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Gunning for the right to bear arms

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Published Date: 07 April 2008
ON THE steps of the Supreme Court in Washington DC last month, demonstrators gathered with banners declaring: "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away" and "Forget 911 Dial .357" – a reference to both the United States' emergency telephone number and a popular Magnum handgun. Americans, as we have learned over the years, love their guns.
According to the FBI, there are more than 200 million privately owned guns in the US, population 300 million. When the number of illegal guns in circulation is added to those of the military, law- enforcement agencies and museums, it has been estimat
ed there are 12 guns for every man, woman and child.

Charlton Heston, who died at the weekend, was among the most vocal advocates for Americans' right to bear arms. As president of the National Rifle Association, the veteran actor would hold an antique flintlock rifle above his head and declare that the government could get it if they could pry it "from my cold, dead hands".

Now, in what is expected to be a landmark ruling, the Supreme Court is examining – for only the second time in its history – the constitutional right to bear arms which has turned America over the past two hundred years into, perhaps, the most gun-obsessed country on Earth.

When Michael Moore explored the nation's gun culture in the documentary Bowling For Columbine, he exposed a society where you can get a free handgun when you open a bank account.

The film was a response to the massacre at Columbine High School in 1999, when two students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, killed 12 young people and a teacher before committing suicide.

America is a nation that pays a heavy price for permitting its citizens to be armed. On average 11,000 people are shot dead each year. In Britain, despite fears of rising gun crime, 50 people were shot dead in England and Wales in 2006. In 1996, as a result of the Dunblane massacre, handguns were banned entirely with more than 160,000 handed in to the police for destruction. However, an entirely different mindset operates in America, where, in light of the Virginia Tech massacre in which 32 students and teachers were shot dead by Ch Seung Hui, a number of commentators argued that the problem was not that there are too many guns in American society, but too few. What, they argued, might have happened if the students and teachers were armed that fateful day?

The difference between Britain and America's attitude to guns is that, while we view them, broadly, as the necessary tools of the state, possessed by the military for the defence of the nation or by special units within the police, Americans, particularly those in the southern and western states, view guns as a source of recreation and a necessity for defence. There are historical and mythological reasons for this passion. While the American West was tamed by ranchers and farmers, miners and homesteaders who may never have fired a gun in their lives, the popular image is that the West was won by the cowboy toting his revolver.

The answer to the question of why American citizens are permitted to own guns in the first place lies in the Second Amendment to the Bill of Rights introduced in 1789, which reads: "A well- regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." So does this mean that all Americans may own guns, or only those who serve in a militia?

Garry Willis, a celebrated author and professor of history at Northwestern University, who has written of the origin of the term "bear arms", believes it was envisioned to refer to a militia or army.

"Bearing arms is such a synonym for waging war that Shakespeare can call a just war 'justborne arms' and a civil war 'self-borne arms'," Willis writes, adding "one does not bear arms against a rabbit".

However, over the past 220 years, each of the 50 states in America has individually interpreted the Second Amendment with restrictions that differ widely.

The strictest gun control in America is to be found in the District of Columbia, where there is a near-total ban on the ownership of handguns. If an individual in Washington wishes to protect his home he can legally purchase a rifle or shotgun, but it must be kept disassembled and unloaded, or trigger-locked.

Dick Heller, a federal security guard who carries a handgun while protecting his fellow citizens and wants one at home to protect himself, disagrees with the law and, with the support of Robert Levy, a multimillionaire, has taken his case to the Supreme Court.

"I want to be able to defend myself and my wife from violent criminals, and the constitution says I have a right to do that by keeping a gun in my home," Mr Heller says.

The stakes could not be any higher. The lawyers for the District of Columbia have argued that the Supreme Court should rule that Americans have a right to bear arms only in service of a government militia. The consequence of this would be to turn the law on its head and threaten the legal right of every citizen to own a gun. "It is a potentially huge, landmark decision, maybe the only decision in our lifetime in which the supreme court will tell us what the original meaning of the constitution is," said Randy Barnett, a Georgetown University law professor.

A ruling is expected in June and will likely support the idea that guns may be owned for personal protection. During the hearing last month, Chief Justice John Roberts asked the District of Columbia's lawyer how long it takes to switch off a trigger-lock on a gun (which requires entering a three-digit code) when a criminal is climbing through the window. The lawyers replied that it would take about three seconds.

Presumably, retorted Mr Roberts, you must first turn on the lamp and pick up your reading glasses?





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 06 April 2008 11:13 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Fran,

GA ,USA 07/04/2008 01:50:40
I am at present reading a book called "Black Rednecks and White Liberals ".It is by Thomas Sowell .This book states that the reason we American Southernors are so violent is because we are descendents of people who came from the Northern border of England and the Southern Border of Scotland .It is all our ancestors fault .That makes as much sense as this Michael Moore quoting reporter does .
2

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 02:03:29
From the article:

>"When Michael Moore explored the nation's gun culture..."

Micheal Moore didn't explore the gun culture, he explored pandering to and creating a core audience and telling them what they wanted to hear for the profit of Michael Moore.

In this 'exploration of the gun culture' movie, he hit upon the formula that he would continue to exploit.
3

TheFife,

Beverly Hills 07/04/2008 02:09:34
Thank you, Mr. Stephen McGinty, for your "unbiased" reporting.

You obviously have absolutely no concept of the Second Ammendment to the Constitution (not to the Bill of Rights!). You also have not your statistics correct.

Without bothering to look up the details just now -- as an investigative reporter you can do that for yourself -- you will find that the numbers you quote include suicides and not acts of aggeression. Most acts of agression are performed with black market guns by criminals. These numbers also do not reflect the multiple hundreds of times that deadly confrontations were foiled by merely showing a weapon of defence -- no shot fired.

At least you came to a turn of reasonable reporting at the very end of the article, but all reporters know that 90% of readers never get that far.

Thanks again for your "unbiased" reporting.
4

Scullion,

Canada 07/04/2008 02:59:27
Canada has, per capita, a higher rate of gun ownership than does the U.S. However, our society functions and thinks completely differently and this is reflected in the far greater rates of violent crime south of the border. The U.S. gives itself the right to bear arms (maybe) but it certainly hasn't earned that right.
The constant debate around the U.S. constitution, which is interpreted according to the demeanour of their Supreme Court at any given time, shows the problem with having a binding blueprint run a democracy, as it cannot be expected to take into account contingencies for all time to come.
5

Humanitarian,

07/04/2008 03:08:00
The writer is very ignorant of American history and law.
The amendments of the constitution, ALL of them, I repeat All of them refer to indiviual rights belonging to the citizen, and not collective rights.
If you can take one right away you can take them all away.
The first thing tyrants do (ask your Scottish Communists) is take the firearms off the people and thay will be more easily cowed
6

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 03:22:32
#4 - Scullion

>"The U.S. gives itself the right to bear arms (maybe) but it certainly hasn't earned that right."

It earned that right when it used those guns to make sure that, unlike you, we would not a a British Dominion - and, like you, would not be bored with Canadian History and study the more exciting American one.
7

Yankee girl,

California 07/04/2008 03:22:40
It's always interesting to get the Brit perspective on this issue. But, good lord, did Michael Moore really expose "a society where you can get a free handgun when you open a bank account?" I haven't seen Bowling for Columbine, but I can't imaging that this is true in any US state - I could be wrong, of course. In California, you can only purchase a handgun from a licensed dealer, wait 10 days, be over 21, etc.

8

T M,

LA, USA 07/04/2008 03:25:04
British friend here in California believes it is the Possibility of the presence of firearms that explains why he doesn't see all the random barfights, glassings, stabbings, general alcohol fueled thuggery etc. that he used to see back home in the UK...
9

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 03:32:09
#4 - Scullion (cont)

I've checked for sources for your Canadian 'per capita' numbers and I can't find anything verifying what you say.

