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Tories face new split on Europe as David Cameron vetoes Lisbon referendum

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Published Date: 04 November 2009
THE Conservatives last night said they would not hold a referendum on the European Union's Lisbon Treaty, a decision that will enrage the Eurosceptic wing of David Cameron's party.
Shadow foreign secretary William Hague ruled out a vote after the Czech Republic signed up to the treaty yesterday.

The treaty, which was drawn-up to streamline EU decision making, could come into force as early as next month, after the Czech president Vaclav Klaus took the final step required for its ratification.

His signature means that all 27 member states have now endorsed the treaty and removed the last hurdle that needed to be negotiated for it to be agreed.

His action has created a severe headache for the Conservatives, who face the possibility of the party's long-standing fault lines on European policy, which proved so damaging to John Major's government in the 1990s, being reopened.

The Tories had hoped the Czechs would delay their decision until after the UK general election, which would have allowed an incoming Conservative government to hold a vote on Lisbon.

In 2007, Mr Cameron gave an "iron-clad" promise that a future Tory government would hold a referendum.

But last night Mr Hague said it was "no longer possible" for an incoming Conservative government to hold a poll on the Lisbon Treaty, because it would have become law by that time.

"This is a bad day for democracy," Mr Hague said. He blamed Gordon Brown and the Labour government for denying voters a referendum in the first place.

In recent months, the Conservatives have been vague when asked what would happen if all 27 member states had endorsed Lisbon by the time they came to power.

All the Tory leader has said is that he "would not let matters rest there".

Today, Mr Cameron is expected to outline his European plans, in a speech that will be keenly watched by Tory Eurosceptics, already angered that they are to be denied a referendum.

Conservative opponents of the Lisbon agreement believe it will result in too many powers being given away to Brussels. One prominent Tory Eurosceptic, the MP Bill Cash, said a referendum should be held in the UK regardless of whether the treaty has been ratified.

"We need a full referendum on Lisbon, as we were promised and as we voted in the House of Commons – no ifs or buts," he said. "This is about the government of the United Kingdom operating in line with the democratic wishes of the electorate."

Mr Cameron's hopes that Mr Klaus would hold out were dashed when the Czech president signed much sooner than expected.

Czech officials said he did so despite misgivings about a recent court ruling against a claim that the treaty was against the Czech constitution.

Earlier, Mr Cameron denied that he had let down voters on his referendum promise adding he was "disappointed" that all 27 countries had signed up.

STRIVING FOR A MORE EFFICIENT EU

THE Lisbon Treaty is a watered down version of an earlier draft constitution that was rejected in referendums in France and the Netherlands in 2005.

It would create the post of a new European Council president who would serve a term of two-and-a-half years. It also provides for a new foreign policy chief.

The treaty's supporters say it will allow the EU to operate more efficiently and give it greater influence in world affairs. Critics say it will cede too many national powers to Brussels.

Last month, the Irish people voted in favour of Lisbon in a second referendum held after the first poll produced a "No" result. Since then, both Poland and now the Czech Republic have signed up.


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1

Group Captain Lionel Mandrake,

03/11/2009 22:55:47
"THE Conservatives last night said they would not hold a referendum on the European Union's Lisbon Treaty, a decision that will enrage the Eurosceptic wing of David Cameron's party."

No, it won't.

We are realists.

We will, however, be a lot more assertive and self-interested in future EU negotiations.

Just like the French, n'est-ce pas?
2

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 03/11/2009 23:32:27
2 Mandrake*

Haha...everyone feels your anti-European rage..goes against an Englishman stands for after all..even if you are the slightly odd version of a little Englander-Scotlander!
3

Nevsky;,

St Petersburg 03/11/2009 23:44:49
1 Mandrake*

I bet you love a bit of assertion!
4

Cynicus Unbound,

03/11/2009 23:53:34
Naughty Nevsky!

At least Smee has the cojones to come out as a Tory -unlike Rufus who ploughs his inceasingly lonely pan-unionist furrow. This leads him to absurd positions like praisng Macavity whom he privately loathes, probably, even more than does the average CyberNat.
5

syntax,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 02:21:35
Now we have the Tories openly lying to the electorate - just like the lying Labour Party - power has now been handed to the Brussels gravy train. There's no point having UK MP's, since all decisions are now made in Brussels. Euro MP's have been stealing money for years and failed to ratify their own accounts - decisions will now be made by Germany and her allies. The UK ceded power to the Germans and not a shot fired?

