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Labour's secret whisky duty talks



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Published Date:
10 March 2008
LABOUR MPs have conducted secret talks with the Westminster government in an attempt to prevent whisky being targeted in the Budget, The Scotsman can reveal.
They decided to shun cross-party lobbying of the Treasury in the belief that the presence of opposition parties could "jaundice" delicate negotiations.

The revelation comes amid growing speculation that whisky drinkers will see the first increas
e in duty in a decade when Alistair Darling unveils his first Budget on Wednesday.

It is feared that health concerns about binge drinking will encourage the Chancellor to introduce an "across the board" increase in alcohol levies.

Normally the All-Party Scotch Whisky Group, involving representatives of all of Scotland's political parties, argues for the tax freeze to be maintained.

But this year Labour MPs Brian Donohoe and John McFall, both members of the group, decided without consulting the SNP, Conservatives or Liberal Democrats to have a private chat with junior Treasury minister Angela Eagle. This is understood to have taken place in a Commons tearoom.

Critics warn they will come down on the MPs "like a tonne of bricks" if the duty – currently about £5.50 a bottle or 27p for a pub measure – rises.

But Mr Donohoe, the group's secretary, told The Scotsman that they had had an "exceptional meeting" with Ms Eagle.

Defending the decision to meet her without non-Labour MPs, he said: "This was done quietly this year as a consequence of everything else that was going on. We believe there is still scope for the government to manage what they have had now for nearly 12 years, which is a freeze on spirits.

"We normally meet as a group with all the parties, but John and I felt in the circumstances that it would be best to keep the politics out of it," he said. "I think it has become absolutely essential that we maintained a low profile. She listened and took note that what we were saying was important."

But one critic said: "Who was at the meeting is not that important, provided we get the right result. But I don't regard it as a satisfactory way of doing business. The all-party group works very hard to try and make sure they don't run into party political issues, and this goes contrary to that."

Liberal Democrat MP Alistair Carmichael said: "Cross-party working is easy when there is no pressure. But it's clear there is a lot of pressure on the Treasury this year to end the spirits freeze, and that is when it can be more challenging.

"Inevitably it can mean government backbenchers giving the government ministers a message they don't want to hear. I fear that is the territory we are in this year."

The UK Exchequer takes around £600 million a year from whisky duties – £800 million when VAT is included.

The SNP has recently been split over maintaining the freeze while urging higher alcohol taxes to tackle Scotland's booze culture.

But the SNP Treasury spokesman, Stewart Hosie, said: "After years of Labour's economic bungling, Alistair Darling is now hitting the bottle to prop up UK finances.

"Just as we need an end to the discriminatory tax on Scotland's vital whisky industry, Alistair Darling is treating the industry as a cash cow."

'GAS-GUZZLERS' AND AIRLINES SET TO FEEL PINCH

A LEVY of £2,000 could be slapped on "gas-guzzling" new vehicles while airlines will be hit with duties to maximise the number of passengers as part of an expected "green" drive by the Chancellor.

The "showroom" levy on 4x4s and other vehicles in the highest tax category for emissions in Wednesday's Budget could also be accompanied by the issuing of colour-coded tax discs to make it easier for councils to levy higher residential parking permits.

Drivers already pay different rates for their vehicle tax discs, with those in the lowest emissions category being exempted and those in the highest of the seven bands paying £300.

Meanwhile, George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, said a future Tory government would declare "tough love" on welfare claimants: "We will be squeezing budgets like welfare, which are a drag on the British economy. The country has more children in workless households than any other in Europe. That is not acceptable. This is about tough love with welfare."



The full article contains 723 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 09 March 2008 9:25 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The Budget , Whisky
 
1

blueguru,

US 10/03/2008 00:10:58
Ironic that once more the Labour Party have been caught out by their inability to communicate with each other. On Thursday Bendy Wendy was decrying the SNP for wanting to freeze whisky duty - today we find out that Labour MPs have been campaigning to freeze whisky duty.

