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Gaza plunged into darkness as Israel shuts power plant



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Published Date: 21 January 2008
GAZA'S only electrical plant shut down last night after Israel blocked the shipment of fuel for it, plunging the area into darkness and sending beleaguered residents to stock up on food and batteries in anticipation of long, dark, cold days ahead.
Israel was condemned by a UN agency and human rights groups, but government officials said the move was a response to Palestinian militant groups that fire rockets at southern Israel every day.

Israel sealed all crossings into Gaza last week becau
se of a spike in rocket barrages, cutting off fuel. Several weeks ago Israel reduced the supply as a pressure tactic.

In addition to the fuel it receives from Israel to power its electrical plant, Gaza gets about two-thirds of its electricity directly from Israel. Israeli officials promised that supply would not be affected.

Hamas officials shut down the plant and plunged Gaza City into total darkness, said Gaza Energy Authority head Kanan Obeid. Minutes later, Gaza residents started a candlelight march as a protest.

The regular fuel shipment from Israel did not arrive yesterday because the fuel terminal was closed, and the plant has nearly no reserves, said Rafik Maliha, director of the power plant.

Health Ministry official Dr Moaiya Hassanain warned that the fuel cut-off would cause a health catastrophe. "We have the choice to either cut electricity on babies in the maternity ward or heart surgery patients or stop operating rooms," he said.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel accused Hamas of creating an artificial emergency. He said the blackout was "a Hamas ploy to pretend there is some kind of crisis to attract international sympathy".

Late last night, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas appealed to Israel to lift the blockade, said Abbas spokesman Nabil Abu Rdeneh. Abbas effectively rules only the West Bank after Hamas expelled his forces from Gaza last June.

Residents of Gaza City were buying up batteries and candles, as well as basic foods like rice, flour and cooking oil, said grocery store owner Sami Mousa. More would be doing the same, he said, but "the problem is that the people don't have the money to buy". Bakeries stopped operating because of the blockade, bakers said, because they had neither power nor flour.

The Hamas-linked Popular Resistance Committees threatened to break the blockade by crashing through the border with Egypt "by force".

There were no signs of panic, as Gazans have been living with fuel cutbacks, power outages and shortages since Islamic Hamas militants overran the seaside territory in June, triggering international sanctions.

Earlier, Obeid called on householders to cut back their use of electrical appliances. The UN organisation in charge of Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, warned the Israeli blockade would drastically affect hospitals, sewage treatment plants and water facilities.

"The logic of this defies basic humanitarian standards," said Christopher Gunness, spokesman for the UN Relief and Works Agency.

Human rights groups also condemned the fuel cut-off. Oxfam called it "ineffective as well as unlawful". Gisha, an Israeli group that has fought the fuel cutbacks in Israel's Supreme Court, said "punishing Gaza's 1.5 million civilians does not stop the rocket fire; it only creates an impossible 'balance' of human suffering on both sides of the border."

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, but many see Israel as still responsible, since it controls most land, sea and air access to the territory.

Israeli Cabinet minister Zeev Boim said that rather than condemning Israel's move, the UN should condemn Palestinian militants for subjecting Israeli civilians to barrages of rockets. "I don't hear the UN's voice," Boim said.

ROCKET ATTACKS TEST PATIENCE
ISRAEL has previously pledged that measures against Gaza should not cause "a humanitarian crisis". But Israeli officials say 2,000 rocket attacks have been launched from Gaza since Israel withdrew from the area in 2005.

Although Israel no longer occupies Gaza with troops, it retains control over the airspace and the coast, and over its own border with the territory. It also controls the flow of goods.

Israel wants to avoid major incursions if possible. The Geneva Convention states that an occupying power is obliged to protect civilians. But Israel has never accepted that it should apply in the Palestinian territories, arguing that the convention refers to occupied state sovereign territories.



The full article contains 721 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 January 2008 12:46 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Middle East conflict
 
1

macdonaj,

Winnipeg Canada 21/01/2008 01:13:30
So much for the utterances of Bush and Condi Rice.He had not even left the Middle East before the daily slaughter
of the Palestinians resumed.
Israel continues unabated to build more and more illegal
settlements and continues to kill those who resist.
2

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 01:51:18
i remember as a 15 yer old witnessing the awful zionists displacing palestinians from their ancient possesions grinning and capering around the bundle laden carts of the poor mothers and children they were dispossessing from 67 till today i have longed to see redress and have taken every exsample of such however small or imperfect as a HOLIDAY IN MY HEART
3

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 01:57:07
macdonaj,

When Palestinian terrorists attack Israel from Gaza, it isn't resistance to settlements. The only settlements in Gaza are the Palestinian ones. The terrorists want to destroy Israel and kill those who resist.
4

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 02:23:15
beit shemesh or whatever its name was before it was stolen from those to whom it rightfully belonged is a settelment only the guilt and shame you know you should feel but cant stops you from recognizing it as the plain fact it is to the rest of the world
5

John Blackley,

Florida 21/01/2008 02:40:59
To those who see this as just another unwarranted attack by Israel on the helpless Palestinians: Tell me - what would you do to an anonymous group of people who persist in firing explosive rockets at your town?

Please omit from your answers, "Give back the settlements" - that's irrelevant as the limited closure of settlements already taking place has produced no lessening of rocket attacks and, even if Israel were prepared to give back every single one it would take a great deal of time.

Tell me, instead, what you would do now to reduce or eliminate these rocket attacks.
6

,

21/01/2008 02:44:20
Comment Removed By Administrator
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7

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 02:47:26
further you seem outraged(or you feign it)that the zionist leibensraum is violently opposed by those who were ethniclly cleansed to facilitate its creation although it seems wrong to use a noble word like creation whe describing such a sordid act
8

,

21/01/2008 02:49:02
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9

Tyson J.,

Canada 21/01/2008 02:56:36
This electrical plant had plenty of fuel the day before Israel started the blockade ... where did it go? Gaza is not in darkness.
This is Palestinian propaganda, the article is probably written by a Palestinian reporter as there are no foreign reporters in Gaza so lots of bias here. The electrical plant supplies a little less than one third of electricity to Gaza, Israel supplies the other two thirds and it is still supplying it to Gaza.

The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank suggests that Hamas has been stealing much of the fuel for militant's vehicles and home heating.

After a week in which 160 rockets plus mortars were fired at Israel I wouldn't be supplying Gaza with anything. Let them get what they want through the Egyptian border.

It's time the Hamas leaders looked after the so called Palestinian people instead of using them as pawns in their game of violence.
10

,

21/01/2008 03:12:04
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11

boston bhoy,

21/01/2008 03:45:25
I seen on tv, hospitals without power,babies that where on respirators, their perants having to pump oxygene by hand. People not been able to have heart surgery. Petrol stations not working. Israel needs to conform to UN resolutions or else it should face sanctions from the rest of the world
12

George F,

Saginaw 21/01/2008 04:00:17
#10 Wally, you said "The Israelis kill 50 times as many Palestinians as the Palestinians kill Israelis. and this ratio has been going on for about 2 years".