Are our MP's really that stupid? Do they really think that the ordinary public are going to put up with this undemocratic behaviour any longer? Watch the growth in insurrection, civil unrest, civil disobedience etc., I've always been an extremely moderate individual and I'm now voting for and propose to actively fund the BNP. Who cares if they are racist - at least they will not kow tow to the Germans !!!
6

,

04/11/2009 02:22:10
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
7

Am Fògarrach,

04/11/2009 02:28:18
So now we are bound by the Lisbon Treaty. But the EU has been causing us trouble for many years. As a net contributor to the EU budget, we are paying the EU to decimate our fisheries and sheep farming. WHY? Strictly speaking decimate means kill one centurion in a hundred but nowadays means wholesale slaughter.

Let's think about that again - we pay them to shut down Scottish fisheries and agriculture?

Hill farm buildings are becoming derelict - vet practices, agricultural suppliers and workshops are closing, hauliers are closing down, schools and village post offices are closing. Why are the pipes not playing a lament at sunset every day on BBC Radio Scotland?
8

DeanConinPeteFSteed,

04/11/2009 05:03:20
It can’t be a good thing when trying to explain his pre-election U-turn on the Lisbon Treaty David Cameron looked as if he’d been made to sit on a very hot poker. Tick tick tick Mr Cameron tick tick tick.
9

Scotindy,

los Angeles 04/11/2009 05:16:12
So the maggie thather pary is not FOR TURNING. England is BUST AND IS BANKRUPT, pick your party. SCOTLAND IS THE ONLY WAY OUT FOR US... VOTE SNP............
10

Letters From Muscat,

edinburgh 04/11/2009 05:44:18
This talk about the Lisbon Treaty being the bees knees and the fact that it cannot be changed. ? I'm sure I read on a Dailt Telegraph blog the other day that the English are just no very pleased with the result. And Treaties CAN be overturned. Don't listen to Gordon Brownn and his ilk. Especially the Millipede. He has an ulterior motive. Naive? me? yes but if there are enough people, voters that is, they will not get away with this 'handing over our sovereignty' to faceless bureaucrats over the water. And when did they last have their accounts audited? Ask the Welsh Wizard that question and wait for a waffling answer.
11

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/11/2009 05:44:53
England is DEAD.... They refuse to evolve.. They stick in in their little world of the empire. Done you are now done the Checks have made pade to that one. SCOTLAND MUST BREAK AWAY FROM THIS LUNACY. Norway Sweden,Switzerland, are doing all very well thankyou and they do not have the natural rescources we have HYDRO, WAVE POWER, WINND and recyclables. SCOTLAND IS GREAT and when we get rid of the english we will be MUCH BETTER OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF. Have a nice day YALLL.
12

Ray Merrall,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 06:01:09
Oh Dear, The CyberNats are pulling their hair (or whatever on their respective brows), a wailing and a gnashing of teeth as their dreams of world domination slowly collapse around them to drift away as dust.
The strength of the Union has now become the strength of the European Union as the nation states go the same way in importance as parish councils.
And Oh! what a relief to Didhe Cameron and Wee Willie Hague as they realise that they no longer have to promise a referendum trying to leave Europe and antagonise their business funding supporters, although it will annoy the Murdoch Media, the Belize residing Lord Ashton and the other rabid Tory Eurosceptics in the short term.
13

Yok Finney,

Ross-shore 04/11/2009 06:44:15
"Ach, you're not such a bad politician, William. Very good indeed. But from where I'm sitting, the view is a deep shade of very rosy, in more ways than one ... regardless of how much Westminster attempts to manipulate the situation, the EU will support us, as will the United Nations and that will only relinquish one outcome: Scotl and controlling the oil.

Westminster has been at it for years. It re-registered nUKES plc as an English company when it relocated from Glasgow and now it has just sold EGB Nuclear to the French .. how much longer do you think the people of Scotland are going to by the theiving hoors of the City of London?"