I have found that the US has the most guns per person (per capita?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_countries_by_gun_ownership

followed by Yemen and Finland

Do you have a source for this?
10

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 03:35:55
#7 - Yankee Girl

>"But, good lord, did Michael Moore really expose "a society where you can get a free handgun when you open a bank account?"

Yankee Girl, an examination of the claim shows something a bit different than you would get from reading the statement, but the bet is that people won't go past the sensationalized statement to find out that what it says isn't what the situation really is.
11

nat_h,

Arkansas, USA 07/04/2008 03:52:11
The bias in this report is truly sickening! The "author" evidently chose to ignore the many-times proven fact that communities that allow responsible citizens to carry a concealed weapon have markedly lower numbers of violent crimes. The logic of this is obvious.

And to suggest that Michael Moore is a responsible reporter of Americana is patent absurdity.
12

nat_h,

Arkansas, USA 07/04/2008 03:52:53
The bias in this report is truly sickening! The "author" evidently chose to ignore the many-times proven fact that communities that allow responsible citizens to carry a concealed weapon have markedly lower numbers of violent crimes. The logic of this is obvious.

And to suggest that Michael Moore is a responsible reporter of Americana is patent absurdity.
13

James1480,

Mississippi, US of A 07/04/2008 03:58:29
It's like the little lady said in the Tuscaloosa paper
a while back: "I'd rather have a pistol in my hand than a cop on the phone."

I'm with her.
14

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 04:36:45
It's actually about freedoms, and unless you are an American you can't understand our feelings about it.

I have the freedom to own guns. It doesn't matter that other people with guns abuse this freedom, it doesn't take away mine.

Non-Americans simply don't see it this way. Giving up a freedom is not such a big thing to them, few of them (if any) ever had complete freedoms in the first place.

Couple this with the freedom the media has to send out an unending, mindless stream of violence-glorifying gun-idolizing trash, a freedom they are 'abusing' - but to stop their 'freedom of speech' would be repugnant to Americans.

Non-Americans say that it is our own fault, our failure to curb our media's abuse of their 'freedom of speech rights' to glorify gun violence serves along with our failure to curb the abuses of some gun owners serves us right!

We should give up our rights, they chant. This seems simple to them.

They have no clue.

15

sesquiculus,

07/04/2008 04:48:10
Up until about 1920, it was easier to carry a handgun legally in the UK than in Texas. Yet the murder rate rate was about the same then as now. This goes back to the 1640's, when a writer remarked that London had only a handful of murders a year, compared to Paris, where there was one a night.

Ya see, Brits, being much more civilized than us Yanks, never shot each other much. Point being, that firearms violence rates are set by social factors and not by accessibility to guns.
16

sesquiculus,

07/04/2008 04:54:53
Moore grossly edited his film to misrepresent the legal situation. Also, it was a rifle, not a handgun. Likewise, the article overstates the number of firearms in the US. It is thought to be about 250 million.

17

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 05:43:01
#16 - Sesquiculus

Moore has learned that misrepresentations are fine if they re-enforce a stereotype that his audience will pay to see. Like any bad investigator he publishes information that helps his 'thesis' (a snotty word that tries to pass off 'opinion' as something scientific), but won't publish information that doesn't.

For instance - he was once the Editor of 'Mother Jones' magazine, if you are familiar with the magazine it is certainly NOT a 'mainstream, American corporate' publication.

Being a magazine that prides itself on facts, he was fired for refusing to print an article by a Mr. Paul Berman which was critical of the Sandinista's human rights record in Nicaragua.

He knew the importance of telling his audience what they wanted to hear, not facts that they didn't. He also knew to pander to a Leftist, anti-American audience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Jones_(magazine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Moore
18

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 05:49:31
Dudes:

As a general statement(in my opinion) . I say that Americans are a society of homosapien mongrels. Compared with the homogeneous societies of India , China , Japan , Germany , France, Britain, Ireland Sweden etc.

And in being homosapien mogrels, we have spawned through inter racial, and inter cultural copulation, and marriage, general gene conditions, which differ from those societies who are 99% more homogeneous than we Americans.

In the material sense, we are very successful very powerful etc,. In the moral sense we are very successful very powerful as hypocrites. In the spiritual sense, we are very bizarre and have turned religion into a profit making business.

Fortunately we created a document which guarantees all Americans, freedom, liberty and justice. Its known as:

The Constitution of the United States of America

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Our US Constitution has seven (7) Articles and twenty seven (27) Amendments.
Amendment II (Second Amendment)states:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".

The Second Amendment, has stood the test of time for the past two hundred seventeen (217) years..

And hopefully it will be alive for the next 217 years and onwards.

Non-Americans do not understand, neither the meaning or value, of the US Constitution.
And the majority of non-Americans don't want too, and don't care.

That's fine with this American , Galactic Cannibal.
U dudes have every right to think such about our Constitution.


Topic change :

For the next 10 days it will be sunshine every day in Murrieta and
19

NSLSmith,

Seattle, WA 07/04/2008 05:55:04
Three of ma' Great Grandpappies wer’ honest farmers in Colorado, Oklahoma, and Texas. All of them relied on their Winchester 1894 .30-30s to 1) keep'em safe, and 2) get'em food (despite these here contentions, a shot or two were fired in the West.)

As a Mechanical Engineer, night Law Student, active community member, and American Citizen, when it comes to my personal right to defend my family and fellow citizens, I just can't help but wonder: why I would surrender this right to others? Our culture values rights over temporary safety. We are a stand up and take charge people who live in an expansive country. Lest you forget that the U.K.’s population is much Moore (ahem) accessible than is the U.S.A.’s. The U.K. has 249 people per km² versus 31 per km² for the U.S.

I suppose it may be difficult to understand; one may have had to grow up in such an environment, but it is a matter of free will. We have a responsibility both to use firearms in a safe manner, and to protect our fellow citizens. It is when a citizen demonstrates that he or she can not handle freedom (through the commission of a felony) that we restrict that citizen’s right to bear arms, not before. It is our moral responsibility to act in a reasonable matter, just as it is to preserve our freedom of religion, speech, of association, etc...

Why would a country wish to be disarmed at the core? How many examples of this throughout history have proven disastrous? How does civilian disarmament equate to safety? As our not so long gone Benjamin Franklin once said, “They that can give up Essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
20

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 06:04:12
#18 contd:

temps eat 78°F (26°C)

What about weather in Bonnie Scotland dudes.

GC
21

,

07/04/2008 06:24:52
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22

,

07/04/2008 06:37:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
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23

,

07/04/2008 06:46:42
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24

DonnyWonny,

USA 07/04/2008 06:53:40
As in the enumeration of other rights in our Bill of Rights (the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution, including the right to peaceable assembly, free speech, petition of their government for the redress of grievances, freedom from unreasonable searches or seizures - all violations of free men's and women's rights by George III of England) the "right of the people" to bear arms is guaranteed. Not just the militia, but "the people". The phrase THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE in our constitutional phraseology overrides the phrase "a well-regulated militia" in the second amendment, related to bearing arms. It is a fundamental right; get over it.
Our experience in two wars of liberation from Britain oppression and arrogance led to and later affirmed, the enumeration of these "rights" or guarantees.
I am happy to be one of the millions of Americans who keep (several) arms handy (and loaded) for self-protection and as a talisman against any government that may seek to abrogate the Constitution.
No Jews (or any other fellow citizens) will be led away to death camps, as in culturally superior, but feckless, Europe while I am alive; my Jewish friends may count on it.
Your population growth is mostly from folks who want free handouts. Ours is mostly from natives and people from all over the world seeking the freedoms and opportunity that our system offers through our respect for the guarantees of the Constitution, including the second amendment. This includes a number of Britons who I see at my gym who say they "could never go back again". Too bad for you.