If that's the case mate then it shouldn't be to long before it's all over. I wonder at the ages of some of the posters on here, for the posters of say my own age (51) you have short memories if you feel sorry for this lot, the Palestinians. The following link might refresh your memories. Me I say good luck to Israel.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/israel-terror.htm
13

Jasper42,

21/01/2008 04:54:36
Wally #10: You forgot to mention that in 2007, in Gaza alone, 500 plus Palestinians, including women and over 30 children, were killed by their fellow Palestinians in intercine warfare, some being thrown off of the top of buildings, some beaten to death, etc.
14

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/01/2008 06:38:10
#6 - thewitness:

thewitness - in Post #6, you use the statements of a UN official to lend credibility to your anti-Isreali position:

"UN Official: Israel Violating Geneva

"Recent action violates the strict prohibition on collective punishment contained in the Fourth Geneva Convention," (John Dugard, UN special rapporteur on the human rights situation in the Palestinian territories)

Yet in our discussion on 'The Scotsman' only 4 days ago:

http://news.scotsman.com/world/Hamas-chief39s-son-among-19.3675814.jp

In comment #39 you stated:

"The UN is a criminal network, a sickness and a pushover for the Zionists."

How do you reconcile these to apparently contradictory positions?

I asked you to do that numerous times, and you have failed to answer.
15

Let's have the truth,

21/01/2008 08:04:52
These tin pot rockets , in the main fall harmlessly causing pockmarks in the Negev desert.
16

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 21/01/2008 08:06:20
"Gaza plunged into darkness as Israel shuts power plant"

....Oh to have such power over one's enemies.
17

Media 1,

cape town 21/01/2008 08:11:20
The way that Israel treats Palestine is Hitler like.
The palestinians are caged, tortured and cut off from the rest of the world. They are treated like animals by a barbaric Israeli army whose human righs record is appalling.
This must end!
I am not going to stand here and defend Palastine either, no way! Neither of these nations is free of blame, both are a grave danger to world peace and both should be dealt with accordingly.
Ideally, we should build a wall around both nations, cut off their power, place sanctions on both and let them kill each other without the rest of the world needing to suffer the consequences.
Israel should know better than to torture, cage and persecute the Palestinians.
Dont tell me that Israel is protecting itself.
Did Britain carpet bomb Ireland everytime an IRA bomb went off in London?
18

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/01/2008 08:50:35
#12 George, I had a little wager with myself before opening your link - I bet that whatever this description of terrorism in the middle east said, it started the story in the 60s. And I was right - what a shock. To understand the present we have to understand history, and that means ALL history, not just the history which agrees with our point of view.

A true examination of terrorism in the middle east would start far further back, at the very least the time that Britain held sway in the area. British occupation was brutal and unmerciful. The UK slaughtered tens of thousands to maintain power, bolstered tribal leaders who could be controlled, and created a false politics propped up by violence. When the British gradually withdrew, they left behind a powder keg with the fuse lit.

And let us not forget the foundation of the state of Israel. We like to pretend today that the world came together in the aftermath of the Holocaust and agreed to create a homeland for the persecuted. Nonsense. A violent, bloody and desperate terrorist campaign was waged by Jewish groups to force the hand of Britain and the rest of the world. Many hundreds died in terrorist attacks perpetrated by those who would go on to rule Israel, long before the PLO was even dreamt up.

Partial histories do no-one any good. Please don't promulgate them.
19

lielayer,

21/01/2008 09:22:41
Oxfam International calls on the Government of Israel and on Palestinian armed groups to immediately cease violence directed against civilians. The escalation of Israeli military action and Palestinian rocket attacks is having devastating consequences for ordinary people.

Under international law, all parties have a responsibility to protect civilians. This includes allowing unimpeded access to Gaza for supplies to keep essential public services like electricity and water functioning.

The Government of Israel must ensure that essential fuel supplies flow through the oil pipeline immediately and without interruption. Gaza’s water network is at breaking point. Oxfam’s partner in Gaza, the Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, normally runs over 130 water wells, together with sewage treatment plants and other facilities. CMWU said on Sunday morning that water and sewage systems for one and a half million people in Gaza will stop unless fuel arrives by Tuesday.

Gaza’s electricity power plant has already run out of reserves of fuel. One turbine has been turned off and the final working turbine will have to be shut down today (Sunday) unless new supplies of oil are provided.

After six months of blockade by the Israeli government it is clear that this continuing act of collective punishment is ineffective as well as unlawful. It has not prevented the rocket and sniper attacks on Israeli civilians.
20

,

21/01/2008 10:14:07
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21

lielayer,

21/01/2008 10:49:58
Oxfam International calls on the Government of Israel and on Palestinian armed groups to immediately cease violence directed against civilians. The escalation of Israeli military action and Palestinian rocket attacks is having devastating consequences for ordinary people.

Under international law, all parties have a responsibility to protect civilians. This includes allowing unimpeded access to Gaza for supplies to keep essential public services like electricity and water functioning.

The Government of Israel must ensure that essential fuel supplies flow through the oil pipeline immediately and without interruption. Gaza’s water network is at breaking point. Oxfam’s partner in Gaza, the Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, normally runs over 130 water wells, together with sewage treatment plants and other facilities. CMWU said on Sunday morning that water and sewage systems for one and a half million people in Gaza will stop unless fuel arrives by Tuesday.

Gaza’s electricity power plant has already run out of reserves of fuel. One turbine has been turned off and the final working turbine will have to be shut down today (Sunday) unless new supplies of oil are provided.

After six months of blockade by the Israeli government it is clear that this continuing act of collective punishment is ineffective as well as unlawful. It has not prevented the rocket and sniper attacks on Israeli civilians.
22

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 11:11:44
britfree, re #4,

Thanks for writing about my home town.

Like everywhere else in the world, Beit Shemesh has changed hands many times.

As far as I know, the earliest evidence of significant settlement here is Canaanite, going back to the Middle Bronze Age (1750-1550 BCE) (see http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/projects/proj_bethshemesh.html and http://www.indiana.edu/~relstud/betshem/background.shtml ). Beit Shemesh means "house of the sun", and it was a center of sun worship perhaps even predating the Canaanite period, as suggested by a prehistoric megalith circle nearby.

In the Israelite period, Beit Shemesh was a city in the territory of the tribe of Judah, near the border with Dan. (See Joshua 16.) It is also mentioned (in Joshua 23) as a priestly city. It is mentioned a number of other times in the Bible.

The city was destroyed during the Babylonian conquest, and not rebuilt until modern times. During the entire Second Temple period, as well as under occupation by the Romans, Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, and British, the city lay in ruins.

Some stones from these ruins were used in the construction of a few small Arab villages located nearby, such as Dayr Raban, Dayr Rafat, and Ain Shems or Ain Shams, which preserved the original name of the city in an Arabized form. Ain Shams was abandoned in the 1800s, probably because of lack of water.

I suppose one could say that the residents of these villages, and in particular Ain Shams, "stole" Beit Shemesh "from those to whom it rightfully belonged", but this would be rather ungenerous. The truth is that, like the Israelis who re-established Beit Shemesh in the 20th century, the Arabs also built their villages on unpopulated land. I doubt that they had much more reason to feel "guilt and shame" than we do.

Here is a really fascinating book from 1911 that describes the archaelogical dig at Ain Shems/Beth-Shemesh: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_page.pl?DPI=10
23

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 11:12:35
continued...

Here is a really fascinating book from 1911 that describes the archaelogical dig at Ain Shems/Beth-Shemesh: http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_page.pl?DPI=100&callnum=DS111.A1P28&object=47

Aside from the text, the book includes some great contemporary photographs of Ain Shems/Beth-Shemesh and the surrounding area. It is clear from these photographs, as well as accounts written at the time, that, as cliche as it sounds, the area actually was a barren wasteland when Jews started resettling the area in modern times; we did not steal it from anyone.

As for modern Israeli history, according to http://www.shemeshdirectory.co.il/about_bs.php , "the city was established anew on Chanukah, 27 Kislev 5701 (Dec. 12, 1950) by Olim [immigrants] from Romania, Iraq and Iran. On 13 Tammuz 5751 (June 25, 1991), the Israeli government granted Beit Shemesh official city status."