(Extract from Ross Robertson's NEW BOOK. Warning: it's 100% proof. Take slowly and with discretion.)
14

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 04/11/2009 06:46:24
BANKRUPT ENGLAND . GO AND VOTE FOR IT..............
15

i wear trousers not a skirt,

hate the snp and new labour 04/11/2009 06:52:04
Alex salmond couldnt run a p**s up in a brewery .But alex salmond will be ok with his two jobs and pensions . Why doesnt he resign as a mp? surely GREEDY eck cant do both jobs at the same time.

















16

Skeptic#1,

England 04/11/2009 06:56:07
The English don't still think of everything as an attempt at rebuilding 'their' empire and to suggest it is B******S. I can't help thinking that the politicians have become traitors in the full sense of the word and sold the lot of us down the river. All this because of a grand plan to stop the Germans constantly invading their neighbours. Like some sleazy banker and his get scheme to get his grubby little hands on your savings, the plan was laid decades ago and we have all been carefully led by the hand all the way to oblivion. We all are now sheep to be shawn by a new 'shepherd' ... just cannon fodder in another form!
17

Jings MacCrivvens,

04/11/2009 07:23:09
Clearly Tory promises have as much validity as Labour promises.
Sorry,.......... I forgot the two parties are actually indistinguishable.
18

mr broon,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 07:37:27
Try as he might, this is one U-turn that Cameron cannot gloss over!

It may well cost the Tories many marginal seats in Southern England where Eurosceptic Tories will flock to the loony UKIP?

The closer it reaches the General Election the more rebel Eurosceptic Tories will break cover, and the split on Europe within the party will commence all over again.

The Tories are in for a torrid time just like Major
before the '97 Election.

Former Tory Minister Michael Heseltine could well be correct when he recently stated that, unless there is an unprecedented swing to the Tories, it will be a hung Parliament after the next General election?

Suddenly things are not looking too rosy for the Tories!
19

Unimpressed one,

04/11/2009 07:54:27
Makes Cameron quite a hypocrite given what's he's said about Liebor lying to the electorate over allowing a referendum. If Cameron does this before an election, what would he do once he's in power?
20

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 08:21:36
Not that I want to defned Tory Scum, but they cannot hold a referendum now, its too late. Just as well as it would descend into the most rediculous xenophobic anti European ranting we have heard since 1975. Tories want the EU for the business opportunities and rally against any social policies that benefit the people of Europe.

Not holding the referendum will not change the election result next year, and any Labourites clutching at that straw should rememebr what was promised by them at the last general election. The Tories will not let that pass without highlighting it at every opportunity.



21

Ben Thehoose,

04/11/2009 08:23:15
I hope any SNP government holds an EU referendum.

The very idea of being shackled to a foreign power is too awful to contemplate.
22

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 08:25:28
SNP's deceit and broken promises.

Tory deceit and broken promises. Not that it will placate the Eurosceptics.

Odd bedfellows.
23

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 08:30:08
-21

'Hope' being the operative word.

Won't happen.
24

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 08:31:17
-19

Indeed. Look at Salmond, he promised the earth in his earthshattering manifesto - how many of his promises did he come good on?

Another one dumped effectively yesterday.
25

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 08:37:50
#21 - "The very idea of being shackled to a foreign power is too awful to contemplate"

This is the problem, the EU is NOT a "foreign power", we are the EU as much as France, Germany or Poland are.

#22 - Why dont you just shut up, you dont contribute anything to these forums, your not even funny. Ogh, missed our Labourr lies, re-referendum promice at last GE (dont know what the SNP have "lied" about??).


26

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 08:42:57
#24 - What has that to do this this topic???

Trouble with your labour spinners, you like to distort everything to avoid talking about the total mess you have left us in. You are morally bankrupt and cannot defend your position, so you just smear. Pathetic.
27

The Former Mr. Angry,

Perth 04/11/2009 08:54:53
We may not get a referendum on the Lisbon treaty so-called but we do need one on EU generally and I would regard this as a betrayal of our rights if he fails to offer this poll after so many years of the same kind of lying deceit from the Labour troughers.
28

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 09:09:48
#27 - I am interested to know what rights you think the EU is infringing upon? There is so much misinformation around this, I wonder. The right not to be forced to work more then 48 hours a week?





