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Group mulls appeal as bid to halt HBOS takeover fails

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Published Date: 11 December 2008
A LAST-DITCH legal attempt to stop the takeover of HBOS collapsed yesterday after a watchdog ruled the move had "no merit".


Members of the Competition Appeal Tribunal (CAT) rejected a challenge to Lord Mandelson's decision to approve the Lloyds TSB deal.

Last night, the Merger Action Group (MAG), a consortium of business leaders, bank customers and shareholders that brought the case, was in talks to decide whether to seek leave to appeal against the ruling at the Court of Session in Edinburgh.

Malcolm Fraser, the MAG spokesman, pledged to "explore every available avenue in making sure the merits of our case are fully explored".

If the group does not appeal, the fate of the bank will rest in the hands of HBOS's shareholders, who vote on the takeover tomorrow.

MAG was set up last month in an 11th-hour effort to overturn Lord Mandelson's decision not to refer the deal to the Competition Commission.

He waved through the takeover despite of a report from the Office of Fair Trading that raised concerns about its effects on the mortgage, personal account and small to medium-sized business markets, particularly in Scotland.

MAG argued that the decisions taken by the UK government were "unlawful and against the interests of fostering employment, competition and the taxpayer's best interest".

Its case was heard under Scots law in a two-day session at the CAT's headquarters in London. MAG's lawyer, Ian Forrester, told the hearing that the decision to "rip up" competition rules and approve the proposed takeover had been "preordained" by Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, and Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister.

However, lawyers for HBOS, Lloyds TSB and the Department for Business and Regulatory Reform claimed the appeal included "paranoid delusions".

And yesterday, the tribunal's president, Mr Justice Gerald Barling, said the evidence in the case was "all one way". He said: "There is simply no basis for the allegation that the issue of the continuing need for the merger was not properly considered by the decision-maker."

The tribunal unanimously accepted that MAG had the required legal standing to bring a case before it, but dismissed its case that Lord Mandelson's decision not to refer the merger to the Competition Commission was unlawful.

The announcement of the tribunal's decision was delayed until the closing of the London Stock Exchange, as it could have influenced the share prices of Lloyds and HBOS.

Although the tribunal found that the applicants' legal standing was "borderline", it said it agreed to hear the case because it was exceptional.

The panel said: "We consider that in the wholly exceptional circumstances of the case, and particularly in view of the specific interest and strong feeling which the merger has aroused in Scotland, the applicants are 'persons aggrieved'."

Andrew Bowen, representing MAG, sought leave to appeal on the grounds that the tribunal had made an error in law in its definition of "fettered".

MAG had claimed that comments by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, indicating that competition law would be waived to allow the merger to proceed quickly, must have influenced – fettered – Lord Mandelson when he came to decide on the deal. But Sir Gerald rejected the appeal, saying it appeared to be on the grounds of "facts and evidence" rather than a point of law, meaning MAG would have to seek leave from the Court of Session to appeal.

Sir Gerald also dismissed an application by Paul Harris, representing the Secretary of State, to appeal the decision that MAG had legal standing to take the case, arguing that its members were not "aggrieved" as defined in the Enterprise Act, and that it was a matter of interpretation, not law, being raised.

Mr Harris also indicated the Secretary of State was seeking to recover "serious and substantial" legal costs from the case. He said those representing Lord Mandelson had incurred costs of more than £60,000. "Those ought to weigh on the minds of the applicants when determining their next steps," he said.

MAG said it was "heartened" that CAT "found they were right and proper people to bring the action, which had been raised under public interest concerns".

Mr Fraser said: "We are pleased that Sir Gerald Barling, QC, the tribunal chairman, acknowledged in his findings that we were absolutely right to bring this case forward in the public interest, despite the best efforts of Lord Mandelson's legal team to have our case rejected.

"We will now be having intensive meetings with our legal team regarding a possible appeal to the findings of the tribunal. This whole process has been run on a truncated timetable and we have complied with that."

If MAG bows out now, tomorrow's vote will be pivotal.

The takeover needs the support of half the shareholders and 75 per cent of the shareholdings.

This means that even if it is backed by institutional investors – many of whom will have stakes in both HBOS and Lloyds TSB – those with small interests could block it.

Shareholders hold key if case goes no further

IF THE Merger Action Group does not appeal successfully, Lloyds TSB faces its final hurdle in its bid to take over HBOS tomorrow. Shareholders in the Edinburgh-based bank will meet in Birmingham to vote on the deal.

There are two million small shareholders, 200,000 of whom are in Scotland; the rest are institutions. Under the scheme of arrangement, which determines how the vote is conducted, the board has to win the backing of parties holding 75 per cent of the bank's shares between them.

Financial institutions, holding about 80 per cent of the shares, are expected to support the deal. But for the merger to pass, it also has to be backed by 50 per cent of all shareholders. This makes the institutions a minority of all shareholders.

