is only the German language. Have we been misled on this by those in government as we seem to have been on other key topics like - Independence for our language....
16

Rankbadyin,

Palmerston North 12/05/2008 07:10:59
Those who suggest that any dialect should be suppressed should consider how thay might feel if people from some supposedly "superior" culture proposed that they should be re-educated! How about all English speakers (REAL English speakers!)being required to be proficient in American usage? We should all be proud of our diverse verbal traditions and nurture them as a valuable part of our heritage. There is evidence of pride and practicality in these other "Low German" dialects: Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans. No edicts from any supposedly "superior" cultures should be permitted to deprecate the culture of others.
17

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:45:03
Ah........so good to see the chippy Scots out in force again, defending their guttersnipe Scots 'language'.

All part of the Great Conspiracy against the poor Scots, of course.

18

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 07:46:53
Given that these folk charge something extortionate like £30 a page for transcriptions, surely it would be more economical to hire a proper stenographer, than record and farm out to a company in Devon. I'm only surprised their not based in Mumbai.
19

Independence? Bring it On!,

12/05/2008 07:49:31
#17 Golly gosh Hermitage you must be a popular fellow with such views. Aren't you running late for school?
20

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 07:55:30
## 20 ##

'Running late for school'


Sorry to disappoint you but it is 40 years since I left school.
21

Nook,

Purley 12/05/2008 08:18:22
#21 Hermitage

Ye'll be 45 this year then? Happy birthday!
22

Iain's,

12/05/2008 08:20:22
I once complained about a legal report prepared by a Ghanian, who obviously could not understand the mildest Scottish accent.
Next thing I knew, I was being accused of racial predudice!
The people running our criminal justice system are ill educated and only culturally aware if you are a foreigner.

23

thinking,

Scotland 12/05/2008 08:29:43
All areas of the UK have their own dialect, not just Scotland, that, on the whole, can only be understood fully by someone from that area.
This, surely, is why standard English used to be taught so that everyone could understand.
I don't know if it is still the case, but Inverness used to be known for it's correct English speaking.
Mind you, dialect is no excuse for much of the slovenly speech used these days
24

LesD,

Kirkcaldy 12/05/2008 08:34:24
For once AM2 I actually agree with you.

If these people cannot understand Scots langauge or dialect then they should be retrained. Since the Scotman is supposdely a Scots paper, I wonder how many place names and words from Tyneside are misconstrued or Northern Ireland for that matter.

Seems to me to copany is not up to the job and the contract should be passed to someone else.

Cheer
Les
25

Friend-at-large,

USA 12/05/2008 08:40:57
Medical transcriptionists could be recruited for this occupation as they have a lot of experience listening to doctors from other countries.

Most word processing programs allow the individual to create a dictionary of special words. This would be useful for place names. Quality is paramount in such a line of work. I wish you all success.
26

Manxman,

Doolish 12/05/2008 09:26:12
Unfair, even if it is PC, to outsource this type of work. In general, the standards of both English and Scots in Scotland is just as low as the terrible standard of English in England - and I don't mean the accent, or usage of dialect - I mean basic grammar and diction. Isn't it ironic that Welsh and Gaelic speakers are the best speakers of English.
27

Boy Wonder,

12/05/2008 09:30:11
Make thum read Oor Wullie n The Broons!!! That's how maist bairns furst learn tae write thur ain lingo!!!

Then get intae Burns ... naw that disnae mean pit oan yir swimmin togs ... ah mean READ THE BARD!!
28

cabrach loon,

Inverness 12/05/2008 09:40:16
A miracle it wisnae ootsoorced tae Bombay! Outsourcing to Devon which has its own dialect - Fpor God's sake pure bad economics!
Whomsoever made the deal should be fired either for incompetence or getting backhanders - or both! Why else send it out of Scotland?
29

the fat knackered Aussie chef who only body surfs,

dicky beach 12/05/2008 09:44:33
I worked in Inverness for quite a few years and understand most of the dialect spoken in the beautiful country, but my poor wife can't cope. Any Scots TV show needs a translation.

It is shameful that the court service can't provide people at least somewhat familiar with the various dialects.
30

Horrible Cankers at the Cyber Shebeen,

12/05/2008 09:52:32
Ha hah hah hah hah..."Barrel Annie"....wonderful.
31

Guga II,

Rockall 12/05/2008 09:54:13
#18 AM Squared.