Beit Shemesh is a settlement? No more so than, say, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Nablus, Jericho, or Camelon.

Speaking of which, I hope you'll share with us the history of Camelon, the "settlement" in which you live.

Was it founded by Roman occupiers, and if so, from whom did they steal the land? Or was it founded by the Picts? Whatever happened to them, anyway, and how were they displaced by Scots during the Gaelicisation of your country? Tell us also about the city's history under the Angles and Britons, and how Camelon disappeared from the history books for about 1500 years. (Beit Shemesh similarly "disappeared", but for about 2500 years.)

Do share your city's bloody history with us. No doubt it will help you work through the obviously painful feelings of guilt and shame that you carry around with you and project onto others.
24

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 11:23:55
Media 1: "Did Britain carpet bomb Ireland everytime an IRA bomb went off in London?"

Did the IRA bomb London with hundreds upon hundreds of rockets, the way Palestinian terrorists are now attacking Israel? No, but someone else did. Who was that? Oh yeah, Nazi Germany. What was Britain's response?

And by the way, Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza; it has never carpet bombed anywhere, ever.
25

,

21/01/2008 12:00:11
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26

,

21/01/2008 12:04:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
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27

ex-labour,

21/01/2008 12:04:12
23 SMG,Beit Shemesh,
Are you suggesting that we should now bomb Rome? Germany? What does your 'good book' say about how to treat fellow humans?
28

Media 1,

cape town 21/01/2008 12:07:08
Ex-Labour

I personally agree that Israel is terrorising Palestine. But I dont agree that the world should support Palestine in this war!
I believe that this conflict has gone on for so long that the reasons, the blame and the solutions are impossible to determine. All the world should do is turn its back on both nations.
Israel and Palestine are evil, barbaric nations who promote murder, terror and war at all costs. Both nations are as bad as each other and both deserve to be ignored by the international community.
But since the Jewish network around the world is strong, it will be sometime before that happens! But it will happen
29

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/01/2008 12:09:52
#18 I have reported one comment, because it was hate speech. Not several, one. I didn't "have them deleted", I reported it as hate speech.

Yes, obviously I am a Nazi. Well spotted. Idiot.
30

Newman!,

21/01/2008 12:14:52
#24 The Germans did use collective punishment against the French population following attacks by the French resistance. This is remarkably similar.
31

Wally,

By The Rivers Of Babylon (USA) 21/01/2008 12:22:55
Jasper 42 in 13:

The warfare between Fatah & Hamas occurred because the US & Israel both gave weaponry, money & military training to Fatah and encouraged the warfare. Fatah took part of the Palestinian government by force. Hamas was elected legitimately.
32

,

21/01/2008 12:32:26
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33

,

21/01/2008 12:37:30
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34

,

21/01/2008 13:12:46
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35

Calev,

London 21/01/2008 14:22:29
Workers in the Israeli city of Ashkelon ensure that Gaza continues to receive 70% of its normal electricity supply - even though they come under regular rocket attack from Gaza!
The blackout in Gaza is caused by Hamas - not Israel.
Editor of The Scotsman, Mike Gilson, used to be highly respectful of trade unionists and workers' rights. If he remains true to those ideals perhaps he could direct his foreign editor to arrange an interview with Miko Zarfati, chairman of the workers' committee at the Israeli Electric Company.
36

lielayer,

21/01/2008 14:51:34
Oxfam International calls on the Government of Israel and on Palestinian armed groups to immediately cease violence directed against civilians. The escalation of Israeli military action and Palestinian rocket attacks is having devastating consequences for ordinary people.

Under international law, all parties have a responsibility to protect civilians. This includes allowing unimpeded access to Gaza for supplies to keep essential public services like electricity and water functioning.

The Government of Israel must ensure that essential fuel supplies flow through the oil pipeline immediately and without interruption. Gaza’s water network is at breaking point. Oxfam’s partner in Gaza, the Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, normally runs over 130 water wells, together with sewage treatment plants and other facilities. CMWU said on Sunday morning that water and sewage systems for one and a half million people in Gaza will stop unless fuel arrives by Tuesday.

Gaza’s electricity power plant has already run out of reserves of fuel. One turbine has been turned off and the final working turbine will have to be shut down today (Sunday) unless new supplies of oil are provided.

After six months of blockade by the Israeli government it is clear that this continuing act of collective punishment is ineffective as well as unlawful. It has not prevented the rocket and sniper attacks on Israeli civilians.
37

Media 1,

cape town 21/01/2008 14:56:32
If there is one thing I cannot stand. It is people who report threads as unsuitable. None of mine have been removed, so this is not about me..
This is about those narrow minded and pathetic people who cannot allow others to express their views. A person should have the right to hate, and the right to express that hate! We can then identify those people for their hatred and decide how we want to handle the situation. We either engage in conversation with them, or we dont. And I dont just mean on here, I mean in general life!
How dare anyone ask for another posters remarks to be removed. It reeks of narrow mindedness and dangerous ideology.
38

lielayer,

21/01/2008 14:57:05
Oxfam International calls on the Government of Israel and on Palestinian armed groups to immediately cease violence directed against civilians. The escalation of Israeli military action and Palestinian rocket attacks is having devastating consequences for ordinary people.

Under international law, all parties have a responsibility to protect civilians. This includes allowing unimpeded access to Gaza for supplies to keep essential public services like electricity and water functioning.

The Government of Israel must ensure that essential fuel supplies flow through the oil pipeline immediately and without interruption. Gaza’s water network is at breaking point. Oxfam’s partner in Gaza, the Coastal Municipalities Water Utility, normally runs over 130 water wells, together with sewage treatment plants and other facilities. CMWU said on Sunday morning that water and sewage systems for one and a half million people in Gaza will stop unless fuel arrives by Tuesday.

Gaza’s electricity power plant has already run out of reserves of fuel. One turbine has been turned off and the final working turbine will have to be shut down today (Sunday) unless new supplies of oil are provided.

After six months of blockade by the Israeli government it is clear that this continuing act of collective punishment is ineffective as well as unlawful. It has not prevented the rocket and sniper attacks on Israeli civilians.
39

lielayer,

21/01/2008 15:02:22
24
SMG

"Israel isn't carpet bombing Gaza; it has never carpet bombed anywhere, ever."

By killing civilians in Lebanon, Israel is breaching all the treaties and international humanitarian laws that stipulate that it is only legal and ethical to attack valid military targets by distinguishing them and attacking them separately (i.e. dividing a district containing several military objectives into sub-targets and consequently attacking each target separately, rather that attacking the whole area). Israel is using what is often called in the war dictionary “carpet bombing” or “area bombardment”.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/07/beirut-bleeding-law-under-attack-in.php
40

Media 1,

cape town 21/01/2008 15:04:34
I dont hate Israel. I hate the way that Israel treats the Palestinian people! I also hate the way the Palestinian's react to Israel.
I hate the fact that Israel and many prominent Jewish people spend millions of dollars reminding us about the holocaust, yet they support the Israeli government in their terror campaign against Palestine.
I hate that the world has not yet closed all their doors on Israel and ignored her for the beast that she is. I hate that Palestine is still in talks with the west. Why should we bother with these bl00dy people who cannot bother about themselve or others?
41

lielayer,

21/01/2008 16:17:02
40
Media 1

"Why should we bother with these bl00dy people who cannot bother about themselve or others?"