The HBOS board has consistently backed the deal and called on its shareholders to vote in favour of it. If the deal is approved, the banks will work together to create the new superbank which should come into being early in the new year.

If it is rejected, the position is less clear. HBOS still requires funding to shore up its ailing balance sheet.

It might attempt to do this by going to the government for a share in its recapitalisation pot. It could also try to deal with another institution.

Bill Jamieson

Few crumbs of comfort as tribunal delivers its crushing judgment


AFTER one of the swiftest judgments ever arrived at by the Competition Appeals Tribunal, the verdict of the panel comprising Mr Justice Barling, president, Michael Blair, QC, and Professor Peter Grinyer is emphatic, strongly argued – and at times crushing.

The one consolation for the six who brought the action is that it rejected assertions, principally by lawyers to the two banks, that the appellants were not "sufficiently aggrieved" as to merit a hearing.

The somewhat belittling objection advanced was that it was not enough for Malcolm Fraser, Mark Shaw, Peter de Vink, David Alexander, Timothy Noble and Dan Macdonald to be merely interested in a question of general public interest, but had to be "injuriously affected by the decision under challenge".

The applicants were merely, in the words of counsel for HBOS, Nicholas Green QC, an "officious bystander". But the tribunal ruled that "in the wholly exceptional circumstances of this case, and particularly in view of the specific interest and strong feeling which the merger has aroused in Scotland, the applicants were 'persons aggrieved'".

So why did the appeal fail? The tribunal found not just that there was no evidence of "fettered" discretion that would have affected Lord Mandelson's decision, but also that there was "a wholly proper approach to the decision-making process".

Moreover, if the over-arching fettering submission was correct, "the conclusion would be that the Secretary of State's statements to parliament, the process of instructing the OFT to investigate and report to him, the receipt and consideration of representations from other bodies including the Treasury … were little more than an elaborate sham designed to deceive parliament and others and achieve a preordained result without the exercise of the independent decision-making required by the governing legislation".

To claims that there was a "tinkering", or "denigrating" of the concerns expressed by the Office of Fair Trading, the tribunal found that "there is absolutely nothing in this point. The drafting neither diminishes the OFT finding nor indicates that the Secretary of State was failing to treat that finding as binding. Those OFT findings are set out in full in a public document for all to see. It is difficult to see what could have been gained by misrepresenting them in the decision. Nor, in our view, does the decision do so."

On the argument that the recapitalisation scheme might have enabled a stand-alone HBOS was insufficiently considered by Lord Mandelson, the judgment finds this was "simply unsustainable in the light of the evidence. The question … was discussed by the Secretary of State during the House of Lords debate … in the run up to the decision (he] received representations from several sources dealing with this issue".

The view of regulators was that the recapitalisation programme "was complementary and not alternative to the merger and, accordingly, that the merger was necessary notwithstanding the recapitalisation programme …The evidence is therefore all one way and there is simply no basis for the allegation that the issue of the continuing need for the merger was not properly considered".

Charting the timeline of a takeover

Wednesday, 17 September: News breaks that Lloyds TSB is to take over HBOS in a £12.2 billion deal. It follows a run on HBOS's shares.

Thursday, 18 September: Eric Daniels, Lloyds TSB's chief executive, confirms the deal would mean job cuts.

Thursday, 9 October: The government announces a bail-out that recapitalises both banks, but insists the £17 billion total will be available only if they merge.

Friday, 31 October: Lord Mandelson reconfirms decision to waive competition rules. Lloyds names the new bank's leadership, snubbing most of HBOS's senior directors. MSPs back motion to keep HBOS independent.

Monday, 3 November: The Chancellor, Alistair Darling, says an independent HBOS could still be in financial trouble.

Tuesday, 12 November: Gordon Brown insists the only alternative to the Lloyds merger is nationalisation.

Wednesday, 12 November: Rumours of Bank of China bid for HBOS prove unfounded.

Monday, 17 November: Mr Brown accused of "putting ego before jobs" by continuing to back the Lloyds deal.

Monday, 18 November: Mr Darling tells the Commons he opposes HBOS remaining independent.

Wednesday, 19 November: Lloyds TSB shareholders agree to the merger.

Thursday, 20 November: Scottish banking knights Sir Peter Burt and Sir George Mathewson abandon their bid to keep HBOS independent.

Saturday 29 November: A group of prominent businessmen calling themselves the Merger Action Group lodge a last-minute legal challenge that might yet derail the takeover bid.

Thursday 4 December: John Swinney, finance secretary, gives Scottish Government's tacit support to campaigners trying to halt takeover of HBOS by Lloyds TSB.

Friday 5 December: Consumer watchdog Which? throws its weight behind last-ditch attempt to stop deal.

Wednesday 10 December: The legal challenge rejected by Competition Appeal Tribunal.