Firstly sunshine, I am not a member of the SNP, or any other political party. That way I can be free to criticise any or all of them.

Secondly, I note you are showing us, once again, how inordinately fond of the English you really are. That is very strange for an Irishman, which I am sure you would agree. Incidentally, do you think the Irish courts would employ foreigners as court stenographers?

One other point while I remember, I note you now give your location as "Scotland, YUK", like a good little Unionist. You used to tell us you live in Glasgow, but someone mentioned that you actually live in New Cut Riggs, Edinburgh. So, which is it?
32

Scottie,

South Africa 12/05/2008 09:57:21
15 There is a 'hoch' German, it's the formal language that's used in good newspapers and in news broadcasts, and has nowt to do with accents.

Why are people who can't understand employed in the first place? Employ locals for goodness sake!
33

Alec in Chicago,

Chicago 12/05/2008 10:00:18
I'm trying to construct a sentence that remains logical when 'liable' is substituted for 'libelled.'

"I was liable by that reporter"?

"The defendent liable my client in an article..."?

A real hoot (here) is to switch on the closed captions while watching a program from the UK. They have to be done by Americans who've never heard any English usage that wouldn't be familiar to an American fifth-grader. It seems that idioms are particularly troublesome.

Whatever the problem, they often end up writing sentences that are not logical. Perhaps they ought to read what they write - if they can. (How are overall literacy levels there? Over here they are astoundingly low. I read that user's manuals are now being written at the sixth grade level.)

It isn't accent: American films don't fare much better.

* (Just in case: fifth grade: 10-11 years of age; sixth grade: 11-12 years. Your forms have always been a mystery to me.)
34

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:06:06
One has to question the intellect of the stenographers.
35

I should be studying,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:17:15
Dear #39 and other small minded people...
I'd never seen a stenographer in action until recently at a conference. It's a job that demands huge amounts of concentration, speed and the ability to transcribe using correct grammar and spelling. Obviously people make mistakes and it makes me sad to see all the chippy comments here from people who, I bet, couldn't concentrate for more than 5 minutes reading a paper whilst having a s*it. I'm sure if a Scottish stenographer was working in a court in Devon they might make a few mistakes too.
36

Jinty,

England ex pat 12/05/2008 10:32:27
Some one has realised that genealogy researchers have a problem with transcribing poor interpretation, or translations of past Census Convenors, and those who make errors in putting the contents of micro fiche onto paper.
Maybe the Scottish Lord Advocate can call for an Order that stenographers errors can be corrected for location and other errors of that nature, after the event.
37

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:36:37
Stenographer? Not a recognised term in Scottish courts. Criminal cases are recorded on tape and transcribed, unfortunately, by transcribers based in England. Civil cases are recorded in shorthand, but Scottish shorthand writers, and transcribed by the writer who heard the evidence being give. Since the problems seem to lie mainly with the standards in the criiminal courts, I would have thought the solution was staring everyone in the face....
38

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:37:56
Sorry - not 'but Scottish shorthand writers' - should have said 'by'
39

Curious Yellow,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 10:38:49
Stenographer? Not a recognised term in Scottish courts. Criminal cases are recorded on tape and transcribed, unfortunately, by transcribers based in England. Civil cases are recorded in shorthand, by Scottish shorthand writers, and transcribed by the writer who heard the evidence being given. Since the problems seem to lie mainly with the standards in the criminal courts, I would have thought the solution was staring everyone in the face....
40

Aeternum Vale,

Wellingborough 12/05/2008 11:00:08
But this excuse cannot work for Gordon Brown, surely he must understand everything Scotland's people are saying.
41

Teofilio Cubillas,

12/05/2008 11:30:27
I was born and brought up in Edinburgh but even I can't understand the scheme-dwelling halfwitted dross who clutter up the pavements outside the Sheriff Court in Chambers Street, smoking and texting while waiting for their cases to be called. Apart from mumbling the word 'f#ck' constantly, they seem to have developed a curious habit of ending each sentence with the word, 'eh?'.
There is a classic (no doubt apocryphal) Donald Findlay story about a Glaswegian ned who, standing trial for murder at the High Court, explained that he had gone round to the deceased's flat for a 'tap'. "Please explain to the jury", said the judge, "what you mean by a 'tap'. Do you mean a kitchen appliance?". Findlay stands up and says, smugly, "My Lord, a 'tap' is a Glaswegian colloquialism for a loan of money". "Naw" the accused interjects, "a tap!, a CELTIC tap"....
42

Copper,

Falkirk 12/05/2008 11:30:30
You are all missing the usual reason why the Liebor party does anything

WHO GOT THE BROWN ENVELOPE ??