29

Alan B,

04/11/2009 09:16:32
#Mr. Angry

The problem is none of the major uk parties really support referendums other than for short term party political advantage.

Within the uk the only real mechanism to vote to leave the eu is UKIP and they have gain little support in uk general elections.

For the tories the problem is they think it would be an economic disaster for the uk to leave the eu but do not like the fact they do not control it and do not like some of the compromises the eu is about.
30

Alan B,

04/11/2009 09:22:23
Cannot see what the point in the tories having a referendum over lisbon is, when the treaty has already been ratified.

Having an in or out referendum is the only real option but the tories know that would be economically disasterous for the uk. Firstly due to the transition and secondly as a trading nation the uk would be held hostage to an trade deal the eu would subsequently offer the uk. Add to that the eu would be stupid not the make the uk sign up for much of the social regulations anyway.
31

ColinChoseTomForte,

04/11/2009 09:26:48
29 Alan B
The truth of the situation runs like this, there is no real mandate for referenda without an election first. Then you must take into account the majority vote in parliament. Referenda without elections are fantasies made up by the media in their wildest dreams. A referendum on a whim is no different than the media running your country.
32

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 09:37:44
#31 - The problem it is likely the "majority vote" in the commons will be from a party with less than 40% of the vote. At least a referendum gives a clear cut voice (snap shot admittedly) of the voters.

The Tories are happy to have a referendum on the EU treaty but not on Scottish Independance. Hypocrites.

33

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 09:40:13
#32 - Sorry should have said "were happy" rather than "are"
34

Mallory,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 09:57:30
Why would anyone expect anything different from any MP.

So Cameron has shown himself to be no different from the others in an obscene grab for power. Well DC may be rather alarmed when the pollsters and votes are counted.

And so will any MP who attempts to delay or change the Kelly report on moats, bungs and second jobs.

Brits , and some Scots perhaps, are fed up with the venal behaviour of politicians.

I suspect that UKIP and BNP will rejoice.

35

Alan B,

04/11/2009 09:57:33
#ColinChoseTomForte

Complete disagree.

A referendum is to allow the people to decide on an issue.

The idea that you need a parliamentary majority to have a referendum is daft.

While some people believe on in parliamentary democracy I strongly feel referenda have a role to play.

I personally like the US approach where referenda question can be added to elections etc. Obviously you need trigger mechanisms for referenda to be called.

For me direct democracy on major issues is far better than the party political approach we have.
36

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 10:15:02
-26

Can't you read?

It's a broken promise - I commented on SNP broken promises.

It's to do with, ahem, broken promises to the electorate.

Hope this helps clarify matters.
37

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 10:16:07
-25

Aah, the abuse, alongwith the anti-Englishness, that cyberNats never get involved with.
38

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 10:18:02
-28

You clearly don't have a clue. To question whether the EU's grip over us is ignorance, par excellence.

Brown tried to stop the break up of RBS, the issue was forced by the EU.

Clear enough example?
39

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 10:19:10
-32

Wise words indeed from a supporter of a party that promised an LIT yet ELECTED not to present their proposal before parliament.

40

Alan B,

04/11/2009 10:24:12
#WeeGirlie

While i should probably not rise to your bait as you are obviously trying to destroy this thread.

Remember the party worst for broken promises is labour.

Remember promises like:
-prudence
-golden rule not to borrow over the economic cycle.
-the reclassifications of spending to pretent he met the golden rule
-the change of the starting yr to again try to meet his golden rule
-then just completely breaking it
-have low national debt but then proceded to hide debt off balance sheet.

-what about the ones to clean up political funding - and then have to be investigated by the police and be the most corrupt government in memory
-what about the promises to clean up politics and then proceed to be the most corrupt in the expenses scandal.
-clean up politics but have 2 leader resign in disgrace and the current pm having broken the same rules mcleish resigned for.
-clean up politics but rehabilitate every wrong doing minister double fast.
-clean up politics but promoting wrongdoorer like murphy who double claimed for his constituency rent. how many muddles not a fiddle are labour going to claim.
- what about blairs promises to be tough on crime and the causes of crime. he has come and gone and the only thing from that was "a department not fit for purpose"
-even the manifesto commitment not to raise tution fees and then raise them as soon as they were elected (england).
-promises to have eu treaty referendum. another lie.
etc etc
41

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 10:53:58
#38 - The EU only imposed rules that the UK authorities refused to do when the bailouts where originally done. Everyone knew when Lloyds where forced to take over HBOS what would happen.