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1

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

10/12/2008 22:42:03
Where is Alex Salmond?

What does he have to say on all of this?

Why is he making the imbecilic Alex Neil the fall guy?

When it comes to Maradona, Kris Boyd, Team GB etc Salmond just can't shut up.

When it comes to HBOS however and thousands of potential job losses, he has lost his voice.

Great leadership.
2

Hmm ...,

11/12/2008 00:41:03
I note (1) comment above. Haven't we heard this rant from him before - and the answer that, if the merger goes ahead, Salmond will have to try to negotiate with LloydsTSB on Scottish workers' behalf.

This sounds a sound reason to me, if not to this curiously named contributor.
3

SkeptikScot,

11/12/2008 00:44:16
Why drag out the inevitable? We need to work for our best interests within the new arrangement (the Lloyds superbank).

I feel sorry for staff constantly being given false hope. Could it have anything to do with the fact that worried staff, and concerned Edinburgh folk, buy any newspaper with "HBOS" in the headlines?
4

Lurking from home,

11/12/2008 01:04:03
The Marx Brothers.

What a franchise!
5

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 01:06:37
1 I assume you agree with Skull murphy in that we are a nation unable to do anything without the apron strings of westminster and doing down our neighbour iceland repeatedly in the parliament of westminster?
6

Marga,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 01:08:28
"Moreover, if the over-arching fettering submission was correct, "the conclusion would be that the Secretary of State's statements to parliament, the process of instructing the OFT to investigate and report to him, the receipt and consideration of representations from other bodies including the Treasury … were little more than an elaborate sham designed to deceive parliament and others and achieve a preordained result without the exercise of the independent decision-making required by the governing legislation".
Exactly. But without an enquiry, it can't be proved.
7

Lurking from home,

11/12/2008 01:16:19
Duck Soup.
8

Lurking from home,

11/12/2008 01:22:50
The most famous and gleefully self-promoting of the Marx Brothers, Groucho (born Julius) was the sardonic, sometimes absurdist wit of the group. Dressed in baggy pants, with oversized glasses and painted-on eyebrows and mustache, Groucho hurled barbed insults at friends and foes alike while crouch-walking and tapping imaginary ashes from a huge cigar. Like many vaudeville cohorts, he was a human cartoon, but he outlasted them all.

Marx's maternal family was theatrical and included famed vaudeville star Al Shean. Groucho got his start with Gus Edwards' kiddie review around 1904, and with his brothers (along with various relatives and hired help) worked in turn-of-the-century vaudeville with such acts as "The Four Nightingales" and "The Six Musical Mascots" and in sketches written by Al Shean like "Fun in Hi Skool" (1911) and "Home Again" (1914). By 1920, the Marx Brothers were touring on the Keith-Albee vaudeville circuit and finally honing the stage personalities which would carry them through the rest of their careers: notably the wisecracking con-man (Groucho), the dumb, fast-talking Italian (Chico) and the mute faun (Harpo).
9

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 02:59:02


What have I been saying for months now??

Told You!, Told You!, Told You!, Told You!, Told You!,

Told You!, Told You!, Told You!, Told You!, Told You!.

Until I am,...'Blue in the Face'!

Maybe I should of been born a Prophet?

Not atall, it is of 'Pure Commonsense', the "deal" was completed ages ago,.....

.....'Reality Check'?

..........This is the,...."Reality"!!

One would be wise to listen to Linskaill. :)


10

Sierra Foothills Scot,

Diamond Springs 11/12/2008 03:06:48
#9 Charles Linskaill -

If you're so smart why aren't you rich?
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 03:33:32

Sierra Foothills Scot 10,

That is what, is called,...'Sods Law'.



12

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 04:15:19
Charles are you just pure senile? You ramble on here , never make a point other "HA thats the snp for you", never offer a viewpoint or constructive point, just wingman to a feeble debater called Baffled. It's not only yourself thats seedless, your argument bears no fruit either.
13

East Lothian CLP,

11/12/2008 04:44:46
1- Who are you? Your a complete idiot? Unfortunately the Labour party is full of lackies like you, hence why we have zilch in terms of true democracy or debate in the party, just rubber stamping or dismissal from the party. These are grown adults that are quivering that they will be booted out of the party. Pretty pathetic, seeing as the party has long since abandoned any pretence at democracy ,fairness, living up to their voters ideals and ethos of their founding.

1 - Eejits like you are the best recruiting seargents for the SNP, you never make a point, do down Scotland at every opportunity, glaot like Jim Murphy at Scotlands failures and are a complete embarassment to people like myself who have been members 30 + years. All you are is a student lacky hoping for a biscuit. Rami's the name isnt it?
14

donald,

glasgow 11/12/2008 05:16:58
High fives all round for the GB Party again.
15

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 11/12/2008 05:23:56
Poor Charles, so often wrong that when he finally gets one right on a 50/50 bet he thinks he's Nostradamus.