Our past Minister for Injustice probably
The one who thinks Unreliable is a good prison company

This reason exlains every contract awarded by these self seeking Blackguards
43

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 11:31:36
#41:

A stenographer's job requires skill and practice, Although it is far from being rocket science.

No. I maybe would not be able to do the job straight off, it would take time and training. As a result I would not attempt to do the job straight off.

That doesn't excuse the number of mistakes being made though. Clearly, a dose of salts needs to go through some (not all) stenographers and get them to get their acts together. It is their job after all, and if they are being paid for it, they should be able to do it properly.
44

eric,

lothian 12/05/2008 11:34:01
A ken,Nae wonda the law society moved tae glesca.
45

ZenBroon,

Glesca 12/05/2008 11:53:31
The problem is simply the perpetual one of high-heidyins dismissing Scots as a 'dialect' or an 'accent'.
46

Alberto.,

12/05/2008 12:00:03
Surely the answer - to correct the situation is quite simple!

Someone, possibly many someone’s, needs to be told 'You're Fired!'

But who, in the current make up of our bureaucracy, and it's dogmatic PC ways - regardless, will have the guts in our current crazy society, and poor Government we are persevering - will have the courage to utter such a threat! Not a ‘jobsworth’ - I bet!

The blame for this problem must obviously lie at the door of the 'so-called' management who opt for and agree the employment of these people who, obviously, are not qualified for the task in hand!

Could it be that such employment arrangements are based on the style of nepotism / doing a friend a favour - which I feel sure these days, from what we read, seems to be an acceptable way of ‘arranging’ such matters!

I sincerely hope not, and those who may be involved in such a system, should see, by the experience of some of the Government ‘appointments’ using this method - it is a great folly,mostly a failure and extremely costly - in many ways!

Saying these ‘Stenographers’ (Typists!) don’t understand the language - or accents, is no excuse. Surely the whole purpose of what they are employed to do is just that - or is it the bureaucratic, ethical and PC employment 'Targets' thing getting in the way, and over-riding the real purpose of having 'employees' - getting the job done right, and properly, by qualified people - or else!

I don't know if asking the 'Speakers' to 'shout louder' will help - I see many people, in Europe, still exercising this method of getting people to understand them, even still in these days, regardless of the well advertised lack of success over many years!

Then there’s the spelling problem - now that’s entirely another ‘kettle of fish’ (or should that be ‘cetl ov phish?’) Many words as spoken can have differing meanings depending on their spelling, but only by seeing them written can this be solved, spelt wrongly to give another meaning entire
47

Alberto.,

12/05/2008 12:02:24
#54 Cont'd....

Many words as spoken can have differing meanings depending on their spelling, but only by seeing them written can this be solved, spelt wrongly to give another meaning entirely, can create havoc - but how is one to know if their spelling is a problem - as with many it appears to be so!

UR’s Sinseerli - but you know what I mean - I ope!

48

I should be studying,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 12:13:52
#50. I agree, at the end of the day, they're still doing a job and getting paid for it, so they should minimise their mistakes. It's just the constant whinging on these forums that tire me; posters acting as it it's an English conspiracy...how dare folks in Devon transcribe Scottish court proceedings! It just seems to be an excuse for "Union" bashing when it really is irrelevant to the topic.
49

Miss Pixie,

12/05/2008 12:19:12
#14; not all "American morons" are equal!

When I moved to the scottish borders (near Hawick) I thought I'd never acquire an ear for Scots but it wasn't too long until I could understand Hawick's local dialect.I have conquered Glaswegian as well. I am one of the few Americans who didn't need sub-titles for Trainspotters.