Thank God that they are no longer governing Scotland despite the best efforts of Gordon Broon to frustrate the democratic will of the Scottish People.
2

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 00:13:25
1. Yet another banal rant from yet another ex-pat nat.
3

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 10/03/2008 00:24:58
2

Yet another banal rant from yet another Labour prat.
4

Resolutions,

10/03/2008 00:31:06
Why did the talks have to be secret?

Are they ashamed of the fact they are Scots?

And are the so called binge drinkers, hitting the Scotch? I would have thought that it was out of price range anyway.
5

The Answer,

Glasgow 10/03/2008 00:34:41
Spirits duty !

Duty collected on spirits which includes whisky, gin, vodka, RTD ready to drink (alco pops).

2006/07
£2,256,000,000 (2.3 billion)total revenue from spirits.

288,299 hectolitres of whisky (25% of total)
866,452 hectrolitres of other spirits (75% of total)

Revenue from spirits whisky/other

£564 million from whisky (25% of total)
£1,692 million from other spirits (75% of total)

Revenue from whisky on scots based population share 8% of UK

£45 million from scotland's consumers @ 8% of population

£518 million from rest of UK consumers @ 92 of population

£46 million is a lot smaller than the nats so called billions!



http://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bullspirits
6

Richardinho,

10/03/2008 00:40:59
Probably sensible of these Labour MPs. If they involved the SNP, the danger is Brown, Darling and Alexander would regard Whisky as a 'nationalist shibboleth' and then probably increase the duty even further!
7

Senga Jean,

10/03/2008 00:46:20
#6 An intelligent answer (sic) would be aware that frinstance most gin and vodka in the UK is produced....yes indeed...in Scotland , alongside "Scotch" So the Nats (sic) are correct to talk of BILLIONS. In fact why does any sane person think that the Union gives a penny to Scotland?
8

Resolutions,

10/03/2008 00:57:46
Heard somewhere, that actually Scotch already brings in more to the London coffers, than the Oil.

They really cannot do without us for the gravy train can they?
9

,

10/03/2008 03:38:09
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10

,

10/03/2008 03:41:44
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11

,

10/03/2008 03:48:02
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12

,

10/03/2008 03:51:07
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13

,

10/03/2008 04:01:24
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14

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 05:37:22
#11 AM2
You make the common mistake of most socialist in measuring industry by only what you can bleed from it.
The 703 million pounds you claim as tax on Whisky in Scotland is only part of the story. The whisky industry employs people in Scotland that pay taxes on their earnings and pay taxes when they spend money. The whisky companys also by goods and services in Scotland that contributes to the local economy. Scotlands tourism industry also depends on Whisky for the tourists who come to sample Scotlands fine single malts. All this is a lot more than the 703 million pounds that you spout.
15

Geoff,

sa 10/03/2008 05:40:12
MacAlba 12-15-. If you believe inter alia, that Unionism is "UnScottish", that you cant wait until the SNP hold"absolute power" etc then with such extreme views, maybe you are not worthy of a "plausible response".
16

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 05:52:04
#11 AM2
That you would put much faith in the opinion of Standard and Poors whose reputation lies it tatters because of their risk assesments on Sub Prime Debt, shows how woefully ignorant you are. No one in the financial community puts much credence in their opinions. The other two assesments that you site by Oxford Economic Forecasting, the National Institute of Economic & Social Research are both institutions with a unionist axes to grind and both reports you site specifically ignored corporate taxes that would have to be payed by the Scottish subsidiaries of UK companies and the Oil and Gas royalties and taxes that would accrue to an Independant Scotland. As always the socialist doesn't understand business.
17

,

10/03/2008 08:19:35
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18

Guga II,

Rockall 10/03/2008 08:25:53
The forthcoming budget will be yet another tax and spend fest for the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party. The more so as the war criminal Maggie Broon has managed to get us into so much debt with his borrowings to finance things like his illegal wars.
19

Black Five,

edinburgh 10/03/2008 09:20:14
I don`t see the malt whisky drinkers causing problems at 3 in the morning.Another stealth tax by a incompetant government.If you want to stop the problem of the nuisance on the streets in the early hours ,why have these places open till then.The Palais in the old days shut at 1 ,so why not have it like that again.As for the kids who underage drink why not tackle the problem with action.That lot have no fear of the law and the public want something done about it.
20

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 09:27:18
Ah telt ye all yesterday Foulkes widnae be happy aboot this. Want tae bet he's leading this lobby?
21

Liberal for life,

Dunblane 10/03/2008 09:29:43
# 13 Macalba - you just suffer from the "stop the bus I want to get off" syndrome. The problem is what other bus is there for you to catch?