Estimates for Israel's nuclear weapons stockpile range from 70 to 400 warheads.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
42

,

21/01/2008 16:23:33
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43

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 16:48:30
@42 what a joke myposts dissapearing faster THAN enough the zionists nver like truth and use every manipulative trick to browbeat moderaters editors into deleting fair comment......cmon they were NOT offensive !!! RESTORE MY POSTS
44

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 17:04:26
ok iget it better that beit sheeeeeeeeeesh betters britfree with deletions than britfree humiliates beit sheeeeeeeesh with history
45

,

21/01/2008 17:06:58
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46

scotinbc,

bc canada 21/01/2008 18:36:56
Don't they have a police force in Gaza/rest if Palestine? Why can't they police themselves. Stop civilians parading in the streets armed and firing weapons.Sending suicide bombers into Israel. Perhaps if they did this Gm, Ford, Toyota, etc might want to build factories and put a few of these people to work. Guess that's out of the question.
47

,

21/01/2008 18:42:50
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48

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/01/2008 18:52:49
#20 - thewitless

>"It's not up to me to answer for the inactions of the UN, i only posted their "WORDS"!"

No, the statement: "The UN is a criminal network, a sickness and a pushover for the Zionists." is clearly YOUR statement!

Later, you use them as an authoritative source when you QUOTE them in post #6!

>"UN Official: Israel Violating Geneva"

- So out of one side of your mouth you claim that they are 'a pushover for Zionists' and have no credibility,

- then out of the other side of your mouth you quote them as a creditable source!

You can't have it both ways, which way is it?
49

ex-labour,

21/01/2008 18:55:08
The Scotsman Administrator should at least have the courtesy to provide the posters reason for requesting deltions.
50

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/01/2008 19:07:31
#49 - ex-labour

>"Nice one, Scotjew"

I thought that you guys presented yourselves as 'anti-Zionist' - you use the word 'Scotjew' as an insult?

Shouldn't you have said 'ScotZionist' if you are trying to present yourselves as anti-Zionist?

Nope. You're merely Jew-haters.
51

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/01/2008 19:14:54
#46 - scotinbc

>"Don't they have a police force in Gaza/rest if Palestine? Why can't they police themselves. Stop civilians parading in the streets armed and firing weapons.Sending suicide bombers into Israel."

Excellent question!

>"Perhaps if they did this Gm, Ford, Toyota, etc might want to build factories and put a few of these people to work."

Not only them, but couldn't some of their Arabian allies with billions of oil $$$ also begin investing in infrastructure and jobs?

>"Guess that's out of the question."

Unfortunately, you're probably correct. As long as people live in hate they will live in fear.
52

Reading Public 1,

Wisc 21/01/2008 19:15:41
#3, SMG, normally I think you have a pretty good understanding of the situation but this statement is way in left field.
53

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

21/01/2008 19:16:05
#50, what's wrong with being a Jew Hater?
54

Horrible Cankers..dans le Cyber Shebeen,

21/01/2008 19:18:01
42 thatscottishwoman

I agree, I've never seen a comment removed at the freehootsman just because it was negative toward Jews.
55

Reading Public 1,

Wisc.#24, SMG 21/01/2008 19:23:14
I fear you are misinformed. Israel used carpet bombs in the last conflict, regardless isn't it about time they got serious about a peace.
These rockets are at best large firecrackers compared to the missiles Israel is using. They are very unreliable and without proper guidance, in any case they are a poor at temp on the part of the Palestinians in frustration to defend themselves. Enough is enough.
56

boudica,

21/01/2008 19:37:18
Hamas are once again making up stories to get sympathy from the Leftist halfwits in the West and once again the BBC forget to mention the continous rockets that are being fired daily into Isreal daily ...Hamas is holding back the reserve fuel for themselves and covert operations and causing this themselves and you can be assure if the IRA were firing Rockets into Britain on a daily Basis ..there wouldnt be much left standing in NI but here we go again the Palistinains men can shed tears at the drop of a hat and in the past this tactic worked but we now know those "Tears " are crocodile tears and all for the cameras of the Pallywood production team .people seem to forget that these Extremists are a dab hand at Propoganda because the Leftist LiberaL Bams fall for it ...Hamas have killed far more of their own than Israel has that is an Islamic thing they are wiping one another in their Hundreds of thousand all over the World as in Darfur , Sudan , Algeria , Iraq but somehow that by passes the Looney leftist Liberals who do nothing but make excuses for their Bloodlust and if they have their way would do the same here in fact they do .. Honour killings are now a regular occurance in the UK the majority tip toe around this subject for fear of being called Racist but even that now is wearing thin as we are all sick to death of the Islamo Nazi`s and the warped veiw of life .
57

boudica,

21/01/2008 19:48:09
Reading Public ...Israel as tried and tried to make peace but the Palistians keep moving the goal posts even in 1948 they were accused of running the Muslims out but as History as proved it was their leaders lying to them and telling them that the israelis were raping and murdering their woman and children As reported in the April 2, 1998 issue of the Jerusalem Report revealed that Hazem Nusseibeh, who was the editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948 admitted that he was instructed by Palestinian leader Hussein Khalidi to falsify the claims of atrocities at Dier Yassin with the intent to encourage Arab regimes to attack Israel.

Nusseibeh said he met with survivors of Deir Yassin and with Hussein Khalidi and in collusion with them created the story. He said he recalled that Khalidi said to him:"We must make the most of this".
they are still doing it today and ignorant people like you beleive it
58

Dáithí,

San Jose 21/01/2008 20:04:40
#53 & 54

>"what's wrong with being a Jew Hater?"

and

>"I agree, I've never seen a comment removed at the ... just because it was negative toward Jews.

Well, then it looks like you found yourself a home, troll.
59

Duncan in Edinburgh,

21/01/2008 20:22:42
#57 I'm sorry but it is simply beyond reason that you should suggest that the state of Israel was trying to make peace in 1948. It was to all intents and purposes a terrorist state at that time. What revisionist history is this?
60

Lynne,

USA 21/01/2008 20:53:58
Not to worry anymore..Israel has agreed to ease the Gaza Blocade.. even though it probably was not as bad as it was made out to be. After all, the Palestinians have a very good PR firm. The Israelis should learn to use it. Boudica..#56 and 57 is right.
61

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 21:05:51
ex-labor, re 27: Bomb Rome? Germany? I don't understand. Are you now under attack from Italy or Germany?

ex-labour: "What does your 'good book' say about how to treat fellow humans?"

There are lots of good books and they say lots of things. If you are a Christian, you revere many of our good books, including them as part of your own Bible.

The rest of your Bible is also entirely or almost entirely a product of Jewish authors living in Eretz Yisrael, and thus, most of its ethical principles are restatements of principles stated in earlier Jewish texts and deeply rooted in Judaism.

One relevant passage in this case is "habah lehargecha, hashkem lehargo" (derived from Deuteronomy 22:26), which expresses the basic principle of self-defense against murderous attackers that is a cornerstone of civilized law everywhere, even in Scotland.

Newman!, re #30,

It isn't similar at all. German collective punishment involved things like murdering the entire population of whole villages, and raping, torturing and killing random people.

We don't do that stuff.

(Interestingly, an Israeli graduate student with an over-active guilt complex and no common sense recently suggested that Israelis are racists because of the *lack* of rapes by IDF soldiers. According to the loony-tune theory, since rape is very much the norm among armies of occupation, the fact that we don't do this is a sign that we have dehumanized the enemy, blah blah blah. You can read all about it at http://www.fatjewishguy.com/stupid-forwards-my-mom-sends-me/jews-just-cant-win/ and here is a satirical article based on the same story http://israelisatirelab.blogspot.com/2007/12/sociologist-uncovers-new-israeli.html )

And the way Israel's enemies are constanting drawn like magnets to the Nazi comparison is very telling. You want to say we're overly militant and aggressive? That we've made mistakes and missed chances for peace? That the occupation of Judea and Samaria lasted far too long? That Is
62

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 21:09:48
continued...