"Maybe I should of been born a Prophet?"

Please tell us, Oh wise and withered sage, do you think this will stop them taking 40 quid from your account every time your "a minute late"?
16

Jock MacSprog,

11/12/2008 06:18:34
boo hoo, were Scottish and everyones against us, everythings a conspiracy, blah blah blah. Jesus tap dancing christ, this whole action group has been a massive embarrasment for the Scottish business community. These guys were a bunch of self inflated light weights with no money and no plan from day one. Why are people here in Scotland so easily wound up and whipped into a frenzy by all these false nationalists and shortbread tin Scots ?
17

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 11/12/2008 06:31:32
Not so much of a surprise, INJURIOUSLY, indeed. I look forward to the SCOTTISH REERENDUM on INDEPENDENCE in 2010. The result will be that SCOTLAND will be sending her own OLYMPIC TEAM TO LONDON. Have a nice day!!!!!!
18

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

11/12/2008 07:15:05
Alex Neil and MAG. The modern day equivalent of The Flat Earth Society.
19

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

11/12/2008 07:17:46
#13 East Lothian CLP, please go and lie down in a darkened room before its too late.
20

East Lothian CLP,

11/12/2008 07:52:06
19- Prof braindead and follower not a leader -

You exemplify all that I have previously said regarding selection lackies who have sold out a party of great ideals. Also I note many people feel the same way about your antiScot posturing and hi five mentality. I hope you are shortly a vicitim of your illustrious leaders policies. Hoepfully the 42 day one, then we can all have peace and proper intelligent debate on matters of importance too the people of Scotland(that has a nice ring too it and resonates well, dontcha fink?)

one things for sure, your rattled as well as baffled!

Well done.
21

Donnie Murdo,

Western Isles 11/12/2008 07:53:14
VOTE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
22

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 08:41:59
An independent country without its own bank? mmmm Gordon knew what he was doing.
23

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 08:45:28
#22 - In business it is called a "poison pill" to discourage investors from taking over a company.
24

Alastair the First,

11/12/2008 09:00:58
Did anyone really expect the result to be any different? These Labour guys will have made sure that they were going to win by fixing the result as usual, just as they do with postal votes. Expect a knoghthood for the tribunal members in the New Year Honours List.

Labour = Crooks.
25

Voice of reason,

EDINBURGH 11/12/2008 09:04:53
But why did Roberet Peston say the deal WOULD go ahead as soon as it was announced ? That's for sharehilders to say .
26

DaveK,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 09:13:58
25
SNP policy documents have for a number of years considered the possibility of turning the Bank of Scotland into a national bank for an independent country. Regardless of ownership, and at present the UK taxpayers own Scotland depsite what people believe, the psychological and emotional attachments to a "Bank of Scotland" are clear for all too see. No one disputes the reality of ownership, what is clear is that the battle for emotions and national sentiment is obvious for all too see, as is your over use of the hyphen, rather than making overt use of the lines, read between them.
27

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 09:29:45
WHOO HOO! SLAPPED DOWN AGAIN!
28

brianmca3,

auld reekie 11/12/2008 09:43:47
no 1
thats all he can do is slag off scotland and its democraticaly elected scots parlimeant
heres some links i found that,show just how the english think of us,and so called scots socialists
read them and tell me what you think,especialy about how laband lib dems did nothing to save a fire station in the borders
http://www.wonkosworld.co.uk/blog/2006_06_01_archive.html
http://www.socialistunity.com/?cat=50&paged=2
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/968/Holyrood-may-get-shout-to.1411023.jp
29

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 09:51:03
#29 - talking of the sunderland echo. Wheres Kimba the father resenter?
30

Peter20,

11/12/2008 10:11:58
brianmca3 - As an Englishman living in Scotland I would like to thank you for providing us with links to show what the English think of the Scots. I could quite easily pick out several posts from this website everyday showing a completely irrational hatred of the English from many Scots, but I'm not daft enough to think it is representative of the general Scots opinion. Certainly in the north of England I think you'll find a large degree of support for Scottish independence, the only downside being that for those of us who live (lived) in the north of England it would mean a future under a Tory Government. Not Scotland's problem I agree - but a depressing thought never the less. Try not to lump everybody in the England in the same bracket eh? The politicians in Westminster speak for nobody but themselves! Having said all that I agree with all you say about our friend Professor Wagstaff - nothing constructive to say about anything!
31

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 10:22:52

Forget Independence!, it is guite obvious that if we cant (as I knew) look after our own interests, such as our banks, what hope would we have, to even butter bread?