In a so-called "independent Scotland" we would have to rely even more heavily on our indigenous industries to fund our public services, so the taxes levied on the likes of the whisky industry would be even more, thats for sure (if not now, certainly when the oil rins oot). Get real ma loon!
22

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 09:30:22
#22
Agree whole heartedly, If there are a bunch of minors drunk and causing trouble, frogmarch them to the police station and keep them their till a parent comes to pick them up and pay their fine. Stop using underage drinking as a stealth tax grab.
23

Doh,

10/03/2008 09:43:23
#13

Unless you beleive Scotland should belong to the union.

Its time.
24

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 09:54:48
It seems that the Britnats on this forum are more than happy with the 570 billion debt that Gordon Brown and his sidekick Blair brought on the used to be United Kingdom.

They certainly proved their credability as business managers.

The UK is so far in the red, that it does not produce enough income to service its debts. Brown and Blair have sold everything including the kitchen sink. Thats why they dare not upset the Power generators or the English Water System or the international financiers who have funded our hospitals and schools etc on condition they get to charge 100's of billions more than the cost of building them. As I say they are certainly good business managers, that is if you are an international company Chief Executive wanting to report even higher profits than ever before.

The Scottish Oil and general Economy are what stops the whole house of cards from falling down. Scotland could settle its share of the Westminster mismanaged debts out of one years income and provide more Scottish Government Revenue than they presently get given back as pocketmoney if we behave ourselves and vote Corrupt Labour.

Brown is the dead man walking in Westminster, Michael Martin and the rest of the Labour Scum are just bum boys and girls licking up the leftovers. Brown himself will never come back to Scotland to live out his retirement. It surely wont be a long retirement if the Scottish People he has betrayed decided to seek compensation.

He will be out of his unelected office within the forseeable future and will be remembered as a traitor by future generations of Scots who will study his Chamberlain type failure at appeasing the American attempts to dominate this planet.
25

cabrach loon,

inverness 10/03/2008 10:21:41
Keep it up nulab and your red rabble, every racist decision like this is another nail in your coffin in Scotland. Only a Scots Nat Govt can provide Scotland with a fair deal for its citizens. Roll on the election and hopefully bye bye to Darling (anything but!), Broon and the rest of the self seeking career politicians with their lack of real work experience and commonsense plus I nearly forgot - Integrity!
26

Sgurr,

10/03/2008 10:28:16
Looks like Labour will add additional tax to whisky and the energy companies (who will simply pass it on to the consumer).....this is NOT going to be a budget for Scotland.
27

JimC,

Kilmarnock 10/03/2008 10:30:40
Meanwhile, George Osborne, the shadow chancellor, said a future Tory government would declare "tough love" on welfare claimants: "We will be squeezing budgets like welfare, which are a drag on the British economy.

If you have a problem Osborne then look at ways of creating decent jobs with decent wages. I am sick to death of these claims about the unemployed. Through globalisation this country allowed all our unskilled jobs to be hived off to places such as Poland, India, and the far east. Ironic that people from these countries now want to come here looking for work and a better life! So if the government gives you the minimum required by law to live on, just what are the Tories and Nu-Labour for that matter going to be squeezing? Eradicate poverty by 20?? my backside, many working for the NMW are now living in poverty.
28

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 10/03/2008 10:35:06
It is quite early here in Eastern Canada and we are still digging out from 52 cms of snow over the weekend and I have to read this dreck.

Simple solution: everybody switch to IRISH WHISKEY such as Bushmill's (yum, yum!) and boycott Scotch whisky.