Get this; as much as I wanted to acquire a Scottish accent I never did.
50

macca,

Asia 12/05/2008 12:28:12
Been out off Scotland for 30 years with no change of accent, one must have empathy with the subject matter.
listening is a art, for us all. whether born in a housing scheme or a fine Edinburgh dwelling we are flesh and blood, accent is rich whether slang or Inverness special.
The court staff should read Para Handy by Neil Munro, Yere daein fine captain , Macphails jist chawed because he canna get readin :-) a proud scot
51

TA1,

Perth 12/05/2008 12:31:21
Reading much of these comments you would think that local dialects are confined to Scotland. What about Somerset, Yorkshire, Liverpool, Birmingham etc or even the strangulated vowels of the South East of England? Up here we are supposed to have an inherent understanding of all these and watch/listen to TV programmes unaided while those in the aforementioned parts seem to think they need subtitles. Or is it just those in the south east that think we should all talk like them and those that don't are "common"? This despite their dropping letters from the end of words and adding others in that don't exist.
52

Calum Crubag,

12/05/2008 12:50:19
#6 - Correct. Gaelic kids, like Welsh kids in Wales and now the Irish Gaels, have been proven to attain better in English than their monoglot counterparts. Prof Richard Johnstone's from Stirling Uni on GME attainment makes interesting reading.

Bilingualism better develops the brain.

Even if only for better linguistic skills in English and other languages, Gaelic medium education makes sense. It also means the kids can make more sense of Scotland. How many non-Gaels can pronounce or understand most of our placnames, north or south?
53

Suzi B,

12/05/2008 13:16:16
I don't have a problem with anyones accent but I can't stand people writing in the Scotsman with their pseudo Scots Scottie-speak. Nothing is as irritating as people giving us the benefit of their 'Oor Wullie' dialogue. We all speak with our own accents and have curious words that make it into our conversation but we all learned to write English at school so writing in English would have to be easier than sitting at your computer trying to make up the right spellings for your Scottie words!
54

ZenBroon,

12/05/2008 13:28:44
#60 "Bilingualism better develops the brain."
There's really no argument about this. It is tragic that we don't make better use of the linguistic richness of Scotland. There should be more Gaelic and Scots used throughout education. When Scottish people cannot pronounce the placenames of their own country(not just Gaelic but "Lock Lomond", "Suckiehall St" etc) something has gone badly wrong.
55

ZenBroon,

Glesca 12/05/2008 13:33:08
#62 "Nothing is as irritating as people giving us the benefit of their 'Oor Wullie' dialogue." Let me assure you, people proud of their own ignorance is much, much more irritating.
56

eilidhcatriona,

An Aberdonian in London 12/05/2008 13:35:22
The bottom line in this debate is, if they can't do the job, they shouldn't be doing it - and surely understanding the locals is a rather important job requirement here?

I'm by no means racist, but I believe that for any job that has an emphasis on verbal communication, the person doing that job must be able to both understand and be understood in the language the job is carried out in. In this case, that means Scots - if they can't understand it, they can't do their job. Surely there are plenty of people who can do this job.

#62 Scots isn't an accent, it's a dialect or language, and therefore has written forms - albeit with regional variations. It's everyone's choice whether to use English or Scots here, as I'd imagine we can all read both!
57

fife runner,

12/05/2008 13:37:09
how many Scots know the topography of their own country. met one who thought Iona was a Greek island
58

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/05/2008 13:46:50
17 Hermitage

Since you are a mature person then GROW UP, YOU PUERILE NUMPTIE!

It is thee that is the "guttersnipe" and not the Scots language/dialect and accent.

Horrible Cankers @ 35

Good morning, madam.

Who IS "Barrel Annie" or is this an "in" Scots joke or reference to entity known only to yourself and a select group of like-minded Scots?

Hire, for God's sake, educated and linguistically-gifted Scots court reporters. There must be oodles of them out there and stop employing "foreign" English reporters who can't distinguish words.

Have they never been to the East End of London? The accents and word usages there are practically impenetrable to those not born there or have an ear for dialects and accents and strange words and sentence structure.

I was there a few times on a pub crawl and it was certainly an eye-opener for me. Almost as impenetrable as the "jouale" Franglais used by Quebeckers in Canada.

Do tell.
59

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 14:27:32
## 67 ##

You are the 'PUERILE NUMPTIE' if all you can do is resport to childish name-calling.

'Is is thee that......'

You are obviously uneducated as you appear to be unable to string a sentence together correctly.