32

brianmca3,

auld reekie 11/12/2008 10:28:53
#31 i dont lump them all in the same bracket,i have met loads of english people who actualy agree that scotland shoul have more control
but what i found funny was the socialist one ,further down the page after the cornwall part,wendy alexander is quoted in a march booklet as stating ""scottish labour has fixed scotlands housing needs",saying change is what we do(scottish labour)
tell that to the homeless scots looking for a house from their local councill office
they have all been given away to incomers as they get priority over locals
33

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 10:30:20
Depending on whether we follow the US System, or the failed UK system of generating funds wil not become a concern for a Newly Independant Scotland. There is absolutely no reason for Scotland not moving forward by adopting the Euro Banking System. After all as a Sovereign Nation we enter the EU as an entity Nation in its own right. The right to produce Scottish Notes was laid down as a condition to the acceptance of the Act of Union 1707. Gordon Brown and his vile New Labour Party, are the enemy of every Scottish Citizen, and by denying the right to produce our own currency and the declared fact that Westminster Intends to change the fact that a Catholic Person could succeed to the English Throne, they have obviously breached the Act of Union.

I apologise to every Catholic Scot, but the use of Browns skullduggery demands fighting New Labour with every weapon at our disposal. Of course an Independent Scotland would never need such a sorry, outdated proviso in its Constitution. Scotland will welcome all people who have built a meaningfull life as Citizens of Scotland. The Only Condition would be that you Love Scotland. Not much to ask for.

The Skull Murphy and every other New Labour Turncoat could probably satisfy their aspirations, by living in England.

Its certainly Time for a Truly Scottish Labour Party to form from the ashes of the putrid New Labour Party.

Perhaps we can Start with East Lothians Labour Party. Get rid off Moffat fellow Scots and stand up for Scotland by affiliating with the SNP Independence Party in a New Brave Scotland not afraid to join the World once more.
34

brianmca3,

auld reekie 11/12/2008 10:34:11
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/968/Holyrood-may-get-shout-to.1411023.jp


why does the echo have an interest in this?,do locals work in said fire station?
not complaining ,i would like to say thanks for showing us where our so called polititions are hidding
and it states id the lib dems had turned up to try and keep it open ,they as a group would vote for its closing
aye socialists wanting joob loses ,hmmm sounds like thatcher or in her cloned form tony blair
who despitebeing scottish(born edinburgh) stated he would be supporting england in the scotland v england match
yet when andy said some off the cuff remark that he would be supporting anyone but england(a dig at blair )
hes blasted for it
35

brianmca3,

auld reekie 11/12/2008 10:38:21
#34 yes thats how they should go about it,but herr brown would have none of that thank you
he seems to think that scotland is their devine right to rule and lord over
voters kindly remind this bufoon who thinks hes super man(saved the world i did ,ronflmfao)
anyone living in scotland has the right to vote which way they see fit ,as to the bettermeant of scotland
not the do as your topld mentality of scottish liebour
36

brianmca3,

auld reekie 11/12/2008 10:39:15
#36 i meat do as your told sorry about the typo
37

MacGhillieBhain,

Aberdeen 11/12/2008 11:19:45
#2hmm--Alex Salmond negotiate for workers? It's a pity he doesn't do something for the Asian and Eastern European SERF'S employed on the fishing boats and fish factories in his constituency.Apparently,there are hundreds of these people slaveing for mere coppers while there are many fishermen and other workers on the dole.If Mr Salmond had spent more time attending to that,instead of his futile attempt to gladhand Glenrothes,things might be different today.
38

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 11:25:32
#38 - i have to agree with that sentiment, get the skippers told.
39

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 11:28:35
#32 - with toome tabards like you folding at the mearest oposition your probably right. But for the rest of us with working and functional cajones we'll keep on fighting for scotland.

You should however join the royal regiment of blank firers.

40

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 11:35:29

#40,

'Ha Ha' Very Funny!

:)

41

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 11:49:06

In all fairness, and at the end me the day, I suppose we cannot put Salmond on the line, for ignoring HBOS, we as a Nation, suffer from complacency in general, if we did not, we would have had Independene many moons ago, sums it up! Dont it?

42

Ju@n Kerr - the ex labour sheep,

11/12/2008 11:50:09
Seriously chuckles you go on about "our banks" yet you never uttered one word against any of it other "look at me i am right I am right" while slagging of all attempts at heping the banks and dutifuly rolling over.