Reading some of the postings is enough to drive anybody to drink - especially the self-serving rants from the lackeys of the SNP.
29

alanh,

ek 10/03/2008 10:35:42
as usual the nu lab mps are just out to point score by having their "secret talks"[so secret we read about it here]
that way if duty does not rise its them what did it.

if duty does not rise its because of the party politics of everyone else except them[ in their minds]
30

alanh,

10/03/2008 10:38:50
i wish you could edit in this forum.

end paragraph should obviously read "if duty DOES rise its because of the party politics of everyone else except them[ in their minds]"
in post #32 above
31

Miss H,

10/03/2008 10:48:54
The SNP has not been split over anything. That's going beyond spinning a story and into outright falsehood.

The SNP Government has made it very clear that they are targeting the cheap booze sales which fuel so much anti social behaviour. Unless Labour thinks that the neds and yobs who end the night by getting into a fight and pishing up your close have started it off by tucking into a single malt their point is utter nonsense. We all know what are the drinks of choice of those who drink to excess and it is not Scotch whisky.

Yet whisky is currently taxed at 1.23 times as much as the same alcohol in wine or 1.43 times the same in beer - and even more in relation to cheap white ciders. Now Labour want to increase the tax on whisky even further.

Where's the sense in that?


32

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 10:50:40
Just out of interest, how would an independent Scotland be able to prevent the UK/English government raising excise duty on whisky or any other product from Scotland it chose?
33

Miss H,

10/03/2008 11:03:21
They would not be able to apply a specificalaly higher excise duty to Scotland. The excise duty would be applied to all. The UK already has a higher rate of excise duty than most other EU countries. There would be no benefit for them in incresing it further.
34

The Answer,

Glasgow 10/03/2008 11:04:50
"35 Border Scot,10/03/2008 10:50:40
Just out of interest, how would an independent Scotland be able to prevent the UK/English government raising excise duty on whisky or any other product from Scotland it chose?"

Are you serious?

England will buy her whisky and any spirits duty and tax free just like every other country in the world.

It will then see what ever rate it desires.

£46 million is the total tax raised from scots @ 8% (population) from a max sum of £575 million .
35

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 10/03/2008 11:11:07
The levels of tax across the board in this country is criminal. This is particularly true where tobacco and alcohol is concerned. The situation with road fuel is just plain rediculous. Another thing that is plain rediculous is penalizing drivers of larger engined cars. The are already penalized by the criminally high rates of fuel tax and they do not need any further burden.

The road tax for ALL cars should be fixed at a reasonable level (say £100 per year) across the board. There should be no discounts or exemptions based purely upon engine size. Petrol and diesel duty should be halved. Alcohol tax should be brought into line with France and tobacco tax should be brought into line with Poland.

It is about time that all this brain-dead looney leftie madness stopped and that we returned to normality. The implications for this country if prices are kept articifially high by inane labour taxes are dire. We need to drop prices NOW across the board before it is too late.
36

Joanna,

Cambs, England 10/03/2008 11:31:44
Well said 38 - Fuelhead (like the name btw)

We are overtaxed in this country, well overtaxed on nearly everything. Our high spending Labour government sees to that and introduces stealth taxes wherever and whenever they think they can get away with it.

Darling's budget will be a shambles for the whole of the UK.

37

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 10/03/2008 11:38:52
Whiskey, oil, Petroleum distillates, food produced, electronics, manufacture in general, indeed all our resources, are sucked dry via taxes to our national core for our formidable national resources by the english system via westminster, which after being taxed on the tax on the tax, mis- managed and hidden in numerous policy accounts, the South of Britain reaps the financial rewards of our resources and labour, and they chose what crumbs to throw back at our table.

The area that generates, must reap this financial reward for community largley, and government partially.

This is because of and directly attributable to the union and it's parasitic architecture, in what ever words you care to dress the union in.