25

Kenny A,

07/04/2008 07:20:08
Do not wish to cause offense but the only people who should carry guns are the military and certain policemen, and to be honest I have my doubts about arming the police. If you let just about anyone carry a gun you can rest assured they will be used. Scotland has a serious knife culture but since banning the carrying of knifes, knife crime has dropped. America I am afraid has a serious problem with its gun culture.
26

T M,

LA, USA 07/04/2008 07:31:54
# 20
Why are you lying to the people about the weather in Murrieta? BTW it is the armpit of Southern California. Sure you don't really live in Dundee??
27

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 07:33:52
Hello All,

To my fellow Americans whom have so gallantly enumerated, rationally, logically, contextually, and honestly, what is contained in the US Constitution, I offer my thanks and my congratulations.

I would also suggest that the reason so many Brits do not understand either us, our country, or our Constitution, is that modern Brits have voluntarily given away their right to personal protection: both in their homes and of their persons in public.

They have voluntarily become slaves of the British Government and worse, of the undemocratic EU.

DonnyWonny explained it to the proverbial 'nth degree', noting the fine points of the argument, in that singular phrase found no where else on Earth: '...the right of the people...' shall NOT be 'infringed'.

EVERY Supreme Court ruling heretofore, has clearly and unanimously declared that this phrase DOES INDEED mean INDIVIDUAL Americans, and NOT Americans as a whole, or the state/us military(ies) in particular.

Should the Supreme Court rule counter to the Plaintiff's Suit, then EVERY Amendment where this phrase is mentioned, then becomes moot- NULL and VOID.

In short, we would become like Britons: devoid of any written and guaranteed security from either government or criminal abuses/violence.

No free speech, no right of assembly, no freedom of the press, NOTHING but what the government tells us we have-at whatever given time and from their 'good will' toward us.

Again I must ask the Britons so baldly complaining of Americans and our gun rights: if you're so terribly concerned about the loss of human life, in this case from guns, when may we expect you to sign a petition for the banning of all liquor-wines, beers, whiskeys, liqueurs, etc.?

Booze kills at least TWICE the number of people in the US that guns do every year. Booze kills MANY MORE people in the UK than did legal guns, or illegal guns now, after the idiotic banning (check to see how many gun deaths there are now compared to pre-ban. C
28

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 07:34:43
Hello All CONT,

Booze kills at least TWICE the number of people in the US that guns do every year. Booze kills MANY MORE people in the UK than did legal guns, or illegal guns now, after the idiotic banning (check to see how many gun deaths there are now compared to pre-ban. Check then to see how often home burglaries, WITH violence, occur in the UK.).

I ask again: When may I and every other American, and every Gun Owning Brit, expect you and your fellow anti-gunners, to launch the ban on booze in the UK/EU?

Should you not so do, you shall prove yourselves to be nothing more than hypocrites: because your refusal will have shorn away your masks of supporters of a Police State, whether in the UK/EU, or America.

You have zero interest in saving lives: your interests are in making sure that a Police State Exists, where those who think like you are in control, and hence, YOU believe you will be in control.

You're in 'excellent' company: Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, all believed in 'gun free' societies: personally owned guns that is to say; they made sure that the only people who had guns, were minions of the State.

How very 'secure'.

Cheers from the Rockies
29

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 07:49:49
Hello All Again,

I'd like to add a little fuel to the fire:

Since 1934, all automatic weapons in private hands in the USA, have been formally licensed with the Federal Government.

1934 to Present, we now have appx. 500,000 (that's half a million to you anti-gunners; I know that you lot are not comfortable with either empirical evidence or verifiable facts) sub-machine guns, machine guns (light, medium, and heavy), grenade launchers, full auto cannons (20mm and 40mm), howitzers, and chain guns (.308 caliber that shoot about 6000 rounds per minute), flame throwers, etc., in PRIVATE AMERICAN HANDS and households.

The 'nifty' part of all these weapons, is that NOT ONE has ever been used in the commission of a crime.

Not one.

Remind me again of your mantra: guns kill people and cause violence?

Yeah, right.

Cheers from the Rockies
30

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 07/04/2008 08:13:40
26
T M,
LA, USA
------------------------------
u wrote:
Why are you lying to the people about the weather in Murrieta;

Dude ,
I am not lying.
U sound like a sad person and cynical .

Why don't U open the link below and see the 10 day temps for Murrieta.
If U have a problem just input my Zip code CA 92564

this is weather forecsting which is updated live.

Try not to be so cynical Dude.

GC

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/92564?from=36hr_topnav_undeclared
31

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 08:21:48
29
Neanderthal75,
Rocky Mountains USA
-------------------

Hey Dude didn't anyone tell U that

People KILL people

People with Guns kill people

People with Knives kill people

People with Cars kill people

But neither GUNS, KNIVES, CARS, DO not kill people

Its the People who kill people dude.

Why people cannot get that into their 4x6 stud heads ,beats the hell out of me .

At least U cannot kill people with shrooms .
But U will sent them on trips, and they will laugh until they pi*ss in their underwear, (assuming they wear it ,as often, the girls don't wear underwear)..

But that's all dude.

GC

Happy Haggis day

GC
32

jdships,

07/04/2008 08:22:21
19 NSLSmith,Seattle

when it comes to my personal right to defend my family and fellow citizens, I just can't help but wonder: why I would surrender this right to others? Our culture values rights over temporary safety. We are a stand up and take charge people who live in an expansive country.

I accept that I am not qualified to crticise or even probably to comment on this subject as I have only worked in USA and not actually lived there.
I do, however, feel able to comment on your post.
Has this situation not been brought about by your government's failure to govern the country correctly.
As to " We are a stand up and take charge people "
Wow !! The sheer arrogance beggars belief .
Unfortunately your country has proved , throughout the world , the statement is pretty well correct - sad fact

I meet a number of American families through my work and thankfully the great majority do not share your views
.
33

joppa jock,

Huntingdon 07/04/2008 08:56:11
I think I've strayed by error onto the website of the HILLBILLY WEEKLY!
34

Number 6,

Germany 07/04/2008 09:25:53
fascinating to read all these comments about the precious Constitution etc, yet you do nothing while
the Bush administration systematically abuses it.

Is it possible to receive a free handgun in some states when opening a bank account or not ?. If not,
then someone should sue this journalist. But if it is true, then you really need to take a long hard look at yourselves. It's strange that the overwhelming majority of the civilised world have no need to arm their civillians. New York did not cut crime by handing
out firearms, they did it by taking a zero tolerance attitude towards crime. Other states should try it sometime.
35

,

07/04/2008 09:33:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
36

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 10:00:19
Hello Gordon,

"..coca-cola fantasy empire with fire and sword..throughout the rest of the world."

Don't you mean the 'Gin and Tonic' fantasy empire with fire and sword...throughout the rest of the world, you know, like the Black Hole of Calcutta?

Isn't YOUR country the one which spawned the joke:

"Why does the sun never set on the British Empire?"

Answer: Because God doesn't trust a Brit in the dark.

You sir are just another voluntary slave to the Brit Govt. and the EU Govt.: you and your ilk do NOT like written Constitutions, because your beloved bureaucrats can't as easily twiddle with such a document: it takes MUCH MORE effort to try and steal away individual rights under our system than it does yours.

Remain happy in your willfully chosen serfdom: you deserve it.

Cheers from the Rockies
37

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 10:17:03
Hallo Die Nummer Sechs,

Ich müß einfach sagen, daß man gar keine Handfeuerwaffe von einer Bank bekommen kann.

Manchmal kann man ein Langgewehr oder ein Schrottgewehr von einer Bank bekommen, aber NUR hat man viele Federalformen ausfüllen, und viele Tagen warten.

The bottom line is that Michael Moore lied through his teeth throughout the entire film (as he has in all his other films, as has been oft proven).

Before any weapon is given, the prospective recipient MUST pass a formal Federal Background Check BEFORE he ever is given the weapon.

Further, the shotgun/rifle in question is designed for HUNTING (birds, large game).

Lastly, Bush as NOT abused the Constitution, as numerous Courts have ascertained. American presidents have much power Constitutionally, but there happen to be TWO OTHER branches to the American System: the Congress and the Courts.