That Israel never should have built settlements in those territories? That we discriminate against minorities? That we use torture? Collective punishment? Fine -- there are a thousand and one comparisons one could draw for any and all of these things, from both democratic and autocratic countries. So, why the Pavlovian resort to Nazi comparisons that are so obviously overblown and inappropriate, when far better comparisons exist?

The reasons are deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic psychology of the accusers and have nothing to do with our behavior. We can discuss this at greater length another time.

Britfree, re #34: "hey beit shamesh the arab name suited it fine"

Yes, it did. Likewise the Roman name "Caledonia" suits your country fine, even though at other times it was known by various other names, such as "Britannia", "Pictland", "Alba", and "Scotland".

When Beit Shemesh was populated by Arabs, it was quite natural that they would use the language they brought with them from Arabia, and we can all be grateful that they chose an Arabic name that more or less preserved the original Canaanite/Hebrew meaning. (Ein Shams is actually "Well of the Sun", not "House of the Sun", but it's close enough.) But the Arabs left Ein Shams in the 1800s, and now the population is mostly Jewish, so it's natural that the name would revert to its original Canaanite/Hebrew form.

Britfree: "as for the rest well thats just a desperat effort to justify its theft by some ex-euoropeans"

LOL. Beit Shemesh is a lot of things, but European it isn't. To be sure, some -- not all that much -- of the population came from various European countries, but most consider those to be countries of exile. They know that their homeland is Israel. As I wrote, the modern town was founded by immigrants from Iraq (not many European types there...), Iran (likewise), and Romania. Yes, the latter is a European country. In the early 1960s, the many Jews came here from Morocco, and t
63

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 21:10:38
continued...

In the early 1960s, the many Jews came here from Morocco, and they dominated the city until recently. Even today, Moroccan hamulot control many of the local businesses, as well as City Hall. About 15 years ago, there was a large influx of Jews from English speaking countries, including some from Europe (mostly England, plus a few from Ireland and yes, Scotland), but more from North America. We also have many from South Africa, Australia, and probably New Zealand, too. At around the same time, the city absorbed many immigrants from the former Soviet Union (some European, some not) and Ethiopia. Jews from France are also coming in large numbers, no doubt because of growing anti-Semitism in that country. Beit Shemesh has also become popular with native Israelis -- mostly young families from Jerusalem, where apartments tend to be smaller and more expensive. thewitness will be happy to learn that some of these are from the extreme "Neturei Karta" sect or similar and related groups. They may consider themselves the "Guardians of Jerusalem", but the overcrowded, expensive capital cannot meet the needs of their large families. Naturally, as they leave the conflines of the Mea Shearim neighborhood and cities such as Bnei Brak, they cannot help but to be somewhat more influenced by modern Zionism. In addition, Beit Shemesh is somewhat of a regional center, and thus attracts people from surrounding towns and moshavim. Most of them are native Israelis whose families came from Morocco, Kurdistan, India, Iraq and Yemen.

Britfree: "as for cameleon ithink youll find nobodys stealing anybodys house round here we are all considered to be scots here and so unlike the robbers nest you live in we dont racist up the neighbourhood"

LMAO. You're kidding, right? No? Believe me, nobody's stealing anybody's house around here either. We are all considered to be Israelis here, and we don't "racist up the neighbourhood", whatever that means. (Are you sure English is your na
64

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 21:11:23
continued...

(Are you sure English is your native language?)

Britfree: "btw asking if i know scots history is pretty silly if you want a lesson in sub-roman history id have to charge you the same as any other student its a professional thing"

Don't do me any favors. From what you've already written, I can tell you haven't the faintest idea what is the difference between history and the rather malevolent fairy tales you'd like to believe.

lielayer, re #39, either you don't know what carpet bombing means (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing ) or you don't know what's happening on the ground, or both.

Media 1, re #40, from a pure Realpolitik point of view, we Israelis should be more than happy for you and the rest of the world to leave us and the Palestinians to settle this dispute ourselves, without any outside intervention. But what do you think would be the result?

By the way, I think your attitude largely stems from the inordinate hyperattention that we attract, completely out of proportion to objective conditions. This hyperattention to everything related to Israel is largely a result of the mythical place that, for better and more often for worse, "The Jew" holds in the Christian and Muslim psyches.


There are far, far more bloody conflicts going on in dozens of places around the world but, for whatever reason, the problems of Muslim insurgents in the Philippines, the Tamils in Sri Lanka, revolutionary groups in Peru, Kurdish separatists in Turkey, the Chechnians in Russia, the various sides in the conflicts in Somalia, Darfur, Balochistan, Kashmir, Iraq, Uganda, Waziristan, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Ogaden, South Thailand, Western New Guinea, Chad, etc. etc. don't attract the same sort of sustained interest by the international community.

There is a double standard at work here -- a Christian/Muslim fascination with Jews as unreal, mythological characters. And this affects not only the religious, but secular people in Christian
65

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 21:12:04
continued...

And this affects not only the religious, but secular people in Christian and Muslim countries, as well. In far too many people's minds, we're not regular folks like themselves, with all the normal range of good and bad that one expects to find in any human population. Rather, they see us as the heroes and villains of their morality plays, and thus Israel is portrayed as doing no wrong or, more often, no right. The main thing is that whatever a Jew does -- whether defending or attacking or just living a normal, everyday life, is imbued with far more drama and significance than the same actions done by people in the Philippines, Sri Lanka, Peru, Kurdistan, etc.

The wacko writings of Wally and thewitness are extreme versions of this, but even factual reports and reasoned criticism of Israel can be examples of this double standard at work when they crowd practically all other issues off the international agenda. (The UN Human Rights Council's monomania regarding Israel is a notorious example of this, and has so completely discredited that organization that both Kofi Annan and Ban Ki-moon have spoken out against it.)

thewitness: "Funny, i have never seen a comment deleted for hateful speech about muslims or christians, mmm?"

I recommend the deletion of a comment that was bigotted and hateful toward both Israelis and Palestinians.

Reading Public 1, re 52, what specifically do you object to about my #3. What is "way in left field".

Reading Public 1, re 55, see my comment to lielayer, above. No, Israel has never carpet bombed anywhere.

Is it about time we got serious about a peace? It's about time everyone did. From my point of view, though we've made mistakes and probably missed some opportunities here and there, in general we've always been serious about peace.

Could we do more for peace? No doubt we could.

It doesn't help that you belittle the rocket attacks. These "large firecrackers" kill people. Yes, they are, thankfully, infe
66

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 21:13:02
continued...

Yes, they are, thankfully, inferior to Israeli weapons. I do not believe, as some here seem to think, that we are under any sort of moral or legal obligation to meet our enemies attacks with identical counterattacks. We're not about to put bombs in their restaurants, schools, buses, etc., in the hope of killing as many civilians as possible. At least I hope not. And the proper response to the large and sometimes deadly "firecrackers" that they aim at our civilian population is not to aim similar "firecrackers" at their civilians, but rather to apply overwhelming force against legitimate military targets, in particular the leadership that has brought so much suffering and misery both to their own people and to ours.