The solution is an independent Scotland in total control over our own resources and the taxing thereof.
38

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 11:39:19
#36 - They could apply a rate to Scotch whisky, which can only be made in Scotland. And there would be nothing that Scotand could do about it. I am guessing that the current furore relates to the fact that a Scotch exemption that has existed for the last decade may be about to go. Why there would hav ebeen any exemption in the first place is difficult to see if Scotland was independent.

#37 - Well, exactly. So those complaining that this is all an evil plot to hammer Scotland and so try to use it as a means to argue for independence are kind of missing the point. The tax exemptions that whisky currently enjoys are a specific union dividend as they mean the product is not as expensive as it would otherwise have been in its single most important market. That may change now, but an independent Scotland will not change it back.
39

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 11:43:44
#40 - So how would an independent Scotand stop England from taxing Scotch or any other Scottish product at whatever rate it wished? The tax rate in England is far more important to Scottish whisky producers than the tax rate in England because that is where they sell most bottles.
40

Alasdair,

10/03/2008 11:45:15
AM2 - I'll keep it simple.
Why did Ms Alexander speak out against the SNP wanting a freeze on whisky duty when members of her own party were asking for the same?
Is she
a) Ill-informed
b) Stupid?

Which is it?
41

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 11:54:09
#43 Alasdair

"Why did Ms Alexander speak out against the SNP wanting a freeze on whisky duty when members of her own party were asking for the same?
Is she
a) Ill-informed
b) Stupid?

Which is it?"

There is another explanation.

Perhaps it is desperate opportunism, due to them no longer having any kind of game-plan.

The Labour party are now relying on a combination of knee jerk reactions such as this (in hope rather than conviction), and co-ordinated personal insults, such as the co-ordinated references of "Mr Takeaway" and the like when referring to the First Minister. They have nothing else to offer.

The arguments have been won by the SNP, and it's just a matter of time before everyone realises.
42

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 11:54:36
12. Why do the nationalists continue to beat down their own country??

How the hell are we "subjugated by the UK"?

Where's your evidence of this?
43

Miss H,

10/03/2008 11:59:43
42 You can't set differential tax rates for different countries in the single market.
44

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 12:02:32
#42 - You can for different products or, more likely, you can remove existing exemptions.
45

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:03:41
By the way, I'm still, STILL, waiting for any evidence from the nats that support for independence is increasing.

Latest polls have it down on pre-election % despite nine long months of the SNP's increasingly bizarre and pointless attempts to provoke anger and resentment with the UK.

In fact, support for the status quo is up 5% on pre-election polls.

Only 0.5% of Scots have bothered to read the SNP's flagship and much-publicised White Paper on Independence (and this is the SNP's own figures, so you could probably halve that again).

Only 600-ish posts have been submitted to the SNP's much-publicised flagship 'National Conversation' in the last eight months, many from repeat posters and also unionists.

70% of voters, including SNP voters, think it was the unpopularity of Labour that got the SNP its one-seat majority, compared to just 16% who believe it was the SNP's 'promise everything to everyone' manifesto.

So, once again, I ask the nationalists to break the habit of a lifetime and actually provide some evidence that independence has "increasing support" from "millions of Scots" and is "inevitable".
46

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 12:07:51
#35
Once where independant they can tax their own people as much as they like. England is a small and declining market for Whisky sales. Asia and particularly India is where growth will come from.
47

Lady Golightly,

Manor House, Heart of England 10/03/2008 12:09:16
Oh dear, Carruthers, if the Scots are going to keep complaining about us I think we'll have to cancel the Scotch order and have the Bollinger and cognac instead.
48

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:16:39
448. Opinion polls are not the way to resolve Scotland's constitutional future, which is why the SNP is committed to a free democratic vote on the matter in a referendum.

However, from the Sunday Herald....:

"FIRST MINISTER Alex Salmond's plan for a referendum on independence has received a boost after a new poll showed a surge in support for a separate Scottish state. The latest snapshot has revealed that 40% of the population want the Scottish government to negotiate independence with the UK government, a figure that is up 5% in three months.

This contrasts with 44% of people who do not want Scotland to pull out of the UK, which is 6% down from August."