When will you Europeans ever learn that? Never I suspect, as the level of anti-Americanism gets ever higher: which is why I support ABANDONING NATO, and Europe entoto.

You splendid folks can deal with Putin on your own: he's already threatened to fire nuclear missiles at Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Ukraine.

Since Poland and the Czech Republic are EU Member States, the burgeoning SILENCE from you Europeans about the threat of genocide against the Poles and Czechs by Putin, prove the utter hypocrisy of Europeans.

You'll demonstrate all day long against America for any and all reasons, regardless of the facts, but say nary a word against Tovarisch Putin, even though he literally threatens to destroy two EU Member States and their entire Populations.

How very even handed of you.

Tschüß from the Rockies
38

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 10:17:18
Hallo Die Nummer Sechs,

Ich müß einfach sagen, daß man gar keine Handfeuerwaffe von einer Bank bekommen kann.

Manchmal kann man ein Langgewehr oder ein Schrottgewehr von einer Bank bekommen, aber NUR hat man viele Federalformen ausfüllen, und viele Tagen warten.

The bottom line is that Michael Moore lied through his teeth throughout the entire film (as he has in all his other films, as has been oft proven).

Before any weapon is given, the prospective recipient MUST pass a formal Federal Background Check BEFORE he ever is given the weapon.

Further, the shotgun/rifle in question is designed for HUNTING (birds, large game).

Lastly, Bush as NOT abused the Constitution, as numerous Courts have ascertained. American presidents have much power Constitutionally, but there happen to be TWO OTHER branches to the American System: the Congress and the Courts.

When will you Europeans ever learn that? Never I suspect, as the level of anti-Americanism gets ever higher: which is why I support ABANDONING NATO, and Europe entoto.

You splendid folks can deal with Putin on your own: he's already threatened to fire nuclear missiles at Poland, the Czech Republic, and the Ukraine.

Since Poland and the Czech Republic are EU Member States, the burgeoning SILENCE from you Europeans about the threat of genocide against the Poles and Czechs by Putin, prove the utter hypocrisy of Europeans.

You'll demonstrate all day long against America for any and all reasons, regardless of the facts, but say nary a word against Tovarisch Putin, even though he literally threatens to destroy two EU Member States and their entire Populations.

How very even handed of you.

Tschüß from the Rockies
39

,

07/04/2008 10:57:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
40

Gordon, Canonmills,

07/04/2008 11:33:16
Yo Caveman!

I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong aspen if you're looking for an apologist for the Brutish Empire.

My country, i.e. SCOTLAND, did participate, and not always unwillingly, but, ... that's another story.

As to the serfdom, we're working on it.

We took a giant step in the right direction last May in the elections to the Scottish parliament.

As to leaving NATO, please do. Otherwise we will!

I hope that a future (a very near future!) independent Scotland will participate in a European force and will contribute to UN peace missions, as opposed to the present state of being a pimple on the rump of Empire, dragged by Westminster into YOUR imperial adventures.

I know not all my compatriots share this view, but I'm confident that we'll work it out democratically amongst ourselves.

And to get back on-thread, independent Scotland (it's comin' yet for a' that!) will have a written constitution in which our basic rights will be guaranteed, but I can assure you that the right to carry firearms and go around massacring each other will be one very few of us will be interested in.
41

Bien E. Bien,

07/04/2008 11:44:11
Bare arms should only be allowed when combined with bare legs and buttocks.
42

Number 6,

Germany 07/04/2008 12:01:13
Neanderthal, so is that ok then , no handgun but a rifle ? can be gained through the local bank, after filling out some forms and waiting a few days.Wow tough security.

Very sad to see you have no idea what the Bush administration has done to your country , and the freedoms you used to have. You are of the see no evil hear no evil etc variety so debate is wasted on you.

You call Moore a charleton yet admit it is possible to
aquire firearms through the bank, amazing. Is this the old Deny and Denounce tactic so loved by you right wingers. PS in Moores new film , I believe he shows a
poor man being told by his doctor, after an accident, to choose what fingers he would like sown back on , as he could not afford to have them all re-attached. Can that be true ?, is your country really like that ?.

Is this why there is so much hatred against Moore in the US, because he confronts you with the awful reality of your country ?. How long do you think the tent cities will stay in the US, will your goverment do anything to help those who have lost their homes?.

As for your paranoid driveling over Putin ? I can hear every reader on this forum laughing from here.
43

Number 6,

Germany 07/04/2008 13:38:03
Go to Michael moore's web site www.michaelmoore.com
there he provides plenty of links to prove he is NO LIAR.Deny and denounce, deny and denounce.
44

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 14:43:19
#43 -

Go to Wikipedia and you'll see that he got fired from 'Mother Jones' because he refuses to print both sides of stories:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Jones_(magazine)

Why would his website be any different?
45

Carolyn 1,

07/04/2008 14:55:30

It is very easy to photograph, write and edit news and send it around the world quickly.
It is very easy to stage news, photo it and send it around the world very quickly and easily.
Anyone can do it.
Misinformation mass distributed is the most important and effective tool of propaganda in the 21st century.

It is dangerous for society to not have the ability to discern what is true and what is not true. How can we be this stupid not to ask ourselves every time we read an article as to whether or not it is true?

#42 Number 6
http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110003233
the bank teller explains Moore STAGED the bank gift of a free gun

Michael Moore 'stages' his films.
46

Reckless,

Uphold the Constitution 07/04/2008 14:56:54
The US doesn't want to become like us. We were neutered decades ago. The final snip came when Tony B'liar came to power in 1997.

Defend your 2nd ammendment rights. Don't allow your criminal rogue government (Rep and Dem) to turn you into limp wristed slaves.

We used to have a Bill of Rights. In fact the US Constitution is a direct descendant of our 1215 Magna Carta and 1689 Bill of Rights. It's time we abolished most of our dictatorial laws and returned to Nu Labour is the enemy of liberty.

God Bless America (the original 18th century version, not the CIA police state terrorist one they have today)!
47

Reckless,

Corrupt EU 07/04/2008 14:58:35
...returned to these simple documents. Nu Labour...
48

mike - across the pond,

ah you liberals.... 07/04/2008 15:15:04
"When Michael Moore explored the nation's gun culture in the documentary Bowling For Columbine, he exposed a society where you can get a free handgun when you open a bank account."

has ANYONE.... opened a bank account and recieved a "FREE HANDGUN"?

has ANYONE.... EVER even heard of such a thing?

this is an utter piece of FICTION... and even if there is some tiny mustard seed of truth there... is there ANY link between ANY of these "FREE HANDGUNS" and crimes committed?

FIRST off... Moore is an unkempt piece of TRASH... consider this... Moore from the "comfort" of his american upbringing is able to freely distort and criticize every phase of americana... were he to try that in 80% of the rest of the countries on the planet... he'd be filming his next EPIC from behind bars.... if not from some unmarked grave along a dusty road....

Moore is a typical self-loathing liberal... (of course one GLANCE at him proves the old addage "what is there not to loathe")

as far as the UK participating in peacekeeping missions... PLEASE DO.. Africa is a BIG place... lots of peacekeeping work to be done there....
49

Dáithí,

San Jose 07/04/2008 15:29:55
#45 - Carolyn

>"Michael Moore 'stages' his films."

True - but you can't blame the clown for pandering to his circus audience.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110003233

Perhaps the real question is 'Why is his audience so desperate to believe him?"
50

George.,

07/04/2008 16:05:07
Because their average IQ is that of Koko.
51

George.,

07/04/2008 16:12:00
You should watch Idiocracy to see where we are heading.
52

Findlay Thompson,

07/04/2008 16:40:08
Posters.

The American people have the right to bear arms to protect themselves & their families. However, they have absolutely no right to bear arms toward other countries, specifically for imperialist gain.