Reading Public: "[Palestinian rockets] are very unreliable and without proper guidance"

Correct. And because they cannot be effectively aimed at legitimate targets, but can only be aimed at wide areas where they fall rather randomly and tend to hit civilians, their use is a war crime.


Reading Public: "in any case they are a poor at temp on the part of the Palestinians in frustration to defend themselves. Enough is enough."

I agree. These weapons and the conflict that they perpetuate serve no practical purpose and cannot succeed. It is time for Palestinians to come to terms with the fact that another people also has a just and legitimate claim to a homeland in what they call "Palestine". It is time for them to realize that, the more they fight, the more they lose. It is time for them to take responsibility for themselves and their fate, and to consider that their children and ours have a right to grow up in peace and without fear. It is time for them to realize that the only acceptable way forward is through a negotiated mutual agreement that requires painful compromises on their maximalist positions and does not completely satisfy either side. It is time for them to choose peace. Enough is enough.
67

ex-labour,

21/01/2008 22:01:00
Well, well, SMG - wonder how long you'll leave this one on.

You sure have a big chip on your shoulder. The Palestinians have a rightful claim to the land they were removed from - you and your likes, on the other hand, lay claim through belief in a supernatural thing that spews all the rhetoric of terrorism and territorialism. You have learned no lessons from history and and your diaspora seek to limit democracy and freedom of speech throughout the world. You will never get the support of upstanding, honest and fair peace-loving types. You depend on the likes of America where you have a powerful voice, but Bush has blown their credibility. When oil has run out or totally inaccessible do you think the Bushes and Blairs of this world will support you. Think on. 'Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself' - put yourself in the Palestinians place.
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ex-labour,

21/01/2008 22:11:23
62# 'The reasons are deeply rooted in the anti-Semitic psychology of the accusers and have nothing to do with our behavior. We can discuss this at greater length another time.'

Could you explain 'anti-semitic psychology'?

Anti-semitic is a relatively new term and it is the constant whinging of semites that gives it its linguistic power. There is no such thing as 'anti-semitic psychology' outside the semitic psyche. So, please, gees a brek from your rantings.*
69

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 23:16:29
ex-labour: "Well, well, SMG - wonder how long you'll leave this one on."

I have no plans to recommend the removal of your fetid brain-turd. You'll have to clean up after yourself.

ex-labour: "The Palestinians have a rightful claim to the land they were removed from"

As do we. Looks like there's gonna have to be some agreement to share.

ex-labour: "you and your likes, on the other hand, lay claim through belief in a supernatural thing that spews all the rhetoric of terrorism and territorialism."

Most Jews, Palestinians, and Scots believe in the same "supernatural thing".

Zionism is at least as justified as any nation's movement of national liberation, and Jewish national rights in and to our homeland have do not depend on any particular religious beliefs.

Meanwhile, Palestinian nationalism as far more intertwined with extremist religious views about a "supernatural thing that spews all the rhetoric of terrorism and territorialism" than Zionism ever was.

The bottom line is this: We're not asking you or anyone for permission to return to our homeland and build there an independent state that gives expression to our right to self-determination. You can like it or not; don't expect me to care any more than you might care if I disapproved of Scotland's existence or your existence in that country.

ex-labour: "You have learned no lessons from history"

Oh, we learned many things, indeed. But maybe not the lessons you would have preferred. What did you expect us to learn, that exile from our homeland and stateless dependence on the mercy of people who hate us is a wonderful way to live? If you learn some wonderful anti-Zionist lessons from Jewish history in the diaspora, I suggest you convince your fellow Scots to uproot yourselves voluntarily and live as we did, as a persecuted and oppressed minority repeatedly moving from one exile to another. Do that for about 2000 years and then get back to me. I'm sure it will be an ennobling experience th
70

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 23:18:33
continued...

Do that for about 2000 years and then get back to me. I'm sure it will be an ennobling experience that you'll wish to continue eternally rather than re-establishing self-rule in your long lost homeland.

ex-labour: "and and your diaspora seek to limit democracy and freedom of speech throughout the world."

Zzzzzzzzzzz Your anti-Semitic whinging bores me.

ex-labour: "You will never get the support of upstanding, honest and fair peace-loving types."

We already have it, thank you very much.

ex-labour: "You depend on the likes of America where you have a powerful voice, but Bush has blown their credibility. When oil has run out or totally inaccessible do you think the Bushes and Blairs of this world will support you."

LOL. Yeah, that makes sense, because Israel has SO MUCH oil, while the Arab states, not to mention the US and UK, have hardly any at all.

ex-labour: "'Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself'

Look who's spewing religious rhetoric now?! What happened, a sudden conversion to belief in the "supernatural thing that spews all the rhetoric of terrorism and territorialism"?

In any case, thanks for the quote. So said a famous Jew born on a West Bank settlement. And, quite rightly, he said "this sums up the Law and the Prophets" (i.e., the Hebrew bible). His was an almost identical restatement of what another famous Jew, Rabbi Hillel the Elder, had said a few years earlier: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."

And both statements were based on earlier biblical statements such as Leviticus 19:18 and 19:34.

ex-labour: "put yourself in the Palestinians place."

Funny, that's just what you accused us of doing!

The truth is that there is a lot more of this "putting yourself in the other side's place" than you realize. And yet, here we are, locked in this outrageously wasteful, stupid, pointless conflict.

We're not
71

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 23:19:27
continued...

We're not going away, and the Palestinians say they aren't either. So obviously some sort of compromise has to be worked out. The moderates on both sides are actually a whole lot closer to doing this than you might think. Attempts by people like you to delegitimize one side don't help. Your rhetoric only encourages Palestinian radicals to continue their impossible "armed struggle" which of course causes plenty of pain and suffering to Israel, but causes far more suffering to Palestinians.

Ultimately, this radical refusal to come to terms with Israel represents a strategic threat to the Palestinian cause. There is no guarantee that struggles such as theirs will succeed, and many on all sides (including Palestinians themselves) are starting to wonder if they've missed the boat as far as achieving a sovereign, independent state in Palestine is concerned.

In the meantime, as long as they continue to attack, you'd better believe that we're going to continue to defend ourselves.

ex-labor: "Could you explain 'anti-semitic psychology'?"

No, I cannot. Anti-Semitism may be a new term, but it describes one of the most ancient hatreds known to man, and it isn't given to rational explanation. But if you wish to learn more, I suggest starting with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
72

,

21/01/2008 23:23:06
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73

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 21/01/2008 23:29:47
thewitness, re 72,

LOL. Thanks, but alas, it says "UK addresses only". I'll have to stick with melatonin.
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ex-labour,

21/01/2008 23:34:42
SMG '... I suggest you convince your fellow Scots to uproot yourselves (voluntarily)??? and live as we did, as a persecuted and oppressed minority repeatedly moving from one exile to another. Do that for about 2000 years and then get back to me.'

There has to be good reason to be so hated and persecuted after being booted out of your 'own' land.
Scots, on the other hand, have their own diaspora and very well-intergrated it is too.

'Most Jews, Palestinians, and Scots believe in the same "supernatural thing".'

Just because others have a similar irrational belief in the same fairy tales does not give you 'a right to self-determination. It is society as a whole that grants these rights. And, as you should know, when a society decides it has made a big mistake, things change.

'LOL. Yeah, that makes sense, because Israel has SO MUCH oil, while the Arab states, not to mention the US and UK, have hardly any at all.'

Israel was set up by the West to attain and maintain a foothold in the Middle East. Like I said, when the oil runs out........