But then, perhaps you missed out on a quality education in Canada? On the other hand, perhaps you were 'educated' in Scotland. That would explain a great deal.
60

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/05/2008 14:38:35
67 Hermitage Asylum

For your information Canada has plenty of world-recognised universities such as McGill, University of Saskatchewan, University of Toronto, University of Ottawa (second largest bilingual (French and English) university in the world, etc.

Since I grew up in Durham I was partially educated at the university there and then went to Cambridge ON SCHOLARSHIP for my Doctorates, you presumptuous twit.

So keep your insults to yourself and crawl back into your backwater hovel.
61

Suzi B,

12/05/2008 14:42:20
#64. Mmmhm, would that be ZenBroon frae Glesca or ZenBroon fae Glesgae? Jings, crivens helpmaboab ah cannae quite decide, but ahm sure it dissnae make 'es ignorant since ah seem tae be able tae speak both weys. Well, there ye go then, ahm aboot tae be inducted intae the hall o' Scottie speak.
And #65, Scottish people do speak with accents, we also have different dialects, and also a language-Gaelic. Now, even though it would alienate a large percentage of the Scottish readers here if someone did it, I would rather see Gaelic written here than Scottie speak, which isn't the same at all as a person speaking their own dialect or accent, as can be seen by the fact that my Scottie-speak above was actually a mixture of at least two regional variations. In an English language newspaper where the readers clearly understand the written form as it is presented, to respond in 'Scottie-speak' is a bit pretentious. The people who use it, are using it to make a point about being proud to be Scottish, which is fair enough, but please, lets not pretend that they always write like that.
62

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/05/2008 14:56:17
67 Hermitage Nuthouse

Forgot to add my motto:

In Defeat,Defiant. In Victory, Venomous.

Cette devise est construe pour ignomineux imposteurs comme vous. Comprenez-vous, Monsieur Sans Raison (d'etre?)?.
63

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 12/05/2008 15:44:30
Scots can only do Scottish jobs.
It is a given that Scots Law is conducted in Scotland.

Do you employ some one who is French to sing a traditional Irish Song?
64

DMF,

Minneapolis 12/05/2008 15:47:40
#14:
CASEY PURVIS, WEST HILLS 12/05/2008 07:02:33 wrote:
"....or do you have morons from america who will want everyone to change the way the talk.
casey purvis
in america"

PLEASE go back, Casey. If you don't like it here, leave. Go earn your living in your own country. [Good luck]. Perhaps you could learn to write in that awful "phonetic Scots" that some posters here seem to find so appealing.
65

Hermitage,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 16:01:37
##69## and ##71##


So you say.

'They say. What say they. Let them say'

I do not have to believe a word you say, neither do I have to care as to whether or not what you say is true.

Go back to your infantile name-calling.
66

Roy Forrester,

Bloomsburg USA 12/05/2008 16:10:04
Another great argument against "outsourcing"
67

Saul Tyre,

Germany 12/05/2008 16:41:19
#15 The official language in Germany is Hochdeutsch (High German) which originated in the mountainous south. In the plains of the north many still speak Plattdeutsch (Low German), which has many similarities to English.
68

ZenBroon,

Glesca 12/05/2008 17:12:35
#64. "Mmmhm, would that be ZenBroon frae Glesca or ZenBroon fae Glesgae? Jings, crivens helpmaboab ah cannae quite decide, but ahm sure it dissnae make 'es ignorant since ah seem tae be able tae speak both weys. Well, there ye go then, ahm aboot tae be inducted intae the hall o' Scottie speak."

Keep working on it, you'll get there. Any native speaker can learn to write Scots quite quickly. The spelling stushies are mostly long past and it's quite standardised, though people also use local forms. If you want to learn, rather than mock, there is lots of stuff on the web, dictionaries, grammars etc, just like any other language.
69

ultravires,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:18:34
Ard Righ - by far the sanest comment above.

Perhaps the SCS should now also review their award of the 2006 contract to Mendip Media Group or someone should look into that further?
70

Truely English,

12/05/2008 17:35:53
After reading some of the items here and spending time in Newcastle it seems obvious that the Scots Dialect/Language of English is very similar to the Geordie. Naturally, the accent will differ slightly as do all Dialects of English, whichever part of Britain one is from.