53

NSLSmith,

Seattle, WA 07/04/2008 16:49:08
#32 jdships -
You talk of arrogance while claiming to have a finger on the pulse of the American public? I've lived in seven U.S. states and one U.S. territory, we have a population of over 301 Million - our country is far more diverse than most can imagine. Please don't pass judgment on countries you have only visited; I don't (that would be arrogant).
54

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta 07/04/2008 17:01:33
50
George.

---------------------------------

Dude are U referring to Koko the Gorilla, or to G W Bush our Pres.

GC
55

Kenny A,

07/04/2008 17:13:59
Have been reading this trail on and of for most of today and while I can understand the attraction and possibly the freedom that the Americans have gone on about the right to defend themselves and the constitution. Dont particularly disagree with either, I do wonder why they feel the need to bear arms and use them fairly extensivly. Are the police and security forces failing in their duty to their fellow citizens to protect them. Is the place just got this culture where you need to bear arms to prove you exist. Bloody hell school childern are regularly in the news for murdering each other. Shoot first ask questions later culture does not wash with me, not anti guns but only in the right hands and that is very few people. Was a soldier most of my days and now live in Africa so I know what I am trying to say.

To all you Americans out there the UK took action when sycos like the sod who shot the kids in Dumblane, were delt with, ban firearms. America is hiding behind the constitution . I do not mean to cause offense but I lost several friends in the first Gulf War due to trigger happy yanks who obviously felt very sorry afterwards but that does not role the clock back.

You are the land of the free as has been pointed out, get the weopons of the street and people may feel a bit freer.
56

Kenny A,

07/04/2008 17:20:51
Just found this, not very good reflection people.


HESTON DEMANDS RIGHT TO SHOOT ANGELS


Is heaven run by nancy boys?
DEAD acting legend Charlton Heston has launched a campaign for the right to shoot angels with a variety of high powered assault weapons.

The 84 year-old, who played Moses, Ben Hur and himself in an episode of Friends, said his heavenly gun rack would be used used primarily to shoot the souls of dead animals, including dead deer, dead rabbits and dead pigeons.

But he insisted he and other dead people had a right to protect themselves with a machine gun if an angel broke into their cloud.

Heaven is a relatively crime-free area with gun ownership restricted to licensed hunters and a handful of the bigger saints.


Heston said last night: "I thought heaven was supposed to be a free country. Instead I find it in the grip of hippy communists, pansies and sissy-boy abortion doctors.

"What are these people afraid of? If you've done nothing wrong then the chances of me shooting you are reduced significantly."

He added: "As someone who played Moses in a film, I think I'm more qualified than most to speak on behalf of God.

"The Almighty loves nothing more than spending a weekend in the woods, talking about the Constitution and polishing his favourite Uzi 9mm."

Heston arrived in heaven shortly after a gun had been prised from his cold, dead hands, as predicted.


57

Biker,

AYR 07/04/2008 17:44:16
Gallactic Caniball. I take your point about the 2nd ammendment, but why not quote it fully?
Maintain a well armed millitia indeed but the reason was to deal with government.
Also worth mentioning is that at the time it was drafted, the best you could hope for was a flintlock, not a semi-automatic.
People kill people
People with guns kill more people more efficiently.
58

Terry,

Midwest US 07/04/2008 18:12:02
The second amendment to the constitution does not grant the right to self defense, it acknowledges that the government may not infringe the pre-existing right.

Do you people who don't like the second amendment really and truly believe that you have no right to self-defense? That no matter what is done to you, or who takes up arms against you, you have no right to defend yourself with similar weapon? How can you let yourself be put in that position?

And yes, with the abuses of the constitution by this administration and others, it is possible in the foreseeable future that we may have to defend ourselves from our own government. It is only the millions of firearms in freemen's hands that have prevented it so far.
59

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 07/04/2008 18:31:05
Hallo noch mal die Nummer Sechs,

So, du könntest nicht meine spezifische Punkte vom Lüger Moore antworten.

Naja, total normal für die Linke: nur eine leere Aussage.

Those forms you so quickly dismissed are for the Federal Government and THAT means an run through the FBI NCIC database. Federal approval on individuals attempting to purchase guns is the law. You're a German, you ought to love the Federal control on this issue.

I must also point out that neither you nor any anti-Gunner, including the Brit with former military service, can actually answer the specifics of the FBI Gun Data, nor can you answer the fact that if YOU are so concerned about people dying from gun use, why you don't step to the Fore and DEMAND that all booze be BANNED.

TWICE the number of people each year are killed by drunk drivers, than are killed by guns in the USA (and that number includes criminals killed by police, criminals killed by law abiding gun owners defending themselves, AND those committing suicide, so get that part right at the start).

Again I ask you and the anti-Gun Brits on this forum: WHEN may we expect you to demonstrate and call for BANNING all Booze in the USA, Great Britain, and the EU?

I shall await with bated breath, you answers.

Cheers from the Rockies
60

mike - across the pond,

ah biker.... 07/04/2008 18:38:13
you said

"People with guns kill more people more efficiently."...

sadly the VAST MAJORITY of people with guns.... allow them to rust into piles of iron oxide..

the truth is MOST gun owners never intentionally point them at another human being... ever...
61

Gordon, Canonmills,

07/04/2008 18:39:46
#46 Reckless

Interesting but irrelevant comment on acts passed by the ENGLISH parliament (in the case of 1689 - in 1215 it was some kind of Norman barons' get-together).

In case it hadn't come to your attention, this is a SCOTTISH website.

Just who is the "we" you refer to?
62

Carolyn 1,

07/04/2008 18:51:26
There is a saying: when you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns.
Statistics show that thugs buy their guns from other thugs.

It has been 50 years since the aspirations of Martin Luther King, Civil Rights and Affirmative Action to bring equal opportunity to the American black community. The US made it easier for blacks to enter college and pay for it. They passed legislation to enforce affirmative action for jobs. But decades later blacks still live in inner city poverty and violence.
Legislation and equal opportunity have not been effective to reduce poverty and violence.

The media and entertainment industry glorifies Gangs, drugs and violence, Rappers are famous now toting their guns, they sing violence and drugs, sell platinum, with fame they win music awards, Grammies and Hollywood accolades.

But, Did glorifying rap set back the American black male?

Blacks are about 13% of the US population.
On any given day in America:
more black males are in prison than in college
34% blacks are in prison
30% are working
65% in their 20's are jobless

more statistics:
12% of blacks under 20 are in prison
1 in 10 under 30 are in jail
50% are in prison for gun related violence
17% are in prison for drug crimes
50+% of blacks in the inner cities do not finish school
60% of black drop-outs end up in prison
13% of the black population cannot vote because of felony records (some states do let felons vote)

It has taken America 50 years to be color blind, but we can't seem to find the answer to stop violence in the inner city- which is where the majority of violence occurs
63

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 18:59:15
57
Biker,
AYR 07/04/2008 17:44:16
Gallactic Caniball. I take your point about the 2nd ammendment, but why not quote it fully?
--------------------------------------

Response; I believe I did quote the Second Amendment fully.

Sure times have changed, but the meaning of the Second Amendment has not changed.

Our US Constitution has seven (7) Articles and twenty seven (27) Amendments.
Amendment II (Second Amendment)states:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".
---------------------------------------------
Bye the way people who own hand guns or rifles have a one in 15 chance of hitting their target . such as a moving intruder inside their home.

If U need to protect Ur self, buy a short barrel pump shot gun, with a 5 cartdige chamber .
U WILL not miss the intruder no matter what .

Even the clicking sound of this gun will scare off the intruder.

GC
64

jdships,

07/04/2008 19:19:28
53 NSLSmith,Seattle, WA

Read my post correctly , please. I was passing a "comment" not a "judgement"
My opinion which I am entitled to express is that your statement " We are a stand up and take charge people "
is born out by USA foreign policy
65

Carolyn 1,

07/04/2008 19:22:09
I should add, because the Scotsman did not:
The case in the SCOTUS is about the Washington DC ban. Washington DC has the strictest gun laws in the country;- even so, in the 1990s it was the murder capital of the world!! Now it's second. DC has a lot of problems with its inner-city gangs.