#37 - As usual you post a lie, I never mentioned anything about "English", and have never posted anything anti-english. Your were the one to try and turn it on the "cybernats". I was attacking your pathetic childish posts, only you would try and turn it round. Marks you out as a typical Labourite.



42

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 10:59:50
#39 "You clearly don't have a clue. To question whether the EU's grip over us is ignorance, par excellence."

Another prime example of why a referendum will descend into xenophobic rant. What "grip"?

43

danbob,

04/11/2009 11:01:13
Cameron feels he has the majority now to make his decision on this issue and no matter what the sceptics say, he feels that labour has made such a hash of the country he will win the election anyway. There I have said it. It's the truth. Welcome to the face of the next government and what we are in for. More of the same but with a different rossette. But hey dont worry. Because if you get all upity and vote labour or SNP you still wouldn't get a referendom vote.
44

Cassandra,

04/11/2009 11:11:54
Good heavens! I didn't know 'steamroller' was spelt 's-t-r-e-a-m-l-i-n-e'!
45

ColinChoseTomForte,

04/11/2009 11:29:40
35 Alan B
No one is saying a referendum isn’t to allow people to decide on an issue, it would be plainly daft to say otherwise. The idea that you need a parliamentary majority to have a referendum runs along on our principles of democracy with the majority of the people’s representatives carrying the vote.
I can’t make up my mind about the US approach of being able to add referenda questions to elections, major issues of such importance are usually big enough without the campaigning involved with the rest of the election. An indication of the difficulty faced by adding to an election must surely be seen in the light of the 2007 Scottish Election fiasco.
46

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 11:41:57
#45 - I think the US goes to far, i.e the fiasco in California where one proposition asked if they should provide more services and was passed, and another question asking if they were willing to pay more tax to pay for it, which was rejected.

The trouble with elections is the electorate!


47

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 12:05:47
-42

The kind of grip, over demands of Scots fishermen tie their boats up for longer and catch less.

Or how about the CAP, set from Europe. I thought the SNP disliked the CAP - perhaps you can update me.
48

WeeGirlie,

04/11/2009 12:08:18
-41

Here

"Aah, the abuse, alongwith the anti-Englishness, that cyberNats never get involved with."

The first post related to you, the second part (after the FIRST comma), related to cyberNatLand in general.

Please learn to read.
49

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 12:34:01
#47 - Its called conservation, not exactly a "grip" is it... left to the fisher men there would be no fish left in the sea. CAP is not perfect and needs constant tinkering to refect the changes in the fish stocks.

I dont have to agree with everything the SNP do, unlike what Stalinist Brown demands of his party members.

#48 - I know fine well what you MEANT. just what anti-english post have ther been today? It is an old unionist tactic to try and play that card, it is that best you can come up with?

And actually there are very, very few "cybenats" who post anything anti-English (if, in fact, the ones that do are "cybernats" and not unionist posters playing games - it wouldn't be the first time they did)
50

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 04/11/2009 12:44:03
European big projects are usually completed to time, to budget, to spec.. This goes against all City of London malpractice and how Purcell's Weegits do things. Kipper-faced Cameron will dither like sister Vince, dither like there's no tomorrow, while Unirea Urziceni shimmy on by.

The UK is so far coming apart at the seams, that no Skipper with a ticket would take it out of harbour -- in any weather.
51

Temple,

Italy 04/11/2009 13:03:49
very well , but i'm curious , since we have here supporters of the Conservative , Labour and so called no fish no meat Lib Dem somebody can tell me please why anytime the great great english empire follow the americans like a puppet ?
52