Keep up the good work, as English in all its various forms should be preserved for generations to come.
71

cataibh,

Bo'ness 12/05/2008 17:43:38
#73 Spot on.
72

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:44:45
Is that the same Donald Findlay who some time ago was up to his knees in Catholic blood? Phoblacht na Alba go brugh.Now work that one out,orange Donald!
73

Alba Abú,

Edinburgh 12/05/2008 17:47:54
#72 Excellent post!
74

David Ban,

04620 Vera 12/05/2008 17:55:50
Employ Scots folk to write up the court records.
75

Schot,

12/05/2008 18:21:03
Conversely, it should be incumbent on a Sheriff and a lawyer to speak to be understood by everyone in the court.

I saw a sheriff theaten to imprison a court-appointed foreign translator if he was asked to repeat himself again. This would have contributed to a mistrial since the defendant wouldn't have know what was being said. The sheriff was so furious with the defendant from the start that he was spitting his words out incoherently and gave every impression of being drunk.

Most of the problems with our judiciary are north of the border.
76

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 12/05/2008 18:24:25
75 Hermitage

Right back at ya! Looks like you have admitted ignominious defeat.
77

John Blackley,

Florida 12/05/2008 18:40:07
#65 eilidhcatriona, I agree with what you say about the demands of the job requiring someone with the appropriate language skills. I'd no more hire an English court recorder with no understanding of any Scots dialect than I would hire an American one.

Don't agree with your comment about the Scots dialect being "everyone's choice whether to use English or Scots here, as I'd imagine we can all read both!" I find some of the attempts to write 'Scots' here frankly hilarious and often translate the use of the dialect in spoken form as being laziness and in written form as being showing-off.
78

John Blackley,

Florida 12/05/2008 19:28:29
#89 Jock Wilson, thank you for responding to my comment.

I should emphasise that what I wrote about the Scots dialect is my opinion only and based on the effect on me produced by hearing it and reading attempts to write it.

I use the word 'dialect' to mean (from the dictionary): a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language
79

pwd,

Borders 12/05/2008 19:29:13
There's not much wrong with any accent in Britain providing what is being spoken bears some relationship to standard English. What might be a problem is the lazy and sloppy speech which has proliferated this last few years. Some of it is little better than mumbled gibberish and part of the problem is the paucity of thought which goes into any utterance. If thought processes are bereft of clarity what comes out is unlikely to be coherent.
80

,

12/05/2008 19:59:05
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81

John Blackley,

Florida 12/05/2008 20:25:41
#92 Jock Wilson said, "the old words have almost entirely died out and are unknown to the young".

I agree. I am fortunate that, for much of my life, I had a very-much-older friend who hailed from my part of the country and she would quiz me regularly on my knowledge of the old words.

The only downside was she was an ex-ward sister from her nursing days so my failures would produce the most scathing comebacks.
82

Ileach,

12/05/2008 21:01:06
#15 - unless someone else has educated you by now, there is no "low" German, but there is definitely high German - the German Language, as you so correctly claim. However, as all nations, the Germans, too, have accents to where a southerner could not communicate with a northerner (even if he wanted to, which is questionable) unless they both used the High German.
On the subject - hire Scots to do the transcription. What could be easier? Don't outsource your transcriptions to India, either (as my firm has just done). The results are truly horrible!
83

yoric,

12/05/2008 21:04:58
Manchester United manager Alex Ferguson has been in England for what 20 years, and i can honestly say that as an Englishman i cannot tell a word he says.

What thats phrase about two nations seperated by a common language.
84

John Blackley,

Florida 12/05/2008 21:15:02
#97 yoric - describing England and America. Usually attributed to G.B. Shaw.
85

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 21:34:27
There seems to be confusion between lingustic construction and specific words and accent. In Scots i have a wealth of expression not available in english. it is not an accent it is more than that.

But to get to point, i lived in london for some time (never known so amny rude tight fisted folk in my life) and no matter how mush you modify your speah the southerners seem intent on not understanding it. Yet i have friends from the borders, shetland, orkney and the western isles and we can all communicate easily. I conclude that the understanding of others is not a scottish problem.
86

Kitti Kat,

Newtown Square 12/05/2008 21:39:32
train and hire more court stenographers who are Scots.Perhaps if natives were given the jobs and training, things would improve in the court system. I live in the northeastern United STates and all of my father's family are from Georgia, South CArolina, etc. etc. It is extremely difficult to understand them due to that southern accent so in a way I can relate to the English stenos not getting the Scots accent.
87

ZenBroon,

Glesca 12/05/2008 22:21:12
101 I would be interested in your 'wealth of expression not available in English' Can you give examples of this as I cannot begin to understand what they might be?