Since guns are outlawed only the criminals have the guns, citizens want to protect themselves....and they are going to the court to demand their right to protect themselves
66

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 19:56:47
62
Carolyn 1,
0
--------------------------------

Dude, Its quite simple, and there is little need for U and anyone else to repeat the litany of problems associated with Americans who are black. Problems which they bring on themselves.

Our fellow Americans who are Black, have been in the US as long as the White Americans, give or take 20 years.

However in 2008 our fellow Black American are mirroring the tribal nature of their continent Africa.

Why is it that Africa is such a basket case ? . And why is it, the Black Americans, are not too far behind, that basket case. In their life style , their attitude , their whining etc...

No I am not a racist just stating facts dude.

This has nothing to do with the White Americans the Yellow Americans or the Brown Americans.

Its about time our fellow Black Americans dumped that racial chip they have carried for 200+ years. And move on.

Happy Haggis Day

GC
67

Goomba,

Ohio, US 07/04/2008 20:32:16
The right to bear arms is what differetiates a citizen (That's us) from a subject (That's you).
68

ThePeter,

Glasgae 07/04/2008 20:33:03
# 1 - come and live in the Scottish Borders
Our Borderers are every bit as thick and rednecked as any "southerner" could dream of ando do not start me on the in-breeding etc
The ONLY thing missing in the Borders are guns for the "good-ol-boys"
69

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 07/04/2008 22:20:14
A great many of our soldiers who came to England to fight the Nazi's knew how to use a gun. If it had not been for the Yanks, you Brits would be speaking German now. That is a true fact! And you think you have the right to dictate "gun policy" to us??

Many countries in europe required all guns be registered. When the Nazi's invaded these countries, they just went around to each gun owner and collected his guns. The French sat on their hands while the Germans systematically slaughtered millions of people, Jews, Poles, Gypsies, because they didnt have the back bone to fight. They never have and never will. But we are of the British stock. We are a "bull headed" tough nut to crack. So allow us our flaws, and we'll keep our guns. Who knows, maybe one day you'll be glad we did.
70

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 07/04/2008 22:41:31
#40 Gordon, Canonmills:

I celebrate Scottlands independance! I do beleive that your forefathers were permitted to own guns were they not? Does Scottland still allow their people to engage in hunting? We are not unlike you. Our real problem is that our courts have become feeble! In this country, if someone slaughters five or six people, the perpetrator's rights under law become paramount to the courts, and to hell with victim rights. Our department of corrections has become a swinging door to violent offenders. There is no guarnatee of justice in this land, nor is there any guarantee that the offender will pay the same price his victim paid.

We're so concerned about the social influenses which caused the offender to go on his killing spree, that we over look the fact that he made a choice...a choice to kill. Even if convicted, the offender sits in prison for 15 to 17 years before the death sentence is carried out, and in many states, the death sentence is not an option.

With all of these predatory animals running amuck, it's not wise to give up ones right to bear arms, after all, they might visit your home or mine next.

71

CombatVet68,

New Babylon 07/04/2008 22:51:14
#40 Gordon (Continued Post Script)

A law professor of min, while in college, said that the only true remedy for criminal behaviour is the guarantee of swift and fair punishment. I one kills another, then that persons life is forfeit, unless the accused acted in a manner snctioned by law. If one robbs another, the offender goes to prison...he does not get out early, he gets no free psses.

However, in this country, there is no true justice, as I said before. When the President of the United States committs a criminal offence, he gets pardoned! He might get himself impeached, but he does no jail time, he does not appear before a magistrate like you or I.

In this country, if you are an elected politician, you can blatantly lie to the public and we will re-elect you. How utterly pathetic we have become.
72

Rifleman ,

Houston Texas 07/04/2008 23:20:30
Obviously this story is very slanted toward the writers liberal socialist view of guns. But in America it is a Constutional right to bear arms and a bunch of liberal lawyers have comeup with a bogus argument against gun ownership. The reason for this in the 2nd ammendment was because the British did not want people to be able to protect themselves against a harsh British Government. I do not believe for one second you have had so few killings in Britain -- guns do not kill anyone -- people do...
73

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 23:32:37
69
CombatVet68,
New Babylon 07/04/2008 22:20:14
A great many of our soldiers who came to England to fight the Nazi's knew how to use a gun. If it had not been for the Yanks, you Brits would be speaking German now. That is a true fact! And you think you have the right to dictate "gun policy" to us??
----------------------------------

Hey Dude,

As an American I think U are not accurate in ur statement above.

First there is no evidence that the English or the French would be speaking German . had we the Americans not got involved in WWII.

WWII had been going on for almost 2.1/2 years before our country the US sent troops to Europe. The US entered WWII in December 1941, that war started in September 1939

If Japan had not attacked the US the US were not in any hurry to get into the European theatre, if at all.

In early 1939, Roosevelt asked Congress to repeal the Neutrality Act, so the U.S. could sell arms to the free European forces. Congress refused. In September, World War II began as Germany invaded Poland. Roosevelt spoke before Congress again, and on November 4, it approved the Pittman Bill, which allowed America to sell arms to nations who could pay for their weapons in cash.
-----------------------------------------
Next dude . explain to all of us, what is a "true fact" ..If it exists ,is there a "not true fact "

Dude U need to get ur logic straight before u postulate any further .

Happy Haggis day

GC
74

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta; . CA.....a place in the Sun 07/04/2008 23:39:13
72
Rifleman ,
Houston Texas
----------------------------

Dude in England, Scotland, Wales, and N.Ireland they use knives to kill people.

In the US we generally use guns to kill people.

To kill a person with a knife takes more balls. To kill a person with a gun takes less balls.

With the knife you must make body contact with the victim.

With the gun you do not have to make body contact with the victim.

Like our F18 war planes in IRAQ, our pilots have no idea who they killed . They use missiles .Its easy .

happy Haggis day

GC
75

seillean a mhirdenibha,

Williamsburg 07/04/2008 23:52:16
The militia laws of the British Colonies in the 18th century required that that all free white males own a long gun and that they were to provide a militia for protection of the colonies. this eliminated the need and expense for a large standing army of British soldiers in the colonies to fight off the Spanish and the French and Indians. The militias were supposed to drill and practice. In other words, these were not private militias but basically a National Guard.
They were controlled by the royal government of each colony, just as the national Guard is controlled by each State today.

The requirement to own a gun implied the responsibility to use it in the colonies defense. It could be a sporting weapon of any sort, but the presence of militias was seen as essential by the British government of the 18th century.

The young United States did not want to maintain a large standing army either, so after the conclusion of the revolution, the government envisioned the continuation of the militia system. That is the source of the second amentment. Nowhere in it does it state that handguns are the right of every American citizen and it actually implies a responsibility far wider than "self" defense.

We a country whose legal system is based on common low, but our legal system seems not to look at the body of law that existed under the British crown, though it was the basis for everything that developed after independence.

For those fellow citizens who are about to jump on me with both feet--I own guns too. I grew up hunting in the South. I do not believe that the Conatitution gives me the right to own them unless they are part of the requirement to belong to a "wlll regulated militia"--the National Guard or Reserves (BTW I was a US Marine). I'm too old for that now.
76

seillean a mhirdenibha,

Williamsburg 07/04/2008 23:54:33
ps My apologies for the typos. I should have edited my comments.
77

57Nomad,

08/04/2008 00:01:56
#22 wmw

w said:

"Just remembered why I hate bloody Yanks."

You just remembered? Just now? WMW, is this happening a lot to you? You go along hating something or someone for years and then, poof!, it's like you never hated them at all, no memory, erased, obliterated. Then, from out of nowhere, pow! "Ah, ha!" you shout to yourself, "why, I just remembered something. I hate the Yanks. Seems to have slipped my mind for some time, but I remember now."