Pretty poor.
43

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 11:51:45
T9 mobile phone error:
*me* should say off.
44

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 11:59:18

#43,

Why "argue" on something that has already taken place?,

Only a Child would do that! And that speaks mountains.
45

TA1,

11/12/2008 12:32:28
#16 - You do talk a load of keech. What have "false nationalists and shortbread tin Scots" got to do with it? What has annoyed people, is the fact that HBoS has been treated differently from every other bank, nothing was changed in its regard when the whole banking situation changed, AND THE ONLY ONES SAYING ITS INDEPENDENCE WAS NOT VIABLE WITH SIMILAR GOVERNMENT FUNDING TO OTHER BANKS WERE THE TREASURY AND ITS MINIONS. INDEPENDENT FINANCIAL EXPERTS WERE SAYING THAT THE EVIDENCE SUGGESTED THAT IT WAS PERFECTLY VIABLE. HOWEVER, THIS DID NOT SUIT THE OFFICIAL LINE AND SO, AS USUAL, WAS NOT WIDELY REPORTED OR FOLLOWED UP BY THE MEDIA.
Next time you decide to bump your gums try engaging brain first . Oh, and as for "lightweights", I hardly think the Bank of China comes into that category but it can tell when the cards are stacked against it (Stacked cards hardly equals level playing field).
46

Alastair the First,

11/12/2008 12:37:55
46: Don't you mean "speaks volumes"?

BTW how do you manage to come out with such inane ramblings? Your posts are nonsensical and incoherent to the point of annoyance. Can't you compose a proper sentance withmout all the unnecessary and erroneous quote marks? Did you skive off primary school too much?
47

IainGlasgow,

11/12/2008 13:10:23
Lets put all this "Scottish" bank stuff into perspective.

At the moment the core administrative function of HBOS is carried out in Halifax. Notice that all Bank of Scotland branches also have the Halifax sign on their wall, however Halifax branches do not also carry the Bank of Scotland logo.

Lloyds TSB has its registered office in Scotland so for all intents and purposes is not much less Scottish than HBOS.

Lloyds TSB tends to use the Bank of Scotland brand (presumably minus the adjacent Halifax sign)for all of its retail and business banking in Scotland and the Lloyds TSB name in Scotland will be phased out. This means it is more likely Lloyds TSB branch staff who will face redundancy than Bank of Scotland staff. I have no doubt however this is a PR move to curry favour with people in Scotland who are opposed to the merger. Nevertheless there is no "patriotic" ground to oppose the merger.

All of this however does not change the fact the merger will lead to the loss of up to 40,000 jobs throughout the UK, not something the UK government should still be trying to force through when we face such potentially high levels of unemployment. However its their rope and themselves they risk hanging come election time.

As for keeping the Bank of Scotland notes this may be something of a misnomer. Reports today suggest the pound is on course to go level with the Euro. When that happens there will be a very weak case for staying out of the Euro.
48

IainGlasgow,

11/12/2008 13:16:04
#50

As a nationlist I have to agree. It would be far more practical and alot cheaper to set up a new institution for this purpose, one that has no operation in retail, commercial or investment banking. If it did then this could create conflicts with its function as a central bank. Decisions central banks need to make are not always those that will be popular with (and thus retain or win) customers.
49

Andy Mac,

G20 11/12/2008 13:19:19
Alex Salmond has stated he wants as much decision making and jobs to stay in Scotland. For that reason he opposes the takeover (sorry, "merger") and supports the MAG action.

Does that answer your tedious question / fake outrage over our first minister, PQAW?

Gordon Brown's dinner buddies are about to profit from the sale of the century, and competition law has been suspended to allow them to do so. Do you think you could manufacture some fake rage over this, or is nat-bashing your only contribution to the greater good?


That, PQAW was the answer I gave you yesterday. Do you want to answer me, or as soon as you've played your little canvassing role in trying to make this out to be the SNP's fault have you nothing else to say?
50

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/12/2008 13:25:11
27

"SNP policy documents have for a number of years considered the possibility of turning the Bank of Scotland into a national bank for an independent country."

What utter tosh.

SNP policy at one time was to create a brand new Scottish central bank withy an independent Scottish currency - something I would support. It did not ever entail nationalising BoS.

Current SNP policy is to have no Scottish central bank and use sterling until such time as Scotland could enter the Euro zone. Again nothing to do with BoS.
51

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/12/2008 13:26:47
Some here portray this as a choice between good and evil - it isn't - it's a choice between one evil and a lesser evil. To pretend there is some magic non-merger solution is quite simply pure fantasy.

One of the myths about HBOS is that it was the Halifax side that caused the problems not the Bank of Scotland side.

Unfortunately HBOS's latest trading statement somewhat blows that theory to pieces. It said that HBOS faced write-downs of £5.2bn for the first 9 months of this year including £1.7bn from their corporate banking division. The corporate banking division was a Bank of Scotland not a Halifax speciality.

It is therefore clear that the whole HBOS group - not just the Halifax mortgage side is in a shocking state.

The merger will go ahead - the important thing is to make sure that the Lloyds Banking Group makes it as painless as possible, with as few job losses as possible.
52

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 11/12/2008 13:54:59
The rejection to allow the case to at least be heard is a national discrace and yes it is right we should be expecting the First Minister of Scotland to be heard on this subject rather than Alex Neil. The fact that he is not appears very strange and no smokescreen at this time regarding wanting to keep-in with Lloyds TSB re jobs in Scotland is really acceptable. There is no doubt that as a result the BofScotland rump will remain in Scotland now forever destined to a role operating within the confines of our small country. The responsible people running the bank should be pilloried for life.
53

IainGlasgow,

11/12/2008 14:11:00
#57

The pound has been declining against the Euro for some time. It appears to be a trend more so than a temporary relativity and there is nothing on the immediate horizon that is going to increase the value of sterling, on the contrary interest rate cuts could see it fall further.