As for the National COnversation, it received 150,000 hits in its first month, quite remarkable for a political website.

49

Miss H,

10/03/2008 12:17:15
48 It’s all around you. The problem for people like you is that it is a process not an event. If you are waiting for one single moment when everyone says yes, that’s it, we’re going to become independent I don’t think that’s going to happen.

When did devolution become ‘the settled will’ of the Scottish people? Who knows – my guess would be some time around 1992 but there was no official point at which it happened was there? But it still happened - even after 1979 which we were all told has ended any hopes of Home Rule for Scotland.

In the same way, everything is moving Scotland down the road to taking more responsibility, having more autonomy – shifting the decision making back to Scotland instead of leaving it at Westminster. It’s not like anybody is actively saying we want the status quo. No-one is – every single political party in Scotland is committed to increasing the powers of the Scottish Parliament and Government. The traffic is all moving in one direction isn’t it?

What direction is that?

50

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 12:17:47
#41 Border Rot
Talking out your sphincter again I see. Assuming that both Scotland and England remain in the EU you could not charge excise at a different rate for Scotch Whisky than you would for Gin,Vodka,Ouzo, Schnappes of Grappa. You would be violating EU trade policy.
51

,

10/03/2008 12:18:22
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
52

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:18:44
49. I refer you to 48.

You really should be voting Conservative so that taxes will be cut and we'll all have some spending money for once.
53

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 12:19:07
#49 - So what's the problem then?
54

Miss H,

10/03/2008 12:19:08
47 What exemptions exist for Scotch whisky?
55

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:21:30
54. Thank you for your considered and insightful comments. Anyone who says Unionists cannot debate constructively or have nothing positive to add should read your posts.
56

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:22:58
55. Strange that the total tax burden or take as a % of GDP never declined during the Tories 18 years in office.
57

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 12:25:23
#41
Scotland could also cut the excise tax on alcohol by 50% and watch all the white vans coming across the border from England.
58

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:25:48
51. 150,000 hits?! Wow!

'Hits'. That must be the pointless statistic ever.

Unless, of course, you are now grasping at the straw that 'curiosity' about such a publicised website is actually support for independence.
59

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:29:04
59. The nationalist Ayrshire Scot states that Tax/GDP never declined under the Tories.

Reality says otherwise:

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/media/6/7/cb-4.gif
60

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:31:02
51. Yes, "hits" - the number of people visiting a website to peruse its contents. The National Conversation attracted 150,000 in its first month, alot for a political web site.

Coupled with the first SNP government in history, and SNP First Minister, the SNP now also being the largest party in local government, and Labour, the Tories and the Lid Dems all adjusting their policies toward greater devolution, it all suggests that the constitutional debate in Scotland is all moving in one direction - toward greater autonomy.

Your own shrill postings, laced as they are with a palpable despair, hysteria and panic, merely serve to emphasise this.
61

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 12:31:49
#53 - They can raise the duty without having to think about protecting Scottish jobs or Scottish businesses. Is there any other reason why there has been no rise in spirit duties in the UK for the last 10 years?
62

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 12:33:10
#57 - Exemption is probably the wrong word, but I was referring to an exemption from any tax rise over the last decade
63

Border Scot,

10/03/2008 12:34:31
#60 - Given the Scotland's own problems with alcohol that is an unlikely scenario.
64

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:36:32
63. Ah, the insults already. Marvellous.

I'll think you'll find (that's if you looked somewhere else other than here, the Herald, Wikipedia and SNP.org) that the devolution debate is UK-wide and is probably more about the English demands for their own parliament than anything Salmond says or does.
65

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:37:24
67. English Parliament and also equal public services, that is.
66

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:37:57
62. NO, I said that the Tories did not reduced tax as % of GDP. It rose during the first 10 years of Tory government, to a peak of 40%..... Thus your point that voting Tory for lower taxes is at right-angles to actual experience of Tory government which increased the total tax burden
67

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:39:32
62. Or, compare tax as % of GDP, 1979 vs 1995 ... which shows an increase of 2%, certainly doesnt suggest that Tories cut the total tax burden...
68

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 12:39:56
#66
The problem is with Cider and Buckfast. We could just ban them altogether the same way we ban Absynthe.
69

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:41:48
67. Strange, all your posts are about independence and the SNP, suggesting that this dominates the agenda, even for shrill unionists such as yourself.
70

Doh,

10/03/2008 12:44:33
#70 clarry

I support the Trump development as much as the SNP councillors that voted against it.