I fear the very cerebral neurons that accommodate the self-knowledge of Yank Hating in your brain are beginning to unravel at the synapses. It's called Alzheimer's disease. Sorry to say there's not much to be done. Practice your drooling? Whatever, go ahead a hate away. In couple of years you won't know what a Yank is.
78

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 08/04/2008 05:18:00
Hello Seillean from Williamsburg,

I commend you for your post, but allow me to point out a very glaring error in your thinking and facts:

You are completely forgetting the dependent clause, which phrase historically, in EVERY CASE that has been resolved by the Supreme Court of the USA, as meaning INDIVIDUAL American rights.

The clause of which I speak:
II Amendment

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Please note that key phrase: '..the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.'

This is the phrase that the Supreme Court of the United States has clearly, consistently, and repeatedly, defined the above phrase as meaning, IN EVERY AMENDMENT and the Clauses of each Amendment, as meaning INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS of each and every American.

Were your definition to be the legal definition, then NO American would have the right of free speech, the freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, etc., because such rights could only be held by the 'collective'; the states entoto as it were.

Please take the time to go to the Cornell Law School site and read the Amendments, so that you can see why I am saying what I am saying.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html

Cheers from the Rockies

79

Kenny A,

08/04/2008 05:41:33
Again I have been following this thread, I just cannot understand why people cannot understand guns kill. The GC fellow is correct it takes more balls to use a knife than to kill from a distance. you American folks are renowned for liberation, the rights of all how, about trying to extend that right to the poor sods who never see the bullets coming. I just cannot understand the gun culture and that unfortunatly is a fact. A gun is a tool not some extension of a macho culture.

Sad to say little boys with big toys, it took us Scottish types milenia to grow out of it, I expected better of you folks. If you want to see what happens when brainless sods get hold of weapons with little control, can I suggest Africa, South America and the good old US of A, because thats what you are being lumped with with, due to these fairly disgusting access to weapons rules that exist.

If respect is to be gained, bloody well get a grip, guns kills as do knives, axes, poison and bombs, does your constitution allow people to carry and use these, you are the experts. After all this carryon in the Gulf was to save and protect, closly followed of course by shock and awe.

I have visited America and sorry to say will never return with the exception of Alaska. My friends who I stayed with carried Guns because they felt they had no choice, think deep folks.

Sorry about this but I do feel strongly on this issue.
80

Conan,

Chile 08/04/2008 06:17:12
Enough talk.

Every British schoolboy from the 1950s (when education was still actual education) with even the very slightest recollection of US history will know that the entirety of the US Bill of Rights reflect INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, except for a few mentions of certain States' Rights.

The purpose of the Second Amendment was obviously to enshrine the idea that THE PEOPLE would be armed, and from THE PEOPLE alone the 'well regulated militia' would be drawn when required .... an armed body of MEN quite different and seperate from the Continental Army, or any other standing army of militia.

That is the Law of their Land - and it is a very good one - not like our (UK) cowardly apeasment to the social(ist) utopians and other similar scum.

But, all of that notwithstanding, the US has a process in place to change that if THE PEOPLE so choose. It is called a Constitutional Amendment. It requires a certain number of the States to ratify the change and its done - period.

Attempting to circumvent or nulify an existing Constitutional Amendment by special interest politics, lobying and/or by legal chikanery will only result in massive civil disobedience as now 'illegal' guns simply disappear into hiding until they are needed by THE PEOPLE when the times again arrives for them to reassert themselves.

Enough talk!
81

CombatVet68,

08/04/2008 06:22:08
#73 Galactic Cannibal

Once again you do err. Firstly, my comment did not mention when the US entered the war, for it was not relevant to my argument. However, if it were not for the ships and armaments which we shipped to England for those 2 plus years before we entered the fray in '41, it is unlikely that Britain would have survived. Thus the logical conclusion that their common language would have been that of their conquerors. Any way you cut the pie, it still comes out to be pie. Britain woulda lost..period...that is true fact,(truly factual) not supposition.

As for the reasons, when, how, why we entered the war I am confident that I have as much knowledge as you on the subject.
82

Conan,

Chile 08/04/2008 06:28:08
Kenny A - if you don't like the US; don't go there. Although, it is rather amusing that you place Alaska on your 'will still visit' list as you will have to get there via the 'lower '48' .... nes pas? Anyway, AK, of all places in the US, probably has more guns, and more very active users of guns, than any other State. You don't like guns? Fine. Don't own a gun. Put a sign up in front of your house that says .... 'no guns in here' and see what happens next. Maybe walk down some shady part of some major US city, even Anchorage or Juneau, some Saturday night/Sunday morning with a sign around your neck say ..... 'no guns on me' and see what happens. On your last point - the apology - its insincere - if you REALLY, REALLY felt so strongly about this you'd never again visit the US and you'd also not visit anywhere else where civilians are legally allowed to own guns .... which is just about everywhere in the 'free world'. Best advice for you ..... stay home. But, that won't work either becausae there are still guns in civilian hands in the UK. Dammit - there must be somewhere you can go where there are no civilians with guns, besides State functionaries and criminals. I got it ..... how about the DPRK (N. Korea), Cuba, China, Viet Nam, Sudan, Chad, Iran, Burma ..... come on, work with me Kenny .... there's got to be SOMEWHERE on this planet that will work for you? Bouvet Island? Cough Island? Rockall (you can visit Guga).
83

Gordon, Canonmills,

08/04/2008 08:46:24
Enough already of all the high-sounding gobbledygook about rights, constitutions and, of course, freedom (?).

Basically, it comes done to this: if the individuals who make up a society feel the need to be armed, there are only two possible explanations:

a) their society is chronically sick, or

b) the individual is a complete paranoid

Or, again, in the case of Stateside, perhaps both are true and interrelated.

(Conan would appear to be an excellent example of option b)
84

Kenny A,

08/04/2008 09:02:45
82 Conan

Agree with a lot you say, perhaps a surprise, but the Alaskans I spent my time with used guns for a purpose, country men, not big city people toting the hardware to look cool. I do not dislike Americans (Honest) but I find they are naive to the point of beyoing imbiciles on a couple of fronts. Guns bloody kill people in the wrong hands and sorry to say the constitution cannot guarentee that morons will not get their hands on them. As mentioned in earlier posts I spent most of my days as a soldier, Falklands first Gulf and a couple of other places so I think I know the damage that can be inflicted by weopons. I also used to own two guns when in Scotland but was seriously happy to hand them in when the law stated I should.

Now here is the nub of the question, if all people were law abiding would anyone need to own arms to protect themselves.

Its an issue you people have to live with on a daily basis, I just hope that your childern are not victims of an out of date but in fairness well meaning clause in your constitution that lets be honest thugs and the dread rednecks seem to take advantage of.

Over to you bud
85

Number 6,

Germany 08/04/2008 09:26:05
From the Chigago Sun Times :
North County Financial Corp is exchanging firearms for deposits, giving away rifles and shotguns in lieu of the inetrest that normally accompanies accounts.

Put as little as $869 in A 20 year certificate of deposit, and the Travers City based bank will hand over a Weatherby Inc Mark V synthetic rifle that lists for $779. Deposit more , and you have a choice of 6 Weatherby shotguns or a limited edition rifle .

The program has brought in millions of dollars of deposits from customers in every US state , said Rose Garvin, a North Country Bank and Trust manager and federal firearms license holder.

Of course, the Chigago Sun Times will now be denounced as a liberal rag, but the fact remains, you CAN walk into a bank in the US and receive a firearm as part of the deal. There's a lot of denouncers on this site that owe Moore an apology.

Anything else you would like to accuse him of, and how do you answer the fact that you were all so adamant that Moore was lying. Is the truth so hard to come by over there, or just too painful to face ?.
86

,

08/04/2008 10:31:32
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
87

Number 6,

Germany 08/04/2008 10:46:20
#86 A few examples from this compulsive liar please ?