Yer bum's oot the windae, bawheid.
88

Suzi B,

12/05/2008 22:38:07
#78 ZenBroon.
Forgive me, but I don't think I want to actively learn to write in 'Scots'. I think the only person who managed to use a Scots dialect to write beautifully was Robert Burns, and that was because he was a lyricist as well as a poet, and he really had a genius with language, whether he was using Scots dialect or English. For me, written Scots in anyone elses hands is jarring to read, and especially peoples clumsy attempts on the pages of the Scotsman.
89

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 12/05/2008 22:42:36
Hing oan, it's gaw git war noo wer multicultural! Wheys idea wis this onywway. we hiv fowk int east neuk whaw dinna spic oany english at aw, bit manage tae get ay job, bit by god can they no hauf coont english bloody bawbees!
90

Saoghal Beag,

12/05/2008 22:45:10
Suzi B, that just shows your lack of education and apprecaiation of the wealth of other writers who expresed themselves in Scots.

Jock Tamson, ur ae no a scunner thit wid gie a body the dry boak. a ken masel thit i can sae mare i a pickle wurds tae mae kith an kin that folk frae ither airts dinnae foo'y unnnerstan. tae cry Scots is nae sic thit it gaes folk thit is jist keich.
91

Enster Buddy,

Anstruther 12/05/2008 22:45:42
101 it means yer erse is oot of the window, ye neepheed!
92

An Beal Bacht,

12/05/2008 23:17:37
18 AM2, Scotland,UK 12/05/2008 07:46:34 wrote:

"But to the SNP types (Guga, Somerferg etc) who see English people as “foreigners” and advance the trite solution “employ Scots”, I should point out that employing people on the basis of their being Scottish, English etc is illegal."

But then goes on to prove their case:

"The precedent is BBC Scotland v Souster [2001] IRLR 150, Court of Session (Inner House), which essentially ruled that the Race Relations Act 1976 applies to job discrimination between Scots and English."

Aye - AM2 thinks it's trite to even suggest hiring Scots. What kind of a planet are we living on when we can't even hire our own people as court stenographers but have to hire foreigners who can't speak our language?
93

Manxman,

Doolish 12/05/2008 23:30:50
99 - understand your 'little world' easy enough -

The transcripts were in English. Scots is difficult for we foreigners. Scottish accented English shouldn't be any trouble - except to English speakers who don't want to understand, but no way non- Scots speakers should have got this work.
94

Suzi B,

12/05/2008 23:32:28
'Jock Tamson, ur ae no a scunner thit wid gie a body the dry boak. a ken masel thit i can sae mare i a pickle wurds tae mae kith an kin that folk frae ither airts dinnae foo'y unnnerstan. tae cry Scots is nae sic thit it gaes folk thit is jist keich.'

And that ISN'T jarring to read? Hardly a good example of beautiful use of the Scots language. Dry boak and keich, indded.
95

grannie,

Glasgow 13/05/2008 00:16:30
I've heard newsreaders say Grenock for GREENock and LOCK for LOCH. Beats me how English readers can pronounce,these words wrong. Would seem logical, if it's such a problem, to have all Scots courts transcriptions done in Scotland. Indian call centres seem to manage the Scots accent extremely well and yet our English neighbours have this problem Why? Is it perhaps because its non English speaking workers in their offices?
96

2Right,

On Location 13/05/2008 02:40:48
Apparently everything is supposed to be recorded in our courts but in reality we all know it doesn't happen or at least we cannot get access to important documents when required and even when a recording is available it comes with a very high price tag designed to put the "Appellants off"
Either that or we are told the documents do not exist.
Make all recordings and appeal court decisions available at reasonable prices and do not price justice out the window.
97

Saoghal Beag,

13/05/2008 07:24:48
Suzi B, you are simply a snob
98

Alberto.,

13/05/2008 13:11:25
Wouldn't life be boring and dull if we all spoke one language, without any accents or dialects whatsoever!

Surely dialects and accents are what keep the 'spoken'language alive and interesting! The written word, if trying to indicate accent / dialect is another 'cup o'tea' - and then there's spelling for dialects etc. - a worry for many in any language, and getting it wrong can give rise to much confusion and mis-understanding!