In retrospect the Bank of China was probably the best suitor but Jim Murphy and Robert Peston made sure any prospect of that was well and truly dead in the water. The UK government may well pay lip service to the idea of a level playing field for any rival bids but they have gone well out of their way to ensure that is not the case.

Of course 75% of HBOS shareholders have to vote in favour for this to go ahead. Shareholders are a canny lot and could well be inclined to ride out the storm until the shares stabilise again or at the very least force Lloyds to come back with a better offer.
54

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

11/12/2008 14:16:29
"53 Andy Mac,G20 11/12/2008 13:19:19
Alex Salmond has stated he wants as much decision making and jobs to stay in Scotland. For that reason he opposes the takeover (sorry, "merger") and supports the MAG action.

Does that answer your tedious question / fake outrage over our first minister, PQAW?"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So that it?
Thats your reply?
Our glorious First Minister "stated he wants as much decision making and jobs to stay in Scotland."
What a shining example of a great leader.
How hands on can you get?
Did you expect him to say he wanted decision making and jobs moved out of Scotland?
And when did he say this? October?
Its nearly Christmas.

If thats the best you can offer, why bother wasting my time by replying to my post?


55

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

11/12/2008 14:18:56
58 IainGlasgow,11/12/2008 14:11:00
#57

Of course 75% of HBOS shareholders have to vote in favour for this to go ahead. Shareholders are a canny lot and could well be inclined to ride out the storm until the shares stabilise again or at the very least force Lloyds to come back with a better offer.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are living in Cloud Cuckoo land if you believe that. The vast majority of shares are owned by the big institutions and they will all vote for the takeover as its the only option that guarantees survival.
56

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/12/2008 14:51:39
#53 The SNP have been trying to be all things to all men regards this merger. On the one hand we have the First Minister saying it is the only option on the table and that he is trying to get the best deal as possible. On the other hand we also have the same First Minister telling his party conference that he is going to stop the merger and using Alex Neil as a proxy for promoting a magic non-existent independent alternative.

Bank of China was never ever going to be a feasible option. It takes something like 6 months to organise a merger/takeover. HBOS needed something a lot quicker or it would have to be nationalised or go to the wall. Bank of China withdrew not because of the government but because they realised that HBOS was a basket-case - why else would it need a £10 billion loan facility from LTSB?

Even Alex Neil says there is no alternative bidder now. Such talk is just that - talk.

If there is no merger the only solution is nationalisation - that's not me saying I prefer the merger - it's me saying that the choices available for HBOS are very limited.
57

birdman,

edinburgh 11/12/2008 14:53:51
It should be stopped.
Sixteen years ago ICI came out of the fertiliser business losing quite a few jobs nationwide. Not only in their chemical plants but many small businesses in the vicinity of these places also closed as the majority of their trade came from the factories or the workers themselves.
A foriegn company was interested in taking over some of the plants, but were stopped from doing so by the monopolies and margers commision which said it would give the prospective buyer an unfair advantage over it's competitors.
Surely this merger, sorry that should be takeover is doing the same for Lloyds, and therefor should be stopped by the Government; The real one in London.
58

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/12/2008 14:55:16
#58 Iain that just won't happen.

If they don't vote for the merger shareholders will find that their shares are worthless because it will either go bust or be nationalised like Northern Rock - with shareholders not receiving a penny.
59

Navvy,

11/12/2008 14:56:10
I have been steadily running down my business with BoS

I will now accelerate the process
60

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

11/12/2008 14:57:09
#63 ICI was nowhere near as bad a mess as HBOS is. HBOS needs action now if it is to survive - it does not have the option of remaining independent. Either it merges or it is nationalised - otherwise it will go to the wall.
61

Navvy,

11/12/2008 14:59:20
#64

Shares worthless?
Share value will be the same for all and, remember, almost every share holder aquired his shares when Halifax was demutualised. This event was the start of the road to the present mess.

The larger shareholders are teh institutional shareholders and they deserve whatever they get because it was their tacit endorsement of the management which allowed to mess to develop

I am laughing
62

jackhobbs,

glasgow 11/12/2008 15:02:44
There are two votes are there not.

1. 75% of the total shares have to be voted in favour of the takeover.

2. 50% of the individual shareholders have to approve the takeover.