Must be a really over there.
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ex-labour,

21/01/2008 23:35:01
Must be really lonely over there
76

britfree,

camelon 21/01/2008 23:40:29
beit shlomeil if this post makes it past your guilty rage take this for free you only makeyour own propaganda.he worlds disapprobation is YOUR place in history
77

lielayer,

21/01/2008 23:41:30
64, 65
SMG

"lielayer, re #39, either you don't know what carpet bombing means (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpet_bombing ) or you don't know what's happening on the ground, or both.!"

"Reading Public 1, re 55, see my comment to lielayer, above. No, Israel has never carpet bombed anywhere."

The Israeli invasion of Lebanon 1982

Chris Giannou was a Canadian surgeon working in Lebanon at the time of the Israeli invasion. His testimony later to the United States Congress makes grim reading.

He reported that “he was witness to four prisoners who were beaten to death.” That he witnessed “the total devastation of residential areas and the blind, savage, indiscriminate destruction of refugee camps by simultaneous shelling and carpet bombing from aircraft, gunboats, tanks and artillery,” leaving only “large blackened craters filled with rubble and debris, broken concrete slabs and twisted iron bars and corpses”; “hospitals being shelled”, one shell killing 40-50 people ... He saw “the entire male staff” of the hospital being taken into custody, leaving patients unattended, and “savage and indiscriminate beatings” of prisoners with fists, sticks, ropes with nuts and bolts tied to them. He saw a Palestinian doctor hung by his hands from a tree and beaten and an Iraqi surgeon “beaten by several guards viciously, and left to lie in the sun with his face buried in the sand” – all in the presence of an Israeli Colonel who did nothing about it.

http://www.doublestandards.org/rose1.html
78

,

22/01/2008 00:12:57
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79

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 00:22:12
ex-labour: "There has to be good reason to be so hated and persecuted after being booted out of your 'own' land."

Ah, so now you are proposing that antisemitism is rational and justified? That's a good one. Very classy of you. Is that one of the "lessons from history" we were supposed to learn? Is it what "upstanding, honest and fair peace-loving types" believe? Is that the conclusion you'd come to after putting yourself into our shoes? Is it your personal example of how one should "do unto others as you would have done unto yourself".

You might think there has to be some good reason for antisemitism, but actually, as it turns out, there doesn't. Antisemitism is quite impermeable to reason.

ex-labour: "Scots, on the other hand, have their own diaspora and very well-intergrated it is too."

Well, goody for you. But what does that have to do with us?

ex-labour: "Just because others have a similar irrational belief in the same fairy tales does not give you 'a right to self-determination."

As I said, our rights do not depend on any particular religious beliefs.

ex-labour: "It is society as a whole that grants these rights. And, as you should know, when a society decides it has made a big mistake, things change."

That's not really how things work. When did society grant Scotland or the UK the right to self-determination? Why wasn't I consulted? And when does it come up for renewal? But as a metaphor, it will do.

For about 2000 years, Israel was ruled by a succession of foreign occupiers, starting with the Romans and ending with Great Britain. But after WWI, "society", in the form of the League of Nations, agreed to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in what was then called Palestine. After WWII, this was reconfirmed by "society" in its new incarnation, the United Nations, which then recommended that separate Jewish and Arab states be established in Palestine.

Thus, the independent State of Israel was declared and established in 1948.
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SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 00:22:51
continued...

As you said, "society" decided that Jewish homelessness was "a big mistake" and so things changed.

ex-labour: "Israel was set up by the West to attain and maintain a foothold in the Middle East. Like I said, when the oil runs out........"

An interesting theory. Well, not actually that interesting. It really makes no sense at all. Consider that oil wasn't even discovered in Saudi Arabia until 1936 -- almost 20 years after the Balfour Declaration. As usual, rational discussion probably won't have any effect on your preconceived notions. All I can tell you is that you are hallucinating if you think Israel is all about the West's need for Arab oil, and if you're counting on Israel -- a country that has no oil but is a leader in the development of solar energy -- getting weaker and the Arabs stronger "when the oil runs out", you're in for a big disappointment.

ex-labour: "Must be really lonely over there."

Here at the virtual crossroads between Asia, Africa, and Europe? Here where pilgrims, tourists, businesspeople, and visiting scholars flock from everywhere, and immigrants arrive from the four corners of the earth? Here in one of the most urbanized countries in the world? Here where so many conquering armies have marched and the next invasion always seems close at hand?

Lonely? Hardly! In fact, not nearly lonely enough.
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ex-labour,

22/01/2008 00:43:02
But oh so deluded
82

,

22/01/2008 00:44:21
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83

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 00:54:47
lielayer, I didn't say that Israel was never accused of carpet bombing. That would be silly; we see such accusations on this very page. I said that it never carpet bombed.

According to Wikipedia, Dr. Chris Giannou is "reputed to be one of the only non-Palestinians to have sat as a member of the Palestine National Council".

Now, I have no idea if Giannou really said what the website to which you linked claims that Noam Chomsky's book claims that Chris Giannou said. But even if all this is true, it just means that one man -- a member of the Palestine National Council! -- used the term "carpet bombing" in an offhanded way while testifying to the US Congress about his impressions of the Lebanon War.

Not exactly an unbiased source, let alone solid proof of anything.

thewitness, re #78, nowhere does the Talmud say "thou shalt not kill a Jew." (Where, other than vile antisemitic hate sites, do you even come up with this stuff? Do you just make it up as you go along?)

As a matter of fact, neither does the Torah say "Thou Shalt Not Kill". What it says is "Thou shalt not murder". The "kill" thing is a mistranslation, which should be obvious when you consider that the bible permits killing in self-defense, prescribes capital punishment, and does not outlaw war.

It should be needless to say, but with you it apparently isn't, that "thou shalt not murder" refers equally to Jewish and non-Jewish victims.
84

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 01:17:15
ex-labour: "go back to your (c)oven"

VERY NICE! What a special guy, making this nice pun essentially telling Jews that they are witches and belong in ovens.

How charming.

Folks, see what we're dealing with?

Actually, I feel worst for the Palestinians. Whatever just claims and reasonable demands they have get completely blocked out by the radical extremism and anti-Jewish hatred promoted by "friends" such as ex-labour, thewitness, and Wally.

My Palestinian friends realize that these Nazi types have no use for Arabs or Muslims, feel no sympathy for Palestinians, and are only drawn to the Palestinian cause because it provides an opportunity to attack Jews. They know how easy it is for bigots like ex-labour to manipulate the masses, whipping them up into an anti-Jewish frenzy, and how much damage this causes to their people's image.

Of course, the encouragement of Palestinian intransigence is, first and foremost, damaging to the Palestinians, themselves, but in the end, it hurts us all.
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Lynne,

USA 22/01/2008 01:55:51
Ex-labor...we HAVE learned a very valuable lesson from history.. It is NEVER AGAIN. Never again will Jews allow ANY people to attack without defending ourselves. THAT was the most important lesson.
And if you think c(oven) was a smart remark.. it only goes to show how sick you really are.
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britfree,

camelon 22/01/2008 02:07:45
beit shlamoo archbishop desmond tutu that well known nazi type has a few words to say about the paralells between the aparteid state and the zionist state you cant hear them because youre deaf with guilt and made uncomprehending by greed for yet more palestinian land
87

,

22/01/2008 02:32:50
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,

22/01/2008 02:39:06
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89

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 03:56:20
thewitness, re #87: "I just asked a question and you go nuts spouting your anti-goyim hate"

What in the world are you talking about? You did not just ask a question, you lifted from some Nazi website a misquote misattributed to the Talmud. Don't pretend this is innocent.