Anyway I realise you are a Labour plant, so please stop making the SNP sound intolerant and in the pocket of big business.

You are not Scottish you are a unionist.
71

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:46:58
74. and good afternoon to you, AM2.

I made the point that opionion polls are not the way the resolve Scotland's constitutional future, a referendum is. However, your posts also prove how independence is dominating the agenda and debate, so thanks anyway.

Hits, unique users.... either way the national conversation web site has seen considerable interest for a political website, no?
72

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 12:48:03
#74 AM2
It must have taken you some time to put together that list. Seeing as you work in the New Membership Department at John Smith House, I guess you have a lot of time on your hands.
73

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 12:48:08
#74 AM2
It must have taken you some time to put together that list. Seeing as you work in the New Membership Department at John Smith House, I guess you have a lot of time on your hands.
74

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:50:23
76. No one believes that the AM2 ever sleeps :-)
75

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 12:52:26
77. No, it hasn't.

A controversial report on this site will gather more posts in just 24 hours than the 'National Conversation' has gathered in its entire lifetime.

You can try and spin it as much as you can but the truth is that it is a non-event.

By the way, I was once a regular reader of that site, even a three-time contributor, until it became obvious that it was more a 'Nationalist Rant' than a 'National Conversation'.

So, in summary, STILL waiting for any evidence of increasing support for independence.
76

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:55:05
81. No, AM2, I posted the system three poll from the Herald, of not as it wasn't commissioned by a politica party and which showed like-for-like an increase in support for independence. Your frequent postings on independence do indeed show how that topic is dominating political think. Or do you just post on it complusively because of your belief in its irrelevance and improbability? What an odd habit...
77

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 12:57:00
82. So someone whho visited the national conversation and posted on it now says it didn't have any impact at all? WHat an odd argument...... Must have attracted you in some way?

We will all to have to wait for a referendum to test support for independence. Perhaps if unionist parties had the courage of the sound-bites they would support a free vote?
78

Lady Golightly,

Manor House, Heart of England 10/03/2008 13:14:07
AM2 @ 76

The reason the poster you have referred to posts so early in our morning is because he is 'down under'.

Which only serve to make his hysterical outbursts about the independence of another country even more hilarious.
79

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 13:15:47
85. Said Lady Golighty, posting about the independence of another country......
80

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 13:15:56
#85 Lady Golightly

"Which only serve to make his hysterical outbursts about the independence of another country even more hilarious."

And in commenting about Scottish independence, you are posting from where?
81

Lady Golightly,

Castle Ramparts, Highlands of Scotland 10/03/2008 13:18:34
Anywhere I like..... this is cyber space after all.
82

Alasdair,

10/03/2008 13:20:46
Come on AM2.
It's still an easy question - Why did Ms Alexander speak out against the SNP wanting a freeze on whisky duty when members of her own party were asking for the same?

Seems stupid or ill-informed to me. #54 offers another possibility, desperation. None of these reflect too well on these mugs.

Border Scot, maybe you can answer if AM2 isn't willing?
83

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 13:21:03
#88 Lady Golightly

"Anywhere I like..... this is cyber space after all."

So could you explain your own comment:

"Which only serve to make his hysterical outbursts about the independence of another country even more hilarious."
84

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 13:26:44
86 and 87. England is part of the UK, is it not? Isn't that the overwhelming problem of the nationalists?

However, countries that aren't part of the UK are the USA, Australia, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, New Zealand, Canada, France, Belgium etc where the 'ex-pat nats' are all posting from.
85

Sgurr,

10/03/2008 13:27:54
I suspect, given her logic, that Lady GoHeavily has been hanging around the internet terminals at 70 Norton Road, Stockton.
86

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 13:30:42
#91 Highland Mighty

Is Scotland, in your view, a country or not?