I understand that BoS supporters in Scotland consider they may have/hope a majority in vote 2 but let me say that the number of individual shareholders south of the border i.e. previously Halifax BS members will in all probability outnumber the individual shareholders north of the border so it is probably a 'busted flush' to use the words of a banking knight to think that the HBOS membership (shares and accounts) will not support the takeover.
MAG should they consider an appeal to the Court of Session should also take into account that it could cost them dearly if the 'Lord Hell hath no fury' demands that the government costs have to be met.
Think on !!!
63

Embra Don,

11/12/2008 16:39:57
#32 Charles Linskaill,
Yep that's the problem - we are completely incompetent by virtue of our genes, our geographic location and our political, social and intellectual inferiority. It must be the case - our unionist betters keep telling us so. And they are not self seeking spineless mendacious lackeys after all.
64

Embra Don,

11/12/2008 16:51:04
I sold the shares I was given as part of the de-mutualisation of the Halifax when the carpet baggers won the vote. It is therefore only of passing interest to me - but, if I were an HBoS shareholder, I would find it difficult to see any advantage in accepting the offer. The Government obviously couldn't allow an independent HBoS to collapse and would be forced to treat it in the same way as any other bank - i.e. effectively buying preference shares. There is so little to lose I would much prefer to sit tight.
65

Wynn,

CLYDESDALE 11/12/2008 16:56:44
Who, I ask, watches the Watchdog?
The Master has discussed this takeover thing with people who know and His Master's Voice has spoken...
Whingers, you're up agin some pretty clever operators here for since he dwells unreachable in the place known as the House of Lords he cannot be made to stand up in the House to explain the whys and wherefores of the merger and how it went through against the rules of competition. ... ...
So pipe down proles and get back to worrying about mundane things like your mortgages and the cost of living and pensions and similar.
Them as dwell in the dirt should keep stum, accept what is good for them and leave Olympian decisions to the Master and friends.
66

Wynn,

CLYDESDALE 11/12/2008 16:57:56
Who, I ask, watches the Watchdog?
The Master has discussed this takeover thing with people who know and His Master's Voice has spoken...
Whingers, you're up agin some pretty clever operators here for since he dwells unreachable in the place known as the House of Lords he cannot be made to stand up in the House to explain the whys and wherefores of the merger and how it went through against the rules of competition. ... ...
So pipe down proles and get back to worrying about mundane things like your mortgages and the cost of living and pensions and similar.
Them as dwell in the dirt should keep stum, accept what is good for them and leave Olympian decisions to the Master and friends.
67

Wynn,

CLYDESDALE 11/12/2008 16:57:57
Who, I ask, watches the Watchdog?
The Master has discussed this takeover thing with people who know and His Master's Voice has spoken...
Whingers, you're up agin some pretty clever operators here for since he dwells unreachable in the place known as the House of Lords he cannot be made to stand up in the House to explain the whys and wherefores of the merger and how it went through against the rules of competition. ... ...
So pipe down proles and get back to worrying about mundane things like your mortgages and the cost of living and pensions and similar.
Them as dwell in the dirt should keep stum, accept what is good for them and leave Olympian decisions to the Master and friends.
68

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 11/12/2008 20:33:23

Wynn ~73/74,

"Who, I ask, watches the Watchdog?"

Dunno! It is on at a funny time, far to busy with more important matters at the time its on, I do however remember watching it 'donkeys years ago', when HBOS was BOS!

I don't remember life being dull in theses days! :)


69

Wynn,

11/12/2008 21:00:20
Sorry people, for the triple trouble.
I can't get the hang of the Scootsmon software...
Perhaps if it said "Thank you for your comment...now go and get a life"?
70

Tris,

12/12/2008 00:39:47
The Noble and Rt Hon Baron of Harlepool and Fey is NOT to be trifled with.

Blue blood will not have truck with commoners and their silly rules and regulations.

Well, it serves us right. After all, clearly WE voted for him....

Oh.....
71

Tris,

12/12/2008 00:50:30
57. I have doubts that they would let us into the € now.
72

brianmca3,

auld reekie 12/12/2008 13:09:25
in these much hated pc times,is it a crime to call mandy a gaylord,or will the pc police rap my knuckles and call me homophobic
hmmm just a thought
73

TheShark,

13/12/2008 13:03:16
Does anybody have a timeline for the "merger" now that the inevitable shareholder agreement has happened?
74

Phil1,

Edinburgh 14/12/2008 23:42:05
Merger Action Group (MAG),

I wonder do they have shares in HBOS? When did they buy them? Did they vote for the useless Chairman and Chief Executive that gambled and lost billions in value that the bank's customers and shareholders had built up over the years.

If it wasn't for Llyods and the bailout HBOS would be in the same place as the Icelandic banks - bankrupt.

I think these nasty people should go away and start their own bank if they are so good at knowing what state a bank is in without having seen the books.

No they'll crawl back in their holes - perhaps even paid for years ago with cheap HBOS mortagages.

 

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