It would seem he is telling the truth ref Gun availability or not ?
88

Carolyn 1,

08/04/2008 13:36:24
A few points:

The gun Moore received for opening a bank account is a deer rifle.

1. Most violent crime in America is in the inner cities, using a knife or handgun. The cities - Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Baltimore, Washington DC which account for this violence are 'black' inner-cities with gang, turf and drug problems that the US can't seem to resolve.
Violent crimes are not executed with a deer rifle.

2. Traverse City is in northern Michigan. (I briefly lived there) Its surrounded by rural countryside, is on a lake and very beautiful; it certainly has no problems with violence.
People hunt deer in the countryside and northern area near Canada.

3. The free gift of the deer rifle to Michael Moore was STAGED. It took a week to STAGE for the filming. The process at the bank is little different than if he was at a gun shop. Moore did not film that:
- First, ID. Identification is required and paperwork has to be completed, checked and approved before a gun can be bought/given.
-Second- Wait. There is a waiting period of one week. Moore DID WAIT the one week, but did not indicate that in his film.
-Third: Purchase. Bank customers picked up their rifle at a gun shop, but Moore, for the film, STAGED it and picked his up at the bank. THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT.
4. The bank reported that Moore staged the filming.

89

Carolyn 1,

08/04/2008 13:58:18
85 Number 6,Germany

I tried to source the first sentence of your comment and it cannot be sourced because it was never true except on Moore web site.

It's a blatant lie.

Go on and live, breathe and think in your conspiracy theory of history. As a German you should have learned not to believe everything in print; you should be smarter than allow yourself to be brainwashed.

Once again you've made a fool of yourself with your young stupidity.

A quote from Moore when asked about the truth in the film: "It's comedy."

90

Carolyn 1,

08/04/2008 14:11:05
(Moore has to look hard and long to find the idiots to enable the staging of these 'documentaries'.)

Here's something that IS TRUE.

http://securities.stanford.edu/1031/NCFC03-01/index.html

This is a copy of the class action suit against this bank. (by the way, the bank lost and was ordered to pay the people.)
the complaint:
...under the Exchange Act, by disseminating materially false and misleading statements and/or concealing material adverse facts concerning the financial condition and operations of the Company, with knowledge, or in reckless disregard, of the materially false and misleading character thereof. The complaint also alleges violations of Section 20 of the Exchange Act by the individual defendants, by reason of their control, at relevant times, of the Corporation. Among other things, the complaint is based upon allegations of deficiencies in the Company's policies and procedures for safe and sound operation, including its directorate and management personnel and practices, credit underwriting, credit administration, and policies regarding asset/liability management, liquidity, funds management and investments, and its compliance with all applicable laws and regulations, including Regulations O and U of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) Rules and Regulations, and the Michigan Banking Code of 1999.


>>>>>the deficiencies in the Company's policies and procedures for safe and sound operation<<<<<
91

mike - across the pond,

painful truths.... 08/04/2008 15:25:45
1) long guns... rifles/shotguns are RARELY used in anything resembling criminal activities... too unwieldly... and I believe you can own one of these in Scotland or Germany too...

2) Travers City... 260 miles from Detroit.... 320 miles from Chicago... each way... what person is going to drive 8-10 hours round trip TWICE (you would have to go up there ONCE to deposit the money... then AGAIN... a week later, to GET the weapon)

3) cost/benefit... THINK... the criminals you are worried about are not going to drive 1000 miles.... drop $800-1000 in a bank for 20 years for the opportunity of getting a weapon a week later... when they can just as easily drop $500 on a local thug for a HAND GUN....

again Moore is a slimy tard.... assuming that the tripe he spews is without motive is a little niave.... kinda like sole-sourcing your news from "Comedy central"... or "Fox"... or Sky-TV... or the BBC... and assuming you have the whole picture
92

Biker,

Ayr 08/04/2008 17:25:05
GC#63 personally I would prefer to have an efficient police forse for protection rather than run with the logic that if everyone has a gun, crime will be less.


Happy days my friend.
93

NSLSmith,

Seattle, WA 08/04/2008 17:45:01
# 64 -- jdships,
This discussion is about gun laws within the United States. You bringing up our foreign policy is as out of place as if I were to bring up our hand in WWII (our policy is neither pure good nor pure evil, take a look at the bigger picture, very few countries have benevolent foreign policy history and many are quick to forget their own follies).

The bottom line is that domestically we see ourselves and others and responsible for defending our fellow people. Don't try to read more into "stand up people."
94

Neanderthal75,

Rocky Mountains USA 09/04/2008 00:28:36
Hello Gordon, Bikyr, und die Nummer Sechs,

The fundamental problem all of you have, particularly Gordon and Bikyr, is that you two are SUBJECTS of a government (the Crown as it were), while we Americans are FREE CITIZENS of a nation.

You don't understand that, as you see what few rights you have left, come from OTHER HUMANS, so with each changing set of humans running your government, you rights increase or decrease, depending on the policies and politics of each government.

Our American System is predicated upon our rights coming from God, so that NO MAN or group of men, may take them away from us; because God gave them to us and no human authority has the power of or power greater, than God.

Pertaining to the issue of why we don't rely upon police to 'completely protect' us, allow me to point out that ANY police force in most democracies, are REACTIONARY by nature: that is to say, the police REACT to a call from a citizen about 'trouble', a crime being committed.

Please read the above again: the police arrive AFTER the crime has been committed in 90% of the cases, and the rest they arrive AT BEST, DURING the crime that is being committed.

Considering such crimes as rape, felony assault, knifings, shootings, burglaries, home break ins, etc., the police CANNOT provide AID during the event itself: thus, citizens MUST protect themselves from the vagaries of criminals, because the police CAN'T.

This is what none of you understand, or are willing to admit: that police forces are reactionary in nature: they cannot stop crimes BEFORE they are committed, and thus, they do NOT know where crimes are going to be committed (unless detective teams are on 'stake outs' against organized crime groups).

Straight forward logic people, sad that none of you seem to grasp the concept.

Cheers from the Rockies
95

NSLSmith,

Seattle, WA 09/04/2008 02:58:26
I appreciate the sentiment above, however, study of our constitutional rights and the Deceleration of Independence which set its stage reveal that our rights are predicated on the self evidence of equality among men (people) and our right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," (our nation is not built on a belief in or reverence for God, we were actually trying to get away from that). We are free, not because of any interaction with a deity, but because we enforce equality, whether it be among races, among ideas, or among religions (or the lack thereof). Regardless - much of the above is true, regardless of its religious overtone.
96

Conan,

Chile 10/04/2008 09:17:03
95 - have you actually rear the Declaration of Independence, The Bill of Rights, any of the Colony's Assemblies' various declarations and statements on the matter, or any of the Federalist Papers, or any of the memoirs and writings of the various leaders involved? More to the point - can you even read?

Your statement 'our nation is not built on a belief in or reverence for God, we were actually trying to get away from that' would appear to indicate that you are either totally ignorant or simply unable to understand the historical records .... and maybe both?
97

NSLSmith,

Seattle, WA 11/04/2008 18:59:21
#96: I can read a little, and although I’ve never "rear" the Declaration of Independence, I have read it. Thanks; your constructive comment is duly noted.
98

jr23,

florida usa 06/04/2009 06:26:22
#1 you are not a free man you are subject to the crown
#2 in uk you must attempt to flee if accosted you may not fight back if you can run away(sounds french)the criminal have the rights so it is easy to rob and steal
#3 some of those weapons that were destroyed were sent to save you from the nazi
#4 how many helpless people have been murdered by your kings?
#5 Many of the USA problems are caused by the slave trade that UK brought to our country and many of our citizens died to end the practice of slavery.
#6 opium war??? China was not too pleased with that one
#7 Japan was afraid to send troops into the us mainland because so many civilians were armed
we loose some good people because of bad but it is the price of freedom

 

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