Of course, speaking in any language and making your self understood is the main thing. No matter how one favours 'any language in order simply for it to be kept alive' - regardless of cost and / or incovenience to others, seems some what pointless as the whole meaning of language surely is for 'communicating' with others (shouting loud don't work, and can be a dam tad annoying when they don't respond after ones efforts!

Then there is the matter of 'knowing' what has been said, and 'what is really meant' - and understanding both aspects, similar to the language of Politics - and look at the problems that brings on - almost everywhere!!!
99

Truely English,

13/05/2008 13:35:02
114
One language English is all that is needed.
100

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13/05/2008 15:53:56
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101

,

13/05/2008 15:57:50
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102

Suzi B,

13/05/2008 16:12:02
#113
Snobbery is something I haven't been accused of often but if you think that my opinion that written 'Scots' is not a language I want to cultivate, so be it. However, spoken Scots, in whatever dialect, is interesting and has a cultural richness and I have no snobbery about that-that's what identifies where people come from. I don't think it is snobbish to say that it is irritating when people write 'Oor Wullie' Scots in an English speaking paper especially when it is obvious that if you were sitting in a room with them they wouldn't talk like that. In fact, I think that is a form of snobbishness-a person who writes 'Scottie speak' to differentiate themselves from 'the foreigners'.
103

Hickory,

US 14/05/2008 14:48:20
Could ye stop slammin' each other and look through the forest at the trees? This is another ploy for the lawyers to squeeze more out of ye. A lot of this could be stopped if the wording of legal papers were in plain and understandable English. It's not the brogue of a good Scot, it's the greed of a nasty lawyer.
104

CAC,

Edinburgh 14/05/2008 15:13:49
can none of you lot actually read. The article does quite clearly state that Scottish Transcribers are employed by mendip to do the transcriptions and there are other problems related to the court recordings which for reasons of confidentiality I will not go into.

Get a grip you lot and learn to read before you write. Solicitors and judges akin.
105

The silent steno speaketh,

Glasgow 28/05/2008 23:37:45
I'm a court stenographer (using a shorthand machine) and also do speech-to-text work for Deaf and hard-of-hearing people.

It would seem the problem with the above case is probably less the accent and more the quality of the RECORDINGS used in the courts. In England (I don't know about Scotland), they've all but got rid of shorthand writers in courts (other than a few of the bigger court centres in London) and put tapes in. The quality of these varies enormously, but it's very rare to get a good, clear recording of proceedings - very rare indeed. If people aren't mumbling, there's someone else coughing, putting papers over the microphones, speaking in stage whispers to their clients or solicitors, or there's building work in the background. The microphone cannot distinguish between what is important and what's not with the result of frequent mishears and inaudibles.

The bottom line is this: if you want a proper transcript of proceedings, you hire a qualified shorthand writer. They will turn up, take down every word and transcribe it, no muss, no fuss. It's the best method of capturing the spoken words in proceedings.

Unfortunately, people think you're 'just a shorthand typist' and nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, you're using shorthand, but most people will speak between 180-280 words a minute and you have to capture *every* word. That's a lot of words to hear, process into shorthand, write or stroke accurately, and then transcribe later. In addition to the words people use, you have to identify who is saying them and add punctuation as you're writing so you can make sense of it later. You do this for however long the day lasts, day in, day out.

Then when you get home, you turn on your computer and transcribe what you've done either that day or in a previous trial or hearing. The average turnaround time is 2-3 hours for every one hour of shorthand notes depending on the density and difficulty of the material. While everyo
106

The silent steno speaketh,

Glasgow 28/05/2008 23:41:43
(sorry, got cut of there!). While everyone else is watching EastEnders and opening the second bottle of Chablis, the shorthand writer is churning out page after page.

And as for the previous comment of £30 a page or whatever daft amount it was: if only that were the case! The job of court reporting has been downgraded as far as it will go. And given the amount of time it takes to train (about three to four years to become proficient enough to cover most things), for a lot of people, the returns just aren't worth it.

However, with this article, it would seem it's the recordings that were more at fault, but also the standard of oratory is so appalling these days, that when you combine the two, it makes it very difficult to transcribe. That's still no excuse for bad errors in what you DO transcribe though!

 

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