As for "anti-goyim hate", I don't have any, and the term doesn't even make any sense. "Goy" just means nation or people, and by the way, the Torah refers to Israel as a "goy", too. Bet you won't learn that on your Nazi websites.

thewitness: "We can let the readers make their own minds up."

Well, yes, the readers who are capable of reading a 12,000-page document in ancient Aramaic can read the Talmud themselves and make their own minds up.

thewitness: "Your anti-semite/hate charge is like a broken record."

Yes, because your antisemitism and hate are like a broken record.

thewitness: "I am not here to speak up for Palestinians, i feel threatened by your 'Rogue State' here, where i live. There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that the crooks running your rogue state have commited terrorist acts inside my country, Scotland."

There is more than circumstantial evidence to suggest that the crooks running your rogue state have committed terrorist acts inside my country, as well. But the UK need not worry about Israel. We have good relations, today, and hope to keep them that way and to improve them.

But you, thewitness, you should worry. We're coming to get you... ;)
90

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 04:09:02
britfree,

I hear Archbishop Tutu loud and clear. His record on issues of concern to Jews and Israelis is very much a mixed bag, and a number of his statements can charitably be called misguided and insensitive, at best.
91

britfree,

camelon 22/01/2008 04:12:42
beit sloopooo iam here to stand against your vile hatred of palestine but like the above poster ido see your state as a rouge terrorist threat to world peace you wont hear any of this deaf deaf deaf
92

Cyril,

New Zealand 22/01/2008 04:28:36
As a former British war veteran it should be ovious to anyone in the know that there will be no peace in the Middle east as long as Israel exists so please support Hamas and Hezbollah.
93

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 05:15:07
britfree, re 91, my vile hatred of Palestine? I have no idea what you are talking about, but, you know, whatever.... Rouge [sic] terrorist threat? I hear you fine, I just have no idea what you are trying to say.

You seem to be afflicted with some irrational obsession about Israel. I can't help you with this, except to recommend professional help.

Anyway, please go right ahead standing on guard against whatever threats, real or imaginery, you perceive. Knock yourself out.
94

,

22/01/2008 06:22:07
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
95

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 07:20:52
thewitness: "At last, we see your true colours. Thank you."

Yes, that's right, you uncovered the plot. Israel, Zionism, and the Jewish people worldwide are focussed on one true goal: to get thewitness... You should be very, very worried.

In fact, if I were you, I wouldn't go outside today. You never know who might be lurking out there. Might as well stay home and catch up on your Daf Yomi. How's that coming along?
96

lielayer,

22/01/2008 09:07:39
83 SMG

"As a matter of fact, neither does the Torah say "Thou Shalt Not Kill". What it says is "Thou shalt not murder". The "kill" thing is a mistranslation, which should be obvious when you consider that the bible permits killing in self-defense, prescribes capital punishment, and does not outlaw war."

In actual fact, the English translation 'kill' in KJV is more accurate.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html
97

britfree,

camelon 22/01/2008 12:01:57
beit madeupname its not irrational when you wereso busy ranting last night you missed deleting my earliest post which gave exactly that rationale so crazy with unaknowledgable guilt you miss what the most of us learn at our mothers knee DONT STEAL OTHER PEOPLES STUFF
98

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 13:51:30
lielayer, re 96,

On what basis do you conclude with such confidence that "the English translation 'kill' in KJV is more accurate"? That certainly isn't Eliezer Segal's unequivocal conclusion in the article to which you linked.

Rather, Segal first points out numerous reasons why "murder" is a more accurate translation of than "kill", and gives examples of authorities who support this position.

But then, Segal points out that, while common sense, numerous commentators, and our own ears all point to the superiority of the translation "murder" for "ratsah", in fact some traditional Jewish commentators -- Segal mentions Abravanel and Maimonides -- gave reasons why, in this context and contrary to a simple understanding, the word could actually mean "kill" in a broader sense.

So, thank you for pointing out this interesting article. Prof. Segal is a pleasure to read, and I was not aware of the rather surprising and creative interpretation that the Rambam gives to this commandment.

I didn't realize that you are a scholar of Hebrew, and I look forward to many more discussions about the nuances of the language. We should get together with thewitness, who is studying the Talmud in ancient Aramaic, but whose Semitic language skills are so poor, he thinks he see entire sentences that just aren't there.

But, lielayer, how did you decide to favor the Rambam's interpretation over that of the Rashbam and Bekhor Shor? Surely you cannot ignore the Bible's permission to kill in war, self-defense, and capital punishment.

Also, note that even in the Authorized (King James) Version, when Jesus paraphrases some of the Ten Commandments in Matthew 19:18, the term used is "murder".

britfree,

1) What is your problem with the name "Beit Shemesh"? Is it made up? Of course; all names are made up. This one happens to have been in use for about the last 3800 years and maybe longer. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with the Canaanites. And keep in mind that
99

SMG,

Beit Shemesh, Israel 22/01/2008 13:53:53
continued...

And keep in mind that names like "Camelon", "Scotland" and "the United Kingdom" are somewhat more recent in origin.

But really, even if the name for a place were coined yesterday, who cares? This is just another symptom of your monomania regarding all things Israeli.

And britfree, on what basis do you assume that I have stolen anything? All you know about me is my nationality and religion, and, quite obviously, it is on this basis that you judge people, and this is your "rationale" for the irrational hatred known as antisemitism. Yours is a classic, textbook case of prejudice and bigotry. Your problems are way beyond what anyone here can help you with. I urge you to seek professional help.
100

vharbour,

canada 22/01/2008 19:48:36
Isreal will never give in to the palistinian problem because she is the problem and will continue to be so until she starts the third would war in the middle east, and then we will be asked to help again

101

Lynne,

USA 23/01/2008 03:30:04
vharbor...for you the problem is Israel exists. Too bad.Israel isn't going away..You will just have to cope.
102

Lynne,

USA 23/01/2008 03:50:25
What war Cyril..you've already proven to be a liar about that and a troll.
103

Let's have the truth,

Queensland 24/01/2008 01:10:26
# 85

"We HAVE learned a very valuable lesson from history.. It is NEVER AGAIN".

.....The very words Palestinians will use and are using.

104

vharbour,

canada 24/01/2008 02:23:49
#101 no Lynne you are wrong, my problem is not that Israel exist, it,s with the leaders that wont deal with the truth and they could solve the problems there if the delt with honesty.
105

Lynne,

USA 24/01/2008 03:06:45
#104

What is honest about launching rockets at people 24 hours a day? What is not honest about a people trying to defend themselves from this constant barage?
We all know Hamas does not care where these bombs land, be it a hospital, school, day care, nursery or old age home, or the home of a citizen.
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2000/In+Memory+of+the+Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+a.htm.. try that..see if it is just the Palestinians being killed and how these people were murdered. Maybe you will have a different outlook and see both sides.

Whether or not Israel exists what leaders do you speak of? Hamas's leaders? Israel's leaders?
How much can one tiny country give away for peace? When peace never comes. How many collective cheeks should be turned? Do you have a number? When will Israel be accepted? Do you have a date in mind? How else should Israel defend itself?
Do you think that the only people who die are Palestinians?
106

Lynne,

USA 24/01/2008 03:09:05
I am not sure what happened above...but somehow this came out out of sequence...It took 3 trys to get it on the post!!
107

Bob Brundige,

Springfield, KY USA 17/02/2008 09:23:38
Israel is a civilized post, surrounded by the real infidels. Does Israel call for annihilation of other countries? Israel is preserving herself. It is the promised land. Jews have had it with all the hatred and strife, over the years. Let the Palestinians seek refuge with their sympathizers (so-called sympathizers).

 

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