Does the debate around "Scottish independence" relate to the self determination of Scotland or of the UK?

Does a Scot living outside the UK have any less value than and non-Scot living in the UK?

Why would you suggest that those outside the UK have no valid opinion on the matter?
87

Lady Golightly,

Chateau Briand, Provence 10/03/2008 13:31:34
90

In simple language just for you:

I find the poster in question's outbursts very funny.

Please enlighten me where I made a comment about 'Scottish' independence. I didn't did I? You just assumed that I was English and got your hackles up didn't you?

Chin! Chin!

88

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 13:35:27
93. Read posts 86 and 87!
89

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 13:39:03
95? Post 86 comments on Lady golightly, posting from England, and commenting on someone lese posting from outwith Scotland.

Scotland and England are two different countries, don't you agree?
90

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 13:41:53
90 Lady Golightly

In a discussion about tax on Scotch whisky, any mention of "independence" can reasonably be assumed to be about Scottish independence. It would be a failure on your part not to have specified if you were referring to the independence of some other country not mentioned in this discussion.

I did not assume you were English, I was drawing attention to the double standards or hypocrisy that you were displaying in criticising someone's comments on Scottish independence (on the basis that they were from outside the country) while identifying yourself as posting from the Heart of England.

If I was misled, it was because you did the misleading.
91

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 13:43:40
97. Wow, I actually dozed off reading that post!
92

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 13:44:39
95 Highland Mighty

I presume that you have interpretted my comments as suggesting that those in England have no say on the matter of Scottish independence.

That is not the case.

I was highlighting that another poster view that the posting of someone from Australia was somehow less valid than everyone else.
93

kimba,

10/03/2008 13:46:10
What did you expect! whisky brings in 2 billion to the UK treasury,if darling has his way it will rise to 2.5 billion, as I think whisky is abhorrent don't much care,but there are some tarten taliban who do.
94

 Ayrshire Scot™,

10/03/2008 13:48:21
99. Given it is three lines, this will come as no surprise for anyone who is familiar with your mental acuity and debating skills.
95

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 13:48:36
#91
Don't forget Indonesia. I have nothing against English people who want to express opinions about Scottish Independance, it will affect them as well. I may live overseas but my estate will still be subject to IHT because it is based on Domicile. So I have a vested interest in whether Scotland becomes Independant or not. In all likelyhood an Independant Scotland would scrap IHT since it generates so little tax revenue in Scotland. There is also the argument that the expat Scot may return home, so us expat nats have as much right as anyone to express opinions about a country we love.
96

kimba,

10/03/2008 13:55:37
103. "country that we love", not as much as money apparently; if you really loved you country you would stay no matter what!
97

Richard,

west lothian 10/03/2008 13:55:56
Highland Mighty = Braveheart Ex of the Herald forum ( HE RAN AWAY. A BIT LIKE GRAHAMSKI HAS JUST DONE ON THE HERALD THREADS)!

A has been numpty Labour councilor HAHAHAHA!
98

Highland Mighty,

10/03/2008 13:56:01
101. No, it doesn't! It is a £2bn industry in a £1.3trillion economy, that's about 0.1%.

It's a very minor sector of the economy.

Only the increasing deluded nats actually believe that this props up the UK.
99

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 10/03/2008 13:56:59
#101
Not surprising, Scotch Whisky has always been appreciated by the discerning palette. You have always struck as a Carling Special kind of girl.
100

Talorthane,

10/03/2008 13:57:04
#104 Kimba

That is one of the most ignorant posts I have seen yet.
101

kimba,

10/03/2008 14:00:07
107. Wrong again, brandy and babycham or if skint black and tan!
102

The Answer,

Glasgow 10/03/2008 14:00:08
"kimba,10/03/2008 13:46:10
whisky brings in 2 billion to the UK treasury,if darling has his way it wi