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 13:08:00
#47 - Almost fell into your trap, CAP as f-all to do with fishing, it is CFP you are talking about.
53

langtonian,

uphall 04/11/2009 13:21:54
As ever with "referenda" ANY" party that enmeshes it's policies,manifestoes,with the endless,unfathonable,unconstitunal,unwanted by the majority of UK voters;it is an act of political hari-kari by David Cameron to attempt to bribe, cajole, bully,any waverers to his lost cause of potentialy "total reliance" on a yes/no referenda debacle.Meanwhile forget all about the rest of ANY parties manifestoes,on that basis,in future each and every contentiouse subject matter would be "ripe pickings" for ;Oh! lets have a referenda";it is a potential escape route for the likes of the BNP or their ilk to ram through specific wish listings
;leading to dictatorship potential;such may be the David Cameron idea of the way forward for Democracy as it is now enshrined by political debate;If and when referenda rules the roost,I will give politics a pass bye from the other side of the street,purchase a 12 bore shotgun and be prepared my own defence against referenda maddened mobsters.

The fact that First Minister Alex Salmond put the "kybosh" on an SNP piece of referenda should penetrate David Cameron's myopic,pin brained putsch to re-jig the Lisbon Treaty,and 27 member states of the EEC has to be a folly to end all follies.

Time to exit stage left David ,you'r time is up.

Labour will win the 2010 Westminster election.
54

daveserviceman,

edinburgh 04/11/2009 13:22:08
Well the three main Parties have lost my vote and the SNP I will be voting for UKIP or the BNP it seems these are the only two parties willing to fight to restore britain back to its people
55

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 13:43:47
#544 = Go on, admit they never had your vote in the first place, you fascist.
56

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 13:46:54
#53 - Can I welcome John Prescot to this forum, your post was almost incomprehensable.

Apart from:

"Labour will win the 2010 Westminster election."

Made me chuckle a bit. You are in a fantasy land if you believe that.
57

Yeah1,

04/11/2009 14:11:18
#54

"Well the three main Parties have lost my vote and the SNP I will be voting for UKIP or the BNP it seems these are the only two parties willing to fight to restore britain back to its people"

Why would you vote for a racist party?
58

Alan B,

04/11/2009 14:53:31
#ColinChoseTomForte

Referendums in the uk have been used where parties are split on constitutional issues.

More recently they have been used just to reinforse a party political position.

It makes sense for issues like eu membership or the euro to have a referendum.

I disagree with referendum on a country by country basis for every eu treaty but support a eu wide referendum. Democracy is not about one single country rejecting a change and the vast majority having to go with the opinion of the single country.

But it would clear up matters for the uk if we were to have a clear the air referendum on eu membership. The tories in particular play the anti eu card but strongly support eu membership becuase of the damage they feel would be inflicted on the uk economy.
59

Pa broon,

Edinburgh 04/11/2009 15:17:00
While the Tories didn't promise a referendum under any or all circumstance. It would be nice if one of the parties actually listend to the electorate. Why do they think the likes of the BNP collect votes? It ain't rocket science to figure it out. Somebody please give me a say on my future and whether its in or out of the EU! Do I have to vote UKIP, because that appears to be my only choice; it would appear the so called mainstream parties don't want to listen to either the people or the opinion polls.
60

Alan B,

04/11/2009 15:30:06
#Pa broon

If you want out of europe then ukip is the only serious option.

I think the bnp vote will be little to do with europe but immigration and racism. Interestingly though the tories ran an election campaign round tight immigration controls but labour won that election and went for very lax immigration.

Unfortunately the media do not portray that as the people of this country choosing lax immigration at an election.

Although a problem is in many areas in the north of england tory is just not going to be an option to vote for. And labour were not exactly overly honest about their lax approach to immigration.
61

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 15:31:18
#59 - A referendum on whether we stay or leave the EU will never happen. We are in for good and it is up to us to make it work better.

62

Graecus,

Java 04/11/2009 15:40:56
Nittonlover - why are we 'in for good?' Are we not still entitled to vote for Mps, and are they not entitled to pass a referendum law? Maybe some ancient Briton said sadly, 'we are in for good,' until his great2 grandchildren saw the legions sailing home.
We shall be free again one day.
63

,

04/11/2009 16:05:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
64

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 16:08:08
If we could play the game as well as the French and the Germans the EU would be far better. 18 years of Tory sniping from the sidelines and not joining in on the process has damaged us in the EU and the EU itself. We are part of it so it is not "foreigners running our country", far from it.

I am not so caught up in the jingoistic idea of being British (or rather Scottish) not to see the benefits of being European.


65

Alan B,

04/11/2009 16:48:37
#NittonLover

"18 years of Tory sniping from the sidelines and not joining in on the process "

Do not know if that is entirely fair.

Firstly it was labour that were anti eec in the 70s the tories were pro eec.

Also the thatcher years were not anti eec. There are probably 3 issue from her time.

1)was getting the rebate. She won the battle but lost the war. But she was right. The problem was the uk was so desparate to join the french took the uk for a ride. Before the rebate the uk cross subsidised france. ie We were poorer than france at that time put in a similar amount but the french took much more out again via cap.

Even after the rebate the uk was still effectively cross subsidising a richer france. The rebate just reduced the amount.

2)the single market. here the uk/tories lead the way. It was france that were dragging their feet. The uk was one of the first to implement most of the single market.

3)the ERM. Here thatcher wanted to stay out, but the CBI, unions, labour by now and half her cabinet from hesltine, howe to lawson all wanted to join.

Joining the ERM was a bad decision. Made much worse by the mishandling of it. ie
a)joining when we were in a recession
b)joining at thatchers ego rate
c)joining around the time germany was about to reunify which would destroy the erm anyway.

The biggest problem for the tories was the Masterict treaty. That is where the real problems started for the tories and their anti eu stance came to the fore.

But again I do not think there were necessarily wrong. While i support the euro i do not think there should be any reason why it should be mandatory for every nation. The social chapter is a much more difficult issue.
66

The ex Pat,

04/11/2009 16:55:08
Politicians Guarantees ..... Guarantee NOTHING!
67

NittonLover,

Newtongrange 04/11/2009 17:31:11
#65 - I dont necesarly disagree with you but I am sure the rest of Euruope viewed dealing with Thatchers as "extremely hard work"...

I dont have a probem with the social chapter, its not right that French and German workers have more employment rights that us here, we all know where cuts are made first and it aint there.


68

Alan B,

04/11/2009 18:02:20
#NittonLover

The question is more whether the social chapter should be mandatory for every country or whether the democratic government of a member country should be able to opt out.

The single market is really a rightish wing free trade thing. And the social chapter is the compromise between left and right so that the left support free trade and not industrial protectionism.

As such many countries might not sign up to the single market if it was not underpinned by the social chapter.

But the problem i have with it is it imposes an economic model. It may be right or it maybe wrong. The problem is by having it as part of a treaty then it cannot be changed easily if wrong.

Employment rights have to be balanced with the flexibility of the labour market. There is no point in having say the previous french imposed 35hr week if it causes significantly higher unemployment.

I worry that the social chapter could weld a country and its economy to something that cannot be changed and updated/remodelled if it simply is not working.

You could argue if we had union laws like in the 70s in the uk then that would be detrimental to the economy. With social regulations then bound in a treaty then they cannot be changed.

Finally the other issue i have with the social chapter is it seems to be anti employment rights in many ways. It really depends on what you want from employment rights. I think they are more for the german working culture than necessarily other places. Partly that is becuase i like flexibility in my working practices and the social chapter is more about imposing more restrictive model which may work for some.

I do agree the with a light touch social chapter. It is good to have a common standard for health and safety in many industries.

"French and German workers have more employment rights that us here, we all know where cuts are made first and it aint there"

It can work both ways france and germany over the past period created far l
69

Alan B,

04/11/2009 18:02:34
...
It can work both ways france and germany over the past period created far less jobs but tend to loose less jobs resulting in higher levels of employment in the uk and higher unemployment in france.

70

Alan, New Zealand,

Leeds 04/11/2009 19:02:40
I was going to vote for the Conservatives at the next General Election, but not now. I will not be voting for the Political Cowards curently giving away our Power either.
71

Alan B,

04/11/2009 19:07:29
#70

What would be the point in a referendum over lisbon once the treaty comes into force?

Any treaty would have to be in or out. But the tories support eu membership despite all the moaning.
72

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 05/11/2009 08:53:22
Lisbon shows that the EU is going in the wrong direction however we Scots can only influence it properly as an independent state. Mr Cameron can still back a referendum in Scotland on independence and if he really respected our opinions, he would.

 

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